MBT's

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

In quotes are from my last post, with additional comment below...

"I used the following "primary" units (As there were about 3 more.)"

I looked at a combination (USA/USMC) of 6 M1A1 ABRAMS.)

"IRAQ/M1A1 SA ABRAMS/UNIT 006//USMC/M1A1HC/UNIT 840//USMC/M1A1HC TUSK-T/UNIT 853//"

My FINAL 3 of the 6 original tanks looked at.

"I choose to work with USMC UNIT 840 to minimize the changes and it was simply a better fit."

It hit the "Sweet Spot" of the six that I would use a "base model" to adjust from for a reasonable M1A1 Export model.

USMC issue is a different matter and will need a further look later. Bottomline maybe only a 1/3 at best of the of the M1A1 saw conversion to the FEP series the rest were simple m1a1 tanks and I felt that USMC UNIT 840 fit the bill, which is why I submitted it new END Date. I'm also looking at TI/GSR 45 for UNIT 840 but I need more info to support this.

Appreciate you used my numbers, needless to say I was ready for bed when done.

This just "popped up", but as you'll see if you read SLOWLY there's nothing, I haven't already mentioned concerning its problems over the years already.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_january_2023_global_security_army_ind ustry/russian_latest_generation_t-14_armata_mbt_not_yet_operational_for_ukraine_batt lefield.html

Now it's time to get ready for you know what.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

Yeah but...... you said add the M1A1 but also said the A2 was being sent so what do you want me to call this then ?

[DRG]

This just "popped up", but as you'll see if you read SLOWLY there's nothing, I haven't already mentioned concerning its problems over the years already.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_january_2023_global_security_army_ind ustry/russian_latest_generation_t-14_armata_mbt_not_yet_operational_for_ukraine_batt lefield.html


Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Into date for that thing right now is 6/2024 which IS IN THE FUTURE and when more future has passed it will probably get adjusted AGAIN but for now 6/124 is GOOD ENOUGH

[DRG]

31 are being sent

“The reason for 31 is because that is how many tanks would constitute a Ukrainian Tank Battalion,” an official said. “So we are specifically meeting that requirement.”

Reuters says

31 advanced M1 Abrams

This suggests if they are deployed to an area they will all be deployed together which may make putting them in their own unit class a possibility but that requires adjustment to the picklists so maybe we just leave it up to individual players

[DRG]

We'll see how this plays out

Quoting a Forbes article
But the thousands of M-1A1s and A2s in active U.S. service, or in storage at American arsenals, include the uranium armor. The Pentagon as a matter of policy never has exported these tanks. Instead, when it sells M-1s—say, to Iraq, Saudi Arabia or Poland—it first commissions General Dynamics to build special versions of the tanks without the uranium armor component.

Unless the administration of Pres. Joe Biden can convince a foreign Abrams-user to give up some of its existing tanks, General Dynamics will need to prepare a new batch of uranium-free M-1s—and that could take many months, if not a year or more.

It very well could be that the US agreeing to supply Abrams was what it took to get Germany to release Leos but that does not mean "right away" what is ready "right away" are Leos so the Abrams may be more of a 2024 start date rather than 2023 but we have a couple of months anyway to get a better idea of what actually is going on and try to get better start dates

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Don,
1. M1A2 was a TYPO ON MY PART. :doh: We have the RIGHT tank. :cool: Post #1498 now corrected. ;)

2. ARMATA START JUN 2024 STILL GOOD. I found the article useful in that it actually seems they were at least close to the Ukraine but more importantly, that it's pretty bad when operationally the forces on the ground found conditions so bad with the ARMATA that they had to be sent back as they were completely unusable.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russian-soldiers-rejecting-t-14-armata-battle-tanks-over-quality-mod/ar-AA16JmeH?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=d8d87ce6645445758aabe77c668cb223

3. 31 units makes up the Standard Ukraiian tank Battalion. The plan is to form 3 complete heavy armor Battalions of 1 ABRAMS and 2 of mixed LEOPARDS from donating users likely to be Poland, Finland and or other NATO countries. Sweden might offer up STRV 122 as well.

However, these are well short of the 300 being requested.

Taking the above real-world situation into consideration, and applying to our game world, I'm requesting you give consideration to allowing the player to buy as needed the T-72B3 (83+ Captured) and T-72B3M (100+ Captured) as I submitted to you last week.

4. Push the START date of the M1A1UKR ABRAMS to SEP 2023.

All reports HERE were it matters are indicating a minimum of 4-5 months before they can even leave the U.S. just to prepare the tanks. Also being mentioned it could be a year before they field them.

One of the issues (Of many.) is the fuel type and consumption. If you're unaware the ABRAMS normally uses Jet Fuel. Where the Ukraine is having a hard enough time just to keep Diesel in their tanks for a variety of reasons to include major infrastructure damage to pipelines etc.

From only a logistical standpoint, they have major issues to address in suppling this type of fuel in a war zone. We can do it however we won't be there to do it for the Ukrainians to provide the logistical support this tank needs. IT WILL TAKE TIME. The following addresses these issues and more. So, I really hope you take the time to read these thoroughly to fully understand the situation.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/biden-approves-sending-31-abrams-tanks-to-ukraine/ar-AA16JOzn?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=123ce65800084cfd91775d701ae65ec7
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/game-changing-abrams-tanks-present-one-glaring-problem-for-ukraine/ar-AA16KanZ?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=27d3030307d94c5ba08e45755f3fa62d
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/what-difference-will-the-tanks-for-ukraine-make/ar-AA16K8DW?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=334e7b669f5640768e55ad53374be61e

Though tied into the above FINALLY in simple terms etc. I found an article that vindicates me on the need for "Export" related tanks from supplier countries and my issue about DU Armor. Halleluiah! :eek: :cool: :D
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/m1-abrams-tanks-in-u-s-inventory-have-armor-too-secret-to-send-to-ukraine/ar-AA16JSSZ?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=334e7b669f5640768e55ad53374be61e

Don and I reverse roles all the time over the years, we keep each other "in check" which provides balance-sometimes.

This time it appears it's my turn to be the contrarian.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

Pat. I have read other reports getting bent out of shape over the " jet fuel" (non)issue and a lot of that comes from the original excuses for not sending them as that MSN report shows....


For weeks, Pentagon officials said publicly that the Abrams tanks weren't suited for the fight in Ukraine, including because of the fuel they need to operate.

"jet fuel" is the preferred fuel in the US Army and that is what gives the very best performance.

BUT.....the engine was designed to be multi-fuel and those "Pentagon officials" would have or should have known the vehicles engine was multi fuel

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/0902dp-m1-abrams-tank/


Its 1,500hp Honeywell turbine engine can burn a variety of fuels including diesel, jet fuel, gasoline, and marine diesel. The advantage of a turbine engine versus a diesel engine is that it requires no warm-up period, has less moving parts, and needs no cooling system.

and further about fuel from another source....(slightly edited for clarity)



Pretty much whatever you like - just so long as you have lots of it.

So far it’s the only MBT in mass production with a turbine engine (the Russians did have an attempt at it but gave up). Turbines are really useful as they’re compact, very powerful, and you can feed them pretty much anything so long as it’s a liquid containing hydrocarbons. Cooking fuel, aviation gas, diesel, petrol, methanol, alcohol, you name it

and.........


This is great for the Logistics chaps as they don’t have to worry about providing different fuels for different vehicles and, in extreme situations the tank may be able to procure something locally if fuel is limited. The downside for Logistics is that the Abrams drinks fuel like it’s in the only open bar on judgement day


And that "jet fuel" can be plain old Kerosene so "fuel" for them is not a problem except for how much of it you need ( or if nice short "sound bite" excuse is needed for not sending them )

That all said IMHO and I am not alone, Germany needed to be seen as not be the only ones sending "NATO" MBTs and the US sending Abrams allowed them to say "it's not just us" and it *may* have been the UK agreeing to send Challengers that uncorked that particular bottleneck. Abrams and Challengers will be useful but neither of those will be as potentially plentiful from so many other sources as the Leo and from the info I have read, it's also the MBT with the quickest learning curve to operate and maintain.

[whdonnelly]

I went into Scenario 151 Breaking the Shackles and did some quick substitutions for various 2022 NATO units vs 2022 Russian units. Interesting results. The T-90s look pretty effective but I'm having trouble finding any news source that mentions them being used in any number. Any suggestions?

Will

[DRG]

https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html

I have NO IDEA when this was last updated

That lists destroyed Russian tanks.
"Tanks (1646, of which destroyed: 967, damaged: 75, abandoned: 59, captured: 545)"

The T-90 is near the bottom

31 T-90A:
3 T-90S: ( that's supposed to be the "export" version )
10 T-90M:

44 total known destroyed or damaged or abandoned....... that should give you an idea of the numbers used but 10% of your force in the game would IMHO be too many unless you were trying to create an "elite" unit

[whdonnelly]

I was thinking of a mix of 70% T-72 variants and 30% everything else for the Russians. This is too much fun, throwing in K2 and K1A1.

Thanks to everyone for the hard work!

Will

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

ORNX is consistently updating this and the Ukrainian list as well, as I noted in my last submission and other posts. By way of example, when I started putting this together last Oct. on my list of equipment to submit (Russian) as captured by the Ukraine I recorded in my notes how many were captured throughout the process until submitted.

T-72B3M (100) + the plus indicated the number had increased since I last recorded it. I would update them also throughout the two weeks I was working on the list on WORD for my final submission to include the night I posted it.

Not all increased in the final night but, 2 tanks and 1 APC did see increases of no more than by 3 units.

In short everyday once a unit has been verified to fall into any of the categories they're using to include the "Unidentified" sections on the ORNX list and as I also submitted in the submission, this lends itself to the validity of the ORNX list.

Track it for yourself you'll see a change on a couple since I posted my submission last week.
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/
(Know and "reference" your source.)
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html
(Russia)
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-ukrainian.html
(Ukraine Sroll down this list see what FLAGS also come up from foreign suppliers.)
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/03/list-of-aircraft-losses-during-2022.html
If it flies both sides.)

Defense and Media are using this site as "another tool in the toolbox" that's good enough for me and as I pointed out in an earlier post it's also good enough for JANE's though CINCLANTHOME doesn't really appreciate that!?! :angel

I almost forgot; I believe Mark S. was the first to bring it up but yes, the T-90S is confirmed by varies media outlets as being involved in the Ukraine. Numbers are mixed however all seem to indicate a small amount only involved.

DIDN'T MAKE MY LIST AS IT DIDN'T MEET MY "2+1" REQUIREMENT AND THERE WAS NO ADDED VALUE TO HAVING THEM IN WHEN I HAD BETTER QUALITY RUSSIAN ONES ALREADY SUBMITTED. NOT SHOUT JUST MISS KEYING IS ALL-SO GOOD NIGHT!!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_january_2023_global_security_army_ind ustry/six_european_countries_agree_the_delivery_to_ukrai ne_of_leopard_2_tanks.html

Six European countries including Finland, Germany, Norway, Poland, Portugal, and Spain are ready to provide Ukraine with Leopard 2 Main Battle Tanks (MBTs) coming from their military inventories. On January 25, 2023, the Government of Germany approved the delivery to Ukraine of 14 Leopard 2A6

This is what is potentially available ( so far........)

- Finland: 100 Leopard 2A6 in service and 100 Leopard 2A4 in store
- Germany: 223 leopard 2A5/2A6 in service, 98 Leopard 2A7/2A7V, 55 Leopard 2A4 in store
- Norway: 36 Leopard 2A4 in service and 16 in store
- Poland: 97 Leopard 2A4, 105 Leopard 2A5, and 45 Leopard 2PL
- Portugal: 37 Leopard 2A6 in service
- Spain: 108 Leopard 2A4 and 219 Leopard 2E, a Spanish variant of the German-made Leopard 2A6.

and FWIW Canada has promised 4 2A4's from storage and the info I have is regular maintenance has not been done so who knows if or when they might/maybe get there and if they are the 2A4 or 2A4M


I already have 2A4's and 2A6's "active" in the UKR OOB and we'll see if any 2A5's show up. There are a couple of months yet to nail halfway probably WAG for when they might enter service with Ukraine

[blazejos]

Poland will transfer not only 14 Leopards but also additional older PT-91 Twardy and T-72M1R altogether 60 tanks

Video from Canadian News

https://en.defence-ua.com/industries/poland_is_ready_to_transfer_60_more_tanks_to_ukrai ne_in_addition_to_14_leopard_2_tanks-5566.html
https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/better-late-than-never-polish-pm-applauds-west-for-sending-tanks-to-ukraine-1.6248472
https://mil.in.ua/en/news/poland-is-ready-to-transfer-pt-91-twardy-and-leopard-2-tanks-to-ukraine/

[DRG]

The good news is I already had them in the OOB
Did Poland send the non ERA version of the 91 as well ?

https://i.imgur.com/CgYnTzD.png

[blazejos]

There is no Non ERA version of PT-91 Twardy [ That was main advantage over T-72]
But if we talked about T-72M1R they are without ERA bricks but as we saw Ukrainians equip them with ERA their own way

So what I found

This is T-72M1R(+) with Ukrainians additions from part which arrived to them in May 2022 visible are Kontakt Reactive armour on tower and hull also sides. Probably this bath will be upgraded the same way and painted to dark green colour.

https://mil.in.ua/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/FUHLz53XwAA8UnF-1.jpg

[DRG]

Ah ! OK.

That is the photo I have in the game and I have it with ERA blocks...... but there are no PT-91's without ERA.. correct?

[blazejos]

Yes they are only in this variant with polish ERAWA era bricks so Ukrainians don't need to upgrade them with their Kontakt-1

Here is only know for me photo of PT-91 in Ukraine they are full green and look like they made for them some modifications but to which extend I don't know.
https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1551490434051997696

In 2016 Ukrainians have plans to join polish modernisation program of PT-91 why because this tank is still based on T-72 which the have and both tanks have many common parts probably this cooperation never happens
https://www.kyivpost.com/post/8466
but they have industrial capacity which can upgrade PT-91 with many additional devices or armour which is nearly identical like on their T-72. For exmaple their industry may use some solutions build for T-72AMT (2020) so is possible that existing variant PT-91"жорсткий"(+) but I have no any photo as for now. They are stories that PT-91 from first batch were used on Cherson direction in October/November.

https://mezha.media/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/PT-91_Twardy_01.jpg

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

I have come across a most interesting video from a "private sector" company under contract from the Russian Army to assist them in training tank crews.

This particular tank was in the most recent class to graduate from the school, though it is unsure why it took them two weeks to get to the front with it. It appears from this video they understand why now it took so long.

There are also similar stories of other tanks recently being delayed in getting to the front as well but at the same time, these are currently unconfirmed. But the reports point to the fact they went to the same training and potentially as yet unknown graduated in the same class as the one in the video below.

We are awaiting further information.
https://twitter.com/DefenceU/status/1619051741017948160?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1619051741017948160%7Ctwgr% 5E1007c24d1a06502d78d2cbfbdf0ac36dfe665538%7Ctwcon %5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.newsweek.com%2Fukraine-mocks-russians-video-tumbling-troops-after-tank-mishap-1777225

While uploading the above video we have received confirmation the missing tanks were from the same school and graduating class. The school is located in a small village about 18 miles SE of Moscow.

The name of the company is as translated "Tanks'r'Us LLC sounds familiar somehow.

It is also now known that all the instructors involved in training that class have been transferred to (I might be off a little on this translation) Gulag Firing-Squad, Siberia!?!
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ukraine-mocks-russians-with-video-of-tumbling-troops-after-tank-mishap/ar-AA16P2Wi?ocid=mailsignout&pc=U591&cvid=7921b9575c464f1186fabfb4c580d15c

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

Yeah........the guys trying to get out of that BMP(?) must have been really impressed with that tank commander as the cannon swept over the top of the vehicle

TO BE FAIR ( I know, it's difficult but.....) it's obvious the unit has just recently come under fire with one other tank with its turret upside down on the ground and probably chunks of what's left of that crew laying all over the place and a BMP smoking and coasting and the tank in question is buttoned up which means the crew has very limited " situational awareness" but they did swing the turret when they realized what as happening.

That may have been the first time that tank crew has seen combat There would have been orders being yelled over the intercom and three crewmen expecting their tank is next ...$hit happens. In combat it happens a lot

[DRG]

More on the Abrams fuel "issue"


The military used to buy three fuels for general battlefield service:

MOGAS, which is just plain old regular unleaded gasoline

DF2, which is Number 2 Diesel. (There’s also a Number 1 diesel, which is lower in viscosity. You see it in Alaska.)

JP4, which is jet fuel. JP4 is a 50–50 mix of gasoline and kerosene with added corrosion inhibitors, water absorbers and other chemicals to make it work better in a military aircraft.

The Abrams tank’s Honeywell turbine engine will run on anything that will burn, so they ran it on DF-2.

Then the military got smart: Why bring three different fuels to the field? Especially since jet fuel and diesel are very close to one another? They phased out as much gasoline-powered equipment as they could - things like small generator sets and lanterns still use gasoline - and switched all the JP4 and DF2 users to a new fuel called JP8…which is civil Jet A1 fuel that has corrosion and moisture inhibitors in it. Now the Abrams runs on JP8. They work hard to keep the quality of JP8 high, but if you get some water or crud in it, your tank will run badly.


and...........

The turbine was designed to use ANY liquid fuel from Benzene to Bacardi (151 and up)

[DRG]

https://mezha.media/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/PT-91_Twardy_01.jpg


From this it would appear than Polish Twardys do not have ERA on the hull sides only the hull front and turret front and side

?

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Don,
You'll be better at finding the posts then me. We had this discussion almost or than 10years ago When I came across the deal from Poland to supply Malaysia with the PT-91 PENDEKAR UNIT 500. This is relevant to the current discussion when you look at the ERA pkg., we gave it. What I don't remember are the particulars that would've been in the refs I supplied at the time; it'll be in this thread. But I do believe it predated the ERAWA-2 ERA.

Also, there's this as well...
Armament section:
"...and 24 grenade launchers fitted with smoke or anti-personnel fragmentation grenades. These are operated in conjunction with the OBRA laser warning system." This just caught my eye.

Design and Protection section:
"...explosive reactive armor Type ERAWA-1 (with one layer of explosive inside) and ERAWA-2 (with two layers of explosive inside) to the hull and turret. The armor package provides protection against the firing of small arms of 7.62, 12.7 and 14.5 mm caliber as well as cannon fragments between 20 and 30 mm."

Mobility:
"The upper part of the suspension is protected by steel armor plates with the forward part covered by ERAWA-1 explosive reactive armor blocks." You can see this clearly in the picture of the ref. below.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/poland_polish_tanks_heavy_armoured_vehicles_uk/pt-91_twardy_main_battle_tank_technical_data_sheet_sp ecifications_description_information_pictures.html
This ref has been updated as it shows Ukraine as a user. Also, they do a very good job of reviewing the data sheets to update them when a change comes about i.e., adding the Ukraine.
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/pt91_twardy.htm

Ref. 1
- PT-91M: export variant for Malaysia with SAGEM Savan-15 fire control system, PZL-Wola S-1000R 1,000 hp powerpack with Renk/SESM ESM-350M automatic transmission bringing its top speed to 70 km/h, and a new communications system. The main armament consists of a "Konštrukta defence a.s." design 2A46MS 125 mm tank gun made by ZTS - Špeciál a.s., a 7.62 mm FN MAG coaxial machine gun and a 12.7 mm FN Browning M2 HB AA machine gun. This variant is also equipped with Sagem VIGY 15 gyro-stabilized panoramic sight optronics, a SIGMA 30 laser gyro inertial navigation system, EADS EPS72 turret stabilization system, a PCO SSP-1 Obra-3 laser-warning system, integrated with ZM Dezamet 902A 81 mm smoke grenade launchers, CBRN warning system Pimco CHERDES II, communication systems: Thales TRC9310-3 F@stnet, Thales TRC3630-3, Thales SOTAS, 3rd gen. ERAWA 2 Explosive Reactive Armour, and Type 570P Diehl Remscheid GmbH tank tracks.

Ref. 2
PT-91M Pendekar export version supplied to Malaysia. This MBT is fitted with improved 125 mm gun, S-1000 engine, new hydropneumatic transmission, French fire control system, new communication system and some other changes.

I well remember now we discussed that Malasia's PT-91 was much better than Poland's at the time.

Now as the ref. suggests Poland has them however, DID Poland actually go forward with this modernization program? If so, is it in the OOB?
https://www.armyrecognition.com/mspo_2017_news_official_online_show_daily_coverage/pt-91m2_modernized_version_of_pt-91_main_battle_tank_mspo_2017.html

The next sounds more like it "could've been" ...
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/pt_16.htm

BOTTOMLINE LOOKS LIKE YOU HAVE YOUR ANSWER WITH MALASIA UNIT 500 ON ERA.

I HAVE PERSONAL ISSUES TO ATTEND TO TODAY-HOPE THIS HELPS.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

On this one, the blocks can be seen clearly along the side of the hull so methinks that the drawing is wrong

https://www.armyrecognition.com/images/stories/east_europe/poland/main_battle_tank/pt-91/PT-91_Twardy_main_battle_tank_MBT_Poland_Polish_army_ defense_industry_military_technology_925_001.jpg

[blazejos]

Yes from what I see Don and FASTBOAT TOUGH has right drawing is wrong about PT-91 ERAWA on both sides.

I don't know about massive modernisation of PT-91 to M2 variant looks like that was an demonstrator and probably some of modernisations were implemented in Twardy's tanks in recent years but definitely not a RPG cage in rear

Here you have three PT-91 and T-72
https://en.defence-ua.com/media/contentimages/a2262d9088f0e070.jpg[/QUOTE]

But if you look on that photo this is T-72M1R with Ukrainians additions like RPG cage on rear [taken from T-72AMT modernisation] of tower and Kontak-1 so is possible that they also have since May 2022 some upgraded variant PT-91 Twardy(+)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FftFsz6X0AIGIw7?format=png&name=900x900

Here is about this transfer of tanks in January 2023
https://mil.in.ua/en/news/poland-is-ready-to-transfer-pt-91-twardy-and-leopard-2-tanks-to-ukraine/

Here is also article about T-72M4 modernisation from Czech with have some common systems with PT-91. They also mention there that T-72 Avenger is less expensive than M4 modernisation of T-72M1
https://www.forbes.com/sites/sebastienroblin/2022/10/28/czech-super-t-72m4-tanks-seen-headed-towards-ukraine/?sh=3958b0f53ce7

And here article about Russian T-72B3 Model 2022 which in some way is modernisation and in other simplification to reduce costs they are already send now to battlefield

https://en.defence-ua.com/industries/russia_to_start_the_production_of_the_t_72b3_model _2022_less_sight_more_armor-5592.html

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Don and I got the T-72B3M in the game a few years back for Russia.

I saw some "stuff" concerning the T-72B3 2022 when developing my list. That being said, honestly I couldn't see anything to warrant a new tank added when again we the T-72B3M (Sometimes referred to as the T-72B4.).

Also, you'll find when entered (We didn't have a T-72B3.) A very "ROBUST" T-72B3. I was modeled off Russian "CURRENT" UNIT 045.

I submitted it in the Patch Thread for the Ukraine and recently requested that tank and the T-72B3 be released "as needed" for the player vice being limited by the "capture button", tanks make up a combined total of just under 200 captured units which is significant,
and double the number thus far committed by NATO.

I believe you'll find overall that Don and I are pretty close per our captured lists for the Ukraine. I'm sure I submitted a couple he might not have and vise-versa from Don.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

right now it is as good as it needs to be

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Now we're getting word the Ukraine will receive the M1A2 instead of the M1A1 the "BASS TURDS"!! :D

Well, little does the Govt. we're ready for "Will the real ABRAMS-please Standup!!".

Fortunately, we have it covered BOTH ways and doesn't look like we wasted our time in the process. :cool:

I speak of the M1A2PL/T Export Version for M1A2 as entered last year, and the currently "new" built M1A1 UKR Export Version for M1A1. Which I think we'll see more of in the future.

So, to you Govt. and DOD officials (With all due respect. Gotta protect that retirement pay. ;)) and from one of my favorite movies MP and the HG, "I generally SPIT in your general direction you dirty filthy Englishman." :p

So, we're good and as usual we'll have to wait for "Will the real ABRAMS-please Standup!!"
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_january_2023_global_security_army_ind ustry/us_confirms_that_ukraine_will_receive_the_m1a2_ver sion_of_m1_abrams_tanks.html

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

The hits keep on coming!

First CHALLENGER:
Will arrive in the Ukraine at the end of March or mine-April as no plan is perfect. Ukrainian crews had just arrived according to this, so that makes it last weekend. Now we have a better picture of the training cycle which puts it at 2 months minimum.

That's how long it takes to train crews on the ABRAMS as well which I posted from USA source about three years back. Tank Commanders take longer as do Platoon Leaders. They'll finish that in the Ukraine if they follow the T-55S current field training taken from the T-55S "SLAT" article I posted last week from FORBES.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_january_2023_global_security_army_ind ustry/ukrainian_soldiers_arrive_in_uk_to_be_trained_on_c hallenger_2_tanks_for_delivery_in_march_2023.html

LEOPARD 1A5 NO NOT FROM THEM BUT FROM DENMARK
THIS IS NOT ACTIONABLE AT THIS TIME.
That being said it is something we need to track. The deal has not been reached but is in progress from the Company that bought the tanks from Denmark originally. As the article indicates the German company FFG has the capability to further update these tanks but we don't know if they will, depending on the contract IF Denmark can get the deal done in the first place.

We are looking at Denmark LEOPARD 1A5-DK UNIT 023.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_february_2023_global_security_army_in dustry/denmark_plans_to_provide_ukraine_with_20_refurbish ed_leopard_1a5_tanks.html

GERMANY:
Here's a perfect example why training matters and ALL the countries are doing within their normal training cycles. A simple term-"Return on Investment" in others being able to operate them without them getting blown up in the first week of operations,
AGAIN I would point out how the Ukraine is currently training with the T-55S that's been in country since last October (End of.) .

Countries are giving all they have at great cost. The French for example is currently violating the law concerning how low they can go on military equipment; in this case I'm speaking of CEASAR. This article deals with concern over the LEOPARD
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/germany-calls-for-urgent-replacement-of-leopard-2-tanks/ar-AA170gyR?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=16c76bbe803a431ab179ca94e50a7e84

OMG 4am WTF! :eek:

I'm out!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

POST HAS BEEN EDITED SO YOU CAN ACCESS REF UNDER GERMANY.

[DRG]

I dug into the DK version a bit and realized the upgrades to that tank made it closer to the Icon used for the Canadian C1 than what was being used so that has been changed and it is added to Ukraine but re-nationalized for now

[DRG]

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20230201-germany-says-goodbye-to-ukraine-bound-tanks


Augustdorf (Germany) (AFP) – Germany's defence minister on Wednesday showed off the tanks Berlin is preparing to send to Kyiv, but recognised a "bitter loss" for the under-equipped Bundeswehr.

The arms delivery announced last week by Germany was necessary so the "Ukrainians win the war", Defence Minister Boris Pistorius said on a visit to army barracks in northwestern Augustdorf.

But for the roughly 550 soldiers in the battalion stationed in the town, the loss of 14 of their Leopard 2 tanks would be felt keenly, Pistorius said.

"Their hearts bleed at the idea that these tanks have to be given up, but they understand that is the way it is. Ukraine needs all the support we can give it," he said.

Pistorius said he had "two hearts" in his chest, taking account of the needs of both the German and Ukrainian armies.

Germany, which long-stalled over the decision to send tanks to Ukraine, now aims to deliver them "late March, early April" as part of an alliance of countries willing to supply "between 120 and 140" units, according to officials in Kyiv.

Before they can be employed on the battlefield, Ukrainian soldiers must first learn how to use and maintain some of the most modern tanks in the world.

Their intensive training will begin in the next few days in Germany, Pistorius said.

"It will not be the full training that we have for our soldiers but that's the only way," the minister said.

Wearing a camouflage jacket, Pistorius himself went out in one of the Leopard 2 tanks which criss-crossed the muddy training field.

The Ukrainian soldiers' instruction will take place in at the Bundeswehr's training centre in Munster, northern Germany, where their colleagues are already learning to use the Marder infantry fighting vehicle.

The course will take around six weeks to complete, according to a source close to the German army.

Normally, the training period for the four-person team in the Leopard 2 is much longer. "Six weeks for the pilot, three months for the one who fires the shells and the one who loads them, and three years for the commander," Martin Waltemathe, a spokesman for the Augustdorf brigade, told AFP.

"Driving is pretty simple," according to Waltemathe. Steering the tank is "intuitive like an iPhone", according to another military source.

The vehicle maintenance and repairs can however be more "problematic", per Waltemathe, who holds the rank of captain. Six years are usually needed to become well-versed in its upkeep.

The defence ministry has promised to replace the Ukraine-bound Leopards as quickly as possible. In all, the Bundeswehr has 320 Leopard 2 tanks, the most modern version in use since the 1970s.

Procuring new units "takes time", Pistorius said, but the aim was to get orders in "quickly so that the production can start".

Reequipping the Bundeswehr is a top priority for the defence minister, who was appointed in January.

Chancellor Olaf Scholz in September vowed to transform the country's military into the "best equipped" in Europe. But years of underinvestment have left a huge hill to climb for the Bundeswehr.


A guess on my part but the training times quoted as "normal" may not quite apply if the crews being trained were already previously trained tank crewmen ......that and training knowing that knowledge will need to be applied for real in a few weeks is another factor

[blazejos]

If you read this story look like Poland in June 2022 already put pressure on Swiss government to send some of their Leopard 2 Pz87
that was rejected then https://mil.in.ua/en/news/the-swiss-have-rejected-the-polish-request-to-supply-poland-with-leopard-2a4-tanks/ but this comes back in February 2023 https://mil.in.ua/en/news/switzerland-is-considering-the-possibility-of-transferring-tanks-to-ukraine/

And here about downgraded Russian version of T-80BVM already in production looks like economical sanctions are working in longer terms.
https://en.defence-ua.com/industries/russias_t_80bvm_tanks_are_equipped_with_the_night_ sights_supposed_for_the_t_62m-5539.html

And now article about interesting Belgian company OIP Land Systems which buy 10 years ago many decommissioned Leopard 1 tanks cheaply €37 000 each.

“We are open to all options. But the price must be fair, we are not a charity,” the Head of OIP Land Systems emphasized.

Now he demands 500 000 € for each tanks without any modernisation done during storage :(

https://mil.in.ua/en/news/leopard-1-tanks-to-be-bought-for-ukraine/
https://mil.in.ua/en/news/britain-purchased-46-m113a1-b-for-ukraine/

[blazejos]

Here article about Tank Zoo in Ukrainian army (what they have now and in which version and what they expecting in near future)
https://en.defence-ua.com/analysis/the_tank_zoo_how_many_models_of_tanks_and_their_ve rsions_ukraine_has_and_what_more_is_expected-5572.html

Danish Leopard 1A5-DK for Ukraine also in private hands German Fahrzeugbau Gesellschaft (FFG) company.
https://en.defence-ua.com/industries/the_armed_forces_of_ukraine_can_get_leopard_1a5_ta nks_not_only_from_germany_or_belgium-5639.html
https://mil.in.ua/en/news/germany-plans-to-allow-the-transfer-of-leopard-1-tanks-to-ukraine-media/

And here saga continues with OIP Land systems "we are not a charity,” now 1 million € for each tank.
https://mil.in.ua/en/news/germany-plans-to-allow-the-transfer-of-leopard-1-tanks-to-ukraine-media/
https://en.defence-ua.com/industries/belgian_companies_ask_half_a_million_euros_for_one _leopard_1_in_poor_condition_which_was_purchased_f or_15_thousand-5574.html

Leopards 2 from Poland Ukrainians will start training in a few days
https://mil.in.ua/en/news/ukrainian-tankers-will-start-training-on-leopard-2-in-a-few-days-blaszczak/

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

It's all about LEOPARDS and THEY'RE "EVERYWHERE"!!

Norway says NO WAY to the K2NO The winner of the tank competition is the LEOPARD 2A7. They are slated to start excepting deliveries in 2026, just a little late for us.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_february_2023_global_security_army_in dustry/norway_purchases_54_leopard_2a7_tanks_preferred_to _south_korean_k2_black_panther_mbts.html

Well, it's all come "full circle" since I reported late last Fall that Rheinmetall could sell Ukraine their in-stock LEOPARD 1A5 tanks with Govt. approval. Well, that approval like the above came yesterday.

The "full circle" this means to show that everything we thought would happen isn't going to now and it'll be back up to Rheinmetall once funding is available.

There you have it Rheinmetall is our winner, again!?!

All other options appear too now be dead-again.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_february_2023_global_security_army_in dustry/germany_wants_to_release_leopard_1_tanks_for_ukrai ne.html

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

https://www.army-technology.com/news/netherlands-germany-denmark-leopard1a5-ukraine/

Netherlands, Germany, and Denmark to supply Leopard-1A5 to Ukraine
The three countries will also provide associated ammunition, spare parts, and logistic and training support.

According to a joint statement, delivery of the first Leopard-1A5, which is the modernised version of the Leo-1A1 and predecessor of the Leopard-2, is scheduled to take place in the next few months.


I suspect a more accurate guesstimate of an arrival date will be available before April but up until today I had kept these "inactive" in the UKR OOB. They are now "active" in that OOB 5/123..... for now. It's bound to change as better info comes available but 5/123 falls within "the next few months" timeframe...... admittedly at the low end of it and June or July might be more realistic but for the purposes I am dealing with I have two more months to wait as see what develops

The point is this is no longer just talk. There will be Leo 1's sent

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

I was trying to find where that mine discussion was from early last week but couldn't find it. No matter now here's an interesting read from earlier this evening when taking a break from my submission list work.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ukraine-s-new-anti-tank-tactic-lay-a-minefield-then-scatter-more-mines-from-the-air/ar-AA17pv9l?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=4c6bce589dc447908e4ada774472160a

A brief update (Not really.) for "X-COUNTRY" CHANGED 5 tanks with minor modifications based on data and more importantly to support a missing tank in the OOB which is linked to building a further new tank as the export model for X-COUNTRY. So, 5 modified with 2 new build tanks. Total tanks used for this process beside separate refs would be 9 tanks across 2 OOB's.

Those above are done for now (Just recheck and editing before posting.) and moving onto...

Y-COUNTRY to build an export model from an existing tanks in the OOB this should be easier, and I know I'll be looking at 4 (On the fence about a 5th one.) existing tanks to model this properly plus refs already set. Also, for Y-COUNTRY I'm going to build a new tank I feel has a decent chance to make the game and it won't be a "slouch" when I'm through with it. That'll require only 2 existing tanks to build upon to get there and maybe 1 or 2 from I'm thinking 2 other countries.

Z-COUNTRY, well Don might figure this one out but, it needs to have an existing tank modified because like the STRV-122 (And we built that one.) was built to order and was actually a better tank than the exporters own was, the same situation applies here as well. So, 1 modified, 1 to be built due to a major modernization program with that to be copied into another country that currently has a "stop gap" tank there now. And 1 one more for Z-COUNTRY with a further, more current upgrade based on where it was recently in combat in a country far far away!!:D

Z-A COUNTRY Is getting a new modernized tank as well and happens to be the exporter for Z-COUNTRIES tanks above.

But there's been a whole lot of new tanks that have entered service this past year in other parts of the world. Maybe that's what's above I just :dk: :p :D Not to worry one way or another there're in my MBT file anyway. ;) :cool:

Things are moving along fairly well and I'm happy I decided to proceed without sharing the work before I'm ready to submit it because it leads to distractions that certain of us can do without right now. And this is not meant in a bad way towards anyone.

Bedtime calls with a short week as the daughter asked CINCLANTHOME if I could take Sat. off to spend with them. Amazing that even as adults they can still manage to go through Mom to get their way!?! :shock:

I kid afterall how can I say no!! :angel

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

Two things

One

We are LOOKING INTO the possibility of allowing " Ottawa signatory" nations to lay anti vehicle/tank mines instead a blanket prohibition of all mines as the treaty covered anti personal mines

So vehicles would trip them but not leg units

MAYBE we can set it up......MAYBE. We have some ideas on how but have other things on the go ATM

Two

I have NO IDEA WTF "Y-COUNTRY" "Z-COUNTRY" or "Z-A COUNTRY " is supposed to be hinting at and I don't have the time ( or patience ) to try to puzzle it out

Just saying........a post like that is "counter productive". I DO appreciate the info you provide but this one..... not so much

[DRG]

https://www.euronews.com/2023/02/14/ukrainian-troops-train-on-leopard-2-tanks-in-poland

in part....

Ahead of a highly anticipated Spring offensive by Russia, Ukrainian troops have been training in Poland on Leopard 2 tanks, just weeks after Berlin gave the green light for the German-made tanks to be sent to Ukraine.

On Monday, Poland's President Andrzej Duda attended the training showcase at Swietoszow Military Base in western Poland, where Polish, Norwegian and Canadian instructors have been working with Ukrainian soldiers.

President Duda praised the troops who have been battling the Russian invasion since 24th February 2022, almost a year ago.

He said, "these are very experienced tank drivers, who arrived here straight from the front" in Ukraine."

According to Polish instructor Krzysztof Sieradzki, training normally lasts two months, but given the imminence of Russia's fresh assault, the 105 Ukrainian troops will be completing the course in just one month.

So their training time has been cut in half but these " trainees" are already experienced tank crewmen which is what I expected.

I would be interested to read how quickly they picked up the nuances of driving a Leo compared to their usual ride. How does acceleration forwards and backwards compares as well as their view from the drivers seat

[DRG]

https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_february_2023_global_security_army_in dustry/norway_to_send_comprehensive_leopard_2_tanks_packa ge_to_ukraine.html

Norway to send comprehensive Leopard 2 tanks package to Ukraine

8 Leo 2A4s and up to 4 special-purpose tanks to Ukraine. Norway will also contribute with educating and training Ukrainian tank crews in Poland, along with other allied countries.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Well, I was looking at my favorites list and found this "orphan" from 2015. What made me save this I can't remember but, I suspect it had to do with these two vehicles ZBD-04A armoured infantry fighting vehicle and the AFT-10 anti-tank guided missile weapon station mounted on the chassis of the ZBD-04A.

Anyway, someone might find this of some use as it's going to deleted from my files.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/armies_in_the_world_analysis_focus/list_and_analysis_of_military_equipment_and_armour ed_for_china_army_parade_of_3_september_2015_12908 152.html

It has a tank in it. :p

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[blazejos]

So Abrams for Ukraine are now consider as early delivery.
31 М1А2 from US army depots there is no exact date but earlier that previously announced Abrams for end of 2023.
https://mil.in.ua/en/news/ukraine-can-receive-abrams-earlier-the-transfer-of-tanks-from-the-pentagon-s-depots-is-being-considered/

Germany & Portugal are the only country's which will provide Leopard 2A6 for Ukraine. Portugal government announced that they will provide their tanks in end of March.
https://en.defence-ua.com/news/portugues_mod_named_the_date_when_they_will_send_l eopard_2a6_tanks_to_ukraine-5817.html

And here article about T-64 repairing plant
https://en.defence-ua.com/news/the_czech_republic_to_repair_ukraines_t_64_tanks_t hat_were_produced_only_in_kharkiv-5824.html

[DRG]

Well, it's interesting that it is being reported "the transfer of tanks from the Pentagon’s depots is being considered" as that would imply sending the full armour package UNLESS "the Pentagon" has some "export" versions tucked away someplace.

Once again........"Wait and see"

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

It would not imply that at all. It simply would by-pass the contractors process as I've already posted that in effect said if the tanks aren't available from Army stocks/depots that the process would much more involve the contractors which would delay the process to up to a year or more. OLD NEWS HERE as already posted. Also Ref. 3 below covers this.

DU Armor just like any other layered Armor application it is simply a "Bolt On/Bolt Off" process. The difficulty will be in the handing of the DU Armor application which will make the process a little longer for that number of tanks I'm thinking something around 3-4 months.

For every export tank I've built to this point with more to come when I don't get distracted by suppositional interpretations of sources, I have for the following seen countless similar verbiage for EVERY TANK I've looked at thus far in the export tank process going back to last year. LEOPARD (Pick one of current service as same for others listed.)/ABRAMS/K2/TYPE 10/CHALLENGER 2/LeClerc/MERKAVA/ARJUN and that's just the "Good Guys". So here we go "CLASSIFIED, OF UNKNOWN ORGIN, SECRET, RESTRICTED DATA, UNPUBLISHED, NO INFORMATION AVAILIABLE. "

I should hope for the UMPTEENTH TIME the point has been made.

But if not...
https://time.com/6250099/abrams-tanks-ukraine-biden/
https://news.yahoo.com/us-send-ukraine-more-advanced-200133242.html
(Ukrainian Source.)
https://www.politico.com/news/2023/01/26/us-sends-ukraine-advanced-abrams-tanks-00079648
https://www.manufacturing.net/technology/news/22711369/tank-plant-in-small-ohio-city-plays-big-role-in-ukraine-war
(This is from our TANK FACTORY EVERYTHING I TALKED ABOUT IS RIGHT HERE.)
https://www.newsweek.com/abrams-leopards-challengers-which-tank-will-arrive-ukraine-first-1776927
(PRILIMINARY TIMELINE.)
https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/27/europe/ukraine-war-nato-tanks-analysis-intl-hnk-ml/index.html
(ABRAMS COULD BE MORE THAN A YEAR SAME AS I've ALREADY POSTED PREVIOUSLY.)

At this point I truly don't know what more I can do.

However as not everyone uses DU Armor, I fully support that if the Ukraine gets the LEOPARD A15 WE give them the best version of it from the OOB same for the LEOPARD 2A4/2A5. We did this with the GEPARD.

But for the rest we build them. So currently I have built the Export versions of the K2/LEOPARD 2A7/2A7V Hybrid, LeClerc, (We) ABRAMS M1A2C last year AND already addressed M1A1/T-55S already submitted and almost finished the CHALLENGER 2. Also finished is a NEW tank the K1A2.

THAT'S WHAT'S TO COME WITHOUT ANY FURTHER DISTACTIONS.

Time is getting short I just wish the posts would end or else Andy and Don and some others will never get our work done so all the things that are required to be finished before the Patch Release can be accomplished, we've been there before, I'm thinking June at the rate the information is coming. That's just me.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

In 8 hrs. we're on the road it's been four years since we've been to Spring Training w/COVID/LIMITED SEATING and last year the STRIKE now this year we get back into balance and all is right with the Universe again.

Normalcy is a wonderful thing even something as subtle as this that we've been doing now for over 25yrs. now. We all need this in our lives, and it is good.

But before this I leave with this article that builds upon my last post and provides a reasonable timeline on tanks that will probably not be around for both countries Spring Offensive.

LEOPARD 2A4 will be the first to see combat as it stands now, and some of the tanks are in Ukraine now with the goal filling out a full battalion of them and getting them trained up on combined ops as is occurring with the T-55S battalion that's been at it since last Nov/Dec which is due to conclude shortly and it being sent to the NE of Ukraine in March.

This is also seeming to indicate the LEOPARD 2A5 has for now dropped out of the conversation.

LEOPARD 2A6 Germany isn't ready to discuss any timeline for them at this time.

LEOPARD 1A5 well that's going to take a while as well as most haven't had their engines turned over in more than a decade. The German ones however are in better shape but there's another major issue as well more recently being reported so, "Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition" there better be a whole lot preying going on as there's not much 105mm ammo to go around for those tanks.

Poland is sending 60 PT-91 TWANDY (2 battalions -2.) tanks which should be in Ukrainian hands within the first 2 weeks of March.

MOD indicating CHALLENGER 2 is several months out before they reach the Ukraine.

Since I'm a little tired of feeling like the "bad guy" especially about the next tank I'll just leave the quote from the article...
"As for the 31 Abrams tanks promised by the U.S., they might not arrive in Ukraine this year at all."

"Army Secretary Christine Wormuth told reporters Thursday (23 Feb.) that the delivery timelines could push into well into 2024 at the earliest."

For all the reasons Ref. 3 in my last post discussed.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/first-leopard-2-tanks-arrive-in-ukraine/ar-AA17Up7i?ocid=mailsignout&pc=U591&cvid=a917a71afad047e4a04ec2337eed56bb

At best it's a mixed bag. Those 100's Russian captured tanks and the estimated 1/2+ of the tanks the Ukraine have left will be the ones that'll "hold the line" or start the next Ukrainian Offensive.

We might, though I asked earlier for "release" of the T-72B3 & T-72B3M for buy purposes to maybe reconsider some of those other Russian capture tanks of models the Ukraine doesn't have and "release" as well such as the T-80BV/T-80BVM
for buy purposes. They as I posted already field 1 full battalion of the T-80BVM from back in Mar/Apr 2022 with I believe was the 32nd MECH. Battalion (Which were in a couple of pictures sent for those units in my last submission.) .

I need to hit the rack before my sleep time = my drive time (NOT GOOD!!)

It's Peanuts and Cracker Jacks only for the next 5 day's CINCLANTHOME, BASEBALL and NOT BEING AT WORK FOR YOU FANS...
"IS THIS HEAVEN? NO, IT'S IOWA.", OK FLORIDA for US! :D :p :cool:

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

Pat

There is little point speculating on delivery for anything until it

A/ arrives

or

B/ Mid April when we are doing the final checks

It would be nice if things started being reported arriving but this is our reality ATM. FWIW I do know at least (1) Canadian 2A4 has been put on an air transport to Ukraine ( yeah.....big whoop but there is video of it being loaded and taking off but that could have been footage spliced together

SOMEBODY knows for SURE but it isn't me so all I can do is guesstimate dates until release then next year.......IF there is a next year...... adjust dates for all the incorrect guesstimate.

As frustrating as this all is for us, this is just a game, for Ukraine it's reality.......too many unknowns, too many promises

[zovs66]

This probably known here but I thought it was interesting:

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/ukraine-situation-report-russian-tanks-reverting-to-cold-war-thermal-sights

[DRG]

As it turns out, the unit I have in the OOB for those t-62's matches that Thermal sight equivalent..........

[blazejos]

...... even ERA wasn't installed.



What's the point in adding it.... the other thousand+ wrecks strewn all over the countryside had ERA to little benefit as any decent ATGM is going to blast through them

Not having it may keep the crews from getting "over confident"



EDIT... Sorry Błażej. I thought I was "quoting" but apparently I hit the edit button instead

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

I think the real issue is just their ERA isn't as good as they tried to convince the West it was. Very similar to all the stories that have been put on the web over the last several months about Putin dying and he's still here. Patton had an Army with a lot of tanks in England. The Germans were so concerned they tied down divisions thinking he was the "main show" at Calais, France. He never landed there with his Inflatable Tanks.

In a word Deception.

But a important problem was what several of us uncovered about the the ERA bags that were to filled with materials to provide a non-explosive ERA along the lines of NERA. What was found was they were empty or filled with flour etc. while the money to develop that ERA went elsewhere.

Those crews I'm sure felt confident and found out the hard way they had nothing at long, literally.

Regards,
Pat

[Suhiir]

Those crews I'm sure felt confident and found out the hard way they had nothing at long, literally.
I've seen stuff on cardboard "body armor", wood blocks packaged as plastic explosives and other shenanigans. Seems the corruption evidently inherent in the Russian system is really coming back to bite them since they couldn't bluff or bulldoze their way to victory in a few days/weeks.

[MarkSheppard]

From Twitter

"Great overhead angle of the Polish Leopard 2PL, showing very nicely the extent of the additional armour package on the frontal arc of the turret, and the relatively unique turret bustle shape"

https://i.imgur.com/grDkQsQ.jpg

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Several years ago, I posted I believe it was U.S. Army TRADOC WEG 2011/or 2012 VOL 1 Ground Systems-Documents-Operational Environment and Threat Analysis Directorate (G2 INTEL.).

This document is used for training of leadership to access the types of systems they might encounter on the battlefield.

In trying to find some additional info on a tank(s) at 0400 because I've got some kind of "nasty" that won't let get any sleep, I came across the following...
https://community.apan.org/wg/tradoc-g2/operational-environment-and-threat-analysis-directorate/m/documents/218108
(For VOL 1 Ground Systems.)
https://community.apan.org/wg/tradoc-g2/operational-environment-and-threat-analysis-directorate/m/documents?folderId=59a60660-aec8-e711-9a99-40a8f02263eb&parentId=9dc8033f-0476-e711-a457-40a8f0226517&GalleryPostSort=Subject&SortOrder=Ascending
(This will give you access to besides VOL 1, VOL 2 Air and Air Defense Systems and VOL 3 Naval Systems.)

They are downloadable to your whatever.

For me as I've been saying for a longtime, GALIX is listed as an Auxiliary Weapon (NOT to be confused with Optional Equipment.) for the desert LeClerc with a Daylight/Nighttime Range or 30m - 50m.

I will submit it as so for both the UAE and Jordan.

I'm sure we left it alone for the STRV-122 but changed it for some others. I'm for instance sure that the RC-10 series is also equipped along with French LeClerc.

Happy Hunting!!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

We know most of this but

https://www.jpost.com/international/article-733506

"Since summer 2022, approximately 800 T-62s have been taken from storage and some have received upgraded sighting systems which will highly likely improve their effectiveness at night," said the UK Defense Ministry.


While the T-14 has been marketed as a "super tank," the UK said in January that "11 years in development, the program has been dogged with delays, reduction in planned fleet size, and reports of manufacturing problems.”

Hmmmm can you say " Ajax....."


“Any T-14 deployment is likely to be a high-risk decision for Russia,” due to problems with its engine and other technical issues, as well as further strain on Russia's already strained logistics and supply lines.

The UK Defense Ministry said that Russia had also deployed BTR-50 armored personnel carriers in Ukraine for the first time recently. The BTR-50 was first used by the Soviet Union in 1954.

I will dig around and see what the BTR-50 is being used for. If anyone else comes across anything let me know


https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2023/03/03/the-btr-50p-was-the-soviet-armys-main-fighting-vehicle--in-1954-now-its-back-replacing-russian-losses-in-ukraine/?sh=538f6cce7af0

In late February, photos circulated on social media depicting BTR-50Ps on heavy military flatbed trucks after technicians recovered the vehicles from long-term storage somewhere in Russia.


https://mil.in.ua/en/news/russia-brings-soviet-btr-50-back-to-service/

[Mobhack]

BTR-50s would be fine for protected mobility in the rear areas, like the ex-UK Saxons the Ukranians were gifted. The Ukranians also apparently use the Saxon as an ambulance to take the injured from the initial aid post (in the brigade rear area) up to surgical units at higher level of command.

If anyone really needs them - perhaps put some in the overflow OOB (Red??) for the Russians. Probably only relevant to a scenario designer for "flavour", as who would actually buy one of those past about 1972?. If I'm playing the Soviets in the 60s and 70s, the Egyptians or whatever, I will always thake the BTR-60s as those are fast and have a capable 14.5mm cannon for dealing with "thin tin" APCs and scout cars, whereas the BTR-50 is slooow and usually just has a rifle calibre MG.

[DRG]

If anyone really needs them - perhaps put some in the overflow OOB (Red??) for the Russians. Probably only relevant to a scenario designer for "flavour", as who would actually buy one of those past about 1972?. If I'm playing the Soviets in the 60s and 70s, the Egyptians or whatever, I will always thake the BTR-60s as those are fast and have a capable 14.5mm cannon for dealing with "thin tin" APCs and scout cars, whereas the BTR-50 is slooow and usually just has a rifle calibre MG.


There is no need to add them to Red as they already exist there and in a number of OOB's to the end of 2025 .Cuba for one and Egypt for another. In total, 13 nations still use the BTR-50 to the end of 2025.


Egypt
Syria
Vietnam
Afghanistan
Turkey
Libya
Cuba
Cambodia
Finland
Sudan
Zimbabwe
Yemen
and now Red



In the Red OOB they only ran to 2005 but I just changed that to 2025 but for scenario design, all that's needed to get something like that is to simply change the date of the scenario to when they existed then after buying them re-adjust the date forward.

There are a lot of uses for them that would not need to involve being right at the front line... arty tractors, munitions carriers.... lots of uses

If someone needed one with a turret,use the Polish TOPAS 2AP.

That said, if they do start showing up in quantity in Ukraine I can put them in the Russian OOB but for now "borrow"


EDIT

It occurred to me that a simple solution was available and it was. In this case I got lucky-----The BTR-50s are the ONLY vehicle in the Heavy APC UC in the Russian OOB and the formations that use the BTR-50s only exist during the same time as the units and if there is no formation the game does not offer units for players to buy so it was a simple matter of taking the last BTR-50 and extending the end date to 2025 then building a formation for it from March 2023- Dec 2025

So......... from 01/55-12/78 there are a number of BTR-50 formations and now from March 2023 there are formations that offer them for use in the game again and a unit slot was not used .

Now......... if they upgrade them this idea goes out the window but I am betting not

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

As I won't be going to work today (And likely tomorrow as well.) so I can see the :sick: "Good Dr." :sick:, I came across this article which should act as a reminder to all you have to go beyond the "lead/tagline" or else "you might be putting the cart before the horse" if you read the below.
"Over time, Taiwan began to modernize its military and replace older equipment with newer, more advanced systems. As a result, the M60A3 tanks were gradually phased out of service in the early 2000s and replaced by newer main battle tanks, such as the M1A2 Abrams and the CM-11 Brave Tiger. However, some M60A3 tanks are still used for training and ceremonial purposes."

Well, that was news to me. Unless with the distraction of the Ukrainian War we snuck them into Taiwan.

We didn't the article is about replacing the engines with new ones and the M60A3 is still in operational service.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_march_2023_global_security_army_indus try/renk_america_to_upgrade_taiwan_army_old_m60a3_tank s_with_1_000hp_engines.html

From SIPRI
108 M-1A2 Abrams tank 2019 M-1A2T version; delivery planned 2023-2026.

Also, this of many...
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/taiwan-to-upgrade-m60a3-main-battle-tanks

I don't know where this stands as of now, but I've got to get a handle on this "CRUD" and clear my worklist first.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[Suhiir]

As someone said elsewhere.
The Tank you need depends almost entirely on your expected opposition.
If your opponent has no armor at all an FT-17 is good enough.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

The T-62's I'd already posted on about three months ago but had nothing I don't BELIEVE on the BTR-50.

I came across this just a few minutes ago to give credence to the thought they are in Ukraine. But I understand Don's plan.

I don't even think the AI would buy them from what I've seen since I started playing this game, outside of its original service dates.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_march_2023_global_security_army_indus try/russian_army_replenishing_armored_vehicle_losses_w ith_old_t-62_tanks_and_btr-50_apcs.html

UK sending more CHALLENGER 2 tanks to Ukraine. The export version is ready. A nice add on is the discussion comparing it to the T-80BV. I don't know why they just didn't give them 3 more to fill it out to a full Ukrainian tank battalion?
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_march_2023_global_security_army_indus try/uk_to_donate_14_additional_challenger_2_tanks_to_u kraine.html

RELATED...
UK Training continues I would expect early April to completed as long as there are no issues.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_march_2023_global_security_army_indus try/british_army_keeps_training_ukrainian_soldiers_on_ challenger_2_tanks.html

Rheinmetall has finalized their list of what will send the Ukraine these will be near to long before being fully realized. but we have numbers now.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_march_2023_global_security_army_indus try/germany_to_provide_ukraine_with_250_armored_vehicl e_including_100_marder_ifvs_and_150_leopard_tanks. html

Is anyone else seeing a pattern developing here with these foreign tanks?

What about those T-55S tanks how are they training them?
They're being trained as a Battalion to conduct combined operations within a Brigade.

All you have to do is like at the numbers of what's coming and already on the web. One Battalion of each for the LEOPARDS and ABRAMS.

Just a cautionary tale is all this is. The T-55S training started in NOV 2022 on expect it to be completed by MAR 2023.

We should all fully understand why they're not (Or shouldn't. ) going to send a Platoon here or there.

If not turn in your SPMBT Club Card and you'll be buying drinks for us all for a year before you get your "Club Card" back, CRAP CINCLANTFLEET just saw this last!!!! :doh:

Anyway, since I now have some explaining to do and I'll just blame it on the shots I received in "each cheek" late this afternoon making me feel a little delirious (I experienced a sudden feeling of being in NASA centrifuge. :cool:) that's the plan. ;)

After 9pm feeling burnt out so the final TWO words are "Battlefield Logistics" and I shouldn't point out the larger implications of them.

We'll just have to see how the "chips fall" with the Ukraine thinking of a tactical withdrawal from Bakhmut this will buy the Ukraine more time and strengthen their lines and if only 1/2 the stories of Russian losses are true it'll take them sometime to regroup.

The "Battle of Ukraine" is really being fought at places similar to or there Salisbury Plain, Schweinfurt, École de cavalerie, Field Marshal Rommel Barracks, Augustdorf, Drawsko Pomorskie Training Area and others. .

Obviously, those already in the fight are fighting for their country but you have to believe that they also know they are fighting for time until more of those troops in fields far from home can get back home to fight in their own fields.

Those are my final words FINALLY besides I got some "xxplaining" to do to CINCLANTHOME about the "club thing" have a good night!!

GOT SOME Jeremy Clarkson "FARM 2" to watch.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

A bit off topic for this thread but all the talk about the BTR-50 I took a look at the icon and it dated back to a transition time in how I built Icons so I redid the BTR-50's and OT-62s'

A sample of the new ones at 3x normal

https://i.imgur.com/7rHE14O.png

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

No worries.

I meant to add to my last above an update from Oryx, which I just rechecked a couple of minutes ago.

Though I noted increases in T-64's and almost all of the captured tanks I submitted in my first submission and other types listed APC's etc., thus far nothing is showing for the BTR-50 at this time.

They do their best to update the site very day if they can get to those areas but with the heavy fighting around Bakhmut that might be tough though the Russians have and are suffering heavy armor loses at this time as being heavily reported on.

The best quick check help I can offer is to write down and copy the RED breakdown just above the individual categories. Todays...
Russia - 9567, of which: destroyed: 6114, damaged: 273, abandoned: 381, captured: 2799

Subgroup Tanks...
Tanks (1819, of which destroyed: 1079, damaged: 87, abandoned: 103, captured: 550)

AS REMINDER THESE GUYS ARE MORE CONSERVATIVE THAN MANY I'VE SEEN. IF A CERTAIN MOD HAS NO PROBLEM WITH THEM. WELL, YOU SEE WHERE I'M GOING...

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[MarkSheppard]

https://www.barrons.com/news/poland-says-latest-10-leopard-tanks-delivered-to-ukraine-51a92aec

Poland on Thursday said it had delivered to Ukraine the additional 10 Leopard 2A4 tanks it had promised, while allies would send theirs shortly.

"We're talking about a battalion of heavy tanks which, in the case of Poland's share, have already been delivered and, in the case of our allies, they will be delivered to Ukraine very soon," Defence Minister Mariusz Blaszczak told reporters.

Warsaw had promised to ship a total of 14 German-made Leopard 2 heavy tanks to Kyiv.

The first four were delivered in late February, on the first anniversary of Russia's offensive in Ukraine.

Blaszczak said the tanks to follow from allied countries include eight from Canada, eight from Norway and at least six from Spain.

"I spoke to Spanish Defence Minister Margarita Robles. There may be four additional ones," Blaszczak said.

Poland has been spearheading efforts to send the modern Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine.

Germany initially resisted the pressure from allies to authorise the move but early this year, Berlin agreed to send its own Leopards and greenlighted the deliveries from other countries.

Blaszczak also said Poland would set up a service hub for the battle tanks used in Ukraine.

"We are proceeding with a hub that will be responsible for servicing and fixing the tanks that have been delivered to Ukraine or will be soon," he said.

He added that he had raised the issue in talks with his German counterpart, Boris Pistorius.

"The challenge is spare parts for these tanks. Twenty years ago they stopped producing these parts but we are prepared to resume production -- of course in cooperation with the Germans," he said.

amj/gil

I think part of the reason for the delay in sending the tanks now that I think about it, was "standardizing" all the Leopard 2A4's donated to a "Leopard 2A4-U" spec; i.e. everything is labelled the same in every tank, and all the niggling national differences over the years have been removed as much as possible.

[blazejos]

Here you have opinions about Leopard 2A4 and 2A6 by Ukrainians itself from times of training opinions of tankers.

https://en.defence-ua.com/events/ukrainian_tankman_told_about_the_leopard_2_tank_sn iper_gun_reverse_speed_and_other_advantages-6015.html

Pakistani T-80UD are seriously considered to be send to Ukraine
https://en.defence-ua.com/news/pakistan_can_transfer_t_80ud_tanks_to_ukraine_but_ there_is_a_condition-6030.html

Article about Russian T-80BVM which are now produced without important system Sosna-U
https://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and_tech/russians_showed_the_current_condition_of_their_t_8 0bvm_tanks-5849.html

More about BTR-50 T-62 etc. archaic vehicles already used on front-linehttps://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and_tech/the_russians_already_redeploying_old_btr_50_apcs_t o_the_frontline_the_next_turn_for_t_34_tanks_to_em erge_there-5852.html

[blazejos]

Ukraine is also producting simpliefied tanks

Here about old Soviet Т-72А and T-72M1 modernized in Ukraine to T-72AMT like standard but in reality they are simplified

https://mil.in.ua/en/news/ukraine-produces-a-simplified-version-of-t-72-tanks/

Here Russian new-old T-62 after modernisation
https://mil.in.ua/en/news/russia-shows-modernization-of-t-62-tanks/

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

It appears that we have an early look at what those 800 modernized T-62M/MV tanks look like. Improvements include a new ERA Pkg. (Kontact-5(?)), communications, TI (GSR (?) and general overhaul (Mechanical and Electrical.).

I will assume the top picture and bottom show one of the "new" tanks as are clearly T-62's.

Why pay for an ARMATA when you can probably but at least 10 or more of these tanks?
https://www.armyrecognition.com/ukraine_-_russia_conflict_war_2022/russia_launches_modernization_of_800_t-62m_and_t-62mv_tanks_for_deployment_in_ukraine.html

Lunch and Work have a good day.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

This isn't about being right or wrong as much as for me at the time it was about the better platform making more sense to me than its predecessor in the combat environment in the Ukraine.

This conversation was had a couple of months back when "everything" was on the table and the Ukraine was getting this or that sooner or later etc. etc.

Now I can say that France is indeed sending the Ukraine the much better AMC-10RCR.

The article shows a couple pictures showing Ukrainian troops training in them at an undisclosed location in France. Note the comment "overlayed" on the picture at LEFT.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_march_2023_global_security_army_indus try/france_to_deliver_ukraine_with_amx-10rcr_modernized_version_of_amx-10rc_anti-tank_armored_vehicle.html

Still on the mend so off to bed to get ready for "another day at the office" or something like that anyway. ;)

EDIT: I ALMOST MADE IT! :doh:

Apparently the PT-91 TWARDY has entered service with the Ukrainian Army.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/ukraine_-_russia_conflict_war_2022/pt-91_twardy_tanks_donated_by_poland_are_now_in_servi ce_with_ukrainian_army.html

Obviously CINCLANTHOME has installed the following device on my PC to ensure I'm getting my 8 hrs. down it's easier to just show you...
:nono: :tough: :typing: :pc: :fire: :ahh:

Going to bed now that was God awful rough!?! I didn't know she knew that much about computers! :D

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

As I'm taking some time off from work to recoup and clear my mind, I'm currently building or modifying a tank a day. Thankfully that work is coming to a close so there will hopefully be another submission for the next patch. I'm almost there.

In the meantime, here's some news...

Taiwan no real surprise for me here in that every old is still new there. The M60A3 will be getting new engines which apparently has already started to a limited degree. What I did find as a surprise though, I've seen it a couple of times in the past is, here it is again from another different source dated today! From the article...
"Moreover, for Taiwan, the M60A3 is not the oldest vehicle, since the Armed Forces of Taiwan also operate the CM-11 Brave Tiger (450 units in service). And this vehicle is a hybrid of the M60 chassis and the turret from the M48 Patton, but with a fire control system from the M1 Abrams. In 2017, it was reported that Taiwan would upgrade all of these machines."

FCS from M1 ABRAMS. :shock:

I don't believe if China should ever get a foothold in Taiwan that some tanks (Medium-VT-4A) aren't going to be landed. They already operate AMPHIB "tanks" that'll definitely hit the beaches.
https://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and_tech/taiwan_to_operate_the_m60_tanks_even_after_2030_an d_there_is_a_simple_explanation_for_this-6108.html

Pakistan sending them back home? Could be. They are offering to send the Ukraine 40 (Of 315.) T-80UD tanks that the Ukraine built for them initially. They just need "a little help" from some Western partners first. If done, they'll be battle ready.

I've stated the Western tanks will be a big help but some of those tanks will be almost a year out from fielding and probably a couple of years out to meet the overall goal of 300 tanks sent from all nations.

We must face the reality that their tanks and Soviet era tanks along with the 100"s of more "modern" captured Russian tanks will remain the "backbone" of the Ukrainian Armor for the foreseeable future.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_march_2023_global_security_army_indus try/pakistan_offers_to_transfer_44_t-80ud_tanks_to_ukraine_in_exchange_of_financial_*** istance.html

DENMARK I'll believe it when I see it. That being said I feel mid to late Summer is more likely to occur after reviewing several open-source documents and pictures of these tanks-what a mess!!

One example cited several times is that most of the engines haven't been turned over in ten years or more!!! Complete overhaul if lucky at best or full replacement at worst.

I purpose we use the best model possible and leave at that. Thus far what that means to me is that the Leopard 1A5DK is the one to fit the bill. First so far it'll be the most numerous versions of the type to be sent. But more importantly is Second is that Denmark (Here we go again with a SPEC built tank.) had increased the protection of these tanks against HEAT and AT weapons beyond the German version.

I haven't had the chance to 1. Verify that this was entered as such for the 1A5DK. 2. Is the latest German version been so modernized?

But those are our only viable options as I see it now.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_march_2023_global_security_army_indus try/denmark_confirms_that_100_leopard_1a5_tanks_for_uk raine_will_be_ready_in_the_spring.html

Sweden Well more ARCHERs to come but only 10 STRV-122 tanks which =2/4 tank platoons in the Ukrainian Army with 1 spare each.

I've had to modify these tanks for Sweden based on newer information gathered. It's done and just checking my notes they require just one change. I've from an earlier Post w/? , I've identified the export version as well.

But unlike most including for instance the LEOPARD 2A6 where to minimize the headaches we as above can choose to pick the "best one" or one in the "middle" with the STRV-122 it's all in by itself, and here we go again it was SPEC built and better than the German version and folks that's in all the refs.
Besides 50 CV90's is a DAM good deal.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_march_2023_global_security_army_indus try/sweden_agrees_donation_to_ukraine_of_8_archer_155m m_howitzers_and_10_leopard_2_stridsvagn_122_tanks. html

A little tired right now, the rest can wait.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[Suhiir]

I don't believe if China should ever get a foothold in Taiwan that some tanks (Medium-VT-4A) aren't going to be landed. They already operate AMPHIB "tanks" that'll definitely hit the beaches.

Sounds like the the Taiwanese General Staff has a good appreciation of their situation. The mainland is close enough at least some of the PRC amphibious forces can come directly from there and there's no way anything that can float has enough armor to handle a 105mm.

The PRC navy is very much dedicated to the anti-ship role so it's shore bombardment capability is pretty limited. 100 miles (the narrowest width of the Taiwan Straight) is a "bit" much for artillery support from the mainland. Even the PRC doesn't have enough missiles to use them for pre-invasion shore bombardment.

Upgrading their armor, of all types, with an Abrams fire control system and thermal vision means getting ashore in the first place is going to be a nightmare for the PRC.

[Aeraaa]

Here you have opinions about Leopard 2A4 and 2A6 by Ukrainians itself from times of training opinions of tankers.

https://en.defence-ua.com/events/ukrainian_tankman_told_about_the_leopard_2_tank_sn iper_gun_reverse_speed_and_other_advantages-6015.html

Pakistani T-80UD are seriously considered to be send to Ukraine
https://en.defence-ua.com/news/pakistan_can_transfer_t_80ud_tanks_to_ukraine_but_ there_is_a_condition-6030.html

Article about Russian T-80BVM which are now produced without important system Sosna-U
https://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and_tech/russians_showed_the_current_condition_of_their_t_8 0bvm_tanks-5849.html

More about BTR-50 T-62 etc. archaic vehicles already used on front-linehttps://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and_tech/the_russians_already_redeploying_old_btr_50_apcs_t o_the_frontline_the_next_turn_for_t_34_tanks_to_em erge_there-5852.html

From the article about Leo2 gun:

Martyniuk name the tank gun a "sniper rifle" with a range of up to 4 km at night and up to 5 km during the day

Oh yeah, this baby has actually hit targets at 5.8 KMs!

[blazejos]

This article may be intresting because is about a stokpiles of old military tanks and vehicles which Russia may potentially use on frontline:

https://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and_tech/what_else_beside_t_62_and_btr_50_russia_can_pull_o ut_from_its_half_century_old_stocks-6117.html

T-55 in variant T-55M5
ZSU-57-2 which were still formally in service in 2010
ASU-85 are still in storage

And this article is an analisys of devices found inside T-90M Proryv
https://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and_tech/ukraines_ministry_of_defense_analyzed_the_componen ts_of_the_t_90m_proryv_from_rusty_microcircuits_to _the_questionable_ammunition_storage_solution-6086.html

"Tractor Trops" again in use after Kiev defense now 2023
https://en.defence-ua.com/analysis/why_the_weather_is_still_unfavorable_for_ukraines_ counteroffensive_we_show_on_the_example_of_kirpi_a nd_tractor_troops-6094.html

T-62 become more&more common Russian tank on frontlines
https://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and_tech/russias_t_62s_in_donetsk_the_number_of_these_tanks _is_increasing-6118.html

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

THIS IS A TEST/THIS IS A TEST

Something I'm working on, WANT I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW IS, ARE ALL THREE REFERENCES WORKING/ARE THEY COMING UP PROPERLY?

PLEASE LET ME KNOW WHICH IF ANY ISN'T WORKING. HOPING FOR AROUND 10 RESPONCES OR SO COVER OS's ETC.

UAE (GULF STATES)/ADD/LeClerc AZUR/START 2012/COPY REVISED UNIT 028/ADD/ROW MG XXX/ERA
HS 15 HR 10 TS 15 TR 12 TOP 10/SLAT ARMOR ENGINE COMPARTMENT SIDES. //
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product3496.html
Army Guide (army-guide.com)
Army Guide (army-guide.com)

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

For me only #1 works. Looks like a recent Win10 update reconfigured my WORD 13 "Paste Options".

Will take results.

THANKS!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[whdonnelly]

Only the 1st one is showing as a link

[DRG]

Same... only the first one

[Suhiir]

Same ... ONLY the first link works.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

THANK YOU ALL FOR ANSWERING! WON'T NEED ANYMORE THANK YOU.

Just confirms last update moved/repositioned my Paste options. A word (Similar to a bird's name. ;)) comes to mind right now :D for those MS guys.

Pumped out some work I just finished this will be my most productive year since around the 2018/2019 Campaign.

This makes Don always very happy when I participate. :cool:

All I will say is there will be some tanks from another part of the world.

Gotta get some sleep. Have a good day!

Thanks Again!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[blazejos]

During deliveries of Leopard 2 Ukrainians also recived an Enginering repairing vehicles here is that in this articles:

Bergepanzer 2 & NM189 Ingeniørpanservogn from Norway
https://mil.in.ua/en/news/norway-delivers-armored-vehicles-to-ukraine/
https://mil.in.ua/en/news/norway-delivers-armored-vehicles-to-ukraine/
https://en.defence-ua.com/news/ukraine_receives_leopard_2_battle_tanks_and_someth ing_also_from_norway-6132.html

Canada's Bergepanzer 3
https://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and_tech/canadas_bergepanzer_3_armored_recovery_vehicle_is_ important_for_future_ukraines_armed_forces_counter offensive-6124.html

They also have some big robotic Mine clearing vehicles like Croatian MV-4/MV-10
https://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and_tech/kherson_rescuers_get_croatian_mv_4_and_mv_10_eod_r obotic_systems-6123.html
Slovakia Bozena 5
https://defence-ua.com/army_and_war/slovachchina_vidpravit_v_ukrajinu_sistemi_rozminuv annja_ta_medichni_materiali-6143.html

Russia has also Uran-6 which is an copy of Croatian MV-4
https://en.defence-ua.com/news/russian_copy_of_croatian_mv_4_robot_uran_6_mine_cl earing_platform_blew_up_on_anti_tank_mine-4379.html

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

How it all works:

Ukraine: DOD trying to get M1A1 ABRAMS to Ukraine sometime in the Fall. I had already provided "numbers" in a Post I believe in this Thread for the Export version.

I can already foresee some people saying "Oh they're coming straight out of USA/USMC stocks.

Well, I've had this armor discussion several times out here and I don't intend to do so again-this time because I have General who'll do it for me.

From the ref...
"On March 21, the U.S. Defense Department published that, in January 2023, 31 M1A2 Abrams tanks would be delivered to Ukraine, but officials had speculated it would take about a year to make that happen. Now, they say, the U.S. will instead send M1A1 Abrams tanks from refurbished hulls already in U.S. inventory, and the delivery will be in the fall — faster than what was initially expected. C. Todd Lopez reports."

"Since we've made this announcement, we've been committed to exploring options to deliver the armored capability as quickly as possible," Pentagon Press Secretary Air Force Brig. Gen. Pat Ryder said during a briefing today. "

"In January, the initial plan was that the United States would use funds from the Ukraine Security Assistance Initiative to procure new tanks from the manufacturer. Now, Ryder said, excess hulls already in U.S. inventory will instead be refurbished and refitted to create M1A1 Abrams main battle tanks that can be sent to Ukraine more quickly in order to meet their needs."
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_march_2023_global_security_army_indus try/ukrainian_army_to_receive_m1a1_abrams_tanks_by_fal l_2023.html

No, DU Armor plain and simple.

I think in my first submission concerning the removal of TROPHY from USMC tanks a couple of the refs showed the first stop they made after a depot in California to start the "stripping" down process they all go to the Lima Tank Depot in Ohio. Some of what you're about to see I've already spoken of starting with the first. In the context of time ...

"And the development of tanks for Ukraine would also have to be squeezed in between the current contracts for foreign sales, which include 250 of the newest versions for Poland and about 75 for Australia."
These are built in game last year M1A2PL, M1A2T and sorry to say we won't see the Australian one until around 2028.

That is "Army Secretary Christine Wormuth..."

"As she walked the production lanes in the 25-acre building, Wormuth got to see the newest version of the Abrams as it is transformed from an empty steel hull into a shiny, newly painted tank — a process that takes 18 to 24 months. The U.S. doesn't build new tanks from scratch. It has a fleet of about 2,500 Abrams, and takes older tanks, tears them down and uses the empty hull as a starting point to build a new one. Some hulls have been refurbished multiple times."

I have used the term many times from Army sources called "RESET".
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/ohio/articles/2023-02-17/tank-plant-in-small-ohio-city-plays-big-role-in-ukraine-war

As you will see if you take the time to read this WHOLE article which not only talks about DU Armor but also other Classified Armor Packages which you can easily infer to other countries that export advanced tanks concerning their own classified armor packages as well.
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/m1-abrams-tanks-in-u-s-inventory-have-armor-too-secret-to-send-to-ukraine
(FROM JAN 25, 2023 1:10 PM)

Had a very busy morning and I'm sure I have at least 1 email waiting on me. :D

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[MarkSheppard]

Russians are now supposedly removing T-54/55 from Siberian depots. A train has been seen with them.

Funny thing is...they declared or said that all the T-55/54 were scrapped about 20 years ago...

So possibility of seeing T-54 Obr.2023 :eek:

[whdonnelly]

Maybe they will buy North Korean tanks, so we can finally see the clash of North vs South Korean armor. On the steppes of Europe.

[MarkSheppard]

Maybe they will buy North Korean tanks, so we can finally see the clash of North vs South Korean armor. On the steppes of Europe.

I've actually seen serious speculation that North Korea MIGHT sell Russia T-62s and it's T-62 clone (Ch'ŏnma-ho).

[DRG]

Russians are now supposedly removing T-54/55 from Siberian depots. A train has been seen with them.

Funny thing is...they declared or said that all the T-55/54 were scrapped about 20 years ago...

So possibility of seeing T-54 Obr.2023 :eek:

I guess we wait and see but in the meantime, I have renamed the T-62 formations I added for 2022 from Reserve T-62 - to Reserve Tank .

[blazejos]

This refurbished T-55 already exists and was propsed some time ago is know as T-55M5

https://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and_tech/what_else_beside_t_62_and_btr_50_russia_can_pull_o ut_from_its_half_century_old_stocks-6117.html

https://en.defence-ua.com/media/contentimages/56964172efd88197.jpeg

here about this transported T-55
https://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and_tech/russia_removes_soviet_t_5455_tanks_from_storage_tr ansfers_them_to_ukraine-6156.html

And here about other "modernized" MBT T-62M
https://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and_tech/russians_say_they_have_tanks_better_than_m1a2_abra ms_and_its_hilarious-6160.html

List of this all Dad's army equipment spoted so far
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2023/03/dads-army-list-of-russian-army.html

[DRG]

There is absolutely NO WAY to know what it is they are going to pull out of storage and we could go round and round speculating and it's only good for wasting time. I am still playing " wait and see " and I am NOT committing to anything but the last "top of the line" T-55 version and that all could change in an instant.

It won't get really interesting until they commit the Cossack cavalry. Nothing like a good old sabre charge to signal you've hit rock bottom

I see a few more of Putins "allies" have been found dead. Guessing nobody who said this was a great idea and it will all be over in a week or two are still breathing

Karma.......

[blazejos]

This is a short movie 5min from 2008 movie called Admiral. Here we can see how rock buttom looks like during Civil war. Now this is sad when we think how this human wave strategy is used 100 years after this events ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWPbLTSD01o

Between actually situation and rock bottom are still
Ceremonial T-34 & Su-100

https://en.defence-ua.com/media/contentimages/5fe6259a6cb50b7c.jpg

https://defence-ua.com/media/contentimages/1bb641b0d7e243fa.jpg

IS-3 & T10 from museums
https://defence-ua.com/media/illustration/articles/4ca641b0398ca8cb.jpg

But propably you have right actual Russia is doomed like White army hundreds years ago whatever museum equipment they will take out from storages.

[DRG]

https://en.defence-ua.com/media/contentimages/56964172efd88197.jpeg



It's not really clear to me ( eyes are not what they once were.......)but does that T-55 show advanced ERA panels in the front armour ?


Found this quote


T-55M5 (Ob'yekt 155M5) – This modernization kit adds convex explosive reactive armour "Kontakt-5" panels around turret front, armour panel on glacis plate, a longer hull, a new style fire control equipment with stabilized TVK-3 and TKN-1SM sights for the gunner and commander, an improved V-55U engine (or V-46-5M) and a main gun stabilization system. The original 100 mm D-10T2S gun is maintained. Combat weight is less than 40 tonnes.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

In short, I believe an armor application doesn't look standard ERA type it seems "too flat" but I certainly can see the lines of tiles on this tank I'm thinking applique armor tiles.

Did some further digging, Look at the following under Protection.
https://weaponsystems.net/system/630-T-55
(All steel.)

https://weaponsystems.net/system/631-T-55AM
(First mention-Steel plus applique armor)

https://weaponsystems.net/system/632-T-55AMV
(Armor type Steel plus ERA, rubber skirts ERA
Kontakt-1 on glacis, hull sides and turret)

So based on the above, the T-55 posted is certainly a T-55AM tank.

As the above T-55AMV will show all variants listed with that tank had the same additional armor as I listed under the entry in the ( ) .

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[blazejos]

T-55M5 has an reactive armour on front look on this photos
https://www.militaryimages.net/media/t-55m5.32045/

This tank was in reality prepared by Russian tanks industry in 2001 for Third World users of T-55 and never intended for their army but now when they use whatever they can is possible that also such T-55 will be used on frontline.

https://karopka.ru/community/user/9858/?MODEL=289594

https://karopka.ru/upload/resize_cache/iblock/df8/900_600_1/photo_3_1347099509.jpg

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Alight T-55M in upgraded version of the T-55AMV. See the below and scroll down the Variants section and see what it says about the BOTH above.
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/t55.htm

Never mind I'll do it.

"T-55AMV fitted with add-on explosive reactive armor and new fire control system. It is capable of launching anti-tank guided missiles in the same manner as ordinary projectiles. The missile has a range of 4 000 m at daytime and 1 200 m at night. It penetrates 550 mm of rolled homogenous armor. It entered service in 1985.

T-55M upgraded version fitted with add-on composite armor and rubber side skirts. The gun is fitted with a thermal sleeve. This tank entered service in 1983. " That means Russian.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[blazejos]

This T-55M5&T-55M6 are actually a ultimate retrofiting of old T-55 here acording to Tank Encyklopedia


T-55M5
This is an “upgrade kit” aimed for export to all previous T-55/T-55A customers. This package includes “Kontakt-5” ERA panels, longer chassis, stabilized TVK-3 and TKN-1SM sights, upgraded main gun stabilization system for the 100 mm (3.94 in) D-10T2S, and the new V-55U engine or V-46-5M as an option for more mobility. The combat weight was less than 40 tons.

T-55M6
The latest upgrade, both for the Russian army and export, includes a longer chassis with six roadwheels per side, a completely overhauled turret with the 2A46M 125 mm (4.92 in) main gun and autoloader from the T-72B, V-46-5M engine and protection upgraded to the T-80U level. As an option, it could receive the 1A40-1 fire control system and ATGM system 9K120 “Svir” (from the T-72B), or A42 and 9K119 “Refleks” (from the T-80U).

https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar/ussr/soviet_t-55.php

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

I use that source as well and it's a good one. I would suggest you count the road wheels from the pictures you originally submitted.

I'm counting six road wheels unless I'm missing something here that would make this tank the T-55M6.

I'm referring to your Posts 1581 & 1584

"T-55M6
The latest upgrade, both for the Russian army and export, includes a longer chassis with six roadwheels per side, a completely overhauled turret with the 2A46M 125 mm (4.92 in) main gun and autoloader from the T-72B, V-46-5M engine and protection upgraded to the T-80U level. As an option, it could receive the 1A40-1 fire control system and ATGM system 9K120 “Svir” (from the T-72B), or A42 and 9K119 “Refleks” (from the T-80U)."

T-55M6
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJdFzggX7qA
(Sure, looks like your tank from those posts mentioned just above.)

Seen a couple of sites indicate it has a turret off a T-72 and this is very possible note the extended rear turret and bustle and the fact it's also different from the T-55M5 picture you have in Post 1586.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

Looks like 6 to me as well but how many they might have of these built and what exactly might end up in Ukraine is, at this time, nothing but speculation but sometimes that is all we have and right now this is my best WAG for each

https://i.imgur.com/aPI37Re.png

I will probably put both Icons in the SHPs and wait and see what happens

[blazejos]

Just found that also Ukraine is a country which developed his own retrofited T-55 for export market in third world. T-55AGM is possible that they will also like Russia in some time will produce them for themselfs. Even if now they are only prototypes
https://merkutglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/T-55AGM-1200x683.jpg

https://www.the-blueprints.com/blueprints-depot-restricted/tanks/tanks-t/t_55agm-80074.jpg

https://en.topwar.ru/1281-varianty-modernizacii-tanka-t-55.html

[DRG]

German Leopard 2 tanks have reached Ukraine

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/german-leopard-2-tanks-have-reached-ukraine-security-source-2023-03-27/

BERLIN, March 27 (Reuters) - The 18 Leopard 2 battle tanks pledged by Germany to support Ukraine in its war against Russia have arrived in Ukraine, the German Defence Ministry said on Monday.

Besides the 18 tanks, 40 German Marder infantry fighting vehicles, and two armoured recovery vehicles had also reached Ukraine, a security source said.

[blazejos]

T-34 may be sent to front units

That being said, the prospect of T-34-85 going to the Ukrainian frontlines nowadays straight after T-54 or even T-10 is a real possibility, even if they will play just an "ideological" role for raising morals of the russian soldiers in the vanguard.

https://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and_tech/the_russian_armys_been_preparing_t_34_85_tank_crew s_since_2021_there_is_even_a_separate_battalion_in _the_kantemir_division-6205.html

[DRG]

:doh:

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

About the Ukraine's tank factory, as I already reported that got blown up around the 2nd of March.
https://morozov.com.ua/en/bronetankovaya-tehnika-i-vooruzhenie/
(I used this extensively when I stated on the OPLOT-M and other tank related purposes. So, if anyone gets through, please let me know been trying since 2 weeks into the war to connect.)
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2022/03/30/russia-attacked-ukraines-tank-plant-but-that-wont-stop-the-ukrainians-from-repairing-their-tanks/?sh=1072a3a65d31
https://www.fpri.org/article/2022/09/ukraines-defense-industry-and-the-prospect-of-a-long-war/
https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/a-steel-plant-ready-for-war-shows-hit-to-ukraine-s-economy-1.6330432
(Sounds like the Germans in WWII.)

This again is why those Russian captured tanks have been so important as it pertains to the above.

I saw that about that concerning the T-34/85 might as well bring back their SU-100 tanks they apparently have a large supply of also.

Russia has about a 4:1 manpower advantage over the Ukraine. In ignoring the above but allowing for the T-54/T-55 and T-62 it won't be an advantage that'll be long lived.

I have other news:

Czech Republic- Are wrapping up accelerated Operational testing of the about 4 LEOPARD 2A4 tanks they have to date. Based on delivery dates currently and with Operational Unit training yet to come they should reach FOC by late this year or I would think no later than JAN 2024.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_march_2023_global_security_army_indus try/czech_army_finalizes_military_trials_of_leopard_2a 4_tank_for_official_adoption.html

Turkey -How long have I been tracking this next tank, I'm thinking almost as long as the ARJUN with one big difference the ARJUN got fielded. In the submission just posted yesterday I talked about the delays with the South Korean K2 and K2 PIP (Which doesn't look good either.) in this case it's what accelerated the production of the K1A2 by 3 years (Completed Production by DEC 2023) .

The first 2 above as per the write up, occurred twice in 2014 and 2018 with engine and transmission failures.

They shared the same fate that has plagued the ALTAY first with the loss of the German/Austrian Powerpack (Engine and Transmission etc.) with a period of stagnation as they had to design from scratch their own Powerpack and I'm on record as saying they wouldn't succeed in getting there with a 1500hp System and they didn't.

South Korea having fixed their issues and with an ever more hostile Russia, Turkey turned to the South Korea to supply the Powerpack, I know I posted this, and I believe the contracts got signed this past DEC. That's the Basic Background story.

So, here's the current situation...

For the second or third time Turkey has just received the first 2 tanks to start Operational Tests.

"the first Turkish-made New Altay Main Battle Tanks (MBTs) will be delivered to the Turkish Armed Forces on April 23, 2023. "

"Between April and December 2022, tests were carried out with the power group supplied from Korea and found to be successful."

"The Turkish army aims to complete the tests by 2024."

"Following the completion of the tests in 2025, mass-produced tanks with the Korean power group are expected to enter the Turkish armed force's military inventory."
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_march_2023_global_security_army_indus try/turkish_army_receives_first_two_new_altay_tanks_to _conduct_field_tests.html
(Will have to make some changes to it in at least FCS and maybe minor Armor adjustments as well.)

And I got my answer from this article, I've been tracking this tank for 15 years and it looks like I have a few more years to go.

Oh, lucky me!!!! :D

UK/Ukraine - MOD reporting the Ukrainian CHALLENGER 2 crews have completed training on the tanks, further those crews just very recently got back home.

Our tank is ready to go (CHALLENGER 2 EXPORT) but the UK is still prepping them and we all know why now-hopefully.

If they conduct combined operations like they did with the T-55S it might be mid-Summer before their assigned unit becomes operational based on what we know of the T-55S unit training cycle of LATE NOV 2022 - MAR 2023.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_march_2023_global_security_army_indus try/ukrainian_tank_crews_complete_challenger_2_trainin g_in_uk.html

Our "NOW" is unfortunately is not the Ukraine's "NOW".

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[blazejos]

Ukrainians consider reinforced their Lepoards 2A4 with ERA blocks and made themem more like 2A5

https://en.defence-ua.com/media/contentimages/1816426d640b97ae.jpg

https://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and_tech/what_is_the_point_of_adding_reactive_armor_on_leop ard_2a4_who_made_this_before_and_what_the_conclusi on_was-6248.html

[DRG]

https://en.defence-ua.com/media/contentimages/d436426d5bb6cfbc.webp

I guess I will build a new icon......... and make a few adjustments to the armour rating


Pat...... get out your crystal ball...:D

THIS is why I was in no hurry to get the upgrade out the door in March

I have no doubt the 1a5's will get a similar treatment

[Suhiir]

THIS is why I was in no hurry to get the upgrade out the door in March
With an ongoing war and everyone and their brother sending stuff to the Ukraine this update in particular will just have to be "close enough".

[DRG]

Yep....... and if the Ukrainians are putting Kontakt on the Leo 2A4's I am betting it's going on the Abrams, Challengers and Leo 1a5's as well so for now that's how the OOB's are set up

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

As to my crystal ball-I'm sticking to Mid-Summer early Fall I still have to relied on what we know of the T-55S integration/combined ops training they underwent which was well documented and submitted with my T-55S submission as well.

All the training also well documented mention they are being trained on our equipment for Combined Operations. This isn't any longer the Ukrainian Army of less then 5 years ago. It's the Ukrainian Army based on NATO Combined Army Doctrine.

I also am sure what we'll see in RL to GREATLY simplify logistics is the formation of Battalions based on the source of equipment. And this has already been discussed on the web as the plan. One Battalion each made up separately of German (All LEOPARDS.)/British and American assets. EVERY country has committed to large stocks of spare parts for all the combat vehicles being sent.

A very basic analogy is this you have a combat unit that can ONLY eat meat and another that can ONLY eat fish. But somehow, they get the opposite food, the result is you STARVE THEM until you fix the problem or they DIE if you can't.

As I made no adjustments to the ERA for the export tanks submitted (Because they didn't have ERA anyway TO START WITH.) I built, you should have to only add the ERA numbers to them which, we already have the numbers for, i.e., we know the values for say Kontact-5 etc. as they already exist in the game.

As you indicated there was no problem with the EXPORT TANKS submitted again, just add the ERA.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

No worries Pat. I will do what I think is best based on the info I have when we do the final assembly then in a year or two everyone can tell me what's wrong based on documented hindsight that IS NOT currently available

IOW..... same as always

Funny ( NOT ! ) story

I "discovered" a bit of conflict between sabot penetration data we had for a particular round and info I found online so I went digging for more sources for info and the more I dug, the more the answers came back different


532mm @ 2000m
300mm @ 2000m
740mm @ 2000m

all for the same APFSDS round at the same distance

This is why I know no matter how hard we try to "get it right" and no matter how many sources of data we use there WILL ALWAYS BE DIFFERENCES and as a result, there will always be things someone thinks what we have is wrong

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

I hope everyone realizes that the picture of the LEOPARD 2A4 on the road with the ERA is an artist's rendering, right!?!

I just had a chance to read this ref. as earlier today someone had to get ready for work. I'm kind've getting a sense that the thought is it might be a real picture.

From directly over the picture is this...
"With modern graphic design software, even the concept images began appearing of how it might look in reality. Here, for example, is how one of the designers imagined a Leopard 2A4 covered in ERA modules."

From directly under the picture is this...
"Leopard 2A4 in full reactive armor / Rendered by unknown author"

Now the next picture below the rendered one, looks real and if so, those ERA blocks look too small to be Kontact-5 in fact I'd be willing to bet that it's Kontact-1

The whole article is nothing more than an "abstract" of what some of the options are and not what it is now in any reality, yet.
https://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and_tech/what_is_the_point_of_adding_reactive_armor_on_leop ard_2a4_who_made_this_before_and_what_the_conclusi on_was-6248.html
(It makes for OK reading.)

Should the LEOPARD 1A5/1A5-DK have ERA? Yes, it's an option but so is Applique Armor or a combination of both.

And you can't rule out Ceramic Armor either of which the German LEOPARD 1A5 has an early version of made of a LEXON composite panels, which is why I made the changes to that tank in the last submission.

We're getting ahead of ourselves here just a little bit..

The only way to resolve this quite frankly is to delay the release and see what "pans out" over the next two or three months.

I realize though I'm the "lone voice in the woods" and that's OK.

Anyway...

Spain: First 6 of 10/or 11 LEOPARD 2A4 due to arrive sometime in the beginning of this month.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_march_2023_global_security_army_indus try/spain_to_send_first_6_leopard_2a4_tanks_to_ukraine _in_early_april.html

Germany: Current list of German Armor being sent to the Ukraine updated to March 30, 2023.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_march_2023_global_security_army_indus try/latest_list_of_armoured_vehicles_delivered_by_germ any_to_ukraine_as_of_march_30_2023.html

Getting more stuff...
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_march_2023_global_security_army_indus try/german_army_to_acquire_new_leopard_2a7v_tanks_to_r eplace_leopard_2a6_tanks_donated_to_ukraine.html

DU AMMO 101: I DID SAY 101.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_march_2023_global_security_army_indus try/analysis_overview_of_depleted-uranium_tank_rounds_to_be_delivered_by_uk_to_ukrai ne.html

Time for some sleep.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

I hope everyone realizes that the picture of the LEOPARD 2A4 on the road with the ERA is an artist's rendering, right!?!

Yeah BUT the photo below it in that article was not and that was what the "rendering" was based on


The only way to resolve this quite frankly is to delay the release and see what "pans out" over the next two or three months. [/B]

I realize though I'm the "lone voice in the woods" and that's OK.



As I have already said, whatever Andy and I do with the OOB data we will be hindsighted when better data is revealed and all we can do is go with what we have and what has gone on in the past and we know the Ukrainians like to put ERA onto their tanks and SO FAR we have one that appears to be workshop photo of ERA being put on a 2a4.

What we have not seen is any photos of the tanks near the front and that will tell us more than handwringing over sketchy data. What I DO KNOW is I can put on and take off ERA on a vehicle in seconds and there is at least 3 weeks to get better info....... that no doubt will turn out to be half right

[zovs66]

Peachy lol

Russia is scrapping the bottom of the barrel.

https://twitter.com/CalibreObscura/status/1642068031491678208

[DRG]

Ahem.......that was posted April 1 :D

[EJ]

LMAO....Russia needs to give up on this war! It's lunacy for them to continue. Ukraine will win this war just from the extreme logistics in war material supplied to them continuously from Nato partners. Eventually Russia will not be able to sustain this war at rate of war material they are losing.

[EJ]

I agree with Fastboat Tough. The update should be delayed maybe a few months so Andy & Don can get the most realistic equipment added into the next patch. Thanks for all they do!

[DRG]

A "few months" will make little difference because a few months after that newer info will be available that will require adjustments. We could delay this 2 years and not get all the data we need. I am NOT going to sit on this waiting for all the info to come in because all the info will likely never be available or change a month or two after we release the delay

Also...... it's not like players who are interested in "accuracy" have to wait. We have put all the tools we use in every release and you can make all the changes and additions you want

[DRG]

Ahem.......that was posted April 1 :D

Something else happened April 1

KYIV (Reuters) - Russia, whose leader is accused of war crimes, assumed charge of the United Nations Security Council on Saturday causing fury in Ukraine, with President Volodymyr Zelenskiy calling it an absurd and destructive move.


https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/01/world/russia-un-security-council-intl/index.html

Russia runs the UN Security Council this month. Ukraine says it’s the worst April Fools’ joke

A country led by an accused war criminal is now in charge of the United Nations Security Council. Hard as it is to believe, it’s Russia’s turn to assume presidency of the powerful body – which is charged with maintaining global peace and security.

The last time Russia held the rotating presidency of the body responsible for maintaining peace and combating acts of international aggression was in February 2022 when Moscow troops launched a full-scale invasion of Ukraine.

The irony is as thick as molasses in February.......

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Don,
I as well pointed out the second picture was probably real in the sense it's from the Ukraine...

"Now the next picture below the rendered one, looks real and if so, those ERA blocks look too small to be Kontact-5 in fact I'd be willing to bet that it's Kontact-1"

Now I know a little more about the ICON process-thank you!

If the current timeline is 3 weeks, I'll be watching as I would anyway.

We're for sure probably not to know about the LEOPARD 1A5 units until after the release but, as I've already stated a couple of posts ago "we just add the ERA" or something very close to this last.

Moving on...

My next is using "open source" data to track Russian tank loses of which I'm sure ORNX is one of them (Some of those pictures look very familiar to me-HMmmm.). They say they'll update this weekly with a "brief" bio of each tank. Tank loses (#) is next to the name of the tank. This is Week 1.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/ukraine_-_russia_conflict_war_2022/list_of_russian_tank_models_and_the_number_lost_in _russia_ukraine_war_2022.html

Poland has signed the agreement to produce the K2 export (K-2PL) tank, this obviously this will not happen overnight but will more than likely take 2-3 years to build and procure the manufacturing equipment. In the meantime, South Korea will be suppling I believe the first 200 tanks or so.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_april_2023_global_security_army_indus try/poland_signs_joint_venture_with_south_korea_to_pro duce_locally_k2_tanks.html

I think this Thread is fairly caught up on.

In my first Submission that was focused on the Russian captured tanks I had shown the original number captured when I was putting it together.

Just before I posted it, I went back and reviewed the ORNX captured numbers. If there was a change, I updated the number to reflect that as follows from the submission...T-80BVM (32) +) ,

When the patch gets released and as part of my normal admin cycle when I "bounce" the submission list off the patch I will update those numbers to see what's changed since it was posted.

It's a FREE SERVICE with "No Contract to Sign!!" :D

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[EJ]

@DRG,
Ok...You're the boss. I'm just looking forward to the update & anxiously waiting on it---:D. I say nothing but good things about this game & encourage other people to play it. The realism in this tactical war strategy game is unparalleled by any other. No other war game keeps me immersed like this one. I don't know of any other game that has the amount of dedication thru the years to keep it relevant as this one has had. Thanks for all that you & Andy do....:up:!

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Well, it looks like the first of that Heavy Armor is just starting to arrive in the Ukraine.
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/land-forces/latest/update-ukraine-conflict-leopard-2a6-and-challenger-2-mbts-delivered-to-kyiv

Still sticking to my timeline ("Crystal Ball") and the reasons for it my from Post 1600.

I would highly recommend you read the following.
https://www.port.ac.uk/news-events-and-blogs/blogs/ukraine-war-supply-of-advanced-tanks-will-give-kyiv-an-edge-over-russia-and-move-it-closer-to-nato
https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/27/europe/ukraine-war-nato-tanks-analysis-intl-hnk-ml/index.html

And yes, I did already.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

I hope the link will work below.

If NOT, the story is dealing with Australia conducting a test of their M1A1 tank rounds.

"The 120mm KEW-A2 round is primarily used for anti-tank engagements at ranges out to 4000m.

Its projectile is a tungsten penetrator that accelerates to a muzzle velocity of more than 6200 km/h.

“Muzzle velocity should be of a specific rate that offers little margin for variation,” Sgt Mavall said. “We were looking to see whether there was any shift in that, and there wasn’t.”

EDIT: The link worked; however, it took you to page the above was part of but also allowed full access to the rest of the paper.

I think I better send them an email to see if I can post this fully for other than my personal use as I have a subscription.

You gotta make sure they work.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

The following have been on the ORNX list from when I began Patch Post #1 which covered BOTH Russian tank issues as well as the Ukrainian captured Russian tank submissions.

I outlined that I wasn't going to add any Russian tanks where the Ukraine already had or have better versions.

But unlike the T-62MV/T-62M which were the first to be addressed on that submission that needed to be fixed, I completely forgot to go back to address the Russian T-64A/T-64BV tanks.

I just checked my notes and the above is right where I wrote down before my work started. :doh:

So, the T-64 is fighting in the Ukraine.

Second from your Post in the APC Thread I've not seen or heard of either side using a T-64 "APC".

Third if you're wanting to make adjustments to the Russian T-64 I would draw your attention to the last of the type by END Date.

T-64A UNIT 063 END 12/1984

T-64BV UNIT 838 END 12/2012.

The following report for LAST KNOWN DATE IN EACH CATAGORY:
T-64A 2 DESTROYED LAST ONE AUG. 21, 2022.

T-64BV 40 DESTROYED JAN 23, 2023/4 DAMAGED FEB 23, 2023/2 ABANDONED JUL 4, 2022/5 CAPTURED JUL 7, 2022 (CLICK ON #5 NOTE WHAT APPEARS TO BE IMPROVISED SIDE SKIRT
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html
https://www.armyrecognition.com/

There were some reports to suggest they were withdrawn because as we know a T-64 is nothing more than a mobile "Roman Candle".

Well so I was to be in the shower to get ready for the range instead it'll be back to the Dr. :sick:

1hr. of sleep and this is what I'm doing!?! I must really be :sick: :p

I'd rather be shooting! :cool:

Time "drag" my you know what into bed.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

I have extended the end date for both ......that said that list, If I read it correctly, does not differentiate "Russian" losses from the breakaway areas so these could ( maybe) be coming from there which means they started and ended in Ukraine because IIRC Russia had been shipping their old T-64's to the breakaway areas .

It's a moot point though if these are Russian stocks sent to Luhansk and Donetsk they are still "Russian"

[blazejos]

There is some info about Russian T-80UM2 Black Eagle which is a prototype and was destroyed in 2022 during fights.

https://en.defence-ua.com/media/contentimages/e95642c2ae2ce7bf.jpg

other model is T-80UE-1 which Russians have a battalion 40 tanks

https://en.defence-ua.com/media/contentimages/fb9642c2b053dc6d.jpg

https://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and_tech/the_russian_forces_want_to_deploy_t_80um2_experime ntal_tank_to_ukraine_but_they_forgot_about_one_cru cial_detail-6290.html

Destruction of T-90
https://en.defence-ua.com/news/spectacular_destruction_of_russian_t_90m_disabled_ with_atgm_the_tank_was_finished_off_with_molotov_c ocktails-6313.html

[DRG]

There is a photo of an IS-3 on a flatcar.......:wave:

https://en.defence-ua.com/media/contentimages/fe36429b38a17dd9.jpeg

[blazejos]

You have right not all this info propably are real :doh: that was a good point with IS-3 :D

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Well, your T-80UE1 does exist.

However, they seem to have only made a few of them. Whether or not they had enough for a Brigade "might be" a matter of conjecture.

But I can provide the following.
"Around 60 Russian T-80BV, T-80BVM, T-80UK, T-80UE1 and T-80U Main Battle Tanks (MBTs) have been visually confirmed captured during the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine as of 26 June 2022, with some put to use by the 93rd Mechanized Brigade (In March they operated a mix of the T-80BV & T-80BVM. Going into the Fall of 2022 I'm sure I read they went to only the T-80BVM. My understanding is that the T-80BV tanks they had along with other captured ones went to another Brigade."
[B]https://www.armyrecognition.com/ukraine_-_russia_conflict_war_2022/discover_list_of_russian_captured_armored_and_comb at_vehicles_used_now_by_ukrainian_army.html

"T-80UE1 is an upgraded version of the T-80U, fitted with a Plisa thermal sight and improved fire control system. This version was officially adopted by the Russian Army in 2005. Only a small number of these tanks were built. These tanks were used during 2022 invasion to Ukraine and some of them were lost."
https://www.military-today.com/tanks/t80u.htm
https://mil.in.ua/en/news/the-russian-military-lost-the-rare-t-80ue-1-tanks-in-the-sumy-region/
(Stand-alone ref.)

What say ORNX?
6 Total:
1 DESTROYED FEB 26, 2022 (Here ORNX declared this tank as destroyed. However, my Ref just above (Same picture but a different angle.) described this same tank as damaged. Both ORNX pictures.
https://postimg.cc/TpZb0ptQ

5 Last Captured APR 30, 2022.
https://i.postimg.cc/fb0m5nJQ/4388.jpg

1. From "THIRD" Patch Post #1/Page 1 it did not meet my requirement to Field 2 Platoons plus 1 Reserve or if you from the same "2+1". Ukraine operates with a "Light Platoon" w/4 tanks or "Heavy Platoon" with 6 tanks.

2. There is no upside to enter this tank when we have both the T-80BV and T-80BVM (Which in the submission was improved upon based on "newer" references.) Both these tanks are much better overall.

3. And the Russian OOB is tight though I requested deletion of about 2 T-90A tanks equipped with ARENA APS which that tank never had. We still have a "bit" to go yet. And I'm currently holding some info on that now for possible new equipment.

4. And this might be the most important "observation" of all. The gap between the 4th captured to the last above is about 5-6 weeks.

And if that's not enough look at the gap from last captured to now, that's almost a year for any sighting no matted the "condition".

That logically implies the rest were withdrawn or less likely destroyed.

My first tank posted in this Thread, the BLACK EAGLE if it was in combat the whole world would've heard about it by now. This tank garnered a lot of attention at the time and the speculation by the West if we would have to fight it. Of course, this was followed by the vaunted T-95. Neither of the two saw the light of day.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[MarkSheppard]

New vehicle concept dropped.

https://mobile.twitter.com/ronkainen7k15/status/1644327192946688000

The ACT3205 RCV-H unmanned tank killer concept proposed by the US Army GVSC. ACT3205 features an automated 120mm cannon, a 650hp hybrid electric drive, hard-kill APS, and costs only one-sixth of M1A2 SEPv3 per unit. A C-17 aircraft can carry two ACT3205s and a control vehicle.

https://i.imgur.com/a1bfNTw.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/785mXuK.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/mcPCHxk.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/xxMN3C4.jpg

Not ready now, but by 2030 I think this will happen.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

We did some work to bring these "Up to Speed" a few years back.

I have to do some rechecking but, I thought I read somewhere in the deluge of refs that the UK was going to supply these also besides this Crowd Funding effort.

I don't think they've been used in combat since Iraq/Afghanistan now maybe in the Ukraine I'm just going to pull one item from the ref.
"It holds the Guinness world record for the fastest production tank with its Diesel engine, recorded doing 82.23 km/h (51.10 mph) at the QinetiQ vehicle test track, Chertsey, Surrey, on 26 January 2002. (The original Jaguar engine enabled the vehicle to reach 100+ km/h!)." Irelands are apparently more powerful and reliable with a different engine. https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_april_2023_global_security_army_indus try/ukrainian_army_to_get_ex-british_army_cvrt_scorpion_armored_reconnaissance_ vehicles.html

Also, the Scorpion FV101 CVRT is being brought up again from earlier posts I've seen. The last version the British Army operated was the SCORPION 3. All were retired in 1994. A couple of other countries still operate them.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/united_kingdom_british_army_light_armoured_vehicle/scorpion_cvrt_fv101_light_tracked_armored_reconnai ssance_vehicle_data.html

I'm going to see if SIPRI has released their 2022 arms transfer list yet, like us they've pushed back their normal release date as well.

If I find something there, I'll post it. If not I'm sure, you'll figure out which 2 options prevented me from doing so.

0550 EDIT: SIPRI is updated through 2022. The above are not included when I checked Suppliers UK and Others (Which include Crowd Funding & similar.) and Recipient Ukraine. There is actually a Crowd Funded Equipment exchange shown. Back to bed for 4 more hours. :cool:

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

https://www.armyrecognition.com/ukraine_-_russia_conflict_war_2022/russia_to_equip_t-80bvm_and_t-90m_tanks_with_arena-m_active_protection_system.html


Russia to equip T-80BVM and T-90M tanks with Arena-M Active Protection System


Funny......... we already have a T-80BVM with an active system from 2020...... I guess I'll change that

T-90M in game has a passive system..... we'll just wait and see what happens with that....

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

I don't think you need to change anything on the T-80BVM.

Patch Post Thread PAGE 30/POST 298/SCROLL DOWN PAGE 4/T-80BVM UNIT 046/ These tanks per the refs below this entry represented the first 31 Production Models w/o AREANA due to costs at the time, which is why it was equipped with VIRSS.

T-80BVM UNIT 046/From ref 1...
"However in 2017 Russian MoD signed a contract to refurbish and upgrade a total of 62 T-80BV tanks to the T-80BVM standard in order to keep them in operational service.

In 2018 a first batch of 31 T-80BV tanks was upgraded to the T-80BVM standard. These operational tanks were first publicly revealed during a military parade in 2018. However these initial tanks lacked some features of the T-80BVM demonstrator, that was revealed in 2017. Upgrade of the T-80BV tanks to the T-80BVM standard continued in 2019 when another 31 tanks were delivered (So they are saying 62 tanks built with VIRSS.).

In 2020 a contract was signed to upgrade another 50+ T-80BV tanks to the new standard." (TASS ref below said 2019 on the Contract.) ("new standard" would mean UNIT 048 with ARENA.)

Ref. 2... Under DESIGN.
"Some elements of the T-80BVM prototype are missing (Refers to the 2017 demonstrator as noted elsewhere.), but could be added at a later stage. These include remote weapon system and active and passive protection systems." (This refers to the original 31 or as the the above suggests a total of 62.)

Ref. 2... Under PROTECTION.
"There are reports that Arena-M active protection system is to be fitted in the near future (UNIT 048) ."

T-80BVM UNIT 048/The funding would become available in 2019 that allowed the Russian to fulfill the expectations from the 2017 Demonstrator built with it. They were added in late 2019 through at least 2020. My ref from submission...
https://tass.com/defense/1098733?utm_source=forum.shrapnelgames.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=forum.shrapnelgames.com&utm_referrer=forum.shrapnelgames.com

Now let's take it apart...
Date: 12 DEC 2019, 08:08

Title: "Defense contractor completes delivery of upgraded T-80BVM tanks to Russian troops"

As it relates to UNIT 046 with VIRSS not upgraded.

Para 2: "The upgrade allows enhancing the vehicle’s basic combat properties: its firepower, defense capability, mobility and crew’s control." Continues.

Last Para: "The T-80BVM is an upgraded version of the T-80BM tank. It features an improved 125mm cannon and an enhanced 1,250 hp gas turbine engine. A multi-channel gunner sight, a mechanic-driver’s vision device and an armament stabilizer are also mounted on the upgraded tank. The combat vehicle is reinforced with slat armor and a modular active protection system."

Other than I submitted:
https://www.army-technology.com/projects/t80/

Date: March 25, 2022

Last Para: T-80BVM
The advanced T-80BVM version features 125mm cannons and an improved 1,250hp gas turbine engine. Reinforced with slat armour and a modular active protection system, the upgraded tank is mounted with a multi-channel gunner sight, a vision device for the mechanic driver, and an armament stabiliser.

Then we have a math problem. First 31 built without AREANA but equipped with VIRSS.

Now we go to ORNX. As of this writing they have verified thus far that 75 are in the Ukraine in all manner of condition (32 Captured.).

Assuming the first 31 built with VIRSS were in the Ukraine that still leaves a difference of 44 tanks equipped with what?

Answer: ARENA

Here's the "rub" so below is your source.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/ukraine_-_russia_conflict_war_2022/russia_to_equip_t-80bvm_and_t-90m_tanks_with_arena-m_active_protection_system.html

Let's start here...
Para 2...
"The modernization of various Russian tank models is progressing, despite concerns voiced by Ukrainian officials regarding Russia's ability to maintain its production capacity amidst numerous sanctions. According to these officials, Russia is currently producing several dozen tanks daily."
(This is about economics the sanctions really didn't start to impact the Russian Govt. until about 3-4 months into them. The affects were pretty devastating when they did.

Since then, what has happened Russian Gas and Oil. Well on Dec. 5th the EU Cap of $60.00 per barrel also Russian Oil to the EU via pipelines as the ban excludes some landlocked refineries in eastern Europe.

EU is still buying at a reduced level. However, India has more than doubled their imports of Russian Oil and China is still their now #2 importer.

And what happened at the beginning of this past week? Our friends in Saudi Arabia along with Russia agreed to both cut exports by 1.1 Barrels a day.
https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/how-much-crude-oil-does-eu-still-import-russia-2022-10-12/

Business is about money and money is needed to fight wars.

The next is the link from the army recognition article from above concerning the T-90M afterall by that article the T-90M is also going to get the AREANA. Well along with the T-80BVM UNIT 048 improved tank it's NOT TRUE here either.

SAME WEBSITE Posted on 07 APRIL 2023

Lead Para cuts:
"According to a statement released on April 13, 2020, by the Russian army press service, the first T-90M Proryv Main Battle Tanks (MBTs) have been delivered to the 1St Guards Tank Army of Western Military District deployed in five regions of Russia."

"On January 12, 2023, the Russian State Defense company ROSTEC announced the delivery of a new undisclosed number of T-90M tanks to the Russian army."

BINGO WE HAVE A WINNER ALSO THE IMPROVED T-80BVM ARE STILL IN PRODUCTION ALSO.

This is what this ORIGNAL article is referring to.

But just in case, back to the T-90M link from that article.

Under: "Accessories"
"Standard equipment (Therefore if it's Standard equipment" by any definition it CANNOT be an accessory.) of the T-90M Model 2017 Proryv-3 NBC protection, fire detection and suppression system, nose-mounted dozer blade and a deep fording kit. To increase the operational range of the T-90, two diesel fuel drums can be carried under the hull rear. A very unique feature of the T-90M is the wood log mounted on the right side of the hull which is normally mounted to the rear of the hull for all Russian combat vehicles which can be used to pull the tank free from the mud. The T-90M is also protected by soft- and hard-kill active protection systems (APS), which seems similar to the Afganit system installed on the T-14 Armata. According to Russian military experts, the T-90M is also fitted with a modern fire-control system providing tank-type target detection at a range of 5,000 m by day, an enhanced dual-axis gun stabilizer and an automatic target tracker that can operate in hunter-killer mode."

Nowhere above does read will be added/could/can/might /option/is an accessory

They're building new tanks which means they NEED MORE ARENA Systems for them is all.

This that "They have just equipped the first U.S. XYZ Brigade at Ft. Hood with the ABRAMS SEP 4" that was pretty close to the actual article from last January early February 2023.

Let's everyone be HONEST out here, some fair amount probably after reading that didn't go beyond the title or a couple of more sentences.

Not too much further into that article, you would find they ONLY received the first (As in 1 tank.) M1A2D/SEP 4 for training and start of field operational evaluations.

"The road is littered with they got. " And we have to FIX IT.

And some of us are the "Garbage Trucks" that pick up the "they got" so the road will be clear for "they have fully equipped XYZ Brigade" and at the roads end at the following addresses 123 FOC near 456 Time to Submit in the TOWN OF PATCH located somewhere on the U.S. Canadian Border (So you'll need your Passport!?!) :D

We just had this discussion, my work takes so long because of the way these articles are written I can't count the number of times Don, others and I have had to fix this and other similar situations over the years.

They truly are barriers to our ability to get equipment that's already fielded by us or other countries. The ABRAMS of 2019/INDIA before that almost all their most recent tanks and all the Russian tanks for I don't remember how many foreign countries and some within. And finally, one of my favorites that just "popped up" again replacing all those USN A-4 SKYHAWK pictures that showed up in all those foreign operator countries, just in the last submission from Brazil. Just when I thought we got them all. :shock:

Well, it's 0549 I'm wondering in my current :sick: condition how happy CINCLANTHOME will be when she asks, :laugh: "What time did you come to bed THIS MORNING?", as I cannot lie because this happens EVERYTIME I :laugh: it's true.

So, we'll see if this exercise was worth or not. :dk:

Time to discover/Time to Research/Time to Read/Time to gather evidence/Time to calculate/Time to Formulate/Time to Format/Time to Review/Time to Submit/Time to Discuss/Time to Answer Questions/Time to Defend-Not often/Time to know the "Boss" is happy (The Canadian one.)/Time to ask if all was worth it/Time to Reflect and in the have the.../Time to say it was/Time to appreciate the TEAM effort to get there all these many years and because of it all above.../Time to know the work paid of at 95% of EVERYTHING submitted over those years got in the game. These last two submissions got in at a 100% because of all the TIME above.

Now it is TIME to get some sleep and recoup from this B] Bronchitis crap[/B] as I've just entered my 5th week of it and the good Dr. saying the lungs are clear but, there might be 2 weeks left to go. Lucky me!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

Pat......... use that "2 weeks left to go" to get healthy so take a break from the massive posts late at night.

OK ?

let's everyone be HONEST out here, some fair amount probably after reading that didn't go beyond the title or a couple of more sentences.

Yep...... but I don't get that luxury


After wading through this three times this is what it distils down to that I can use ( I think... I might have to go through it again to see if I missed something..

======================

I don't think you need to change anything on the T-80BVM.

First 31 built without AREANA but equipped with VIRSS.

Now we go to ORNX. As of this writing they have verified thus far that 75 are in the Ukraine in all manner of condition (32 Captured.).

Assuming the first 31 built with VIRSS were in the Ukraine that still leaves a difference of 44 tanks equipped with what?

Answer: ARENA

======================

.....and then you could have got a couple of hours extra sleep.

Sleep is good. I know I don't get enough of it either

Your word for the day is "Brevity"



This is my fault if I had read the info I put into the game back when this was added I wouldn't have made the post that started all of this



This unit represents the second batch of 31 BVM's which had further updates and had ARENA APS installed .*


Why you may ask......less than 6 hours sleep the night before and I was up at 4:30 am that day....

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

It's NOBODYS FAULT we're all tired which is why some may have noticed I started "breaking down" my refs lately.

It's as much for me as the rest of you.

Not even Army Recognition posted stories on every Saturday before the War and on our Military Holidays (I guess because of our share of visits to the site possibly.) they didn't post on those days as well.

Now they're working through the weekend as well.

Brevity is a word I'm not known for it somehow goes against the grain of my makeup. Snap Decisions are easy for me but when you're underwater trying to navigate a Submarine at a "FLANK" Bell we were required to look down our "track" at least 4 hrs. ahead at any speed, all the time every day and be ready to provide recommendations for expected/or unexpected events that might come up. [/B]

You never know when you might run into a KRAKEN out there and they are nasty creatures with plenty of attitude! :eek:

We'll get through this.

The "Yeomans" work is being done by Andy and you.

I'm just happy with my small contribution to the game and I feel good that what I do is accepted as it is.

Just a couple of "light" refs on T-80BVM production. The last 2 are from the Ukraine and what I found interesting was the "advice" they're giving Russia on what tanks they should build.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_october_2022_global_security_army_ind ustry/russian_army_receives_new_t-80bvm_tanks_tanks_despite_world_economic_sanctions .html
https://en.defence-ua.com/analysis/russia_intends_to_fight_for_real_refuse_from_the_t _62m_renovate_armored_vehicles_in_the_so_called_dp r_and_lpr-4395.html
https://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and_tech/the_russian_army_to_receive_new_t_80bvms_no_furthe r_t_72b3_upgrade_expected-4407.html

I think we should end on a GOOD VIDEO what do think!?!

Yeah, let's do it!

Before and with some BREVITY it appears, the Russians are lacking in AT weapons. You'll understand when you watch this video with sound effects!
https://www.newsweek.com/video-ukraine-tank-bombard-russian-trench-intense-fight-1792777
(2nd video down.)

I'm a Dog (Shes passed) and Turtle (He's Oscar @ 22 years old and keeps us amused.) person so I'm down for a "Turtle Nap."

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

With Norway's 8 LEO 2A4 tanks having arrived in Ukraine they should now be able to form 1 LEO MBT Battalion this would include the 16 LEO 2A6 tanks sent by Germany.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_april_2023_global_security_army_indus try/ukraine_receives_8_leopard_2a4_tanks_from_norway_f ollowing_those_received_from_poland_and_canada.htm l

Well, the good news for the Ukraine is that they good neighbors to the East. An agreement has been made to start overhauls and modernization programs for the Ukrainian T-64 at a newly built tank factory in Poland.
This will be a joint venture.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_april_2023_global_security_army_indus try/ukraine_and_poland_join_forces_for_t-64_tank_overhauls.html

I might as well post these as it ties into the and might offer some insight into who is repairing at least the Ukraine's Western equipment.
https://balticword.com/lithuania-to-repair-12-pzh-2000-howitzers-for-ukraine/
https://www.dw.com/en/ukraine-war-how-to-repair-the-ukrainian-armys-modern-weapons/a-63215373

We haven't had news on the LEO 1A5 until now. The plan sounds like they think they can 80 them into the Ukraine before the Summer (We'll see.).

It will be as we thought a mix of the German LEO 1A5/Danish LEO 1A5DK (Both of which have been modified and submitted in my last Part 2 submission.)

Though I know I speculated on the following possibility I was still none the less surprised to see it mentioned. I figured they'd be used in an CS role or rearguard situations.

The article is reporting this...
"The first tanks are anticipated to be ready in the spring, intended for training Ukrainian forces."

So, the keys are ("The first tanks ...") so yes, I feel they will fight at some level.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_april_2023_global_security_army_indus try/ukraine_to_receive_leopard_1_tanks_from_denmark_be fore_the_summer.html

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

The Pentagon can get "highly" motivated when the situation warrants, and it looks like they might have found the "leak" of those classified documents.

If true and like someone else out here who dealt with "sensitive" materials all our military career might agree that this guy needs to make big rocks into little rocks and grind them down to dust for an eternity.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/the-man-who-may-have-leaked-top-secret-pentagon-documents-was-a-fit-and-armed-military-guy-who-controlled-a-group-of-young-gamers-united-by-their-worship-of-guns-and-god-wapo/ar-AA19NxMc?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=bdb0baced2d342e4887ea6cad8d4e0db&ei=25

The data they "mine" from those servers are going to have some ramifications down the road.

Hopefully this won't arise to the level of Walker who at the time and currently might've caused the worst damage to our military and in particular our Submarine Force.
https://news.usni.org/2014/09/02/john-walker-spy-ring-u-s-navys-biggest-betrayal

I was serving on my first "boat" at the time-I really didn't appreciate how he potentially if "The balloon went up." might've cost me my life before we could get into the fight.

A gamer(s) with this last potentially-go figure. :doh:

Just be careful of your sources if it doesn't look right, it probably isn't.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

So, the keys are ("The first tanks ...") so yes, I feel they will fight at some level.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_april_2023_global_security_army_indus try/ukraine_to_receive_leopard_1_tanks_from_denmark_be fore_the_summer.html

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

I had the Leo 1A5's first available 5/123 so that seems about right

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Spain has just finished training their initial group of Ukrainian tankers on the LEO 2A4 with training lasting a month but for Spain they noted the crews and maintainers are experienced War surviving trainees.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_april_2023_global_security_army_indus try/spain_completes_the_training_of_ukrainian_leopard_ 2a4_tank_crew_members.html

I posted about a month back or so from Army Recognition an article which broke down the European status of all LEOPARD tank holdings.

Everyone was pointing a finger at Germany about their contributions to the Ukraine. The next ref does a good job to address the many issues facing all the EU members with their LEOPARD tanks.

The reason I submitted the German OOB tank I did (And it's very current in ALL it's capabilities.) is that everything newer is in the "pipeline" to be upgraded by degrees until they reach the final stages to be finished off in the end to be brought up to the 2A7V.

If you look at the OOB you actually see this "transition" in place as was entered last year in the game.

The tank situation in Germany is so bad, that to replace the 16 LEO 2A6 "older model" going to the Ukraine, Germany went to Switzerland to see if they would sale Germany some of their LEO 2A6 tanks.

Well, that's not going to happen at this time or anytime soon.
https://www.euro-defence.eu/2023/03/08/swiss-leopard-2-main-battle-tanks-for-germany/#:~:text=German%20government%20has%20now%20request ed%20purchase%20of%20an,be%20taken%20over%20and%20 modernised%20by%20Rheinmetall%20company.

Germany had also tried to improve the number of LEO 1A5 for the Ukraine in making an offer to buy Brazil's. Also, more recently they refused to also sell Germany any 105mm tank rounds as well.
https://global.espreso.tv/brazil-rejects-germanys-request-for-tank-ammunition-for-ukraine-media

Part of the tank refusal is based on the following that I've been tracking.
https://militaryleak.com/2021/06/16/brazilian-army-issues-request-for-information-to-upgrade-leopard-1a5br-tanks/

Now back to the "deficient" issue...
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/28/world/europe/ukraine-tanks.html
https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/german-defense-minister-rules-out-additional-leopard-tanks-t

One last to tired to get it where it should go-sorry!
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russian-jet-almost-shot-down-a-british-surveillance-plane-flying-near-ukraine-and-only-failed-because-the-missile-malfunctioned-report/ar-AA19P23U?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=9c002caa285044e3a5afd0f87cacf350&ei=17

Getting better passed my weapons quals I live for another 6 months and do it again.

Now you better understand my "crystal ball" operational time period for the European tanks etc.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

The first serves as a sort of "Checks and Balances" the Dutch contributions from Feb. '22 through Apr. 05, 2023.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_april_2023_global_security_army_indus try/netherlands_reveals_list_of_weapons_combat_vehicle s_sent_to_ukraine.html

As I said would happen months ago is now in the publics "eye" we have a "new toy" to exam. First to bring home a point I've been making for quite some time now this...
"According to information published by the British Intelligence Services, re-purposed captured Russian equipment and combat vehicles now makes up a large proportion of Ukraine's military hardware. Ukraine has likely captured at least 440 Russian main battle tanks, and around 650 other combat vehicles since the invasion."

Now to the toy this article also speaks volumes to the whole export tank issue whether you like or not that's reality.

EVERYTHING I've brought up concerning why countries won't send in their latest front-line tanks is discussed in Paras 4 and 5 BELOW Ref. .

Surely you can read at least that much. Russia won't be happy about this but, they had to know the day was coming when they committed their best tanks in the war.

But when you're a belligerent in war that's the risk.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_april_2023_global_security_army_indus try/ukraine_hands_over_a_captured_russian_t-90a_tank_to_united_states.html

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Well apparently, not everyone is sold on the K2 in Europe.

Norway now joins Hungry (And one other I can't remember right now.) in down selecting the LEOPARD 2A7 (EXPORT).

The initial order will be for 54 tanks to be designated as the LEOPARD 2A7NO (Of course what else.) with the option for an additional 18 more units.

Like with Hungry (They've only received the LEOPARD 2A4 training tanks.) there is NO TIMELINE set for delivery.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_april_2023_global_security_army_indus try/norway_orders_leopard_2a7_tanks_including_rheinmet all_main_gun_and_fire_control_technology_with_sens ors.html

The good news I submitted the EXPORT LEOPARD 2A7/2A7V so we're tank ready to just "plug in and play" when we know something.

If it wasn't for the war, I'd say we'd see these before games end.

I think now it'll be "touch and go" but from my perspective building them wouldn't have been a wasted effort.

TGIF!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[blazejos]

Info about new-old T-55/T-54 which reach a frontline and propably are already in combat units on Russian side. From article general conclusion is that this tanks aren't upgraded in any way just refurbished.

https://en.defence-ua.com/industries/russias_t_55_tanks_reached_the_front_line_how_long _did_it_take_and_what_does_it_mean-6394.html

https://mil.in.ua/en/news/russia-directs-t-55-tanks-to-ukraine/

T-55 are also used actively during coup d'etate in Sudan which started yesterday togeteher with technicals vehicles
https://en.defence-ua.com/news/battles_over_the_hierarchy_in_sudan_armored_vehicl es_on_the_streets_airstrikes_and_assaults_on_bases-6407.html

Leopard 1A5 former Danish are also nearly finishing completnes
https://en.defence-ua.com/news/ukraine_will_receive_danish_leopard_1_tanks_in_com ing_weeks-6404.html
https://mil.in.ua/en/news/preparation-of-the-first-leopard-1-tanks-for-ukraine-from-denmark-is-being-completed/

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

As promised without all the "BOLD" for the players. Thank You for not commenting on the Patch Thread as that's the "workshop" where things get done in a focused manner. As noted already both submissions have been vented.

Patch Post #1 for the 2022-2023 Campaign Page 2.
A quick update, early this morning (Week ago almost.) and revisited the ORNX site since I looked into this last in November. Tanks that saw increases in captured tanks will be marked with a "+”. The Russian tanks that saw the largest “captured” increases by several were the T-72B3M (As to be corrected below.) and the T-80BV. Also, to update the T-90M stats now show 9 T-90M: (1, destroyed) (2, destroyed) (3, destroyed) (1, damaged) (2, damaged) (3, damaged) (1, damaged and abandoned) (1, captured) (2, captured) as of today.

Also, for current/future players should we consider something such (C), 22 or CAP to denote their captured status after their “name”?

The (31) after the name by example, shows how many were captured (2+1) of each unit. The means Photo Video Range by dates. As discussed in Page 1 this will set my START dates unless I have better data.

[B]UKRAINE/CHANGE/T-62MV/UNIT 023/STEEL TF 36/HEAT HF 35/TF 43/PARITY ISSUE/T-62MV SAME MBT BOTH COUNTRIES ARMOR WISE. //
RUSSIA/CHANGE/T-62MV/UNIT 023/STEEL HS 10/HEAT HS 13/TS 21/TOP 6/PARITY ISSUE/T-62MV SAME MBT BOTH COUNTRIES ARMOR WISE. //These tanks were I believe both designed and built in what was then Soviet occupied Ukraine. The Ukrainian tanks were "inherited" after the Soviet Empire collapsed. There are no differences between them.

UKRAINE/ADD/T-62M (33) +/COPY/RUSSIAN UNIT 021/PVR MAR10-NOV13 2022/START/N0V 2022/NEAR PEER/UKRAINIAN UNIT 022. //
UKRAINE/ADD T-62MV (8) +/COPY/RUSSIAN RIVISED UNIT 023/PVR APR10-NOV11 2022/START/NOV 2022. //
The Ukraine just literally got rid of all their T-62 tanks except for the ones on display in museums and parks ~25 years ago. Though Ukrainian UNIT 022 was actually better in the T-62M1 BDD version which apparently Russia had as well. Also, it appears Russia will be bringing back a slightly modified version of the Russian T-62M1 BDD as part of 800 T-62 modernization Program to start later this year.
****** The question “hanging in the air” is do we add the T-62M1 BDD to the Russian OOB as copied from the Ukraine OOB as they had it? ******
https://www.armyrecognition.com/ukra...sian_army.html
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...91e1803f05bb9e
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...-losses-report
https://weaponsystems.net/system/634-T-62M
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/t62.htm

Page 3.
RUSSIA/CHANGE/T-72AV/UNIT 033/START/JAN 1988 VICE JAN 1985/PER REFS AT END. //
RUSSIA/CHANGE/T-72B/UNIT 036/START JUN 1989 VICE JAN 1988/END/DEC 2025 VICE DEC 1992/PER REFS AT END. //
Going with USA date.
https://odin.tradoc.army.mil/mediawi...ttle_Tank_(MBT)
http://fofanov.armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/MBT/t-72bm.htm
(This ref. not updated since 2000. See very bottom of page.)

UKRAINE/ADD/T-72B (65) +/COPY/RUSSIAN REVISED UNIT 036/PVR MAR20-NOV29 2022/START JUL 2022/NEAR PEER/UKRAINIAN UNIT 033. //

RUSSIA/CHANGE/T-72B1M/UNIT 045/RENAME/T-72B3/START/JAN 2013 VICE JAN 2012/ADD/ATGW 9M119 AT-11 SVIR OR 9M119M REFLEKKS/HAS APS ARENA/TI/GSR 40 VICE 45/MG 125mm 2A46M-5 VICE 125mm GUN 05. // One of few Russian tanks that can use more than one ATGW. TI/GSR changed to maintain separation with the T-72B3M as submitted below, that tank currently represents the "APEX” in T-72 design. However, I feel the rest of the FCS should remain unchanged. The Contract wasn’t signed until 2012 to begin the modernization program. By the end of 2013 a total of 270 units were produced. This tank as it stands compares "nicely” against the current [Russian T-73B3 UNIT 697.

RUSSIA/DELETE/T-72B1M/UNIT 047/TANK DOES NOT EXIST/NOT NEEDED FOR T-73B3/ALL T-72B3 HAVE APS ARENA INSTALLED. // See MBT Post # 1459 for further. As a postscript to that post, what I just did above I had written down almost a week ago-listen to that inner voice. Also due to that post, RUSSIAN/T-72BM/UNIT 037/I’VE LEFT IT UNCHANGED.
https://weaponsystems.net/system/1410-T-72B3
https://www.armyrecognition.com/russ...act_sheet.html

UKRAINE/ADD/T-72B3 (83) +/COPY/RUSSIAN REVISED UNIT 045/PVR MAR07-DEC01 2022/START AUG 2022/NEAR PEER/UKRAINIAN UNITS 042 & 043. //

RUSSIA/CHANGE/T-72B3/UNIT 697/RENAME/T-72B3M. // As discussed in the MBT Thread, I unintentionally named this tank incorrectly when submitted during the 2013/2014 Patch Campaign.

UKRAINE/ADD/T-72B3M (100) +/COPY/RUSSIAN REVISED UNIT 697/PVR MAR02-DEC28 2022/START AUG 2022/NEAR PEER/UKRAINIAN UNITS 061 & 063. //
https://weaponsystems.net/system/1410-T-72B3
https://www.armyrecognition.com/russ..._pictures.html
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/t72b4.htm

******ORNX would report that there are currently 102 T-72 variants which they haven’t been able to classify with 80 Destroyed/16 Damaged/1 Damaged & Abandoned and 5 Captured.
I call this journalistic “integrity”. ******

Page 4
RUSSIA/CHANGE/T-80BV/UNIT 040/END/DEC 2025 VICE DEC 1992. // This tank is very much still in service. Also, it’s confirmed that to date 199 been destroyed, damaged, and abandoned with 77 captured by Ukraine. However newer pictures seem to show it with Kontakt-5 ERA package.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/russ...res_video.html
https://weaponsystems.net/system/832-T-80BV
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/t80b.htm

RUSSIA/CHANGE/T-80BVM/UNIT 046/FC 45 VICE 50/STABILIZER 5 VICE 6 .//Earlier models had a passive defensive system VRISS per refs. ALSO “In 2018 a first batch of 31 T-80BV tanks was upgraded to the T-80BVM standard. These operational tanks were first publicly revealed during a military parade in 2018. However, these initial tanks lacked some features of the T-80BVM demonstrator that was revealed in 2017.” In 2019 31 T-80BV tanks were too be updated to the modernized version of the T-80BVM based on the above mentioned 2017 demonstrator. That would be UNIT 048 below.
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/t80bvm.htm
https://weaponsystems.net/system/835-T-80BVM

RUSSIA/CHANGE/T-80BVM/UNIT 048/ START/JAN 2020 VICE OCT 2018/TI/GSR 45 VICE 40/SURVIABILITY 5 VICE 4/ADD/ARENA APS SYSTEM//. Upon review of the ORNX pictures where the turrets aren’t too badly damaged, they are ALL clearly showing me the mast used for the ARENA APS. There’s only 2 trains of thought here 1. All got the ARENA APS installed SINCE 2020. 2. Russia ONLY committed those tanks with the ARENA APS to the war while the T-80BVM not equipped are “elsewhere”. At this time I feel we should leave BOTH these tanks in and go with thought #2 as there is no evidence to the contrary.
https://tass.com/defense/1098733

UKRAINE/ADD/T-80BVM (32) +)/COPY/REVISED RUSSIAN UNIT 048/PVR MAR04-DEC22 2022/START/AUG 2022/NEAR PEER/UKRAINIAN UNIT 046. //

RUSSIA/DELETE/T-90A/UNIT 052/PER REFS T-90A ONLY EQUIPPED WITH SHORTORA-1 VIRSS SYSTEM.// “T-90A also has a laser warning system and an aerosol-generating system that uses 3D17 grenades of 902A Tucha (Cloud) designation.”

UKRAINE/ADD/T-90A (12) +/COPY/RUSSIAN UNIT 051/ERA/VERFY KONTAKT-5/ERA NUMBERS LOOK HIGH FOR IT/PVR FEB27-SEP30/START/JUL 2022/NEAR PEER/UKRAINIAN UNIT 064. //
https://www.armyrecognition.com/russ...ical_data.html
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/t90.htm
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/bu...er-syria-53907

******ORNX would report that there are currently 180 Unknown tank: Variants (Mine-Based on placement on the list, I’ll assume these cover all T-80 and T-90 types.) which they haven’t been able to classify with 165 Destroyed/10 Damaged/3 Damaged & Abandoned and 2 Abandoned.
I call this again journalistic “integrity”. ******


Page 5
Russian Captured APCs
UKRAINE/ADD/BTR-82A (122)/COPY/RUSSIAN UNIT 700/PVR FEB28 2022-JAN02 2023/START/JUN 2022. // The advantages should be obvious for the Ukrainians here the armor is heavier than most of their wheeled APC’s and I don’t believe they have any APC type with a TI/GSR 50.
https://postlmg.cc/xqKNpbWM
(This was a little unusual from ALL the pictures I looked at as it came with a story.)
https://weaponsystems.net/system/123-BTR-82
https://odin.tradoc.army.mil/mediawi...l_Carrier_(APC)
https://www.military-today.com/apc/btr_82.htm

UKRAINE/ADD/BMD-4M (11)/COPY/RUSSIAN UNIT 668 (or 341)/PVR MAR-APR 2022/START/MAY 2022/NEAR PEER/UKRAINIAN UNITS 333 & 345. //Heavier weapons package against both. As compared to Peer Unit 333 its better protected. Against Peer Unit 345 its FCS is almost superior.
http://www.military-today.com/apc/bmd_4m.htm
https://www.armyrecognition.com/russ..._pictures.html

****** ORNX Reports Infantry Fighting Vehicles (1912, of which destroyed: 1210, damaged: 46, abandoned: 77, captured: 577) ******

UKRAINE/ADD/BTR-80A (61)/COPY/RUSSIAN UNIT 211/PVR MAR04-DEC06 2022/START/AUG 2022 /NEAR PEER/UKRAINIAN UNIT 307. // Again this unit is better than its Ukrainian counterpart with its weapons configuration and heavier armor by offering a HEAT package.
https://weaponsystems.net/system/122-BTR-80A
https://www.armyrecognition.com/russ...icle_data.html
http://www.military-today.com/apc/btr_80a.htm

****** ORNX Reports Armoured Personnel Carriers (289, of which destroyed: 177, damaged: 5, abandoned: 12, captured: 95) ******

This concludes my Ukrainian capture list of Russian armor.

ODDS AND ENDS

UKRAINE/ADD/T-55S/ORIGIN/SLOVINIA/NO OOB/NEW BUILD/START JAN 2022/END DEC 2025/CREW 4/CARRY 0/SPEED 50 km/h/SWIM 0/EW 4 VRISS/RADIO 90/VISION TI/GSR 40/MG/105mm RO L7/RDS 36 (+UK SUPPLIED)/COAX 7.62mm/RDS 2800/ROOF 12.7mm (KORD?)/RDS 250 READY/NO ATGW/FC 45/LRF 22/STABILISER 4 OR 5/SURVIVABILITY 5/ NOTE: FCS HAS HUNTER KILLER FULL CAPIBILTY/NOTE: TO ASSIST IN NEXT VALUES USED UKRAINIAN UNITS 014 & 073 BASELINE/STEEL HF 50 HS 12 HR 6 TF 50 TS 18 TOP 10/HEAT 55 HS 15 HR 8/10 TF 55 TS 18 TOP 10/NOTE: THE CLOSEST MATCH IN TIME AND HAVING THE SUPER BLAZER ERA IS GB UNIT 062 CHALLENGER TES/ERA HF 15 HS 15 HR 4 TF 15 TS 15 TOP 10/UKRAINIAN SLAT ARMOR ON TANK REAR AREA see Ref 4/ROF 6.//I accept some of the above might change but I’ve done the best I can with the very limited information out there. The SUPER BLAZER ERA is (Page 6) stout even by today’s standards unsure what ERA Ukraine added or where. But you normally don’t go backwards.
SP and SPAA Developments Tread Post #240
https://militaryleak.com/2022/09/21/...ks-to-ukraine/
https://mezha.media/en/2022/09/20/th...-armed-forces/
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/produc...of%20the%20jet.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...ks/ar-AA15WpCv
(This ref justifies START/UNIT IN TRAINING/Lead picture shows rear SLAT ARMOR “The new photos reveal recent additions to the M-55Ss: explosive reactive armor and slat armor on the hulls.”)

USMC/CHANGE/ALL FEP-T/UNITS 846, 847, 848, 849, 851 & 852/REMOVE CIWS TROPHY APS. // There were only 2-5 USMC M1A1 tanks involved in a joint test with the USA involving the “Proof of Concept” to determine the feasibility and testing of the TROPHY APS and to address any compatibility issues in mating our systems to it. The tests were successful HOWEVER the USMC was already in the beginning stages of PLAN 2030 which as we know now had the tanks near or at the top of the list to remove.
The USA proceeded onward and in a manner of speaking so did the USMC in preparing to send their tanks back to the USA and “Sun setting” all their armor and maintenace support units. As you will see below the “timeline” doesn't support APS.
https://www.defense-aerospace.com/us...-for-m1-tanks/
https://armyrecognition.com/april_20..._21504162.html
15 October 2019…
https://www.joint-forces.com/defence...y-aps-delivery
24 March 2020…
https://www.popularmechanics.com/mil...e-corps-tanks/
(Note front of the turret. No APS Sensor.)
21 JULY 2020…
https://www.businessinsider.com/mari...talions-2020-7
(Note the caption of top picture and turret as well.)
06 DEC 2020…
https://news.yahoo.com/tank-marines-...131331371.html
(Original Military.com article. Note picture same as above.)
08 January 2021…
https://www.defenceprocurementintern...d-leonardo-drs

I was going to do a little more here, but as my “Marine Buddy” knows I’ve been sitting on this for about 3 years now. Why now well assuming Andy and Don are still willing, it won’t be long before we’ll be “sun setting” ourselves. IF all goes well, you have to remember after this Patch, there’ll ONLY AT BEST THREE LEFT the FINAL one WITH Andy, Don and GOD willing WILL BE THE 2025-2026 Campaign (And besides Don, I know a special handful of others understand why I’ve called it a CAMPAIGN all these years.)

Lastly, I want to THANK Suhiir for trusting me after discussing it, to allow to build those tanks initially and some other things she ALLOWED me to do in her OOB (Don’t kid yourselves, it’s hers alright!) of course, there was a downside because we ended up having to redo to some extent almost every ABRAMS in the game in the 2019/2020 Campaign.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Another Day for Part 2, on my day off and I'm dealing with a work-related time sensitive issue that needs my attention.
Retirement anyone!?! Can't wait.

[DRG]

Pat, is there anything info in the post above I have not already been given?

[Suhiir]

USMC/CHANGE/ALL FEP-T/UNITS 846, 847, 848, 849, 851 & 852/REMOVE CIWS TROPHY APS. //[/B] There were only 2-5 USMC M1A1 tanks involved in a joint test with the USA involving the “Proof of Concept” to determine the feasibility and testing of the TROPHY APS and to address any compatibility issues in mating our systems to it. The tests were successful HOWEVER the USMC was already in the beginning stages of PLAN 2030 which as we know now had the tanks near or at the top of the list to remove.
The USA proceeded onward and in a manner of speaking so did the USMC in preparing to send their tanks back to the USA and “Sun setting” all their armor and maintenace support units. As you will see below the “timeline” doesn't support APS.
https://www.defense-aerospace.com/us...-for-m1-tanks/
https://armyrecognition.com/april_20..._21504162.html
15 October 2019…
https://www.joint-forces.com/defence...y-aps-delivery
24 March 2020…
https://www.popularmechanics.com/mil...e-corps-tanks/
(Note front of the turret. No APS Sensor.)
21 JULY 2020…
https://www.businessinsider.com/mari...talions-2020-7
(Note the caption of top picture and turret as well.)
06 DEC 2020…
https://news.yahoo.com/tank-marines-...131331371.html
(Original Military.com article. Note picture same as above.)
08 January 2021…
https://www.defenceprocurementintern...d-leonardo-drs

Most of the links aren't working.

As we discussed the USMC never had enough TROPHY systems to outfit all their tanks. But did (usually) mount them on those assigned to MEUs or deployed overseas. So for the sake of "probable" vice "possible" I didn't bother with a non-TROPHY variant.
The same pretty much applies here. PLAN 2030 was implemented when there was no USMC armor deployed anywhere, except the currently active MEUs (i.e. all of four (4) tanks per MEU). So if you saw a tank in actual combat it probably had TROPHY. Any "what if" scenario or Player vs AI/player battle should, in my opinion, be based on "probable' vice "possible'. Thus the TROPHY systems stay in place.
Besides which creating units/formations/picklists to model 2-years of the 80-year period WinSPMBT covers (all of 2.5% of the 80-years) is FAR more trouble then it's worth. Had it been say 8-years that would be a different story :smirk:

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

As I had even in years past, it's always been my posted intention to repost from the "Patch Thread" the items submitted to their respective equipment threads so the players can comment as they wish once all the issues have been hashed out between us.

Just haven't always done it is all.

Except for the FLW 200 issue we discussed in advance to me posting it we're done.

To FEP, yes, we discussed maintaining the non-TROPHY FEP tanks due to an opening created by a couple of articles talking about tanks in pre-deployment locations and that was being generous at best on our part.

You and I even posted on the fact that we saw no TROPHY SYSTEMS mounted on any USMC tanks being shipped back to the Army.

Would you like for me to find it??

But you along with a small handful of others SHOULD know if TROPHY APS mounted on those tanks than when I built them they would've been submitted as such.

So, I leave you with the following and the understanding I have plenty more if needed. From 25 September 2020...
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2020/09/the-u-s-marine-corps-has-divested-in-their-tanks-well-what-does-that-mean/
"The U.S. Marine Corps Were (Mine-WERE) Upgrading their M1A1s

According to Marine Times, the Marine Corps were (Mine-WERE again) in the process of upgrading their M1A1s with:

A slew-to-cue feature that allows the Tank Commander to move the 120mm main gun to where the Commander’s .50cal heavy machine gun is pointed to.

Improved Gunner’s Primary Sight Day and thermal cameras that allows for better resolution and to see further out. A new color camera and color display that allows for better color differentiation than the previous green and black color camera and display.

A new Gunner’s lower panel that allows the M1A1s to use two new types of ammunition developed by the U.S. Army.

New tactical communications radios."

And no TROPHY mentioned. This upgrade boils down to they would've had improved TI/GSR and Ammo that's all. I actually was tracking on this since the FEP tanks lead me down the "rabbit hole" that lead to all things ABRAMS during the 2019/2020 Oh I don't miss it Campaign as I'm sure Don doesn't miss it either. But in the end the CORPS shut me down.

That I'll have to "cull" from the MBT Thread and reverse it into well you know where.

TROPHY has me all fired up now. So, here's the timeline from the Contract section... :rolleyes:

"July 21/20: Active Protection System-Trophy General Dynamic Land Systems won a $44.4 million contract modification external link to procure improved fire control electronics units in support of the Abrams expedited active protection system-trophy. M1A1/2 Abrams main battle tank is manufactured by General Dynamics Land Systems (GDLS). The first M1 tank was produced in 1978, the M1A1 in 1985 and the M1A2 in 1986. Army and Marine units intend to use Trophy APS-equipped Abrams main battle tanks to disrupt/destroy certain classes of enemy fire while safely maneuvering across the full range of military operations. Work will take place in Tallahassee, Florida. Estimated completion date is October 1, 2022.
https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/digital-abrams-the-m1a2-sep-program-updated-02834/"

Now here's the inconvenient truth to go with the above this reference looks at the progress made up to April 2021...
"After the March 2020 release of Force Design 2030, Commandant of the Marine Corps Gen. David Berger today released an annual update to the document that lays out the progress already made and the steps still to come, as the service continues to learn more about what it will need to deter evolving threats in the Pacific and around the globe."

Scroll down to Page 4 Ground Combat Element "Bullet 6"
"Completed the divestment of 2 AC (Mine-Active Component) and 1 RC (Mine-Reserve Component) tank battalions."

That's all your tanks gone in one year! And no one can say this "squares" with the DID ref above that the USMC had non-test bed/operational tanks equipped with TROPHY. Not even "Father Time" can change that timeline.
https://news.usni.org/2021/04/26/marines-update-force-design-2030-after-a-year-of-experimentation-in-the-field
https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/20689736/force-design-2030.pdf
(Page 4 Bullet 6)

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[Suhiir]

Neither the MPF (Mobile Protected Firepower Light Tank) nor ARV (Advanced Reconnaissance Vehicle) are in the active OOB since they're both "possible" not "probable" nor is there any indication of when they might be employed.

However you'll see the new OOB does have the new mini-drone (thanks to Don and Andy) incorporated into it.
"Much the way the service says every Marine is a rifleman, every Marine is now a sensor, and every system they use must be able to sense and pass that data to whoever needs it most, Smith said."
Not near as many as Force Design 2030 will have (one per infantry squad, the main reason for the new 15-man squad) but one per platoon (more then enough for game purposes). The AI won't be terribly effective using these, but a human will have little trouble seeing what's where across the entire battlefield.
Talk about a Gods Eye view!

"Infantry battalion experimentation is still early in the process, Watson said, but the plan is to increase the rank structure in some of the small units and compare their performance against traditionally manned units.

Part of the need for more experience is driven by an 'arms room' concept, where instead of each Marine specializing in a particular weapon system, and having separate weapons company to bring in further capability, the infantry Marines would be a little more well rounded and able to operate whichever weapon the situation calls for.

We seek to enhance the infantry battalion’s capabilities by adding organic multi-domain sensing (Operations in the Information Environment, Electronic Warfare, and Unmanned Aircraft Systems) capabilities, organic loitering munitions, and increased mobility. One of the changes being evaluated is a shift to an ‘arms room’ concept with the elimination of Weapons Company and the shift of weapons systems formerly associated with Weapons Company, 81mm mortars and the Javelin for example, into the headquarters or rifle companies. This will allow the rifle company to select mission-specific lethality and employ it organically, reads the Force Design annual update."

Where they're going to get all these senior NCOs if they're having trouble with recruiting and retention is beyond me. And the cost of training and maintaining such a force structure will be immense!!! One Javelin missile costs $197,884 and they want to move them from specialized units down to the company level?!?

Without getting into it here I still think the current Commandant has bought into the US Air Force delusion of push button warfare.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Fear not my Marine Buddy, I know where those Senior NCOs can be found.

Starship Troopers that's where they are!!!!
https://www.spacecom.mil/Newsroom/News/Article-Display/Article/2415093/marine-corps-commandant-directs-activation-of-space-service-component/

And I have the evidence and I believe we should qualify, and I have my security clearance as well and you'll just need to get adjudicated.

I think we should go in on the "Buddy System"!?! :cool:

First we have to apply...
https://www.marines.mil/News/Messages/Messages-Display/Article/2830868/soliciting-nominations-for-the-fy22-national-security-space-institute-courses/

Next, we'll train unfortunately that'll be under the USA...
https://taskandpurpose.com/news/marine-corps-army-space-marines/

Finally, we'll get advanced combat training with our units under simulated real combat situations though the very high "wash out rate" seems somewhat of what might be of a permanent nature but, I'm confident we'll get through.

A friend of mine told of a "black site" that has a secretly video sourced film of the USMC Space Command Advanced Training Center Course (USCATC) at what appears to be 29 Palms Training Center.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?&q=starship+troopers+videos&docid=603492288649911466&mid=577562ACCC915EAED886577562ACCC915EAED886&view=detail&FORM=VDQVAP&rvsmid=0DCF953B2A3EA1BA36EF0DCF953B2A3EA1BA36EF&ajaxhist=0

We just need to :fire: get sum :fire:!!



I can't wait until we get our very own embroidered USCATC ball cap!!!!

That's better than working at NASA!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[Suhiir]

And I have the evidence and I believe we should qualify, and I have my security clearance as well and you'll just need to get adjudicated.

I think we should go in on the "Buddy System"!?! :cool:

Oh I have mine. And unless you were working with crypto, hands on with nukes, or the reactor it may be higher then yours :D

I do however think we both "might" need an age waver.


Next, we'll train unfortunately that'll be under the USA...
https://taskandpurpose.com/news/marine-corps-army-space-marines/

Might be a bit rough for most squids but based on past dealings with the USA I generally consider training with/under them a bit of a vacation. Worry not, I'll help pull you thru. :happy:


Finally, we'll get advanced combat training with our units under simulated real combat situations though the very high "wash out rate" seems somewhat of what might be of a permanent nature but, I'm confident we'll get through.

As I recall during WW II the Germans considered a 5% fatality rate during training acceptable. And while the SEALS do their very best to keep theirs down (and under wraps) you an I both know given the nature of their training it happens. So no big deal.


A friend of mine told of a "black site" that has a secretly video sourced film of the USMC Space Command Advanced Training Center Course (USCATC) at what appears to be 29 Palms Training Center.
Given the location of 29 Stumps in relation to certain USAF black sites seems like a good place to put it.

[DRG]

US to begin training Ukrainian troops on Abrams tank

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/us-begin-training-ukrainian-troops-abrams-tanks-rcna80799

RThe United States will begin training Ukrainian forces on how to use and maintain Abrams tanks in the coming weeks, as the it continues to speed up its effort to get them onto the battlefield against Russia as quickly as possible, U.S. officials said Friday.

The decision comes as defense leaders from around Europe and the world are meeting at Ramstein Air Base in Germany in the ongoing effort to coordinate the delivery of weapons and other equipment to Ukraine. An announcement is expected later Friday.

According to the officials, 31 tanks will arrive at Grafenwoehr Training Area in Germany at the end of May, and the troops will begin training a couple of weeks later. Officials said the troop training will last about 10 weeks. The training tanks will not be the ones given to Ukraine as it fights against Russia’s invasion. Instead, 31 M1A1 battle tanks are being refurbished in the United States, and those will go to the frontlines when they are ready.

The goal has been to have the troops trained by the time the refurbished tanks are ready so they can then immediately move to combat. The tanks are being refitted to meet Ukraine’s needs.

According to officials, about 250 Ukrainian troops will be trained — with some learning to operate the tanks and others learning to repair and maintain them. Additional training on how to fight and maneuver with the tanks could also be provided after the initial 10 weeks. The officials spoke on the condition of anonymity to provide details not publicly released.


So training starts mid June and lasts 10 weeks and that brings just basic training to the beginning of September and then there is additional training.... then they have to actually get the tanks.

Going to go with 11/123 start and let reality make adjustments later

[DRG]

The Jerusalem Post


Russia fires on Ukrainian forces with new T-14 Armata battle tanks
Story by By REUTERS • 3h ago

Russia has begun using its new T-14 Armata battle tanks to fire on Ukrainian positions "but they have not yet participated in direct assault operations," the RIA state news agency reported on Tuesday, quoting a source close to the matter.


We have assembled SPWW2 and are doing our final checks. Then we will start assembling MBT.

The start date now for the T-14 Armata was pushed back to the middle of 2025 based on the info available up until today......

If anyone finds anything else on this let us know ASAP please

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

The following is reporting they are "tooling around" in former Ukrainian territory. Also, these are their OP Test units.

"According to the Russian Press Agency RIA, the T-14 Armata tanks have been equipped with additional armor on their sides (That indicates the T-14 isn't such a "vaunted" tank as previously thought.) , and their crews have undergone "combat coordination" exercises at training facilities within Ukraine."

Nothing here about combat at this point.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_april_2023_global_security_army_indus try/russian_army_initiates_t-14_armata_tank_deployment_in_ukraine.html

JANE'S reporting anything at this time.

Work!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

It would appear that they are doing front-line testing perhaps using them as SP arty which is possible and certainly one way to test systems

There will NO DOUBT be new info within a week of release but that will be true every week until this is over so the start date in the game for the T-14 is 4/123 and players can make up their own minds to use them or not

[blazejos]

Russian also publicize a alleged short few secounds movie of T-14 from front-line here:
https://mil.in.ua/en/news/russia-claims-that-the-t-14-armata-tanks-are-being-used-in-ukraine/
https://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and_tech/russian_media_a_new_t_14_armata_mbt_is_already_on_ the_battlefield_in_ukraine-6509.html

[DRG]

No more changes will be made to the OOB's this year and the installers are built. The last thing I did with MBT was change was the T-14 start date so time will tell what we guessed right or wrong. One thing I guessed was Ukraine will be putting ERA onto it's western Tanks...time will tell if that is correct.

The updates for both games should be hopefully posted within the next week

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Well the one item that was "up in the air" was Frances contrbution this was actually announced as settled by the same a few days back.

I'm sorry I couldn't get it posted in time, but we have closure on it now for the next time. The Union asked for my assistance to formalize items for our CBA as we're in a contract year. Not in the union but knew I had some experience in these matters and it ended up being a bigger project then I thought.

Again, my apologies.

All tanks delivered or about to be as of today.

Slovenia also I believe "fell through the cracks" with M-84.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_april_2023_global_security_army_indus try/list_of_the_808_tanks_that_ukraine_will_receive_fr om_nato_allies_with_a_part_already_delivered.html

Leave everything as is since we knew we'd have to make "adjustments" later.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[Suhiir]

I feel sorry for the Ukrainian maintenance people.

[DRG]

Anyone who really wants them can make the "adjustment" themselves when the update is released in a day or two and activate Ukraine unit 24 whenever/ IF ever they actually arrive.

I am NOT rebuilding two installers again for what reads as indefinite speculation and then guessing when or if they might/maybe make it to the front

What's in there now is what's in there now and only finding a massive error will get them rebuilt again

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

After reading the following, I'm feeling much better about my LEOPARD 1A5DK submission in terms of the modifications made.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_may_2023_global_security_army_industr y/ukrainian_soldiers_already_training_on_leopard_1a5 _tanks_donated_by_denmark.html
"These include upgraded armor protection, improved suspension and tracks, and a new fire control system."

The above also gives us a first look at the early "refurbished" tanks and would appear that they've thus far done a commendable job so far.

The "training" tanks from what I can piece together should represent somewhere around the first 15 to 20 tanks at this time.

At that pace and the fact, they probably were in better shape (As already addressed some might need deep overhauls to include the complete replacement of the power plants (Again as I already brought up, how can you NOT turn over your engines for over 10 years!?! :doh:)

I still feel it'll be sometime this Fall before they become operational from refurbishment and combined arms training such as the T-55S went through from Nov. 22 - late Mar. 2023.

And again for the last time for these posts and equipment issues it is FULLY understood that we might have to make date changes "down the road" as we can't control the supply (Overall in a broad sense.) and training afterwards type issues.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

...and by then we'll know if the Ukrainians did add ERA to the NATO supplied tanks and hopefully what type was used if they did

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

And I totally agree with yours above. Time will be the "arbitrator" for the now speculated.

Also,
“In the first Gulf War, in 1991 for example, the American and British tanks were knocking out Iraqi T-55s from 23 kilometers,” Delaney said.

“We’ve got multiple pieces of evidence that Russian industry, which had been given access to Western technology in the 90s, is really suffering from the restrictions,” Taylor said. “We’re hearing about them taking chips out of washing machines. And when you’re doing that, then you’re really obviously in quite a bit of difficulty. ”

“I think faced with Western weapons, the Russians must expect very heavy casualties if they expect to move forward using the T-55 system,” Taylor said. “It’s a move of desperation to be using weapons of that vintage. ”


Admiral Samuel Paparo: We call it the Decade of Concern. We've seen a tenfold increase in the size of the PRC Navy.

Norah O'Donnell: Technically speaking, the Chinese now have the largest navy in the world, in terms of number of ships, correct?

Admiral Samuel Paparo: Yes. Yes.

Norah O'Donnell: Do the numbers matter?

Admiral Samuel Paparo: Yes. As the saying goes, "Quantity has a quality all its own."


"Norah O'Donnell: How much more advanced is U.S. submarine technology than Chinese capability?

Admiral Samuel Paparo: A generation.

Norah O'Donnell: A generation.

Admiral Samuel Paparo: And-- by generation, think 10 or 20 years. But broadly, I don't really talk in depth about submarine capabilities. It's the silent service."

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

And I totally agree with yours above. Time will be the "arbitrator" for the now speculated and the truth.

Also,
“In the first Gulf War, in 1991 for example, the American and British tanks were knocking out Iraqi T-55s from 23 kilometers,” Delaney said.

“We’ve got multiple pieces of evidence that Russian industry, which had been given access to Western technology in the 90s, is really suffering from the restrictions,” Taylor said. “We’re hearing about them taking chips out of washing machines. And when you’re doing that, then you’re really obviously in quite a bit of difficulty. ”

“I think faced with Western weapons, the Russians must expect very heavy casualties if they expect to move forward using the T-55 system,” Taylor said. “It’s a move of desperation to be using weapons of that vintage. ”

From a recent 60 Minutes interview:
Admiral Samuel Paparo (COMPACFLT): We call it the Decade of Concern. We've seen a tenfold increase in the size of the PRC Navy.

Norah O'Donnell: Technically speaking, the Chinese now have the largest navy in the world, in terms of number of ships, correct?

Admiral Samuel Paparo: Yes. Yes.

Norah O'Donnell: Do the numbers matter?

Admiral Samuel Paparo: Yes. As the saying goes, "Quantity has a quality all its own. (Russia throughout its modern military history has ALWAYS operated on this simple principle.) "
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russia-is-sending-museum-pieces-into-war-but-experts-say-they-may-still-be-effective/ar-AA1aSME2?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=3eee1079cdda4f7fb9ba13a084a2ad7a&ei=36

And from earlier in the interview:

"Norah O'Donnell: How much more advanced is U.S. submarine technology than Chinese capability?

Admiral Samuel Paparo: A generation.

Norah O'Donnell: A generation.

Admiral Samuel Paparo: And-- by generation, think 10 or 20 years. But broadly, I don't really talk in depth about submarine capabilities. It's the silent service. "

Because I can!?! :D

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[Suhiir]

“In the first Gulf War, in 1991 for example, the American and British tanks were knocking out Iraqi T-55s from 23 kilometers,” Delaney said.
23 .... what planet was this on?
As a sailor (well ... bubblehead ... not your typical bluejacket) you know as well as I do an object would need to be apx. 33m high to even be seen at 23km due to the earth curvature. I guess Iraqi T-55s are REALLY big tanks!
Tho I suppose the American/Brit tanks could have been siting atop a sand dune ;)


Admiral Samuel Paparo: Yes. As the saying goes, "Quantity has a quality all its own. (Russia throughout its modern military history has ALWAYS operated on this simple principle.) "
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russia-is-sending-museum-pieces-into-war-but-experts-say-they-may-still-be-effective/ar-AA1aSME2?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=3eee1079cdda4f7fb9ba13a084a2ad7a&ei=36
Yes, yes it does.
BUT there are limits.
I seriously doubt a Roman Legion could defeat a modern USMC infantry platoon (apx 44-50 people) IF it had enough ammo and a decent position to defend.

[DRG]

Here's your ROTFLMAO for the day......

https://www.jpost.com/international/article-743216#:~:text=Kadyrov%20wrote%20on%20Telegram%2C% 20alongside,%22



Russian Chechen Republic leader Ramzan Kadyrov asserted the superiority of upgraded Russian T-72 main battle tanks (MBT) to the US M1 Abrams on Tuesday, after a Monday announcement that Ukrainian soldiers were to soon train on the American MBT.

Kadyrov said that the Abrams was like a children's pedal car, and that the improved version of the T-72 was "real power."

The T-72 "surpasses foreign equipment in combat power, control, protection and ease of use. With it, any attack is like fishing on a yacht – a pleasure!" Kadyrov wrote on Telegram, alongside a video of him riding in the armored vehicle's turret.

"On such a tank we will enter Kyiv and carry out denazification, simultaneously splitting the Abrams like nuts! "

so far it's not working out quite that way..........

https://s4.reutersmedia.net/resources/r/?m=02&d=20220420&t=2&i=1597571287&w=780&fh=&fw=&ll=&pl=&sq=&r=2022-04-20T202111Z_18429_MRPRC21RT9JN1RJ_RTRMADP_0_UKRAINE-CRISIS

https://i0.wp.com/asiatimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/Russia-Tank-Ukraine-War.png?fit=1200%2C710&ssl=1

https://www.nationalreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/russian-rust-25.jpg?fit=1481%2C864

[zovs66]

I have first hand experience with T-72s (don't know the models we encountered) and the T-55's (same on the models) versus our M1A1 tanks in Iraq and Kuwait.

To put it nicely, the T-55's are piles of junk and coffin for four brother and no match to any modern western tank built since 1980.

The T-72s are piles of useless metal scraps when faced by M1A1s.

If the Ukraine's get M1A2's then the Soviets, sorry I mean the Russian's stand no chance.

I am biased but I don't think the T-80s, T-90s or even the T-14s stand any chance against either US crewed M1A1s or any well trained M1A2 crew.

So far the only two things the Russians have excelled at are human waves causing mass casualties like WW2 1941 and 1942. Lots of noise and shaking with WW2 style artillery. Oh three things, turning their entire tank force into burnt out rusted landmarks on the Ukrainian soil.

[Suhiir]

https://s4.reutersmedia.net/resources/r/?m=02&d=20220420&t=2&i=1597571287&w=780&fh=&fw=&ll=&pl=&sq=&r=2022-04-20T202111Z_18429_MRPRC21RT9JN1RJ_RTRMADP_0_UKRAINE-CRISIS


I have to wonder if the Russians get the joke :cool:

[DRG]

I have to wonder if the Russians get the joke :cool:

Only if they saw the movie.........:D

I thought it was a nice touch. Obviously, someone in Ukraine has watched it. Betting quite a few have

[DRG]

https://www.nationalreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/russian-rust-25.jpg?fit=1481%2C864[


What I got from that was I should make the turret rings bigger........

...and the new green and grey blended make a close approximation of the green that is not burnt off


I tried a little experiment..... then got more creative:)

Rev
https://i.imgur.com/frqdz2L.png

All colours are game palette

[blazejos]

We laugh many times from T-54/55 taken to battlefield but looks like tactics of their usage by Russians is different than MBT. They using them as mobile SP guns and use to shelling Ukrainians position indirectly and as is said here this tactics is probably best usage for this obsolete tanks.

https://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and_tech/old_t_55_and_t_62_tanks_are_applied_by_russians_as _assault_guns_and_they_are_effective-6797.html

[DRG]

We laugh many times from T-54/55 taken to battlefield but looks like tactics of their usage by Russians is different than MBT. They using them as mobile SP guns and use to shelling Ukrainians position indirectly and as is said here this tactics is probably best usage for this obsolete tanks.

https://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and_tech/old_t_55_and_t_62_tanks_are_applied_by_russians_as _assault_guns_and_they_are_effective-6797.html




If that turns out to be the main use for these then we could put them in an indirect fire Unitclass......unfortunately there are no spare ones in the Russian OOB so they would have to be put in with real SP guns


.......and yes, keeping them away from direct engagement with modern tanks is a smart thing to do

[blazejos]

I tried a little experiment..... then got more creative:)

Here article about this towers of T-72 even with movie from Chinese TV from Mariupol.

https://en.defence-ua.com/media/illustration/articles/9466478fa40e0a5d.jpg

https://en.defence-ua.com/news/warspotting_community_reveals_statistics_and_insig hts_on_turret_ejections_and_t_72bs_remarkable_perf ormance-6887.html

[DRG]

FORBES
As Tank Losses Top 2,000, Russia Is Deploying Museum-Grade T-72s From 1974


The latest Russian museum tank to roll into combat is the T-72 Ural

A 1974-vintage T-72 Ural might look a lot like a T-72B3 from 2023. But on the inside, it’s a totally different—and much cruder—vehicle. One that’s only marginally better than a T-55, and actually inferior to many T-62 models.

It’s unclear how many Urals Uralvagonzavod produced, how many are in storage and how many of those are recoverable. There might be a thousand old Urals lying around, but it’s possible just a few hundred are intact after five decades of hot-cold, wet-dry cycles.


https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2023/06/01/as-tank-losses-top-2000-russia-is-deploying-museum-grade-t-72s-from-1974/?sh=681761506efc

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Well the first 'Western" equipment loses are in. If you don't want to read the whole article which has good info, just proceed to the last para. It seems the AMX question is now resolved.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/ukraine_-_russia_conflict_war_2022/first_48_hours_of_ukrainian_counter-offensive_see_unprecedented_loss_of_leopard_2a6_ta nks_bradley_ifvs.htm

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qSXAaQc7EI

[Karagin]

Seems the US Army is getting this:

https://www.defensenews.com/land/2023/06/10/us-armys-new-combat-vehicle-named-for-soldiers-killed-in-iraq-wwii/

[Karagin]

And then this came out after the little debacle from the other day:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=la2q0EBUwE0&pp=wgIGCgQQAhgB

Take from it what you want or will...

[DRG]

Nothing is invincible and an arty strike as described is re-creatable in the game
https://i.imgur.com/n2leJYC.png

EDIT

An observation I read which makes a good point.
Note there are no arty impact craters near those vehicles

https://www.armyrecognition.com/images/stories/conflict/russia_invasion_ukraine/First_48_hours_of_Ukrainian_counter-offensive_see_unprecedented_loss_of_Leopard_2A6_tn aks_and_Bradley_IFVs_925_001.jpg

the tracks hit show mines were the issue. and they have run over mines after the vehicles went through. so probably artillery delivered mines.




EDIT

However, that does not explain the BMR-2 wreck........ so this may be the result of a combination of factors

[Karagin]

I agree nothing is invincible, but too many believe that Western military equipment is or is to the point that it would take similar equipment to take it out. That is because the MIC PR machines have done a fantastic job of selling things. Add in other video games that show tanks like the M1 as these unstoppable machines, and you get the point I am driving at. At least here on this forum, we deal with reason. In other places, yeah anything pointed out that explains why the stuff was destroyed/damaged, etc...and it's like WWF/WWE match.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

YOU WILL FIND IT INTERESTING THAT THE BELOW LINK I POSTED IN MY LAST HAS BEEN REMOVED FROM THE WEBSITE. OBVOISLY, THEY FOUND SOMETHING WRONG WITH IT.

FALSE FLAG? THEY GIVE NO REASON UNLESS YOU CAN READ FRENCH WHEN YOU CLICK ON IT BELOW.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/ukra...adley_ifvs.htm

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

If you google

first_48_hours_of_ukrainian_counter-offensive_see_unprecedented_loss_of_leopard_2a6_ta nks_bradley_ifvs

you will find the article

[MarkSheppard]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7h6JrNdfgY

1~ minute of Leopard 2s engaging like it's 1943.

[DRG]

There was one comment...........

... to see a German tank with a German cross painted on top fighting in the Ukraine is simply unbelievable.

Yep...it is. Going to say FAKE about this. That was something like WoT. The trees and earth just don't look real enough

Forbes used the same shot

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2023/06/12/ukraine-got-just-21-of-its-best-leopard-2a6-tanks-its-already-lost-three-of-them/?sh=751bb0365931

I am just not convinced that is real

[DRG]

Further

https://i.imgur.com/1woQO5i.png

aside from the colours just not looking real the turret detail see does not quite match up with reality

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/58/Leopard_2A6_tank_-_IL%C3%9C_2012.jpg/1024px-Leopard_2A6_tank_-_IL%C3%9C_2012.jpg


It's close but it just does not ring true for me. Looks more like WoT or War Thunder

[lukerduker123]

Hi, guy that has a modern computer that can run really, REALLY high-end video games here. There's quite a few ways to determine whether this is fake or not, but I'm going to run through just a few of them.

1) Shadows: It's the Year of Our Lord 2023 and computers still have a time and a half trying to render shadows. Sure they're good at rendering big shadows like, say, the silhouette of a tank, but the closer you zoom in the more lines you'll start to see. DRG, that image you posted shows some insanely good shadows. If this was a game like Warthunder at that close a zoom you'd start to see little jagged lines where the shadows are rendering at a lower quality

2) Smoke: Smoke simulation is fun, so much fun in fact that people will spend time and money to not have to deal with it! When smoke is rendered it tends to appears as a sort of texture that expands to fill out a screen. It'll clip through ground and phase out of reality and all sorts of excitingly boring stuff. In the footage shown it.. Doesn't do that. At 0:13 that smoke reacts extremely rapidly, something modern computers aren't really good at

3) Trees: Trees? Trees. Most modern video game trees look horrible up close. They tend to be little tree-like greebles stuck onto a solid object to make it look authentic from far away. The trees at the start of the video? Nope, those are real.

Here's a link showing off some of WarThunder's newest graphics (https://warthunder.com/en/news/7612-development-dagor-engine-6-5-new-graphic-features-en) back in 2002.

Additionally Here is a picture of War Thunder's Leopard 2A6 model (https://wiki.warthunder.com/images/8/83/GarageImage_Leopard_2A6.jpg).
The detail is excellent, but it's missing all of the 'clutter' on the tank in the video. Namely the twigs stuck in the small spaces and a few of the bolts on top of the turret -- things a game would have a real tough time replicating.

Sorry for the derailment here, just figured that with all this talk of modern graphics and AI it's important to recognize what's in a game and what isn't. As it stands? This looks nearly 100% authentic to me, unless someone took time and energy to create an incredibly detailed render of the Leopard 2A6 and design a pixar-quality video around it.

[Karagin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbBX6j4IRCw&feature=share

FYI

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Well, it's been a while since I posted anything out here. So, I'll start with May for at least today. It'll serve as a reminder that there are other countries looking into or improving their own tanks.

ARGENTINA: They have by this time completed testing of the new improved TAM 2CA2 medium tank. I believe I submitted an improved version several years ago. This will be a major improvement with new digital systems to include a much enhanced FCS. A new power plant that gives it a faster game speed both on and off road.
ON MY LIST.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_may_2023_global_security_army_industr y/argentine_defense_minister_supervises_firing_tests _of_prototype_tam_2ca2_medium_tank.html

BRAZIL: It is of course noteworthy that they are looking at the Chinese VT-4 120mm. However, my attention is focused more on the upgrade package put into the LEOPARD 1A5BR which is possibly why they refused to send their tanks to the Ukraine that Germany tried to get based on my earlier reporting.
ON MY LIST
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_may_2023_global_security_army_industr y/brazilian_army_checking_out_chinese_norinco_vt4_ma in_battle_tank.html

CZECH REPUBLIC: The first sentence says it all for the time being. This will be a long process I feel outside of our timeline with more on that following for Germany next. But since this would represent a foreign sales tank, I feel at this moment that the standard German LEOPARD 2A7 might be an appropriate tank possibly with some minor tweaks be representative of a foreign sale LEOPARD 2A8.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_may_2023_global_security_army_industr y/czech_republic_discusses_purchase_of_70_leopard_2a 8_tanks_with_germany.html

GERMANY: As I posted many months back, Germany ranks in the lower middling of European countries in tanks but also in LEOPARD tanks. Production is still ongoing with the LEOPARD 2A7V but the LEOPARD 2A8 will be a further improvement.

Germany has ordered 18 of these tanks with a further possible follow on order for 105 more. I have already outlined the LEOPARD 2A8. I expect these tanks to reach FOC by mid-summer/fall 2024 certainly not a "bulls' eye" on the dart board by any means (Probably early 2025 is BETTER but being a little optimistic is all.) .

If the additional order is picked up, KMW will start production of them in JUNE 2026 at a rate of 2 UNITS per month. So, my best guess from above is just that based on that additional order start date.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_may_2023_global_security_army_industr y/germany_confirms_acquisition_of_18_new_leopard_2a8 _tanks_with_additional_order_of_105_more.html
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_may_2023_global_security_army_industr y/idet_2023_kmw_from_germany_displays_demonstrator_o f_future_leopard_2a8_tank_design.html
ON MY LIST

I see my time is up will try to get the others in later.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

May Part 2...

GREECE: They appear to be starting an upgrade program for their LEOPARD 2A4 tanks. The article shows the first example of this tank. This will warrant further investigation.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_may_2023_global_security_army_industr y/defea_2023_eodh_from_greece_unveils_leopard_2a4_wi th_aspis_modular_ng-mbt.html

NETHERLANDS: It didn't take them long to realize that they made a mistake by getting rid of their tanks. They have been renting the most modern version of the LEOPARD 2A6 since about 2018. I stumbled upon a series of articles that pointed out that the agreement allows the Dutch to use those tanks as needed for national defense. And the unit they are assigned to also regularly holds exercises in the Netherlands.

I intend to submit them whenever the next patch occurs once I identify the right version of the 2A6. I expect when the government makes its decision, they'll pick the LEOPARD 2A7V Export version. They are talking in the sense of forming Battalions of them. Amazing how a war in the "neighborhood" motivates Governments.
ON MY LIST.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_may_2023_global_security_army_industr y/netherlands_wants_to_get_main_battle_tanks_again_f or_its_army.html

ROMANIA: Could be the second operator of the M1A2 Export in Europe. NOTHING has been approved by their government and there doesn't even exist an MOU to start the contract process. We've built the tank already and though I'll be tracking this, I see this as "doubtful" before games end. More likely 2026/2027.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_may_2023_global_security_army_industr y/romanian_army_to_get_54_modernized_m1a2_abrams_tan ks_worth1_billion_euros.html

UKRAINE: Well when you have a huge war chest to buy military equipment it allows you to build your own weapons in this case as pictured that would mean the OPLOT-M. There is another follow-on article in late June or early this month concerning the same.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_may_2023_global_security_army_industr y/ukrainian_ministry_of_defence_confirms_plan_to_ord er_locally-made_t-84_oplot_tanks.html

M1A1 Export: I built this version in the Thread and was not submitted in my last patch. However, it was discussed between Don and me during "our" process, so we have it for both Poland and the Ukraine when they get them or anyone else for that matter.

Before people get all "jacked up" about the next issue, I want to be perfectly clear that they will not get those tanks probably until the late fall as DOD has not changed the timeline for delivery.

As it stands, we've started training about the 2nd week of July as we observe our holidays wherever our troops are serving (And because of the above delivery dates, there's no rush.) We are using our own M1A1 SA (Only one in service with the USA.) AND Crews as part our mission to support our allies.

Training is set to last 10 weeks with completion by mid-September. I'm sure we'll keep them in them until they get theirs unless our unit is scheduled to be elsewhere when the training ends. I'm sure we'll know when the training is finished.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_may_2023_global_security_army_industr y/ukrainian_tank_crews_and_maintainers_to_start_trai ning_on_us_m1a1_abrams_in_germany_soon.html


I believe along with others that it was already posted that the Ukrainians started training in Denmark on the LEOPARD 1A5 DK in the beginning of May.

THIS ALL ON MY LIST

So that's it for May.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[zovs66]

https://defence-blog.com/russian-forces-get-new-batch-of-upgraded-tanks/?amp

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

And to the last, let's not forget about the T-80BVM which is also seeing increased production as posted.

The next I feel couldn't wait because quite frankly we've been waiting on what improvements the Ukrainians would make to the Western tanks they've received.

Well, where it concerns the 47 or so LEOPARD 2A4 tanks the Ukraine operates the answer is they have ERA Kontakt-1. You should based on the picture see quite clearly where it is mounted on the hull.

What you might not notice is that it's also mounted fully on the turret side as well. I bring your attention to the forward 2 block sets of ERA Kontakt-1 and look straight up onto the turret side and you will notice to blocks there in the gap on the camo netting. Also, you can see the same on the aft end of the turret as well.
The way the camo netting is draped over the turret, convinces me it's completely covering the turret side fully.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/ukraine_-_russia_conflict_war_2022/leopard_2a4_main_battle_tanks_with_new_armor_in_se rvice_with_ukrainian_army.html

Tomorrow is Mi-7 in 4-DX! I'm not standing by to just watch the movie as much as waiting to be launched instead. The 4-DX is something to be experienced with the right movie. :cool:

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

............ the 47 or so LEOPARD 2A4 tanks the Ukraine operates the answer is they have ERA Kontakt-1. You should based on the picture see quite clearly where it is mounted on the hull.

What you might not notice is that it's also mounted fully on the turret side as well. I bring your attention to the forward 2 block sets of ERA Kontakt-1 and look straight up onto the turret side and you will notice to blocks there in the gap on the camo netting. Also, you can see the same on the aft end of the turret as well.
The way the camo netting is draped over the turret, convinces me it's completely covering the turret side fully.


Which is what I anticipated would happen and why it was applied in the Ukrainian OOB

[zovs66]

this is another interesting article.

I have several modern campaign games where I honestly think that the Soviet and WP equipment is overrated compared to Western equipment.

https://www.businessinsider.com/ukraine-fixing-weapons-a-priority-western-armor-resilient-russian-fire-2023-7?amp

[zovs66]

Sorry postscript, this is being played out in Ukraine now as we speak (i.e., better Western equipment then Soviet era).

[Suhiir]

<clip>I honestly think that the Soviet and WP equipment is overrated compared to Western equipment.
I recall once being told "The Soviets can make one highly capable thing, but can't mass produce anything". I've long agreed with this.

Soviet equipment is generally "adequate" but very rarely "good". And given Soviet doctrine this makes sense. Waves of units to overwhelm their opposition. You don't need "the best" merely "good enough" because there's so much of it the opponent can't destroy enough of it fast enough to win.

This is NOT to imply the stereotypical "human wave" approach, of uncaring use of poorly equipped (trained?) units thrown into the meat-grinder. Again, their equipment was "adequate".

It was never on par with that of the "West". In spite of claims/delusions to the contrary.

Are there exceptions? Certainly. Was Soviet equipment occasionally "ground-breaking"? Definitely! (Mass use of the AK47 before the West started using "assault rifles" comes to mind.)

[Karagin]

Okay, hold on. Having seen Western stuff in action and having seen the one part we don't see in Ukraine when the US sends us out to fight, the MIC sends their techs with us. In other words, the folks who know how the crap works are there to make sure it works. That is not to say the mechanics or techs the US military has can't keep it running, that they can do.

What this means, is that these techs are there to make sure the wonder weapons keep work as they were sold as or claimed to work as. Go take a hard look at ever single ABCT and you will see BAE and GDLS techs there working right along side the Army-trained mechanics to keep things running and ready to go. Same in the Air Force and the rest.

Remove those civilian contractors and I am willing to bet our stuff won't be that wonder or superior for long. While it's great to believe in our stuff, let's be realistic about things. We are not ten feet tall nor is our stuff perfect. Remember everything we have is made by the lowest bidder who is looking to make a quick buck or ten. And I can back up my comments with 31 years of dealing with armor and infantry and support units.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Well, kind've deals with the previous comments as I turn to the "vaunted" T-14 ARMATA.

Has anyone besides me noticed we haven't heard a darn thing about the ARMATA since early May when apparently the 14 sent into "combat" were used in an artillery role which was unverified except by Moscow?

Or prior to that which has been verified even by Moscow that the frontline units that were assigned to use them basically found the tanks flawed in many aspects of operations and sent them back?

You should've as I know I posted articles related to both issues along with a handful of others.

I haven't checked but I suspect we have them operational which would make that a travesty.

Well, we have the first news of them since about May. Moscow has withdrawn them for "unspecified" reasons only saying that "testing is still ongoing" so they are gone and never were spotted on the battlefield.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russia-withdraws-game-changing-t-14-armata-tank-after-brief-frontline-run/ar-AA1ehOWv?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=5b3e5b238fbf453b8e77c5009e273c6c&ei=19

It has also been several months since the T-90M (As was reported here.) has seen combat in the Ukraine frontlines as well. We know they've gotten a handful of new ones, but all are believed to be in Crimea as coming from various sources.

Just checked ORNX with no news on ARMATA and No Change for the T-90M the last (Of 2/1st in Sep 2022. ) captured on 03 Dec. 2022.

I will gladly take the bet that the second is "stateside" or at the very least under our control and the other in the hands of our European allies to include the Ukraine. Those two captures represent an Intelligence coup for the West and will provide valuable insights to the ARMATA as well.

After the ARMATA showing somewhere near the Ukraine (Actually they were near the border in Crimea.) I don't believe we'll see them operational before mid-2024 if then or at all.

To the contractors they rule the military case in point, we had a situation with the navigation system which "was dying" but our techs broke it down and kept that system running a little beyond it's normal "spin down" process.

Today they're not authorized nor are they for the most part trained to do so beyond making Adjustments, PMS, Maintenace and swapping out circuit cards. Anything like what we dealt with has to be done by the contractors responsible for the equipment.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

Just before 2023 release I moved the Armata from 2025 to 2023 because of the rumors about it being sent to Ukraine. Just because you haven't heard about it or seen photos of one doesn't mean it's not there but my bet is there might be one or two well back from the front doing field trials........ as for having them in the OOB operational being a "travesty"..... GIMME A *EXPLETIVE DELETED* BREAK PAT !.
:mad:
Dial the outraged rhetoric back a notch or two....OK? and maybe spending a few minutes checking would be a "good idea".

Everyone has a choice of what to use. You don't think it's available ? DON'T USE IT

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

So, to avoid any confusion, I,m going to break this next down by the "numbers" to make things easy.

Para 1:
"...United States is anticipated to begin delivering Abrams tanks to Ukraine in September."

Para 2:
"As part of the plan, a few Abrams tanks will be sent to Germany in August for final refurbishment before being shipped to Ukraine the following month. "

Para 3:
"The tanks are said to be older M1A1 models, as they can be made available much sooner than the more modern A2 version, which would have taken an additional year to reach Ukraine. "

Para 5:
"The initial shipment will include 6 to 8 tanks. A total of 31 tanks, equivalent to a Ukrainian battalion's strength, are planned to be sent to Ukraine. Pentagon spokesperson Col. Martin O'Donnell declined to provide specific details on the timeline but emphasized the U.S.'s commitment to expedite the process. Before Ukrainian forces can use the tanks, they are required to complete a roughly 10-week training course on 31 trainer tanks at Germany's Grafenwoehr base. According to a separate Defense Department official, the Ukrainian troops are expected to complete their training in August. "

I have discussed the training issue back in May/June, at this time I have nothing to indicate any delays in that process.

Dealing with the tanks, we've CLEARLY seen those tanks going into combat once the Battalions are fully formed. Case in point as was well covered dealt with the M-55S which went through 3 months of training before they were operational.

If we send them 8 tanks a month, we're looking at Feb. 2024 before they become operational. I expect no further delays once all the tanks have arrived to fit out that Battalion, since the training is ongoing and operation unit training will start when the first tanks arrive. I'm starting to think the American training tanks will be used until that Battalion is fully fitted out, thus again making them ready for combat once fully fitted out with their own tanks.

The only mismatched tank Battalion I'm aware of using Western tanks is the one that has the LEOPARD 2A6 and the STRV-122 (Arrived this month.) tanks.

Para 6:
"While there is hope that the tanks could potentially arrive in Ukraine as early as August, uncertainties remain due to the refurbishment process, which involves stripping the older vehicles of sensitive technology, including secret depleted uranium armor. "

Almost my favorite para ^. :p

https://www.armyrecognition.com/ukraine_-_russia_conflict_war_2022/ukraine_expects_to_receive_long-awaited_us_abrams_tanks_in_september.html

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

By the time we release another update a lot of these dates will be firmed up

[DRG]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdE1pvMEHUI

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Well probably won't make many friends with this next but that's OK. What I have is the last USMC Tank Employment/MCWP 3-12 Manual before Plan 2030 and when the CORPS divested all their tanks back to the owner of them the USA. This was officially adopted in March 2014.

You will find no mention of Active Protection System/or APS.
HOWEVER, you will find how to properly disperse your smoke grenades. See F7 & F8 at the end of the document.

Also, we've made the assumption (I believe) that the AMBRAMS can't or doesn't carry troops. In the case of the USMC, it would appear this isn't the case at all, though the word "rare" is used in this context. When to do so is covered. The number carried is 9 Marines.
See 3-6 Figure 3-1 for troop disposition and weapons.

I would further delve into how the USMC has a USA tank formation in the OOB when the use of the games Allie function would seem more appropriate.

It would seem a difficult "reach" as the USA is falling behind in filling out their own units which has further delayed the USA to officially declare the M1A2C/SEP 3 at Full Operation Capability (FOC) unlike they did with the AMPV as reported earlier this Summer.

Funny how when there's a war the resources go to other places, so you don't have to go to war.

There is a lot of REALLY useful information in this document from the player perspective especially for the less experienced players but I saw a couple of things in it I might want to use as well. Of course, TO&E is also covered, ammo etc. etc.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/tanks-rarely-fight-alone-tell-that-to-the-ukrainian-marine-corps/ar-AA1fmvv3?ocid=mailsignout&pc=U591&cvid=326b0024ad6b492d8c6e48159bf699cd&ei=13
https://www.marines.mil/Portals/1/Publications/MCWP%203-12.pdf?ver=2016-05-16-085052-437

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

The AI chooses units from a picklist and it only picks from ONE picklist.

The " Allied" / "Captured" feature is for human use only so is of no use to the AI when it chooses units

So.....the USMC has US Army assets available to USMC starting 7/2021 primarily for the AI to use. The > 7/2021 formations COULD HAVE been " renationalized" so the human player would not see them in the game but the AI would see them but then we would have to explain over and over why there are no tanks to select in USMC > 7/21.

Players preferring to see the US ID tag for armour units >7 /21 are encouraged to use the ALLIES function and then their Marines will have properly ID's US Army tanks but that is not an option for the AI

Doing it the way it was done simplified matters ( K.I.S.S.). In RL the USMC can request US Army armour support if the mission requires armour and that's what we have but they will be tagged USMC UNLESS the human player buys for the USMC and uses the Allied button to buy armour > 7/21

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

To be truthful forgot about AI, however, would think the ABRAMS SEP 2 the much more realistic tank option here.

I rechecked the ARMY.MIL website and still no press releases in a longtime about M1A2C with NONE announcing FOC unlike when they did so for the M1A2 SEP 2 which drove my submission for that tank.

Plenty about ABRAMS for foreign sales/donations though.

Will need to push it (M1A2C) to the right again.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[Mobhack]

The MBT game uses a data driven pick list, unlike the WW2 one which does it all in large lumps of pick code. That was done for flexibility, but in retrospect not an approach i would do again.

The code driven approach in WW2 allows me to use a "PickAliedNation (formationID)" function wot I rote, say for UK planes if it was an ANZAC pick V Italy in the desert. So the air support (and maybe armour too) - might have UK ID tags, UK leader names and values etc. should you have ID tags on and look at them.

But the data driven model (the dat files are put together in spreadsheets then the numbers extracted by column to dat files) - was not really conducive to a "PickAllied()" function. Every formationID column in the spreadsheet would have needed an extra column for foreign OOB ID, at the very least. And then you would have had to select 2 columns to extract and port to the DAT file, and the wrangling of that picklist data and the umpty-five pick files per OOB is already bad enough! - Yep, the "flexibility" that the approach seemed to offer - really wasn't in retrospect. If I did it again, loads of embedded C code wins out!

I think only 2 OOB designers of ours ever really tried editing picklists, and Suhir has been the main such for the USMC - and it was a real task for them to get thier heads around. Yep, once again, dedicated code for the win, not databases!

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Just a "quick" post here as I have an early morning appt.

The following covers losses on both sides in the Ukrainian War, they were compiled from several "open source" sites and agencies in brief ORNX and British Intelligence plus others tracking (As noted at the very bottom of the article.) these issues.

Data was compiled from Feb. 2022 through Sep. 2023.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_october_2023_global_security_army_ind ustry/analysis_war_s_loss_on_russian_and_ukrainian_milit ary_equipment_and_combat_vehicles_since_february_2 022.html

Have a great day!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

As I had pointed out many times in well over the last year plus, the Ukrainian War will be won or lost by original or updated variants of Soviet era tanks and some newer ones since.

The plain truth is the NATO countries don't have the tanks to spare as most, as with our ABRAMS are being modernized for their own defense.

This article does discuss this issue along with a cheaper and easier possible solution which the Ukraine already has some of as pictured in the article as well.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/news/as-ukraine-loses-more-and-more-of-its-best-leopard-2-tanks-it-s-turning-back-to-old-t-72s/ar-AA1j3nHL?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=0367f5203dc942d2935a2ec6112ed49d&ei=6
(From FORBES)

Current Ukrainian armor losses from ORNX. Foreign units are shown by their Country flags as are Russian captured ones by both Soviet and current flag.

A couple that caught my eye are the M-55S which was pretty much the first foreign tank to serve and the longest; listed at the top of the list on the GOOD.

And the Bradley ODAS well, it ain't pretty as it's from us and that means everyone incapacitated is a propaganda victory for the Russians and the numbers show that. They might have ~20 left at this point after the last shipment.
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-ukrainian.html

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

So it would appear that the UKR unit 18 "T-72 Avenger" is the T-72EA .... ?

That IS the upgraded 72M1

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

I believe them to be separate tanks I don't believe the T-72 AVENGER had the engine upgrade and seems the T-72EA might have a slightly better vision system as well. ERA was factory installed by "EA" as well

The T-72 AVENGER (Crowd Funded.) available in 2022 with the T-72EA (Govt.Internationally Funded) earlier this this year.

Both are manufactured by EXCALIBUR ARMOR (EA ^^^^)
[B]https://www.excaliburarmy.cz/
https://www.excaliburarmy.cz/main-battle-tanks-p12
https://www.excaliburarmy.cz/services

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[Suhiir]

[QUOTE=FASTBOAT TOUGH;855139] Well probably won't make many friends with this next but that's OK. What I have is the last USMC Tank Employment/MCWP 3-12 Manual before Plan 2030 and when the CORPS divested all their tanks back to the owner of them the USA. This was officially adopted in March 2014.

You will find no mention of Active Protection System/or APS.
HOWEVER, you will find how to properly disperse your smoke grenades. See F7 & F8 at the end of the document.

Also, we've made the assumption (I believe) that the AMBRAMS can't or doesn't carry troops. In the case of the USMC, it would appear this isn't the case at all, though the word "rare" is used in this context. When to do so is covered. The number carried is 9 Marines.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:[/QUOTE

In the case of the USMC "last deployment" is far less important then "last active unit employing". I saw USMC infantry trained on 3.5in bazookas and M79 GLs (fired one myself) in 1974, M1919 MGs were used on the Ontos till 1969. During Dessert Storm (1991) I carried an M870 12ga and my Co XO had an M79, many of the SNCOs had M1911s (tho they were officially phased out in 1986, and more would have had more been available).

As to the APS, as I said previously the USMC never had enough to equip all of it's tanks, but did have enough to equip all tanks deployed in MEUs and most, if not all, tanks at 29 Palms. We can assume when the USMC divested itself of tanks the APS systems were given to the US Army, but to my knowledge the US Army as never employed the system outside testing so they may well be sitting in a USMC warehouse alongside M1903s, putees, and actual swords (as opposed to the dress ones used for ceremonies). As far as I know it's more-or-less a "bolt on" system so could be fairly easily equipped.

Tank Riders: While OFFICIALLY the Abrams certainly does not carry troops the lack of vehicles in the USMC (as compared to the US Army) means people can, will, and do ride anything when needed. NO it's not doctrine, but it happens, regularly. As to 9 riders, rather then create new units it's easier to just fudge a bit.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Don't bring up U.S. ABRAMS W/APS without expecting a response.

There is no mention of the USMC in the first ref. from 2017.

A BCT was equipped with APS TROPHY under an emergency funding measure and deployed to Europe for an exercise and to be forward deployed in Europe.

I reported on this all along in this thread at the time. The problem for the USMC is that these articles blow the notion that the CORPS had them "out of the water" as there's no mention of them (USMC) and it doesn't fit the timeline (When the USA got them as compared to the game and also as related to when the USMC "Sunset" their tanks.) the at all based on these articles and MANY others.

Introduction: Meet Col. Glenn Dean from ref. 1 2017.
The U.S. Army has decided to equip a brigade’s worth of Abrams M1A2 SEP 2 tanks with the Trophy Active Protection System and urgently field them to the European theater, Col. Glenn Dean, the program manager for Stryker, who also manages the service’s (USA) effort to install APS on combat vehicles, told Defense News.

As reported on 09 Oct. 2017
https://www.defensenews.com/digital-show-dailies/ausa/2017/10/09/europe-bound-army-to-urgently-field-abrams-tanks-with-trophy-active-protection-system/

As reported on 20 Jul. 2020
https://taskandpurpose.com/news/army-m1-abrams-trophy-active-protection-system-europe/
https://militaryleak.com/2020/07/20/us-army-deploys-m1a2-abrams-sep-v2-tanks-fitted-with-trophy-aps-to-germany/

I have never said the USMC wasn't involved in the testing and the following bears that out so...

The next is from the USA as released on 30 Jan. 2020 it is an Executive Summary of the Army's APS/IRON FIST Programs.

I start with the 2ND PAGE/LEFT SIDE under TROPHY APS ...

"In September 2017, the Army completed Phase I testing.
Phase I testing also included 10 Marine Corps Abrams tests
with moving vehicle and inert threats."

Next below ...

"In September 2019, the Army completed Phase II testing,
which included:
- Operational testing at Fort Bliss, Texas, from November
28 through December 14, 2018. An armored platoon
outfitted with Trophy APS-equipped M1A2 SEPv2 tanks
successfully conducted maneuver and gunnery test events.
The test unit completed Trophy APS familiarization training,"

After the Phase I testing the USMC and the M1A1 ABRAMS are no longer mentioned except in the "washout" further below. As you can plainly see this document covers FY 2019 which as a reminder means it covers the period from Oct. 2018 - Sep. 2019.

For the USMC in the "washout" portion...

"The Army and Marine Corps completed 62 live fire tests..."

"Live fire testing included inert unguided threats fired against either a fully functional Abrams SEPv2 or Marine M1A1 tanks (Phase I testing in 2017.) equipped with Trophy..."

Lower Right Corner in preparation for continued Phase III testing ...

"Recommendations
The Army should:
1. Ensure Trophy Phase III testing is designed to examine
areas identified as a concern in Phase II.
2. Continue to develop and advance the appropriate modeling
and simulation tools needed to support the test planning and
evaluation of systems equipped with APS.
3. Include test events designed to assess logistical
considerations for maintenance and counter munition
resupply.
4. Conduct additional testing to further assess installation and
transportability considerations"
https://www.dote.osd.mil/Portals/97/pub/reports/FY2019/army/2019aps.pdf?ver=2020-01-30-115323-267#:~:text=In%20FY17%2C%20in%20support%20of%20the %20European%20Deterrence,Decoupled%20APS%20for%20t he%20Bradley%20family%20of%20vehicles.

Who generated the above?
https://www.dote.osd.mil/

USMC TANKS
The first tanks were already heading to Army depots in the Summer of 2020.

The final tank unit (U.S. Marines' 1st Tank Battalion Camp Pendelton, Ca.) was officially deactivated on 21 May 2021.
https://www.upi.com/Defense-News/2021/05/26/marines-tanks-deactivated/1381622057088/

The 50 remaining M1A1 tanks were located in different locations globally (Somewhere near Europe and Asia.) on forward based Pre-Positioning ships (We called them "Fasts" or "Faster Targets" in my world.) curtesy of the USN.

They were turned over stateside to the Army between Oct. - Dec. 2022

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[Suhiir]

Don't bring up U.S. ABRAMS W/APS without expecting a response.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

https://www.mca-marines.org/wp-content/uploads/0518-Trophy-Active-Protective-System.pdf

Looks like the date of getting the system should have been 2018 not 2017.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aladW_D4nKU
At 2:14 minutes.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

From your article Dated May 2018 (1st ref.) page 34 lower left...
https://www.mca-marines.org/wp-content/uploads/0518-Trophy-Active-Protective-System.pdf

"The Marine Corps is currently testing the Trophy APS on
the M1A1 Main Battle Tank (MBT) in order to fill this capability gap for the tank and explore APS issues in general for all ground combat vehicles."

"In FY18–19, the Marine Corps will continue to improve the
integration design and procure up to nine systems for continued testing, TTP development, experimentation, system optimization, and integration into the GCE."

"The Marine Corps currently plans to procure a total of 56 APS special mission kits, capable of outfitting four Marine Corps tank companies."

So, FY 18-19 means OCT 2017 - Sep 2019.

The writing on the wall from the Marine Corps Commandant [B]Jul. 17th, 2019 and note the date compared to the above.

https://www.marines.mil/Portals/1/Publications/Commandant%27s%20Planning%20Guidance_2019.pdf?ver= 2019-07-17-090732-937

From Page 2.

"FORCE DESIGN
We should take pride in our force and recent operational
successes, but the current force is not organized, trained,
or equipped to support the naval force – operating in
contested maritime spaces, facilitating sea control, or
executing distributed maritime operations. We must
change. We must divest of legacy capabilities that
do not meet our future requirements, regardless of
their past operational efficacy. There is no piece of
equipment or major defense acquisition program that
defines us – not the AAV, ACV, LAV, M1A1, M777, AH-1,
F/A-18, F-35, or any other program. Likewise, we are
not defined by any particular organizing construct – the
Marine Air-Ground Task Force (MAGTF) cannot be our
only solution for all crises. Instead, we are defined by
our collective character as Marines and by fulfilling our
Service roles and functions prescribed by Congress."

"Force design is my number one priority. I have already
initiated, and am personally leading, a future force design
effort. Going forward, CD&I will be the only organization
authorized to publish force development guidance on
my behalf. We will divest of legacy defense programs
and force structure that support legacy capabilities.
If provided the opportunity to secure additional
modernization dollars in exchange for force structure,
I am prepared to do so. Plans or programs developed in
support of this planning guidance that require additional
resources must include an accompanying resource offset
verified by a recognized analytic body (PA&E, OAD,
etc.) to be considered for implementation."

I hope the reader is tracking these dates.

By the Spring of 2020 Marine Corps tanks were starting to head to Army Depots for further modernization to meet the Army's goals for SEP 3 conversion. However, as we now know the Army is cutting production of the SEP 3 and have killed the M1A2C Program this past Summer as I've posted.

Operational Requirements changed.

2020 Summer of discontent.

Picture caption...
"U.S. Marine Corps M1A1 Abrams tanks with 2nd Tank Battalion, 2nd Marine Division are staged in a lot on Camp Lejeune, N.C., July 27, 2020. After serving 2nd MARDIV for more than three-quarters of a century, 2nd Tank Battalion will deactivate as part of the Marine Corps' modernization plan. (Patrick King/U.S. Marine Corps)"
https://www.stripes.com/branches/marine_corps/a-farewell-to-armor-marine-corps-shuts-down-tank-units-hauls-away-m1a1s-1.639355

I recommend the reader strongly take a good look at the turrets and see what's missing.

Picture Caption...
"Marines with 1st Tank Battalion pose for a photograph in front of the last tank assigned to 1st Tank Battalion before its departure at Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center Twentynine Palms, California, July 6, 2020. As part of Force Design 2030, tanks are being divested from the Marine Corps in an effort to accelerate modernization and realign capabilities, units and personnel to higher priority areas. (Courtney White/U.S. Marine Corps)"
https://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/05/23/you-always-demonstrate-true-grit-marines-famous-1st-tank-battalion-folds-mission-ends.html

Something is missing off this West Coast tank as well!!

To Clarify and makes things easy Camp Lejune N.C. WAS "tank East coast" for the USMC, while Camp Pendelton CA. was "tank West coast".

Interview with the same USMC Commandant in September 22-24 Modern Day Marine (MDM) Expo 2020

Picture Caption...
"Marine Corps Logistics Base Barstow, June 7, 2020. RailOps transports divested tanks and other heavy equipment from the USMC to the U.S. Army. Photo by Sgt. Jack Adamyk"
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2020/09/the-u-s-marine-corps-has-divested-in-their-tanks-well-what-does-that-mean/

Something is still missing!?!

Para 3
"According to GDLS’s virtual Modern Day Marine Expo Booth, the first 66.68-ton M1A2 SEPv3s were delivered to U.S. Army’s III Corps based at Fort Hood, Texas, in 2020. The U.S. Marine Corps does not possess any M1A2s and operated the lighter and older M1A1 Abrams versions devoid of the M1A2’s 360-degree rotating Commander’s Independent Therman Viewer (CITV located to the front left of the turret) and the latest Depleted Uranium composite armor package on the front turret. Four M1A1 MBTs often are deployed with each Marine Expeditionary Unit (MEU) and these four tanks provide the heavy armor and firepower of the MEU aboard Amphibious ships."

Directly below ...

"The U.S. Army’s M1A2 SEPv3 is enhanced with these features:

Lethality: A Low-profile .50cal CROWS II Remote Weapons Station for the Tank Commander. New digital crew display panels and electronics. New datalink for programmable ammunition.

Survivability: Increased armor plates welded on the front turret and hull to balance the optional add-on Tank Urban Survivability Kit (TUSK) I and II armor packages and the Trophy Active Protection System (APS). Upgraded underbelly armor against blasts.

Range: Under-armor diesel APU for enhanced range and electrical power with reduced signature when at idle.

Power: Upgraded and greater electrical power distributed through the turret ring.

C4ISR: Multiple Command and Control C4ISR upgrades to improve situational awareness and Joint Forces’ cooperation.
M1A2 SEPv3’s unique external features: Enlarged frontal tow hooks (green in top photo) and rear track mudflaps.

The U.S. Marine Corps Were Upgrading their M1A1s
According to MarineTimes, the Marine Corps were in the process of upgrading their M1A1s with:

A slew-to-cue feature that allows the Tank Commander to move the 120mm main gun to where the Commander’s .50cal heavy machine gun is pointed to.

Improved Gunner’s Primary Sight day and thermal cameras that allows for better resolution and to see further out.

A new color camera and color display that allows for better color differentiation than the previous green and black color camera and display.

A new Gunner’s lower panel that allows the M1A1s to use two new types of ammunition developed by the U.S. Army.

New tactical communications radios."

The above is basically FEP and will note nothing in the "upgrade in progress" (Until divestiture.) is APS mentioned, unlike it was for the SEP 3.

It appears what I posted might not have been looked at in my last, so I'll just repost one of the refs.

Picture Caption...
"U.S. Army Deploys M1A2 Abrams Sep V2 Main Battle Tanks Fitted with Trophy Active Protection System (APS) to Germany"

DATE: Jul 20, 2020

Para 3:

"In 2019 Leonardo DRS, Inc. and Rafael Advanced Defense Systems Ltd. of Israel (Rafael) announced that the partners have delivered on time the first Trophy Active Protection Systems (APS) to defend the U.S. Army’s Abrams main battle tanks against a variety of anti-armor threats."

Para 4:

"On December 2018, U.S. Soldiers assigned to Company D, 1st Squadron, 1st Cavalry Regiment, 2nd Armored Brigade Combat Team, 1st Armored Division, tested the Trophy Active Protection System mounted on M1A2 SEPv2 Abrams main battle tank tanks at Fort Bliss in the United States."
https://militaryleak.com/2020/07/20/us-army-deploys-m1a2-abrams-sep-v2-tanks-fitted-with-trophy-aps-to-germany/

In Post 1699 (My last) you will notice what I just posted above is in the middle of that post and as quoted from...
https://www.dote.osd.mil/Portals/97/pub/reports/FY2019/army/2019aps.pdf?ver=2020-01-30-115323-267#:~:text=In%20FY17%2C%20in%20support%20of%20the %20European%20Deterrence,Decoupled%20APS%20for%20t he%20Bradley%20family%20of%20vehicles
https://www.dote.osd.mil/

I really went to some pains to point out the dates to show between Army testing and the events leading up and including the Marines divesting and "sunsetting" tanks there is NO POSSIBLE way the Marine tanks could have APS.

Even if the only thing I had was just simply getting them transported to the Army's Depots for installation of APS and returning them it would take well over a year to two to get it done.

But you well know that wasn't going to happen. APS is an Army program and Army tanks will take priority for installation.

And if you really want to know why this situation bothers me; I would ask "Who asked whom" to look into the USMC FEP tanks? I put days' worth of effort into them and if I thought there was even a "maybe" about USMC tanks having APS, I would've submitted THEM THAT WAY.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

Ok......... In 25 words or less..... this means what EXACTLY to the USMC OOB?

K.I.S.S.

( REALLY........ 25 words or less )

[Karagin]

Inter-service fighting is always interesting. It's like watching the US Air Force scream over the Army having fixed-wing drones or other aircraft that upset that old Key West agreement of 48. Well, it mainly bothers the brass at the Pentagon.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Testing timeline, divesting of USMC tanks and when USA actually got their first APS systems doesn't make it possible for USMC by the USA to install at depot and get the tanks back to USMC before their tanks went away.

I laid out the dates/timeline very clearly to show this.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

Testing timeline, divesting of USMC tanks and when USA actually got their first APS systems doesn't make it possible for USMC by the USA to install at depot and get the tanks back to USMC before their tanks went away.

I laid out the dates/timeline very clearly to show this.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

FINE Pat....... I take you at your word that you did a wonderful job of laying out " the dates/timeline very clearly to show this." THAT I HAVE NO IDEA WHERE THEY ARE AND I HAVE NO INTENTION OF GOING BACK AND WADING THROUGH ALL THIS AGAIN

So KEEP IT SIMPLE FOR ME because I didn't set up that OOB but I am the one who has to fix it

OK??

You seem to be saying that the USMC Abrams that have "CIWS" in the game SHOULD NOT HAVE IT because USMC would have lost all its armour before the work was done and the vehicles sent back from repair?


This is simple...... Is that correct??

YES or NO ?

One of two words is all I need right now

[Suhiir]

I really went to some pains to point out the dates to show between Army testing and the events leading up and including the Marines divesting and "sunsetting" tanks there is NO POSSIBLE way the Marine tanks could have APS.

Even if the only thing I had was just simply getting them transported to the Army's Depots for installation of APS and returning them it would take well over a year to two to get it done.

But you well know that wasn't going to happen. APS is an Army program and Army tanks will take priority for installation.

And if you really want to know why this situation bothers me; I would ask "Who asked whom" to look into the USMC FEP tanks? I put days' worth of effort into them and if I thought there was even a "maybe" about USMC tanks having APS, I would've submitted THEM THAT WAY.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

You have access to sources (i.e. paid subscriptions etc.) I don't so as always one you dig into something I'll take your word as gospel. I look at what sources I can access, extrapolate based on what I've seen/know (closest I ever got to being a logistic weenie was filling out the forms necessary to order parts/tools needed for/by a maintenance battalion ... which did work on tanks). I was under the impression the APS were ordered, received and tested thus the next step is obviously deployment, and an deployed MEU would have #1 priority. Thus why they're in the OOB, because it represents what's likely to be encountered on the battlefield.

Thanks for your time/efforts!

[Suhiir]

This is simple...... Is that correct??

YES or NO ?

One of two words is all I need right now

As always I'm working on next years update/patch so I wouldn't worry to much about the matter AT THE MOMENT Don.

[DRG]

Yeah and I already said we are done farming out OOB work----that was aimed at you------ so write it down and I will sort through it but there will NOT be anything like what happened last time

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Don,
YES, that is correct. No APS for any USMC MBTs.

Got home from work less than 2 hrs. ago and have to do a dummy drag (160 lbs.) followed by a 2-mile walk (No jogging or running allowed auto disqualification) 30 min. in less than 8hrs. before I go back to work a little later in the day.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

Thank you.

Short and to the point I like a lot

I have now removed it from any USMC Abrams in the USMC OOB that had it

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

No matter the cause or issue and the reason for; someone out here will ALWAYS be my Marine Buddy.

As "Pride Runs Deep" so does "Semper Fidelis".

From the lift (160lb. sandman.) and 20ft+12s/2mi. at 27m flat. I live to work another year. I wonder if it'll be harder @ 65!?! :rolleyes:

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

I wonder if it'll be harder @ 65!?! :rolleyes:

Regards,
Pat
:capt:


Youbetcha......

[DRG]

It would appear from reports and photos , that Ukraine has at least one ABV

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16953&stc=1&d=1699500141

[Suhiir]

It would appear from reports and photos , that Ukraine has at least one ABV
Given what I've seen reported about the Russian defenses they could use a battalion of them.

[DRG]

Apparently, the Russians had a substantial (shed-load) stockpile of mines.
It would be interesting to know how far back in age they go. Some of them could easily be (possibly..... ) ones made before they stopped needing to use them in quantity in WW2

[Suhiir]

It would be interesting to know how far back they go. Some of them could easily be (possibly..... ) ones made before they stopped needing to use them in quantity in WW2
One thing the Soviet/Russian government/military is known for is never disposing of anything (other then people) that has the slightest use. Wouldn't be surprised to see them pull out a MIG-17.

[DRG]

This is not MBT related but it doesn't fit any catigory we used so I used the most popular thread

https://i.imgur.com/LZVni4l.png

Does anyone know what the vehicle at the front on the right is ?

Thinking C&C communications

[Mobhack]

This pic appeared on Tanknet:

https://www.tanknet.org/index.php?/topic/44364-israeli-afvs/page/14/#comments

"Rhino (Oshkosh) and Ofek (Merkava) command vehicles seen side by side. "

[DRG]

The problem is this....... I am guessing the Rhino (Oshkosh) is the one I was asking about but a Google search does not show anything that looks like that at all and this......

https://www.israeldefense.co.il/sites/default/files/_Uploads/dbsArticles/%D7%A0%D7%92%D7%9E%D7%A9%20%D7%90%D7%95%D7%A4%D7%A 72.jpeg

is an ofek and there isn't one in that photo I posted. That MIGHT be one ( maybe ) in the second tanknet photo on the right side but it's not clear that is what it is

https://static.timesofisrael.com/www/uploads/2023/11/DSC02460.jpg

The large vehicle DOES look like it's built on an Oshkosh truck chassis

https://www.defencetalk.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/HEMTT-A4-LTAS-B-truck.jpg

and ELbit makes something very, very similar for the Swedes

https://defence-industry.eu/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Elbit-to-supply-Mobile-Communication-Shelters-to-the-Swedish-Armed-Forces.jpg

https://defence-industry.eu/elbit-to-supply-mobile-communication-shelters-to-the-swedish-armed-forces/

So it seems it's an Elbit and Elbit Systems Sweden AB IS a subsidiary of Israeli company Elbit Systems ( which used to be IMI )

[DRG]

..and all that lead to this

https://elbitsystems.com/pr-new/elbit-systems-awarded-150-million-contract-to-supply-puls-rocket-artillery-systems-to-an-international-customer/

https://elbitsystems.com/media/WP-PULS-artillery-rocket-launcher-system.jpg

Elbit Systems announced today that it was awarded a $150 million contract to supply PULS™ (Precise and Universal Launching Systems) rocket launchers and a package of precision-guided long-range rockets to an international customer. The contract will be performed over a period of three years.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PULS_(multiple_rocket_launcher)


https://elbitsystems.com/pr-new/elbit-systems-awarded-two-contracts-in-an-aggregate-amount-of-252-million-to-supply-atmos-and-puls-artillery-systems-to-a-nato-member-country/



https://www.army-technology.com/projects/puls-rocket-artillery-systems-israel/?cf-view

The PULS multiple-launch rocket system developed by Elbit Systems is capable of precision strike up to the range of 300km.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Since I don't want to say, "I told you so." I won't. :D

Appears the Danish (German owned from FFG.) LEOPARD 1A5 DK have been fielded by Ukraine this month.

This fitted my timeline as much earlier posted. If you kept up fully with this tank it has been mired in the political, financial and overall process for a longtime.

It appears that MAYBE they added either ceramic or applique armor on the front hull.

The shape looks ever so slightly different. But as you can see the weather in the picture doesn't help me in saying it's there beyond 15% - 20% chance at best.

What is clear is there is no ERA on the pictured tank.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/ukraine_-_russia_conflict_war_2022/ukrainian_army_now_equipped_with_danish_leopard_1a 5_main_battle_tanks.html

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

Date adjusted, ERA removed

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

FINALLY, we have a schedule (Year) on when Taiwan will be receiving the first 38 M1A2T tanks during 2024.

The rest as in the ref. below will be delivered in 2025 & I believe it was. 2026.

Trainers (114) for both HIMARS and the tanks will be stateside in the beginning of 2024.

I believe last year I asked for a date change to right which was done.

I estimate FOC earliest to be somewhere between Oct-Dec 2024.

Since Poland is all in on the K2PL (Easier and cheaper to operate and maintain.) and M1A1.

Poland had priority at first due to the war in the Ukraine.

I would expect the first tanks were meant for Poland.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_december_2023_global_security_army_in dustry/taiwan_boosts_defense_with_us_m1a2_tanks_himars_ro cket_launchers_amid_china_tensions.html

CINCLANTHOME will be back later this evening so, hitting the rack as I still have some light house cleaning and a load of laundry.

Least I can do for ALL she does for me. ;)

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Not a complete rehash from my last post on Taiwan's tank issue from ref. dated 01 Dec. 2023.

The next dated from today informs us that plans for the trainers and operational specials is likely to start in Jan. 2024.

" This ambitious plan aims for these personnel to be fully trained by the end of next year, marking a significant enhancement of Taiwan's defensive capabilities.
B]"[/B]

Also; "In February 2024, 30 officers and personnel will also be sent to the United States for HIMARS training, which is expected to be completed by October 2024. Upon their return, these soldiers will be responsible for training and developing operational guidelines for these weapon systems."

It also tells us they will be deployed on the western coast to protect that area from invasion and protect a handful of key cities (Named) and airfields.

So, my initial thought based on what's posted above from the below ref. was to shift the FOC (As late as Apr.-Jun 2025.) HOWEVER, the Taiwanese Army is well trained, disciplined but more importantly-smart.

My thinking is now closer Jan.-Mar. 2025.

In the end though I'm thinking to leave UNIT 025 alone as I see no real problem with Nov. 2024 until we know more.

I feel a clearer picture will be seen in the first three months of 2025.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_december_2023_global_security_army_in dustry/taiwanese_forces_to_train_on_abrams_tanks_and_hima rs_in_us.html

HIMARS FOC will be reached by Jan.-Mar. 2025.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

I REALLY NEED TO STOP READING "MY PAPERS" BEFORE GOING TO BED BUT, THIS IS A SIGNIFICANT DEVELOPMENT AND CERTAINLY REPRESENTS AN IMPORTANT PART IN EURPOES "AWAKING" TO THE WORLD AROUND THEM.

GERMANY IS PERMANTLY DEPLOYING TROOPS OUTSIDE OF IT'S BORDERS FOR THE FIRST TIME SINCE WWII.

IT APPEARS IT'LL BE AN ARMORED BRIGARD WHICH WILL HAVE ITS OWN BASE IN LITHUANIA AND PAID FOR BY THEM AS WELL. THE MOVE STARTS IN 2024 WITH THE UNIT TO BE FULLY STOOD UP BY 2027. THE BASE WILL ALSO HAVE HOUSING ETC. FOR THE FAMILIES OF THOSE SERVING THERE.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/germany-will-deploy-troops-for-first-time-since-world-war-ii/vi-AA1lH57M?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=d3a8bcd69b7f4dc3bd981fea04dec8c7&ei=13

Was in caps from some other work I was doing just before. Wasn't "shouting" just got to typing.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

.......And that base will be, (surprise, surprise,surprise) 100km from the Kaliningrad Oblast..... ( which was Königsberg for 690 years before it was Kaliningrad)....as most of you already know.

"Fun" fact............Nikita Khrushchev offered the entire Kaliningrad Oblast to the Lithuanian SSR in the 1950's but the First Secretary of the Communist Party of Lithuania, Antanas Sniečkus, refused to accept the territory because it would add at least a million ethnic Russians to Lithuania proper.

Kinda like south-eastern Ukraine only in Ukraine the number is 10x higher but in Lithuania a million ethnic Russians would have been 37% of Lithuanian population...... in Ukraine it's about half that % so..........."it's complicated"

When the Soviet Union broke up far too many Western politicians myopically thought this meant the end of strife in Europe........ how do you think that " peace dividend" is working out ?

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Well, I've been saying it for a longtime now; so now that it's actually seen combat, not that I had any doubts about it ever, I'll just turn it over to the Ukrainians and their observations and take note of the distance and by extension its first round hit probability.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/ukraine_-_russia_conflict_war_2022/ukrainian_soldiers_consider_swedish_strv_122_among _best_tanks_for_its_high_accuracy.html

This is one of those "It was worth the time and effort. " Not just once when several years ago when submitted for a major "overhaul" with half a page write up and refs but also more recently when newer data became available to improve on it again in the last or previous patch.

My first day back to work later today after a week in Va. and the above, it'll be a good day! ;)

Hope you all had a Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays! Sunday we'll have our Christmas at home.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

We can "Greenlight" the LEOPARD 1A5 for this month.

The tanks were just put into service with the Ukrainian 59th motorized brigade these were from the first 30 of the tanks delivered.

There still remains 130 tanks yet to be received. The tanks are being refurbished based on the condition of the tank to streamline the transfer of them to the Ukraine.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/ukraine_-_russia_conflict_war_2022/ukraine_s_59th_motorized_brigade_now_equipped_with _former_belgian_leopard_1a5_tanks.html

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

As in real life in war as it should be played in the game; BRADLEY defeats T-90M by this principle.

Video is about 1/2 way down/"TG: WAR ARCHIVE".
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/avdiivka-drone-video-shows-ukraine-s-m2-bradleys-take-out-russian-t-90-tank/ar-AA1mUnOh?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=c57c877532f046ef9e0b969533d1999d&ei=22

It's TGIF, LIFE IS GOOD!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

The pen calculator confirms that in the game it is possible to take out a T-90 with the Chain Gun on the Bradley from the side and the rear....... no certainty but possible

[Suhiir]

The pen calculator confirms that in the game it is possible to take out a T-90 with the Chain Gun on the Bradley from the side and the rear....... no certainty but possible
After the Khafji battle during Desert Shield/Storm I spoke to a LAV-25 gunner who'd run into some T-62s out west of the city (in the middle of nowhere) and he told me that tho the 25mm couldn't penetrate the turret armor it was knocking chips out of it and he felt that given enough time/ammo it could have chiseled a hole through.

NOT RELEVANT to WinSPMBT but I found it interesting.

[DRG]

Yeah well...... if you are watching your hits take chunks out of the armour ya gotta think that eventually, you'll get all the way through

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Well, I realize what I forgot to add on my last post; my brain was telling me what to write but my fingers were ahead of the thought.

The "lesson" I was trying to put across was the importance of mobility while attacking a target bigger than you in a combat situation which the video clearly shows.

Move, Shoot, Reposition and REPEAT.

The video clearly shows the Bradley(s) was firing DU rounds (Yes, I posted they would get them. They received them last fall.) where they hit the ground and the T-90M.
https://orau.org/health-physics-museum/collection/consumer/depleted-uranium/penetrators.html#:~:text=Ok%2C%20these%20are%20not %20really%20consumer%20products%20unless,%22Bushma ster%22%20canon%20on%20the%20Army%27s%20Bradley%20 Fighting%20Vehicle.
https://www.businessinsider.com/ukraine-defeat-tough-russian-tank-armor-with-depleted-uranium-rounds-2023-6

From Ref 1 (Ref 2 discusses this as well.) Para. 2: "Unlike tungsten, uranium is pyrophoric."

And the video also shows smoke coming out from the T-90M main gun and not from firing it as it runs into the trees.

And it doesn't look as though the crew made it out as well since the Ukrainians like to show the Russians "scurrying about" out of armored vehicles etc. when attacked.

Upon review of the video again it looks like two crewmen got out on the right side of the tank. Those "white lights" on the left side of the frontal arc of the turret is definitely the signature of DU rounds and not a Tungsten round.

I was surprised to read from my Marine Buddy that the LAV-25 didn't use the DU rounds in combat in Iraq as "JAKE" showed me pictures from his crew of him loading the dual feed ammo belts.

HOWEVER, AS I FOUND THAT STRANGE, I FOUND THE FOLLOWING...

The LAV-25 used the following against heavier armor as taken from Page 1-3 of the below referenced.

"M919 Armor-Piercing, Fin-Stabilized
Discarding Sabot With Tracer (APFSDS-T)."

It has a DU Penetrator. DATED: 19 December 1997/SIGNED BY: J. E. RHODES
Lieutenant General, U.S. Marine Corps Commanding General
Marine Corps Combat Development Command
https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/usmc/mcwp/3-14-1/mcwp3-14-1.pdf

Based on your earlier post and comment, might this change something now for you? ;)

A T-62 is no T-90 and you saw what the DU rounds did to it. DU rounds would "SHRED" a T-62 in a heartbeat.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

Do you think the lasted 120mm DU will be sent or older stock ? My guess would be the previous ammo with the latest keep in the USA

EDIT. I have now given the M1A1 Abrams UKR the 120mm M256 03 gun/ammo rather than the generic 120mm L44

[DRG]

Well, I realize what I forgot to add on my last post; my brain was telling me what to write but my fingers were ahead of the thought.

The "lesson" I was trying to put across was the importance of mobility while attacking a target bigger than you in a combat situation which the video clearly shows.

Move, Shoot, Reposition and REPEAT.


The Brads give the Ukrainians something they never had before.....the ability to hit a moving target while moving themselves better than they used to be able to do stationary.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Did my last affect or have any bearing on the AP round the USMC has currently for the LAV-25 in the game?

Supposed to be the the same round the BRADLEY uses.

Just curious.

Also, I believe that is a good choice of DU 120mm for the Ukrainian
M1A1.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[Suhiir]

I was surprised to read from my Marine Buddy that the LAV-25 didn't use the DU rounds in combat in Iraq as "JAKE" showed me pictures from his crew of him loading the dual feed ammo belts.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

I didn't ask what type of ammo he used but I know DU available so I assumed it was that. I can't imagine HE doing anything at all to tank level armor, and I'm not sure regular D/S would have knocked chips out of the armor.

Did my last affect or have any bearing on the AP round the USMC has currently for the LAV-25 in the game?

Supposed to be the the same round the BRADLEY uses.

Just curious.

Also, I believe that is a good choice of DU 120mm for the Ukrainian
M1A1.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:
Nope.
I copied the stats from the US Army OOB so if there's to be a change that's up to DRG.

[Suhiir]

Take this for what it's worth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hg64H8jwheQ
(( Not specifically "tank" but lots of info on the T-90. ))
(( Of particular note the T-90 CANNOT use the new APFSDS round designed for the T-14 as it will not fit in the autoloader. ))

I know Don "loves" to tweak units :re:

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Yeah, I got you.

Got my curiosity up as General Dynamics makes the same ammo for the BRADLEY.

Just wanted to enquire if your (CORPS) LAV-25 was using the same ammo as the BRADLEY is all.

As to the T-14 is about DOA (They can't afford nor because of the embargo get the computer chips for its advanced electronics besides being unreliable.

However, that being said there is a PROTOTYPE T-90M(E?) (Not the "Proryv 3"" I've "seen" that apparently have the T-14 gun or modify the existing gun to fire those rounds which would require a modification of the FCS at a minimum.

I'm watching this however, I have "LOW CONFIDENCE" in the source. You can draw tour conclusions of this last. They say below the gun and ammo are on the T-90M Proryv 3 (Or the T-90M 2017 as it's also confusedly called.).
https://www.rbth.com/science-and-tech/330065-4-facts-about-russias-%D1%8290

Just because I haven't been posting for a while doesn't mean I'm not paying attention.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[Suhiir]

Yeah, I got you.
Just wanted to enquire if your (CORPS) LAV-25 was using the same ammo as the BRADLEY is all.

Pat
:capt:
As far as I know if the USMC uses the same weapons, or weapons caliber as the US Army they use the same ammo. Tho there may be some "high tech" (i.e. the 155mm Excalibur) ammo types the USMC has a limited stock of, or only requisitions for a specific need/requirement.

Same with missiles, bombs, and all the rest.

There aren't very many "unique" weapon systems in the US Military. And those mostly belong to the SF types.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Needed to clarify a couple of points below. FBT 1/22/24

Why we haven't seen the Ukrainian M1A1 we haven't seen them in combat and might not see them in combat until the Spring.

NOTE: The only ERA mounted on pictures of these tanks is ONLY on the Hull sides. I haven't found any sources to indicate they will add any more in the future, though this might change once in combat.

It was also interesting that the only tanks that will not receive ERA are both the LEOPARD 2A6 and the STRV-122 because of their all-around armor packages and combat experiences.

The first reason is that all of them are being fitted out with M-19 Reactive Armor Tile (ARAT).
https://www.armyrecognition.com/ukraine_-_russia_conflict_war_2022/ukraine_s_us-donated_m1a1_abrams_tanks_enhanced_with_advanced_a rmor_on_the_battlefield.html
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/ukrainian-m1-abrams-tank-seen-with-explosive-reactive-armor

The second reason is the current weather they are having a hard time with Ukraine's Winter mud due to their weight; they are the heaviest tank on the battlefield.

The biggest reason that's "popped" on the web also, appears to be both a political and military decision to hold them back until the Spring offensive.

Though the "overview" at bottom might bring up an alternate picture for 2024. And personally, I can see this as it favors the Ukraine more than Russia.
https://www.businessinsider.com/abrams-likely-deployed-next-spring-due-winter-russian-defense-analysts-2023-11
https://www.forbes.com/sites/lorenthompson/2024/01/04/tanks-are-crucial-to-ukraines-future-battlefield-success-the-us-needs-to-provide-them/?sh=6e9fc7816198

Overview:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-67760067

Also "cope cages" are coming back as they have been found effective on both sides versus drones by causing them to "hang up" on them or explode prematurely. Also, omni-directional radio jamming equipment is also appearing in the battlefield on both sides as well.

When you mount a low power multi band jamming equipment that can cover the frequency band in milliseconds your drones will drop like flies. They are only radio controlled. Only the larger UAV's have the capability on board (EW) to counter your system and those comms are from highly encrypted satellites for both the operator and UAV.

But then you wouldn't waste a UAV/or large Drone on a tank anyway given the cost of them.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

For those who read my last post concerning the Ukrainian M1A1; I offered an "overview" option concerning a possible alternative to a Spring Offensive and my opinion on the matter as it relates to the BBC ref. last in the post.

So today we have this calling for a more "hold and defend" posture to resupply, rebuild and train.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/us-hints-at-a-drastic-u-turn-in-ukraine-strategy-as-russia-takes-more-ground-in-country/ar-BB1hkJ9K?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=63ca504c92af4587b1e73196e2c9ac79&ei=58

Though not yet the final word; it isn't the final "word", but it is started to be "shouted" out at the moment.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

Some perspective


As of today, it's been 702 days since the Russian invasion of Ukraine started.

The number of days from the start of Barbarossa --Jun 22, 1941 to the start of the Kursk battle--July 5, 1943 is 743 days

The number of days from the Start of the Kursk battle to the German Surender May 8 1945 was 673 days

The average of the days between those two dates is 708 days

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

doe-ray-me is a test.

:capt:

SAT: Something wrong with one of my refs (?), for a story I tried posting earlier this evening. Shrapnel System is stopping it.

Will attempt to get it out soon, I hope.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

The news was that the T-64 has seen some upgrades. Currently being the following tanks: T-64BM Bulat, T-64BW 2017, T-64BM2 Bulat, and the T-64BW 2022 version, made possible through collaborations with Poland and the Czech Republic.

What I've gotten from the four refs I have is the above now have the KNIFE ERA which is used on the T-84BM OPLOT, the FCS from the T-84 OPLOT
"Furthermore, since 2017, the tanks have been fitted with an upgraded fire control system complete with a thermal imaging camera. This addition provides them an edge in identifying and eliminating targets over all T-72 tank models below the B3 version. These models have lost duels against the T-64BWs. It's also important to note that the T-64 tanks have the most experienced crews, a factor that often results in more victories compared to the newly conscripted Russians operating the T-90M tanks."

Another source:
"The rebuilt T-64BM Bulat introduced new armor and a so-called “active defense” system than shoots projectiles in order to intercept incoming rockets. The current T-64 2017 adds modern thermal imagers, secure digital communications and satellite navigation." (Supposedly all back fitted to the above models from the T-64BM BULAT on.)

USAGE: This dealing more with both older and newer versions as noted above. From a different ref.
"These tanks are employed to neutralize Russian infantry assaults and finish off vehicles damaged by, for example, artillery. In the following video, you can witness a T-64 tank destroying a Russian IFV from the BMP family using a HEAT missile."

UNITS AFFECTED: The following is what I see and with my first impressions for UNITS 30-32.

First: "flip" FC for UNITS 30 & 32.

Second: Update ERA on UNIT 032 as shown for UNIT 030. See more on UNIT 030 below.

Third: Update ERA on UNIT 30 to reflect the KNIFE ERA from UNIT 064 T-84 OPLOT-M.

Fourth: Update RADIO on UNIT 032 to 85 or 90.

ALL listed above (T-64) got new engines (+200hp I believe.) to support Power usage for the newer systems and increased SPEED for the battlefield.

Crew 3 was what the refs. showed for the tanks having auto loaders so this should already be "built in".

So it would appear SRAPNEL's System detected something from one of the refs and or videos.

I will attempt to upload the videos in the next couple of days, I guess we'll find out which is which then.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

Pat

The Ukrainian T-64's like the T-64BM Bulat and T-64 Bulat M17 already do have "an edge in identifying and eliminating targets over all T-72 tank models below the B3 version" in fact the M17 is superior to anything but the T-72B3M

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Due to the ref situation on site I "Cut and Pasted" the quotes from the refs in pointing that out for context, the rest of it read that the "BWs" were still managing to take out the Russian "B3s" (And better to include the T-90M.) because the Ukrainian tank crews were more experienced in combat and handling their tanks than the Russian crews especially now as their attrition rates have been higher and apparently from numerous sources that are indicating that the Russian crews are only receiving minimal training before throwing them into combat in all aspects to include their tanks.

Russia can afford to do this as there is no shortage of manpower or tanks when they have thousands of them, that they can get into the battle.

If Russia can get their act together and consolidate their armored forces the Ukraine could find itself the modern equivalent victim of "Quantity versus Quality" in this war.

It's a good thing Putin is an inpatient man and currently distracted by openly threatening NATO due to Finland's and the very soon to be admitted Sweden into NATO.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

I'm not going to deep into this next as the article(s) are pretty "cut and dry". It's sourced from British Intel on their assessment on Russian armor. The second from the Pentagon.

You'll note there is no mention of the T-14. The T-14 has been unreliable (Even from Russian military sources.) and costs way too much.

Most of the production tanks are as you might expect, are the T-90M Proryv and T-72B3M tanks.

You have to keep in mind also, that the majority of their tank production capability is going towards various improvements of older tanks which they can get into the field quicker and cheaper than the new production ones as listed above.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_january_2024_global_security_army_ind ustry/russian_tank_losses_spike_in_ukraine_but_productio n_reaches_100_monthly_according_to_british_intel.h tml

I'll start with the following first:

"The Pentagon is currently unable to provide the necessary spare parts or even assist Ukrainian personnel assigned to maintenance."

Secondly: You need to think about why we really haven't heard too much about the M1A1 and the LEOPARDS lately.

I am going to say, "I told you so." well into last year and before. The the key words were Training, Logistics and Maintenace.

The last 3 paras are all you need to read from the following and it covers all 3 of the above words. The German aspect at the end was really unexpected.

It's not at all good Ladies and Gentlemen.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/ukraine_-_russia_conflict_war_2022/us_temporarily_unable_to_ensure_maintenance_of_wea pon_systems_delivered_to_ukrainian_army.html

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

[DRG]

Just thought I would toss this in for FYI

https://armyrecognition.com/germany_german_army_heavy_armoured_vehicle_tank_uk/leopard_2a8_mbt_main_battle_tank_technical_data.ht ml

It has an interesting video embedded


https://armorama.com/upload/media/entries/2023-12/04/5748-entry-3-1701677250.jpg

[MarkSheppard]

https://dsm.forecastinternational.com/2024/02/08/the-netherlands-hope-of-resurrecting-a-lost-defense-capability-faces-hurdles/

More than 12 years after disbanding its last two tank battalions and mothballing and selling off the entire Royal Netherlands Army fleet of upgraded Leopard 2A6 tanks, Dutch defense officials are now toying with the idea of recreating a tank battalion.

Joint German-Dutch cooperation provides a starting point for the Netherlands’ goal of reviving a tank battalion.

Since 2015, the Dutch have leased 18 Leopard 2A6 tanks from Germany to help form one of five companies within the larger German-Dutch 414 Tank Battalion.

Now, however, Dutch officials want more tanks – ones acquired outright – to recreate a unique Royal Netherlands Army tank battalion.

While overall funding has decidedly increased – the 2024 defense budget will rise by nearly 43 percent nominally year-on-year to reach €21.4 billion ($23 billion), or 1.95 percent of GDP – ongoing military procurement priorities – ranging from armed drones to rocket artillery systems to additional F-35s – take precedence.

Therefore, tank acquisition plans – such as one proffered by Germany last summer for a joint purchasing initiative involving the Leopard 2A8 main battle tank – remain unfunded and reliant upon the next Dutch government.