MBT's [Archive] - Page 6 - .com.unity Forums

FASTBOAT TOUGH

November 8th, 2021, 03:15 AM

Well I see it's been awhile. Making our house much improved for either us or a new home owner, we :dk: yet.

Anyway, I've held on to this for awhile now. It might be of some interest to someone.

My biggest take on this is dealing with the HESH round which, I believe there was some discussion on in late Spring this year. I seem to remember it dealt with it's effectiveness.

Having looked into this further and beyond the ref. given below AND not remembering the final outcome, I just want to make sure we're doing "right" by the HESH round as there appears to be a big difference in the overall performance of the round based whether it's fired from a Smooth Bore or Rifled tank gun. From the ref. below...

"Unlike many other militaries’ armoured units, the British Army continue to use a rifled gun, as their primary tank ammunition is of the high explosive squash-head (HESH) type. HESH ammunition is used both as a general-purpose high explosive projectile, and also against other tanks and armoured vehicles. When HESH ammunition is fired from a rifled barrel, spin imparted to the projectile helps ensure a predictable distribution of the plasticised explosive filler, and thus maximises its efficiency in the anti-tank role."

I just don't know if this is a "thing" or not, as I tend at times to come across these kind of "novelties" every once in awhile.
http://characterisationexplosiveweapons.org/studies/annex-d-115-120-125-mm-tank-guns/

And as a "side bar" I've been following the Ukrainian situation from the beginning and dealing with their equipment for almost as long.

This has been on my mind for least 3-4 years now. It "crystalized" for me after watching the wonderful and predicted outcome of the Afghan National Army. As has been discussed concerning the evacuation, the combat performance of the Army was the same as the South Vietnamese once we fully pulled out.

Several NATO countries have been training all aspects of the Ukrainian forces since about the beginning of 2015. We all know what happened in 2014.

They unlike the two above, are fighting to defend their country since the start hostilities while still training to meet NATO training standards for both combat and equipment effectiveness since.

I am both, recommending and requesting consideration that the games "MORALE" for the Ukraine be increased accordingly.

I further suggest that 2020 (And this is not something I "pulled out of my...") to be an appropriate date for such a change if feasible.
https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/265244.html
https://112.international/article/sergeants-role-in-armed-forces-of-ukraine-training-according-to-nato-standards-24850.html
https://www.ausa.org/articles/mission-ukraine-us-army-leads-multinational-training-group-counter-russian-threat
https://coffeeordie.com/ukrainian-troops-train/
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/topics_37750.htm
(For this ref. click on the "blue arrow" for further info as required at the end of this article.)

I know this is a big request that deserves from me solid refs for which I hope the above will suffice for now. THANK YOU.

Now I'll go back into my "rabbit hole" :D.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

FASTBOAT TOUGH

November 8th, 2021, 09:28 PM

I guess much earlier this morning that the "EXPRIENCE" would logically need to be readjusted as well for the UKRAINE as not posted in my last. :doh:

SORRY!!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

DRG

November 9th, 2021, 06:57 AM

The way the code is set up 2010 is the last date for a change in EXP or MOR.
MBT goes by decade and the last Decade is 2010.

That said it had been higher then was lowered in 2018 to reflect what was known then

In the meantime, anyone wanting to play Ukraine post 2020 does have the longstanding game option of dialling in a troop quality number they think is more appropriate in Preferences and it can easily be changed in a scenario using Scenhack

blazejos

November 26th, 2021, 06:09 AM

T-72M1R view from top in actually camo green-black-sand and with skirts rear and rear-sides

https://ocdn.eu/pulscms-transforms/1/B0Bk9kpTURBXy9hMzBlODAyZjI3NGJhYzk2OTk0ZDg3NTQ3MmN mYzBmOC5qcGeRlQLNA50AwsOCoTAFoTEB

FASTBOAT TOUGH

December 28th, 2021, 01:47 AM

How concerned is Russia about "Top Attack" weapons of all types? Just read the following...
But before you do, note these are in VERY limited numbers and ONLY in the Crimea.

Also, it doesn't look much stronger than "Slat Armor", good against RPG's not so good against tandem warheads with modern penetrators.
https://defence-ua.com/news/vs_rf_zahistili_svoji_tanki_vid_javelin_ta_bayrakt ar_tb2_zsu_foto-4174.html
(Ukrainian source.)

I do believe someone brought this up 3-4 months back I believe. Your translator will work if needed.

ALSO, EGYPT wants to produce the K2. We already know (Or should.) that Poland passed on it in favor of the SEP V3, however, it made it to the final two (As the K2NO.) in NORWAY against the German LEO 2A7.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_december_2021_global_security_army_in dustry/egypt_holds_talks_with_south_korea_to_produce_loca lly_k2_main_battle_tank.html

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Pibwl

January 3rd, 2022, 12:58 PM

Hungary

021 Leopard 2A7V - currently scheduled for 2023 (now 10/22). The name reportedly is 2A7HU.

As a temporary measure, 12 Leopard 2A4HU were delivered between 7-12/20.

BTW, Hungary bough also 24 PzH 2000HU howitzers, expected in 2022.

Somewhere in this thread 2 years ago:
Andy I just haven't gotten around to posting them yet. Hungry has actually 2 LEOPARD issues going on at this time.

First they are getting 12 completely refurbished German LEOPARD 2A4 tanks of which the Primary purpose is to used for training crews on much newer tank to come next para. Secondary purpose would be combat, in light of the 2-3 year gap between models.
.

FASTBOAT TOUGH

January 3rd, 2022, 10:29 PM

Well, I should address the last post first, those dates are good as posted for now and I concur with them. The German LEOPARD 2A7V is still going through the OPEVAL process at this time. Going back to 2018 from my files.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/december_2018_global_defense_security_army_news_in dustry/kmw_to_deliver_leopard_2a7_and_leopard_2a4_mbts_pz h2000_to_hungary.html
https://milmag.pl/en/assembly-of-hungarian-leopard-2a4-mbts/
https://www.armyrecognition.com/germany_german_army_heavy_armoured_vehicle_tank_uk/leopard_2a7_mbt_main_battle_tank_urban_operations_ data.html
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_july_2020_global_security_army_indust ry/new_hungarian_leopard_2a4_mbt_main_battle_tanks_di splayed_in_germany.html
https://militaryleak.com/2020/07/30/germany-delivers-first-upgraded-leopard-2a4hu-main-battle-tanks-to-hungary/
(AGAIN, FIRST TANK delivered.)
https://defence24.com/hungarian-leopard-mbts-unveiled-what-was-the-cost-analysis
(Note the articles above describe them as the LEOPARD 2A7+.)

A couple of the above were posted, however, since they don't have them, I'm not as concerned about posting much on them.

But I see FROM THE ABOVE POST, it looks like they have them and we're already changing dates. It should also be clear now that HUNGARY is NOT getting the LEOPARD 2A7V. LEOPARD 2A7+ is simply an improved 2A7.

NORWAY: From my last the next day this, never mind here's what I got...
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_november_2020_global_security_army_in dustry/norway_to_buy_k2_thunder_or_leopard_2a7_mbt_main_b attle_tanks.html
https://www.armyrecognition.com/weapons_defence_industry_military_technology_uk/k2no_main_battle_tank_proposal_from_south_korea_hy undai_rotem_for_norwegian_army.html
(A TANK-PROTOTYPE) (Also whether it's the K2NO or LEOPARD 2A7, it's expected they'll be fielded SOMETIME in 2025.)

THAILAND: This is a "preemptive strike", before someone else sees this and determines that Thailand has retired their M-41A3 tanks. Only this unit in the article title has. From the ref.-
"The Royal Thai Army’s 6th Cavalry Regiment, 3rd Cavalry Brigade, now operates the Chinese-made NORINCO VT4 main battle tank. The cavalry battalion, which originally operated the M41A3, has now switched to other vehicles. The 8th Cavalry Battalion. 3rd Infantry Brigade, received the M48A5 tanks from the 2nd Cavalry Battalion, 2nd Infantry Brigade, the King's Guard, that has received T-84 Oplot-T main battle tanks.

At present, it is understood that the last tank cavalry battalion that still uses the M41A3 light tank is the 4th Cavalry Battalion, 1st Royal Guard Brigade, Defense Studies writes."
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_january_2022_global_security_army_ind ustry/royal_thai_army_16th_cav_bn_retires_m41a3_light_ta nk_and_switches_to_v-150_commando.html

I'm only here to help, I have more data than you think and would be happy to provide it in the appropriate thread as needed.

Anyway, Grandson just today started College at SCAD in Savannah(!!), Daughter is here holding up well, so far, thank God for CINCLANTHOME! And I couldn't be prouder!! :D

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Pibwl

January 4th, 2022, 12:16 PM

The German LEOPARD 2A7V is still going through the OPEVAL process at this time. ...

A couple of the above were posted, however, since they don't have them, I'm not as concerned about posting much on them.

But I see FROM THE ABOVE POST, it looks like they have them and we're already changing dates.

Note, that what they already got is Leopard 2A4, named 2A4HU, not 2A7HU. They were delivered between 7-12/20 and entered service in 25th Mech Brigade.
2023 date for A7HU is according to Hungarian author's article from 2021 Polish magazine.

Speaking of Leopard 2:
Poland

26 Leopard 2A5, 31 Leopard 2PL - for several years (not known closer) Poland has some of DM-63A1 ammunition as well, so a performance (and name) of 120 mm Mesko gun (pen. 82) should be the same as appropriate German gun, but I don't know which one (120mm L44 WG01 with pen. 86?). "Mesko" is wrong name in this case, because Polish Mesko works produce only own PZ-531 APFSDS, but according to Polish military press, its performance is "probably similar" to basic DM33 round (surely not much better).

Leopard 2PL might receive a new icon, if you would bother - it has different turret (A4 with aditional armour) - https://www.konflikty.pl/aktualnosci/wiadomosci/kolejne-leopardy-2pl-trafia-do-wesolej/ picture:https://www.facebook.com/pancerni23/photos/w-przypadku-modernizacji-polskich-leopard%C3%B3w-2a4-ca%C5%82o%C5%9B%C4%87-prac-projektowych-dokumen/1839630339523031/

Regards
Michal

blazejos

January 7th, 2022, 10:08 AM

Some info about polish WZT (wóz zabezpieczenia technicznego) (vehicle of technical assistance) ARV for armoured units which existing in polish OOB they were widely exported and not used only by Poland

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WZT

ARV

WZT-1 build on T-55 chassis since 1970 first polish indigenous engineering armoured vehicle whih have some roots in soviet BTS-2 never exported only used by Poland also as base chassis to build SP Neva SC

here nice photos of restored WZT-1 for Museum http://www.muzeumwp.pl/woz-zabezpieczenia-technicznego-wzt-1.php

<a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:WZT-1.jpg#/media/File:WZT-1.jpg"><img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/40/WZT-1.jpg" alt="WZT-1.jpg"></a> By Unknown author - <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="http://www.mon.gov.pl/pliki/Image/obrazki_do_stron/strona_76_wzt1.jpg">http://www.mon.gov.pl/pliki/Image/obrazki_do_stron/strona_76_wzt1.jpg</a>, <a href="//commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:WZT-1.jpg" title="Attribute to Polish Ministry of National Defence">Attribution</a>, <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=3242019">Link</a>

WZT-2 improved variant this time build on T-55A chassis. Since 1973 in LWP. Poland have 600 of them now around 80.
Export customers

Iraq most destroyed in war 1991
India 196 vehicles
Yugoslavia late 80's still 16 vehicles used by Serbia probably was sold more vehicles.

<a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Polish_WZT-2.jpg#/media/File:Polish_WZT-2.jpg"><img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e7/Polish_WZT-2.jpg" alt="Polish WZT-2.jpg"></a> By <a href="https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministerstwo_Obrony_Narodowej" class="extiw" title="pl:Ministerstwo Obrony Narodowej">Ministerstwo Obrony Narodowej</a> - <a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="http://www.mon.gov.pl/pliki/Image/obrazki_do_stron/strona_76_wzt2.jpg">http://www.mon.gov.pl/pliki/Image/obrazki_do_stron/strona_76_wzt2.jpg</a>, <a href="//commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Polish_WZT-2.jpg" title="Attribute to Polish Ministry of National Defence">Attribution</a>, <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=4489199">Link</a>

Nice photo of WZT-2 in LWP service
https://i.pinimg.com/600x315/91/0c/4a/910c4aef40fb34fd31b54e7c34fa5279.jpg

WZT-3/ WZT-3M introduced in 1988 on T-72M chassis after test in 1986-1988. around 20 produced for Poland used until 2003 when all polish vehicles were upgraded to WZT-3M more unified with PT-91.

Yugoslavia buy in 1989 40 vehicles from poland with license rights to production know as M-84AI locally
Croatia still have vehicles from former Yugo army
Serbia still have vehicles from former Yugo army
Kuwait they buy them together with Yugo tanks M-84A in 1989 they were from their production lines as M-84AI
India they buy 228 in years 2004-2007 WZT-3M and in year 2011 production rights for 204 vehicles so they have totally 556 WZT-3M

here manufacturer website with data https://bumar.gliwice.pl/en/strefa-militarna/o/wzt-3m

WZT-3M in polish units new camo
https://live.staticflickr.com/4837/47002516451_e208890087.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2eBsbAF)WZT-3 armoured recovery vehicle (https://flic.kr/p/2eBsbAF) by Adrian Kot (https://www.flickr.com/photos/junktimers/), on Flickr

WZT-3M n polish units older camo
<a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:POL_Warsaw_WZT-3.jpg#/media/Plik:POL_Warsaw_WZT-3.jpg"><img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/POL_Warsaw_WZT-3.jpg" alt="Ilustracja"></a> Autorstwa <a href="//commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Hiuppo" title="User:Hiuppo">Hiuppo</a> - Praca własna, <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0" title="Creative Commons Attribution 3.0">CC BY 3.0</a>, <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=2588332">Link</a>

And here in Indian service
https://www.bharat-rakshak.com/ARMY/Galleries/Mod/Logistics/Engineers/0612.jpg.html

WZT-4 this time based on PT-91 chassis
as for now not used by Poland only 6 vehicles in Malaysia

Malaysia they buy them together with PT-91 they have 6 vehicles of WZT-4

here manufacturer website with data https://bumar.gliwice.pl/en/strefa-militarna/o/wzt-4 (https://bumar.gliwice.pl/en/strefa-militarna/o/wzt-4)

https://bumar.gliwice.pl/storage/offers/April2019/NiFHa9LCkIoTx1reQPO3-cropped.jpg

WZT-5 also know as ARV 3 PL
here Bumar proposing vehicle based on Leopard chassis as for now not introduced to polish army is still in development but is possible tht will be a AVR vehicle for Polish Leopard units
https://bumar.gliwice.pl/en/strefa-militarna/o/wzt-5

https://bumar.gliwice.pl/storage/offers/April2019/qFdoIGW2eISH0VdJZqMj-cropped.jpg

Engineering Vehicles

B-72 Klon build in late 70's early 80's based on WZT-2 with special manipulation device and PWL-D boxes Mine-clearing line charge devices on both sides build only in small number for LWP but more just only a prototype used by Polish army.

source https://docplayer.pl/13981391-Osiagniecia-obrum-sp-z-o-o-jako-jednostki-badawczo-rozwojowej-w-zakresie-wojskowego-sprzetu-inzynieryjnego.html

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16550&stc=1&d=1641577944

MID (Maszyna inżynieryjno-drogowa) know also as Bizon-S
Production based this time on PT-91 parts and chassis is some why crossover of WZT-3M with WZT-4 with manipulation device. To Polish army introduced in 2000 in number 7 vehicles.

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16551&stc=1&d=1641578268

In 2003 also 3 vehicles introduced to Malaysian army together with PT-91 and WZT-4. Malaysia received modified version MID-M

In April 2021 also Polish army modernised their MID 5 vehicles to standard MID-M 4 was left in older version

source https://obrum.pl/modernizacja_mid/

Photo of MID-M for Polish army
https://obrum.pl/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/MID-2020-scaled.jpg

Pibwl

January 7th, 2022, 05:33 PM

MID (Maszyna inżynieryjno-drogowa) know also as Bizon-S
Production based this time on PT-91 parts and chassis is some why crossover of WZT-3M with WZT-4 with manipulation device. To Polish army introduced in 2000 in number 7 vehicles.

We already have the last one (#240).

FASTBOAT TOUGH

January 18th, 2022, 02:33 PM

I'll be brief, even for me!?! I've gotten a better picture on what's going on with the USMC MAIN ARMOR situation with this "representative" article. And I quote:

"At the time of the initial overhaul announcement, the Corps had 452 tanks at its disposal. By December 2020, 323 had been transferred to the Army. The *remaining tanks were scheduled for transfer by 2023, which included tanks in overseas storage and aboard maritime prepositioning ships, according to Marine Corps Systems Command."

By my count that currently leaves the USMC with 123 MBT's of these "survivors" it would be safe to assume that the FEP series are the ones still with us in the active/overseas storage/prepositioning ships. All others should have an END of DEC 2020

But "On the Fly" recommend the following changes for the FEP.

1. UNIT 464 leave as is for now.

2. UNITS 465 & 466 CHANGE/END to DEC 2023 IAW article vice DEC 2020//

3. Again all others should be gone by DEC 2020. This, however, DOES NOT include Engineering models.

If you want me to "comb" through the USMC OOB for "stragglers" you need to let me know.

Remember these service times publications get their information from the military component they represent for their active duty service members and DOD civilian workers that read these papers.
https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/your-marine-corps/2021/03/22/goodbye-tanks-how-the-marine-corps-will-change-and-what-it-will-lose-by-ditching-its-armor/

I'm off to see the wizard!?! I just don't know about that "OZ" thing though!?! ;)

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

DRG

January 18th, 2022, 04:11 PM

846 is a "104 CS MBT " M1A1HC FEP-T and 847 is a 59 MBTM1A1HC FEP-T that exist to 12/2025

Those are the only ones that still extend the MBT and CS MBT formations to 12/2025 ( Mount a plow on the front and the are " Engineering vehicles")

464 is a UC 106 used in the "Urban MBT" formations

MarkSheppard

January 27th, 2022, 09:15 PM

For Ukraine...(OBAT 079)

Per Wikipedia
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_equipment_of_the_Ukrainian_Ground_Forces)

Following heavy tank losses in the 2014 war + cold war, a lot of recapitalization of the Ukrainian tank fleet has been going on -- they were forced to bring back the T-80 due to losses in T-64s.

T-80BV M19 - T-80BV modernized with the same basic package as the T-64BV-2017 (Unit 030 T-64 Bulat M17). No official designation, but since the first unit was delivered in January 2019...I'm going with T-80BV M19. As of March 27, 2020 over 88 updated T-80BVs have up been delivered to the Ukrainian military since January 2019 at a rate of circa 6 tanks per month.

DRG

January 28th, 2022, 08:49 AM

Done. With new Icons

halstein

January 29th, 2022, 11:30 AM

ALSO, EGYPT wants to produce the K2. We already know (Or should.) that Poland passed on it in favor of the SEP V3, however, it made it to the final two (As the K2NO.) in NORWAY against the German LEO 2A7.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_december_2021_global_security_army_in dustry/egypt_holds_talks_with_south_korea_to_produce_loca lly_k2_main_battle_tank.html

Regards,
Pat
:capt:
The K2 and Leo 2A7 are currently being tested in Norway, if our newspapers are to be believed. It has not been without discussion among Norway's top brass, as some of them considers tanks to be obsolete.

FASTBOAT TOUGH

February 18th, 2022, 02:17 PM

POLAND: The sale of the M1A2C (SEP V3) has apparently been approved pending sign off by the President. Don't get too excited, Para 5 will put that into perspective...
"Implementation of this proposed sale will require approximately (22) U.S. Government and (52) U.S. contractor representatives to travel to Poland for a duration of up to five years to support equipment fielding and training. "

1. These tanks will have to be built without adversely interfering with our current Army production requirements.

2. These same tanks will have to BE RESET to replace our more advanced electronics (FCS etc.) and have the DU armor removed
and replaced by either with an Applique or Ceramic armor package, normally of the foreign sales end user's discretion.

3. I would expect that a foreign sale M1A2C (SEP3) armor package would "fall in" about where the USA M1A2 SEP armor package is. Also TI/GSR 45 would make sense as well.

This will take time. We are HIGHLY unlikely to see Poland getting these fielded before DEC 2025.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_february_2022_global_security_army_in dustry/us_approves_the_sale_of_250_m1a2_sep_v3_main_battl e_tanks_to_poland.html

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

FASTBOAT TOUGH

March 8th, 2022, 02:21 PM

The following is a "quick look" of the known tanks involved in the Ukrainian War.
ISSUES POTENIALLY:

Russian - T-80U carrying 7 more rounds of ammo versus the T-80BV.

Ukraine - The issue appears to be the type ATGW some of their tanks carry versus what I believe we show in the OOB. There seems to be more reliance on the Russian ones (Which they had several 100's of or more.) vice their own ones. A random check on http://www.military-today.com/ a Ukrainian based site seems to support this conclusion as well.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/ukraine_-_russia_invasion_conflict_war/analysis_russian_and_ukrainian_main_battle_tanks_m bts_in_ukraine_conflict.html

We've just made (28 Feb.) a major decision/move from about a little more than an hour up the road from me. They should be on the way now.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/analysis_focus_army_defence_military_industry_army/us_secretary_of_defense_austin_orders_1st_armored_ brigade_combat_team_to_europe_.html

They should have the M1A2 SEP V2.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

DRG

March 8th, 2022, 04:08 PM

https://www.armyrecognition.com/analysis_focus_army_defence_military_industry_army/us_secretary_of_defense_austin_orders_1st_armored_ brigade_combat_team_to_europe_.html[/B]

They should have the M1A2 SEP V2.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

They should have as in they don't but they should or They should have as in that's what they likely have

https://www.armyrecognition.com/images/stories/analysis_focus/analysis/US_Secretary_of_Defense_Austin_orders_1st_Armored_ Brigade_Combat_Team_to_Europe_.jpg

.. somebody tell me what version is pictured here. I'm sure there is rivet someplace that is the clue but IDK where to find it

Karagin

March 8th, 2022, 10:08 PM

SEP2, the CROWs system box is the giveaway.

FASTBOAT TOUGH

March 9th, 2022, 03:36 AM

The "latter", needless to say, I hit the shower as soon as I posted my last. Felt it was but didn't have time to verify it.

My concern was that it wasn't a M1A2 SA which were both, finishing the OPEVAL and were later for a time posted at Fort Stewart Ga. as well.

I did post about the OPEVAL issue during the time period leading up to the ABRAMS "rabbit hole" in verifying what ABRAMS tanks were actually still in service with the USA.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Karagin

March 9th, 2022, 09:32 AM

I need to find the article, but back in 95 they tested ERA on an Abrams and the results were not that impressive. I am wondering if given how things are going with the ATGMs that are being used more of late if they won't come back to this or go a different route to add another layer of protection for the next version of the Abrams or which every new tank is set to replace it?

FASTBOAT TOUGH

March 15th, 2022, 01:15 AM

This is making me feel really good about that JUN/OCT 2023 date for the M1A2C (SEP V3) the following is the second unit to receive this tank. The Spartan Brigade, 2ABCT, US 3rd Infanty Division is getting them now along with the modernized M2A3 BRADLEY just up the road from me (~1hr.+) at Ft. Stewart Ga.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_march_2022_global_security_army_indus try/spartan_brigade_2abct_us_3rd_infanty_division_rece ives_modernized_m1a2_sepv3_abrams_and_m2a3_bradley s.html

The first unit as posted by me was the and as taken from the below ref... “Greywolves” of the 3rd Battalion, 8th Cavalry Regiment, 3rd Armored Brigade Combat Team, 1st Cavalry Division are the first US Army unit to operate the M1A2C, the latest version of the M1 Abrams main battle tank. They received their M1A2Cs at Fort Hood, the 1st Cavalry Division’s home base. " this occurred in Jul 2020. The update I have in my files was from this past OCT 2021 that they were conducting firing testing/qualifications.
https://www.overtdefense.com/2020/07/23/greywolf-brigade-first-to-operate-m1a2c/
https://www.army.mil/article/238575/greywolf_brigade_first_to_receive_new_abrams_tanks

This good news for us we're getting can't say the same for the Russians and their ARMATA. Wouldn't be ironic if we see the VT4 in Ukraine? :eek:

Nothing would surprise me at this time. :D

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

DRG

March 15th, 2022, 01:20 AM

FASTBOAT TOUGH

March 15th, 2022, 12:37 PM

Leave it alone for now, I saw the same in game. Though NOT from Army sources, I'm seeing a very small number of sites stating it has reached FOC. Some of this I've already "deconflicted" simply by the firing qualifications ongoing last OCT. as I just posted from an Army source.

As you well know, this an issue we've had to deal with more times, it seems, than we can count in the past.

For sure of the tanks, I listed almost ten years ago now, that I expected to see before games end, I know we WILL NOT see the following:
LeClerc XLR and CHALLENGER 3.

In the category of HIGHLY UNLIKELY the ARMATA, ALTAY (Towards end of last year, they were seeking a contract to buy engines from S. Korea which I believe is now completed. I've stated many times over the years this was a major impediment for this tank to overcome.) and the ARJUN Mk2 which of the three mentioned might have the "best shot" to get in. Go figure!?! :shock:

And finally, the SURPRISE was the German LEOPARD 2A7V awesome piece of engineering and a game changer in the real world. That being said the unit receiving it WILL NOT be fully equipped with it until APRIL 2022. see below ref. 2 for further breakdown and my thoughts on this tank. They deploy for 2 years in OCTOBER 2022 as a NATO Rapid Reaction Force 2022/24
https://www.bundeswehr.de/de/organisation/heer/aktuelles/heavy-metal-neuer-leopard-rollt-vom-band-146788
(They moved fast.)
https://www.bundeswehr.de/de/organisation/heer/aktuelles/kampfpanzer-leopard-2-a7v-jetzt-in-der-truppe-5220262
(Upper right note date of article 16SEP2021.
Other 8 due by APRIL 2022.
Allowing for ongoing training/qualification and of those crews JUNE 2022 better for FOC.)

Thats all the tank status I have in a "nutshell" hope it helps for your planning.

Washout: Leave M1A2C alone for this year.

Tracking rest after LeClerc and CHALLENGER 3 (Not happening).

And finally, CHANGE START to JUN 2022 for LEOPARD 2A7V.

Back to work today. :smirk:

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

DRG

March 15th, 2022, 01:30 PM

If anyone finds expert analysis ( NOT "joes blog" analysis unless "joe" is renowned for accurate analysis) on the availability and use of Arena and Shtora systems in Ukraine please post the link.

Andy and I are both thinking that perhaps we have them a bit too effective in the game and I am still of the mind that these are not as common as we were led to believe

HOWEVER

This

https://defense-update.com/20130925_a-new-arena-aps-debut-at-rae-2013.html
New Arena-3 APS Debut At RAE-2013

shows this

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16650&stc=1&d=1647366498

and that IS what's shown here on the right side of the turret

https://images.newrepublic.com/ae14329108a5ca9c1971c773accf39ca12c23d46.jpeg?auto =compress&ar=3%3A2&fit=crop&crop=faces&fm=jpg&ixlib=react-9.0.2&w=958&q=65&dpr=1

That is also what is mounted on the Photo of MID-M in post#1263

DRG

March 15th, 2022, 01:36 PM

And finally, the SURPRISE was the German LEOPARD 2A7V awesome piece of engineering and a game changer in the real world. That being said the unit receiving it WILL NOT be fully equipped with it until APRIL 2022. see below ref. 2 for further breakdown and my thoughts on this tank. They deploy for 2 years in OCTOBER 2022 as a NATO Rapid Reaction Force 2022/24
https://www.bundeswehr.de/de/organisation/heer/aktuelles/heavy-metal-neuer-leopard-rollt-vom-band-146788
(They moved fast.)
https://www.bundeswehr.de/de/organisation/heer/aktuelles/kampfpanzer-leopard-2-a7v-jetzt-in-der-truppe-5220262
(Upper right note date of article 16SEP2021.
Other 8 due by APRIL 2022.
Allowing for ongoing training/qualification and of those crews JUNE 2022 better for FOC.)

\
And finally, CHANGE START to JUN 2022 for LEOPARD 2A7V.

Back to work today. :smirk:

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/germany-orders-israels-trophy-active-protection-system-for-its-leopard-2-tanks.718103/

Germany orders Israel’s Trophy active protection system for its Leopard 2 tanks

That was posted last year so thinking I need to make a change to the 7V at least

Karagin

March 15th, 2022, 02:06 PM

Small idea, what about treating each level of the EW for tanks similar to smoke dischargers?

Right now if you want just close in defense you get 2 and those are popped off by HMGs and other things beyond missiles and main gun rounds. Same for level 3. So what if it was done similar to the smoke dischargers in the game?

FASTBOAT TOUGH

March 16th, 2022, 03:02 AM

Leopard 2 TROPHY order.

Mine from February 2021 ...
Ref 1/Para 4
"KMW told Janes on 23 February that it would install the systems on Leopard 2A6M3 tanks through to 2023. A KMW image of the tank after the upgrade (Will be.) designated it as the Leopard 2A7A1."
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/germany-orders-trophy-aps-for-bundeswehr-leopard-2s
(Later in the morning added ref. What happens when you're tired? :o)

Mine from March 2021 ...
Ref 2/Para 1
"The 23 Trophy systems and 586 interceptors that Rafael has agreed to sell to Germany will cost $48 million."

Last Para. Just read it. this is in its "infancy" at this point.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_march_2021_global_security_army_indus try/rafael_trophy_active_protection_system_to_equip_ge rman_leopard_2_mbts.html

This is an item to be TRACKED with no further action required at this time. You (and Andy both.) have enough "headaches" at this time, with no need to make a migraine headache. :sick:

Didn't know I had a medical degree did you!?! Well I did sleep at a Marriott (Not a Holiday Inn Express guy!) a couple of weeks ago. :p

Bottomline that's the last I heard about TROPHY for LEOPARDS.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

FASTBOAT TOUGH

March 16th, 2022, 08:03 AM

Added that JANE's ref. to last. Tired then and now. Crawling back into the rack. :D

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

FASTBOAT TOUGH

March 19th, 2022, 02:50 AM

THE FOLLOWING ARE NOT ACTIONABLE!! UPDATE/INFO ONLY!!

A little reverse order filing based on significance both militaria and politically.

ITALY: Keeping them relevant to 2030/35 the C1 ARIETE is currently in trials to determine which or both packages will constitute the final upgrade. From the article...
"Citing information from the "War Thunder" forum, the C1 Ariete AMV program will feature 3 prototypes at first, the AMV PT1, which will feature improvements to the hull, the PT2 which will feature improvements to the turret, and finally the PT3 which will incorporate improvements to both the turret and hull." We are LIKELY to see this.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/weapons_defence_industry_military_technology_uk/italian_army_starts_trials_of_ugraded_c1_ariete_am v_mbt_main_battle_tank.html

BAHRAIN/INDIA: I just posted my thoughts on the within my last two posts. If this gets done, it'll just bolster my prediction for the ARJUN Mk 2 going into service with India. As a reminder, the Indian Army wouldn't compete any version of their T-72 tanks against the ARJUN. And it dominated both the Russian and Indian built T-90S tanks. Leading an Israeli military observer to call/praise the ARJUN after the competition the "Desert Ferrari" Still feel LIKELY to see this, more so if this deal gets done.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_march_2022_global_security_army_indus try/bahrain_has_launched_talks_with_india_to_procure_a rjun_mk_ii_main_battle_tanks.html

TAIWAN: Looks like this is moving forward. Taiwan is to receive 2 M1A2T tanks stateside in June 2021. These will be used to train the trainers from TAIWAN. These WILL NOT be as good as the as our M1A2 SEP V2 as this article purports it to be. I already know what modifications to make against the M1A2 SEP V2 I submitted a few years back. Delivery According to the Taiwanese Ministry of National Defense, 38 tanks will be delivered in 2024, 42 in 2025, and 28 in 2026.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_march_2022_global_security_army_indus try/bahrain_has_launched_talks_with_india_to_procure_a rjun_mk_ii_main_battle_tanks.html

WE NEED TO WAIT ON THIS LAST. Who knows what was said yesterday between Biden and Xi? The real question is, what price is to be paid to keep China from supporting Russia in its war with the Ukraine? It's not the first time we've been down this road with tanks for Taiwan. We haven't sent them any in decades.

ALRIGHT...
Last Order from you know who if you follow me...
300 M-60A3 Patton-2 tank Ordered 1996 Delivered 1998-2002 (300) Second-hand; $223 m deal; M-60A3TTS version

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

DRG

March 19th, 2022, 04:35 AM

BAHRAIN/INDIA: I just posted my thoughts on the within my last two posts. If this gets done, it'll just bolster my prediction for the ARJUN Mk 2 going into service with India. As a reminder, the Indian Army wouldn't compete any version of their T-72 tanks against the ARJUN. And it dominated both the Russian and Indian built T-90S tanks. Leading an Israeli military observer to call/praise the ARJUN after the competition the "Desert Ferrari" Still feel LIKELY to see this, more so if this deal gets done.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_march_2022_global_security_army_indus try/bahrain_has_launched_talks_with_india_to_procure_a rjun_mk_ii_main_battle_tanks.html

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

OK.... that link specifically says

The main armament of the Arjun Mk II main battle tank consists of a 120mm rifled gun fitted with a thermal sleeve, fume extractor, and a muzzle reference system. The gun is able to fire a full range of ammunitions including FSAPDS (Fin Stabilized Armor Piercing Discarding Sabot), HESH (High-Explosive Squash Head), PCB, TB, and the Israeli Laser Homing Anti-Tank (LAHAT) missile. Laser Homing Attack Missile, or LAHAT, is an advanced missile developed and manufactured by the MBT Division of Israel Aerospace Industries

So........ this long delayed unit should have LAHAT ?

FASTBOAT TOUGH

March 19th, 2022, 12:20 PM

That was the original requirement going back to the ARJUN however due to technical issues that didn't happen. The ARJUN Mk1A was also to have an ATGM capability as well. The ARJUN Mk 2
is ready to support an ATGM however whether it'll be the LAHAT or their own is still up for debate. They just last fall completed tests of an ATGM similar to the JAVALIN with a variant of the same, I believe, to begin testing this year if not already.

My bottom-line: We still don't know if we'll see this tank at all, though recent information as posted is more in favor of it happening. But when?

You and I well know Indias overall history of their tank procurement and especially concerning the ARJUN series. I believe the last date change we settled on was sometime late this year I believe.

If it is and to give us some "breathing room", I would at this point, NOT include ATGM and push back the START of the following to DEC 2024 for the following...ARJUN Mk 2, ARMATA (And associated IFV.) and ALTAY for the same reason of breathing room and to deal with all the STILL unresolved issues those projects have yet to get well, resolved.

I'd rather "go long" and be wrong then short and having to keep fixing these START dates that we've been doing for how many years now, for these tanks in particular.

I know you know that I've been watching these tanks for ten years or more and nothing's changed but the dates for various reasons. ;)

Lunch, Shower and Work. The rest of you have a GREAT DAY!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

DRG

March 19th, 2022, 01:03 PM

Pat, no matter what we do , no matter how we try to estimate how things will develop it is a drop dead certainty that

1/ someone will disagree and **MAYBE** actually present a good reason why backed up with sources but probably not
2/ Somewhere down the road " reality" will paint a different picture

FWIW both Indian units 21 and 22 now carry 6 LAHAT

FASTBOAT TOUGH

March 20th, 2022, 03:22 PM

Don,
Well, I think we can agree we both have made some valid points in our combined last two posts. And I know when the time comes, you'll make the changes as required.

You've never in the past "accused" me of lacking in providing a sufficient number of references on anything I've submitted in the past, especially when it pertains to those submitted more "formally" in my Fastboat Patch Post Thread. Though on rare occasions been informed of the opposite, as in "too many"!?! :D

How could you possibly have too many!?! :rolleyes:

We've lived with it this long, I guess I can keep that up until we're done, I'll ASSUME in the Spring of 2026 with the last patch.

So even now I like to ride a carousal once in a while, something relaxing about it to me, maybe that's a better frame of mind to be while doing this work as my second job as it feels at times. We'll just have to keep reaching for the brass ring to equipment, dates etc. etc. as good as we can get it.

That's what motivated me to do this in the first place, I can't even remember how long ago now, it's just sad to me it's taken a war to get me motivated again though.

It seems I've posted more since JAN then I did all last year.

Long way to say, I CONCUR and THANKS to ANDY and you for doing the HEAVY LIFTING.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

FASTBOAT TOUGH

March 21st, 2022, 02:10 AM

Karagin

March 21st, 2022, 11:14 AM

No matter how good your tanks or aren't, if the crews aren't trained and lead properly you will at least in the onset of hostilities pay the price. But I'll leave that to people smarter than me to present that discussion...
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=CBS+NEWS+VIDEO+%22Russia%27s+once+fearsom e+tanks+bogged+down+in+Ukraine%22&docid=13848080717812&mid=5995E6871EE9376942FE5995E6871EE9376942FE&view=detail&FORM=VIRE
https://video.foxnews.com/v/6301297691001#sp=show-clips

Both are worth the time to watch and listen.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Having been part of a training of Afghanistan Army tankers, yeah...the state of and about how well trained the crews and their support is, yes that is VERY important. I have never seen a group of grown men being unable to grasp simple things like putting fuel in a vehicle or putting the correct fuel into a vehicle. The point I am getting at is many countries do not train their military to any standard beyond looking great during parades. Also, we (the West) need to stop thinking that everyone else trains their military as we do.

DRG

March 21st, 2022, 03:26 PM

I have reviewed and in some cases revised the EXP and MOR ratings and they now also include the 2020s... previous to this it was 2010 -> but what I found ( or more importantly did NOT find ) is any info on what is important to the game and that is comparative training or troops and the quality and experience of NCO's and mid-low level officers.

Nothing..... nada

What I do find are "big" picture ratings like a "pwrindex" which means NOTHING to the game. It was a hugely frustrating exercise just like it was at the start and every time since.

There may be anecdotal stories of how an army trains or how often but finding things like that is scarce

Karagin

March 21st, 2022, 07:07 PM

FASTBOAT TOUGH

March 21st, 2022, 09:56 PM

Want to enjoy the rest of this evening but, I came across another tank that was on my list which I kind've felt wasn't gaining any real traction as far as getting into the game especially after the MERKAVA 4b WINDBREAKER entered service (A planned interim tank to the following.) but now that's changed!! MERKAVA 5 BARAK!! :party: Cmon, you had to know that was coming!
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_march_2022_global_security_army_indus try/merkava_5_barak_mbt_main_battle_tank_to_enter_serv ice_by_2023.html

One of my favorite tanks (Because I spent over half a page of revisions to it a few years ago in you know where.) the STRV 122 series appears to be getting what I believe is a NEW tank round the 120mm M339 that Israeli tanks now have.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_march_2022_global_security_army_indus try/elbit_systems_to_provide_120mm_ammunition_for_swed ish_army_stridsvagn_122_mbts.html
https://elbitsystems.com/landing/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/Catalog-Tanks_15_Web.pdf

Well, can you guess what's coming next!?! :shock: :p :D :ahh::rock::banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:

Well I'm sure Don will at this point will agree, this would be a good time for to start watching "Viking Valhalla" personally I blame Ancestry (You know who.) for updated their DNA tech and databases, 17% Swedish!?! Someday I'll tell the story behind it from my Mom from her Grandmother during the bombing campaign over Cologne Germany.

Regards,
Pat
:capt::capt: (Sometimes better than one.)

FASTBOAT TOUGH

March 28th, 2022, 12:57 AM

Here we go again!?!

This was visited within a handful of years ago OR LESS, because someone had issues, we chased this down to "the dirt under a paved road" I like that :D anyway, I also have numbers for the T-55.

T-55:
https://weaponsystems.net/system/631-T-55AM
(With COMPLETE armor values.)
https://weaponsystems.net/system/632-T-55AMV
https://weaponsystems.net/system/634-T-62M
(This tank is sometimes confused with the T-55 the distinction between them is in the bore evacuator and road wheel spacing - verified.)
https://weaponsystems.net/system/887-115mm%20U-5TS
(T-62 MG.)
https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar/ussr/soviet_t-55.php
(Yes, I see the disclaimer image that a little honesty from a legitimate website. Also, a pretty good foreign data section. The numbers are below that.

Steel is Steel, I think most will understand this is common to most serial production tanks and upgrades versions of the same as plainly stated in ref. 1.

Don, I have a request to add to the many you both have been getting lately, my birthday is on 28 June hawse about the patch being released for my birthday!!!????!!! :D :) :cool: you know what's NEXT (Kind've obvious I guess?)... :birthday: :party: :doh: :doh: (These last two are Andy and Don getting a headache.)

So, in the short term may I suggest the following...
Connect via whatever, seat down and enjoy some :popcorn: (Nuts are optional.), have plenty of these :cheers:, don't get :sick: and :puke: finally if we ever see the patch released :rolleyes:, let me be the first to...

THANK YOU BOTH FOR YOUR PATIENCE TO ALL AND WHAT I FEAR TO BE ONE OF YOUR "HARDEST" WORKING YEARS. WELL DONE TO YOU BOTH AND GOD HELP YOU BOTH I FEAR A COMEBACK FROM SOMEONE ELSE. here's to you BOTH with as MUCH RESPECT as you've shown me over the years. :clap::clap::clap::first::first::clap::clap::clap:

We really need to do something about all these E-M-O-E-JOES!?! MAYBE NEXT YEAR!?! :doh:

Someone's getting a VERY numbified mouth later today and I'm glad it won't be me!! ;)

Regards,
Pat
Oh yeah, celebrating another successful inspection/exercise by our combined team at work so...
:capt: :capt:

DRG

March 28th, 2022, 05:15 PM

THANK YOU BOTH FOR YOUR PATIENCE TO ALL AND WHAT I FEAR TO BE ONE OF YOUR "HARDEST" WORKING YEARS. WELL DONE TO YOU BOTH AND GOD HELP YOU BOTH I FEAR A COMEBACK FROM SOMEONE ELSE. here's to you BOTH with as MUCH RESPECT as you've shown me over the years. :clap:

Thanks

We really need to do something about all these E-M-O-E-JOES!?! MAYBE NEXT YEAR!?! :doh:

Yes, you really, really. Really need to lift that finger after the first one ( really.......)

FASTBOAT TOUGH

March 29th, 2022, 02:09 AM

While looking into some T-80 issues I found this.
https://defence-blog.com/russian-t-80-tanks-to-receive-soft-packages-with-explosive-reactive-armour/?amp

How easy it is to stuff them with heavy stock paper. As has been discussed elsewhere.

It won't be hard (Assuming some efficiency is in place to track these.) to go back and figure out who was involved in sabotaging those ERA bags. Note the timeline and limited use tanks that apparently have them.

It's now 0230 quite awhile after the above. I got up to Page 35 looking for those missile posts, so my guess of ~3 years might not be to far off.
I did come across some posts more into the first mention in the 1st and 3rd ones listed the rest are deeper.

Post 164 RELIKT ERA
Post 232 "Deep" VARTA Soft Kill (OPLOTs)
Post 281 SPIKE LOS, I think this was brought up for Ukraine? NO they don't.
Post 301 "Deep" Seems I got the ball rolling on these the T-72B3 which is thought to be the most prevalent Russian tank in Ukraine and ARENA-E

I gotta go back to work this afternoon, I'm sorry but I'm done.

Hope some of this helps.

After all those pages I've forgotten about how long ago I started tracking some of this equipment that's still NOT at FOC.

Sometimes you need to look back, to look ahead.

Good Night!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

FASTBOAT TOUGH

April 3rd, 2022, 02:46 AM

My last post covered pages 1 - 35 of this thread.

Because of newer information in some cases not yet posted (Ariete as an example.) I'm reposting some items. Also, there'll be "PROCESS related " posts to benefit newer and maybe some older players to understand what goes into some of the decisions made about certain aspects of the game, i.e., how and when we got beyond TI/GSR 40. Plus, what we knew then that truthfully hasn't changed in the present or will in the near future. I leave that to you the reader to decide.

I will not offer nor engage in any commentary on any of the following the data that is good still and most was "actionable" when submitted. As the reader should note the page count, dates, what pages are left to go through and finally the information I still hold unposted that will change very little from what's below. I have, as with the last post I HAVE BOTH SCANNED EVERY POST TO DATE AND READ VERY ONE OF THE FOLLOWING SELECTED ONES AS WELL.

The following cover Pages 35 - 65 of this thread.
Post 363 ITALY ARIETE C2/C3 were not executed.

Post 381 POLAND 2PL

Post 400 Mine Protected Tanks See also 394 & 401

Post 409 Hard and Soft Kill (Data posted was taken directly from the now dead links. So much for "Nothings dead on the internet.!?!"

Post 415 DU Armor Started.

Post 423 T-80 visited again, you HAVE TO continually TRACK, TRACK, TRACK.

Post 435 DU Armor

Posts 447/449/450 TI/GSR & HOW WE GOT THERE.

Post 473 "Deep Miner"

Post 490 Process

Post 519 One example of "How Far Have I Gone"

Post 555 Patience

Post 564 Italy ARIETE Again

Post 577 T-55/T-62/T-80

Post 584 T-55

Post 587 Go Back & Check Data

Post 646 Plausible Deniability

Post 651 Ukrainian ZASLON

Post 658 Ukrainian ZASLON

Was put together about four nights ago, my apologies for the delay in posting.

For those who really challenged me and supported me through those last 65 pages, besides the obvious, John (IMP), Suhiir, MARCELLO, Mark Sheppard and the ORIGINAL MRAP Club that thread is where I "Cut my Teeth" out here.

Later today will be "Another Day". ;)

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

DRG

April 3rd, 2022, 05:22 AM

Pat

HONESTLY....... I do not know WTF you expect us to do with that information

I DO know for absolute certain that I do not have the time nor the inclination to go back to each and every one of those posts and guess what it is you are trying to point out or how it is supposed to be applied to the game

There are not enough hours in my day as it is

The simple bottom line fact is..... when confronted with a mass of data like that I just move on so it is totally self-defeating to post something like that so save yourself a lot of time and trouble as I personally do not have the time to wade through it all and IDK who else any of it is relevant to.

OK?

If you have a specific point to make then make it short and sweet otherwise save yourself ( and me ) a lot of time and aggravation.

FASTBOAT TOUGH

April 4th, 2022, 03:57 AM

The following was an item that was brought up as an issue needing further clarification on Ukraine's ATGW missiles. This source will be/is better than what we have because it's made by...
https://ukroboronprom.com.ua/

Under the "umbrella" state arms supplier UKROBORONSERVICE (Russian counterpart Rosoboronexport) both listed below if you want to buy a tank.
https://en.uos.ua/
https://roe.ru/eng/

Here specifically are all things ATGW's from Ukraine.
https://en.uos.ua/produktsiya/vooruzhenie-i-boepripasi/33-protivotankovie-vistreli-s-upravlyaemoy-raketoy-kombat-i-konus

Highlights of KOMBAT as used on the following tanks: "...T-72, T-80UD and OPLOT main battle tanks equipped with fire control systems compatible with it."

"The missile’s tandem warhead enables it to defeat targets fitted with explosive reactive armor with a first-round hit probability of 0.8-0.9. " If you "split the difference" that makes the minimum average hit probability at 85%.

This is important from Para. 2 ...
"The KOMBAT has four-fold-out fins at its extreme rear and offers an effective range of 5,000 m which it covers in 17 seconds (That's fast in the world of ATGW's at that range). With a mass overall of 30 kilos, the missile is far heavier than Russian counterparts, such as the 125mm REFLEX with a maximum range of 5,000 meters, and the BASTION which fires from 100mm rifled guns to ranges of up to 4,000 meters. A tandem shaped-charge warhead makes up almost half of the KOMBAT’s length, allowing a heavier explosive payload to be delivered to the target. The warhead weighs 9kg, including a 3kg explosive charge (it is by far heavier than the warhead featured in the REFLEX), contributing considerably to the missile’s armor piercing capability, which, again, much exceeds that of the REFLEX.

It is important the reader understands that the Ukraine had operated these missiles (REFLEX) for a VERY long time and still does as far as I can determine. Just like also they built those tanks for the Russian army that are using them now in country, a little "irony" there.

Quick notes: 5000m effective range/3kg explosive shaped charge tandem hollow charge warhead/750mm armor penetration behind ERA. You can "substitute after it penetrates the ERA, it'll still go through 750mm of steel armor. I wouldn't want to be in a tank without any ERA, because that would probably be your last day in that tank.

All other ATGW missiles are listed on in the right-hand column including helo, 105mm, 100mm and other systems including 30mm ZTM-1/ZTM-2 AC.
https://en.uos.ua/produktsiya/vooruzhenie-i-boepripasi/33-protivotankovie-vistreli-s-upravlyaemoy-raketoy-kombat-i-konus

The above was originally posted on August 29, 2017 @ 12:07am Page 68 Post 676. I verified the sites are current, though posted before in other past posts the Russian sites were added this fine early morning. :rolleyes: The data has not changed, though as I seem to remember a couple of items weren't service at the time of posting.I could be wrong about that though. All weapons have been in service since 2017 or before.

Point Made.

Before I go, look what I found? You'll notice one of the sources for the "doubters" is SIPRI, imagine that from the Congressional Research Service. Anyway, a good read on the Russian weapons industry ordered by Congress as things were heating up late last Fall in the Ukraine.
https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/R46937

Well, it's 0350 here which begs the question, do you know where your bed is? I'm going to try to find mine. . :D

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

FASTBOAT TOUGH

April 4th, 2022, 09:14 PM

I think I saw a Russian tank that supposedly is operating in Ukraine that I haven't seen until MAYBE this evening. At this time, I will not divulge the type I believe I saw. I will say it might be a T-80 type, however, I feel it's something else based on only the view from the news feed.

You have to go to where you can watch "The CBS Evening News" w/Norah O'Donnel for 4 April 2022. You'll need to be ready at the 6m 30s mark to freeze/or slow the video before the 6m 38s mark. The tank in ? will be moving through a bombed out residential area from Right to Left on your screen. Also note a couple of trees between you and the tank as it's moving.

I'll provide my answer in a couple of nights. In fairness Don will be informed before that. It's not a game just seeking input/opinions on the matter.

Saw a Ukrainian tank (T-72) towing on the road (CNN) a undamaged fairly new looking Russian tank that it seems the crew just abandoned for whatever reason possibly just ran out of fuel. It was filmed in Eastern Ukraine. Crazy! They didn't even attempt to disable it.

For you Scenario and Campaign builders, I'm also reposting the following here. This is normally a paid subscription item for FREE for I don't know how long.
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/ukraine-crisis

I better get to watching Vikings Valhalla or CINCLANTHOME will ensure all future posts will be coming from there!?! :viking:

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

DRG

April 5th, 2022, 06:03 AM

Karagin

April 5th, 2022, 10:55 AM

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/45027/ukraine-situation-report-czech-republic-to-transfer-56-upgraded-bmp-1-armored-vehicles-to-ukraine

This is the article I was speaking about for the BMPs.

DRG

April 5th, 2022, 11:15 AM

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/45027/ukraine-situation-report-czech-republic-to-transfer-56-upgraded-bmp-1-armored-vehicles-to-ukraine

This is the article I was speaking about for the BMPs.

The only thing different game-wise would be the Pbv-501's had the anti-tank missile launch system removed. I can certainly add a version as a Pbv-501 without the missile guessing it will be sent in as-is which means a 50/50 chance of right or wrong. There are already ATGM equipped ones in the OOB now

http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product4355.html

NOTE "army guide" uses both 501 and 502 as a description

The main differences between the Pbv 502 and the BMP-1 are as follows:

Removal of the launcher rail for the Koloma KBM 9K11 Malyutka (NATO AT-3 'Sagger') over the 73 mm gun 2A28 and its associated control box inside of the turret
Weapon monitor circuits include devices inhibiting use of weapons when the hatches are open
Removal of asbestos elements in certain parts of the vehicle and their replacement by harmless material, while retaining the original functions. This includes brake linings, main clutch lining as well as sealing and insulation
Installation of a new fire detection and suppression system that does not contain Freon, this can be operated manually or automatically
External lights, including indicators, now conform to NATO standards
Sockets for outside starting, preventive charging of batteries and connection of devices are unified in accordance with NATO regulations
Camouflage system corresponds to NATO regulations
The accumulator batteries are now stored in a hermetic box ventilated outside of the vehicle space
Observation devices are fitted with protective covers
New footsteps, handles and non-slip coverings are installed to ensure safe movement of the crew on the hull
Holders for Swedish weapons including sub-machine guns, machine guns and ammunition
Installation of an independent crew heater
Improved exhaust outlet
Additional radio installation

And the Ukrainians replaced the entire turret on theirs it's unclear if that conversion will be made with these 501's ( guessing not at this time )

ALL WE CAN DO IS GUESS AT THIS POINT IN TIME

further info

The Swedish Pbv 501 wasn't just your ordinary BMP-1. The commission determined the munition used for the gun to be unsafe for peacetime use and thus had very limited access to them as only some of them were converted to practice ammunition. As part of the modernization (ROMOR) program, they deemed the ATGM-firing platform to be superfluous and removed it. The autoloader added only discomfort for the gunner, and so was removed as well. - Additionally, some specimens of the Pbv 501 were converted to command vehicles (to be used by company commanders/staff) where it had exchanged some space of the troop compartment for extra radios and facilities for the staff.

Any way....... its in the OOB now with the 73mm gun start date May 2022

FASTBOAT TOUGH

April 5th, 2022, 01:23 PM

Sorry I was off a minute too late. I just reviewed the following from the same full broadcast (w/0 commercials.), it's there just noted wrong time.

I would "que up" just before the 5m mark and just let it run until it shows up ~16s (GET AT THE READY!) later and have your finger on the "trigger" to hit the "pause button" before that-it's not much you're going to get.
https://www.cbs.com/shows/cbs_evening_news/video/s25FoQKZRh9RsExOcQ7O7rWTDumoXMvM/cbs-evening-news-april-4-2022/

For everyone else Don has "my guess" on the tank, just seeking UNBIASED answers.

I gotta get ready for work!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

JUST CHECKED IT'S THERE!! GOTTA GO!!

DRG

April 5th, 2022, 01:37 PM

You mean this one ?

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16693&stc=1&d=1649180195

The side skirts are a little different but I don't think it's anything "new"

FASTBOAT TOUGH

April 6th, 2022, 02:28 AM

Don,
Now that you were nice enough to "blow up" that portion of the tank I was wondering about, I can definitely say that's not the T-90MS/M I thought was a possibility.

They say they're there, I've yet to see one in video or pictures. First ones were supposed to go to the eastern military district but Russian version might not be fielded yet.

The three main tanks expected to serve in the Russian Army they are the
T-72B3M (Our T-72B3/4 is the same tank.) tanks with the domestic sighting and observation system, T-90M Proryv-3 (Again have seen this as the T-90MS not to be confused with the export version. Yeah, my heads spinning to.) and T-80BVM tanks.

Taken from the Updates in light of Ukraine war Thread these should be here as well.
Don put this in Post 100 of the above thread.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2doYYblaLFU

I would follow up with the companion "book" version of the same video (And website.) in Post 101 of the above thread.
https://tankrecognition.blogspot.com/2022/03/ukrainian-conflict-tank-recognition.html
My thinking easier to look here then pausing that well done video.

Finally, the following comes from modelers as I also had in the same above thread in Post 91. I will preface the following remarks first my very general observation of a biased opinion that their information isn't a viable source in here from some.

I as having been a modeler of historical military equipment and of course race cars:cool: , would disagree with that notion. Generally speaking and the following demonstrates this, we tended to very detailed orientated with a deep sense of history that surrounded the model. It's not the stuff of kids when I first building them in my youth. The deeper appreciation came as a young adult. Just wanted to get that out there. I did appreciate the following work, especially after looking at it, VOLIA, THERE IT WAS IN PICTURES AND VIDEO ON MY SOURCES FOR THE NEWS.

I hope you'll give it a chance because the CAMO is right and it's a good read as well.
https://www.migjimenez.com/img/cms/PDF/Ukranian_Conflict_Colors_ENG.pdf

I'm off to get some much needed sleep.

Don we could REALLY use a Rip Van Winkle EMO-G-MO!?!

Good Night Everyone!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

DRG

April 6th, 2022, 02:49 AM

I hope you'll give it a chance because the CAMO is right and it's a good read as well.
https://www.migjimenez.com/img/cms/PDF/Ukranian_Conflict_Colors_ENG.pdf

I'm off to get some much needed sleep.

Don we could REALLY use a Rip Van Winkle EMO-G-MO!?!

Good Night Everyone!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Yes, I saw that.#3 is already applied to the Ukrainian OOB

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16694&stc=1&d=1649227730

cbreedon

April 6th, 2022, 08:48 AM

Looks like Poland is getting some M1's

https://www.defensenews.com/land/2022/02/18/state-department-clears-6-billion-sale-of-tanks-to-poland/

DRG

April 6th, 2022, 09:22 AM

Yes but the big question is that a "USA" ready Sep 3 or something a bit less than that ?

For now, I will assume until more info is available that it's closer to what we have as a Sep 2

The suggestion was they could start showing up this year but the whole deal would take 2 years

FASTBOAT TOUGH

April 6th, 2022, 12:41 PM

See the source and date. The quote below I've already posted from another source (Janes or Army REC.) about the beginning of last month. SEP 22 if planned for FOC is too soon based on the below if I followed your last post correctly.
Para 2: Is the "Shopping List".
Note: "Proposed Sale/Potential Sale" throughout.

"Implementation of this proposed sale will require approximately (22) U.S. Government and (52) U.S. contractor representatives to travel to Poland for a duration of up to five years to support equipment fielding and training. "
https://www.dsca.mil/press-media/major-arms-sales/poland-m1a2-sepv3-main-battle-tank

We don't just have these tanks lying around, they will have to completely RESET with DU/and any other classified armor on ours along and not limited to the following subsystems such FCS, GPS (We use our own military specific system which I still can't discuss.), Stabilizer, Vision, Comms etc.

For instance, TI/GSR 50 for BOTH the Polish and Taiwanese
M1A2T as one example based on them choosing to buy an earlier GEN system from us or installing their own.

I see the Polish tanks at least 2 years out to FOC minimum, I'd rather be wrong once than finding ourselves chasing FOC dates again over and over again.

Let's not let expectations get ahead of good common sense.

I gotta got ready for work.

Just got this after logging off.

Forget about my 2 years MAYBE...
"The tanks are expected to be delivered to Poland by 2026 and will be deployed in eastern Poland to deter Russia." FROM
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/poland-signs-contract-for-250-m1a2-sepv3-mbts

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

DRG

April 6th, 2022, 01:05 PM

Pat.

I'll believe the date when they are reported rolling off the ships.

ANYTHING ANYBODY writes about this up to and INCLUDING Janes is just guesswork at this time\

But please note this from the Janes link matches what I first wrote

Błaszczak said during the signing ceremony that the tanks would be delivered to the 18th Mechanised Division, with 28 tanks from US Army depots to be delivered to the Polish Army this year so that training of Polish soldiers can begin.

I do not care so much about the "official" date they would enter service. IF they were on Polish soil and IF something determined and nasty rolled across the border do you REALLY think they would stay locked up on the training ground?

Not a chance.... so if they arrive this year then this year is the date I use.

This game from the beginning was built on "what might be" and mainly the "what might be" it was designed for is what's happening right now in Ukraine.

Anyone playing as Poland in say..... 2023 who doesn't want to use them, does not have to.

Simple as that

FASTBOAT TOUGH

April 7th, 2022, 12:05 PM

Alright got those 28 sorted out as being M1A2 SEP V2. This is doable only to the fact some of them are in the process of being converted over to the M1A2C/SEP3.

Those tanks could easily be RESET for foreign sale usage if they pull ones from the line as they're being stripped of their electronic subsystems through the conversion process.

They will not be the USA version as that is our frontline battle tank. That being said, I have after spending over 3hrs after work, early into the morning (0330) found I feel a solution to model a foreign sales M1A2 SEP 2/3 tank.

Unfortunately, as I was doing a final data check on the post I had just finished, someone way above my paygrade decided this would be a good time for severe frontal boundry to pass through us that knocked out power for 8hrs here.

I've kept my notes and I intend on following up as too much time was spent on finding, I feel a very workable solution to the problem.

You'll have it by this weekend or sooner, in the meantime gotta get ready for work.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

DRG

April 7th, 2022, 03:26 PM

Pat

Sorry to hear about your power outage. I have always had battery back up that gives me enough time to save my work and shut down. It was a worthwhile investment.

I have NO IDEA why Poland would want to complicate their parts inventory by keeping spares for T-72's, Leos and now Abrams.

I understand wanting to phase out old the Russian vehicles but in the event of an "event" warehouses and manufacturers to repair/replace parts for Leos is a LOT closer than North America

And why would they want anything that is less armoured or less campable electronically / FC etc than what they already have so yes I can see some systems being a bit less than cutting edge for "export" even to a fellow NATO nation but only a bit

I will be sending you a PM. We can thrash this out there

FASTBOAT TOUGH

April 8th, 2022, 03:40 AM

Don-Done!

Others and I have reported on this now it's started.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_april_2022_global_security_army_indus try/czeck_republic_sends_t-72a_mbts_tanks_and_bvp-1_ifvs_tracked_armored_to_ukraine.html

Used to have a couple of APS UPS but have my electronics all on MONSTER "Super Duper" surge protectors each with 1 Mill protection packages if they fail to work. Everything survived worst electrical storm in years. Oh well, maybe next time I'll be able to get a REALLY "Super Duper" new PC!?! ;)

I'm off to see the wizard, the Wonderful Wizard of Oz...
well sometimes going to bed can make you feel that way at times!?!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

FASTBOAT TOUGH

April 11th, 2022, 10:06 AM

I felt they would do this and said so, Germany leaning towards approval of donating 50 LEOPARD 1 tanks that be delivered within 6 weeks with the rest over the course of 3 months or less.

"Military equipment maker Rheinmetall is preparing to supply up to 50 used Leopard 1 battle tanks to Ukraine, the Handelsblatt newspaper reported on Monday, citing the group's CEO."

"Rheinmetall could deliver the first tanks in six weeks and the rest over the following three months through its subsidiary Rheinmetall Italia if it gets a green light from the German government, Chief Executive Armin Papperger told Handelsblatt."

"Papperger said Ukrainian soldiers could be trained on the Leopard 1 within a few days if they are already skilled military personnel." I'm sure the Ukraine has available tank crews by now.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/rheinmetall-ready-to-supply-up-to-50-tanks-to-ukraine-newspaper/ar-AAW5OHf?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=b92f04ab226e41038e7627f44893217e

They should be of a later version/possibly updated of the LEOPARD 1; I think I have it narrowed down to 3 possible candidates.

Still trying to get more solid verification on this.

Also, this could open the door for the MARDER I that's been "batted around" for the last week or so.

Can't help feeling like I'm at least running a 1/2 Marathon these last few weeks with CINCLANTHOME, here and work.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

DRG

April 11th, 2022, 11:42 AM

IEEEE! :banghead:

Leo 1's are better than nothing but not even close to an old 2A4 and there should be lots of them around

That said there are probably a LOT of nations with 105mm ammo in storage and the later versions are hardly puffballs

FASTBOAT TOUGH

April 12th, 2022, 08:16 AM

I found this to be very interesting. It's really pretty much what's been recorded if a little more on the conservative side. The author also takes a deeper look as to what this means overall to the Russians, in fact several years back I believe the Russian tank storage issue was also discussed as to the quality of what's in storage.
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/russia-has-lost-467-tanks-out-total-frontline-fleet-2080-de-zitter

FURTHERMORE, no mention of either the T-90MS (As most know it by.) which was first stationed in the Far East or the ARMATA which is major technical issues still related to the engines/powerplant and other electronic issues as yet unresolved. The war and cost of it in real terms and sanctions make it even less likely in the RL this tank will see "the light of day" especially in our timeline.

I think a fair estimate will push it closer to 2027/28 if at all. Russia has had no success in new tank development in decades. The "Black Eagle" and T-95 are good cases to make my point.
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/t12_black_eagle.htm
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/t95.htm

Back to bed for a "power nap", I never sleep well when someone's not here.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

DRG

April 12th, 2022, 03:38 PM

Is there any real evidence the T-15 is in service or any of the other little toys they paraded a few years back?

This made me snort....... from Wiki

ts new Malakhit (Malachite) ERA is claimed to protect against ATGMs like the FGM-148 Javelin, Missile Moyenne Portée (MMP), 120 mm tank rounds like the German DM53/DM63 and American M829A3 APFSDS sabots.

Yeah sure it is.............

FASTBOAT TOUGH

April 13th, 2022, 01:50 AM

T-14/T-15 & Boomerang-All are not in service by my sources or by any Russian sources.

If they were, they would've announced it by now, for both political and for purposes of intimidation given the Ukrainian War.

Both the "Black Eagle" & T-95 were paraded around also, I remember the T-95 actually made headlines when they paraded it all covered under a tarp on a tank transporter. I'm sure I posted that a longtime ago.

Because they are reliable, and the site is user friendly you'll see many question marks for the date for the above and several other pieces of equipment. NOT LIMITED TO THE FOLLOWING, here's...
http://www.military-today.com/

And you wonder why I don't like Wiki, to yours.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

DRG

April 17th, 2022, 06:10 AM

The Chieftain

Taking a slightly different tack on this debate. There has been much focus in recent years on the ability of various systems like drones and sensor-fuzed artillery to destroy tanks. Some have observed that the tank has been declared 'dead' several times, going back as far as 1919. In this video, I attempt to explain why the tank still has a place on the modern battlefield, even if it takes more work and money to keep them alive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lI7T650RTT8

Mobhack

April 17th, 2022, 06:52 AM

A lot of these "ze tank is dead" shills would be stumped answering this:

So OK, your NLAWS and Javelins stopped the enemy attack. Good stuff.

Right, so now you have to counter-attack them to take back the lost territory and bring them to the peace talks. Otherwise they will just camp out on your land.

So how exactly are you going to do that without any of these "obsolete dinosaur" MBT thingys you say now aren't necessary?

If you swarm him with tin-can vehicles even if these have big guns, it won't end well. See the carcasses of the VDV light armoured columns in the Ukraine for a hint. They end up as piles of scrap or puddles of melted aluminium. Only a simple LAW is required to kill those, nothing fancy. Even third world militias have plenty of RPGs.

So perhaps you are proposing to walk in serried lines of leg infantry behind a massed barrage 1916 style? - You do know what WW1 advances were like in terms of casualty lists that filled entire newspapers, don't you?

The MBT, in conjunction with combined arms tactics, is the only viable assault platform since 1916, and still remains so. They are expensive things but everything is more costly as time goes by.

DRG

April 17th, 2022, 07:11 AM

FASTBOAT TOUGH

April 18th, 2022, 03:00 AM

I just had this discussion yesterday in the "In light of..." thread. So, as I was going to bed for some much-needed sleep, I came across this...
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russia-ukraine-war-sanctions-cripple-russias-tank-production-gur/ar-AAWiwy4?ocid=mailsignout&li=BBnbfcL

Walking away from computer!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

FASTBOAT TOUGH

April 18th, 2022, 11:07 AM

So, I haven't heard or seen any, so I was wondering why and where are they? Well, the "where" is in the Ukraine somewhere (That's a relief!?!) ;).

The how come we haven't seen them, unless I missed it is the "why" part is still a mystery. We'll see if they show up when Russia kicks off the Eastern Offensive. I suspect there're in Central Ukraine.

At least we know they have them! : cool:
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/ukrainian-oplot-m-main-battle-tank-just-time-war-197928

Just wanted to follow up given the war in Ukraine.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

DRG

April 18th, 2022, 02:48 PM

Found this

https://en.defence-ua.com/media/illustration/articles/ba46259eafa73762.jpg

when turned upside down it looks, rather appropriately, like something else.....

https://i.imgur.com/vBNSplN.png

Aeraaa

April 18th, 2022, 03:03 PM

^A really creepy rat?

DRG

April 18th, 2022, 03:30 PM

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16703&stc=1&d=1650310249

Karagin

April 18th, 2022, 07:13 PM

So...t-shirts for the game?

zovs66

April 18th, 2022, 10:09 PM

A coffin for three brothers.

FASTBOAT TOUGH

April 19th, 2022, 02:08 AM

DRG

April 19th, 2022, 04:49 AM

Poland has started shipping 100 T-72M1 UNIT 401/T-72M1R UNIT 032 (In the OOB as T-72M2/This UNIT is correct for the T-72M1R by date and capabilities. See Ref. 2 below. Recommend name changed as noted for the T-72M2.) They are also getting the BWP-1 UNIT 065 (BMP-1) .

Polish UNIT #'s supplied to expedite search and transfer to Ukraine OOB unchanged if desired. https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_april_2022_global_security_army_indus try/poland_sends_t-72_tanks_and_bwp-1_tracked_armored_ifvs_to_ukraine.html[/url]
https://www.armyrecognition.com/mspo_2021_news_official_show_daily/mspo_2021_modernized_t-72m1r_main_battle_tank_on_display.html

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Pat. You really need to double check before pressing " post "
Polish unit 401 is a BA-64.... Unit 402 is the T-72M1. Unit 32 is correct for the T-72M2 but neither is as capable as ones in the Ukrainian OOB now so there is little point in adding them and the time for new additions is past

So take a break

DRG

April 19th, 2022, 04:56 AM

A coffin for three brothers.

More like "A crematorium for three brothers"

zovs66

April 19th, 2022, 05:27 AM

That is for sure

FASTBOAT TOUGH

April 19th, 2022, 12:18 PM

Don,
THANK YOU!! FINALLY.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

DRG

April 19th, 2022, 12:38 PM

I had to make a correction to another OOB so the entire set had to be recalced and the installer rebuilt so I put them is anyway

BUT NO MORE PLEASE

There has to be a line. This is it

DRG

April 19th, 2022, 05:26 PM

Poland has started shipping 100 T-72M1 UNIT 401/T-72M1R UNIT 032 (In the OOB as T-72M2/This UNIT is correct for the T-72M1R by date and capabilities.

*Maybe* ( Maybe ) they are sending M1Rs but this article paints a whole different picture with a photo

https://vpk.name/en/594666_poland-delivered-the-first-batch-of-t-72m-tanks-removed-from-storage-to-ukraine.html

The T-72M tanks supplied to Ukraine are a simplified modification of 1979, they lack dynamic armor, modern fire control systems, multi-channel sights. These tanks were located at a storage base in Lublin, the Polish military planned to upgrade them to the RT-91 level, but then there were no funds

It is unclear what condition the tanks are in now, but it can be confidently stated that Kiev does not have time for major repairs and modernization of these tanks, and there is nowhere to work, Russia has struck all factories capable of repairing armored vehicles.

https://vpk.name/file/img/polsha-postavila-na-ukrainu-pervuyu-partiyu-snyatyh-s-hraneniya-tankov-t-72m-pnzt7m60-1649776501.t.jpg

That is about as far away as you can get from a T-72M1R. It's just a basic 25 year old T-72 on the back of that flatbed. About the only thing it's good for now if there are actual modern tanks around is target practice.... or used as basic training tanks

EITHER story could be wartime BS..........Maybe they are saying they are sending old junk and are actually sending updated one.... maybe not

Either way, the truth might not be ever known but what's in that photo is exactly what they say it is...... old crap dug out of storage with limited utility on a 2022 battlefield

OTOH............. note the source..........

topwar.ru

Further......... I kept digging and that photo shows up in a post on Reddit 5 YEARS AGO so that was not something taken recently so if anyone can come up with concrete information ASAP I would appreciate it

FURTHER ( NOT having "fun" here.........)
Rechecked Pats links and the report says

100 T-72 main battle tanks including T-72M1 [B]and T-72M1R

So some of both..... THAT I can work with

FASTBOAT TOUGH

April 20th, 2022, 05:07 AM

I'm going to start this by saying, we're all damned tired right now pressing these equipment issues well past the point where we normally would be enjoying the patch at least a month ago.

A war comes along and the "flood gates" opened up and the beautiful city of PATCH became underwater.

I'm going to unwrap this by first saying an error on my part in Post 1330 with a wrong UNIT# assigned for the T-72M1 as 401 VICE 402 started the ball rolling

The Dr. is in...

When mistakes like this happens, as you try to unravel it becomes a major distraction that affects one's perception on what follows.

The Dr is out. :p

I've corrected Post 1330 and reposted it below. The T-72M1 is corrected to UNIT 401. Now what was missed as discussed above was what I questioned following my error which unlike the original post, I will just highlight that part which I feel will demonstrate my original intent.

I had my doubts (T-72M), and I should've more forcefully expressed them. That's on me and Don knows this was the exception to what I normally would've done. I'm just really "any word you want" tired right now.

Let's get to it. I've "dug deeper" and found more.

"Poland has started shipping 100 T-72M1 UNIT 402/T-72M1R UNIT 032 (In the OOB as T-72M2/This UNIT is correct for the T-72M1R by date and capabilities. See Ref. 2 below. Recommend name changed as noted for the T-72M2. ) They are also getting the BWP-1 UNIT 065 (BMP-1)"

Something about the T-72M2 was familiar to me (I believe it goes back to my last submission that had a lot of T-72 related work done.) that made me think it being in the Polish OOB was wrong.

But upon reviewing UNIT 032 felt it was the right tank for the T-72M1R in capabilities and let's just rename it and be done to T-72M1R..

It is impossible for Poland to have the T-72M2.

That's because the T-72M2 started life as a joint Czech/Slovakia T-72M1 modernization program called the T-72M2.

The rest I'll let you read from my Ref. 1 (Too much for me to type right now.) ...
"In the early 1990s after the dissolution of the Czechoslovakia, various upgrade programs were developed both in Czech Republic and Slovakia to keep their fleets of T-72 MBTs operational and combat capable. First prototype of the T-72M2 Moderna was revealed in 1993. Development of this tank is completed . For a number of years this upgrade was actively proposed for Slovak Army as well as export customers. However, it received no production orders. Slovakia never ordered this tank due to funding problems. Only few prototypes were built for trials and evaluation."
https://www.military-today.com/tanks/t72m2_moderna.htm
https://www.armedconflicts.com/SVK-T-72M2-Moderna-t29016

And look to see who REALLY had one...
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_february_2022_global_security_army_in dustry/iraqi_army_gets_ex-bulgarian_army_t-72m2_tanks_and_bmp-1_ifvs.html

The WASHOUT on T-72M2.
1. Didn't look and don't care about the BULGARIAN T-72M at this moment it would need further research to determine the extent of the modernization they made to their "T-72m2.

2. NOT in the CZECH OOB and that's good.

3. SLOVAKIA/DELETE/T-72M2 MODERNA/UNIT 271/PROTOTYPE ONLY/DELETE//

Now to the Polish T-72M1R ...

The modernization program for the T-72M1 to the T-72M1R was originally approved in 2011. However, the money got redirected to the T-91.

The T-72M1R modernization program was restarted in 2019 by BUMAR-ŁABĘDY S.A. facility. It should be apparent this is an ongoing modernization and in lieu of Poland getting the M1A2P, this means Poland has given the Ukraine newly modified T-72 tanks, the T-72M1R..

The refs, use the term "some of the upgrades are..."well that's all I needed the first time to simply rename the Polish never had it T-72M2 to the T-72M1R.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/mspo_2021_news_official_show_daily/mspo_2021_modernized_t-72m1r_main_battle_tank_on_display.html
https://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and_tech/t_72m1r_tanks_disappeared_in_poland_they_may_soon_ reemerge_at_ukraines_military_bases-2545.html
https://bulgarianmilitary.com/amp/2022/01/13/t-72m1r-leopard-2pl-tanks-will-strengthen-polands-capabilities-in-2022/
https://www.novinite.com/articles/214764/Day+53+of+the+Invasion+of+Ukraine%3A+Kyiv+expects+ Russian+naval+landing+in+Mariupol%2C+Poland+sends+ Tanks%2C+EU+with+New+Sanctions

I hopefully have cleaned this up, ratified the situation and caused additional work (Which was not my intention :D
.) concerning Slovakia.

The following is due to the lack of sleep and my delusional state so, you know what's coming...

Now my :rant: is over and I better :yield: before Don gets :tough: with me. :D

I see it's 0500 back up in "5", hopefully CINCLANTHOME will let me have another "30"!! ;) :) :cool:

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

DRG

April 20th, 2022, 07:41 AM

Yeah Pat I "get" the "tired" part. My average in the past month is around 6:15 and it's almost always in two parts with a 2-3 hour gap in the middle and I am getting too old for this $hit

That said......"The T-72M1 is corrected to UNIT 401"..... I ASSUME that is unit 401 in the Polish OOB..... the problem is as I noted Polish unit 401 is a BA-64.... Unit 402 is the T-72M1

But no worries I have it figured out now. They are getting both the M1 and the M1R but I have taken the "liberty" of giving them Ukrainian ammo in the game. That may or may not be the relality but it now is what it is and with that NO MORE CHANGES OR ADDITIONS WILL BE MADE THIS YEAR.

At some point we have to test a version that is not in a constant state of change because with every change comes the chance of introducing a "Gotcha!" into it like copying a unit and forgetting that the Polish tanks use UC 13 whereas the Ukrainian ones use UC59 ( but that was caught PDQ ) and that the secondary weapons for one OOB do not match one for one with the other ( but that was caught PDQ as well )

Right now the release is tentatively sometime next week.

Karagin

April 20th, 2022, 11:58 AM

So the US and NATO should be sending them state of the art tanks?

The idea is to keep Russia stuck in a quagmire, not cause them to gain access to new technology easier than their normal ways.

The idea alone that NATO countries are even giving them anything is a major shift from their stands 8 years ago. Plus it makes sense, to get rid of the crap you have in storage, and thus you no longer have to worry about it.

Anything else lends to profiting by the MIC (Military Industrial Complex) and their greedy little eyes and mouths are already salivating since we have depleted the ready stock of Javelins and other ATGMs and thus need to buy more to replace things...

Also, Ukraine is in no position to be crying about the aid, they are the beggars in this scenario, not the choosers.

If the equipment is used correctly with good tactics and such, then operationally it should give them something to throw the Russians back, something we haven't seen much of from them.

DRG

April 20th, 2022, 12:18 PM

What equipment they actually get and if or how it gets used may or may not ever be clear but what is clear is that the third decade of the 21st century has been and will continue to be a serious PITA worldwide long into the unforeseeable future and what might happen tomorrow, next week or next month is anyone's guess but it looks like it's going to be a bumpy ride

FASTBOAT TOUGH

April 20th, 2022, 12:48 PM

Finally, the sometimes WONDERFUL words in RED!

Andy and Don as always THANK YOU for all your hard work and dedication to the game. You'll also be glad to know in an "off handed" manner that CINCLANTHOME also sends her THANKS!?! :rolleyes:

Don, what can I say but thanks again for all your patience and understanding, you've always respected my work and time I put into it even if at times how I got there might've resulted in a "Huh? ".

I to will take some time off. But as I told Don, I have years' worth of data in my files of things that are here for real but "not in here". With a little bit of luck, we might see a couple of examples of what I'm talking about.

So, their semi-retirement and this patch will be a "God send" to allowing me to check the OOB's against what I have and in a perfect world be able to see what Don "snuck it in" and I can simply delete the files and move onto the next one, in a perfect world.

You'll only as always find equipment that have reached FOC or received through foreign sales.

For the duration the same rules as always as I'm not interested in comments there. I'll present the data as always, and it is up to you the player whether or not you use it.

So, the Fastboat Patch Page will live on. So, Andy and Don thank you for your gift of time, no pressure and mostly NO DEADLINES!!!!

Gotta go-work calls.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

DRG

April 20th, 2022, 04:48 PM

Everyone needs to keep in mind that the info available is in many cases sketchy at best. We have tried to sift through it as best we can but I have no doubt there will be items that turn out to be wrong simply because the info we had at the time was just wrong.

Case in point is the US providing 155 howitzers to Ukraine. The type in the early info was not specific to the model, At first, I thought they would be M777 but when coupled with the supply of M113's that seemed less likely and then I read so "informed" analysis that suggested they would be M198 which made more sense given the accompanying M113s. Since then I have read they are M777's but not from any "official " source but again if you are supplying M113's which first went into service 62 years ago the likelihood the 155's are cutting edge is slim so I went with M198s but right now I wouldn't eliminate M114's from the range of possibilities.

With things like this it's a crap shoot sometimes

The other items are more detailed

The latest package will provide: 10 AN/TPQ-36 counter artillery radars; two AN/MPQ-64 Sentinel air surveillance systems; 500 Javelin missiles and other anti-armor systems; 300 Switchblade drones; 200 M113 Armored Personnel Carriers; 100 Armored High Mobility Multipurpose Wheeled Vehicles; and 11 Mi-17 helicopters

for the guns it's just

18 155mm Howitzers

I weighed the possibilities and decided on the M198. The only difference in game terms is the name

POST RELEASE EDIT

Just before release. info confirmed they were M777's and the name and photo was changed and a M777 specific Icon was added so that is what you will see in the game OOB's everyone has now

FASTBOAT TOUGH

May 5th, 2022, 02:09 AM

Another Russian tank has lost its moniker as an invincible tank.
It is my belief that what the article below is depicting as a destroyed Russian T-90M by Ukrainian forces is correct. What I'm surprised by is that Russia only has about 100 T-90M tanks in service and just over a year ago just equipped the first unit with them. Which is about how long ago we entered them I believe.

The tank I expected to see first would've been the T-72B3M/also referred to as the T-72B4 which we had decided to enter into the game as the T-72B3/4 hybrid tank that combined the improvements of the B3/B4 variants to save slot space.

So, I've looked at some videos and my sources and have concluded in my opinion that the picture from that Ukrainian Twitter account is a destroyed T-90M (Export version is the T-90MS which was developed first.) as reported.

What took it out is unclear, at first, I thought maybe another tank might've made the kill hitting the tank on the right side with the impact and explosion causing the "road wheels" to blow off from the left side.

But after a closer look, it appears the turret has been "shifted" left and if you look closely beyond the reporter's right shoulder where it meets his arm (Follow the jacket shoulder seam down.) that appears to maybe be the Commanders sight standing up on the ground.

With that I'm thinking it more likely killed by a "top attack" weapon or by one of their precision guided artillery rounds.

Anyway, here's the article with the blown-up picture I used to confirm the tank against all I mentioned above.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russia-just-lost-its-most-advanced-operational-tank-in-ukraine/ar-AAWVOM9?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=1e49c8ef629f4369af74da24ed66f374
https://twitter.com/IAPonomarenko/status/1521898240509108226/photo/1
Well, I guess you need to click on the picture to blow it up.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

FASTBOAT TOUGH

May 9th, 2022, 12:09 AM

If the below link is true, we can expect Putin to officially declare war on the Ukraine sometime later today probably before the annual "Victory Day" military parade. There has been speculation this might happen as noted above.

Under Russian law a declaration of war must be made to start a military mobilization and call up conscripts.

It's refreshing to see such a law-abiding leader.
https://twitter.com/OSINT88/status/1523403272517976064?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Eembeddedtimeline%7Ctwterm%5Eprofile%3ADefAeroNews %7Ctwgr%5EeyJ0ZndfZXhwZXJpbWVudHNfY29va2llX2V4cGly YXRpb24iOnsiYnVja2V0IjoxMjA5NjAwLCJ2ZXJzaW9uIjpudW xsfX0%3D%7Ctwcon%5Etimelinechrome&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.defense-aerospace.com%2Fpage%2Fhome.html

This likely to be a "perishable" product.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

FASTBOAT TOUGH

May 11th, 2022, 12:32 PM

Apparently, Carl Gustav was seen fighting on the battlefield taking on his biggest opponent to date. You be the judge.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/18527684/russia-advanced-tank-destroyed-fiery-video/
https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-blows-russias-best-tank-help-sweden-1705292

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

DRG

May 11th, 2022, 04:52 PM

Could anyone detect the direction it came from?

FASTBOAT TOUGH

May 12th, 2022, 02:37 AM

It appears to me it was hit from the rear. I "walked" the cursor back and forth from about the 7s - 12s.

Before I did that, I ran it through fully then ran and paused it SEVERAL times when I finally caught a "brighter" white light from the initial "white flare" before the flame.

That's when I "walked" (Me controlling the direction of and speed of the video.) the video through as noted in Para 1.

Turret positioned out is in a very venerable spot from a frontal attack which this clearly isn't but also from the rear which I think is what happened.

Walk up at about 8s you'll see the "white plume" appear/hold at 9s and using the turret bustle as your "horizon" you'll notice a small ball of white just a hair brighter than the rest of white plume".

It's on the turret/horizon line/centered between the middle of the "white plume" and its right edge.

I can make it out with the video on my 36" 4K monitor in full screen with the "naked eye" and to be sure with both my onboard magnifier and handheld one.

I used the Newsweek video as it seems to be a little "cleaner" to my eyes and monitor.

And for full disclosure I did think at first it came from the tree line from the left, but I couldn't find the "flare" from the rocket which I felt the video angle would've allowed for.
https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-blows-russias-best-tank-help-sweden-1705292

I gotta get to bed.

I gave it a couple of hours and it's the best I could do with the material.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

FASTBOAT TOUGH

May 16th, 2022, 03:49 PM

At least the Ukrainians were smart enough to put ERA on their "new" Polish donated T-72M1 tanks before putting them into the field.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/ukraine_-_russia_conflict_war_2022/polish_t-72m1_tanks_donated_to_ukraine_are_now_upgraded_wit h_era_explosive_reactive_armor.html

These were the "guided rockets" mentioned from posts of yesterday in the SPA/SPAA Thread.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_may_2022_global_security_army_industr y/us_will_deliver_to_ukraine_apkws_70mm_guided_rocke ts_that_can_be_launched_from_air_or_land_paltforms .html

Bulgaria supporting the Ukraine in a very useful manner and in as valuable way as supplying them with weapons.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_may_2022_global_security_army_industr y/bulgarian_parliament_approves_decision_on_repair_o f_ukrainian_tanks_and_military_equipment.html

TRACKING ACTIVELY THE FOLLOWING
https://en.defence-ua.com/industries/slovenia_to_hand_over_m_84_tanks_to_ukraine_get_ge rman_leopard_and_marder_in_return-2633.html
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/45170/ukraine-situation-report-leopard-tanks-could-arrive-in-six-weeks-with-germanys-approval

The above would also include the Ukraine receiving the MARDER 1A3 (100 UNITS) I feel they'll get these before the LEO 1A5 (88 UNITS) .

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Aeraaa

May 17th, 2022, 03:55 PM

This guy's opinion is that the T90M that was destroyed was first ambushed (and one of the weapons used MIGHT be a Carl G) and then destroyed by a Russian tank to prevent capture. The latter action is what we see in the famous video showing the moment of destruction of the tank.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjx_GMLF--Y

FASTBOAT TOUGH

May 22nd, 2022, 07:56 PM

The Ukrainians claimed it was militia forces that took out the second T-90M with the Carl Gustav. This makes sense as most of the Javelins and MSHAW (?) (Going on memory here-the UK ATGW.) went to the frontline troops. It's well known the militia again got most of the Swedish Carl Gustav AT-4 and also the German Panzerfaust 3 both capable of taking out a T-90M. Both use a "countermass" which virtually eliminates the back blast.

My ref below and some other readings I've come across seem to indicate the Germans also sent along an undisclosed amount of the Panzerfaust 3-IT. We know a fair amount about the AT-4 however I feel we might know a little less about the Panzerfaust-3.

So, a couple of things that caught my attention...
"In 2022 Germany supplied Panzerfaust 3 missiles to Ukraine to defend against the Russian invasion. This included delivery of the latest version, the Panzerfaust 3-IT version."

Future proofing at development...
"The barrel of the launch tube has a 60 mm caliber, while the oversized rocket has 110 mm caliber. Such design was selected because it allowed to upgrade the weapon by simply designing larger rocket. In this case there was no need to redesign the whole launcher to accommodate the new rocket."

Without a tandem warhead using the "base" rocket ...
"The baseline DM12A1 rocket has a multi-purpose High Explosive Anti-Tank (HEAT) warhead. It is used against tanks, armored vehicles and structures. It penetrates 800 mm of steel armor. During trials the Panzerfaust 3 penetrated front armor of the T-72 tank and even made an exit hole in the turret. Though this original rocket lacks a precursor charge and is not effective against tanks equipped with Explosive Reactive Armor (ERA)"

Tandem warheads would soon be added.

On Panzerfaust-3IT ...
"Panzerfaust 3-IT has improved tandem warhead. This version was developed to defeat modern heavy ERA, such as the Russian Relikt. It can defeat the latest and heavily armored tanks with explosive reactive armor. Some sources report that it penetrates more than 900 mm of steel armor. Judging by this figure penetration behind ERA COULD (I capitalized this so it wouldn't get lost with the rest of the data.) be around 700 mm. Developers claim that this version is capable of penetrating front armor of the Russian T-80U main battle tank. It can also penetrate armor of the American M1A2 Abrams and British Challenger 2 tanks. This weapon has effective range of 400 m. The Panzerfaust 3-IT weights 14.3 kg. In terms of penetration and range the Panzerfaust 3-IT outperforms many other anti-tank rocket launchers, including the Russian RPG-29 Vampir, RPG-30 and RPG-32. Only the Russian RPG-28 is more powerful."

Might need to check the German OOB to ensure they have the latest versions.

Also, I feel it's safe to assume the following on Panzerfaust-3 ...
This weapon weights 13.4 kg. It has an effective range of 400 m, which can be extended to 600 m by installing the Dynarange fire control unit. This weapon was adopted by the German army in 1993.

Also, the rocket is armed at 5m.
https://www.military-today.com/firearms/panzerfaust_3.htm

Now to that video saying a Russian tank (Which also was a T-90M.) took out the T-90M hit in that ambush. I'm sorry that's just a truckful of BS.

The tank that fired the shot was at the "start" of a bend in the road with a short straight with the tank that was hit being around the next turn fully. So the Russians have developed a tank shell that can follow the road!?! Or he fired this "magnificent new shell" that maneuvered itself through the trees to the left of the tank and made a sharp 90 and another sharp 90 to hit the rear of the same tank. Amazing!

Could be possible.

However, there's no muzzle blast, no fume from the barrel and more damming no road dust kicked from the percussion from firing the gun on a dry dusty road as you saw kick up when the lead tank got hit.

Other versions that run just a little longer showed those vehicles retreating (I believe the video I used shows this.) because also in the engagement the Russians supposedly also lost a BMP-3 and another unidentified APC.

He has an opinion and I have presented mine, just like them we all have xxxxxxxs as well. :D

Oh, before I go ...
Looks like the Ukraine might get those Marder A3 and Leopard 1A5 armor units later this year as the following is reporting. It would be something if some of those 1A5's got refitted with the 120mm/L44 guns they mounted on the Prototype Leopard 1A6.
The design was fully tested/evaluated and approved for production. But due to fiscal constraints and with the LEOPARD 2 having been made ready for production the LEOPARD 1A6 was cancelled.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_may_2022_global_security_army_industr y/rheinmetall_from_germany_prepares_the_supply_to_uk raine_of_88_leopard_1a5_tanks_and_100_marder_ifvs. html

The Czech Army will be getting the German LEOPARD 2A4 for donating some of their T-72 tanks to the Ukraine. The first of the 2A4 tanks could arrive by November.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_may_2022_global_security_army_industr y/czech_republic_confirms_donation_by_germany_of_leo pard_2a4_tanks_in_exchange_for_t-72_mbts_for_ukraine.html

Well, I'm going for my walk and might contemplate this new Russian tank round.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

DRG

May 22nd, 2022, 11:15 PM

Might need to check the German OOB to ensure they have the latest versions.
Pat
:capt:

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16732&stc=1&d=1653333564

FASTBOAT TOUGH

May 23rd, 2022, 03:10 PM

Don and I had a "discussion" before the last patch concerning where we thought some of these tanks we've been expecting for a VERY LONGTIME would've already have reached FOC but haven't for any combination of reasons WELL DOCUMENTED in this thread. One of these was the ALTAY. The rest included the ARMATA, CHALLENGER 3 (FOC already declared by MOD as 2030.), M1A2A (Australia MOD declared IOC in 2025.), ARIETE (Also referred to as the ARIETE C1.) (Italy never went ahead with the current C2 tanks in the game. More on this in my files as I'm currently tracking the NEW modified version. STATUS: Best I can give you at this time is it's LIKELY to get in.) and the LeClerc LX "will come down to the wire".

There are a couple of "outliners" but the above would in most people's minds be the more important ones.

Our solution to FOC dates for most above was to set the START for them to DEC 2025.

The reason(s) should be obvious for many of you who've followed this Thread over the years (And THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!) for others basically my job is easy, I track these projects until the scent is dead, report the results and make my recommendations and discuss alternative solutions to fix the problem. Though very time consuming my end is a little easier.

Don: checks my work as I would expect him to do, we come to a consensus and if the fix is needed, he fixes it in the OOB and most times multiple OOB's depending on the issue(s) and then he has to "comb" through all the Campaigns and Scenarios and fix them there. That stuff is beyond my capabilities, and I have NO DESIRE to learn. It's NOT what I do. I'm a "deep miner" and Electronics and associated systems guy (Plus a darn good navigator. :cool:) not a programmer or some such. That's why I have Andy and Don and all the rest of you guys that do that Sxxt out here!!! :D

There has been nothing more frustrating to us then having too CONSTANTLY having to push START dates to the right. This why we chose DEC 2025 and OMG how could I have forgotten INDIA and the ARJUN Mk 2?????

So back to the ALTAY, I had already reported that Turkey signed a contract with South Korea (S.K.) to buy engines from them for the ALTAY (As reminder, the ALTAY is based on the K2.) . I'm not going to rehash everything that delayed the ALTAY except for the most recent from 4 years ago when Turkey was forced to attempt to produce their own 1500hp engine from scratch. Well, here we are.

The PROTOTYPE with the S.K. engine is ready to start evaluations this or next month.

They are progressing in the development of their own engine as well but that will also require a PROTOTYPE.

Production could start within 2yrs. which would put our START date about on target. Maybe. ;)

Note the conclusion reached also in the last para of the article.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_may_2022_global_security_army_industr y/bmc_integrates_south_korean_doosan_engine_with_tur kish_altay_mbt.html

ARIETE C1 (As referred to in the next.) will start with three PROTOTYPES the following: "AMV PT1, which will feature improvements to the hull, the PT2 which will feature improvements to the turret, and finally the PT3 which will incorporate improvements to both the turret and hull."

My personal feeling is since the war started after this plan they will end up with the PT3 with further improvements to include APS. Hopefully "I won't have to eat too much crow" concerning that prediction.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/weapons_defence_industry_military_technology_uk/italian_army_starts_trials_of_ugraded_c1_ariete_am v_mbt_main_battle_tank.html

Crap after 3 :eek: time for a shower!!

As a postscript to my last in Post 1350 I've concluded Russia doesn't have a "road following" tank shell. I'm back to my opening remark in my opinion.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

FASTBOAT TOUGH

May 25th, 2022, 01:47 PM

An "Oldie but Goodie" is being bought back into service apparently as seen in Ukraine this past March.

The T-62M/M1 are replacing Russian tank losses. It's actually a better tank then the T-64 which had a reputation for looking like a "Bonfire" when hit. It was a much worse in that regard then what we're seeing now with some of the T-72/80/90M tanks we've seen.

If the Ukraine gets the LEOPARD 1A5 that tank would still represent and overmatch.

There is something going on in the tactical and strategic thinking on the use of their heavy armor. Where it was reported they had at least a 100 T-90M tanks we found out they had only 20 now 18.

Where are the T-72B3/B4 tanks? That tank was modified to correct the ammunition storage issues (Don, I see NO REASON to change that tank with possible exception of the RELIKT ERA values. ) that makes such a difference as compared against the other T-72 variants to include the T-73B3 which has also suffered losses in the Ukrainian War.

This also brings into question how many T-14/ARMATA tanks do they really have? I'm thinking now it's what you seen the Victory Day Parade and those are PROTOTYPES.

With the technical problems they've had for years now, the war and the sanctions having for some time taking hold now, this might be a true assessment of where they're at with the ARMATA.
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/russia-running-out-tanks-170901
(From last OCT.)
https://www.armyrecognition.com/ukraine_-_russia_conflict_war_2022/russian_huge_tank_losses_in_ukraine_lead_to_reacti vate_old_t-62_mbts.html
https://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and_tech/russia_to_prepare_soviet_era_t_62m_tanks_to_replen ish_reserves-3033.html

Some things to think about.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

DRG

May 25th, 2022, 02:34 PM

An "Oldie but Goodie" is being bought back into service apparently as seen in Ukraine this past March.

The T-62M/M1 are replacing Russian tank losses. It's actually a better tank then the T-64 which had a reputation for looking like a "Bonfire" when hit. It was a much worse in that regard then what we're seeing now with some of the T-72/80/90M tanks we've seen.

If the Ukraine gets the LEOPARD 1A5 that tank would still represent and overmatch.

There is something going on in the tactical and strategic thinking on the use of their heavy armor. Where it was reported they had at least a 100 T-90M tanks we found out they had only 20 now 18.

Where is the T-72B3/B4 tanks? That tank was modified to correct the ammunition storage issues (Don, I see NO REASON to change that tank with possible exception of the RELIKT ERA values. ) that is such a determent compared against the other T-72 variants to include the T-73B3 which has also suffered losses in the Ukrainian War.

This also brings into question how many T-14/ARMATA tanks do they really have? I'm thinking now it's what you seen the Victory Day Parade and those are PROTOTYPES.

With the technical problems they've had for years now, the war and the sanctions having for some time taking hold now, this might be a true assessment of where they're at with the ARMATA.
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/russia-running-out-tanks-170901
(From last OCT.)
https://www.armyrecognition.com/ukraine_-_russia_conflict_war_2022/russian_huge_tank_losses_in_ukraine_lead_to_reacti vate_old_t-62_mbts.html
https://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and_tech/russia_to_prepare_soviet_era_t_62m_tanks_to_replen ish_reserves-3033.html

Some things to think about.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

This is akin to the US refurbishing M60A1 RISE(ERA) and sending them someplace

Right now ANYTHING is possible.:doh:

This would be the Russian OOB unit 793

Fortunately, I don't have to add a unit, just extend the in-service date then add a formation that starts June 2022. We have lots of formation slots to burn. It won't show up between the end of 2011 and now so easy-peasey https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16734&stc=1&d=1653505237

FASTBOAT TOUGH

May 25th, 2022, 07:42 PM

If only they all could be that easy. Nice touch adding the "Z"!

Also, it looks potentially like the K2PL (Poland passed on this to get the M1A2P.) and I would think LEOPARD 2A7 tanks could be in play. Poland has aggressively been pursuing heavy armor options for the last few years. I further feel if they can make these deals, I further wouldn't be surprised if the Ukraine receives the Polish PT-91 TWARDY (UNIT 021.) tanks.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_may_2022_global_security_army_industr y/poland_to_acquire_korean_k2_german_leopard_2_tanks _to_replace_t-72s_donated_to_ukraine.html

The following is an abstract item but one for the real world of the Ukraine. This is "right up my alley" Demark is to send the Ukraine the HARPOON BLK II though the articles point out other target types, this is primarily designed to be a ship killer. For the Ukraine this would come in handy in destroying those ships that are "stealing" the grains that were stored in the ports lost to include the granaries as seen in the satellite pictures shown well, everywhere.

They are very capable of taking out moving sea vessels as well especially in the Sea of Azov and Black Sea which even compared to the Mediterranean Sea are just "oversized bathtubs". It'll take out any current (Or recently past.) surface combatant operating in those areas.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_may_2022_global_security_army_industr y/denmark_to_provide_ukraine_with_harpoon_coastal_de fense_anti-ship_missile_systems.html
https://www.naval-technology.com/projects/harpoon-block-ii-anti-ship-missile/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYj913i_VdA
(HARPOON)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijq6LiNlqJQ&t=86s
(HARPOON II)

16735 16736
(And ONLY 1 Mk-48 torpedo. I was there.)

The videos and pictures would've of course been more spectacular with fuel and ammo were aboard. We don't do that of course because of the environmental hazards. However, another country dumped their decommissioned submarine nuke reactors and other radioactive waste into the Kara Sea region.
https://www.nytimes.com/1992/11/24/science/soviet-nuclear-dumps-disclosed.html
https://polarjournal.ch/en/2021/09/06/nuclear-reactor-found-in-the-kara-sea/

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

DRG

May 26th, 2022, 08:07 AM

If only they all could be that easy. Nice touch adding the "Z"!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

I may add it to the SHP files and Icon list for scenario designers who want to be creative but adding that as new means using up another unit slot and I try to avoid that for trivial items when the OOB is nearly full and a T-62 in 2022 used on a modern battlefield that is highly infused with up to date anti tanks weapons pretty much defines "trivial"

Seriously..... if the Russians are digging out T-62s and sending them to the front they are getting desperate and I don't care how much reactive armour they slap on it's not going to slow much of anything used now down.

Who knows this may prompt a change in thinking and design. If you know no matter how much armour ( steel, ceramic, reactive) you throw on and something that costs 100 times less is going to turn it into junk then building lighter, faster, armoured vehicles is a way to have more of them.

The Armata reminds me in some ways of the bastard son of a T-35 and a Maus. They are just bigger targets and building them means less of what you really need

Aeraaa

May 26th, 2022, 08:47 AM

I think it is a symptom of prolonged warfare. The more the conflict drags on, the more probable it is for requirements to change from "A highly sophisticated state of the art tank" to "a tank". Same with infantry, both sides will have a much lower percentage of trained infantry the more this thing continues. And this btw is usually the reason why countries that fight for a long time dont necessarily have the best quality troops (as another example, see Iran-Iraq war).

T62 will still be useful as a modern day Stug IMHO. And for the type of warfare we witness, you dont really need an Armata, you need any moving cannon.

Karagin

May 26th, 2022, 10:11 AM

When high tech counters high tech which counters high tech ad-nauseam, then you are down to simple things that work. Everyone is so impressed and captivated over the wonder toys and forget that they are only as good as the training and all of them have a counter somewhere or in the works.

FASTBOAT TOUGH

May 30th, 2022, 09:00 PM

Unlike the "RHINO" that was mounted on the Sherman and developed by a SGT. that was decisive in the armor breakout from Normandy, the Russian "BRAZIER" hasn't worked so well even when modified to provide better protection as the article discusses.

I believe some officer came up this, thanks a lot sir!?!

I clearly stated when this first came up in this thread, they would not defeat a modern tandem ATGW warhead. We've all seen the pictures and videos.

I'm posting this because for one they're the first I've seen write about it and to discuss and show the measures they thought might improve the protection but also that they failed to stop the destruction.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/ukraine_-_russia_conflict_war_2022/mounting_cage_armor_on_top_of_tank_turrets_proves_ useless.html

Also, finally I leave with this video it exemplifies why here have Memorial Day to honor "those that gave the last full measure".
https://twitter.com/IAPonomarenko/status/1530854374955786241?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1530854374955786241%7Ctwgr% 5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.newsweek.com%2Fukraine-soldier-heroically-holds-off-russian-troops-all-himself-video-1711423

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

FASTBOAT TOUGH

June 4th, 2022, 11:59 AM

Just further confirmation of what I already reported on Russia bringing in the T-62M/MV tanks in the battle for Ukraine. In para 2 they provide a more conservative list of Russian tanks lost thus far to the date of the articles release.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/ukraine_-_russia_conflict_war_2022/russia_moves_t-62m_t-62mv_tanks_to_frontline_in_ukraine_to_compensate_h eavy_losses_of_modern_mbts.html

I'm kind've surprised that this wasn't already posted by a handful of our regulars out here, so I've held off (Though it's in my tracking file.) long enough. I believe two things are driving this tank acquisition and modernization program for Greece. One is obvious the Ukrainian War and the next maybe not so much but, in my opinion almost as important, Turkeys ALTAY program getting back on track that'll swing the MBT advantage more to their side.

What I found interesting is their desire to bring the LEOPARD 1A5 up to the LEOPARD 1A5+/A6 standard. As you might recall I threw the possibility of this for the Ukraine if they ever get those tanks from Germany (LEOPARD 2A5.) Again, the LEOPARD 1A5+/A6 is armed with the 120mm/L44 and would also be equipped with modern add-on armor applications.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_june_2022_global_security_army_indust ry/greece_keeps_modernizing_its_leopard_2a4_tanks_and _seeking_toma_lynx_ifvs.html

Someone is saying my time is up/lunch/shower/work and TGIF! :D

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Aeraaa

June 4th, 2022, 12:41 PM

Something that bothers me in this article: TOMA ( which should be capital letters since it is an abbreviation: Tethorakismeno Oxima MAkhis) literally means Armored Battle Vehicle and it basically means IFV. It is NOT how any individual vehicle is called, it's just a type designation.

webego

June 5th, 2022, 04:38 AM

Good analysis of the possible use of T-62 tanks in Ukraine.
https://topwar.ru/197041-t-62-potencial-primenenija-v-specoperacii-z.html?yrwinfo=1654418179052228-3513264571449657166-vla1-3880-vla-l7-balancer-8080-BAL-6222

FASTBOAT TOUGH

June 5th, 2022, 12:55 PM

Well, the Ukraine won't have to worry about the LEOPARD 1A5 from Germany (Though the following will probably make it easier politically for them to send them now.) because they got an upgrade.

Spain retired their LEOPARD 2A4 tanks at least 10 years ago
and since I don't feel like typing a whole lot right now, I'll quote the source...
"Spain is also ready to deliver 40 Leopard 2A4 tanks that have been stored for a decade in a logistics base of the Spanish army. At the same time, Spain will train the Ukraine soldiers to operate these tanks. The training will be conducted by Spanish soldiers deployed in Latvia, where the Spanish Army has a contingent of 500 soldiers with six Leopard 2E tanks, within the framework of NATO's Enhanced Advanced Presence (EFP) operation."

Spain has 108 of these tanks in storage and they are maintained ready for combat as part of their strategic reserve. This could represent a potential for a second shipment I would guess in the range of 20-40 tanks at a later date, depending on their perceived need of their future defensive needs.

This not out there but is my analysis of the situation as I have further information in my files concerning Spain and its armor.

The tanks are a "DONE DEAL" the "also" refers to the fact that Germany has yet to approve the STOP here...
"The shipment of the Aspide missile systems, produced by the European missile company MBDA, is pending completion of the negotiations through a cell in Germany that is in charge to coordinate the military aid to Ukraine. The Aspide is no longer in service with the Spanish army and it was replaced by a more modern air defense system."
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_june_2022_global_security_army_indust ry/spain_approves_delivery_to_ukraine_of_40_leopard_2 a4_tanks_and_aspide_missile_systems.html

SO, GERMANY HAS APPROVED THE TANK TRANSFER/OPENS THE DOOR FOR POSSIBLE GERMAN LEOPARD 1A5 TRANSFER/ASPIDE MEDIUM RANGE (20km+/AND STILL EFFECTIVE) SAM PENDING GERMAN APPROVAL/I EXPECT THE LEOPARD 2A4 TO BE IN SERVICE BY SEP/OCT AT LATEST/BUT THE UKRAINIANS HAVE CAUGHT ON HOW TO USE THESE ADVANCED SYSTEMS ALOT SOONER THEN I THINK MOST THOUGHT THEY COULD

And there you have it.

Regards
Pat
:capt:

DRG

June 5th, 2022, 02:54 PM

Thanks Pat. Needless to say " keep me posted"

Re" THE UKRAINIANS HAVE CAUGHT ON HOW TO USE THESE ADVANCED SYSTEMS ALOT SOONER THEN I THINK MOST THOUGHT THEY COULD"

Yeah no doubt quite a BIT of " surprise " for that nation on Ukraine's eastern border as well........

These " advanced systems" for the most part are a decade or two old tech and Ukraine is hardly a technological backwater with no experience in high tech military equipment.... the HIGHLY effective use of drones is proof of that.......and they have been engaged in low and high-intensity combat for 8 years and prior to 2014, Ukraine was the world's 4th largest arms exporter.

When you underestimate your opponent, wars that were supposed to be over in a week or two drag on for months with no end in sight

webego

June 5th, 2022, 04:28 PM

Don, just wondering, did any of the official sources of the President of Russia announce a quick military operation?

webego

June 5th, 2022, 04:35 PM

My opinion. Even if the plans included a quick military operation, the actions of the enemy can change it - this is a fact. Geopolitics will take over. Russia will take over.

DRG

June 5th, 2022, 06:53 PM

Regardless of any announcement of a "quick military operation" all the signs that this was thought to be over quick were apparent from the start

but.....

there was NO legitimate excuse at all for the invasion.

And I DO NOT care what Russians believe or were told.

IS THAT CLEAR ENOUGH FOR YOU ??

FASTBOAT TOUGH

June 5th, 2022, 11:30 PM

I found the following ONLY because of the articles title which should be obvious to everyone I've been tracking to the best of my ability for some time well before there was a war this is what I've done for a longtime now.

What caught my attention immediately was what's in para 1.
What we thought. Which has been well publicized

This is a nice short and to the point overview article of the war and its uncertain future.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/how-the-us-is-arming-ukraine/ss-AAY7huE?bk=1&ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=e64c05df8d9a496284b691c68f202b52

This is no time nor the place for "Waving the Flag" lest we forget people are dying while we're playing a game.

Our time has come and gone as are those whom we took our orders (Or gave to.) as are the leaders who've made the decisions to carry out what's good for our "National Interests".

It's hard I know as I'm trying NOT to express my personal views out here and it's difficult at times NOT to do so. I GET IT.

Some people probably don't realize how many times and how close we came to the "ultimate battle" during the Cold War there's a (was) Russian Colonel who was in Moscow in 1983 when his superiors thought they were incoming missiles. He refused to launch based I what he thought was really going on.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-24280831

Or the Russian submarine (B-19) Captain who refused to do the same in the games we played with them and they with us and reminds me of the movie "The Bedford Incident" except that it had a different ending.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/oct/27/vasili-arkhipov-stopped-nuclear-war

We watched what it was like to die a slow death on a submarine when the KURSK sank every day in our OPCON until the end. I cannot express the anger we all felt or the other emotions we had leading up to the needless death of that crew because of national pride when the handful of countries that have DSRV's or similar system could've been on site within 24hrs.
Like 9/11 (We were in the OPCON for that as well.) we'll always remember the KURSK.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=DSRV&docid=608028302711739301&mid=57C94EF41B1A5725CF8157C94EF41B1A5725CF81&view=detail&FORM=VIRE

We have newer systems now, but the procedures are very similar to the video. These were still in service when I was in and would see the next version before I retired.

In case the KURSK gets a reaction possibly from some front, in my "shadow box" I have a set of my Submarine "Dolphins", an RN Officers Submarine "Dolphins" below and left of mine and finally in the same position to the right a Soviet Commanding Officers "Dolphins" because of what I experienced in our shared "environment" we respected them for their PROFESSIONALISM.

I have no time for this, the matter will get settled without our help.

My only concern at the moment is to ensure that CINCLANTHOME has a wonderful Birthday tomorrow as we spend the day together as we see the new "DOWNTON ABBEY" movie- OH LUCKY ME!?! ;)

Before I forget one of the things, I got her was the ANCESTRY 6-MONTH "Go crazy as our files are fully open to you!" in a day she so far has traced her dad's family back to 1676 in Edinburgh, Scotland!

ANDY she could be related to you!! :D

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

FASTBOAT TOUGH

June 6th, 2022, 08:17 PM

Looks like the T-62 has arrived in the Ukrainian theatre of operations.

I would also bring your attention to the video REF. 2. showing a Russian T-72B3 hitting a couple of mines. The 2nd would disable it and the "coup de grâce" was delivered by a precision artillery round probably lased by the drone filming the tank. Don't if it was the Ukrainian precision one (Which has already been shown to be effective.) or our EXCALIBUR.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2022/06/06/russias-ancient-t-62-tanks-are-on-the-move-in-ukraine/?sh=8bddaeb12be5
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=T-72B3++TANK+RUNS+OVER+TWO+MINES+VIDEO&docid=13989857809336&mid=F809CF9E88C564284CB1F809CF9E88C564284CB1&view=detail&FORM=VIRE

Funny I only saw one guy survive that!?!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

DRG

June 7th, 2022, 03:04 AM

Some of the T-62 tanks Russia pulled from mothballs and sent to Ukraine have been spotted on the battlefield sporting improvised armor 'cages' on top of their turrets. This suggests that Russian forces are well aware of how vulnerable these ancient armored vehicles are to Ukrainian anti-tank weapons.

The T-62 medium tanks, reportedly spotted in the southern Kherson region, are fitted with what appears to be raised slat or cage armor, designed to mitigate top-attack profiles used by many anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs), like U.S.-supplied Javelins, and the effects of drones dropping munitions on top of the vehicle.

These tanks also sport some sort of improvised shield or plate armor mounted vertically on the deck behind the turret. That plate also could be the tank’s engine hatch, raised to give the turret some protection from the rear.

...... and are not carrying fuel tanks on the back of the hull

Looking close at the photos it does seem to be the engine hatch raised though how much "protection" that would give is questionable

The tanks appear to be wearing warehouse codes in white paint along the sides of their hulls, which begs the question of how much maintenance attention the vehicles received after being pulled from long-term storage and rushed to Eastern Ukraine.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/ancient-russian-t-62-tanks-spotted-wearing-cage-armor-in-ukraine

https://www.thedrive.com/uploads/2022/06/06/T-62s-in-Kherson-with-cage-armor.jpg?auto=webp&auto=webp&optimize=high&quality=70&width=1920

re: T-72B3

The conversation he was having on his cell phone would be interesting....

webego

June 7th, 2022, 05:54 AM

Russia used old tanks in exercises (for example, in 2019)
https://rg.ru/2019/08/30/ne-tolko-t-62-na-ucheniiah-zamecheny-t-72a-i-t-72av.html

FASTBOAT TOUGH

June 7th, 2022, 01:04 PM

It's "ironic" to maybe see the buyer become the spare parts supplier to the seller.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_june_2022_global_security_army_indust ry/thai_army_could_supply_ukrainian_army_with_its_spa re_parts_and_components.html

If I were the Ukrainians, I'd "take the deal" if offered. Those two companies mentioned in the article are supposedly manufacturing quality military grade parts. It might take some pressure off the domestic supplier for the same considering all the rest of the equipment they have to worry about.

The T-84 OPLOT (Not the "M") has been reported as being in action last week on the Eastern Front.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

KAreil

June 13th, 2022, 02:49 PM

There is a new "Panther" on the horizon :shock:

"Rheinmetall Presents KF51 Panther At Eurosatory 2022"

https://www.joint-forces.com/defence-equipment-news/54719-rheinmetall-presents-kf51-panther-at-eurosatory-2022

Promotion Video:

https://youtu.be/fTBA5tQsDbE

DRG

June 13th, 2022, 03:32 PM

If anyone sees a top view of this please let me know

https://www.shephardmedia.com/media/cache/images/redactor_uploads/2022/06/13/Rheinmetalll_KF51_-_5k/dd8308fa9857cc194528a63f80f7e7e8.jpg

Integrating a launcher for HERO 120 loitering munition from Rheinmetall’s partner UVision into the turret is equally possible. This enhances the KF51’s ability to strike targets beyond the direct line of sight.

Karagin

June 13th, 2022, 11:24 PM

So anything on the KWI Leopard 2A7VA1 that was at the same show?

FASTBOAT TOUGH

June 13th, 2022, 11:33 PM

This video should give you all the angles you'll need by freezing the frame.

It's ashamed we'll never see it.

There is already talk that if this "concept" moves along it could jeopardize the Franco/German LEOPARD 3 Project. This could lead to some diplomatic complications.

As the video points out there are still some "what ifs" to be resolved but that's what "concept" equipment are meant to do-push the R&D outside of the current design boundaries.
Certainly bears watching.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=KF51+IMAGES&docid=13852777947341&mid=BA15A1EE791AF6E2E936BA15A1EE791AF6E2E936&view=detail&FORM=VIRE

What we might see is the BOXER A2 mounting a 50mm MG. The BUNDESWEHR apparently is already testing the PROTOTYPE from a couple of refs I have at this time.

On LEOPARD 2A7VA1 I can't find anything solid, however there is a LEOPARD 2A7A1 this simply indicates that it mounts APS TROPHY. I'm sure that "A1" indicates a "modified unit (Or similar wording.) ". So, LEOPARD 2A7V with APS TROPHY should be the LEOPARD 2A7VA1. Germany ordered late last year around 200 TROPHY Systems.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Karagin

June 14th, 2022, 08:37 AM

The reason I am asking is that I have a cool picture over on Facebook of the Leo 2A7VA1 or so it's listed as being at the same show as the wonder tank, and they had just the one, Leo.

I tried to share the picture and the forums here didn't like that idea. Unless I missed how to upload a picture that doesn't require a link.

DRG

June 14th, 2022, 08:49 AM

Freezing a frame gave me " close enough "

From a top down game Icon perspective, it's not really a whole lot different than the 2a7

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16749&stc=1&d=1655211053

Karagin

June 14th, 2022, 06:39 PM

Here is the picture.

FASTBOAT TOUGH

June 15th, 2022, 02:50 AM

Karigin - I took your picture and saved it so I could "blow it up" to be sure; they added APS TROPHY as I suspected in my last post.

Looking at the picture to the left and level with the MG on the turret you'll see the standard 8-sided TROPHY "radar" cover you can also make out the same on the right side but with a "raised" profile due to the angle of the picture.

BUNDESWEHR plan is to mount TROPHY on a Company (17) of LEOPARD 2A7V(A1) for an upcoming NATO deployment in OCT. 2022 as I had already reported awhile back. This would result in a request to push back the START date due to final deliveries of the tanks to get this first German unit fully equipped.

I didn't see anything else to indicate any other equipment was outwardly added besides the APS TROPHY as compared to the LEOPARD 2A7V.

What I'm waiting on is a final decision by the BUNDESWEHR if they intend to mount the FLW 200 w/20mm AC as has been proposed.

Corrected my :doh: LEOPARD 2A6V(A1) to the CORRECT LEOPARD 2A7V(A1) in para 3 above. Sorry for any confusion.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Karagin

June 15th, 2022, 08:44 AM

So are they planning on putting the Trophy on all the LEO2s or just the 17 for the exercise? I can see the test run, but the way things are going one would think they would want it on all of their AFVs.

DRG

June 15th, 2022, 10:43 AM

Betting there will be a lot of tests with ATGM with dummy WH to see if it works better than......some other systems do ( assuming of course those "other systems" were even installed and activated )

Karagin

June 15th, 2022, 07:11 PM

https://va.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_rdhmkaeMeu1vmay6q.mp4

Video of the Leopard 2A7/LeClerc Hybrid thing

FASTBOAT TOUGH

June 20th, 2022, 09:29 PM

Some might remember concerning the tentative transfer of the German LEOPARD 1A5 to the Ukraine, that one of the options could be to simply update the current 105mm L7A3 with the 120mm/L44.

That's old news as it was a simple modification that was tested and approved for operations with the LEOPARD 1A6. Along with having the same 120mm/L44 it was to have had also the same FCS as the LEOPARD 2.

But that was the problem they were ready to mass produce the same LEOPARD 2. We all know how that ended.

Though again still currently being "kicked around" for the Ukraine, the next makes me at least wonder if something else might be afoot from a totally non conspirial point of view.

Of all the platforms to choose from that are available they decided to mount the following on a LEOPARD 1 NOW. What impeccable timing.
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/land-forces/latest/eurosatory-2022-cockerill-3105-turret-installed-on-leopard-1
https://www.armyrecognition.com/eurosatory_2022_news_official_online_daily/john_cockerill_presents_new_modernization_of_leopa rd_1_tank_fitted_with_3105_weapon_station.html
https://johncockerillda.com/products-services/3000-series/cockerill-3105//
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=cockerill+3105+turret+on+the+LEOPARD+1+ta nk&docid=13921689604210&mid=FAF7EFFA870439DE8735FAF7EFFA870439DE8735&view=detail&FORM=VIRE

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

FASTBOAT TOUGH

June 20th, 2022, 11:11 PM

Wish I had checked into the EDR site sooner to add it to my last post. But I'm here now, because of the KF-51 which in its first full "coming out party" within 2 hours at Eurosatory 2022 was renamed the PANTHER which would seem an appropriate choice.

So, for a deeper read on the PANTHER I give you the following.
https://www.edrmagazine.eu/rheinmetalls-first-mbt-the-panther

I found it interesting that Rheinmetall used the following as taken from this article; "As said the hull protection was upgraded using the same concept adopted on the turret, the design having however to cope with some physical constraints, the Panther turret having the same slip-ring diameter of the Leopard 2. “In 2021 we did extensive trials with the 130 mm fitted to a Challenger chassis, and although the recoil is slightly higher no problems emerged for the hull,” Christoph Henselmann told us."

I decided to post the following for one simple reason in the captions they use words like "supposedly"/"might be"/"likely"/"possibly"/"could be" and so forth. If you're uncomfortable seeing dead bodies just "move along little doggy" to something else.
http://www.military-today.com/ukraine.htm

You'll see the man in charge of the site in some of the pictures he's the one you see when you are on the main page. He has sources in Russia maybe, that's how he got the "Russian" pictures.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Karagin

June 20th, 2022, 11:38 PM

While that is cool, the only way this new Panther is going to be a reality is if they convince the US MIC to take it and replace the Abrams with it. Doubtful that will happen.

Imp

June 24th, 2022, 08:33 PM

Is it me or are some of the decisions with the KF-51 odd?
Auto loader makes sense due to the size of the projectile but they kept the 4th crew position?
If I understand correctly he is the drone controller if they fit attack drones. To me it makes sense to fit recon drones in a heavily protected vehicle it can stop in cover & send them out say before cresting a hill or moving near buildings. This can be covered by the regular crew a feed to the driver might be handy. Why not put the none LOS weapons in a cheap light vehicle that follows? It could have 3 or 4 controllers on board & carry say NLOS & drones the tank acts as spotter because its not fragile.

So space taken up by a 4th crew man you do not need & they all have their own separate armoured compartments. Hmm T-14 makes sense to give the same comparative protection would one box not make sense instead of several its got to need more material. Plus communication & space issues.

Possibly why both machineguns have gone to 7.62mm to save ammo space because a lot of the space seems wasted to me. I suppose in a limited engagement with no support stand off would be useful but it seems a bit of a Frankenstein vehicle to me we have combined arms call in the support vehicle or artillery & use it as heavy recon. After all they are a lot cheaper so why compromise the expensive vehicle?

FASTBOAT TOUGH

June 28th, 2022, 01:24 AM

This is where we're at as of 24 June concerning U.S. weapons sent and enroute to the Ukraine.

This DOES NOT include the newest weapons package agreed to at the G7 this past Sat. which will send another battery of both HIMARS and HARPOON, more 105mm ammo, NASAMS, Coastal and Riverine craft as well as the JAVALIN and STINGER systems plus more. Notably more of our trucks as already posted to tow and resupply the 18 more 155mm M777/M777A2 systems about to be sent and those already there. I'm trying to verify we haven't sent them our towed M119A3 105mm. We've sent a whole lot of 105mm ammo so far as have some other countries. Ukraine is currently training on the New Zealand L119 105mm pieces and said training will be completed by the end of JULY.
https://www.defense.gov/News/Releases/Release/Article/3073551/fact-sheet-on-us-security-assistance-to-ukraine/

I put this here as it's from a reliable source and because this thread will provide the widest distribution for those interested.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

DRG

June 28th, 2022, 07:13 AM

https://www.armyrecognition.com/ukraine_-_russia_conflict_war_2022/analysis_discover_list_new_artillery_power_of_ukra inian_army_after_delivery_of_foreign_equipment.htm l

FASTBOAT TOUGH

July 2nd, 2022, 12:00 PM

I hope to post a little tank news over my weekend but, in the meantime the NATO question has been resolved on my birthday and as I predicted (For the month anyway.) when the issue was raised. It's now just a matter of formality but, "done is done".

Anything can be negotiated.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/finland-and-sweden-are-officially-invited-to-join-nato/vi-AAZ0kmW?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=ccdd4c77752140fb8bdee35c15448dfd&category=foryou

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

DRG

July 2nd, 2022, 05:46 PM

Be interesting to see what Turkey gets as the price of acceptance. Can't imagine they did it without some kickback

Aeraaa

July 3rd, 2022, 03:07 AM

Finally being able to upgrade their F16s could be one explanation.

blazejos

July 18th, 2022, 03:48 AM

First Abrams tanks already today 18 July arrived to Poland

https://www.tvp.info/61350272/czolgi-abrams-dla-polski-blaszczak-pierwsze-sa-juz-w-kraju-pokazal-zdjecie

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FX7V-g5XgAEJQZv?format=jpg&name=4096x4096

DRG

July 18th, 2022, 07:25 AM

Yes but the article also says......

on which the soldiers of the Polish Army will be trained

So they are arriving in Poland but not yet operational......... but they have started to arrive which is " a good thing"

FASTBOAT TOUGH

July 18th, 2022, 11:35 PM

I also see no APS Trophy. And they are likely the M1A2 tanks that were to be supplied for training purposes as part of the deal for them to get the M1A2P tanks which were included in that package.

Poland has also requested from us to get the ABRAMS M1A1 in exchange for a full transfer to the Ukraine of their PT-91 tanks. If approved, those tanks are expected to come from the former USMC M1A1 tanks that haven't been converted over to the M1A2C.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_july_2022_global_security_army_indust ry/poland_could_provide_local-made_pt-91_tanks_in_exchange_for_us_m1_abrams_mbts.html
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_july_2022_global_security_army_indust ry/poland_agrees_on_the_purchase_of_116_us_second-hand_m1_abrams_main_battle_tanks.html
(Notice the "discipline" in the use of nomenclature names of the tanks discussed. No FEP anywhere.)

Ref. 2 in paras 5 & 6 CONFIRMS the one thing, as I've stated already when the USMC started turning over their tanks to the USA, that the last to go will be the M1A1 FEP tanks. They'll also be the easiest to convent over to the M1A2C.

As I'm in Va. at the moment on a long overdue and needed vacation I haven't checked my "newspapers" since last Sat. before work. Found the second ref. as I was writing this. This to explain any "disconnect" in this post.

Also remember those USMA tanks WILL BE "denuded" of their DU Armor and advanced Electronics. The Iraqi M1A1 SA tanks make sense for these tanks. Sorry can't get you the game UNIT # as I'm far, far away.

As expected and hoped for 95 feels like it here and NOT like 105 and humid back home-best part my daughter doesn't require me to wear the body armor here!!

I still feel the Ukraine will at some point get the PT-91 tanks I feel by mid to late Fall or end of the year depending how the war goes. Putin is all in with talk of a coordinated 3-pronged attack from the North, East and SE.

If it comes the "clock is ticking" for the Russians they'd need to start it by this time next month or end for any chance of success before the weather will stall the drive.

Also, Belarus would be the "key" for the attack from the North. There are already confirmed reports some of their commanders would refuse to cross the border for offensive operations against Ukraine.

Time will tell.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

FASTBOAT TOUGH

July 19th, 2022, 12:58 PM

I must apologize, from Para 1 of my last post (And now corrected.) I identified those tanks incorrectly as being M1A1 tanks.

They are in reality the M1A2 (28 UNITS) tanks which I did manage to correctly identify as the tanks to be used as training platforms for the M1A2P due to start production in late 2024 and with delivery of the first tanks to start sometime in 2025.

But also, of the below following Para from this next ref. in which I've "highlighted" my concern as I thought shortly after the last patch, I saw this tank was "operational" I speak of the LEOPARD 2PL.

Again, not at home and can't verify that against the OOB. Just my memory telling me so is all.

If the START isn't an issue this is an UPDATE to its status. If OPERATIONAL in the game could be another matter of "THEY GOT THEIR FIRST ONE" again.

"Before the war in Ukraine, Poland had a total of 137 Leopard 2A4 (being upgraded to 2PL) 105 Leopard 2A5, 5 Leopard 2PL (in test) 232 PT-91 Twardy, and 329 T-72A/T-72M1. There are also rumors that Poland could also give its PT-91s MBTs to Ukraine."
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_july_2022_global_security_army_indust ry/first_batch_of_28_us_m1a2_abrams_tanks_for_polish_ army_arrives_in_poland.html

Again, If I caused any confusion, sorry. There now is "balance in the universe". :cool:

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

FASTBOAT TOUGH

July 20th, 2022, 09:35 PM

As we (And the many countries that have bought their armor as well.) are finding out they aren't as good as they advertised. And the signs were already there years ago if we (Not us here.) had paid more attention. Right "off the bat" Egypt comes to mind in its massive shift from Russian armor to American armor for well over a decade now.

Let me remind you that Egypt have had enough combat experience against an army from a small country called Israel. Though strong leadership and training played a major role in their success against Egypt (+ Syria) but so did in most cases they had better tanks as well.

Egypt has learned from their mistake, Syria has not.

In the "Cold War" we feared the mass of Russian armor (However with the advent of the T-80 and they were stationed in East Germany (Only Warsaw Pact country to have them outside of Russia.) did cause some worries for NATO. But fortunately for NATO Russia feared the "DRAGON" ATGW.

If only they knew what we did, they might've given it a try. I posted at least twice maybe in this thread or one labeled "CIA something" the CIA documents that were released after the collapse of the Soviet Union in the mid 90's that discussed both these topics and more.

Other examples of the "signs" should've been the Afghan/Russian War and when I finally we think we woke up and realized "The only thing we have to fear, is fear itself" and overcame that in both Iraqi Wars.

Maybe in my favorite of all tank countries INDIA that again just MAYBE they'll wake to the fact they have a GREAT tank in the ARJUN which we have both in the game and the current development of a lightweight tank to counter the Chinese TYPE 15 in the mountainous areas of India. Also, they will probably have to deal with an "unfriendly" Pakistan for some time to come.

As of this writing depending on source it appears Russia has lost 8-10 of their best tanks the T-90M.

That's about 1/2 of their total fielded force.

Here's the story and all I can say to a point I made above is maybe the Russian Army had wished they could've sent some of their Armor commanders and crews for training in Israel.
https://www.newsweek.com/russia-tanks-destroyed-mass-losses-ukraine-war-us-weapons-1725661
Some of the above from the Moscow Times with link to their story.

This as good as any location for the following. We are it looks like going to commit to giving longer range anti-ship missiles to the Ukraine. Using my naval training and having operated "restricted waters" the "bathtubs" called the Sea of Azov and the Black Sea might soon afford no "safe harbor" anywhere in those waters.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ukraine-preparing-to-target-russia-s-black-sea-fleet-with-western-weapons/ar-AAZKQs9?ocid=mailsignout&pc=U591&cvid=c1380bf3f43c445aa980eed590efe09b

Ukraine has recently commented that the Crimea will be considered as legitimate target inside their country. I believe I also read that in one of the above articles.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:
'

Karagin

July 20th, 2022, 10:13 PM

The MIC sold us on the dangers of the Soviet war machine and how we needed to keep making stuff and advance our tech to beat their numbers...

FASTBOAT TOUGH

July 21st, 2022, 06:22 PM

Today we hit on what Poland will be getting from South Korea.

Before I go on, ensure "you don't get your panties in a wad" because this deal is a long way off.

First it is hoped that both parties will have possibly by the end of the month either an MOU (Memorandum Of Understanding) or an MOA (Memorandum Of Agreement) which is a more binding agreement BUT, NOT A CONTRACT.

The deal is apparently worth 2.3 trillion dollars.

Poland will get 180 K2 Black Panther MBTs, 670 K9 Thunder 155mm howitzers and 48 FA-50s (Supersonic Trainer/Light Attack aircraft. These are generally considered the best in this type of craft in the world.) and will apparently receive 20 of them this year.

Don, I remember having discussions on the K2PL but I can't remember that we modeled them. Like how we modeled the foreign sales U.S. M1A2C, I see the foreign sales K2 somewhere between the K1 and K2.

Poland wants the K9 due to issues that the KRAB (Based on the K9.) has been suffering from since it entered service.

I strongly caution everyone we probably except for the jets as noted, will be unlikely to see the tanks and the artillery is up in the air.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_july_2022_global_security_army_indust ry/south_korea_to_sign_agreement_with_poland_for_deli very_of_k2_tanks_-_k9_howitzers_and_fa-50_fighter.html

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

DRG

July 21st, 2022, 06:58 PM

Gonna " wait and see " for this one. It is a bit of change in direction

FASTBOAT TOUGH

July 22nd, 2022, 12:45 PM

That's my thinking as well. I just couldn't remember if we had gotten to the K2 in the same way we reached agreement on the M1A2C in modeling both the M1A2T (Taiwan) and M1A2P (Poland) which for those that don't know are in the game.

When the vacation goes back to reality at home, I'll check my MBT file as I believe one or two countries elsewhere are or are close to making a decision concerning the K2.

If so, I'll "crunch" some numbers. It'll still fall in between the K1 and K2.

Depending on the status of the K2 PIP I might "boost" the numbers in a higher % then what I'm thinking now w/o the K2 PIP in the equation.

My files with status of the other foreign sales(?) and the K2 PIP will determine if I proceed or not.

Otherwise, I'm sure we'll have a long wait in regard to Poland.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

blazejos

July 24th, 2022, 03:54 AM

Here some info from Ukrainian side that they will receive PT-91 Twardy in near future

https://en.defence-ua.com/industries/what_is_special_about_polish_pt_91_twardy_tanks_wh ich_ukraine_is_about_to_receive-3628.html

And here older article also from Ukrainian source about T-72M1 and T-72M1R which was revived from Poland in April.

https://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and_tech/polish_tanks_given_to_ukraine_turned_out_to_be_the _latest_2019_modernization_of_the_t_72m1r_video-2770.html

FASTBOAT TOUGH

July 25th, 2022, 02:21 PM

Well, according to these two sites it sounds very much like the Ukraine has received within the last week an unspecified number of PT-91 Twardy tanks. The following taken is from ref. 2 below.

"Last week, Jarosław Wolski reported that Poland had delivered PT-91 Twardy tanks to Ukraine. "We certainly won't send 230 Hard, or at least I haven't heard anything about it. On the other hand, we sent Twarde, in a significant number. The wagons reached the Ukrainians. But these are things that should simply come from the Ukrainians," he said."

Looks like Poland had originally asked the U.S. for 300 M1A1 tanks. They reduced that to 118 units due to maintenace and support costs.

So, there is our connection to the K2. Due the size of the deal as I've already posted this past week with South Korea, to my thinking this might "kill" or further delay beyond our time horizon the M1A2P.

We'll as ALREADY discussed just have to wait out the M1A2P outcome "one way or another" as to a final decision.

I had to use my translator (MS) for ref. 2.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_july_2022_global_security_army_indust ry/poland_sent_local-made_pt-91_twardy_tanks_as_part_of_its_military_aid_to_ukr aine.html
https://kresy.pl/wydarzenia/rzecznik-agencji-uzbrojenia-potwierdza-wyslanie-pt-91-na-ukraine/

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Karagin

July 25th, 2022, 05:29 PM

The world of international arms deals and such are murky and changing all the time.

blazejos

July 26th, 2022, 04:27 AM

Is already official PT-91 Twardy is already on Ukraine their official site Ministry of defense:

https://mil.in.ua/en/news/ukraine-receives-pt-91-twardy-tanks-from-poland/

https://defence24.com/polish-pt-91-twardy-tanks-sent-to-ukraine-commentary

https://twitter.com/AndriyYermak/status/1551480277427421185?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1551480277427421185%7Ctwgr% 5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.instalki.pl%2Faktualnosc i%2Ftechnika%2F55102-polskie-czolgi-pt-91-twardy-przekazane-ukrainie-co-potrafia.html

https://twitter.com/IAPonomarenko/status/1551490366834200577?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1551490366834200577%7Ctwgr% 5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.instalki.pl%2Faktualnosc i%2Ftechnika%2F55102-polskie-czolgi-pt-91-twardy-przekazane-ukrainie-co-potrafia.html

https://mezha.media/en/2022/07/25/polish-tanks-pt-91-twardy-are-in-ukraine/

https://www-instalki-pl.translate.goog/aktualnosci/technika/55102-polskie-czolgi-pt-91-twardy-przekazane-ukrainie-co-potrafia.html?_x_tr_sl=pl&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=pl&_x_tr_pto=wapp

Also about new ammo with longer radius for Ukr Krab's from ... Slovakia
https://mil.in.ua/en/news/ukrainian-krab-self-propelled-guns-received-slovak-155mm-rounds/

MarkSheppard

July 26th, 2022, 05:15 AM

This includes other things (not pure MBTs, but here we go)

Polish shopping plans:

MBT's:

- 116 M1A1SA to be upgraded to M1A2SEPv3.

- 250 new built M1A2SEPv3.

- 180 K2 to be upgraded to K2PL.

- 820 K2PL produced in RoK and Poland.

- K3PL a future MBT developed in cooperation between Poland and Republic of Korea.

- T-72's, PT-91's and Leopard 2's will be completely withdrawn from service.

IFV's:

- 1000-1400 Borsuk IFV.

- Heavy IFV based on AS21 Redback, total numbers to be procured unknown at this moment.

155mm SPH's:

- 144 AHS Krab.

- 48 K9A1 to be upgraded in future to K9PL.

- 642 K9PL based on K9A2.

- Codevelopment between Poland and Republic of Korea for next generation 155mm SPH.

MLRS:

- Polish MoD is interested in K239 Chunmoo to supplement procurement of M142 HIMARS and WR-40 Langusta-2.

Above is taken from Damian Ratka whom is cited also in this recent Warzone article:

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/big-south-korea-polish-arms-deal-includes-fa-50-fighters-k2-tanks-k9-howitzers

blazejos

July 28th, 2022, 08:20 AM

Some info about captured Russian tanks in Ukrainians hands

T-80BVM
https://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and_tech/ukrainian_tank_crew_shares_the_experience_of_drivi ng_a_seized_russian_newest_t_80bvm-3696.html

T-80UK
https://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and_tech/russias_t_80uk_failed_tank_biathlon_now_a_trophy_f or_the_armed_forces_of_ukraine_tank_specification-3580.html

Here Russia preparing older T-62M from reserves
https://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and_tech/russia_to_prepare_soviet_era_t_62m_tanks_to_replen ish_reserves-3033.html

FASTBOAT TOUGH

July 28th, 2022, 12:50 PM

South Korean and Polish K2/K9 & FA-50 Trainer and Light Attack jets contract has been signed.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_july_2022_global_security_army_indust ry/poland_signs_contracts_with_south_korea_to_purchas e_k2_tanks_k9_howitzers_fa-50_fighter.html

No time for breakdown.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

FASTBOAT TOUGH

July 31st, 2022, 04:11 PM

Well after decades of asking and a lot of maybes from us, finally it looks as if TAIWAN is going to get their first American tanks in decades.

This is the first time a contract has been awarded and money given to support production Taiwanese tanks in in particular the M1A2T as we entered in the last patch (Along with the M1A2P). I now have more confidence in the START date but, as expressed contingent on the U.S. having to get the process going before the end of this Fiscal Year. That's now accomplished.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_july_2022_global_security_army_indust ry/general_dynamics_contract_to_support_production_of _m1a2t_tanks_for_taiwan.html

The recovery vehicle aside (Nongame issue.) they will receive both the M1070Al Heavy Equipment Transporter (HET) (As they don't have the transport capability to move those tanks.) and ammo resupply vehicles.
https://www.military-today.com/trucks/m1070a1.htm

North Macedonia I don't believe is represented in the game. And neither is the fact that they donated their T-72A tanks to the Ukraine (Though they will be getting an as yet undisclosed Western tanks as replacements to equipment a full Battalion.) going to have a game impact. However, what caught my eye was the specific ammo loadout for the T-72A. Could be useful or fall into the category of "whatever" :dk: in either case here, you have it...

"The tank carries a total of 39 rounds, 12 are APFSDS-T, 21 HE-FRAG(FS), and the remaining six HEAT-FS. The additional rounds of ammunition are stowed in racks behind the turret basket and in indentations in the rear floor fuel cell and second forward right cell near the driver. " To the second "highlighted" portion of the above para, the rest of ammo stored on the fuel cell locations, are you kidding me!?! :doh:
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_july_2022_global_security_army_indust ry/north_macedonia_donates_its_t-72_main_battle_tanks_to_ukraine_in_echange_of_west ern_tanks.html

Well, I guess I should shower up before the dinner bell! After playing around yesterday in "the Sun and fun at work" at a comfortable ~112 w/heat index yeah, I'm literally "chillin' out" in the "man cave"! :cool:

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

FASTBOAT TOUGH

September 19th, 2022, 02:13 AM

I see it's been a while since I (Or anyone.) posted anything and these I've held for a bit as the dates will show. Both are important, at least to some of us anyway due to where we're talking about. And the Polish issue turned into a "cluster puck" as you'll see when you get to it. I think I got it sorted out! :rolleyes:

Morocco: I'm just going to make this easy though you'll see due to the request from them that the end of tanks as already posted is to occur in early/mid 2023. Depending on what we decide to give to Morocco. From the ref. my comments will be in bold.

"The Government of Morocco has requested to purchase enhancements to one hundred sixty-two (162) Abrams tanks procured through the Excess Defense Article (EDA) program to one of the following variants: M1A1 Situational Awareness (baseline version), M1A2M (If they get this tank it'll be the same one we built for Taiwan M1A2T and Poland M1A2P. (includes Commander’s Independent Thermal Viewer) or M1A1 U.S. Marine Corps version (includes Slew to Cue) (Well that'll be the FEP WITH armor adjustments due to DU REMOVAL.)."
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_september_2022_global_security_army_i ndustry/morocco_army_to_receive_m1a2_abrams_mbts_after_m1a 1_sa.html

As I had already reported concerning the Foreign Sales M1A2 SEP V2 as discussed above for Morocco, the only country to see them would be TAIWAN (By the refs at the time.) before games end and the following will further back that up from those refs and my thoughts on those tanks as well at the time.
TAIWAN has gotten their first M1A2T and has started training on it with their instructors per SOP.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_september_2022_global_security_army_i ndustry/taiwan_army_training_on_first_m1a2t_abrams_deliver ed_in_june.html
https://twitter.com/ronkainen7k15/status/1569204180509917185

The pictures look like that's POSSIBLY at the ABERDEEN test area.

Also scroll down on ref 2, there were already rumor's that the Ukrainians had already captured 1 or 2 of the Russian T-90M tanks. This is the first post I believe I've seen to actually show one they captured. And it looks right to me as a T-90M.

I wonder who else (Plural.) will be looking at this tank besides the Ukrainians!?! :rolleyes: :p :D

Poland: Before anyone says anything; a decision was made to enter the M1A2P in the last patch as a "Hail Mary Pass" but as the above for Taiwan has now shown the production line is slated for their tanks while we continue to convert tanks to the M1A2C.

We only have one tank production facility that's been in that role since WWII. The article below is from 2013 but useful for this discussion. Remember COVID and the resulting supply chain issues have slowed production (It's expected to take about 2yrs (Already started.) to generally recover to Pre-pandemic levels depending on the weapons system.
https://www.cnet.com/culture/before-the-battlefield-making-the-armys-abrams-tank/

I HIGHLY recommend that Polish CHANGE/UNIT 007/M1A2P/START/NOV 2023 VICE NOV 2022. //Another "Hail Mary" maybe.

Some I feel are still doubting me hear so from JANES I quote the following...
"The tanks are expected to be delivered to Poland by 2026 and will be deployed in eastern Poland to deter Russia."

"Polish Armaments Agency spokesperson Lieutenant Colonel Krzysztof Płatek told Janes on 5 April that these 28 MBTs would be M1A2 SEPv2s and would not comprise the first batch of the contract. The tanks will be used by US Army personnel to train Polish crews while the first generation of Polish instructors is trained in the United States."
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/poland-signs-contract-for-250-m1a2-sepv3-mbts

Originally the plan was to train them on advanced M1A1 tanks which Poland would keep.

And it looks that's back on again because you must remember a couple of months back Poland signed a contract for the K2 and K9 from S. Korea. So stand by to go Huh!!
https://www.overtdefense.com/2022/01/17/update-on-polands-abrams-procurement/
https://www.overtdefense.com/2022/08/01/poland-to-field-older-m1a1-abrams-tanks/

This M1A1 modification falls about at the... "The modification is often referred to as M1A1 AIM v.2." Minus again DU ARMOR.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

blazejos

September 19th, 2022, 05:29 AM

T-90M 'Proryv' captured intact in last counteroffensive on eastern front near Charkiv only 20 is for now in Russian army (now 19)

https://en.defence-ua.com/news/elite_russian_tamanskaya_division_abandoned_their_ t_90m_proryv_which_became_the_first_such_trophy_fo r_ukrainian_military_photo-4266.html

https://en.defence-ua.com/media/illustration/articles/f9263277d8bb129b.jpg

And here about other captured tanks T-72B3 more common last modernisation of T-72

https://en.defence-ua.com/analysis/why_russians_squirm_inside_the_t_72b3_and_abandon_ them_on_battlefield_so_often-3727.html

In this place interesting article about usage of T-64BM as improvised Self propelled gun with range 10km. Look's like now according to this article if you have drone which observe your target (even cheap civilian) and application on mobile phone which calculate your barrel position you can use any tank for such job so tanks became SP guns for indirect fire even if range is not so great but that wasn't possible earlier with so easy to acquire necessary additional equipment. Here about Ukrainian usage of T-64BM in that makeshift role

https://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and_tech/ukraines_t_64bm_used_as_an_artillery_gun_strikes_t he_occupiers_uav_video-3718.html

T-62 obsolete tanks are re also in usage and recently captured
https://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and_tech/ukraines_military_seized_a_russian_cold_war_tank_a s_a_trophy-4231.html

And here list of all captured equipment by Ukrainians in last counteroffensive

https://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and_tech/ukraines_most_valuable_trophies_in_kharkiv_oblast_ why_zoopark_1m_radar_and_orlan_uav_more_precious_t han_a_tank_company-4217.html

FASTBOAT TOUGH

September 19th, 2022, 12:04 PM

Don if you missed it see Post 1410 on previous page as the page "flipped" maybe before you saw it.

To the T-90M Russia is actually down to 16 or 17 at least 2-3 destroyed with another believed to have been captured but was damaged in the initial ops in the North drive to the capital. Timeframe I believe was March/April for the above. It's posted in maybe this and or the "Ukraine OOB NEW and OLD TOYS" thread.

However, Russia has NOT lost faith in this tank.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_september_2022_global_security_army_i ndustry/defense_industry_of_russia_continues_to_deliver_t-90m_tanks_to_russian_army.html

Also, Russia celebrates an 80th production year anniversary.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_september_2022_global_security_army_i ndustry/omsktransmash_produced_30_000_tanks_in_80_years_fr om_t-34_to_t-80bvm.html

Germany demonstrates the LEOPARD 2A7+ in the Czech Republic during NATO Days show. The Czech Republic has expressed interest in buying them within the next few years.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_september_2022_global_security_army_i ndustry/kmw_from_germany_demonstrates_in_czech_republic_it s_leopard_2a7_tank_fitted_with_trophy_aps.html

Related story...
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_september_2022_global_security_army_i ndustry/czech_republic_defense_budget_to_reach_2_percent_o f_gdp_by_2024.html

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

FASTBOAT TOUGH

September 20th, 2022, 12:18 AM

I'm posting an updated article concerning the capture yesterday of that T-90M. It appears it threw a track on the left side.

Also, the crew appeared to make no attempt to destroy it or its more sensitive components.

Of particular interest is the fact it has the latest gunner's sight which is made completely of Russian components.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ukraine-just-captured-russia-s-most-advanced-operational-tank/ar-AA120vbl?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=044356a73ac94ff0bcc6a60d915aa2cd
https://crib-blog.blogspot.com/2021/04/a-new-sight-for-modernized-t-90.html

There's more in the article including another prototype tank I don't recall hearing about the T-80UM2. Conjecture is that's the Prototype or even the BLACK EAGLE which was capable of mounting a 125mm/135mm/140mm and 152mm main gun.

The BLACK EAGLE was my first post in this thread. It would be nice to know it saw combat and met a fitting end if that's the case though I think we might never know the truth of that.

What's also important about these two tanks (T-80UM2 and T-90M.) is the technological "linkage" over time from about 2000 to 2020 or present. We can learn a lot about their developmental and R&D processes.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ukraine-just-captured-russia-s-most-advanced-operational-tank/ar-AA120vbl?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=044356a73ac94ff0bcc6a60d915aa2cd
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/t12_black_eagle.htm

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

FASTBOAT TOUGH

September 27th, 2022, 12:23 AM

I wasn't sure which thread to put this in but felt it important enough as it will affect the game and have an impact for any scenario folks where the use of USMC is concerned.

The first unit (3rd Marine Littoral Regiment) had already been testing the new concept. The 3rd MLR was activated earlier this year using the new squad in the regiment’s littoral combat team and the following will show what it looks like and finally it'll allow us to transport this NEW configuration much more easily.

This is part of what the 2030 Plan wanted to accomplish.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/the-marine-corps-new-littoral-combat-team-is-changing-the-marine-rifle-squad/ar-AA12g35J?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=16626a7781a74b49a0b7d7f2cf0d5715
https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/your-marine-corps/2022/03/02/marine-corps-launches-new-littoral-unit-that-us-adversaries-reportedly-hate/#:~:text=The%20new%20littoral%20regiment%20will%20 be%20made%20up,littoral%20anti-air%20battalion%20and%20a%20combat%20logistics%20b attalion.
https://www.mcicom.marines.mil/News/News-Article/Article/3074810/us-marines-redesignate-littoral-combat-team-realign-combat-logistics-battalion/
https://www.pacom.mil/Media/News/News-Article-View/Article/3077375/us-marines-redesignate-littoral-combat-team-realign-combat-logistics-battalion/

I always try to use the best resources available when they're available. :p :D ;)

So, some tank news concerning heavy armor for the Ukraine coming from the West. The last one caught me a little "off guard" but not too much.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_september_2022_global_security_army_i ndustry/us_to_possibly_send_tanks_to_ukrainian_army_but_mo del_remains_in_discussion.html
It was also mentioned a modernization of the M-60A3 could be considered, I hope we could do better. If it should go that way, it should be an updated combination of the 120S or better the M-60A3 SLEP.
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/120s.htm
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/raytheon-can-turn-old-american-made-m60a3-tanks-killing-16142
https://community.battlefront.com/topic/122885-raytheon-offers-m60a3-slep/
https://tankandafvnews.com/tag/m60-slep/

If I remember correctly there was mention in the above concerning the F-16 (Specifically the F-16V.) this isn't the first mention by the USAF putting the Ukraine and the F-16 in the same sentence.

I first read about this around mid-March concerning the competency of their pilots to be able to fly those jets. I would see this again ~May and July/Aug all from O6's and one O7 (?).

I believe the training has already started. We'll see.

I didn't look into this much until a few minutes ago and it looks "like a thing" now.
https://www.military.com/daily-news/2022/07/20/us-air-force-chief-of-staff-says-officials-considering-training-ukrainian-pilots.html
https://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-air-force-could-soon-213100120.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuYmluZy5jb20v&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAABIILziL8-slpfig5xx5eG7tVrQUZ31iYAaoQa8p9ks16IUa10intA44xWEP _4KBdxgp-nH2ZVyvCSE-Lg15mWm-VopdJxD7m_Pk3_Lb_oBlJHgFAuSERl2X49jJbWI1QVVPPMYjuZ hY4AmMYQXeUBIv-0Q0vovryHtgilJFNS3Z
(This one made the national news concerning the A-10.)
https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2022/08/22/u-s-approves-100-million-to-train-ukrainian-pilots-on-f-15-and-f-16-fighter-jets/
https://www.airforcemag.com/romania-is-a-model-for-training-ukraines-pilots-to-fly-f-16s/

I just remembered I had also posted the following before a couple of years back, this is another M-60 option...
https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/modern/Italy/leonardo-m60a3-upgrade-solution/

As ALWAYS, I'll be tracking these developments.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

blazejos

October 4th, 2022, 07:10 AM

Probably did you heard but shortly before war in February 2022 Ukraine was involved in project of modernisation of T-64BV to T-64BV Obr.2022

Two variant were used on trials
T-64BV Obr.2022 https://thedeaddistrict.blogspot.com/2022/02/testing-of-t-64bv-obr2022-tank-has.html

T-64BVK commander variant https://thedeaddistrict.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2021-12-01T15:28:00%2B04:00&max-results=10&start=17&by-date=false

even if whole project of modernisation was stooped after invasion is very likely that both prototypes were used on front-line.

https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEgUZcxfmeOKFyOqs0R93dIShhu9MZmQ6R4MmPtV-wKyoc7KZeLWF4o_ubVr8juVAfB9nVLwW7aDl7NpeqGjGujxyE1 e13VJ_FrMJZA0xNRmHwDyyjnLs_KtZ8p8_OwyshW9u07B2yzMi D1M-UdhLixevHeC5qUjy17KVNPKPeBSNc7-jd0aq0tgi0U2tA=w640-h426

FASTBOAT TOUGH

October 6th, 2022, 02:07 AM

A WORD BEFORE I GO ANY FURTHER. The following information is from Oryx Intelligence Consulting.

They are on the ground and using other verifiable photographic and video data to come up with their numbers. It should be pointed out here that they are more on the conservative side than from MOD and a handful of "thinktanks" that are also tracking these numbers closely.

Equipment is listed by type i.e., Tanks, APC, IFV etc. etc.

You must read the para. of ref. 2.

The link for me by way of example between ref. 1 and Ref.2 is the following...
"One Ukrainian battalion, the Carpathian Sich, seized 10 modern T-80 tanks and five 2S5 Giatsint 152-mm self-propelled howitzers after it entered the town of Izyum last month, said its deputy chief of staff, Ruslan Andriyko."

Now look at ref. 2; scroll down to the T-80BVM a total of 46 tanks that fall into in all categories of the equipment's status starting with destroyed equipment first and work through to damaged captured/captured.

I get 21 captured T-80BVM EXCLUDING I believe were 3 damaged/ captured ones and 1 damaged/abandoned the rest were again, destroyed.

By my count that makes 7 "light" platoons OR 5 "normal" platoons based on the current Ukrainian OOB.

You'll see much higher numbers for the captured T-72B3 and our T-72B3/4 (Listed as T-72B3 Obr. 2016 in the ref..)

Many sites are using their data in comparison to other known sources what's important here if you read para 1 ref. 2, is that they believe the numbers are higher but cannot prove it.

I'm more then reasonably sure this is pretty good data.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ukraine-s-new-offensive-is-fueled-by-captured-russian-weapons/ar-AA12CIDc?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=5c642624da33477489d194f3ff6b96fd
(Original article from the Wall Street Journal. See para.11.)
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

DRG

October 6th, 2022, 05:02 AM

I have not found any info that any Leo 1A5's ( or 2A4's ) have arrived in Ukraine. Have you?

Thinking none of this is going to happen

FASTBOAT TOUGH

October 6th, 2022, 12:23 PM

Based on my last post in the "GREEN & WHITE PAPERS" thread, my thinking was Germany had to take the lead on the MBT issue.

I thought I had made a comment to reverse that in my Post 1414 here but, I guess I thought it and just didn't "put it down on paper" in that post.

The German BUNDESTAG is putting pressure on the Chanceller to provide the LEO 2A4 or better.

But the read I get is Germany wants us to move first on the tank issue.

But nobody wants to be the leader at this point.

Post 1414 provided for many options from the USA to include very modernized M-60A3 conversions that would be suitable for combat in the Ukraine and provide an easy introduction to western tanks with minimal loss of technology data if captured.
The following provides for very good context on this issue.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-09-28/why-germany-and-the-us-are-stalling-on-modern-tanks-for-ukraine

So having provided better context for our faithful readers, to your question now partially answered, I would say take out the LEO 1A5 TO WHERE THE PLAYERS CAN'T USE IT but keep it in there as we'll have an answer in the coming year.

And we'll just have to take a "wait and see" position depending how the war is going but estimates are indicating the Ukrainians have more than recouped their tanks losses with the MORE modern Russian tanks they've captured.

I would also go as far to say the Ukrainians are using much a much better armored doctrine than the Russians. This is borne out of western doctrine and has been clearly demonstrated on the battlefield of late. Not quite "PATTONIST" but certainly as aggressive as he was.

For what's it's worth. ;)

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Suhiir

October 6th, 2022, 08:40 PM

I wasn't sure which thread to put this in but felt it important enough as it will affect the game and have an impact for any scenario folks where the use of USMC is concerned.

<clip>
I've been watching this "Littoral" development with interest.

Apparently it envisions reinforced company sized formations augmented with anti-air and anti-ship missiles and the ability to refuel/rearm F-35Bs being placed on the numerous tiny islands near China to inhibit their ability to hinder opposition naval efforts.

Personally I'm having visions of Wake in December 1941.

These developments are for situations totally outside the scope of WinSPMBT. Except maybe a single scenario of a USMC Littoral company defending it's rock against the Chinese.

FASTBOAT TOUGH

October 7th, 2022, 02:35 AM

I'm simply going to say-WELCOME BACK STRANGER!! :p

May the "debate games" begin again!?! :D

Just glad my "Marine Buddy" is back.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

DRG

October 7th, 2022, 03:09 AM

I'm simply going to say-WELCOME BACK STRANGER!! :p

May the "debate games" begin again!?! :D

Just glad my "Marine Buddy" is back.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Ah......yeah. This is like seeing a ghost.:eek: We thought we'd lost you. Sent PM emails no response..welcome back!

:party:

Don

Suhiir

October 8th, 2022, 09:14 PM

Sent you a PM Don.

Without getting into details I've spent the last four months dealing with medical issues and at an "Assisted Care" facility thus no access to the internet.

FASTBOAT TOUGH

October 9th, 2022, 11:54 PM

The next refs. deal with the ABRAMS and couple of "outliners"; I'll provide a couple of "quick takes" as I've got an Anniversary trip to go on in the morning for a few days. 36 years ABSOULUTLING WONDERFUL. :D

First modernized armored USA Brigade is fully equipped.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_october_2022_global_security_army_ind ustry/spartan_brigade_of_3rd_infantry_division_first_in_ us_army_to_complete_modernization.html

Quick takes:
"The modernization process that began with divesting the older vehicle platforms in the spring of 2021 as part of the Army’s new Regionally Aligned Readiness and Modernization Model, or ReARMM."

Last Company just finished final quals at Ft. Stewart Ga. (Just up the road from me ~1.5 hrs.)

Brigade fully equipped with M1A2C/M2A4 BRADLEY/Modernizations completed/AMPV w/Final Operational & Evaluation completed.

Further equipped with JLTV, M109A7 PALADAN and Joint Assault Bridge.

Next stop NTC Fort Irwin, California, in late winter next year. Proof of concept and more.

Do not base fielding dates off the above. NTC will be the next and possibly final step towards that goal-maybe.

The next two concerns the M1A2D and ABRAMSX THAT WE'RE NOT GOING TO SEE TANK. these are here to chart the future path we're taking.

Simply put "The Rumors of My Death Have Been Greatly Exaggerated" in other words heavy armor isn't going away anytime soon.

From the article...
"To summarize, the Abrams M1A2 SEPv4 includes:
- An improved Gunner’s Primary Sight (GPS) with 3rd Generation Forward Looking Infrared (3GEN FLIR), an Improved Laser Range Finder (LRF), and Color Camera
- An improved Commander’s primary sight with 3GEN FLIR, an improved LRF, laser pointer, and color camera
- Improved lethality by providing the ability for the fire control system to digitally communicate with the new Advanced Multi-Purpose (AMP) Round
- Improved firing accuracy through the installation of a Meteorological Sensor
- Improved onboard diagnostics"

Testing has started at the Aberdeen Proving ground.

From our point of view that means TI/GSR 65-70 game limited AT A MINIUM.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_october_2022_global_security_army_ind ustry/us_army_testing_new_m1a2_sepv4_abrams_at_yuma_prov ing_ground.html

GDLS has a new demonstrator the ABRAMSX. This will be of a new design with very new...Armor, 120mm w/coax, ammo MRM round, ROW 30mm w/MG, FCS etc. etc. TI/GSR 70-75+ game limited AT A MINIUM.

LOOKS GOOD!
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_october_2022_global_security_army_ind ustry/general_dynamics_unveils_its_new_us_abramsx_tank_m bt_technology_demonstrator.html

As they noted the following hasn't been confirmed. But makes sense therefore this is a real possibility once read through.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_october_2022_global_security_army_ind ustry/indian_army_t-90s_bhishma_tanks_possibly_fighting_in_ukraine_for _russian_army.html

The German/French (Maybe UK.) EMBT it's worth a look.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bk8u47JbYho

You have to admit the Europeans make tanks like they make their sports cars. :cool:

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Suhiir

October 10th, 2022, 03:05 AM

Well the last Abrams is gone from the USMC inventory (including those in depots and pre-loaded cargo ships) so starting around mid 2021 if you want tanks use the "Allies" button when purchasing formations and buy Army!

Since they first mounted TOW ATGMs on AH-1s the USMC has seen the tank primarily as an infantry support asset and ATGM armed helos/ground troops as the primary anti-armor asset. With the climbing mass of the modernized Abrams it's been a problem getting them to the beach. The LCAC has a cargo capacity of 60 tons (75 overloaded), and an LST is not a viable assault landing transport.

A plausible answer suitable to the Force Design 2030 concept would be the Mobile Protected Firepower (MPF) Light Tank Program, two competing tank contenders armed with a 105mm cannon. BAE System’s® M8 Armored Gun System and General Dynamics Land Systems’ “Griffin” weigh in at around 30-35-tons with add-on armor. Two basic 30-ton 105mm MPFs can ride on a LCAC and two MPFs with add-on armor (35-tons) might be able to ride on an SSC. With Active Protection Systems and Explosive Reactive Armor (ERA) additions installed, the MPF, in theory, should have adequate protection levels up to the U.S. Army’s M2A3 Bradley Infantry Fighting Vehicle, with an all-around armor rating against 30mm Armor-Piercing rounds, and active protection against Anti-tank missiles and rockets that the M1A2 SEPv3 with Trophy APS has. A MPF’s 105mm tank cannon might not be powerful enough to penetrate the latest frontal armor of MBTs, but it should be capable of providing direct fire support against bunkers, pillboxes, fortifications, and light to medium armored vehicles in support of advancing Marines.

We'll just have to see what happens in the future.

FASTBOAT TOUGH

October 10th, 2022, 09:46 PM

The following is to build upon Post 1416 in this thread.

I have to assume there are some folks "are concerned" possibly about the numbers of Russian armor captured and repurposed by the Ukraine.

I have never purposely have single sourced any equipment or news out here even if the "backup" is WiKi something which has occurred less than a handful of times and always in consultation with Don when it arises.
So here's some corroboration to the ORYX data which was current the day I posted it.

From July 17, 2022 Data current to June 26, 2022
https://armyrecognition.com/ukraine_-_russia_conflict_war_2022/discover_list_of_russian_captured_armored_and_comb at_vehicles_used_now_by_ukrainian_army.html

From Oct. 8, 2022
https://www.newsweek.com/how-russian-tanks-captured-ukraine-helping-fight-vladimir-putin-1750115

From same date Note UK MOD Tweet.
https://www.jpost.com/international/article-719172

From Oct. 9, 2022
https://taskandpurpose.com/news/ukraine-captures-russian-tanks-fleet-size/

This should be enough.

Don I've been looking at this for sometime now.

My concerns [B]were are they getting enough armor to put them into the fight? That has now been fully answered.

Who else is looking at the ORYX Data are are coming up with at least about the same total numbers as ORYX is showing and remember they update that data daily as the evidence allows. The above refs show some "heavy lifters" are processing the data as well by loking at ORYX data and generating their own data.

Remember I mentioned in Post 1416 that you needed to read Para 1, that's because ORYX has used photo or video shots to verify the condition of all the equipment listed on that data sheet.

For Don again I WILL HAVE A COMPLETE LIST OF RUSSIAN CAPTURED/REPURPOSED ARMOR TO YOU WITHIN 2 WEEKS. You know where that'll be posted. I have no intention at his point after a "cursory" check of the SOVIET Era equipment listed to have any of them listed because 1. I haven't seen anything that really stands out to me and; 2. The Ukraine certainly has enough Soviet Era equipment already.

Back to the Vacation the weather is absolutely fantastic. Nothing better than sleeping when the overnight temps are in the 30's!!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

FASTBOAT TOUGH

October 11th, 2022, 08:43 PM

I've been watching this for awhile now and today the contract was signed between Rheinmetall and the Czech (Republic) government. The deal as I recall was for 14 LEOPARD 2A4 tanks and 1 BUFFEL ARV.

This is part of the German Program taken from the below ref...
"The “Ringtausch” is a procedure developed by the German government in cooperation with Germany’s neighbours and NATO allies to support Ukraine in its fight against Russian aggression. Specifically, NATO member states are providing Ukraine with Soviet-era heavy equipment in exchange for readily available Western military systems."

This is "payback" for T-72's the Czech government sent the Ukraine.

The above package will include training, maintenance, parts and ammo.

Some these (Maybe all.) tanks will come from former foreign country users. They will be updated.

FOR NOW, and unless something is released as to the extent of those upgrades; my thinking is it'll at least be to the latest standard the BUNDESWEHR fielded before they were retired.

The first unit (A tank.) is expected sometime in Dec. 2022.

The order will be fully be completed by LATE 2023.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_october_2022_global_security_army_ind ustry/rheinmetall_supplying_czech_republic_with_leopard_ 2_mbts_and_buffel_arv.html

Wonderful things always happen on our Anniversary!?! :p :D

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Karagin

October 12th, 2022, 08:59 PM

I wonder when NATO or the EU will just adopt the Leopard as the standard tank for all countries in the EU...everyone but France and England, and Italy seems to have them now.

blazejos

October 28th, 2022, 06:47 AM

Czech newest modernisation T-72 Avenger is also send to Ukraine now thanks to peoples fundraising. This tank is a modernisation of T-72M1 of Czech production and have nickname Tomáš

https://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and_tech/fundraised_by_the_czech_modernized_t_72_avenger_is _going_to_ukraine_photo-4618.html

And here article from Politico about perspectives in near future of acquiring modern western tanks for Ukraine. In article is also mentioned about production and maintenance.

https://en.defence-ua.com/industries/ukraines_defense_minister_says_he_is_optimistic_ab out_new_tanks_fighter_jets_from_allies_in_rebuildi ng_ukrainian_industry-4654.html

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/10/25/oleksii-reznikov-ukraine-war-russia-weapons-tanks-00063370?fbclid=IwAR1e8v2ChPpsBBYAntWmmheFTQczKVxC ItVK1JhQNBc6JBhW1TfBMNpEToA

blazejos

October 30th, 2022, 05:05 AM

And now M-55S from Slovenia are also sent on eastern front

This tank is probably the best so far modernisation of classical T-55

https://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and_tech/slovenia_sended_m_55s_tanks_to_ukraine-4691.html

https://mil.in.ua/en/news/slovenia-sends-28-tanks-m-55s-to-ukraine/

before they send their ex yougoslavian M-80 APC
https://mil.in.ua/uk/news/vijskovi-ukrayiny-pokaz1aly-trenuvannya-z-bmp-m-80a-vid-sloveniyi/

DRG

October 30th, 2022, 03:26 PM

One opinion about that tank.........

The Actual Worst Tank? M-55S
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO8q-sWiHSE

One comment..........."The m55-s was retired before it entered service... it actually was just in the reserve its entire life ... i drove one and to be fair in the 90s it seemed like a good idea since Slovenia didnt really have any other weapons to counter another Yugo attack"

We might find out how they work out in combat

Now all Ukraine needs for them is a supply of 105 rifled ammo though there is probably LOTS tucked away in warehouses

This'll do the trickhttps://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16802&stc=1&d=1667159546

FASTBOAT TOUGH

November 1st, 2022, 12:54 AM

Since Dons post prior to this I believe the T-55S discussion has shifted somewhat.

I would refer you to the SPA and SPAA Thread Posts 240 -242 for further.

Now for something you'll be hearing about more from me later. I knew Russia was digging deep into their stockpiles of early "new" post WWII tanks. However, over the next three years Russia intends to modernize 800 T-62M & T-62MV tanks. That number doesn't include the 40 confirmed combination that has already been fighting in the Ukraine. You would do well to read the following it covers this issue but goes much deeper to grasp the situation with Russian armor.
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/russia-to-modernize-800-vintage-t-62-tanks-due-to-ukraine-losses-report

I don't remember posting the following but, the situation on the ground since this was published back in April this year bears out much of what is discussed in the following and also borne out in the above ref as well. I feel the same about this article as the above one.
https://static.rusi.org/special-report-202204-operation-z-web.pdf

The following has been UPDATED concerning the Czech Republic sending the Ukraine both the T-72M4 and BVP-2 IFV combat vehicles. It's not happening! (At least not now.) .

They were sent to Poland as part of a joint exercise.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_october_2022_global_security_army_ind ustry/czech_republic_to_supply_ukraine_with_7_t-72m4_tanks_and_4_bvp-2_ifvs.html

Well one of my tanks that I predicted several++ years ago would be in the game, will be.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_october_2022_global_security_army_ind ustry/french_army_to_receive_122_modernized_main_battle_ tanks_leclerc_xlr_by_2025.html

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

DRG

November 5th, 2022, 02:33 AM

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2022/11/04/czech-tanks-american-and-dutch-money-three-countries-teamed-up-to-send-a-whole-brigade-of-t-72s-to-ukraine/?sh=663b1cc26677

The 1980s-vintage tanks will come from the inventory of the Czech defense industry, according to the three governments. They aren’t Czech army tanks, the defense ministry in Prague stressed. The Czech army uses upgraded versions of the T-72M, which is the downgraded version of the basic Soviet-era T-72A.

The enhanced T-72Bs the Americans and Dutch are paying for are T-72As with a better fire-control system, thicker armor, a new stabilization system for the 125-millimeter main gun and an uprated, 840-horsepower engine.

In 1985, the 42-ton, three-crew T-72B was state-of-the-art. In 2022, it’s still one of the better tanks Ukraine has access to—especially with the improved optics Czech technicians are set to install.

The tanks Kyiv has received from its foreign allies, in order to make good these losses, generally have been less sophisticated than the tanks it already had. The donations have included at least 270 T-72Ms—from Poland, mostly—as well as 28 even older M-55Ss from Slovenia.

The 90 T-72Bs the Americans, Dutch and Czechs are providing should raise the overall quality of the armor the Ukrainians are acquiring from foreign sources.

Non-Russian foreign sources, that is. Russia is by far Ukraine’s biggest tank donor. The Ukrainians have captured nearly 500 T-62, T-72, T-80 and T-90 tanks that Russian crews have abandoned on the battlefield.

November 10th, 2022, 08:28 PM

Seeing that Ukraine is currently at war & getting lots of Nato equipment it's gonna be interesting to see how much love the Ukraine ob gets next patch update.....😁!

MarkSheppard

November 28th, 2022, 09:11 PM

Ukraine now has captured T-62Ms now repainted in Ukrainian digital camouflage and in service with the Ukrainian Army along the border with Belarus...

https://twitter.com/uasupport999/status/1596331210099560448

DRG

November 29th, 2022, 12:13 PM

Suhiir

November 30th, 2022, 05:22 AM

Seeing that Ukraine is currently at war & getting lots of Nato equipment it's gonna be interesting to see how much love the Ukraine ob gets next patch update.....😁!
Keep in mind there's only so many weapons slots available for each nation. And getting a dozen or so of a weapon it's hardly worthwhile to create a weapon and unit.

Use the "Captured" button when creating a battle and get anything from any OOB with the nation being set to your own.

blazejos

December 6th, 2022, 06:26 PM

Just d'like to mention about other captured T-90
https://mil.in.ua/en/news/the-ukrainian-military-captured-the-russian-t-90m-proryv-tank/

https://mil.in.ua/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/Screenshot_2022-11-20-13-16-30-62_4b14b257287ac0a6d1fd5fbb2487716f-e1670138522730-1.jpg

T-72 rebuild\refurbished and modernised by Czech company for Ukraine
https://en.defence-ua.com/industries/how_excalibur_army_modernizes_the_t_72_for_ukraine _almost_a_hundred_such_vehicles_are_expected_to_be _done_video-5046.html

https://mil.in.ua/en/news/excalibur-army-modernizes-90-tanks-for-ukraine/

FASTBOAT TOUGH

December 13th, 2022, 01:42 AM

There'll be more on this later, however, when I entered what is in the game as the mistaken T-72B3 in 2014 from my printout of my submission which was my fault and missed it when I posted my word doc to the FASTBOAT Patch Thread.

Some of you might remember me referring to our "Hybrid Tank" in several posts as the T-72B3/4.

I refer to UNIT 697 T-72B3. The name needs to change for that unit to T-72B3M by refs (Also known in official circles as T-72 Object 2016 or from some as the T-73B4.) that's on me.
https://www.military-today.com/tanks/t72b4.htm
https://armyrecognition.com/russia_russian_army_tank_heavy_armoured_vehicles_u/t-72b3m_t-72b4_main_battle_tank_technical_data_sheet_specifi cations_pictures_video_12003163.html

However, we CANNOT ignore the T-72B3 as that tank is currently the most numerous operated MBT in Russian service.
https://www.military-today.com/tanks/t72b3.htm
https://www.armyrecognition.com/russia_russian_army_tank_heavy_armoured_vehicles_u/t-72b3_mbt_main_battle_tank_russia_data_pictures_vid eo.html

So, in working on my Russian captured tank project as posted in Posts 1416 & 1425 in this thread, I came across TWO modern tanks I couldn't verify as being operational in the Russian Army.

I have built a T-72B3 from one of those tanks and Don should get a free slot back.

That was a statement that conveniently leads me to the following video of a Ukrainian T-64BV taking out a Russian T-72B3 at about 250m-300m range by a drone with a "double tap".

That's my assessment after iso stop and blow-up of the video. Could be wrong but feeling fairly confident. The first thing I saw was the difference in the side skirts between the T-72B3 and T-72B3M.
https://twitter.com/UAWeapons/status/1602030183694860288
Look lower left to about 2/3 center/slightly right.
EDIT: It's 0200 do you know where your kids are at? :p
Just came across this...
https://www.armyrecognition.com/ukraine_-_russia_conflict_war_2022/analysis_discover_fight_between_ukraine_t-64bv_tank_vs._russia_t-72b3_tank.html

I hope we're holding off on those Czech tanks that the U.S. and Netherlands are paying for at a cost of ~350-400 million dollars. That should buy something more advanced than the T-72 Viper I believe was discussed based on how many are to be modernized.

Another way of putting it we have no Xxxxxxx idea at this time of what's being done to this tank in the "Big Picture" sense.

Suhiir just got your PM-and Thanks!! We're still dealing with somethings but are DETERMINED to have a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

And that goes for you and everyone else out here however you observe the Holiday Season!!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

FASTBOAT TOUGH

December 15th, 2022, 03:24 AM

Mystery of the Czech T-72B (That's the right tank.) upgrade as paid for by the U.S. and Netherlands might be getting closer to being solved with the following refs.

Well, those same refs are "leading" to that conclusion but my problem is they're not directly saying so.

Is it possible these are them? I would at this time say they might be the leading candidate based on the numbers and the and reserves they (Morocco) still in storage (T-72B). Also, they're sending 5 of these tanks to the Ukraine.

U.S/Netherlands pay Morocco or EXCALIBUR but neither say that.

So again, this might be the leading candidate I feel we'll know more by next week or sooner. In the meantime...
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_december_2022_global_security_army_in dustry/czech_company_excalibur_army_upgrades_t-72b_tanks_of_morocco_armed_forces.html
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_december_2022_global_security_army_in dustry/morocco_agrees_to_donate_its_czech_modernized_t-72_tanks_to_ukraine.html
(Yes, it does say Morrocco is DONATING these tanks.) ;)

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

DRG

December 15th, 2022, 10:18 AM

Both the first link and the link to the T-72B in that first link claim..........

......22 125mm ammunition stored in the carousel automatic loader and 23 stowed in the turret and hull.

That adds up to 45 and for the most part, the 6 missiles added add to 39 conventional rounds gives the correct count (6 missiles + 39 = 45 )

The original T-72 by various sources show it carrying 22 in the autoloader and 17 in the Hull which =39 and that is...... for the most part, what we have in the game....BUT

A quick random check does show we have maintained that count in most things but there are a few that are wrong and Ukraine unit 77 and 621 are examples ( now corrected ) but that means checking all T-72 ammo loads is now on my to-do list....wonderful

Karagin

December 17th, 2022, 02:17 AM

Could things have been modified by the crews and reported after the fact which is why the numbers are different?

FASTBOAT TOUGH

December 19th, 2022, 04:55 PM

It's now official the M-55S tanks are now operational.

Don, correct me if I'm wrong but, I believe we discussed numbers for the build on this tank already-I think.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_december_2022_global_security_army_in dustry/m-55s_tanks_donated_by_slovenia_are_now_in_service_w ith_the_ukrainian_army.html

EDIT: FOUND IT! IN THE SPA and SPAA Development Thread Posts 240 - 242. You built the ICON, so I'll assume you pretty much went with my numbers and the tanks ready. I can't believe that was in OCT., WHERE'S THE TIME GOING!?!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

blazejos

December 22nd, 2022, 02:28 PM

Just info that Poland will buy also older Abrams M1A1 SA ex from US Marine Corps

https://www.pap.pl/en/news/news%2C1500848%2Cdepartment-issues-consent-sale-abrams-tanks-poland.html

https://www.overtdefense.com/2022/08/01/poland-to-field-older-m1a1-abrams-tanks/

https://en.defence-ua.com/industries/money_matter_no_more_when_it_comes_to_weapons_poli sh_general_staff_describes_situation_on_arms_marke t-5039.html

I also know that the issue of PT-91 Twardy is not new since June but I found nice photo

https://en.defence-ua.com/industries/what_is_special_about_polish_pt_91_twardy_tanks_wh ich_ukraine_is_about_to_receive-3628.html

https://en.defence-ua.com/media/contentimages/a2262d9088f0e070.jpg

DRG

December 22nd, 2022, 03:26 PM

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/us-oks-potential-sale-m1a1-abrams-tanks-equipment-poland-estimated-375-billion-2022-12-06/

Reuters says "U.S. approves potential sale $3.75 billion of M1A1 Abrams tanks to Poland"

MarkSheppard

December 22nd, 2022, 07:06 PM

From Facebook Tanks being Tanks:

First Leopard 2A4CZ for Czech Army

Yesterday on Wednesday 21st of December Czech Army recieved first Leopard 2A4 tank.

This type will replace old T-72M/M1 tanks. Later Leopard 2A7 will replace T-72M4CZ.

Czech Leopard 2A4CZ is adjusted Panzer 87 from Switzerland. This adjustments were only in secondary armament, communications, night and thermal sights and several external equipments.

Leopard 2A4CZ will be mostly for training. T-72M4CZ will be still in active service

Karagin

December 22nd, 2022, 10:37 PM

Bit odd that Poland is going to have this mix-and-match tank force. Not all the parts work on the other tanks, so is this part of a grand plan, or is it more of something else?

DRG

December 23rd, 2022, 05:32 AM

Bit odd that Poland is going to have this mix-and-match tank force. Not all the parts work on the other tanks, so is this part of a grand plan, or is it more of something else?

It almost seems like they are trying to ensure they have multiple supply options but it's a nightmare for parts supply. Right now it's a mix of Russian, German, American and Korean.

DRG

December 23rd, 2022, 05:35 AM

FASTBOAT TOUGH

December 25th, 2022, 03:51 AM

This is my "Ba-Humbug" concerning the Czech Republic. I would respectfully disagree about the status of the LEOPARD 2A4.

Those tanks were given to them as they donated 40 T-72M1 tanks to the Ukraine. The U.S. and Netherlands effectively bought (90 UNITS) the rest of both the leftover active and stored T-72M1 for as yet an unknown modernization program.

For all intents and purposes, the T-72M1 is no longer a viable unit of the Czech Republic.

The LEOPARD 2A4 is to fill the armor gap, because the Czech Republic hasn't completed the modernization of all the T-72 tanks to be upgraded to the T-72M4CZ/30 UNITS currently and some say this is all they'll have period.

Those LEOPARD 2A4 tanks will eventually be modernized by the Czech Republic (Part of the current negotiations.) to the LEOPARD 2A7/or 2A7+ (Urban Pkg. think TUSK here.).

The LEOPARD 2A7/7+ tanks WILL NOT get there anytime soon.
Part of the reason is...

1. Germany and the Czech Republic are still negotiating the deal for 50 of those tanks as of this writing.

2. Germany just in the last couple of weeks passed one of its biggest defense budgets in years. To add more weapons systems tanks etc. (Only has ~250-280 operational tanks of all types to include their LEOPARD 2A5 tanks (20-25).

That pushes out those Czech Republic tanks at least 1.5 - 2 years minimum.

I would recommend either of the following German LEOPARD 2A4 units to be the STANDARD for countries getting that tank, UNIT 268 or UNIT 269, with START JAN 2023.
https://www.czdefence.com/article/there-is-a-need-of-new-tanks-or-when-will-czechia-join-leopard-2-tanks-users
https://www.overtdefense.com/2022/12/23/czechia-and-slovakia-receive-new-leopard-tanks/
http://tank-masters.de/?page_id=264
http://tank-masters.de/?page_id=280
Which one? We won't know until the contracts are signed as there are some slight differences between the above two.

I'm off to bed long day yesterday playing in the strong winds and "balmy" very cold temps (Though I enjoyed watching some of my coworkers wishing they were elsewhere. :D) and Santa has
been flying around waiting for me to get this done-or else it'll be a "BAG OF COAL" for sure.

So have a good whatever, wherever and Merry Christmas however you celebrate it!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

FASTBOAT TOUGH

December 26th, 2022, 02:52 AM

I found the following from FORBES an interesting read concerning the start of the war in Ukraine.

Maybe you will also find it the same...:dk:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/how-ukraine-s-1st-tank-brigade-fought-a-russian-force-ten-times-its-size-and-won/ar-AA15ERXx?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=96a1cdb38329461fa9fd914f146d7d15

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

DRG

December 26th, 2022, 12:31 PM

Hmmm.... that looks like a scenario just waiting to be created.

FASTBOAT TOUGH

December 26th, 2022, 03:40 PM

This next in NO WAY means the ARMANTA is operational. However, the Russian Correspondent that has made the claim he's seen "some" of them near the front in the Donbas region.

Some can't be many as "across the board" even from Russian sources indicate that Russia has ONLY 20 units still undergoing testing and NOT even at IOC AT THIS POINT IN TIME.

If true, I agree with this article that this can be seen as a further operational test of its capabilities much as has been reported that around 4 units did last year in Syria.

I'm just a little skeptical ONLY because I really don't think Russia would risk the capture of this tank after as we know (Or should know.) at least 2 pristine operational at time of capture T-90M tanks are the hands of the Ukraine and by default NATO (If you don't believe the NATO part, I would suggest you stop drinking the "Kool-Aid" ;).

It should be remembered the T-90M shares many "SUBSYSTEMS" of the T-14.

The video supplied indicates nothing except that could be anywhere in Eastern Europe.

I don't openly dismiss this off hand. It's NOT operational, it's NOT unusual for a country to OPTEST new military equipment when there's a "convenient" war somewhere, Israel does this ALL THE TIME and this might be news, Germany is about to do the same in sending the Ukraine 18 units of the BOXER 155mm/L52 SPA. The BUNDESWEHR doesn't even have them.

Let's just ALL wait and see what happens here BEFORE, we :o OURSELVES.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_december_2022_global_security_army_in dustry/russian_latest_generation_tank_t-14_armata_would_be_deployed_in_ukraine_donbas_regi on.html

The following is verified that they're moving West...
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_december_2022_global_security_army_in dustry/russia_transfers_dozens_of_t-90m_and_t-72b3_tanks_via_belarus_to_reinforce_northern_front .html
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_december_2022_global_security_army_in dustry/more_new_russian_tanks_t-90m_and_t-72b3_model_2022_are_on_the_way_to_ukraine.html

Regards'
Pat
:capt:

DRG

December 26th, 2022, 04:23 PM

Yeah..... a tank driving in the fog on a muddy road means nothing. Russia has thousands of miles of that and IF some actually did make it to the front they would be at the top of the "must do" target list.

OTOH, The T-90 Proryv had a lot of hype and expectations put on them that have not exactly panned out.

Time will tell.

FASTBOAT TOUGH

January 4th, 2023, 03:17 PM

The following is somewhat a "MIXED BAG" of news. First the good news...
Poland has received the first of S. Korean K2 tanks. However, the unknown is it the same tank that S. Korea operates armor wise is still unknown.

To my mind based on what we've seen from other foreign sales (With exception of some older models i.e., the LEOPARD 2A4.) I'm still leaning towards the armor values for the K2PL to fall on average between the K1 and K2 which is exactly what we did in essence with the M1A2PL (And Taiwan's.) tanks. S. Korea had more than enough time to modify the armor and remove any "proprietary" armor enhancements and replace them with other very effective armor products.

This the normal "business practice" for more advanced weapons systems worldwide for a foreign buyer in the RL but also in ours as demonstrated MANY times over the recent years in here in particular.

For some time now and due to the silence on this issue over the last 3 months or so, I was starting to wonder whether or not the deal to but the M1A2PL was possibly cancelled or postponed due to the increased M1A1 buy and the very large K2 and K9 buy as well.

Well, the ref below indicates the buy is still on! This will make Poland the largest operator of modern tanks in Europe.

The possible downside for us as reported by the AP is...
"The deal follows last year's $4.7 billion agreement for the acquisition of 250 upgraded M1A2 Abrams tanks that will be delivered in 2025-26."

We'll have to see how many, how fast they arrive, and crews get trained. And finally, when Poland actually fields them.

We'll have to watch this very closely even if it goes into 2026 in the last Patch.

The good news is Don, and I got this tank built last year and put into the last Patch.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/poland-signs-deal-to-buy-2nd-batch-of-u-s-abrams-tanks/ar-AA15XDlW?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=0578255399d342579b5b142b6e018c78

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

blazejos

January 6th, 2023, 08:36 PM

And now this happens
https://twitter.com/shashj/status/1611395418004267008?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

The plans were to give all T-72 what already happens then PT-91 which goes to Ukraine now probably Leopards first 2A4 then 2A5 and as last 2PL version. After that Poland will have only Abrams 1A2 + 1A1 as heavy tanks and K2 and than only K2PL as medium tanks. So finally there will be no logistical nightmare with different parts for each tank.

DRG

January 6th, 2023, 10:16 PM

For now lets just wait and see........

FASTBOAT TOUGH

January 7th, 2023, 03:39 AM

Poland or any other country using foreign bought or donated tanks or other WILL NOT be able to just send that equipment to another country of their choosing without the permission from the country that sent that in the first place.

Poland can do what they want with their PT-91 tanks as they wish.

As it concerns "their" LEOPARD 2A4/5 and PL, that won't happen without prior approval of the Government of Germany

So as not to have someone think I'm picking on Poland here, the goes for any foreign operator of the ABRAMS as well "and on and on again" etc.

We wait now for Germany, however as you point out that won't happen for at least 2-3 years when Poland has decided they have enough K2PL, M1A1 and M1A2PL ABRAMS tanks in country with fully trained crews and Maintenace support staff and facilities in place.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

DRG

January 7th, 2023, 04:05 AM

RE: AMX-10RC

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2023/01/04/ukraines-about-to-get-french-scout-tanks-and-a-new-way-of-exploiting-gaps-in-russian-lines/?sh=3ce4d34f38bd

The interesting aspect of adding the AMX is it complements the capability of the BTR's and adds significant additional firepower. Speed, armour, amphib ability is similar for both vehicles

FASTBOAT TOUGH

January 9th, 2023, 12:51 AM

The current updated model is also being thrown out there is the AMX-10RCR which should be in the French OOB.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_january_2023_global_security_army_ind ustry/france_agrees_to_supply_ukraine_with_amx-10rc_light_tank_able_to_fight_russian_tanks.html
https://www.armyrecognition.com/french_army_france_wheeled_armoured_vehicle_uk/amx-10rcr_upgraded_reconnaissance_anti-tank_6x6_armored_vehicle_data.html

Uses the 105mm F2 DU munition developed in the mid 90's and supposedly there is a more very recent HEAT round it now has either exclusively or in combination to the F2 round.

Is NOT amphibious so they could mount the add on steel armor you see in the pictures for protection against RPG's and similar HEAT weapons.

Has an extended turret bustle which is plain to see for "storage" of some kind.

"Infra-Red Counter Measure System (LIRE), mounted on the forward part of the left side of the turret that has been designed to decoy and confuses anti-tank guided missiles (ATGW) with semi-automatic command-to-line-of-sight guidance (SACLOS) system."

"A bank of four Gallix grenade launchers is mounted to each side of the main armament, in front of the turret. This can launch a wide range of series of grenades such as smoke, anti-personnel, and decoy." (I know I know but this is a newer ref. than when Gallix "bounced back into our universe a few years back again.)

There's more in the "Tech Data" section certainly is better than the base AMX-10RC.

Other tanks or if you will "I like it when I'm right once in a while."...
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_january_2023_global_security_army_ind ustry/poland_considers_the_option_to_deliver_leopard_2_t anks_to_ukraine.html
(Just read the last para.)
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_january_2023_global_security_army_ind ustry/finland_is_ready_to_supply_ukraine_with_leopard_2_ mbts_main_battle_tanks.html
(Para 5 covers BOTH of these issues.)

We're going to see much more of this "stuff" for a long while.

For now, I'm just happy I beat these guys by 2 or 3 days.

Maybe I should apply for a job as an Anal-list :D :p :doh:

To the other thing, three of the last five tanks that Russia "donated" (Articles are even using that term but I believe they're being :rolleyes: in doing so!?!) I came across a "linkage issue" as all military equipment has a "hierarchy"

I've been chasing a "ghost tank" as it appears to be in the OOB but shown as a T-72B1M.
That tank was the T-72B2 you might remember as the T-72 Rogatka which was how it was named I believe at the time when we rightly DELETED it.

Sites show it "now" as the T-72B2 Rogatka. One of my sites says Russia has 300 of them. But EVERYONE else is saying this tank was just too expensive to build.

So, the Russians decided to come up with a new tank the T-72B3.
This tank incorporated many subsystems of the T-72B2 but on systems such as the FCS especially it wasn't as good (On B3).

Unless you still have that data for the T-72 ROGATKA, my intention is now to rename the two T-72B1M (Closest match from a couple of sites was the T-72B1MS "White Eagle" export tank.) to the T-72B3.

Currently on my screen I have the OPLOT-M, T-90, T-90A, T-723(M), T-72BM, T-72B1M, T-80BV and T-80BVM up on it as I've had for 3 days now.

The numbers and hierarchy with a couple of minor tweaks just looks right to me now and the "mystery" is to my mind solved.

But this is where I was before myself and my partners, ME and I were before we together realized something wasn't making sense.

RUSSIA/CHANGE/T-72BM/UNIT 037/RENAME/T-72B3/START/JUN 2013 VICE JAN 1997/VISION 40 VICE 30/MG 125mm 2A46M-5 VICE 125mm GUN 91(?)//A very easy comparison against the current Russian T-73B3 UNIT 697 should “clear up” any doubts along with the below ref. of this change.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/russia_russian_army_tank_heavy_armoured_vehicles_u/t-72b3_mbt_main_battle_tank_russia_technical_data_fa ct_sheet.html
UKRAINE/ADD/T-72B3 (83) +/COPY/RUSSIAN REVISED UNIT 037/PVR MAR07-DEC01 2022/START AUG 2022/NEAR PEER/UKRAINIAN UNIT 042 & 043. //

How wrong "we" were. ;)

Half measures are unacceptable to me.

If you need answers, look to what happened at NAS Corpus Christi, Tx about 2-3 years ago.
https://news.usni.org/2020/05/21/shooting-at-nas-corpus-christi-security-force-member-injured-shooter-neutralized

But don't worry I have "fun" at work though another guard on the shift has compared me to a "CYLON CENTURIAN" from the original Battlestar Galactica with the "roving" red eyes constantly scanning. I think that's a compliment!?! Too bad we don't have one of those EM-ME-G-MOES out here. :D

Since I didn't get to bed until 0400 this morning after work and our grandson was with us for a couple days before starting his sophomore year at SCAD I'll get back to it tomorrow now that the path forward is clear.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

DRG

January 9th, 2023, 09:04 AM

Right now I have the Amphibious AMX-10RC entered. IF the French send the RCR I will change it but the RC is a better fit to complement and add fire support to BTR formations.

blazejos

January 12th, 2023, 07:02 PM

First Brits wants to sends Challenger 2 to Ukraine about 10 tanks but are some concerns hat will be great to send 50 to made any difference on eastern front.
https://en.defence-ua.com/news/ukraine_can_get_uk_tanks_to_fight_russian_forces_m edia-5388.html

Here again about Leopard 2 from Poland for Ukraine is planed to send around 10 and Finland plans to add also some similar number
https://en.defence-ua.com/news/as_part_of_coalition_poland_will_give_ukraine_leop ard_tanks-5409.html
https://www.politico.eu/article/france-and-poland-push-germany-to-send-leopard-tanks-to-ukraine/
https://www.politico.eu/article/finland-leopard-2-tanks-ukraine-sauli-niinisto-nato-defense/

Germans also gave green light for Leopards from Poland
https://www.politico.eu/article/poland-leopard-tank-ukraine-war-germany-vice-chancellor-robert-habeck/

Here is story which versions of Leopard 2 Ukrainians expected and from which country's?
https://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and_tech/leopard_2_for_ukraine_which_versions_of_the_tank_e xist_how_to_distinguish_between_them_and_why_it_is _an_important_factor-5420.html

DRG

January 12th, 2023, 07:45 PM

When ( IF ) they cross the boarder. I'll put them into the OOB but not before. I've already pulled out a number of things that were added from info that turned into nothing

DRG

January 14th, 2023, 11:24 AM

sigh...........:doh:

UK to send Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine, Rishi Sunak confirms

Published 33 minutes ago

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-64274755

FASTBOAT TOUGH

January 14th, 2023, 01:26 PM

Well, the Challenger 2 has been building up for a while over the last couple of weeks. But this is why I'm here,
this from 1945 and here's the headline...
The Leopard 2 Tank Is Headed to Ukraine to Fight Russia

Now from the article...

Para 3: "But Germany, the manufacturer of the Leopard 2, continues to be hesitant to send the main battle tank to Ukraine. "

Paras 12/13: "But Germany is still reluctant to give the green light and supply Kyiv with the tank."

"As the manufacturer of the tank, Germany would have to grant a re-export permission to Poland, potentially Finland, and indeed any other perspective supplier of Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine. "

Ref.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/the-leopard-2-tank-is-headed-to-ukraine-to-fight-russia/ar-AA16lu0F?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=14b905b1a71d47189455ebd648ebc64a

The above is indicative of several articles on this and other related equipment.

This is the TRAP we've found ourselves in many times over the years. Many people have said over the years including myself, it's not going in until it's there and for my part the crews and maintainers are on the ground and trained. We ALL REALLY need to think about "holding the line here" AND JUST BE PATIENT.

I do not doubt that the Ukraine will get these tanks.

All I'm saying is THERE IS NO RUSH TO GET THESE IN THE GAME TO FIT THE "DEADLINE" FOR THE NEXT PATCH.

That can be easily handled. They won't get them before the next Patch has to be completed in the next 6-8 weeks or less to be ready for release.

We will hopefully be playing this game long after it expires so, from a player's standpoint does it REALLY matter WHEN THEY GET IN AS LONG AS THEY DO?

This will give Andy and Don after some time off I HOPE several months to focus on the weapon slot issue and others that the Ukrainian War has caused.

Sometimes I feel "I'm the lone voice in the woods" but, only to make the analogy vice comparison, they said the same thing about Churchill in the years before, well actually both World Wars.

I have to get ready for work. TGIF!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

DRG

January 14th, 2023, 01:32 PM

I have to get ready for work. TGIF!

YEAH BUT......... it's Saturday. You may be in for a surprise when you show up......

FASTBOAT TOUGH

January 15th, 2023, 02:30 AM

I wish it were so but, as you already know military bases never shutdown so no surprise for me yesterday.

I'm a Tue. - Sat. kind've guy by choice as I'm the 6th (I was 184 when I first went full-time back in OMG Jan 2005 after 10 months as a part timer.) senior member of the guard force I have the pick of my shift and days off, 4 weeks paid vacation (After 6 yrs.), health, vision and dental on top of my military retired benefits and pension and I can assure you we don't get "mall cop" pay either. :p

Best of all I get to shoot weapons, fight the "Redman" and still run the obstacle course and rescue that "darn" idiot Mr. Sandman who every year manages to find himself strapped into a "burning" vehicle at the end of the course. Thank God he lost some weight as he used to come in at 180 lbs. now he's down to 150lbs. :D

Better still I complete the course in a time 2 levels below mine (50 and until you're in the ground :shock:) in other words guys that are up to 40 years younger than me. :cool:

Along with our "sister" base on the West coast, we're the only armed contract civilian guard component in the "DON" and I believe in the DOD.

Hopefully I'll just have ONLY 4 more Summers left plus 8 months with the house being already paid off along with the new car coming this year if I'm lucky a nice Pre-owned Certified Audi A6 or similar. I just want for us to have that "nice ride" to drive before well riding will be the only thing we do!?! :rolleyes:

It sure sounds good to me!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

FASTBOAT TOUGH

January 15th, 2023, 03:28 PM

Now to serious business...
Do we care about at this time about a German M-48 based mine clearing etc. piece of equipment?

It's for the Ukraine and is already confirmed as in country as operational. I haven't verified it's in the German OOB however I seem to think I came across it as a player and for "work" purposes.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_january_2023_global_security_army_ind ustry/germany_delivers_to_ukraine_4_minenraumpanzer_mirp z_keiler_mine_clearing_armored_vehicles.html

I believe it can wait but that's your call.

To the AMX-10RC EVERYTIME someone posts an article on this for the Ukraine they are posting a picture of the AMX-10RCR WHY?

I'm really seeing too much evidence to support the latter vice the former.

Around 460 AMX-10RC vehicles were built and put into service between 1979-1980. In 2000 the contracts were signed to upgrade the AMX-10RC to the AMX-10 RCR to meet the real threats from Russia but mostly to address the RPG/ATGW threats from their own combat experiences. Around 260 units were built based on attrition and foreign sales in the 20 years the AMX-10RC already served up to 2000.

Also, that newer round for the AMX-RCR has an effective range 1200m against "heavy" tanks and 2200m against NATO standard Triple Heavy Targets.

Reference 1. They are at a minimum of 2 months out before delivery. But also note like with the other articles posted that's a AMX-10RCR in the picture AGAIN.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_january_2023_global_security_army_ind ustry/france_announces_delivery_to_ukraine_of_amx-10rc_anti-tank_armored_vehicles_within_2_months.html

Reference 2. This is indictive from others concerning the transition from "RC" to "RCR". It also has a picture of a PROPER AMX-10RC. And as taken from the below,

"The first AMX-10 RCs entered service in 1979, and the vehicle has cemented the French Army’s love for wheeled tank destroyers. In 2000, the RCs were upgraded to the Renové (Mine-that's the "R" in the RCR.) standard and are expected to remain in service until 2020-2025, at which point they should be replaced by the EBRC Jaguar (Mine-France just got the first 16 by Dec 2022. Not operational yet.) ."
https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar/france/amx-10-rc-rcr.php

The RCR is not in the French OOB.

I see a fix for it plus I also see 1- or 2-unit deletions.

Why I'm not surprised but given the dates, this issue is another of many that got in the game I've already uncovered of the years (AMBRAMS comes to mind right now.) BEFORE Andy and Don continued the game.

Finally I don't mean this in a "vindictive" manner, however, who cares that the Ukraine captured ONE T-90S?

ORNX (Good to see they're keeping out.) is reporting 2 destroyed and 1 captured. The value here is "They're robbing Peter (Foreign Customer.) to pay Paul (The Battlefield.)" result loss of money for Russia a good thing.

Now to the player 1. I hope you've been paying attention to the posts concerning the weapons slot and other issues affecting the game "architecture" at this time.

2. Based on that and having to ONLY choose between the Russian T-90A or the lesser capable T-90S WHICH WOULD YOU CHOOSE?

On my Russian capture list based on the data we have and the minimum standard I spelled out in the Patch Thread (2+1) I can safely say the Ukraine can and has fielded the T-90A.

That's the one I'd pick (OK have picked.) between the two.

A song from around '83-'84 comes to mind right now from Franky goes to Hollywood "RELAX" we all need to do that right now afterall "War is Hell." at least currently in our world.

And please before someone thinks it or says it, I make no light of the real thing anywhere in the World. My Dad served in three wars up until he retired in Dec 1969 after 28 years, and his one wish for my brother and I were "I hope you boys will never have to see the horrors I did in war when you grow up. "

So, on that "Cheery" note "RELAX" that song though is making me have this urge to take a shower for some reason!?! :eek: :D ;) :cool: :rolleyes: alright it feed that urge also.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

DRG

January 15th, 2023, 04:44 PM

Pat.

DO NOT bother obsessing over RC vs RCR. When they show up we'll know for sure. We could play these maybe this maybe that games forever.. I know because a quarter century of doing this sometimes feels like forever.

AND the RCR IS in the French OOB it's just named "wrong" ( AMX-10RC sbd U12, 13 and 41 ) and has been changed (and they have new photos now). Any without amphib speed has the added armour but IMHO the old one with amphib ability suits Ukraine better because they can work with BTR's but we really don't need to get too bent out of shape over it... I'm not. French OOB unit 41 is now named RCR and the Ukrainians have the RC with the G2 gun/ammo until I know for sure what it is......speculation I don't have time or energy for

If an AMX has text that says "This vehicle is fitted with add-on armor and without amphibious capability.*" it is the RCR upgrade

FASTBOAT TOUGH

January 15th, 2023, 05:22 PM

I actually had it in my notes to seek to revise French UNIT 012 to the RCR as that is the one, I put the "? " mark against.

That you increased the armor value as well is the bonus. THANK YOU!

All this "other stuff" going on has just gotten me all "amped up".

I'm with you we're either going to see the AMX-10RC sbd or AMX-10RCR whenever those planes land in the Ukraine.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

FASTBOAT TOUGH

January 15th, 2023, 09:21 PM

Scroll Down on this story from BLOOMBURG concerning German LEOPARD 1 (88) and 2 (22) that Rheinmetall has available. Ones from BUNDESWEHR I feel are unlikely as the newer tanks are undergoing conversion to the newest LEOPARD 7 version. Hell, I'll just post it as I just realized this is a daily update story.

"Rheinmetall CEO Says Leopard Repairs Take a Year (9:15 a.m.)
The maker of Leopard tanks says it would take about a year to get the vehicles it has in inventory ready for the battlefield, meaning deliveries to Ukraine couldn’t start before 2024, Rheinmetall CEO Armin Papperger said told the Bild newspaper.

The German defense company has 22 Leopard 2 tanks and 88 Leopard 1 vehicles, “but we can’t repair these tanks without an order, because the costs are several hundred million euros and Rheinmetall can’t finance that in advance,” he said.

The comments are likely to put more pressure on the German government to approve deliveries of vehicles in active service. Countries including Poland and Finland have said they’re ready to send their Leopards to Kyiv."
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ukraine-latest-zelenskiy-says-donbas-is-key-to-stopping-russia/ar-AA16mJNr?ocid=mailsignout&pc=U591&cvid=db57aaea130d4d199f019addc4360918

And the world continues "to spin round and round again" and while it does, WE continue to wait and see as it does.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

FASTBOAT TOUGH

January 16th, 2023, 01:23 AM

Don,
You'll need these (Or some other.) for T-80BVM UNITS 046 AND 048. The current tank pictures are of the T-80BV.

Distinctions are in... "The improved protection suite is what gives the T-80BVM its new look. Older Kontakt-1 ERA of the T-80BV has been replaced by new Relikt ERA. This covers large portions of the skirts, the hull front and the frontal arc of the turret. Relikt is not only effective against HEAT warheads, but also increased protection against kinetic projectiles. The main armor of the T-80BV remains unaltered. The rear of the tank has been fitted with cage armor, providing a degree of protection against HEAT warheads. There are reports that Arena-M active protection system is to be fitted in the near future." ORNX clearly shows they.

Also, not noted is that the T-80BVM are not equipped with rear mounted fuel tanks as currently shown in the OOB.

These are Ukrainian captured units in use (They have ~35 at this time.). The Ukrainian 93rd Mechanized Battalion is the only one I've found using them so far.
16814 16815

Refs for further validation...
https://weaponsystems.net/system/835-T-80BVM
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_april_2021_global_security_army_indus try/russian_64th_motorized_rifle_brigade_receives_mode rnized_t-80bvm_tanks.html
https://tass.com/defense/1098733

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

FASTBOAT TOUGH

January 16th, 2023, 12:59 PM

Stupidity comes in MANY forms. I provide one real life example while I was onboard at that time PCU NEBRASKA SSBN-739 @ Electric Boat (EB) Groton, CT. IN '92/'93.

A senior Torpedo Man (TM) First Class (E6) while searching for wire suitable for hooking up the speakers to his home entertainment and music system in the shipyard came across the "find of his life" when he came across more than he needed, and we all know "more is better".

After work he promptly went home with his "treasure" hooked everything up, inspected his work and found all was in order. When he turned it on, he blew up all his equipment, was thrown across the room and suffered from burns on his hands and body and also managed to start a fire in his house. Fortunately, his Wife and kids were in another room at the time and suffered no injuries.

He would make the USN wide QTRLY. Safety Bulletin (A TM1/SS at...) and as you can imagine launch an investigation leading to fines against the contractor for improper disposal of an explosive equip. and more.

The bottom line here is don't use DETONATION CORDS FOR YOUR HOME ELECTRONICS!!!! You know what's coming...:doh: :rolleyes: :D :eek:

So, in the spirit of the above, and to "lighten up" the mood around here let's start with the following video I sometimes wish I could use it at work however it might seem inappropriate. One of my heroes from back in the day...
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?&q=video+of+cartman+from+south+park+%22you+will+res pect+my+authority%22&view=detail&mid=3098EA8C85E7B00A5F263098EA8C85E7B00A5F26&FORM=VDRVRV&ajaxhist=0

So, in a bid to do the same as all above a Russian Sargent does this...
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russian-sergeant-blows-up-own-troops-in-bid-to-establish-authority-report/ar-AA16pbNs?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=8826c7902dcc49009ab693c2264f76d9

Ammo we got that to...
https://www.newsweek.com/russian-soldiers-blow-themselves-careless-handling-ammunition-1773898

Tank repairs we also have that...
https://www.newsweek.com/russia-accidentally-blows-tank-belgorod-1773639

There were also several reports last week of a Russian artillery crew blowing themselves and their "tube" up while conducting an attack.

All tragic and it's what happens on a battlefield when in constant contact with your adversary.

Cartman and I hope you won't handle any explosive devices anytime soon and because Cartman is afterall Cartman... :angel
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?&q=video+of+cartman+from+south+park+%22you+will+res pect+my+authority%22&view=detail&mid=3098EA8C85E7B00A5F263098EA8C85E7B00A5F26&FORM=VDRVRV&ajaxhist=0

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

DRG

January 16th, 2023, 04:34 PM

:doh:Oi!

DRG

January 19th, 2023, 12:45 PM

Just an FYI - I have decided that the Captured Russian tanks will stay in the Ukrainian OOB but they all will be given the 159 Unit class = "Captured tanks" So they will not show up in normal Ukrainian armoured formations but will be available in one and twos.

The APC's etc for now are in normal formation UC's

DRG

January 19th, 2023, 05:48 PM

Also, not noted is that the T-80BVM are not equipped with rear mounted fuel tanks as currently shown in the OOB.

Agreed the photos of these things do not show rear fuel tanks

BUT

https://i.redd.it/l9mq4gy73as61.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/NplMZwg.png

But NOTE the cradles to hold them ARE there

DRG

January 19th, 2023, 07:58 PM

Should be an interesting day tomorrow... MAYBE

Story by Reuters • 3h ago

Estonia (Reuters) - Several countries will announce sending Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine on Friday at a meeting at the German Ramstein Air Base, the Lithuanian defence minister said on Thursday.

"pledging" is one thing..... the M-84 comes to mind....... it's what crosses the border that counts

DRG

January 20th, 2023, 12:43 PM

Just more dithering

Ukraine will have to wait longer for the battle tanks it says it needs from Western allies in order to recapture territory occupied by Russia.

A meeting of U.S. and European defense ministers failed to come to any agreement on the delivery of main battle tanks Friday, Germany's new Defense Minister Boris Pistorius told reporters after the meeting at Ramstein Air Base.

FASTBOAT TOUGH

January 20th, 2023, 01:42 PM

i SHOULD BE IN THE SHOWER BUT SAW THIS. sTORY GOOD SCROLL TO BOTTOM FOR WHY i'M not WERE i SHOULD BE now!!

https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_january_2023_global_security_army_ind ustry/us_approves_delivery_to_ukraine_of_59_additional_b radley_m2a2_ifvs_and_90_stryker_apcs.html

Pat

DRG

January 20th, 2023, 06:23 PM

Wonderful.........

FASTBOAT TOUGH

January 21st, 2023, 01:21 PM

This has been inside my head for almost three months now and has come more to the forefront while working on my submission.

The country is currently taking a neutral stance on the Russian Ukrainian War though there is some talk within the country of maybe sending humanitarian aid.

There's also been no mention from the Western allies concerning this tank at all which is somewhat surprising given the push especially earlier in the war to get the Ukraine tanks they're used to operating.

The country I'm talking about has 48 such tanks that beat out at least one European, a couple of Russian and finally I believe it was one Chinese offering during those countries tank competition around 2010.

Need more? OK, ended up buying Chinese VT-4 tanks so that they could retire their M-48 "Bulldogs".

Time to end this "madness" and get it out of my head.

Besides the fact they REALLY like this tank, why at least publicly hasn't anyone approached Thailand concerning buying or trading for the 48 OPLOT-T tanks they have and sending them back to the Ukraine?

Just had to get that off my shoulder.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Mobhack

January 21st, 2023, 02:04 PM

South Korea could also donate the 33 T-80s they got as a part exchange from Russia to settle a trade debt, those things must be total orphans in thier tank fleet...

FASTBOAT TOUGH

January 22nd, 2023, 03:13 AM

Forgot about those. I believe S. Korea just retired them in the last couple of years.

The real upside is S. Korea has taken good care of them as well.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

blazejos

January 22nd, 2023, 05:16 PM

Poland will send more T-72 and BWP-1 enough to equip whole tank mechanised brigade. This is what is possible to be done in that dire situation on eastern front.

https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_january_2023_global_security_army_ind ustry/poland_will_equip_one_ukrainian_army_brigade_with_ more_t-72_tanks_and_bwp-1_ifvs.html
https://en.defence-ua.com/news/ukrainian_army_will_get_an_entire_brigade_of_40_t_ 72_tanks_up_to_100_bmp_1_vehicles_from_poland-5517.html

Is also considered to send Leopard 2 even without German approval and their support. That was already done when soviet license build T-72 where delivered in this last year without Russian approval to re-export their design :) even they were quite against this ;)

https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_january_2023_global_security_army_ind ustry/poland_intends_to_send_leopard_2_tanks_to_ukraine_ without_german_approval.html
https://en.defence-ua.com/news/poland_to_give_leopard_tanks_to_ukraine_without_ge rmanys_consent-5516.html

https://en.defence-ua.com/news/poles_will_train_ukrainian_crews_of_german_leopard _2_tanks-5502.html

DRG

January 22nd, 2023, 05:23 PM

The tight control the Germans keep on their exports may be why South Korea armour is gaining attention

blazejos

January 22nd, 2023, 05:28 PM

Here is story of Leopards in polish service with dates of deliveries and answere why Poland in near future wants to have only Korean and US tanks

https://en.defence-ua.com/events/how_long_it_took_poland_to_buy_leopard_2_and_how_l ong_it_took_germany_to_help_repair_them-5461.html

FASTBOAT TOUGH

January 22nd, 2023, 08:36 PM

Breaking international export restrictions would have dire consequences for the BUYER exporting country and have possible unforeseen consequences for the importers of modern weaponry such as tanks etc. across the board.

Regardless of the considerations are the other political consequences with Poland's neighbor to the West and possibly in NATO and there's nothing more Putin would love to see right now.

If Poland moved ahead and violated the Germans "sovereign" right to protect their technology under international contract law, what for instance would the United States think could potentially happen to their M1A1 and M1A2PL ABRAMS once in Poland's hands?

Will they send them to the Ukraine?

Even a "watered down" ABRAMS can be reversed engineered to a point to provide at least some insight of what came before and to see into the future a little.

What do you think we're doing right now with the Russian T-73B3/B3M, T-80BVM, T-90/90A and the T-90MS?

But the BIG DIFFERENCE is that Russia a BELIGERENT in the war and NATO isn't.

I don't know what plans Don has for those tanks; I'll assume he will stay with when they get there which maybe next year and we're not chasing dates.

But does anyone really 12-14 CHALLENGER 2 tanks and maybe 50 LEOPARDS are going to win this war? In the game depending on how Don allocates them you might be able to buy as many as you want

But if truly official this just came across the wire.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/germany-okays-a-dozen-polish-tanks-for-ukraine-hundreds-more-could-follow/ar-AA16Dc7I?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=15c72c5319fd49aba42ad749165d514c

Told you I'm always watching.

To make my final point anyway, Thailand sending back their OPLOT-T (48) & S. Korea T-80 (33-Andy) would help as they require no training and they have the ammo same for next, the Russian Capture tanks (i.e., T-72B3M @ 100+) will and are having a more immediate impact at least in stabilizing the front.

And the news I just posted in NO WAY changes anything I posted as above. As the ref. says Germany has "green lighted" this release.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

DRG

January 22nd, 2023, 08:38 PM

further to that......

Minister: Germany won't block Poland giving Ukraine tanks
Story by The Canadian Press • 2h ago

KYIV, Ukraine (AP) — The German government will not object if Poland decides to send Leopard 2 battle tanks to Ukraine, Germany's top diplomat said Sunday

DRG

January 22nd, 2023, 08:42 PM

What both the Challys and the Leos will be is the Number 1 priority target for destruction or capture or both as a propaganda coup

"They" will want photos like this to show the world

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2018/01/31/12/48BD1B4200000578-5332247-image-a-44_1517403386722.jpg

One wrecked NATO tank is worth 100 photos of lid-flipping T-72/T-80/T-90 and we've seen A LOT of those images

FASTBOAT TOUGH

January 23rd, 2023, 12:16 AM

Well, that didn't take too long!

As soon as Don and I posted the good news that Germany has allowed Poland to release their LEOPARD 2A4/5 tanks to the Ukraine the internet is going a little "crazy" about why Germany won't release theirs.

Even the ones released will require a Maintenace period and training, lots of training. Summer at best if they're going to give those crews a chance in battle.

Now to Germany proper, they don't have that many tanks (Poland operates almost as many and Spain and Turkey more of them.) and most are being "RESET" to the LEOPARD 2A7V+ (Which is in the game.)

So, what can Germany do?

Well one a "quick" option is to release their active service LEOPARD 2A5 tanks used for training and if you will, an active reserve force.
https://news.yahoo.com/19-german-leopard-2-tanks-112200697.html

What about BUNDERWEHR stores?
The above touches on that however, we don't know if they'll commit those.

WHY?

Germany just passed its largest Military Budget I believe I read, since the Cold War and are going to enter into a major expansion across all branches. This will include a much larger tank force afterall Germany is a big country.

What about Rheinmetall?

Glad you asked!! :D I'll just copy from the below...

"Battle tanks from German industrial reserves wanted by Ukraine will not be ready to be delivered until 2024, the arms manufacturer Rheinmetall has warned, increasing pressure on Nato allies to support Ukraine with armoured vehicles in active service instead, ahead of a key meeting this week."

What are those tanks?

"Rheinmetall, which manufactures the battle vehicle’s gun, has 22 Leopard 2 and 88 older Leopard 1 tanks in its stocks. Getting the Leopard tanks ready for battle, however, would take several months and cost hundreds of millions of euros the company could not put up until the order was confirmed, Papperger said."
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/15/german-battle-tanks-for-ukraine-wont-be-ready-until-2024
https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2023-01-15/repaired-german-leopard-tanks-for-ukraine-ready-in-2024-at-earliest-armsmaker-says
("The German army has only around 350 Leopard 2 tanks today, compared to some 4,000 battle main tanks at the height of the Cold War.")

Tanks ain't cheap! Some of you that have been following for some time now might remember me using the USA term "RESET" going back to when I submitted the ABRAMS SEP V2 which was the first time I saw the term used.

That is what Rheinmetall intends to do if "green lighted" to start processing those tanks. By conducting a RESET you are for a DEEP RESET (SEP V2) gutting it and stripping the armor layers off the hull. In other words, a brand-new tank.

But Rheinmetall is talking in terms of months, so what I see especially for the LEOPARD A15 (My pick as to what they have.) is to remove all analog systems and installing all new digital ones so new FCS to include TI/GSR etc. , enhancing gun operations Stabilization etc. and a new armor package I can see AMAP on this tank which was used I believe first on the later 2A5 and up to mid 2A6 tanks.
https://rheinmetall-defence.com/en/rheinmetall_defence/public_relations/news/detail_1408.php
(There are newer versions now.)
https://www.military-today.com/tanks/revolution.htm
(For example purposes.)

If they do as I'm not afraid to put myself out there, that based on the STEEL limitations of the A15 armor numbers in the late 2A4 to early/mid (?) 2A5.

That's of course conjecture on my part. And I own that! :p

Well, I close out with what is the LEOPARD situation in the West (Asia (Singapore notably) & South America (Chile notably) are not covered.), well I got that covered to! :cool:
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_january_2023_global_security_army_ind ustry/analysis_which_countries_can_supply_ukraine_with_l eopard_2_tanks_and_why_.html

Now leave Germany alone afterall I was a citizen after I was born for about 3yrs. don't ask I might have to shoot you!?! :rolleyes:

From the editor: The above statement is NOT meant as a "Terrorist Threat" the staff has determined it was only a joke. :D
However, Joe is missing if you see him, please let us know where he is. Never mind we (:ghug:) decided we didn't like him anyway!?! ;)

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

DRG

January 23rd, 2023, 09:25 AM

Even the ones released will require a Maintenace period and training, [B]lots of training. Summer at best if they're going to give those crews a chance in battle.

Well I guess I will hang mine in the breeze as well so this is all supposition as well

Even if Poland, for example, starts sending Leos next week I suspect there will be a flurry of selected crew "familiarization" sessions in Ukraine. The Ukrainians have shown themselves to be fast learners AND (really important) they have been actively at war for 11 months.

There is "peacetime" training and "wartime" training and there is an expected spring offensive coming so there will be an intensive drive to get crews in these things learning how they work and I would assume this familiarization will be 24/7 because you need back up crews trained

So......... don't think in leisurely peacetime terms for readiness. My bet is two months tops after the first ones arrive because IMHO "the other side" is, IMHO, not going to wait until after the spring thaw but that is the big unknown but if it was me I would have crews in those first tanks rotated 24 hours a day.

HOWEVER.... It would not surprise me to learn that there have been select Ukrainian crews training on them in Poland on the QT and if they have ( wouldn't you if you could ? ) then they may ( maybe--should ) have operational readiness before we release the next upgrade. They NEED those things ready before the spring otherwise they are wasted, Don't think in peacetime terms

FASTBOAT TOUGH

January 23rd, 2023, 11:23 PM

I understand the training part very well as we trained for war nonstop for it especially while at sea over my 12yrs under the seas.

I framed the "timeframe" the way I did because of what's been reported thus far concerning the Ukrainian T-55S with a fairly advanced western FCS and gun.

They received the first of those tanks on 30 Oct '22 the Forbes article from about 10 days ago or less in my submission package clearly stated from the reporter on the scene they were still in training with them.

It also took some time to add the SLAT and additional ERA package that might've taken two weeks (?) given the numbers involved.

But the training goes beyond knowing your equipment, it's also knowing how you are expected to operate with the units you'll be working with.

We used the concept of CONOPS all my career whether at sea or while at the Admirals Staff Operations Center @ SUBGRU 10. This concept is used by all our military across the board. I'm sure same for all foreign militaries as well. This is as relevant now as when published.
https://www.armyupress.army.mil/Portals/7/military-review/Archives/English/MilitaryReview_20131231_art011.pdf

We are currently in Germany holding Brigade size training for Ukrainians soldiers at all levels of the C&C to include training for the trainers on the M1A2 BRADLEY ODAS (About 1/2 of our current BRADLEY Fleet of ~2200 units.).

The purpose of which is to teach them how to more effectively use our equipment (Interoperability) for combined arms rapid maneuver movement in battle. They've been at it for about a month. I recently posted on that along w/UK planning to 20.000 Ukrainian troops in England this year.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

DRG

January 24th, 2023, 12:05 AM

If you see a photo of this slat addition post a link

FASTBOAT TOUGH

January 24th, 2023, 01:55 AM

Alright reposting the article from "FORBES" again.

I copied their picture above the article. I was able to blow it up on my PC to 627% but can't make exactly what's hanging at the rear of the tank. My thinking is either cables or chains.

To the SLAT you can clearly see it on the rear of the turret bustle.

On the sides you should be able to see it just "aft" of the side ERA on the side of the tank. Blowing that up, it just becomes more clearly present and also appears the SLAT is pretty "stout"
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russia-has-a-plan-for-pinning-down-ukraine-s-super-upgraded-m-55s-tanks/ar-AA15WpCv

16820

The article indicates that there were other pictures taken however I couldn't find them. Maybe on TWITTER?

EDIT: Just verified picture above is SAT and everyone should be able to see the SLAT without any "fancy" stuff.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

DRG

January 24th, 2023, 05:37 AM

The bit on the rear of the turret bustle does not look like slat at all when enlarged but the bits that cover the rear sides do. The bit on the bustle looks like a way to keep things from falling out of the bustle

https://i.imgur.com/OkxymZ1.png

But at least now I know the slat is not covering the rear hull or turret sides

Hopefully, there will be more images posted

FASTBOAT TOUGH

January 24th, 2023, 12:11 PM

I agree with you on that. I was so focused what's "hanging" from the rear that I missed that completely when I "blew up" the picture at my end. :doh:

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

FASTBOAT TOUGH

January 24th, 2023, 02:42 PM

I've sat on this for a few days now, one reason for this is simply on our "game world" these tanks won't really matter based on what's in the game now and what's to come.

But more importantly what would be the political fallout from these tanks and the country sending them.

The Middle East and Africa has been generally neutral on the Ukrainian War issue. And none have donated any military equipment until now.

I speck of Morrocco who (Along with Tunisa) who have recently just sent the Ukraine 20 modernized T-72B tanks that arrived last week. This commitment actually came about in April '22.

Russia had hoped that the Middle East would stay neutral concerning the war to protect their own interests there. One of them being Algeria.

Morrocco and Algerian relations aren't necessarily on the best of terms right now and haven't been for a while. But the other problem is the Middle East has a lot of tanks. And Morrocco has just "cracked open" the faucet. How just follow the refs.

https://www.military.africa/2023/01/morocco-sends-20-modernized-t-72-tanks-to-ukraine-as-germany-witholds-leopard-2s/#:~:text=Morocco%20has%20sent%20tanks%20to%20Ukrai ne%20to%20enhance,nation%20to%20send%20support%20t o%20the%20war-torn%20country.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/what-are-t-72b-tanks-morocco-supplies-ukraine-with-upgraded-weaponry/ar-AA16EcRK

Now to the "faucet" it appears Germany has been working behind the scenes with Jordan. This to take some pressure off I'm sure concerning the LEOPARD tank issue at their end.

The thing is Jorden doesn't have any LEOPARDS (Well not yet if this gets done. ;)) however, they do have 400 Challenger 1 tanks in storage. except for the below I'll leave the rest for to read the ref. someone has to go to work.
"Overall, Challenger 1 destroyed roughly 300 Iraqi Soviet-made tanks, while the Iraqi forces failed to take a single tank out of combat. During operation Desert Storm the Challenger 1 tank engaged an enemy target at a range of 5,100 m."

Need I say more? Read the ref.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_january_2023_global_security_army_ind ustry/germany_could_propose_refurbished_challenger_1_mai n_battle_tanks_to_ukraine.html

Obviously, this bears watching.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

DRG

January 24th, 2023, 03:03 PM

To say the situation is " fluid and evolving" would be a gross understatement

I had not considered the Jordanian Al-Hussein/Challys but according to Wiki ( So I will be digging deeper ....BUT that info originated from Janes )

https://web.archive.org/web/20180701195336/http://www.janes.com/article/78095/jordan-restructures-its-armoured-formations

Challengers will be phased out of service and replaced by 141 ex-Italian Army B1 Centauro 8x8 Mobile Gun Systems as well as ex-German Marder 1A3 Infantry Fighting Vehicles[/quote]

and according to Janes they are already in service so I need to get those into the OOB's

Janes claims the Al-Hussein/Chally"it is unlikely that many are still in service.

which doesn't say much about their servicing history so these will likely require a LOT of time and effort to be serviceable but there may be enough to get at least a couple of companies running with a lot of "spare parts" not any time soon and another nightmare for Ukrainian supply officers

FUN!

FASTBOAT TOUGH

January 25th, 2023, 03:51 AM

That's maybe for another day-however since you brought it up, we addressed their heavy tank issue last year when OMAN donated a large amount of their LeClerc tanks to them. We don't have the latest updated one that UAE (GULF STATES OOB) UNITS 028 (Can't find the 2nd one!?!) and sent to JORDAN UNIT 038 as we entered last year to fill the hole.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_september_2020_global_security_army_i ndustry/united_arab_emirates_to_donate_80_french-made_leclerc_mbts_to_jordan.html
(READ PARA 1. "All these units are equipped with older tanks such as the Tariq (Centurion), the M60 A1, the Al Khalid (Chieftain), or the Al Hussein (Challenger1)."

I'm really here to present a viable standard EXPORT version of the M1A1 ABRAMS.

I am currently a little :cold: right now as how the xxxx did the USMC end up with so many FEP tanks!?! Where I asked for those units to have TROPHY removed PROBALY should've been to delete them! I feel better now not what I wanted to deal with coming home from work. Of course, this came up while looking into the OOB to give you the following. :rolleyes:

The news is we're sending M1A1 ABRAMS to the Ukraine in the DOZENS so Poland you're not going to get as many now. The first USMC M1A1 tanks left Sierra Depot for Anniston Depot almost 2 weeks ago at that time for upgrade to the M1A2C (SEP 3) . That upgrade won't happen now since Poland and as of yesterday afternoon the Ukraine made the news.
https://www.dvidshub.net/video/867332/sierra-army-depot-preps-m1a1-tanks-anniston-army-depot

I thought I'd have more time on this, but I've taken a good look into this proposed EXPORT M1A1 ABRAMS.

I used the following "primary" units (As there were about 3 more.)

IRAQ/M1A1 SA ABRAMS/UNIT 006//USMC/M1A1HC/UNIT 840//USMC/M1A1HC TUSK-T/UNIT 853//

I choose to work with USMC UNIT 840 to minimize the changes and it was simply a better fit.

First ...
USMC/CHANGE/M1A1HC/UNIT 840/END/DEC 2025 vice SEP 2009/SATISFIES USMC NEED FOR A NORMAL M1A1 ABRAMS/REMINDER FEP BOOSTED FCS. //

UKRAINE/ADD/MODIFIED USMC/M1A1HC/UNIT 840/AS BASE/CHANGE FOR EXPORT VERSION/TI/GSR 45/FC 50/STEEL TF 90/TR 15/HEAT HF 95/TR 35/TIME ALLOWS FOR IMPROVEMENT OVER IRAQ M1A1 SA/FACTORS IN DU REMOVAL. //
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/us-and-germany-set-to-send-tanks-to-ukraine-breaking-deadlock/ar-AA16HvWm
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/us-poised-to-approve-sending-abrams-tanks-to-ukraine/ar-AA16HMEu
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/24/us/politics/biden-administration-tanks-ukraine.html
(News broke around 2000 Washington time.)

UAE and JORDAN can wait, and I was on that last year. Please just leave that for me you have Ukraine to deal with as more important right now BEFORE WE ALL FALL OVER!

I have got to get to bed.

I retirement can't ^!@#*$? get here soon enough!?!

EDIT: Why I say we need to SLOW DOWN things are changing TOO FAST and here's the LATEST!! WE SEND ABRAMS so...
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_january_2023_global_security_army_ind ustry/germany_approves_the_delivery_to_ukraine_of_leopar d_2a6_tanks_mbts.html
(Literally just "popped up" as I was closing out sites. Just my luck!?! :re:)

RECOMMEND/GERMAN/LEOPARD 2A6/UNITS 033 OR 035/WITH NO CHANGES/NO DU ISSUES/FOR UKRAINE//.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

DRG

January 25th, 2023, 11:13 AM

....... how the xxxx did the USMC end up with so many FEP tanks!?! Where I asked for those units to have TROPHY removed PROBALY should've been to delete them! I feel better now not what I wanted to deal with coming home from work. Of course, this came up while looking into the OOB to give you the following. :rolleyes:

I don't have "control" of the USMC OOB at the moment so direct any suggestions to "you-know-who"

The news is we're sending M1A2 ABRAMS to the Ukraine in the DOZENS
==============

UKRAINE/ADD/MODIFIED USMC/M1A1HC/UNIT 840/AS BASE/CHANGE FOR EXPORT VERSION/TI/GSR 45/FC 50/STEEL TF 90/TR 15/HEAT HF 95/TR 35/TIME ALLOWS FOR IMPROVEMENT OVER IRAQ M1A1 SA/FACTORS IN DU REMOVAL. //
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/us-and-germany-set-to-send-tanks-to-ukraine-breaking-deadlock/ar-AA16HvWm
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/us-poised-to-approve-sending-abrams-tanks-to-ukraine/ar-AA16HMEu
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/24/us/politics/biden-administration-tanks-ukraine.html
(News broke around 2000 Washington time.) [/B]

******* in the process of doing that now but you need to clarify why if M1A2 ABRAMS are being sent why exactly am I being asked to put the M1A1HC in ?? .......once you'd had your beauty rest......

EDIT: Why I say we need to SLOW DOWN things are changing TOO FAST and here's the LATEST!! WE SEND ABRAMS so...
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_january_2023_global_security_army_ind ustry/germany_approves_the_delivery_to_ukraine_of_leopar d_2a6_tanks_mbts.html
(Literally just "popped up" as I was closing out sites. Just my luck!?! :re:)

RECOMMEND/GERMAN/LEOPARD 2A6/UNITS 033 OR 035/WITH NO CHANGES/NO DU ISSUES/FOR UKRAINE//.

******** I already have various Leos in the OOB just waiting to be activated so I will do that now...... and Ukraine gets its own Icon
==============

I have got to get to bed.

I retirement can't ^!@#*$? get here soon enough!?!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

"retirement"..ROTFLMAO I used to be able to got to work to catch a break ! now I'm busier than ever. I laugh at people who ask me " don't you get bored not working?" HAHAHAHAHAHA

NO, and I retired 16 years ago and it's 10:30 and I still haven't finished the coffee I poured at 8am or had my breakfast because I've been in and out of both games testing changes, in and out of the HTMP editor for both game guides adding new info, in and out of my graphics program, in and out of SHPEDIT.... "don't you get bored" :re:

================================================== ===============================================
Here is what just went in. I am using a "generic" 120 L55 "gun"/ammo for this...... guessing there will be no " silver bullets" sent so this will be what the L55 Leos use as well.

https://i.imgur.com/ZtrgKVg.png

https://i.imgur.com/BrjfJoq.png