Byzantine Pythium - hype/brainstorming thread

[Burnsaber]

For a very long time, I've had very special beef with MA Pythium. You see, Pythium is the closest thing to Byzantine in this game and I'm really into ancient Byzantine lore. But, MA Pythium has a lot of things that I dislike, which prevent me from really enjoying from playing with them:

1) It's really, really powerful. Way beyond the powercurve of nations I like to play.
2) I know that KO was trying to his own thing, but Hydras don't belong here. It's the second rome!
3) The absolutely random and no way explained extra gem income from capitol. It's a small thing, but from a design standpoint it just boggles me. Why pythium? Why have it as the *single* deviation from the norm? It does not help that it has been bugging me since Dom:PPP.
4) Those old mages, although really powerful, are really micro intensive and just annoying.

So what I'm going to do is to alter the basic Pythium.

How?


http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/picture.php?albumid=34&pictureid=423

Commanders
Imperial Alchemist -> Cap only, 1F1W (110% F/E/W), +1 research, 10% chance of starting with an affliction (alchemy is dangereous).
Ambassador -> Spy, nothing else special
Varangain Captain -> Cap only, very good stats, sailing, high leadership
Theurg Artisan -> Cap only, -1 research, 10 forgebonus, 1?1H 100%F/E/W/S/A. Those with fire are glassblowers, air is singer, earth is sculptor, astral is canthor, water are painters.
Divine Emperor -> Starting commander, not recruitable/summonable. S4H3, automatic communion master.

Units
Varangian Guard -> Northern mercenaries that have become a part of normal military with time. Cap only, good stats, especially high morale, forest survival.
Pyrote -> Cap only, expensive in resources, fire AoE melee attack, negative fire resistance.
Kataprakhtoi -> Noble cavarly, good stats, but are hampered by less than optimal equipment (no plate, only light lance, use maces instead of broadswords)
Verdanriotai -> Northern mercenaries that have become a part of normal military with time. Composite bows, waste/forest survival.

New Spells
-> H1 communion slave (note that this will not work on pure H1 priests, only those who have an actual magic pick -> this piece of data is from my Holy War modding days)
-> H2 communion master
-> F2W1 "Greek Fire" combat spell, likely a fireball that leaves a small "Fire Cloud" behind.
-> Awesome H5,6,7 and 8 combat spells
-> "Theosis", Conj level 7, 40 gems, W3S4 (the caster paints an icon so masterful that it allows him to contact the celestial plane and ask for the help of an archangel.)

The Archangels;
Note that these are the archangels of Orthodox Christian tradition, so they may differ from what you know. Statwise, all of them are close to regular Archangles, expect where otherwise stated

-Gabriel "Man of the Lord" -> Divine messenger and warrior S3A3H3, stealth, high mapmove, higher combat stats, wields a mirror of green jasper* on his left hand.
-Barachiel "Blessing of the Lord" -> Leader of all Guardian Angels and holds dominance over lightning, A4F2H3, lighting attacks, can summon "angels of the host", wields a white rose on his left hand*
-Uriel "Light of the Lord" -> F4A2H3, higher combat stats, extra holy fire attacks but only one hand slot since he always wields the orb of fire*
-Jegudiel "Glorifier of the Lord" -> Patron Saint of all labour and arts. S3E2F1H3, reinvigoration, forgebonus, high leadership, lower combat stats, wields a crown on his right hand* to represent the rewards for spiritual labour.
-Raphael "Healing of the Lord" -> Patron saint of medicine and sciences. S3N3H3, healer 100, reserachbonus, recuperation, regeneration, lower combat stats, wields a jar full of medicine in his left hand*
-Selaphiel "Prayer of the Lord" -> Patron saint of praying. S4F1A1w1E1H4, very high researchbonus, attack value 0, no melee attack, greatly lowered combat stats, domsummons angels of the host, automatic communion master.

-Michael -> He will be a unique combat summon from one of the holy 5-8 spells. No magic (since he would then just spam smite or something equally lame). Extremely good combat stats, wields a very powerful holy lance and can banish people to hell (like the artefact "Hell Sword")

* In classic orthodox iconography, this angel is often painted with that item. I might give the item a "dom3" function, depending if I come up with something awesome for it.

Changes to base Pythium
-> Starting commanders to Ambassador and Divine Emperor
-> Battle Vestal no longer cap only
-> Description edits
-> Starting gem income to: 1F 1A 1W 2S
-> Arch Theurgs will be multiheroes and only slightly old age, magic changed to S3 3? H3 (F/A/W -> linked random)
-> Theurgs - not old any more, magic changed to S2 2? H2 (F/A/W - linked randoms), gold cost increase
-> Theurg Acolytes get an additional 10% F/A/W random.
-> Following units no longer available;
Hydra, Hydra Hatchling, Hydra Tamer, Scout, Emerald Lord, Lizard Catapharact, Lizard Lord, Gladiators, the Master of Games multi-hero


Angel Summon Changes (will affect Marignon too)
Contact Harbringer (OLD, level 6, S4, 25 pearls) -> NEW: level 5, A2 S3, 27 air gems
Angelic Host (OLD, level 7, S5, 50 pearls) -> NEW: level 7, F2S4, 55 fire gems)
Others left as they are. This change is so that the player might occasionally *use* these spells. In vanilla it's just better so save up your gems for Angels of Fury or Seraphs.

Of course, if you like the basic Pythium this won't likely be your mod. What I'm aiming for here, is to bring a breath of fresh air into a power nation that has been played to death. Perhaps allowing for a option for those who want the glorious "second rome" instead of just endless Hydras.

[rdonj]

I like the idea of this mod, it is like a fusion of pythium and pure unadulterated AWESOME (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=43631). Sweet. Being another person who is not really into power nations, and has a certain fondness for byzantium (though not quite so much as the author), I am looking forward to this.

[BigDaddy]

I'm sorry, but I really like the Arch Theugs, and can't believe the old powerful communion priest have to go. I always thought that they were the most fitting thing for the nation. I wondered about the assassins and the hydras. I don't mind loosing the lizard cataphracts. Spies might be appropriate but obviously unnecessary. Certainly more appropriate than assassins.

Maybe its the power of the arch threurges that bothers you, rather than the flavor.

[Globu]

Sounds fantastic -- I look forward to seeing it!

[kennydicke]

I very much love the idea! I'm unfamiliar with Pythium, but had the same thoughts when I tried them.

Hit the nail on the head with the vikings. The Varyags of Miklagaard isn't just a good song, they were a potent force through much of their history! And the origin of the current day 'Swiss Guard.' Food for thought: in later years they hired from other tribes than the Swedes. The Rus *were* also a major factor for the Byzantines; if they hadn't of left, the Turkic cousins of the Mongols might not have conquered 'The City' so easily!

It seems that Pythium is like Byzantium mixed with Sarmatian/Scythian influences. BigDaddy may have a point... maybe a new nation, not a replacement, is warranted? Just a thought, I like your idea just fine Burnsaber.

Love the idea, and would like to offer any support or help I can!

[Fantomen]

When doing this mod, you should read "Röde Orm" by Frans G. Bengtson if you haven't already. It is a very nice viking story. Historically accurate and a substantial part of it also takes up the subject of vikings fighting for middle eastern powers.

No idea if you know swedish, but it is available in english as "the long ships (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Long_Ships)".

[Digress]

Some spies and assassins of various effectiveness would certainly add to byzantine flavour.

Maybe some corruptor/seducer type commander - the Byzantines certainly had a knack for getting neighbours to change their allegiances on a fairly regular basis.

[LDiCesare]

I think flamethrowers were only used in naval warfare, or maybe some siege, so having a unit for these in Dom seems a bit strange.
What about chariot racer heroes?
Having only wizard priests sounds quite thematic, though, with all the byzantine religious bickerings, many priests should be hired by Byzantine rulers.

[Burnsaber]

I'm sorry, but I really like the Arch Theugs, and can't believe the old powerful communion priest have to go. I always thought that they were the most fitting thing for the nation.


Well, we are not talking about communion priests here. We are talking about communion *mages*, no one communions them to boost their holy power, but I have a plan to fix that. I have to go to work soon, so I won't go into details yet.


Spies might be appropriate but obviously unnecessary. Certainly more appropriate than assassins.


Byzantine had a pretty cut-throat imperial court. Assasins and spies are certainly very appropiate.


Maybe its the power of the arch threurges that bothers you, rather than the flavor.

Well, obviously. I stated in the first post that I wanted to tone the nation down. Their ridicilious power combined with the ridicilious age just creates a micro hell as you keep them alive with the regen battle bug and forge dozens of shrouds.


It seems that Pythium is like Byzantium mixed with Sarmatian/Scythian influences. BigDaddy may have a point... maybe a new nation, not a replacement, is warranted?


Since I'm going to keep the infantry and most of the Theurg intact, it would be really bizarre and confusing if both the "vanilla" and "Byzantine" pythium were in the same game. Overwriting also allows me to save spell slots and avoid writing new units (which increases compactibility since I don't have to use new monster ID's). Also, less graphics work!

When doing this mod, you should read "Röde Orm" by Frans G. Bengtson if you haven't already. It is a very nice viking story. Historically accurate and a substantial part of it also takes up the subject of vikings fighting for middle eastern powers.

No idea if you know swedish, but it is available in english as "the long ships (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Long_Ships)".

I'll have to see if there is a copy at my local library. Thanks for the tip!

Some spies and assassins of various effectiveness would certainly add to byzantine flavour.

Maybe some corruptor/seducer type commander - the Byzantines certainly had a knack for getting neighbours to change their allegiances on a fairly regular basis.

Well, I was thinking of a Ambassodor/Diplomat style spy. It would be pretty rebundant to have more than one spy or assasin, since only the top one would be recruited (even if you chose to *not* recruit a mage, which is pretty rare).


I think flamethrowers were only used in naval warfare, or maybe some siege, so having a unit for these in Dom seems a bit strange.


Well, this is a fantasy game. I won't let historical accuracy be in the way of awesome. Besides it's not *that much* of stretch to assume that those cylinders would have been used in sieges and other land warfare applications.

I was thinking of a cap-only, heavily armored, high-resource cost infantry unit that can once throw a inaccurate blast of fire to a very close range and have a flaming melee attack with it.


What about chariot racer heroes?


Certainly a nice idea. I was thinking of replacing gladiators with chariots, but I'll see if it's necessary.

I'll have to warn everyone though that this nation won't be that historically accurate. More like a fanboyish wet dream of what the Ancient Byzantine was like. (It is pretty certain that my version will likely present as very goody-goody although the reality was vastly different).

[Squirrelloid]

digression: kennydicke, varyags have *nothing* to do with the swiss guard, who derived from the swiss pikemen mercenaries. Technically, the swiss guard is the last swiss mercenary troop in existence, although they are hardly mercenary now.

back on Topic: Burnsaber, this sounds really cool. I definitely support toning Pythium down, and I like the idea of flamethrowers =). I'd give them more than 1 shot so they have tactical uses rather than being a curiosity. Maybe make the sprite have 2 men (1 carrying the fuel supply!) and make the unit size 3. 3-5 shots seems reasonable. It would be sort of like recruitable fire drakes for range, but without the beefy hps.

[BigDaddy]

The Swiss Guard as in the Pope's army? That is the longest standing army still in existence, so, yes, not really mercenaries.

I think the army of the Roman empire may have stood longer, but I do not know. The Swiss Guard is certainly on of the longest standing armies to ever exist.

So, I suppose if you take that position into account those Emeral Guards which are one to one better than most countries best command unit is OK. Still, there is a balance problem to that... it follows through the serpent cataphract.

[rdonj]

I agree with squirrel, having one attack is probably not enough. It's really hard to make one, non-massable shot count. Something like 2 or 3 would be much more workable. I suppose it also depends on how expensive they are and how effective they are in melee... if they're something like principes with flamethrowers it might just barely be workable.

[Festin]

Theurgs are actually quite thematic for Byzantium-style nation. I always thought of them as of a fantasy parallel to the neoplatonic "theurgy" mysticism which was mainstream in Eastern Roman Empire in time of Julian the Apostate.

[Belac]

Flamethrowers could be units armed with an item that casts Burning Hands. They could be reasonable-cost, non-cap commanders, if that would make the programming easier.

[Squirrelloid]

The Swiss Guard as in the Pope's army? That is the longest standing army still in existence, so, yes, not really mercenaries.

Part of this is a shift in meaning of the term. The swiss mercenary companies wouldn't fight against the King of France and his armies, as a rule, because he was such a frequent user of swiss pike companies - indeed, some of them were in permanent french employ.

By the standards of the middle ages, anyone who fought for money was a mercenary. I assure you the swiss guard gets payed, and I assure you there is continuous history from the swiss mercenaries of the middle ages to the swiss guard in the vatican today. They are certainly derived from a mercenary company, and are arguably still technically mercenary. (What else would you call foreign nationals who perform military service for pay?)

[BigDaddy]

The Swiss Guard as in the Pope's army? That is the longest standing army still in existence, so, yes, not really mercenaries.

Part of this is a shift in meaning of the term. The swiss mercenary companies wouldn't fight against the King of France and his armies, as a rule, because he was such a frequent user of swiss pike companies - indeed, some of them were in permanent french employ.

By the standards of the middle ages, anyone who fought for money was a mercenary. I assure you the swiss guard gets payed, and I assure you there is continuous history from the swiss mercenaries of the middle ages to the swiss guard in the vatican today. They are certainly derived from a mercenary company, and are arguably still technically mercenary. (What else would you call foreign nationals who perform military service for pay?)

They are Catholic men who are serving the Pontiff, their earthly king.

[kennydicke]

digression: kennydicke, varyags have *nothing* to do with the swiss guard, who derived from the swiss pikemen mercenaries. Technically, the swiss guard is the last swiss mercenary troop in existence, although they are hardly mercenary now.

You are absolutely correct on all counts squirreloid; I merely meant the hiring of 'barbarian' mercenaries as a traditional carryover from when the seat of the church moved locations from the Eastern to Western Roman Empire. I meant no offense in making them out to be the same people.

Carry on. :)

[Digress]

Well, I was thinking of a Ambassodor/Diplomat style spy. It would be pretty rebundant to have more than one spy or assasin, since only the top one would be recruited (even if you chose to *not* recruit a mage, which is pretty rare).


I was thinking you could keep a generic assassin, gain a generic spy and a cap-only superstar - corruptor/seducer-type that might actually get recruited from time to time.

[BigDaddy]

Well, I was thinking of a Ambassodor/Diplomat style spy. It would be pretty rebundant to have more than one spy or assasin, since only the top one would be recruited (even if you chose to *not* recruit a mage, which is pretty rare).


I was thinking you could keep a generic assassin, gain a generic spy and a cap-only superstar - corruptor/seducer-type that might actually get recruited from time to time.

They already have 2 commanders that aren't mages that are plenty good to hire. The Serpent Catphract (maybe the assassin should be riding a powerful serpent that continues to fight to the death after its rider dies! You lose the unit but almost always win the fight). The Emerald Lord and the Serpent Lord are awesome units. They are quite possibly THE best mounted and infantry human commanders* in the game. They both have mad stats and the Emerald Lord's are silly high. With equipment he's 15(base 15)/17(base 14!) att/def. He has 15hp, 13str, and 17 protection. That's freakin outrageous. I hire this guy because he's so awesome. The Serpent Lord is almost as awesomely skilled, but rides a serpent that is really tough and keeps fighting (but you lose it after the battle), a light lance, and the benefits of being mounted. I already hire assassins to carry bows from time to time, but to give them yet another great commander unit is it getting silly, even w/o the Serpent Lord, the Emerald Lord still rocks hard.

*Yes, the lizard king does rock, but he needs equipment, and, while size 2, he isn't actually human.

[Burnsaber]

Okay, my current unit line up:

New Units
-> Rus Horse Archers (forest/waste survivals, fast, composite bows*)
-> Heavy Cavalry - Can't remember the accurate name right now
(somewhat along the power level on basic knights)
-> Varangian Guard - (forest survival, two-handed axes, elite stats, cap only)
-> Flamethrowers* - (see below, cap only)

* not historically accurate, but whatever

Old units that go away
Serpent Catapharacts
Gladiators
Hydra Hatchlings
Hydras

New Commanders & Changes

-> Ambassador - (Spy)
-> Varangian Guard Captain - (Sailing, very good stats, cap only)
-> Imperial Alchemist - F1W1 (110% F/W/E), minor researchbonus (1), cap only
-> Theurg Artisan (iconographers, sclulptors, architects, etc..) - 1? H1 (100% F/A/W/S), forgebonus 10, minor researchmalus (-1) (they like to create, not sit in front of books), cap only
-> Theurgs - not old any more, magic changed to S2 2? H2 (F/A/W - linked randoms achieved through #magicboost commands), gold cost increase
-> Arch Theurgs - multi-heroes, only slightly old, magic changed to S3 3? H3 (F/A/W -> linked randoms achieved through #magicboost commands)

Old commanders that go away
-> Serpent Lord
-> Hydra Tamer
-> Arch Theurgs
-> Scout

New Spells
-> Angel summons to competetive no-clam prices
-> H1 communion slave (note that this will not work on pure H1 priests, only those who have an actual magic pick -> this piece of data is from my Holy War modding days)
-> H2 communion master
-> F2W1 "Greek Fire" combat spell, likely a fireball that leaves a small "Fire Cloud" behind.
-> Awesome H5,6,7 and 8 combat spells


As for the flamethrowers, I've gotten a nifty idea. I'll sort of make like them like "reverse salamanders" - good fire AoE attack, but they would cost a lot of resources instead of gold and have massive negative fire resistance. I'll probably ditch the ranged attack, since it's unlikely that they could fire with those cylinders very far.


Theurgs are actually quite thematic for Byzantium-style nation. I always thought of them as of a fantasy parallel to the neoplatonic "theurgy" mysticism which was mainstream in Eastern Roman Empire in time of Julian the Apostate.

Yeah, they are. That's why I'm keeping them pretty much intact. Arch Theurgs, though, just are absolutely annoying because you have to recruit dozens of them (they are just so good) and then micro to keep them alive. Old age is not a balancing factor, it's just a pain in the butt.

I'm going to make Arch Theurgs multi-heroes and slighly reduce the magical power of Theurgs (but make them not old). Then I'll give the Byzantium Pythium a bunch of national holy spells (a H5 spell, a H6 spell, H7 spell and a ridicilious H8 spell). It's pretty obvious that those spells can only be really reached through communion and PoS -> You have priestly communions.


Well, I was thinking of a Ambassodor/Diplomat style spy. It would be pretty rebundant to have more than one spy or assasin, since only the top one would be recruited (even if you chose to *not* recruit a mage, which is pretty rare).


I was thinking you could keep a generic assassin, gain a generic spy and a cap-only superstar - corruptor/seducer-type that might actually get recruited from time to time.

Well, the problem is that we don't have that many tools to make seductors/corruptor type units. Seduce is clearly only meant for units that are so lustfull and beautiful that they can make someone switch sides (not appropiate for a dude in a robe). The corruption that one of the Lords of Hell has is clearly also out of the question for a recruitable, besides I can't give it to a unit without also giving the #demon tag.

[rdonj]

They already have 2 commanders that aren't mages that are plenty good to hire. The Serpent Catphract (maybe the assassin should be riding a powerful serpent that continues to fight to the death after its rider dies! You lose the unit but almost always win the fight). The Emerald Lord and the Serpent Lord are awesome units. They are quite possibly THE best mounted and infantry human commanders* in the game. They both have mad stats and the Emerald Lord's are silly high. With equipment he's 15(base 15)/17(base 14!) att/def. He has 15hp, 13str, and 17 protection. That's freakin outrageous.

You know what else is outrageous? The emerald lord's encumbrance. If he has to fight for more than 3 rounds in melee, he is begging to be killed due to crits. You can't use this guy as a thug without giving him gear to try to compensate for the insane encumbrance. And, of course, you have to give up hiring a mage to hire this guy who is functionally no better than a normal emerald guard (unkitted).


Burnsaber - Sounds good :) I'm not sure that theurgs need to cost more if you're making them weaker, but I'm pretty ambivalent on that issue. So they'll keep battle vestals as their sacred?

[Burnsaber]

Burnsaber - Sounds good :) I'm not sure that theurgs need to cost more if you're making them weaker, but I'm pretty ambivalent on that issue.


Well, my new randoms give them good access to "Astral Fires", so they'll be better battlemages than in vanilla. Hence, appropiate costing.


So they'll keep battle vestals as their sacred?


Yeah. They're not really "byzantine" but are a cool unit (gameplay-wise) and I really like the conflict between getting a bless for a cap-only light infantry sacred and angel SC's. They've been overshadowed by Hydras since PPP, perhaps now they can see some use.

[rdonj]

Oh, looking at them you actually did make them MUCH better. Yeah, the price hike is definitely warranted.

I'm actually not sure how much different a bless would be for angel SCs and battle vestals. Pythium has solid units to absorb missile fire, and one of the best blesses for battle vestals would be w9... which certainly angels wouldn't mind either. Maybe add on an e4+ bless for the angels and theurgs. Still, I don't think that's a problem, I for one certainly haven't seen battle vestals being used much in the past.

[Squirrelloid]

If you want to see battle vestals used, they have to not be cap only. They're too weak as a unit to make blessing them worthwhile when you can only hire from one fort each turn. Like flagellants, this is a sacred that would need to be used in truly massive numbers to make a blessing sensible. I, for one, will gladly use whatever the principes equivalent is instead of BVs to save the pretender design points with the way things are now.

Basically, its not that hydrae kept BVs from being used, its that they're a cheap disposable sacred which isn't capable of being hired in numbers suitable for 'cheap and disposable' to be an advantage.

[rdonj]

You wouldn't even go with a blessing aimed at angels or theurgs and use them as a side unit if the blessing happens to be useful? They're cheap and not very resource-intensive, so it's not too hard to justify buying them.

[Squirrelloid]

Re: proposed mage changes

I dunno, that'll make Pythium's mages quite weak for MA. S2X2H2 as recruit anywhere is decent, but then there's no capital-only mage for heavier mage power, and that's a pretty weak mage as your top tier mage.

And of course, moving arch-theurges to being multiheroes means you're dependent on Lk scales, may or may not get any year 1, 2, or even 3 or later, and need to hope you only get arch-theurges. And of course, old age is even more annoying because if you *do* lose one to disease you can't replace him.

[Squirrelloid]

You wouldn't even go with a blessing aimed at angels or theurgs and use them as a side unit if the blessing happens to be useful? They're cheap and not very resource-intensive, so it's not too hard to justify buying them.

yeah, but we're looking at an E4+N4+ blessing, which isn't useful for BVs at all.

[BigDaddy]

They already have 2 commanders that aren't mages that are plenty good to hire. The Serpent Catphract (maybe the assassin should be riding a powerful serpent that continues to fight to the death after its rider dies! You lose the unit but almost always win the fight). The Emerald Lord and the Serpent Lord are awesome units. They are quite possibly THE best mounted and infantry human commanders* in the game. They both have mad stats and the Emerald Lord's are silly high. With equipment he's 15(base 15)/17(base 14!) att/def. He has 15hp, 13str, and 17 protection. That's freakin outrageous.

You know what else is outrageous? The emerald lord's encumbrance. If he has to fight for more than 3 rounds in melee, he is begging to be killed due to crits. You can't use this guy as a thug without giving him gear to try to compensate for the insane encumbrance. And, of course, you have to give up hiring a mage to hire this guy who is functionally no better than a normal emerald guard (unkitted).


Burnsaber - Sounds good :) I'm not sure that theurgs need to cost more if you're making them weaker, but I'm pretty ambivalent on that issue. So they'll keep battle vestals as their sacred?

You're right, they have a weakness, OMG... If you can't spare the nature gems, go with serpent lord. At least he doesn't have trouble hit and defending.

Battle Vestals are a joke stategically. They're fine thematically good, although I don't see why they aren't recruitable everywhere, except that Pythium really doesn't need a 'bless strategy...' other than a nice one for mages.

[rdonj]

*Yes, the lizard king does rock, but he needs equipment, and, while size 2, he isn't actually human.

I took this to be referring to something that is not an emerald lord, and took your overall statement to imply that he could be used without gear. What I was saying, was that there was no way emerald lords could be used without gear. If we are in agreement that they need gear to be useful, then I have no problem with what you said.

[Burnsaber]

I dunno, that'll make Pythium's mages quite weak for MA. S2X2H2 as recruit anywhere is decent, but then there's no capital-only mage for heavier mage power, and that's a pretty weak mage as your top tier mage.


Well, I sort of managed to leave out one very important note. There will be a new angel summon for Pythium only, that will summon up named Archangles with more diverse paths (Raphael "Healing of God" with S/N, Gabriel with high S, Uriel with intense fire and so forth). Sort of like "Summon Spenta" for Caelum, except perfactly castable by nationals.

I was also thinking of "twidling" with the angel summons. It's pretty stupid that they all use astral pearls. This particularly quarantiees that they players are only going to use the strongest one. This will affect Marignon too, but IIRC they could use the small boost that this will provide. Harbringer could easily be a A/S summon and Angelic Host be an F/S summon. (Also, it would make sense for Marignon to be better at summoning Fiery smiting archangels than the more "artistic" harbringers, since they have that "heavenly wrath/ inquisition" thing going on)


And of course, moving arch-theurges to being multiheroes means you're dependent on Lk scales, may or may not get any year 1, 2, or even 3 or later, and need to hope you only get arch-theurges. And of course, old age is even more annoying because if you *do* lose one to disease you can't replace him.


Well, the new pythium won't be so desperate for arch-theurgs as the old one (besides, toning down the power is one of the design principles). There won't be any need to desperately make them happen. The only problem I could see with them having old age is if you get S3 F3 with highly reduced lifespan and very heavy old age, but I could just make them not old (they are healthy with the aid of the holy spirit or something).

If you want to see battle vestals used, they have to not be cap only. They're too weak as a unit to make blessing them worthwhile when you can only hire from one fort each turn. Like flagellants, this is a sacred that would need to be used in truly massive numbers to make a blessing sensible. I, for one, will gladly use whatever the principes equivalent is instead of BVs to save the pretender design points with the way things are now.

Basically, its not that hydrae kept BVs from being used, its that they're a cheap disposable sacred which isn't capable of being hired in numbers suitable for 'cheap and disposable' to be an advantage.

Hmm. True. I'll probably make them non-cap, since I already have two units that will be cap-only. Three would be just stupid.

[BigDaddy]

Hmm. True. I'll probably make them non-cap, since I already have two units that will be cap-only. Three would be just stupid.

What? Pft... lol...

I agree, but your reasoning (apparent) is humorous.

[Swan]

i've not read the 4 pages of this topic, but what about adding some ship summons in construction?
aquatic unit, high upkeep, gluttony(you have to feed the sailors), fire vulnerability.
they can have some diversification, like a heavy one for battles, a "commerce" one which brings you money and/or supply.

[elmokki]

As the battles in Dominions are fought over land or under water I personally would find any sort of sailing ships mostly hillarious.

That actually just gave me a new nation idea though. Drowned sailors being reanimated by ancient evil. The actual drowned ones would be amphibians, but there'd also be a potential for huge masses of poor amphibian standard undead with more scimitars "newly drowned". A sunken magically moving ship would be cool as hell, but I don't really know if you can make it big enough and if I can actually draw a decent looking sprite for one.

For land castles they'd have "shoredrowned" poor amphibians to recruit too. Some of them might be better armored, ie knights and heavy infantry who have fallen to rivers in the middle of battles etc.

[Belac]

One other thing about Pythium that amuses and slightly bugs me is that LA Pythium's mythical sources are earlier in history than MA Pythium. All the mystery cults are more reminiscent of the Eastern Roman Empire circa AD 1, while the powerful Theurgocracy is reminiscent of the Byzantines.

[Burnsaber]

I'm working on the mod. Just yesterday I made the graphics for 6 units (no preview though, I'm going to get all of them done before I show them off). Now I only need graphics for Theurg Artisans, Divine Emperor and the seven Archangels (Michael is going to be tough thought, his graphic will take a while since he needs armor and no dom3 angels have that, so I need to draw it myself).

@Squirrel

Sorry, it really took me a while to get at what you were going after. Yeah, S2F2A2W2E1 is not that great magic access for forging and so forth, especially because you don't get any air/fire boosters and no access to Crystal Coin. I think I'm going solve this by changing their starting commander to "Divine Emperor" with S4H3 that can get you RoS and RoW with only Crystal Cap, so that you don't need to force S and E on your pretender.


As the battles in Dominions are fought over land or under water I personally would find any sort of sailing ships mostly hillarious.


Agree. Ships would just be so out of place and dom3 is no place for them.

One other thing about Pythium that amuses and slightly bugs me is that LA Pythium's mythical sources are earlier in history than MA Pythium. All the mystery cults are more reminiscent of the Eastern Roman Empire circa AD 1, while the powerful Theurgocracy is reminiscent of the Byzantines.

Yeah, I noticed that too, but it really doesn't bother me. I think of it as an "alternate" explanation on why Byzantine crumbled. Instead of gradual decline of military power, there was gradual decline in faith for them in the Dom3verse. (not that my Pythium will make any sense to in the context of the vanilla LA pythium, but whatever).

[Burnsaber]

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/picture.php?albumid=34&pictureid=423

Commanders
Imperial Alchemist -> Cap only, 1F1W (110% F/E/W), +1 research, 10% chance of starting with an affliction (alchemy is dangereous).
Ambassador -> Spy, nothing else special
Varangain Captain -> Cap only, very good stats, sailing, high leadership
Theurg Artisan -> Cap only, -1 research, 10 forgebonus, 1?1H 100%F/E/W/S/A. Those with fire are glassblowers, air is singer, earth is sculptor, astral is canthor, water are painters.
Divine Emperor -> Starting commander, not recruitable/summonable. S4H3, automatic communion master.

Units
Varangian Guard -> Northern mercenaries that have become a part of normal military with time. Cap only, good stats, especially high morale, forest survival.
Pyrote -> Cap only, expensive in resources, fire AoE melee attack, negative fire resistance.
Kataprakhtoi -> Noble cavarly, good stats, but are hampered by less than optimal equipment (no plate, only light lance, use maces instead of broadswords)
Verdanriotai -> Northern mercenaries that have become a part of normal military with time. Composite bows, waste/forest survival.

New Spells
-> H1 communion slave (note that this will not work on pure H1 priests, only those who have an actual magic pick -> this piece of data is from my Holy War modding days)
-> H2 communion master
-> F2W1 "Greek Fire" combat spell, likely a fireball that leaves a small "Fire Cloud" behind.
-> Awesome H5,6,7 and 8 combat spells
-> "Theosis", Conj level 7, 40 gems, W3S4 (the caster paints an icon so masterful that it allows him to contact the celestial plane and ask for the help of an archangel.)

The Archangels;
Note that these are the archangels of Orthodox Christian tradition, so they may differ from what you know. Statwise, all of them are close to regular Archangles, expect where otherwise stated

-Gabriel "Man of the Lord" -> Divine messenger and warrior S3A3H3, stealth, high mapmove, higher combat stats, wields a mirror of green jasper* on his left hand.
-Barachiel "Blessing of the Lord" -> Leader of all Guardian Angels and holds dominance over lightning, A4F2H3, lighting attacks, can summon "angels of the host", wields a white rose on his left hand*
-Uriel "Light of the Lord" -> F4A2H3, higher combat stats, extra holy fire attacks but only one hand slot since he always wields the orb of fire*
-Jegudiel "Glorifier of the Lord" -> Patron Saint of all labour and arts. S3E2F1H3, reinvigoration, forgebonus, high leadership, lower combat stats, wields a crown on his right hand* to represent the rewards for spiritual labour.
-Raphael "Healing of the Lord" -> Patron saint of medicine and sciences. S3N3H3, healer 100, reserachbonus, recuperation, regeneration, lower combat stats, wields a jar full of medicine in his left hand*
-Selaphiel "Prayer of the Lord" -> Patron saint of praying. S4F1A1w1E1H4, very high researchbonus, attack value 0, no melee attack, greatly lowered combat stats, domsummons angels of the host, automatic communion master.

-Michael -> He will be a unique combat summon from one of the holy 5-8 spells. No magic (since he would then just spam smite or something equally lame). Extremely good combat stats, wields a very powerful holy lance and can banish people to hell (like the artefact "Hell Sword")

* In classic orthodox iconography, this angel is often painted with that item. I might give the item a "dom3" function, depending if I come up with something awesome for it.

Changes to base Pythium
-> Starting commanders to Ambassador and Divine Emperor
-> Battle Vestal no longer cap only
-> Description edits
-> Starting gem income to: 1F 1A 1W 2S
-> Arch Theurgs will be multiheroes and only slightly old age, magic changed to S3 3? H3 (F/A/W -> linked random)
-> Theurgs - not old any more, magic changed to S2 2? H2 (F/A/W - linked randoms), gold cost increase
-> Theurg Acolytes get an additional 10% F/A/W random.
-> Following units no longer available;
Hydra, Hydra Hatchling, Hydra Tamer, Scout, Emerald Lord, Lizard Catapharact, Lizard Lord, Gladiators, the Master of Games multi-hero


Angel Summon Changes (will affect Marignon too)
Contact Harbringer (OLD, level 6, S4, 25 pearls) -> NEW: level 5, A2 S3, 27 air gems
Angelic Host (OLD, level 7, S5, 50 pearls) -> NEW: level 7, F2S4, 55 fire gems)
Others left as they are. This change is so that the player might occasionally *use* these spells. In vanilla it's just better so save up your gems for Angels of Fury or Seraphs.

[Belac]

The Green Jasper mirror could have a 'halt sacred' effect on any enemy sacred that attacked the wielder. That would be kind of thematic.

It would also be interesting if the Divine Emperor was immortal but had a chance to get Lost in Time and Space, representing how there was always an Emperor, but sometimes he was imprisoned/exiled/killed and eventually replaced by another one.

[BigDaddy]

25% of alchemists will have water and fire. Making this THE acid nation. So, we have early game legionaires, mid game acid casters, and late game angel summons.

[Trumanator]

Umm, are you planning on anyone recruiting varangian captains? cuz its not gonna happen. Also, kataphraktoi were absolutely covered in armor, it makes no sense for them to have crappy prot in-game.

[BigDaddy]

They might hire one (varangian captains) for an initial sailing adventure.

And you're saying the cavalry should have heavy armor. Ussually need some pretty high encumbrance to make a nerf comparable.

[Trumanator]

nothing wrong with having good heavy cavs, they don't need a special nerf. Res cost alone ensures that you don't see a great deal of knights/heavy cavs usually.

[Burnsaber]

Also, kataphraktoi were absolutely covered in armor, it makes no sense for them to have crappy prot in-game.

nothing wrong with having good heavy cavs, they don't need a special nerf. Res cost alone ensures that you don't see a great deal of knights/heavy cavs usually.

They will be covered in armor, it just won't be full plate. The poorer armor* is supposed to reflect how byzantine heavy cavalry was a bit lagging behind a bit with their western Europe counterparts (in this context, Knights of MA Man). You should read the entry like this: "They will have good stats, but will be brought down to the right power level** with sub-optimal equipment".

*Full chain instead of full plate is what -3 prot? Also, it means decreased resourcecost
** About on level with MA Man Knights

Umm, are you planning on anyone recruiting varangian captains?

Not really, they are just there for added flavour. They have a small niche with sailing and perhaps uber-desperate "anti-thug" capacity, but that's about it.

[Jack_Trowell]

Look promising, I can't wait to try this mod for my next single player game.

(hopefully we will have a first version released soon ? ;))

[Burnsaber]

One more thing about the katphraktoi armor is to tie it to the EA Ermor cavalry and the orginal empire that this is supposed to be a spinoff from


Look promising, I can't wait to try this mod for my next single player game.

(hopefully we will have a first version released soon ? ;))

It will take a while, but I can promise that the first release will be up within 3 weeks.

[Burnsaber]

Working on the mod. Got the archangel summon to work, behold the results:

http://xs.to/image-0EB3_4B8ED785.jpg


As for the other news, here are my current plans on the national holy spells, all of will be modded to be techically "self buffing" spells, so if a communion master casts the spell, it will be casted by all slaves too:

H5: "Heavenly Power" -> Caster gets "Summon Airpower", "Summon Waterpower" and "Summon Firepower" - effects and the "Earth Might" (AoE 5 str boost)spell is casted centered on the caster.

H6: "Heavenly Protection" -> Caster gets stoneskin and improved mr. "Battle Fortune" (AoE 5 luck) spell is casted centered on the caster.

H7: "The Seventh" -> Casts the "Demon Cleansing" BF enchantment and summons Michael, the seventh and the most glorious Archangel.

H8: "Heavenly Shield" -> Caster gets resistances to all elements and Astral + Fire Shield. Also summons one Guardian Angel (a'k'a Angel of the Host)

[Stavis_L]

Working on the mod. Got the archangel summon to work, behold the results:


Excellent! :up:

I'm curious - how did you get a "one spell summons a random member of a small collection of unique entities" effect to work? Or are you just using a separate summoning spell for each archangel? Perhaps you modified the Lords of Civilization spell from EA Hinnom and then overwrote the Grigori units?

Please tell!

[rdonj]

From what I heard on IRC, he was indeed planning on using the Lords of Civilization spell. It sounds as though he has succeeded.

[Burnsaber]

Perhaps you modified the Lords of Civilization spell from EA Hinnom and then overwrote the Grigori units?

Please tell!

You guessed correctly, that is exactly what I did. The Lord of Civilization spell was just perfect for this purpose. It only bothers one nation from different era (that doesn't even actually *need* the spell) and gives 6 unique slots. I'm also going to use project as an exercise in mod slot preservation, it is my intention to use as few modding slots as possible. At the moment, it seems that this mod will use 0 unit slots, ~5 spell slots, 3 weapon slots and 1 armor slot. That's about it, really.

As for the Angel I showed in the pic, I know that there are some typoes in the description (and they have been fixed), I just noticed after taking the screenie and coudn't be bothered to take a new one. Also, that whole "his brother was Ezekiel" isn't real Orthodox canon, I just made up to make it fit better in Dom3context. There is some base for it though. Sometimes this archangel, "Barachiel" is confused with "Baraqiel" (meaning "Lightning of God"), who was one of the Grigori mentioned in the Book of Enoch. One unfortunate thing about the overwrites is that he can never face his brother in-game, which would be pretty epic even if extremely unlikely (since he is actually overwriting him).

[Kristoffer O]

Seems like a nice mod.

I like Pythium, but I also like the Byzantine Empire a lot, probably more than I like Pythium. Since the first iteration of Pythium I have been bothered by stuff. The lack of Varanginians is one such bother.

Mods are nice as they lets you have the cake and eat it. I think I will eat this cake :) (if I start a dom3 game in the forseeable future).

[Trumanator]

A KO post! :shock: Does this mean that the mysterious project is near completion?

[Burnsaber]

It's KO. Dear lord. Believe me, I'm just trying to prevent fangasming all over the place.

*Deep Breath*


I like Pythium


Yeah, me sort of too. I can really see that you tried to do your own thing with the Hydras and stuff, but you know, my fandom of the Byzantine Empire knows no bounds and it just didn't give me the "mood" I was looking for. Many people seem to enjoy the Pythium with the Hydras and I sort of like LA Pyth because it sort of completely does its own thing without reminding me that much of Byzantine.


but I also like the Byzantine Empire a lot, probably more than I like Pythium. Since the first iteration of Pythium I have been bothered by stuff. The lack of Varanginians is one such bother.


Yeah. My teacher of orthodox religion in school always told us stories about how beautiful and wonderful Hagia Sophia was and also he mentioned Byzantium. I sort took intrest in the issue and did some basic research. Once I learned that they had Vikings* in there, I was simply sold.

*It's hard to get more awesome that vikings.


Mods are nice as they lets you have the cake and eat it. I think I will eat this cake :) (if I start a dom3 game in the forseeable future).

Yeah, mods are nice and modding is really quite fun too. Big thanks to you for making so many angels sprites that I was able to use them to frankenstein my own set :D, it was a big block for me that prevented me from going to complete this mod idea for a long time. My local church has this absolutely gorgeous icon of Michael slaying a snake with a spear that simply struck me with awe when I was a kid. Since the first time I summoned angels in Dom:PPP, I've wanted to see him (and the other archangels) in Dom3 context.

After this I just need to do Thor, Hel and Loki to bring my childhood "heroes" (so to speak, I was really into nordic mytheology too) into dom3.

And now for a progress report:

-> Units are done, but they lack descriptions

-> I'm still trying to do the holy communion spells. Ran into some trouble with the "#nextspells affecting slaves too" mechanic. Apparently only some #effect valued #nextspells get casted by slaves too and buffing spells are not affected by this. I'll just replace the orginal idea of each slave getting a small area "Earth Might" and now the communion master just gets one big "Strenght of Giants" around him instead.

-> About the greek fire thrower unit ("Pyrote"): I changed their function slightly. Their weapon is slighty worse than Salamander attack, but it has AoE 2, which makes absolutely brutal versus infantry. however, since the unit itself is highly vulnerable to fire, they occasionally manage to hit themselves with their flame throwers. Just this sort of new balancing factor that is sort of thematical and unique.

[Jack_Trowell]

Hello KO, and thanks for the new Patch ! :D

[Burnsaber]

NOT DEAD!

I just have one more spell to do and the mod is done after that*. Sorry for the delay, I had to make a couple new heroes and decided to replace the pretty much useless "Triarus" unit with a new legionary composite archer called "Akritoi".

Anyways, I can probably release this thing in the weekend.

*There will be some playtesting done before the release of course.