Defender NOT Going First in v1.49 Strategic Combat

[Aristoi]

I have a game where the defender of the warp point has clearly not gone first. This is a v1.49 game, played in simultaneous mode.

Is there any situation now where the attacker will go first in this patch? Or is this a bug?

[Aristoi]

Has no one seen this at all? I'd think it would be quite a bug if it really exists.

[PsychoTechFreak]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aristoi:
Has no one seen this at all? I'd think it would be quite a bug if it really exists.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Space Empires IV
Patch 7

Version 1.47:

1. Changed - Combat has been changed such that order of player's movement is random. In addition, defenders will be placed at the front of the player list so that they get to move first.

I have not seen any difference so far. I still get the first move always.

[Mephisto]

It seems to be still a problem. I have reported it to Aaron.

[Commander G2]

The fact that combat movement order is not fixed is very disappointing. It really makes multi-player games unbalanced. Hopefully, they can patch this item quickly instead of making us wait 3 months again!

[gravey101]

I ran a simple test with 2 human-controlled empires in a regular game and it appeared to me that the defender (regardless of player order) was going first on warp point battles. I ran the same test under 1.41 and the higher player on the list would go first. Am I missing something ?

[Mephisto]

It seems only to be a problem in simultaneous games.

[Spoo]

Where the games this was observed in updated from 1.41? Maybe turn order in these games is already set.

------------------
Assume you have a 1kg squirrel
E=mc^2
E=1kg(3x10^8m/s)^2=9x10^16J
which, if I'm not mistaken, is equivilent to roughly a 50 megaton nuclear bomb.
Fear the squirrel.

[gravey101]

argh. This is a _such_ a painful error. I had based a couple of recent strategies in my PBW games on this being fixed. Back to the drawing board I guess. Any response from MM yet ?

[PsychoTechFreak]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by [K126]Mephisto:
It seems only to be a problem in simultaneous games.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Also in not simultaneous games, single human player.

Spoo
Sergeant posted 06 November 2001 22:19

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Where the games this was observed in updated from 1.41? Maybe turn order in these games is already set.

New game started after upgrade.

[Aub]

How bad is it?

It is that we still have the old "first player goes first", or is it random now, or is it "defender goes first most of the time"?

If it has at least been fixed to "random" then, well, at least it's fair http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif

But if the situation has net been improved at all and it's still "first player goes first", then, uh, I think Shrapnel should wait for the next patch before printing those new CDs... http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif

[gravey101]

I wonder if random might actually be better? As you say at least it's fair, and it might help break some of those warp point stalemates and make the early/middle game a little less defence-oriented?

[Deathstalker]

I can confirm this bug.

Sim-move play, New game not upgraded one, I am player 7 of 8, the Darloks are 1st player in movement. They come tru a warp point into my system, my fleet is on the other side. They got first move and first firing of weapons. They had one ship, I had 12.

Damn, I guess this means that PBW game I am the 8th player of 8th means I am toast http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif

[Puke]

well, it means that you have to defend wormholes from the hostile side rather than the friendly one..

[dogscoff]

Another confirmation: I'm playing a vs AI game and I always go first in combat because I am player 1, no matter who is defending. The game was started since patching to 1.49.

------------------
SE4 Code:
L GdY $ Fr- C- Sd T!+ Sf-- Tcp-- A% M&gt;M+ MpD! RV Pw Fq+ Nd- Rp+ G-
/SE4 Code
Go to my meagre SEIV pages (http://www.sandman43.fsnet.co.uk/se4main.htm) to generate your own code.

[PsychoTechFreak]

Today I have seen the AI taking the first turn. Definetely (twice). I am player 1, AI is 2 to 10, tactical combat. Both incedents have happened when I attacked AI planets. But I still have not observed this with close WP battles.

[Aub]

So -- does anyone know when we should expect the fix? I think everyone agreed that fixing this is essential for multiplayer (PBW, PBEM, ...)

Beta testers, are you testing the next patch already?

[Rusty_Nail]

I don't quite understand the problem about who moves first. Certainly it doesn't matter in tactical combat. And in simulations of strategic combat I notice that the distance between the two ships is fairly random and roughly 58-65 spaces. So it doesn't matter here either, statistically speaking. That leaves simultaneous mode. If the initial distance is still random and fairly large as I always assumed it was, then it doesn't matter here either. I notice that SOMETIMES a combat replay of a warp point combat places the ships within shooting distance on first move, but not always. I have never seen this in a normal sector replay. In this special warp case it would matter who shoots first. Agreed. But how often is this the case? And would the simplest solution not be to avoid the fleets being too close, i.e. use large random distances as in turned-based strategic combat and normal sector simultaneous combat? Why are warp battles treated differently from normal sectors anyway? I am probably misunderstanding something, so please explain.

[Aub]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by rusty nail:
I don't quite understand the problem about who moves first. Certainly it doesn't matter in tactical combat.
...
I notice that SOMETIMES a combat replay of a warp point combat places the ships within shooting distance on first move, but not always. <hr></blockquote>

Rusty,

in warp point battles, the ships are almost always placed so close that whoever moves first can shoot right away or move and then shoot. This is always true if one fleet has just gone through a warp point.

When two huge fleets meet this way (a major attack force meets the defense), the first fleet to shoot can inflict a lot of damage, leaving the second guy with less guns even before they can do anything about it. The guy with a bigger player number is always at a disadvantage, and since this is a very common situation towards the endgame, naturally it is a concern.

Just to clarify: yes we are talking wormhole battles. They are very common and people always start close to each other without suffucient randomization.

Aub

[ 26 November 2001: Message edited by: Aub ]</p>

[PsychoTechFreak]

I had one !!! The enemy has had the first shot at a WP.

I think there is maybe a problem with the factor for this chance. I guess 0.5 per cent or 5 per cent in maximum than a 50 % chance. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif