TDM-ModPack 2.00 BETA

[Mephisto]

Dear all,
here is the new TDM-ModPack Version 2.0:
This is a BETA Version. As you may know, it is planned to put the TDM-ModPack on the new charge of SE4-CDs. Therefore we want to make absolutely sure that no bug slips in and is burned on the Master CD. That's were you come in - yes, you! - don't hide! We need you to report every single bug, any issues, any play balance problems you find back to us by posting here or mailing me at heavyload@gmx.de.

Ok, here we go:

TDM-ModPack 2.00
November 06, 2001

For use with Space Empires IV Version 1.49 only.


INTRODUCTION
============

First - many thanks to the folks at Malfador Machinations ("MM") and Shrapnel Games for their continued support and communication with the gaming community. Since MM is dedicated to releasing a number of future patches, this "Mod" pack does not contain any modified tech trees, new components or facilities, just tweaks to get the most of the current Version of SE4.


Installing the ModPack
======================

(1) Unzip this file using the "All Files," "Overwrite Files" and "Use Folder Names" options (i.e. the default settings for winzip). This will place all the new files in the appropriate subdirectories under the new "ModPack" folder.

(2) That's it! Since the authors are constantly "tweaking" their races, make sure to report any bugs or other feedback on the Shrapnel Games Board.


Un-Installing the TDM-ModPack, 1. Method
========================================

(1) Copy the "original Path.txt" from the TDM-ModPack folder to your Space Empires IV folder.

(2) Delete the "Path.txt" in your Space Empire IV folder.

(3) Rename the "Original Path.txt" now located in the Space Empire IV folder to "Path.txt".

(4) The game will now run with it's default settings. The "TDM-ModPack" folder is still present. You can either delete it now or keep it to reinstall the TDM-ModPack if you desire to do so. To re-install the ModPack, follow the instructions for un-install but use the "TDM-ModPack Path.txt" instead.


Un-Installing the TDM-ModPack, 2. Method
========================================

(1) Open "Path.txt" in your Space Empires IV folder.

(2) Alter this line

Using Mod Directory := TDM-ModPack

to

Using Mod Directory := None


Installing the other MODs
=========================

Make sure to install all other MODs you download into the "TDM-ModPack" folder and do not edit or override the "Path.txt" in your Space Empires IV folder. Following these instructions makes sure you don't cripple your ModPack installation involuntarily.
BEWARE: Overriding any files in the "TDM-ModPack" folder may disrupt your ModPack installation!


HISTORY
=======

VERSION 2.00 Introduction screens modified to indicate use of "TDM-ModPack Directory," major reworks to previous races and several races added (Jraenar, Praetorian, Ukratel, Terran, Xiati, Vaxin and Orks)

Compiled file contains the following:

(1) Complete AI Race files and Shipset for "Earth Alliance" - Version 2.50 (with shipset by Randy Stuce and other artists and AI/speech files by K126 Mephisto).

(2) Complete AI Race files and Shipset for "Narn Regime" - Version 2.50 (with shipset by Randy Stuce and other artists and AI/speech files by K126 Mephisto).

(3) Complete AI Race files and Shipset for "Toron Confederation" - Version 2.50 (with shipset by Klaus Lehtonen and AI/speech files by K126 Mephisto).

(4) Complete AI Race files and Shipset for "Dra'kol" - Version 1.80 (with shipset by Don Phillips a/k/a Voidhawk, AI files by Tampa_Gamer and speech file by John Zamarra).

(5) Complete AI Race files and Shipset for "Sergetti" - Version 1.80 (with default shipset from Malfador Machinations, AI files by Daynarr).

(6) Complete AI Race files and Shipset for "Xi'Chung" - Version 1.40 (with default shipset from Malfador Machinations, AI files by Daynarr).

(7) Revised default AI_Planet_Types file to tweak planet selection for AI (by Daynarr).

(8) Complete AI Race files and Shipset for "Piundon - Version 1.20 (with default shipset from Malfador Machinations, AI files by Tampa_Gamer, speech file by John Zamarra)

(9) Complete AI Race files and Shipset for "Rage Collective" - Version 2.20 (with shipset and AI files by Alpha Kodiak)

(10) Complete AI Race files and Shipset for "Battle Star Galactica - Colonials" - Version 1.20 (with shipset by Dracus and AI files by Tampa_Gamer)

(11) Complete AI Race files and Shipset for "Norak" - Version 1.20 (with default shipset from Malfador Machinations, AI files by Daynarr).

(12) New formations.txt file that includes 9 new formations (contributions by Tampa_Gamer, Daynarr and Master Belisarius)

(13) Complete AI Race files and Shipset for "Pyrochette" - Version 1.50 (with shipset by Grand Mausic Yith Saulkar and AI files by Master Belisarius).

(14) Complete AI Race files and Shipset for "Klingon" - Version 1.49a (with shipset by Atrocities and others, AI files by God Emperor and speech file by Dracus).

(15) Complete AI Race files and Shipset for "Romulan" - Version 1.49a (with shipset by Atrocities and others and AI files by God Emperor).

(16) Complete AI Race files and Shipset for "Shadows" - Version 1.49a (with shipset by Atrocities and others and AI files by God Emperor).

(17) Settings.txt modified to make "Quick Start" option available for all races - including 4 additional default races and all new races and increased default max units/ships (modified by Tampa_Gamer and Mephisto).

(18) "Modlauncher" info file added (created by Mephisto).

(19) Complete AI Race files and Shipset for "Aquilaeian" - Version 1.20 (with shipset by Klaus Lehtonen a/k/a Zarix and AI files by Master Belisarius).

(20) Revised "Intro.bmp" screens for both 800x and 1024x Versions to indicate that "TDM-ModPack Directory" in use (created by Tampa_Gamer).

(21) Complete AI Race files and Shipset for "Jraenar" - Version 1.49a (with default shipset from Malfador Machinations, AI files by God Emperor).

(22) Complete AI Race files and Shipset for "Praetorian" - Version 1.49a (with default shipset from Malfador Machinations, AI files by God Emperor).

(23) Complete AI Race files and Shipset for "Ukratel" - Version 1.49a (with default shipset from Malfador Machinations, AI files by God Emperor).

(24) Complete AI Race files and Shipset for "Terran" - Version 2.50 (with default shipset from Malfador Machinations, AI files by Mephisto).

(25) Complete AI Race files and Shipset for "Xiati" - Version 2.50 (with default shipset from Malfador Machinations, AI files by Mephisto).

(26) Complete AI Race files and Shipset for "Vaxin" - Version 2.50 (with shipset and AI files by Alpha Kodiak).

(27) Complete AI Race files and Shipset for "Orks" - Version 3.00 (with shipset and AI files by Atraikius).

VERSION 1.80 Aquilaeian race added, Klingon, Romulan, Shadows races updated and ModLauncher info file added.

VERSION 1.75 All races (except Norak, Xi'Chung and Sergetti which have been tested and are working with Version 1.41) reworked by respective authors; new race called the "Shadows" added.

VERSION 1.72 - Minor patch to include strategy changes to Norak, Sergetti & Xi'Chung and minor tweaks/spelling corrections to Klingon & Romulan AI files

VERSION 1.71 - Revisions to all races, updated for SE4 ver 1.35 & addition of Klingon, Romulan & Pyrochette races

VERSION 1.70 - Revisions to all races & additional races added

VERSION 1.60 - Revisions to all races

VERSION 1.50 - Added shipsets for Earth Alliance and Dra'kol, all AI files tweaked and updated

VERSION 1.01 - Fixed several range errors caused by spacing and spelling error in Dra'kol files.

VERSION 1.00 - Initial Release

NOTES
=====

(1) Each of the races has a complete revision history and additional notes contained in their own respective "readme.txt" files located in the race subfolders.

(2) You can find the most recent Version of this ModPack in the "Space Empires: IV - AI Races/Ship Sets" folder on the Shrapnel Games website download section located here: http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin/forumdis play.cgi?action=topics&forum=Scenario/Mod+Archive&number=25&DaysPrune=20&LastLogin=. (http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=Scenario/Mod+Archive&number=25&DaysPrune=20&LastLogin=.)

(3) This TDM-ModPack may be freely distributed as long as no files are modified, added or deleted.

Have Fun!
- The TDM-ModPack Team

[This message has been edited by [K126]Mephisto (edited 13 November 2001).]

[This message has been edited by [K126]Mephisto (edited 15 November 2001).]

[Tampa_Gamer]

Everyone who uses the TDM-ModPack:

As Mephisto said, we WANT your comments/criticisms, etc. Please post them in this thread so all of the authors (and there are a lot of us) can see what needs to be fixed. When posting, please state what Version you used, what type of game you were playing (planets/tech start/racial point levels/galaxy type/warp points connected or not) and whether any other mods were installed at the same time or you were using a modified set. If there is something really screwy, it helps to send us a savegame. Even if you have no bugs, etc. - it would be helpful if people posted "leaderBoards" from their games and explained the type of game so that we can see which races need to be improved in what type of games starts.

Thanks in advance for you help.
-Tampa_Gamer

[Alpha Kodiak]

Mephisto:

Quick note - the Version number on the Vaxin should be 1.1, not 2.50. Very minor issue, but I wanted to let you know about it.

Thanks,

AK

[Tampa_Gamer]

Sorry about that Alpha K. - that was my fault, not Mephisto's. We will correct for final Version.

[Alpha Kodiak]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tampa_Gamer:
Sorry about that Alpha K. - that was my fault, not Mephisto's. We will correct for final Version.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No problem - just didn't want people to get confused later. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon6.gif

[khanuk]

Apologies but I am a total newbie at SEIV - so new that Fedex only just delivered my copy home today and I still havn't got back to instal it.

I am just checking the various threads on this board to get a feel for the game and should be grateful if one of you pros could please tell me what I DO need to download/instal in order to get max satisfaction.

Seeing all these MODs and patches and stuff makes a computer virgin like me slightly scared.

Cheers

------------------
sodomis non sapiens

[oleg]

New SE4 disk with TDM-mod is a commercial product, right ? Would't Shrapnel Games have copyright problems about klingons, romulans, earth alliance, etc. with Paramount, Warner Brothers and god knows who else ?

[Mephisto]

Yea, they would have. We will remove the copyrighted races in the CD-Version. All the AI files from these races have been transfered to races that came with the game (e.g. Earth Alliance -&gt; Terrans)

[Sinapus]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by oleg:
New SE4 disk with TDM-mod is a commercial product, right ? Would't Shrapnel Games have copyright problems about klingons, romulans, earth alliance, etc. with Paramount, Warner Brothers and god knows who else ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good point. Especially Paramount.

Of course, I did notice that the Drakol appear to be a rename of a certain race from another game. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif




------------------
--
"What do -you- want?" "I'd like to live -just- long enough to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors come with too high a price. I would look up into your lifeless eyes and wave like this..." *waggle* "...can you and your associates arrange that for me, Mr. Morden?"

[Mephisto]

Just try this Mod for the start. It doesn't change any settings from the original game, it just adds new and - i hope - better AIs.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by khanuk:
I am just checking the various threads on this board to get a feel for the game and should be grateful if one of you pros could please tell me what I DO need to download/instal in order to get max satisfaction.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Tampa_Gamer]

Khanuk:

My 2 cents would be to (1) install the game from the CD (probably Version 1.01), (2) update it with the latest patch (Version 1.49 found in the patch section on the main SG site), (3) sit back and play the tutorials and a few small galaxy games to get a feel for how to do certain things like build ships, design and research, and then (4) look into some of the non-data modifying mods like the TDM-ModPack. Trying to install mods even before you understand some of the basics of the game, may be a bit overwhelming even if you have played a lot of 4x games before http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

-TG

[This message has been edited by Tampa_Gamer (edited 06 November 2001).]

[Gorgo]

I have found two problems with the TDM-Modpack:

1) the SE IV cursor seems to have disappeared and is replaced by the window standard cursor. If I change path.txt to none again, I have the SE IV cursor back.

2)I get an error when the Klingons make their turn stating the Filler Tech entry hasn't been found. I've been searching for the file TechArea_fillertech which is stated in God Emperor's Readme, but couldn't find it on my harddrive, so I guess it's not part of the Modpack right now.

Gorgo

[Tampa_Gamer]

Thanks Gorgo-

I figured out the cursor problem. With this Version we added a small modification to the intro screen to let the player know that they were using files from the TDM-ModPack directory instead of the default ones. Unfortunately, it looks like the game is OK with flipping back to the default graphics files for buttons, etc. but it really wants the cursors to be in the "TDM-ModPack\Pictures\Game" subdirectory. For now you can just copy the cursors from the default to that directory and that should fix the problem. Thanks for the bug!

-TG

[Atrocities]

I noticed that the Klingon set is using the old graphic set without the Baseship BMP. The race viewer is also out dated.

And I noted that the Romulan race also is not using the Baseship BMP

CORRECTION, the name has been changed and the Race Viewers have not been updated. I will fix that now.

------------------
New Age Ship Yards (http://www.angelfire.com/tv2/NewAgeShipyards/index.html)

"We've made too many compromises already, too many retreats! They invade our space and we fall back -- they assimilate entire worlds and we fall back! Not again! The line must be drawn here -- this far, no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done!" -- Captain Picard STNG

Borg (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/ubbuploads/Atrocities/Borg.zip) Breen (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/ubbuploads/Atrocities/Breen.zip) Species 8472 (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/ubbuploads/Atrocities/8472.zip) Cardassian (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/ubbuploads/Atrocities/Card.zip) Dominion (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/ubbuploads/Atrocities/Dominion.zip) STNG (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/ubbuploads/Atrocities/Fed.zip) Ferengi (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/ubbuploads/Atrocities/Ferg.zip) Klingon (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/ubbuploads/Atrocities/Klingon.zip) Romulan (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/ubbuploads/Atrocities/Romulan.zip)
Trek Movie era (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/ubbuploads/Atrocities/Tos.zip) TOS (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/ubbuploads/Atrocities/Trekos.zip) Illuminati (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/ubbuploads/Atrocities/Illuminati.zip) Starwolf (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/ubbuploads/Atrocities/Starwolf.zip) Rogue Fleet (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/ubbuploads/Atrocities/RogueFleet.zip)

[Atrocities]

Just copy the new race viewer into the correct race folder. Then open it. Should work fine and show the baseship BMP now.

I have also corrected the angle of the Frigate Portrait BMP.

------------------
New Age Ship Yards (http://www.angelfire.com/tv2/NewAgeShipyards/index.html)

"We've made too many compromises already, too many retreats! They invade our space and we fall back -- they assimilate entire worlds and we fall back! Not again! The line must be drawn here -- this far, no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done!" -- Captain Picard STNG

Borg (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/ubbuploads/Atrocities/Borg.zip) Breen (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/ubbuploads/Atrocities/Breen.zip) Species 8472 (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/ubbuploads/Atrocities/8472.zip) Cardassian (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/ubbuploads/Atrocities/Card.zip) Dominion (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/ubbuploads/Atrocities/Dominion.zip) STNG (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/ubbuploads/Atrocities/Fed.zip) Ferengi (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/ubbuploads/Atrocities/Ferg.zip) Klingon (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/ubbuploads/Atrocities/Klingon.zip) Romulan (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/ubbuploads/Atrocities/Romulan.zip)
Trek Movie era (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/ubbuploads/Atrocities/Tos.zip) TOS (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/ubbuploads/Atrocities/Trekos.zip) Illuminati (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/ubbuploads/Atrocities/Illuminati.zip) Starwolf (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/ubbuploads/Atrocities/Starwolf.zip) Rogue Fleet (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/ubbuploads/Atrocities/RogueFleet.zip)

[This message has been edited by Atrocities (edited 07 November 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Atrocities (edited 07 November 2001).]

[Q]

Atrocities, as Gorgo already pointed out the Klingons and Romulans use the "filler technology" in the research files, which is not part of Mod-Pack an therefore gives an error message. Furthermore you did not specifify a design name file in the empire file (at least with 2000 racial points).

[This message has been edited by Q (edited 07 November 2001).]

[Atrocities]

Q, I did not design the AI, but I can tell you how to fix it. Copy this and paste it into your TechArea file at the bottom.

Put the Component Text info into the Components Text file at the bottom of the list. There you go, you have borg technology now. If you don't want the borg tech, or the filler tech, then don't add the this to the components text.

Here are the Rom EMP files with Design Name specified.


------------------
New Age Ship Yards (http://www.angelfire.com/tv2/NewAgeShipyards/index.html)

"We've made too many compromises already, too many retreats! They invade our space and we fall back -- they assimilate entire worlds and we fall back! Not again! The line must be drawn here -- this far, no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done!" -- Captain Picard STNG

Borg (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/ubbuploads/Atrocities/Borg.zip) Breen (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/ubbuploads/Atrocities/Breen.zip) Species 8472 (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/ubbuploads/Atrocities/8472.zip) Cardassian (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/ubbuploads/Atrocities/Card.zip) Dominion (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/ubbuploads/Atrocities/Dominion.zip) STNG (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/ubbuploads/Atrocities/Fed.zip) Ferengi (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/ubbuploads/Atrocities/Ferg.zip) Klingon (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/ubbuploads/Atrocities/Klingon.zip) Romulan (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/ubbuploads/Atrocities/Romulan.zip)
Trek Movie era (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/ubbuploads/Atrocities/Tos.zip) TOS (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/ubbuploads/Atrocities/Trekos.zip) Illuminati (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/ubbuploads/Atrocities/Illuminati.zip) Starwolf (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/ubbuploads/Atrocities/Starwolf.zip) Rogue Fleet (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/ubbuploads/Atrocities/RogueFleet.zip)

[This message has been edited by Atrocities (edited 07 November 2001).]

[Gorgo]

Atrocities, you new text document file is empty - could you (or someone else) please post one that contains the filler tech?

Thanks,
Gorgo

[oleg]

As mentioned already, Romulan .emp file does not specify design name. The same happens to Klingons - no design name.

Romulans have a bigger problem though. As I learned, its research and ship design files are based on God-Emperor mode which includes destroyer hull from the start. As result, Romulans do not build normal colony ships !!

Instead, they build frigates with cargo bays and call them "colony ships". Klingon' files are fine. I always like Klingons more then Romulans and am glad that later is now a laughing stock of the galaxy ! Truly pathetic race http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

I think that Piundon have problems with colony ships as well. The colony ship has only 3 engines and supply storage. The resulting supply is exactly the same as with standard 5-engine ships - 2K, so Piundon ships have _exactly the same range_ but move twice slower ! I understand that Tampa-Gamer have tried to create a long-range colony ship, but it does not work with supply storage I. To get better range, cargo bays but not engines should be replaced with supply.

Oleg.

[Mephisto]

I have fixed all reported bugs upt to the post from Oleg. Thanks all for your support and keep up the good work!

[Q]

One more observation: several races (e.g. Narn, Atraikan) have an empty research project line due to 50% (Narn) or even 100% (Atraikan) Tech Area Min Percent and therefore lose research points!
Thank you Atrocities for the tip how to fix the filler tech problem, but that is very easy to do: just delete the filler tech projects in the research files (2 each for the Klingons and Romulans).
As far as I see there was no major modifications for the CueCappa and Phong. So if you are interested in my AI for these two races, that are posted in the Mod section some months ago, feel free to use them. They are compatible with Version 1.49 as far as I tested it.

[Gorgo]

Mephisto:

Is the changed ModPack Online again? What about the Filler Tech - is it included now?

Gorgo

[Atraikius]

Q - Atraikians aren't part of the modpack. They are currently undergoing a major rework including the ship pictures since htose were just my initial pictures for a BFG Chaos race in a different color. It's going to be a while before they are done. The Zorians have the same 100% problem, but all I have left on them right now is re-rendering the bases, weapon platforms, troops, and the med./lrg transport. I'm hopeing they will be done by monday, followed by the Kzinti (using SFB ships from Ghosts Shipyards), Chaos, and Gorn (again ships from Ghosts shipyards).

[Mephisto]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gorgo:
Is the changed ModPack Online again? What about the Filler Tech - is it included now?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its Online, just click the old link. The filler tech is not included (no need for it any more since MM fixed the research queue bug) but the lines that caused the errors where erased.

[Mephisto]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Q:
One more observation: several races (e.g. Narn, Atraikan) have an empty research project line due to 50% (Narn) or even 100% (Atraikan) Tech Area Min Percent and therefore lose research points!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Narn should not have an empty research queue. Note that the AI will fill the research queue (in fact all queues) at the end of the turn so you don't always see what the Ai is doing until you get the log report in the next turn. In which cases do the Narn have an empty research queue?

[khanuk]

Tampa_Gamer and Mephisto

Many thanks for the advice. Installed SEIV Version 1.01)Last night, did the tutorial and is well impressed.

Tampa_Gamer, I will follow your lead and get the hang of this before I download the 1.49 patch and the Mods - look forward to having some meaningful input on future threads

All the best

[Suicide Junkie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I think that Piundon have problems with colony ships as well. The colony ship has only 3 engines and supply storage. The resulting supply is exactly the same as with standard 5-engine ships - 2K, so Piundon ships have _exactly the same range_ but move twice slower ! I understand that Tampa-Gamer have tried to create a long-range colony ship, but it does not work with supply storage I. To get better range, cargo bays but not engines should be replaced with supply.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I feel I should point out here that swapping engines for Supply Storage Is will increase your range dramatically.

In this case, 5 engines, and 2500 supplies is normal:
2500 / (5*10) = 50 squares range

3 engines, and 2500 supplies:
2500 / (3*10) = 83 range @ speed 3

By reducing your speed to 3, you get 66% more range.

Note: upgrading engines from Ion to Quantums will have no effect on your range, just your speed. You run out of fuel in the same starsystem, but you get to that starsystem faster.

[Tampa_Gamer]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by suicide_junkie:
I feel I should point out here that swapping engines for Supply Storage Is will increase your range dramatically.

In this case, 5 engines, and 2500 supplies is normal:
2500 / (5*10) = 50 squares range

3 engines, and 2500 supplies:
2500 / (3*10) = 83 range @ speed 3

By reducing your speed to 3, you get 66% more range.

Note: upgrading engines from Ion to Quantums will have no effect on your range, just your speed. You run out of fuel in the same starsystem, but you get to that starsystem faster.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm.. Thanks suicide, I don't have my notes with me, but I thought I went through some sort of comparison when I was first doing that.

[capnq]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Tampa_Gamer, I will follow your lead and get the hang of this before I download the 1.49 patch and the Mods<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just to clarify, Khanuk, you should not hold off on getting the 1.49 patch. It fixes a large number of bugs that have been discovered since the game was first released.

------------------
Cap'n Q
My first SE IV mod! Hypermaze quadrant (http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/Forum25/HTML/000018.html)
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu"

[Daynarr]

Ok guys; I would like some critics on Sergetti, Xi'Chung and Norak. Currently I don't have much time to play test them, so some players observations would be more then welcome (and it would speed up the improvement of these races).

Ok, you can start shooting.


[runs for cover]

[Mephisto]

Here are all the updated AI files.

[khanuk]

many thanks capnq, slip of the digit there - I will be downloading the patch this evening and holding off on the Mods for the moment.

------------------
sodomis non sapiens

[Rollo]

Hi everybody,
here is a couple of things that I noticed and also some some results from a test game:
1) The Colonials and Drakol do not research astrophysics1 in not connected state, so they cannot research stellar manipulation either.
2) The new files for romulan and klingon that are posted by God Emperor in the mod archive will add new empires to the folder. There are now two sets of empires for each race romulan/romulan star empire and klingon/klingon empire.

I have started a test game: large mid-life (random map, but modded to leave black holes out), 3 average planets, low tech/med cost, 3000 pts, high AI difficuty, low bonus.
Races included are the ones mentioned in the readme to have major reworks (Jraenar, Praetorian, UkraTal, Terran, Xiati), the new ones (Vaxin , Orks), the Romulan and Klingons, and the Space Vikings (of course, http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif). I am playing the Norak under full minister control. edit: (and not getting the low bonus. So don't worry about them Daynarr http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif. I will include your races in my next test).

I have posted the stats for turns 10, 20, and 30 as jpgs (attached).

Diplomacy (turn 30):

Norak (me): war with Terran & Romulans, TA with Vaxin
Space Vikings: war with Jraenar & Xiati, TA with Orks
Jraenar: war with Vikings, MA with Xiati
Preatorians: war with Vaxin, TA with Romulan
UkraTal: war with Orks
Terrans: war with Norak, TA with Romulan
Xiati: war with Vikings, MA with Jraenar, TA with Vaxin
Vaxin: TA with Norak & Xiati, war with Praetorians
Orks: war with UkraTal & Klingons, TA with Vikings
Romulan: war with Norak, TA with Praetorians & Terrans
Klingons: war with Orks

After saving on turn 20 and 30, I checked on the races for research:
Jraenar: all projects completed and thus reserach loss on turn 30 after researching PPB3 and Expl. Warhead2
Preatorian: on turn 30 after PPB1 and smaller weapons2
UkraTal: on turn 20 after PDC2 and sm. Weap1
Terran: on turn 20 after chemistry and PPB3

I noticed that many races use only 50s for research now. That will probably result in a lot of research lost (especially if giving the AI a bonus). Smaller numbers for cheap projects would not be a bad idea, IMHO.

Please let me know, if you are interested on the stats of later turns of that test game (I don't want to flood this thread with stats unless desired). Otherwise I will just post other things that I notice.

Rollo

[This message has been edited by Rollo (edited 07 November 2001).]

[Atrocities]

Thank you Mephisto for the updated AI.
The Romulan and Klingons should only have the AI files the God Emperor has included. The Emp. Files I produced are exact matches for the General AI setup. They do not contain anything new. The AI IS God Emperors. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

[This message has been edited by Atrocities (edited 07 November 2001).]

[Mephisto]

A short note for you, Atrocities: The emp files you sent earlier today had the button "use styles from race" not check, i.e. by adding the emp files the klingons and romulans are playing with the default AI. I have fixed this in the TDM-Emps so you might consider using them. I have also re-added all of God Emperors files to make sure that we are using his new files and no old files that might have slipped in with your graphics.

[This message has been edited by [K126]Mephisto (edited 07 November 2001).]

[Mephisto]

Rollo, by all means, keep posting! This is exactly what we want to see here! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Mephisto]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rollo:
I noticed that many races use only 50s for research now. That will probably result in a lot of research lost (especially if giving the AI a bonus). Smaller numbers for cheap projects would not be a bad idea, IMHO.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As usual there are two sides of the medal. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif
If you increase the number of simultaneous projects in a low research point environment (maybe even high tech costs) the AI will not really press an early advantage in an research field. It is just hard to balance but in the end the AI will only lose research points in the beginning and not that many point (usually). We all have to make some compromises. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Atrocities]

Thanks

[Tampa_Gamer]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rollo:

1) The Colonials and Drakol do not research astrophysics1 in not connected state, so they cannot research stellar manipulation either...
Races included are the ones mentioned in the readme to have major reworks (Jraenar, Praetorian, UkraTal, Terran, Xiati), the new ones (Vaxin , Orks), the Romulan and Klingons, and the Space Vikings (of course, http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif). I am playing the Norak under full minister control. edit: (and not getting the low bonus. So don't worry about them Daynarr http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif. I will include your races in my next test).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rollo- Thanks for the roll call that is exactly what we need so keep it coming. I will immediately fix the research files. Thanks for the catch.

Also FYI - the Dra'kol, Piundon and Colonials were completely reworked too so somebody please add them to their game and give constructive criticism http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif

Thanks
-TG

[Rollo]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by [K126]Mephisto:
As usual there are two sides of the medal. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif
If you increase the number of simultaneous projects in a low research point environment (maybe even high tech costs) the AI will not really press an early advantage in an research field. It is just hard to balance but in the end the AI will only lose research points in the beginning and not that many point (usually). We all have to make some compromises. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with you and I am not saying that lower numbers should be used in general. However, certain tech levels (e.g low level armor and weapons , Adv. Mil. Sci., and other 5000 point stuff) could use lower numbers to prevent research loss. Just MHO.

I'll post more of my test game later.

Rollo

[capnq]

Shadows_AI_General.txt has "Political Savvy" misspelled under all three Race Options.

I'm playing the Dra'kol. First Contact with the Colonials on 2401.9; when I tried to set Players to human control to get stats, 1.49 wants a Game Master password?!? In a solo turn-based game?!?!?

I have the Dra'kol in 2nd place as of 2402.0, in a 12 player solo game with the default Quick Start options.

It was really cool to see my Hypermaze listed in the compatible mods. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif I've been waiting for TDM to start working on v1.1, just to conserve HD space.

While I was downloading TDM 2.0 today, FedEx showed up with my copy of Runesword II. How am I supposed to get anything done around here? http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif

------------------
Cap'n Q
My first SE IV mod! Hypermaze quadrant (http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/Forum25/HTML/000018.html)
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu"

[This message has been edited by capnq (edited 07 November 2001).]

[God Emperor]

Capnq,
Looks like the Shadows files in modpack are old ones too.
The Shadows_General.txt file I sent for inclusion into modpack had "Political Savvy" correctly spelled.

I have posted the files I sent to Mephisto in the races archive so that players are recommended to use these until things are sorted out. The modpack EMP files should be used though as Mephisto made a correction to each of those files.
Regards,
GE.

PS: Its a huge job that Mephisto has undertaken and some bugs were bound to crop up!

[Mephisto]

Dear all,
please make sure to use the BetaUpdateI.zip that I posted earlier today (see some Posts below). It contains the newest files from God Emperor for sure. If your errors still persist, it is a bug in the new files. Please report them if you encounter any. Thanks in advance!
Mephisto/BetaUpdateI.zip]http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/ubbuploads/[K126]Mephisto/BetaUpdateI.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/ubbuploads/[K126)

[This message has been edited by [K126]Mephisto (edited 07 November 2001).]

[Rollo]

Okay, I have continued my test http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif.
Look at jpg for stats.

Diplomacy (turn 50):
Norak (me): T&R with Vikings, none with Jraenar, war with Terran & Romulans, MA with Vaxin
Space Vikings: T&R with Norak, war with Jraenar, none with Praetorians, TA with UkraTal, TA with Terrans, war with Xiati, T&R with Orks, TA with Klingons
Jraenar: none with Norak, war with Vikings, none with UkaTal, war with Terrans, none with Xiati, TA with Orks, war with Klingons
Preatorians: none with Vikings, none with Terrans, war with Vaxin, P with Romulan
UkraTal: TA with Vikings, none with Jraenar, war with Orks, TA with Klingons
Terrans: war with Norak, TA with Vikings, war with Jraenar, none with Praetorian, P with Romulans
Xiati: war with Vikings, none with Jraenar, P with Vaxin
Vaxin: MA with Norak, war with Praetorians, P with Xiati, war with Romulans
Orks: TR with Vikings, TA with Jraenar, war with UkraTal, war with Klingons
Romulan: war with Norak, P with Praetorians, P with Terrans, war with Vaxin
Klingons: war with Orks

other things (I have checked for research now every 5 turns after saving. After checking on the races, I always reload so the races don't get "disturbed" by my checks):
Romulans: research loss on turn 35 after PPB1 and sm. Weap. 2, and on turn 45 after construction and sm. Weap.3
Klingons: on turn 35 after PPB1 and sm. Weap2, on turn 50 after mines1 and repair1
UkraTal: on turn 40 after mines1 and repair1
Vikings: on turn 45 after physics2, ship capture2 and engine overload2; also the Vikings captured a Xiati homeworld between turn 40 and 45 with troops (WooHoo!)edit: but that was glassed by turn 50 (Boo!)
Jraenar: IMHO the small fighters are too slow with only 5 engines (movement 3 in combat), I have just seen a single enemy LC on max. range destroy two carrierloads of fighters without harm (and that was strategic combat, needless to say what a human player in tactical would do)

Okay, more to come...
Rollo

[This message has been edited by Rollo (edited 07 November 2001).]

[Tampa_Gamer]

OK, here are two replacements files for the Dra'kol and Colonials if you want to play a "No Connections" type game. I inadvertantly left a minor thing like astrophyics out of their "Not Connected" research queue http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Thanks again Rollo.

[Jourin]

I agree with Rollo. A mix of 50 and 25 is needed and not one or the other. I was going through the Earth Alliance research file which is almost all 50 and comparing it to the Pyrochette which is almost all 25. In an EXCEL spreadsheet I listed all the techs in the order the AI will research (for just the first 20+ techs) and compared with the cost. Basically low cost should be no higher then 25 and high cost or key tech break points (those that reveal desired hidden tech) should be 50. Example Phyics 1 at 50K should be 50% while propulsion 1 at 10K or Smaller weapons at 5K should be no higher then 25. Industry should be 50 if the intent is to get computers but maybe computers should be 25. I found that around 20K was a good break point for the early game with around 20K or less being 25% and those greater being 50%. Although I haven't tested, I think for later games the break point should be increased to 50K. I also experimented with combos of 5,10,10 and 10,15 (keeping in multiplies of 25 for simplicity) but did not see a significant gain to offset the complications I had keeping track. Just my opinion if I was designing the research files, but since I am not, I just want to thank you for all your hard work.

[Alpha Kodiak]

Rollo:

I noticed that the Vaxin are doing quite poorly in your test game (specifically, they have very few planets). Are they just suffering from poor location, or does there seem to be something wrong in their construction files?

[Rollo]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alpha Kodiak:
Rollo:

I noticed that the Vaxin are doing quite poorly in your test game (specifically, they have very few planets). Are they just suffering from poor location, or does there seem to be something wrong in their construction files?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay, I have looked at their situation:
They had a really bad start. All their homeworlds were in differnet systems and one was not even next to the other two. By turn 10 they had contact with the Romulans(war) and Praetorians(none). By turn 20 they were at war with the Praetorians and one homeworld was damaged (reduced to 200M pop and 4 facilities out of 18). Apparently they had a temporary peace with the Romulans between 10 and 20, but that was broken in turn 20 also. By turn 30 the damaged homeworld was destroyed and another one blockaded. While they are still up and fighting in turn 70, they never really recovered from those early losses.

I will definately include them in my next game again to see how they do then.

Btw, I have all the saves from every 10 turns. If you or anybody else wants to look at them, just tell me and I will send them to you. If anybody wants me to look at something particular about their races, just let me know.

Rollo

PS: If you want me to send you any turns, write me an email. I'll be up another hour or so, post the stats up to turn70 and then go to bed.

[Tampa_Gamer]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by oleg:
I think that Piundon have problems with colony ships as well. The colony ship has only 3 engines and supply storage. The resulting supply is exactly the same as with standard 5-engine ships - 2K, so Piundon ships have _exactly the same range_ but move twice slower ! I understand that Tampa-Gamer have tried to create a long-range colony ship, but it does not work with supply storage I. To get better range, cargo bays but not engines should be replaced with supply.

Oleg.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the observation Oleg, this is exactly why we wanted several more pairs of eyes on our races. I think the problem is I originally was designing the epoch 1 colonizers for several succeeding tech levels. With the design of the LRACK colonizer, I guess I should put the originals back to what they were. I will test this tonight. Thanks again.

-TG

[This message has been edited by Tampa_Gamer (edited 07 November 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Tampa_Gamer (edited 07 November 2001).]

[God Emperor]

Guys,
Just to let you know, there has been some compilation problem with the Klingon, Romulan files in mod-pack.
The files I sent for inclusion work fine.
I suspect that they were accidently overwritten by an older Version.
I am in touch with Mephisto regarding it.
I have posted them in the races archive in the mean-time until it is all sorted out.

Regards,
GE.

PS: Its a huge job that Mephisto has undertaken and some bugs were bound to crop up!

[Rollo]

and the game goes on... http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon10.gif

Diplomacy (turn 70):
Norak (me): T&R with Vikings, TA with Jraenar, TA with Praetorians, war with Terrans, TA with Xiati, P with Vaxin, war with Romulans
Space Vikings: T&R with Norak, TA with Jraenar (!), MA with Praetorians, P with UkraTal, MA with Terrans, war with Xiati, MA with Orks, MA with Klingons
Jraenar: TA with Norak, TA with Vikings (!), T&R with UkraTal, war with Terrans, war with Xiati, TA with Orks, war with Klingons
Preatorians: TA with Norak, MA with Vikings, TR with Terrans, TR with Xiati, war with Vaxin, P with Romulan
UkraTal: P with Vikings, TR with Jraenar, war with Orks, P with Klingons
Terrans: war with Norak, MA with Vikings, war with Jraenar, TR with Praetorian, TA with Vaxin, P with Romulans
Xiati: TA with Norak, war with Vikings, war with Jraenar, TR with Praetorians, P with Vaxin, TA with Orks, P with Romulans
Vaxin: P with Norak, war with Praetorians, TA with Terrans, P with Xiati, war with Romulans
Orks: MA with Vikings, TA with Jraenar, war with UkraTal, TA with Xiati, war with Klingons
Romulan: war with Norak, P with Praetorians, P with Terrans, P with Xiati, war with Vaxin
Klingons: MA with Vikings, war with Jraenar, P with UkraTal, war with Orks

other stuff:
Terrans: loss of research on turn 55 after gas colo tech & Appl. Pol. Sci, on turn 65 after computers2 & PDC4, on turn70 after adv mil sci2 & repair3; the terrans have all colonization tech since turn 55 and increase their resources and research like crazy.

Vikings: around turn 55 the Vikings and Jraenar made peace after a long and bloody war that (surprisingly) holds until now, even though both races are murderous at each other. I guess they are just too busy elsewhere http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif. The Viking-Xiati war should be interesting in the future. While the Vikings managed to gain ground previously and even captured and secured one of the Xiati shrine worlds, the Xiati now have the Talisman and are inflicting heavy damage to the Viking fleets. Btw, the Vikings boarded a Xiati carrier some time ago that is now included in one of their fleets.

If you want to know something else, let me know.
Good night,
Rollo

[Atrocities]

For the record, and off topic, I would like to say thank you to Mephisto, God E, and everyone else who is involved, for all the work that they have done on the TDM pack. Your work is greatly appreciated guys. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

[This message has been edited by Atrocities (edited 08 November 2001).]

[Alpha Kodiak]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rollo:
Okay, I have looked at their situation:
They had a really bad start. All their homeworlds were in differnet systems and one was not even next to the other two. By turn 10 they had contact with the Romulans(war) and Praetorians(none). By turn 20 they were at war with the Praetorians and one homeworld was damaged (reduced to 200M pop and 4 facilities out of 18). Apparently they had a temporary peace with the Romulans between 10 and 20, but that was broken in turn 20 also. By turn 30 the damaged homeworld was destroyed and another one blockaded. While they are still up and fighting in turn 70, they never really recovered from those early losses.

I will definately include them in my next game again to see how they do then.

Btw, I have all the saves from every 10 turns. If you or anybody else wants to look at them, just tell me and I will send them to you. If anybody wants me to look at something particular about their races, just let me know.

Rollo

PS: If you want me to send you any turns, write me an email. I'll be up another hour or so, post the stats up to turn70 and then go to bed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the info! I don't think I'll need to see the save game. Just keep us posted on how things are going. This is a huge help. If you can, check out the Rage in your next game, they may have a few new tricks up their sleeves. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon6.gif

[Mephisto]

New Ai files: Fixes problems with the Vaxin and the Shadows.

[Marco]

For [K126] Mephisto, Alpha Kodiak and Tampa_Gamer
Many thanks to you and the others guys for the wonderful work! I have some question for you:
First, if I understand correctly, the Last TDM_ModPack Version is TDM_ModPack 200.zip posted 7 November 2001 16:21, upgraded with BetaUpdate2.zip posted 8 November 2001 08:30, which already cover the fixes in TDM_ModPack.zip file posted by God Emperor 7 November 2001 13:08 and the fixes in Vaxin 111.zip file posted by Alpha Kodiak 8 November 2001 06:30, or I need even BetaUpdateI.zip, posted 7 november 2001 16:45?
About Colonial and Drakol: Colonial AI Research.txt and Drakol AI Research.txt, posted by Tampa_Gamer 7 November 2001 22:04, are specials files Versions only for “No Connections” type game, or must be used for all games, effectively replacing the originals corresponding files in TDM_ModPack?
Finally there is any known conflict with Tampa Gamer Sound 1 35.zip and related Component.txt, QuadrantTypes.txt from Deathstalker and Events.txt ver.1.30 from Dracus, posted 21 July 2001 15:46?
Thanks and bests regards.
Marco.

[Mephisto]

Thanks for your kind words, Marco. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif
Answering your Question: Just download the TDM-ModPack_200.zip OR the latest Beta Update 2.zip (I keep all my files up to date http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif). All fixes, including the ones for the Colonials, are included in both files.
Further, there are no known conflicts with these other MODs, read the Readme - Compatibility.txt that comes with the ModPack for further details. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Rollo]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by God Emperor:
@Rollo,
Go Jraenar!!! They look seriously mean at turn 70... They should start colonising Gas Giants shortly - if they already havent....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, they are getting really big. FYI, they have researched gas colo tech in turn 50. I was planning on including them in my next test again to see if they can repeat this performance, but I have just realized that all the slots are already full. I want to limit the races to 10, because that makes it easier to post the stats (so far I had to make two screenshots and cut and paste the Klingons into the leaderboard, because I had 11 races and the game only shows 10 races on one screen).

The next test will include the Sergetti, Xi'Chung, and Norak (as requested by Daynarr), the Dra'kol, Piundon, and Colonials (as requested by Tampa), the Rage (for A.K.), and Vaxin (they deserve a second chance), and of course myself and the Space Vikings (hey, I am not doing this out of pure altruism. I want to see how my guys are doing http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif).

[K126]Mephisto- I will send you the saves up to turn 100.

I will post stats and more info up to turn 100 later today.

Rollo

PS: It just came to me how can include the Jraenar also in the next game. I'll just put myself as the Last player in the list. Nobody is really interested in my stats anyway http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif.

[God Emperor]

@Rollo,
Keep up the good reports!
Am a bit busy myself currently, with the Last week being particulalry hectic play testing the mods and getting them finalised.

Incidently, the Jraenar AI is the same as the Romulan AI, with racial traits providing the only difference.

If you check the races that I have worked on, you will see that Gas Giant technology is very advanced in their research queue with Ice technology being a little further back. In my play tests, if my AI get a decent start, they grow quite massive and build impressive sized fleets.

Have fun! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Regards,
GE

[Rollo]

Here are the stats for turns 71-100.

The Orks have suffered from the war with the Klingons, also the Vikings captured one of their breathable mining colonies with troops. Let's see, if they can strike back...
Also the Orks and Vikings have been falling behind from their good positions in the early to mid-game, because they haven't researched other colonization tech (I suppose).

Colonization tech (as of turn 80)
Vikings: Ice
Jraenar: Rock, Gas, (Ice is in the queue)
Praetorians: Rock, Gas
UkraTal: Ice, Gas
Terran: all
Xiati: all
Vaxin: Gas
Orks: Rock
Romulans: Gas
Klingons: Rock, Gas

Diplomacy (turn 90):
Norak (me): MA with Vikings, war with Jraenar, TA with Praetorians, war with Terrans, TA with Xiati, P with Vaxin, war with Romulans
Space Vikings: MA with Norak, war with Jraenar, P with Praetorians, P with UkraTal, MA with Terrans, TA with Xiati, TR with Vaxin, none with Orks (I don't know who broke that MA), TR with Romulans, MA with Klingons
Jraenar: war with Norak, war with Vikings, TA with Praetorian, P with UkraTal, war with Terrans, war with Xiati, TR with Orks, war with Klingons
Praetorians: TA with Norak, P with Vikings, TA with Jraenar, MA with Terrans, MA with Xiati, TA with Vaxin, MA with Orks, P with Romulan
UkraTal: P with Vikings, P with Jraenar, war with Orks, P with Klingons
Terrans: war with Norak, MA with Vikings, war with Jraenar, MA with Praetorian, TR with Xiati, P with Vaxin, P with Romulans
Xiati: TA with Norak, TA with Vikings, war with Jraenar, MA with Praetorians, TA with Terrans, P with Vaxin, MA with Orks, P with Romulans
Vaxin: P with Norak, TR with Vikings, TA with Praetorians (the Vaxin-Praetorian war has ended both races are brotherly now towards each other), P with Terrans, P with Xiati, TA with Orks, war with Romulans
Orks: none with Vikings (I don't know who broke that MA), TR with Jraenar, MA with Praetorians, war with UkraTal, MA with Xiati, TA with Vaxin, war with Klingons
Romulan: war with Norak, TR with Vikings, P with Praetorians, P with Terrans, P with Xiati, war with Vaxin
Klingons: P with Vikings, war with Jraenar, P with UkraTal, war with Orks

While I don't know if this just happened by chance or is due to the politics file, I really like the sneaky Romulan diplomacy. Waging war against weaker nations and making peace and partnerships with stronger ones is very Romulan-like (At least AFAIK, not being a hardcore trekkie http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif).

fleets (in turn 100)
Vikings: 4 fleets 13 / 13 / 3 / 2
Jraenar: 4 fleets 30 / 21 / 20 / 12
UkraTal: 2 fleets 15 / 8
Terrans: 5 fleets 5 / 4 / 4 / 2 / 2
Xiati: 5 fleets 4 / 4 / 3 / 2 / 1
Vaxin: 4 fleets 7 / 3 / 3 / 3
Orks: 5 fleets 2 / 1 / 1 / 1 / 1
Romulans: 2 fleets 2 / 1
Klingons: 3 fleets 20 / 6 / 3

lost research:
Jraenar: turn 75 after Ship Con.6 & Stell. Har.4; turn 90 after missiles5 & combat support2
Terrans: turn 75 after Adv Mil Sci 5 & prop.5
Praetorians: turn80 after Null-Space1 & prop5; turn 95 after Stell. Har.6 & Industry
Romulans: turn 85 after mines3 & Null-Space1
Xiati: turn 90 after Adv Mil Sci 2 & Repair 3

When I checked on the fleets, I noticed that a number of races (Jraenar, Praetorian, UkraTal, Romulan, Klingons, and maybe others that I missed) also build troop transports. Without getting too much off-topic here, let me suggest that you use normal warships hulls rather than transport hulls for the troop ships. Also it might be a good idea to make the minimum size something like BC or BB (depending on your research), since troops are not researched until the late game by these races. Most of the TTs that I have seen were small transports with ion engines I, so they have been sitting in orbit for some time. Check the files of the Aquilaeian, Orks, or Space Vikings for inspiration. BTW, the AI files I am using for the Vikings in this test are not posted, yet. But if anybody is interested, I can send an AI update.

Cya,
Rollo

[Alpha Kodiak]

Marco:

The BetaUpdate2.zip download will give you the same fixes as the Vaxin 1.11 download, so you don't need both.

I only posted the Vaxin separately for those who don't use TDM.

[Rollo]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by God Emperor:
@Rollo,
Keep up the good reports!
Am a bit busy myself currently, with the Last week being particulalry hectic play testing the mods and getting them finalised.

Incidently, the Jraenar AI is the same as the Romulan AI, with racial traits providing the only difference.

If you check the races that I have worked on, you will see that Gas Giant technology is very advanced in their research queue with Ice technology being a little further back. In my play tests, if my AI get a decent start, they grow quite massive and build impressive sized fleets.

Have fun! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Regards,
GE<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oops, I almost missed your post God Emperor,
interesting to hear that the Jraenar and Romulans having similar files, since their performance is a lot different in this game.

I also noticed that a lot of races research colonization tech early. Depending on how the next test goes, I might move up the colo tech for the Vikings a little bit, but right now I still like the "lean and mean" strategy.

I'll keep posting and having fun http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif,
Rollo

[Master Belisarius]

Great work Rollo! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif
I can remember when we started to test our races with Atraikius, and was very very good.
Please, can you send me:
1. The new AI files for the Vikings.
2. The Last savegame for the game that you have started with the EEEvil, Orks, etc?

Thanks again!

[Rollo]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
Great work Rollo! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif
I can remember when we started to test our races with Atraikius, and was very very good.
Please, can you send me:
1. The new AI files for the Vikings.
2. The Last savegame for the game that you have started with the EEEvil, Orks, etc?

Thanks again!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I remember that, too http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif. The Vikings have quite improved since then, I think. Check them out, files are in the mail.

[Rollo]

God Emperor,
I have found a ship design bug. As one picture says more than a thousand words, here it is. I can only assume this is not intended.

Rollo

[Master Belisarius]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rollo:
God Emperor,
I have found a ship design bug. As one picture says more than a thousand words, here it is. I can only assume this is not intended.

Rollo<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well... all the original Colony ships come with this bug! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif
The question is that an standard Colony hull has not space for 2 colony components, but a Battle Cruiser hull yes...

[Tampa_Gamer]

Yeah, he just needs to eliminate the misc. ability 3 line from the colonizers. If the must have line is filled-in with the colony type, there is no need to have this line too. That is why it is adding two colonizers.

[Rollo]

And we have a new leader!
The Jraenar have suffered under Viking raids into their homelands and amidst the confusion of war the peaceful Praetorians have seized the opportunity and are now aiming for galactic domination. The only questions: Can the Jraenar retaliate and put an end to the Viking intruders? And how will the other races react towards the new galactic leader?

Diplomacy (turn 110):
Norak (me): MA with Vikings, war with Jraenar, MA with Praetorians, war with Terrans, TA with Xiati, P with Vaxin, war with Romulans
Space Vikings: MA with Norak, war with Jraenar, P with Praetorians, P with UkraTal, war with Terrans, TA with Xiati, none with Vaxin, none with Orks, MA with Romulans, P with Klingons
Jraenar: war with Norak, war with Vikings, TR with Praetorian, war with UkraTal (that has changed from P, btw), TR with Terrans, war with Xiati, war with Vaxin, war with Orks, war with Romulans, war with Klingons
Praetorians: MA with Norak, P with Vikings, TR with Jraenar, P with Terrans, MA with Xiati, MA with Vaxin, TA with Orks, P with Romulan; really Mr. Nice Guy http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif. The Praetorians have brotherly moods towards every race in the galaxy (checked in the other races diplomatic windows).
UkraTal: P with Vikings, war with Jraenar (changed from P), war with Orks, P with Klingons
Terrans: war with Norak, war with Vikings, TR with Jraenar, P with Praetorian, MA with Xiati, P with Vaxin, P with Romulans, war with Klingons
Xiati: TA with Norak, TA with Vikings, war with Jraenar, MA with Praetorians, TA with Terrans, P with Vaxin, MA with Orks, P with Romulans
Vaxin: P with Norak, none with Vikings, war with Jraenar, MA with Praetorians, P with Terrans, P with Xiati, MA with Orks, war with Romulans
Orks: none with Vikings , war with Jraenar, TA with Praetorians, war with UkraTal, MA with Xiati, MA with Vaxin, none with Klingons
Romulan: war with Norak, MA with Vikings, war with Jraenar, P with Praetorians, none with Terrans, P with Xiati, war with Vaxin
Klingons: P with Vikings, war with Jraenar, P with UkraTal, war with Terrans, none with Orks

lost research:
Praetorians: on 110 after prop. 9 & ripper 2
UkraTal: on 115 after stell. har. 5 & industry
Terrans: on 115 after computers 5 & APB 1; and on 120 after Astrophysics1 & APB 5

I will keep you posted,
Rollo

[God Emperor]

@Rollo,
Go Jraenar!!! They look seriously mean at turn 70... They should start colonising Gas Giants shortly - if they already havent....

[Tampa_Gamer]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Marco:
About Colonial and Drakol: Colonial AI Research.txt and Drakol AI Research.txt, posted by Tampa_Gamer 7 November 2001 22:04, are specials files Versions only for “No Connections” type game, or must be used for all games, effectively replacing the originals corresponding files in TDM_ModPack?
Finally there is any known conflict with Tampa Gamer Sound 1 35.zip and related Component.txt<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Marco, thanks. Just to clarify, the Colonials and Dra'kol research files only need to be replaced if you want to start a game where the warp points are not connected to start with. There is no need to replace the files otherwise as there were no other changes made to the files. As for my Sound Mod, the latest Version was posted yesterday updated to SE4 Version 1.49, which is fully compatible with the TDM-ModPack, just follow the directions in the readme.txt. If you have any questions, just yell. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

-TG

[This message has been edited by Tampa_Gamer (edited 08 November 2001).]

[Rollo]

Ouch, the Jraenar are really being hit hard. Meanwhile the Terrans have more than doubled their ships and have jumped to second place.

Diplomacy (turn 130):
Norak (me): MA with Vikings, war with Jraenar, MA with Praetorians, war with Terrans, MA with Xiati, TA with Vaxin, war with Romulans
Space Vikings: MA with Norak, war with Jraenar, P with Praetorians, P with UkraTal, war with Terrans, TA with Xiati, none with Vaxin, TA with Orks, P with Romulans, P with Klingons
Jraenar: war with Norak, war with Vikings, MA with Praetorian, war with UkraTal, MA with Terrans, war with Xiati, war with Vaxin, TA with Orks, war with Romulans, TA with Klingons
Praetorians: MA with Norak, P with Vikings, MA with Jraenar, TA with UkraTal, P with Terrans, MA with Xiati, P with Vaxin, MA with Orks, P with Romulan, none with Klingons
UkraTal: P with Vikings, war with Jraenar, TA with Praetorians, TA with Terrans, MA with Xiati, war with Orks, none with Romulan, P with Klingons
Terrans: war with Norak, war with Vikings, MA with Jraenar, P with Praetorian, TA with UkraTal, MA with Xiati, P with Vaxin, P with Romulans, war with Klingons
Xiati: MA with Norak, TA with Vikings, war with Jraenar, MA with Praetorians, MA with UkraTal, MA with Terrans, P with Vaxin, MA with Orks, P with Romulans, war with Klingons
Vaxin: TA with Norak, none with Vikings, war with Jraenar, P with Praetorians, P with Terrans, P with Xiati, P with Orks, none with Romulans
Orks: TA with Vikings , TA with Jraenar, MA with Praetorians, war with UkraTal, MA with Xiati, P with Vaxin, war with Klingons
Romulan: war with Norak, P with Vikings, war with Jraenar, P with Praetorians, none with UkraTal, P with Terrans, P with Xiati, war with Vaxin
Klingons: P with Vikings, TA with Jraenar, none with Praetorians, P with UkraTal, war with Terrans, war with Xiati, war with Orks

lost research:
Terrans: on 125 after prop 12 & APB 8; and on 130 after Quantum Reactor & APB 10

What do think? Should I continue with this game and watch them duke it out? I am still a little bit curious what happens now with the Praetorians and the Terrans after they got so big. But I could also start a new game. Up to you.

Anyway, time for bed...
Good night,
Rollo

[Mephisto]

Personally I would be interested to see how the Terrans and the Xiati are doing in an hightech environment as some of their strength will only show up now (try to hit a Xiati ship now, you will be surprised). The angain, there are many other races to be tested. If you start a new test run make sure to include some of Tampas races as well as none of these were in the Last game. From my races only the Torons should be added.

[Rollo]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by [K126]Mephisto:
Personally I would be interested to see how the Terrans and the Xiati are doing in an hightech environment as some of their strength will only show up now (try to hit a Xiati ship now, you will be surprised). The angain, there are many other races to be tested. If you start a new test run make sure to include some of Tampas races as well as none of these were in the Last game. From my races only the Torons should be added.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay, I will run this test a little longer.

Unfortunately all spots for the next game are already taken. The races will be the Sergetti, Xi'Chung, Norak, Dra'kol, Piundon, Colonials, Rage, Vaxin, Jraenar, and the Space Vikings.

Can somebody please tell me, if any of these races have similar (near identical) AI files. So I can make room for the Torons. I was going to include the Jraenar and Vaxin again, because a) the Jraenar did so well b) the Vaxin need a second chance.

Please, let me know which race I can leave out. Otherwise I'll just roll a die http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif.

Thanks,
Rollo
edit:typo

[This message has been edited by Rollo (edited 09 November 2001).]

[Rollo]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tampa_Gamer:
Rollo- If you roll the die on one my races, take the Colonials out. Although they have some unique tweaks and a different build queue I would like publicly tested, they are for the most part a combination of the Piundon and Dra'kol AI file.

-TG<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not necessary, I'll either not use the Jraenar again or not use the Toron. I have been in contact with Mephisto and he said it wouldn't be a problem, if they weren't included. But thanks for your suggestion anyway http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif. I'll post the stats of the current game turn 140 soon and will probably start the new game tonight. If anybody has any suggestions/request about the setup please post them.

Later,
Rollo

[God Emperor]

@Rollo,
Nice to see that my Jraenar and Praetorian did so well by turn 130. The Praetorian AI is basically that of the Klingons (with different stats and politics). The Jraenar is basically that of the Romulans (again with different stats and politics).

I wasnt lying when I said that if any of my races got going, they colonise lots and build lots of ships.....
According to my calcs, the Jranar are short about 40 ships - lost them in a big battle huh? Their build list would be full of Attack Ships, I would expect..
Have just started my own new game with 20 modpack races in a 255 max planet galaxy.
Regards,
GE

PS: When you say lost research, what do you mean?

[This message has been edited by God Emperor (edited 09 November 2001).]

[Rollo]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by God Emperor:
@Rollo,
Nice to see that my Jraenar and Praetorian did so well by turn 130. The Praetorian AI is basically that of the Klingons (with different stats and politics). The Jraenar is basically that of the Romulans (again with different stats and politics).

I wasnt lying when I said that if any of my races got going, they colonise lots and build lots of ships.....
According to my calcs, the Jranar are short about 40 ships - lost them in a big battle huh? Their build list would be full of Attack Ships, I would expect..
Have just started my own new game with 20 modpack races in a 255 max planet galaxy.
Regards,
GE<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

God Emperor,
yes, they are doing really well http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif. I have noticed something about their late ship designs, though. I will send you an email about that. Have you seen the colony ship design bug, btw? And yeah, the Jraenar lost a couple of battles. They are starting to recover, though.

The Praetorians are getting bigger and bigger. They are close to becoming MEE. There are a couple of races that are murderous towards them, but who will dare to break the peace? Anyway, stats for turn 140 are attached.

fleets (in turn 140)

Vikings: 5 fleets 14 / 9 / 2 / 2 / 1
Jraenar: 2 fleets 7 / 1
Praetorians: 4 fleets 7 / 5 / 4 / 3 (that's odd with over 200 ships, isn't it? Could it be related to the fact that they are not at war with anybody, so the minister sees no reason to assemble fleets? I don't know.)
UkraTal: 2 fleets 8 / 1
Terrans: 4 fleets 9 / 3 / 2 / 1 (The Terrans had a problem with building ships for some obscure reason previously. Also they would build only defense ships. Now they have a good number of attack ships as well. Looks like the minister has been fired and replaced by someone else who knows how to follow AI files http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif)
Xiati: 6 fleets 10 / 9 / 8 / 5 / 5 / 4
Vaxin: 3 fleets 7 / 5 / 2
Orks: 2 fleets 4 / 1
Romulans: 2 fleets 4 / 2
Klingons: 3 fleets 18 / 9 / 6

loss of research:
Terrans: on 135 after Stell. Har. 3 & Weap Pl. 3; on 140 after Stell. har. 6 & Stell. Manip. 1
Xiati: 135 after SY 3 & Planet Util. 3
Romulans: 135 after prop. 9 & ripper 2

Later,
Rollo

[Rollo]

GE,
when I say "research lost" that means that I got message "All projects completed" in the log, when I check on the races every 5 turns. When all research projects are completed the remaining research points are lost.

Rollo

[God Emperor]

@Rollo,
Just spotted the post about the double colony ships http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif. Most amusing. Not sure what to do about it but my guess is that the AI would have plenty of resources (with even a low bonus)and will not suffer unduly. Looked like a pretty tough colony ship though - would probably even survive an unstable warp point!
Regards,

GE

PS: Research; what bonus setting were you using? I'll take a look at the research % settings whilst playing my current game. Thanks for your observations...

[This message has been edited by God Emperor (edited 09 November 2001).]

[Rollo]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by God Emperor:
@Rollo,
Just spotted the post about the double colony ships http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif. Most amusing. Not sure what to do about it but my guess is that the AI would have plenty of resources (with even a low bonus)and will not suffer unduly. Looked like a pretty tough colony ship though - would probably even survive an unstable warp point!
Regards,

GE<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just delete the Colony component from the misc. abilities, since you already have that as a "must have".

edit: Is the mail from your profile still used? So I can send something about the ship designs.

Rollo



[This message has been edited by Rollo (edited 09 November 2001).]

[God Emperor]

I havent raised this before but Rollo's observations have reminded me of it. Does anyone recall the fleet allocations being used correctly?
In all of my games, I have never seen an AI build a really large fleet - in accordance with the Fleet file.

Thoughts?

[God Emperor]

@Rollo,
Would gladly welcome your thoughts via email - my profile address was correct Last time I looked (I havent changed it at all).
Regards,
GE

[Rollo]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by God Emperor:
I havent raised this before but Rollo's observations have reminded me of it. Does anyone recall the fleet allocations being used correctly?
In all of my games, I have never seen an AI build a really large fleet - in accordance with the Fleet file.

Thoughts?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Jraenar had 2 fleets of around 30 ships in this game. Also I have seen 30-40 ship fleets by the Aquilaeian in other games. The Praetorian currently (turn 145) have a 49 ships fleet flying around in this game.

Is that what you mean by "really big fleets" or even bigger? It is kind of a relative term http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif.

Other than that, I can say that I have never seen the fleet minister use as many ships in the fleets as you specify in the AI files. The minister breaks up fleets way too often IMHO.

Rollo

[Atraikius]

I frequently see the Aquilian and Pyrochette with fleets around 20 ships, and have seen the Earth Alliance use some really big fleets, twice over 50 ships, once 116 ships.

[Rollo]

Hi,
I have done a few more quick turns without looking into detail much. I just wanted to see what would happen. Well, it hasn't happened very much really. Diplomacy is pretty stable at the moment. The Praetorians are still in the lead with the Terrans and Viking trying to catch up.
I will end this game now to give other races a chance. If anybody is interested in any saves or wants to know something about their races, just yell.

Rollo

[Rollo]

Hi,
I have started a new game: large mid-life without black holes, no events, 20000 resources, 3 average planets, low tech/med cost, 3000 pt empires, high difficulty, low bonus. I am using the following races added in random order: Rage, Toron, Xi'Chung, Dra'Kol, Piundon, Colonials, Norak, Vaxin, Space Vikings, Sergetti. I am playing the Pyrochette under full minister control (not getting the low bonus, so nevermind the Pyrochette's score which won't even show in the statistics).

Stats for turn 10 are posted as jpg.

diplomacy (turn 10)
Rage: war with Norak, none with Pyrochette
Toron: war with Piundon
Xi'Chung: no contacts
Dra'Kol: war with Vaxin
Piundon: war with Toron, none with Sergetti
Colonials: war with Vikings
Norak: war with Rage, none with Pyrochette
Vaxin: war with Dra'Kol
Vikings: war with Colonials
Sergetti: none with Piundon
Pyrochette (me): none with Rage, none with Norak

All races have a decent number of colonizeable planets around, except the Sergetti and the Vikings (on way leads to a nebula the other to the Colonials). The Rage have an excellent start with lots of empty planets around. As you can see a lot of early wars have broken out, so let's see what happens http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif.

The Toron have lost some research points in turn 10, because all projects were completed after they researched mines1 and PDC 2.

More later (I have to do a few PBM turns, first http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif),
Rollo

[This message has been edited by Rollo (edited 09 November 2001).]

[Tampa_Gamer]

Rollo- If you roll the die on one my races, take the Colonials out. Although they have some unique tweaks and a different build queue I would like publicly tested, they are for the most part a combination of the Piundon and Dra'kol AI file.

-TG

[Rollo]

Here are the stats and diplomacy for turns 20-40:

diplomacy (turn 20)
Rage: war with Norak, war with Pyrochette
Toron: war with Piundon, none with Pyrochette
Xi'Chung: no contacts
Dra'Kol: war with Vaxin
Piundon: war with Toron, war with Sergetti, none with Pyrochette
Colonials: war with Vikings
Norak: war with Rage, war with Pyrochette
Vaxin: war with Dra'Kol
Vikings: war with Colonials
Sergetti: war with Piundon
Pyrochette (me): war with Rage, none with Toron, none with Piundon, war with Norak

diplomacy (turn 30)
Rage: war with Xi'Chung, war with Norak, war with Pyrochette
Toron: war with Piundon, TA with Vaxin, TA with Pyrochette
Xi'Chung: war with Rage
Dra'Kol: none with Norak, war with Vaxin
Piundon: war with Toron, none with Vaxin, war with Sergetti, none with Pyrochette
Colonials: war with Vikings
Norak: war with Rage, none with Dra'Kol, TA with Vaxin, war with Pyrochette
Vaxin: TA with Toron, war with Dra'Kol, none with Piundon, TA with Norak
Vikings: war with Colonials
Sergetti: war with Piundon, none with Pyrochette
Pyrochette (me): war with Rage, TA with Toron, none with Piundon, war with Norak

diplomacy (turn 40)
Rage: war with Xi'Chung, war with Norak, war with Pyrochette
Toron: war with Piundon, MA with Vaxin, TR with Pyrochette
Xi'Chung: war with Rage, none with Pyrochette
Dra'Kol: TA with Norak, war with Vaxin
Piundon: war with Toron, none with Vaxin, war with Sergetti, TA with Pyrochette
Colonials: war with Vikings
Norak: war with Rage, TA with Dra'Kol, P with Vaxin, war with Pyrochette
Vaxin: MA with Toron, war with Dra'Kol, none with Piundon, P with Norak, TA with Vikings
Vikings: war with Colonials, TA with Vaxin
Sergetti: war with Piundon, none with Pyrochette
Pyrochette (me): war with Rage, TR with Toron, none with Xi'Chung, TA with Piundon, war with Norak, none with Sergetti

research points lost:
Toron: on turn 30 after psychic studies and armor 2
Piundon: on turn 30 after shields 2 and armor 3

As usual, if you need anything special about your races, tell me. So far everything runs smoothly http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif. I'll keep an eye on the upcoming Dra'Kol-Vaxin intel war.

Good night,
Rollo

[This message has been edited by Rollo (edited 10 November 2001).]

[capnq]

I started another test game, and decided to throw the AIs a challenge. Large Hypermaze quadrant (comparable to Ancient for AI performance), single Good planet, tech start Low/cost High, AI difficulty High, AI bonus None. I used a Medium number of random AIs with no neutrals.

When I turned the AIs to human control to look at their situations, I discovered that I haven't worked with the AIs enough to judge what's going on. Here are the scores as of turn 30 anyway.

Diplomacy on turn 30:

Mi-Go (me, 7th) - Terrans none
Earth Alliance (3rd) - Norak none, Klingon war
Norak (5th) - EA none, Klingon none
Rage (1st) - Terran war
Terran (6th) - Mi-Go none, Rage war
Klingon (2nd) - EA war, Norak none, Drushocka war
Drushocka (4th) - Klingon war

------------------
Cap'n Q
My first SE IV mod! Hypermaze quadrant (http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/Forum25/HTML/000018.html)
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu"

[PsychoTechFreak]

@Tampa_Gamer:
In the Space Empires: IV - Data/Sound/Graphic Modifications forum your entry of Nov, 7th contains the wrong attachments. Should be an update of the Sound Mod, but there are 2 AI research files.

[Rollo]

Here are the stats for turn 50 and 60 and some comments (following MB's good example http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif)

Rage: (turn 45) The Rage have colonized all the worlds close to their start and mined all the warp point leading to their space. Now they must fight to expand. There is a contested system which is a junction between the space of the Norak, Pyrochette, and the Rage , all three being at war with each other. If they manage to secure that system they will get 5 planets plus a breathable moon. Also if they can hold a planet there with a resupply depot, they will be able to launch attacks towards the Pyrochette and Norak home systems.

Toron: (turn45) They are doing a great job colonizing what they find as well as making incursions into Piundon Space. They have secured a nice piece of the galaxy around their start. Since they already have researched Ice Planet Colonization they will grow even bigger soon even without military gains.

Xi'Chung: (turn45) The Xi'Chung were the only race not molested by early wars as they are a little separated from the other races by nebulae and asteroids and have the potential to grow big. However they are not using this advantage. There are still 22 planets to be colonized in their space including a huge breathable in the same system as one of their homeworlds and a nice system with 7 colonizable planets hasn't been touched, yet. They have 33 ships, but no colonizers and none in the queue, either. They do have two nice fleets, though. Sizes are 13 and 14, one in each direction from their space.

Dra'Kol: (turn45) The Dra'Kol started right next to the Vaxin and have a war going on since the beginning. They have managed to colonize away from Vaxin a little bit, but are constantly being harassed by Vaxin raids. The war is being fought with ships as well as spies.

Piundon: (turn 45) They have a war going on with the Toron and are losing. One of their homeworlds is damaged (nice system btw, with three additional breathables) and will probably soon be cut off from the rest of their space. Maybe they can regroup and strike back, but they also have the not-so-friendly Sergetti coming from the other side...

Colonials: (turn 45) The Colonials are also a victim of an early war. They do protect their planets well with satellites and fighters, but wave upon wave of Viking ships eventually wear them down. They have lost two systems so far (one including a homeworld). What's even worse is that they have not found ways to retreat and colonize away from the Vikings as they have found a nebula on their backside and newly built ships are sent into battle instead of exploration (that's hard code).

Norak: (turn 45) The Norak started in the center and made some unfriendly contacts with the Rage and Pyrochette early on. They build tons of satellites to protect their worlds. Their systems are not really threatened by the Rage and Pyrochette due to distance and they have room to colonize away from them, but they are not building enough Colonizers, IMHO. Like the Xi'Chung they still have uncolonized plantes in secured (home)systems.

Vaxin (turn 45): In spite of the war with the Dra'Kol the Vaxin have managed to grow quite well in other directions. Their friendly relation with the Norak and Toron helps that as well. They have cut off one of the Dra'Kol home systems and if they can destroy the Dra'Kol there and secure the system they will gain 5 planets (2 of them breathable).

Vikings: (turn 45) The Vikings can only grow through war against the Colonials. There are doing a good job at that and gained two systems, but the war has been costly against the well defended planets and hundreds of fighters in the Colonial fleets. They explored away from the Colonials, but only found a nebula and an asteroid belt behind that. Ship range is not good enough to explore any further than two systems. They have three full troop transports waiting for a fleet to pick them up in the home systems, but as all fleets are currently in enemy territory or the contested systems, they will sit in orbit and do nothing for some more time.

Sergetti: (turn45) The Sergetti didn't find many planets around their start, but colonized all they could find. The only way to expand for them now is into Piundon or Pyrochette space. They have also tried to explore in another direction but cannot reach across a nebula and an asteroid belt behind that (they would find the Xi'Chung behind that, btw). They have built a lot of attack ships and have a fleet of 19 ships close to the Pyrochette border, but that is protected with mines. They have secured a good number of systems, so if they research another colonization tech soon, they can grow big.

Pyrochette (me): (turn45) Considering that the Pyrochette are not getting the low bonus for computer players, the Pyrochette are doing really great. They had a good start position and made use of it. Of course me selecting the planets helps a bit, but still very good. I reckon that if they would get a bonus, they would be among the first races in this game.

diplomacy (turn 50)
Rage: war with Xi'Chung, war with Norak, war with Pyrochette
Toron: none with Dra'Kol, war with Piundon, TA with Norak, P with Vaxin, MA with Pyrochette
Xi'Chung: war with Rage, TR with Pyrochette
Dra'Kol: none with Toron, none with Colonials, MA with Norak, war with Vaxin
Piundon: war with Toron, none with Vaxin, war with Sergetti, TA with Pyrochette
Colonials: none with Dra'Kol, war with Vikings
Norak: war with Rage, TA with Toron, MA with Dra'Kol, P with Vaxin, war with Pyrochette
Vaxin: P with Toron, war with Dra'Kol, none with Piundon, P with Norak, TR with Vikings, TA with Pyrochette
Vikings: war with Colonials, TR with Vaxin
Sergetti: war with Piundon, none with Pyrochette
Pyrochette (me): war with Rage, MA with Toron, TR with Xi'Chung, TA with Piundon, war with Norak, TA with Vaxin, none with Sergetti

More later...

Rollo

[Daynarr]

Thanks Rollo. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

I will change vehicle building files for all my races to make sure that they build enough colonizers.

[capnq]

Surprising turns of events in my test game.

Diplomacy for turns 50/51:

Mi-Go (me, 2nd/3rd) - Rage, None (despite my repeatedly killing lone scouts and unescorted colony ships); Terran, MA; Drushocka, TA/War (without any provocation at all)
Earth Alliance (6th) - Norak, NA; Drushocka, MA
Norak (5th) - EA, NA; Terran, None (First Contact on 50)
Rage (1st) - Mi-Go, None; Terran, War
Terran (3rd/2nd) - Mi-Go, MA; Norak, None (FC); Rage, War
Klingon (effectively 7th) - destroyed by EA on turn 50
Drushocka (4th) - Mi-Go, War; EA, MA

------------------
Cap'n Q
My first SE IV mod! Hypermaze quadrant (http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/Forum25/HTML/000018.html)
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu"

[Tampa_Gamer]

Psycho - thanks. That is really screwy..it was fine yesterday before I went and deleted a bunch of the previous ModPacks from my uploaded files...Hmmmm...

[Rollo]

More statistics and comments:

For the comments it might be a good idea to read the ones from turn 45 again, so you know what I am talking about http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif.

Rage (turn 80): The Rage are doing a great job. Colonizing, destroying the enemy, mining warp points, creating new planets, everything is there. Good job, AK http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif. They have managed to secure the contested system with the Norak and Pyrochette and have driven them out from the neighboring home system as well. Also they are making progress in the direction of the Xi'Chung. AK, I really love the idea of building planet creators early. I have some suggestions for improving the designs, if you like to hear them (either per email or here).

Toron (turn80): Great job by the Toron, the current leader, as well http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif. They have all colonization tech now and have colonized every world close to them. Now they are sending their colonizers everywhere. We will see how the other races like that. They have driven the Piundon from the contested systems, but have not followed them to destroy the rest as there is an asteroid belt between them now. Due to the partnership with the Vaxin they have many contacts and know a large part of the galaxy. They also have met the Rage in this turn, because they have a fleet in Pyrochette space with whom they have a military alliance. I hope we see a clash of the Titans of this game soon http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif.

Xi'Chung (turn80): The Xi'Chung had a long period of total stagnation and not used their good starting point, because they wouldn't build colonizers. I have recently changed the files a little bit (moved colonizers before attack/defense ships in the queue without changing the numbers), but as the Rage have already started to set up colonies on unused planets in the Xi'Chung home systems, I fear it is too late, because their ships are really outdated by now (mainly frigates with two seekers I).

Dra'Kol (turn80): The Dra'Kol are slowly losing the war against the Vaxin. They have been driven from one of their home systems. However, they have set up colonies away from the Vaxin in systems unclaimed by any other races and they have just discovered rock colonies. So, there is potential to regroup, rebuild and strike back. Due to the lack of colonies their Intel is not very high and so far I have not seen any project come through against the Vaxin defenses. Speaking of defenses, the Dra'Kol protect their colonies well with a mix of sats, WPs and fighters giving the Vaxin a hard time.

Piundon (turn 80): They have managed to recover their early losses against the Toron and hold their ground well now. In fact they have gained some ground and make incursions into Sergetti space. The Toron-Piundon war has died down somewhat, because there is an asteroid belt between them now.

Colonials (turn 80): The Colonials have lost all their homeworlds and have only one system remaining with a Viking fleet already in it. They did explore away from the Vikings and have met and made peace with the Dra'Kol and Vaxin, but have not settled any worlds, because they are trying to resettle the worlds they lost against the Vikings (hard code).

Norak (turn80): The Norak have lost one home system to the Rage. They are still not building enough colony ships, there are a lot of wasted opportunities to set up colonies towards the Vaxin and Dra'Kol space which will probably be taken up by the Toron soon. They have the Talisman for some time now.

Vaxin (turn80): They are making progress against the Dra'Kol and have just recently destroyed all the worlds in a Dra'Kol home system that can now be scheduled for resettlement by Vaxin colonists. That will give them a boost. Except for their vendetta against the Dra'Kol they have really good relations with all other races. Small addition from turn 90: the Vaxin have not settled the worlds in the former Dra'Kol system, yet. IMHO, they don't build enough colonizers (esp. in the attack state).

Vikings (turn 80): They Vikings have pretty much destroyed the Colonials and taken over their space. That has gained them some nice planets. One of their exploration attempts away from the Colonials has resulted in contact with the Vaxin and after some time they had a partnership with them. Now the Vikings know a lot of places to send their ships which really has more cons than pros as there are less focused on the Colonials now. Colonization attempts away from the Colonials and into Vaxin and Dra'Kol space has mostly resulted in triggering mines and has only gained one extra colony so far. They have made contact with the fast expanding Toron as well (war). That should be interesting as both races will be fighting over the Ice planets in Vaxin space. (turn90) They are in a state of stagnation for some time now as they do not get any new colonies or lose ships in battles. I think that they need to research other colonization tech sooner.

Sergetti (turn 80): The Sergetti have made good progress against the Pyrochette in breaching the minefields (resulting in some heavy losses) and driving them out of their systems. On the other hand they are losing ground against the Piundon. All the ships are tied up against the Pyrochette and the minister totally ignores the threat the Piundon are posing. That's hard coded, though. Other than making more fleets available (which also has negative effects resulting in smaller fleets) there is nothing a modder can do about that. Even if the Sergetti had an extra fleet that doesn't mean it would be used against the Piundon incursions. I guess that is just bad luck.

Pyrochette (me): (turn80) Not getting the bonus the Pyrochette are now being overwhelmed by the Rage and Sergetti. Luckily they set up some colonies deep in Toron space and if the Toron take no offense at that, this will ensure the Pyrochette survival (and I can keep this test running without interfering http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif).

diplomacy (turn 90)
Rage: none with Toron, war with Xi'Chung, war with Norak, none with Sergetti, war with Pyrochette
Toron: none with Rage, MA with Dra'Kol, war with Piundon, MA with Norak, P with Vaxin, war with Vikings, TR with Sergetti, TA with Pyrochette
Xi'Chung: war with Rage, NA with Sergetti, MA with Pyrochette
Dra'Kol: MA with Toron, MA with Colonials, MA with Norak, war with Vaxin, war with Vikings
Piundon: war with Toron, P with Vaxin, war with Sergetti, MA with Pyrochette
Colonials: MA with Dra'Kol, MA with Vaxin, war with Vikings
Norak: war with Rage, MA with Toron, MA with Dra'Kol, NA with Vaxin, NA with Vikings, none with Sergetti, war with Pyrochette
Vaxin: P with Toron, war with Dra'Kol, P with Piundon, MA with Colonials, NA with Norak, P with Vikings, none with Sergetti, P with Pyrochette
Vikings: war with Toron, war with Dra'Kol, war with Colonials, NA with Norak, P with Vaxin
Sergetti: none with Rage, TR with Toron, NA with Xi'Chung, war with Piundon, none with Norak, none with Vaxin, war with Pyrochette
Pyrochette (me): war with Rage, TA with Toron, MA with Xi'Chung, MA with Piundon, war with Norak, P with Vaxin, war with Sergetti

More later...

Rollo

[This message has been edited by Rollo (edited 12 November 2001).]

[Alpha Kodiak]

Rollo:

Thanks for the compliments on the Rage. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon10.gif You can go ahead and post any thoughts on designs here. One thought I have had was to include a repair component on the planet creators. I took a definite minimalist aproach on the Rage stellar manipulation ships.

I need to look into the Vaxin Colonization. It seems to me like they don't expand as well as they used to.

[Daynarr]

Thanks Rollo for the insight.

Could you post savegame files; I would really like to take a look at them (to check the designs and tech progress of my races).

[Rollo]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alpha Kodiak:
Rollo:

Thanks for the compliments on the Rage. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon10.gif You can go ahead and post any thoughts on designs here. One thought I have had was to include a repair component on the planet creators. I took a definite minimalist aproach on the Rage stellar manipulation ships.

I need to look into the Vaxin Colonization. It seems to me like they don't expand as well as they used to.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, repair bays was exactly my thought. At least for the create planet ships. It speeds up the conVersion of asteroid belts a little bit, as the ships only have to return to refuel. The current design has 50kt unused (that gets filled with a shield and an armor) which I would put one more solar collector and one supply storage in. I have seen in one case where the ship didn't have enough supplies. If you consider using repair bays, I think the CR hull would be good to fit extra suppies in. If you have a Quantum Reactor, a LC is big enough. Anyway, I think if you have more efficient ships you need less of them and effectively save resources (currently the Rage has 3 planet builders and another one in the queue).

I agree that the Vaxin need more colonizers.

Btw, I would consider researching Mineral Extraction3 before stellar manipulation3, so they build mining facilities instead of monoliths on mining planets. I do think it is a good idea to have the AI build monoliths on farming and refining colonies and I do that for the Vikings, too, but IMHO mining worlds should build the faster and cheaper facilities.

Rollo

[Rollo]

Daynarr,
here are all the saves from turn 10 to 120. When trying to follow what happened, please keep in mind that I have changed the construction_Vehicles on my computer for the Xi'Chung to build more colonizers around turn 75 or so.

edit: To be more specific I have changed the order, so that colonizers get built before attack ships, but didn't change the numbers.

Rollo

[This message has been edited by Rollo (edited 12 November 2001).]

[Rollo]

Sorry, no comments this time. I'll write some tomorrow. It's getting late in this part of the world...

Good night,
Rollo

[Jourin]

The Orks Research file has a typo. Repair 7 comes before Repair 3. I think the 7 should be a 2.

[capnq]

Turn 80/81:

Mi-Go (4th/3rd) - Rage, None (Rage offered TA around turn 75, and refused my counteroffer of NI); Terran, MA; Drushocka, War.
Earth Alliance (5th/4th) - Norak, War; Rage, None; Drushocka TA/War. Most of EA's construction queues shut down on turn 80 due to minerals shortage.
Norak (2nd) - EA, War; Terran, MA.
Rage (1st) - Mi-Go, None; EA, None; Terran, War.
Terran (3rd/5th) - Mi-Go, MA; Norak, MA; Rage, War. Lost 6 ships in a black hole on turn 80, with 9 more about to go in the next two turns.
Drushocka (6th) - Mi-Go, War; EA, TA/War. Once again the Drushocka go immediately from TA to War.

------------------
Cap'n Q
My first SE IV mod! Hypermaze quadrant (http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/Forum25/HTML/000018.html)
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu"

[Atraikius]

I posted an update for the Ork's AI based on comments from recent test games. Also posted the beta Versions for SFB Gorn and Kzinti until I complete filling in gaps left by available models.

[taterbill]

I'm just curious... Are the new AI's now building troops and capturing planets, or are they just glassing them over and moving on?

Thanks,

Bill

[Rollo]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by taterbill:
I'm just curious... Are the new AI's now building troops and capturing planets, or are they just glassing them over and moving on?

Thanks,

Bill<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, guys. No news today, I was too busy with other stuff. I'll try to post some more tomorrow.

Regarding the troops, I have seen a couple of the AIs build troop ships and they also have troops in the research and constuction files, but you won't see that until the late game or a game at full tech. If you want to have the AI use troops in the early game, use the Aquilaeian, Orks and Space Vikings (please correct me if I am wrong and if there are others, as I have not seen all the AIs, yet)

Rollo

[Rollo]

Before I post more statistics, let me update the current situation until turn 120:

Rage (turn120): Rage expansion has slowed down. They have colonized all planets that they have access to (plus add a few new ones), but they are having problems now expanding outward from their current territory as their colonizers are crawling towards their planets. They have met some resistance by the Norak and Xi'Chung and are hit hard by Toron intel. They have 3 warp point closers, but haven't used them, yet (Well, there is no need to do that really at this point, so that is a good thing.) I will keep an eye on those and see if they are used, if the Rage come under pressure (if that ever happens). They are currently having a deficit on minerals, because they are building monoliths everywhere, but they still have a large stockpile to use. They will have huge amounts of resources in the future.

Toron (turn120): The Toron are still sending out their colonizers everywhere and have settled some systems in war torn regions of the quadrant before any of the actual combatants did. They have huge amounts of intel that they use mainly against the Rage and a little bit against the Vikings. They have lost many ships, though because of Pyrochette mines.

Xi'Chung (turn120): The Xi'Chung are doing better now. They have stopped the Rage incursion into their systems. Because of the layout of the map they can only grow by invading the Rage.

Dra'Kol (turn 120): The Dra'Kol have the potential to grow, as they have found a nice undisturbed region of the quadrant. They have set up some colonies there a long time ago, but there is still a lot of unused planets. Perhaps they could use some more colonizers in certain AI states. Now they have not only the Vaxin, but also the Vikings to deal with that are slowly advancing into their space. All intel is currently being used against the Vaxin.

Piundon (turn120): They Piundon are holding their ground against the Toron and are advancing against the Sergetti. They have destroyed many Sergetti worlds and have now room to settle.

Colonials (turn 120): The Colonials are almost destroyed. They have only one small world left.

Norak (turn 120): They are doing better now and resettling the worlds they have lost to the Rage as well as setting up new colonies elsewhere. They have a troop transport, but that has not been filled with enough troops and is not included into a fleet, yet.

Vaxin (turn120): The Vaxin have not made much progress lately. They have suffered a little bit from a new war against the Norak and have not been able to gain much ground against the Dra'Kol. They have set up two colonies deep in Viking space on huge breathables, but still haven't settled on the planets in the former Dra'Kol home system.

Vikings (turn 120): The Vikings now have room to grow and to become big after they (almost) destroyed the Colonials. They are sending their fleets and colonizers into Vaxin/Dra'Kol space. We will see what will come from that, but the Vaxin/Vikings partnership seems to be quite stable so far. The will research rock colonization soon and resettling the former Colonial homeworlds should give them a boost as they breathe the same atmosphere. Only one of the Viking troop transports is currently in a fleet and so far they only captured one world during the war against the Colonials.

Sergetti (turn 120): While the Sergetti were busy against the Pyrochette, the have lost a large part of their empire to the Piundon. What's even worse is that they have not been able to make use of the former Pyrochette systems as the Toron were faster to move in their colonizers.

Pyrochette (me): (turn120) While almost beaten, the Pyrochette have been responsible for some heavy losses to Toron fleets with mines as well as glassing unprotected Toron planets. Please keep in mind that they are not getting the computer player bonus, as they are a human player under full minister control.

diplomacy (turn 120)
Rage: none with Toron, war with Xi'Chung, none with Dra'Kol, war with Norak, none with Sergetti, war with Pyrochette
Toron: none with Rage, MA with Dra'Kol, war with Piundon, TR with Norak, P with Vaxin, war with Vikings, TR with Sergetti, war with Pyrochette
Xi'Chung: war with Rage, TA with Sergetti, MA with Pyrochette
Dra'Kol: none with Rage, MA with Toron, MA with Colonials, MA with Norak, war with Vaxin, war with Vikings
Piundon: war with Toron, P with Vaxin, war with Sergetti, MA with Pyrochette
Colonials: MA with Dra'Kol, TR with Vaxin, war with Vikings
Norak: war with Rage, TR with Toron, MA with Dra'Kol, war with Vaxin, MA with Vikings, TA with Sergetti, war with Pyrochette
Vaxin: P with Toron, war with Dra'Kol, P with Piundon, TR with Colonials, war with Norak, P with Vikings, TA with Sergetti, P with Pyrochette
Vikings: war with Toron, war with Dra'Kol, war with Colonials, MA with Norak, P with Vaxin
Sergetti: none with Rage, TR with Toron, TA with Xi'Chung, war with Piundon, TA with Norak, TA with Vaxin, war with Pyrochette
Pyrochette (me): war with Rage, war with Toron, MA with Xi'Chung, MA with Piundon, war with Norak, P with Vaxin, war with Sergetti

More later...

Rollo

edit: typos

[This message has been edited by Rollo (edited 13 November 2001).]

[Alpha Kodiak]

Is there a deadline for when we have to get final Versions of AIs in? I am testing and balancing a few changes that I made based on the excellent comments made by Rollo and Master Belisarius in their test games, and I want to make sure that I get them done and in on time.

Typical programmer - need to know when the deadline is so that I can push things to the very Last minute.... http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif

[oleg]

I think there may be some general setup problem with TDM-Mod Pack:

As most people already know, there is a bug/feature which cause problems with random race picking: SEIV does not allow a race to have several advanced traits with combined points exceeding the race set-up limit, even if you make up deficit buy reducing race traits.
Example: if you have Aquileans (organic+advanced storage=2500) as a random race in 2000 game, it will start with organic trait only and 1000 points left unused. At the same time, Rage (advanced storage+propulsion expert=2000) will have all points utilized.

Of course, as documented by Master Belisarious in the readme files of Aquelians and Pyrochette , it can be easily solved by always using .emp files for such races. This is nice and simple when you have one or two problematic races, but look on TDM-Mod pack -
Aquelian, Narn, Pyrochette, Shadows, Ukra-tal, Toron, Xiati and may be some more races all have advanced traits worth 2500 at 2000 strart.

Thus, when I start a new game I have few options:

If galaxy is huge, I can pick all these races .emp files and still have enough room to put few random races. No big deal.

However, If galaxy is medium/small and/or I want only few AI races I have a dilemma:
Either disable random AI generation and pick up exactly what races I want eliminating quite a big slice of game randomness and fun or, if for some silly reason I want some elements of surprise and uncertanity, take a risk that one or more races will start with 1000 handicap !

Therefore, I propose that all TDM-races should be changed to accomodate this bug/feature. Of cource, .emp files can still be set as intended, but AI_genral.txt files changed. After all, it is in moddler' own interest that his/her race will not nave a 1000 penalty if it is used as a random race in TDM-Mod Pack !

Oleg

[Rollo]

Alpha Kodiak,
if you are making changes anyway, consider putting a Quantum Reactor on the colony ships before cargo storage. The reason for the current slow expansion of the Rage in my test game is that most of the colonizers are out of fuel.

Rollo

edit: typo

[This message has been edited by Rollo (edited 13 November 2001).]

[Alpha Kodiak]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rollo:
Alpha Kodiak,
if you are making changes anyway, consider putting a Quantum Reactor on the colony ships before cargo storage. The reason for the current slow expansion of the Rage in my test game is that most of the colonizers are out of fuel.

Rollo

edit: typo

[This message has been edited by Rollo (edited 13 November 2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is in my set of changes underway. Both the Vaxin and the Rage will have LC based colonizers with either quantum reactors when available, or extra supply storage. Tests with the Vaxin are looking good so far.

The only downside comes in a full-tech game. The first colonizers are coming out with quantum reactors even though they are only going a short distance. They are more expensive than necessary, though fortunately, Space Yard IIIs can still produce them in 2 turns.

[Rollo]

Alpha Kodiak,
yeah I know. That is some waste of resources in full tech games. One way around that would be restricting the maximum size to be built in the *very* early game to 310kt and not include Quantum Reactors in normal colonizers, since you are using advanced colonizers with LC hulls later that will carry them. I have run into a similar problem with the Vikings who use CR for advanced colonizers (couldn't fit all the goodies that I wanted into a LC http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif). I don't really want them to be built in the early full tech game, so I set the "maximum ship size from start" in the settings.txt to 410 for the first turns. However, there seems to be a (possible) bug with that. The AI will not use the specified settings in a game with sim movement, turn based works fine. I have posted that some time ago, but got no confirmation on it (Well, I didn't get any answer that it Does work, either. So I guess nobody bothered to check). If somebody could try to reproduce that, I would appreciate it. I just don't want to send in a bug report that has not been confirmed by at least one other person.

Mephisto, I have noticed that in the beta patch4 the Orks/Krill use the 33s again for the research. That had been fixed in patch3, but has somehow crawled back in (maybe it is deliberate, so just ignore me if that is the case http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif).

Oleg, I agree with what you said about the advanced traits in the general.txt file.

Rollo

[Rollo]

New Statistics up to turn 150:
The Vikings have taken the lead now. That means we have three big empires now of about equal size and all of them are not really fond of each other. No major battles, yet, as all of them are pretty far apart. The overall situation hasn't changed much, though.

Sorry about no more information, I wanted to post this yesterday, but couldn't get to the forum. Don't have time to write more now.

Rollo

[capnq]

Aquilaeian_AI_General.txt has a typo:

Race Opt 2 Num Characteristics should be 11. The 4th and 5th characteristic are both numbered 4, so the 5th thru 11th should be renumbered.

At some point, the Ork .emp files changed name formats; if you used the beta updates, you have duplicate files named "Ork_2000" and "Ork 2000", etc. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>As most people already know, there is a bug/feature which cause problems with random race picking: SEIV does not allow a race to have several advanced traits with combined points exceeding the race set-up limit, even if you make up deficit buy reducing race traits.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'm not certain this is an accurate description of the "bug". It was stated in another thread that the random empires are chosen from the .emp folder; it appears the race settings from AI_General files aren't used there. It isn't clear to me where the race options are used; the Quick Start page looks at the AI_General files, but Quick Start is always a 2000 point game. Race Options 2 and 3 are never called by the software, AFAICT.

I went through and checked all the .emp files via Add Existing to a 5000 point start. Every ModPack race spent exactly as many points as labelled; all the original races that haven't been modified for the ModPack only have 2000 point Versions.

------------------
Cap'n Q
My first SE IV mod! Hypermaze quadrant (http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/Forum25/HTML/000018.html)
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu"

[This message has been edited by capnq (edited 15 November 2001).]

[geoschmo]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Stated by OlegAs most people already know, there is a bug/feature which cause problems with random race picking: SEIV does not allow a race to have several advanced traits with combined points exceeding the race set-up limit, even if you make up deficit buy reducing race traits.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Stated by CapnqI'm not certain this is an accurate description of the "bug". It was stated in another thread that the random empires are chosen from the .emp folder; it appears the race settings from AI_General files aren't used there. It isn't clear to me where the race options are used; the Quick Start page looks at the AI_General files, but Quick Start is always a 2000 point game. Race Options 2 and 3 are never called by the software, AFAICT.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Actually I believe Oleg stated the bug pretty well, but I believe it's bug that was fixed in 1.41. Is it back? I haven't played with ai's in a while.

Random placed empires do not use the .emp files. I know that for a fact. Regardless of whether it's a standard or quick start game. They do use the ai_general files. The only use of .emp files is if you specifically place them in the players screen at game startup.

Geoschmo

[Deathstalker]

Tried to post this yesterday but the forum would not let me on.

Anyway. I am playing with the Beta Update Version 3 of the new TDM Modpack, Medium Tech start and the Terran race is still using APB II at turn 57. I assume this is due to the 'med tech start' as you start off with APB II's there.

Just thought I'd let you know. (they still hold the #1 spot in the game besides this, with my Y'Gath AI firmly in 2nd.)

------------------
"We are all...the sum of our scars"....(paraphrased) Matt. R. Stover-'Blade of Tyshalle'.

"Human existance is all imagination...Reality is no more than a simple agreement among its participants that this is where we shall meet, and these are the rules that we shall abide by."- Kevin McCarthy/David Silva "The Family:Special Effects"..

"Long Live the Legion!!"-Comic book fandom...

[Vildecor]

An interesting problem I've come across:

A "Range Error" will occur after using the combat simulator when playing with the Sergetti. It doesn't matter which ships you use. It does not happen when simulating Sergetti ships as another race.

Vildecor

[Alpha Kodiak]

I have posted updated Versions of the Rage and Vaxin in the Mod forum. They address some of the issues that came up in the test games. Let me know what you think!

[Master Belisarius]

Goeschmo: the patch 1.41 not fixed all the problems with the random AI generator. Take a look and you will see.

Capnq: Thanks for the report about the typo in the Aquilaeian_AI_General.txt!!

Rollo: I forget to test "maximum ship size from start” with simultaneous movement… But I’ll do it!

Oleg: thanks for the suggestion and can understand your view, ok?
But I will keep the original general.txt like the save files for three reasons:
1) I hope that MM will fix it some day.
2) Although the race will be a bit more strong because will use 1000 extra points, still will be more weak than the *.emp race.
3) With the current bug, I think that if somebody want to play against a challenging race, most the time is forced use the *.emp files. Then, if somebody want to play with random races, should use 5000 points for the AIs or assume that will play against more weak races.

[geoschmo]

MB, I see what's happening. It used to not decrease characteristics that you had set below 100% in the general text file. It appears he has that part working, but it won't use the extra points in selecting the other attributes. This has been reported to Aaron that it is still not working right?

Geoschmo

[Alpha Kodiak]

For a more in depth discussion of the problem with the AI_General file and randon generation, see this thread:
http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/Forum23/HTML/004084.html

[Mephisto]

Racial Points Bug:
This one has been reported and will be taken care of in the next SE4 Patch.

To Deathstalker: Yes, you are correct. I noticed this behaviour myself when I set up a medium Tech game in the past. But unfortunately there is really no way around it, so. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif

To Vildecor: I tried to reproduce the bug but it worked fine for me. Might be a problem on your PC. Anyway, thanks that you reported it, that's the only way we can be sure it is not a general problem. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Deathstalker]

Q"To Deathstalker: Yes, you are correct. I noticed this behaviour myself when I set up a medium Tech game in the past. But unfortunately there is really no way around it, so. "

The only way around this I can see is by making a seperate attack/defense ship that has ABP's and has a line in the 'must have' for a component that is discovered around the same time as the APB's. This way the normal attack/defense ship can not have the APB's listed in it's weapon types. Maybe using the 'scanner jammer' as a must have?? (did'nt look close enough to see if it is developed around the same time.) Or maybe limit it by ship size (ie, if APB's and BattleCruisers are developed around the same time then have APB's added only after BC's are discovered).


Just some ideas....

------------------
"We are all...the sum of our scars"....(paraphrased) Matt. R. Stover-'Blade of Tyshalle'.

"Human existance is all imagination...Reality is no more than a simple agreement among its participants that this is where we shall meet, and these are the rules that we shall abide by."- Kevin McCarthy/David Silva "The Family:Special Effects"..

"Long Live the Legion!!"-Comic book fandom...

[Mephisto]

You could do this but there is a drawback, too (there is always one http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif): If anyone "gifts" the AI very good weapons in a multiplayer game (like I use to http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif) then the AI will not use it the whole time until it develops it anyway. I think I will let it rest as it is as I think not to many people are using the med. tech start.

[chewy027]

quote by myself
"BTW do you want to include the vandron in the new cd burn alpha?"

qoute by alpha kodiak
"Have to ask the TDM guys what they think. I don't know if they want to add another race this late in the process, but I think the Vandron would do well if it was added."

"Tampa, Daynarr, Mephisto, what do you guys think? I can have the final AI done by tomorrow night. Do you want to add the Vandron to the Modpack?"

[Q]

There seem to be races in the TDM-ModPack (Beta5Update), that are a little bit neglected like the Amon'krie:
Their research file still contains 100% min tech area percent projects, which makes them lose research points without benefit.
And in the design vehicle file there are such absurdities as shield regeneration for weapon platforms, that have no shields in their design!
So I think their AI files should be carefully controled or the race removed from the ModPack.

[Tampa_Gamer]

Q - The Amon'Krie are not one the modified races. They are included in the mod directory so that they will still be used as a random race, just as the other original non-modded races are. I think what you are seeing are differences betwen the actual original races and what the AI modders have been doing over the Last year.

Chewy - sorry for the delay in getting back to you. Please understand this is a very hard response for me to write. Our problem is one of capacity. In the beginning, for each new Version of the TDM-ModPack, it used to take Mephisto, Daynarr or myself only a few hours to finalize the proper directories, update the readme, TEST, bug the various authors for quick fixes and finally upload to the site. Lately, and especially this Last time, the time involved was close to 20+ hours (Mephisto correct me if am wrong), we have to actually use spreadsheets to keep track of authors/Versions/files and this does not even include modding our own races! Over the past month, we have had to make hard decisions and tell people (even those who already have races in the ModPack) that we do not have any more capacity. So unfortunately at this time we are sort of at capacity. Now, if the public at large is screaming for us to add a race that is kicking everyone's collective butt (that is how the Rage got added B/T/W) we may have to reconsider this policy.

Some people want us to just add the majority of the races out there so the ModPack would consist of 60+ races to choose from. But then all we would be doing is zipping up the files and passing all of the problems to the Users. There would be no quality control, no testing, Versions would never come out on time b/c we would be waiting for x or y's latest tweaks, etc.

Sorry for the long-winded response, but Mephisto and I have been getting this question a lot lately and instead of just replying to you via e-mail, I thought it better to let everyone know where we stand.

Now having said all that, I would like to see the Vandron included on the next CD run, so be sure to post them in the "DEFINITIVE MOD" thread.

Thanks
-TG



[This message has been edited by Tampa_Gamer (edited 18 November 2001).]

[Vger]

Hi,

And now a word about Orkses ...

Just wanted to post here and say that I'm having a grand time trying to beat back an Ork invasion. I'm only a year and a half into my game. To my north is a neutral race and a galactic dead end. To the south are the Orks, who showed up about 3-4 months into the game.

Their fleet is bigger, they have bigger ships and I'm winning battles by the skin of my teeth. They're building CL hulls while I'm building DDs. They're using DUC5s have armor and now self destruct devices. (I've been spending points on my racial techs: Borg and Temporal.)

BTW, this is with hard cp oponents and no bonus, 5000 points 10 good planets, low tech-high cost. I think I'm starting to get a handle on this, but it's still nip and tuck. Fortunately, I have a few boarding ships.
Just wanted the Orkses creator to know.

Ciao,
V'ger gone

[chewy027]

hey tampa no problem just thought i'd ask http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif i understand completely. As long as Alpha Kodiak agrees i'll gladly post them in the definite mod section. Thanks

[geoschmo]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Q:
There seem to be races in the TDM-ModPack (Beta5Update), that are a little bit neglected like the Amon'krie:<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tampa_Gamer:
Q - The Amon'Krie are not one the modified races. They are included in the mod directory so that they will still be used as a random race, just as the other original non-modded races are. I think what you are seeing are differences betwen the actual original races and what the AI modders have been doing over the Last year.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This really demonstrates the awesome job you guys are doing. The Amon-krie are one of the few default AI that do reasonably well in non-mod games. The fact that the ModPack AI are so much better than them is very interesting IMHO.

Geoschmo

[This message has been edited by geoschmo (edited 19 November 2001).]

[Alpha Kodiak]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chewy027:
hey tampa no problem just thought i'd ask http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif i understand completely. As long as Alpha Kodiak agrees i'll gladly post them in the definite mod section. Thanks<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

By all means, go for it! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon6.gif

[Jourin]

Tampa,

Please consider my culture mod for the mod pack. With culture values working properly, they can now have an impact.

The cultural values where not balanced. I weighted the values based on how many racial points where needed to achieve the same
value. Some cultures actually penalized you.

Using neutral as a base with the value 2 in every field, I determined the max point value for the cultures, the equivalent of 800 points. Then I balanced the cultures to all equal the same value. Neutral is now a balanced and truly playable culture.

Attached is the excel spreadsheet that I used. I did some weird experimentation with the Xenophobes, but the values could be changed as long as they are balanced.

The wrong files got posted in previous Posts by my - sorry about the confustion.

[Q]

Tampa Gamer said:
"Q - The Amon'Krie are not one the modified races. They are included in the mod directory so that they will still be used as a random race, just as the other original non-modded races are. I think what you are seeing are differences betwen the actual original races and what the AI modders have been doing over the Last year."

So why nobody tried to improve these races too? I think that if you use the TDM-ModPack you don't want to play against such weak AI empires, even if they are picked as random computer players.

[Mephisto]

I'm sorry, Jourin, but the TDM-ModPack contains only AI races. Nearly all the TDM-Modders have a Mod of the game to some extend but we want to provide a Pack anyone can install without any problems normally related to installing a MOD that changes the data files (compatibility, game balance...)

[Mephisto]

Well, any Modder can just make that many races and keep them up to date. And on a closer look, there are only a few "original" races left. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Q:
So why nobody tried to improve these races too? I think that if you use the TDM-ModPack you don't want to play against such weak AI empires, even if they are picked as random computer players. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Jourin]

Tampa, I understand. I was just trying to provide balance by correcting the inbalances in the original Culture.txt

[oleg]

Klingon' 2k .emp file has advanced power conservation racial trait instead of natural merchants. Since AI-construction file is tuned to the default natural merchant Klingons, AI does't build any space ports when Klingons are selected via .emp file. Not good http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif

[Mephisto]

I just uploaded the final Version of the TDM-ModPack 2.00 to the scenario board. Have fun!

[ 02 December 2001: Message edited by: [K126]Mephisto ]</p>

[CW]

Mephisto, that zip appears to be corrupted. Can you upload it again?

[Tenryu]

Thanks Meph.

[Tenryu]

YUP, CW's right, it's screwed. "Invalid file structure" error here.

[ 02 December 2001: Message edited by: Tenryu ]</p>

[dumbluck]

Winzip says:
"Error [&lt;file path on my hard drive&gt;]: start of central directory not found; Zip file corrupt. Possible cause: file transfer error. Please press F1 for help.

Doing so brings up this winzip help file:
"Message WZ54

This error occurred during internal Zip processing. Correct the error and retry the operation."

I hope that helps.

[Rollo]

yep, some problem here.

I had the same problem with the "outta control" Mod. Maybe the uploads don't work correctly. (Just guessing here).

Rollo

[CW]

Richard, no good... the problem is still there. My 4th copy of the file is still faulty. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[Richard]

He just reuploaded it, the old copy was corrupt because of the problem I described.

[Mephisto]

Ok, I uploaded the file again, it is now working (thanks, Richard!).

[ 10 December 2001: Message edited by: [K126]Mephisto ]</p>

[Tenryu]

Richard, Meph, Thanks again.

[Mephisto]

The files are correct, something is wrong with the download. I tested it with 3 zip files and all were corrupted after the download. I have mailed Richard about it.

[Richard]

Okay the issue has been fixed. Problem was that NT (I HATE MICROSOFT!!!) makes a distinction between binary and text files on the OS levels and Perl was confused and thought all binary files were text.

Anyway it's fixed http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .