The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes. [Archive]

dogscoff

November 16th, 2001, 04:52 PM

OK, so I know this little project died way back in the spring somewhen, and the pages devoted to it on my webspace have been festering un-updated for months, but now that the viking production machine is slowing down again, I thought I'd make another effort to create some continuity between mods.

For those who missed it / ignored it the first time round...
I'm trying to create some sort of vague "standard" set of filenames for non-standard hullsizes, so that a shipset creator can make his shipset compatible with a number of different present and future mods more easily.

For example, in S_J's Pirates and Nomads mod, the battlemoon image has to be called
"massivebaseship". In the Star Wars mod though, the Battlemoon (Well, Death Star actually, but it's still a big, grey, round thing) goes by the name of "LDS". Which name should I use for my vikings shipset? I can only be compatible with just one, but I want my battlemoon image to be used by both mods.

If theese two modders agreed upon a standard file name for these big grey round things, then shipset creators might start making shipsets that include them. Then, future modders could call for big grey round thing images in their mods in the knowledge that there are already dozens of shipsets out there with images to support them.

The idea goes beyond just that one example though, obviously: Extra fighter sizes seem to be used by many different mods. Also infantry, mining / resource generating hulls and many others which may exist or come to exist in the future.

The problem comes with those shipsets which have no extra images at all and never will. This problem is solved by adding files to the generic shipset. I am willing to spend time creating new generic images if necessary.

Now that my viking shipset is almost complete and freely available, I'd like to start trying to standardise some of the non-standard images.

So, the major mods I am most familiar with, (other than TDM which uses no non-standard images anyway) are Pirates and Nomads, and the Star Wars mod. Also, you were the guys that showed an interest Last time=-) So...

S_J, your P&N mod currently calls for a pic called "massivebaseship", which is used for the battlemoon. You include a generic image for it, and another identical image titled "battlemoon". You also have extra hull sizes, but no special images for drop
pods, bio-fanatics, resource ships/ stations and 2 extra fighter sizes.

Andres, your mod calls for:
3 death star images called "sds", "mds" and "lds", & one picture called "infantry"
I'm assuming you have generic images for these.

There are also fighter sizes including a TIE bomber, which just use standard fighter images.

Here is my suggestion for a working system- and it is just a suggestion. If necessary I can create generic images to fill in any gaps. (Even if I just copy another generic image and rename it)

EDIT: Table wasn't clear, so I attached it as a text file.

If you guys were to establish this as a starting point, i think other modders and shipset creators would follow suit and we could start the ball rolling.

Would this system work? Do you think those images are compatible? Are there any changes you want made? I know it sucks using a generic fighterbomber image rather than a race-specific largefighter image, but if this idea catches on then I believe that most new shipsets will be created with race-specific images for all or most of these extra sizes, and that authors will start to update their back- catalogues. I've tried to show the way with the vikings and I seem to be getting a good response. I can even start making additional images for existing shipsets if necessary.

[ March 12, 2003, 16:24: Message edited by: dogscoff ]

Val

November 16th, 2001, 05:23 PM

I like the idea of a system that is used throughout, would definitely make shipsets more cross-mod compatible with less work.

I would make a few suggestions to make the naming more consistant to SEIV :

Call Infantry "TroopShock" or "TroopVeteran"

Call Huge Fighter "FighterHuge" or "FighterMassive"

and add :

"ExplorerShip" - made for long range exploration
"ScoutShip" - made for speed and intel
"ColonyShipLarge" - Available before Large Transport but geared for larger colonies

I know the Last three ship types can be created from other hulls, but I think these hulls could be given different restrictions and bonuses to make them useful.

Now if you can just get everyone on the same page...

Val

[This message has been edited by Val (edited 16 November 2001).]

dogscoff

November 16th, 2001, 05:39 PM

QUOTE:
I like the idea of a system that is used throughout, would definitely make shipsets more cross-mod compatible with less work.
/QUOTE

Thanks for saying it so concisely. Why can't I ever express this project in less than 200 words?

QUOTE:
I would make a few suggestions to make the naming more consistant to SEIV :
/QUOTE

Point taken, but the SEIV naming system is hardly consistent anyway. IE lightcruiser but transportlarge.

QUOTE:
Call Infantry "TroopShock" or "TroopVeteran"
/QUOTE

Hmm. How about "TroopInfantry"?

QUOTE:
Call Huge Fighter "FighterHuge" or "FigterMassive"
/QUOTE

I'll see what is already in use. Fighterbomber is quite a popular usage. Remember we're only naming the images, not the hull sizs. The troubl with "huge" and "massive" is that there could be some confusion as to which is the bigger.

QUOTE:
and add :
"ExplorerShip" - made for long range exploration
"ScoutShip" - made for speed and intel
"ColonyShipLarge" - Available before Large Transport but geared for larger colonies

I know the Last three ship types can be created from other hulls, but I think these hulls could be given different restrictions and bonuses to make them useful.
/QUOTE

Like I say, we're naming images, not hull sizes. In other words I don't want to tell the modders what to use these images for, I just want to make the images available for them. I'm not aware of any current mods which use those sizes (although devnull used to have an ark ship) so there's no point trying to standardising them.

QUOTE:
Now if you can just get everyone on the same page...
/QUOTE

Yeah I know...

------------------
SE4 Code:
L GdY $ Fr- C- Sd T!+ Sf-- Tcp-- A% M>M+ MpD! RV Pw Fq+ Nd- Rp+ G-
/SE4 Code
Go to my meagre SEIV pages (http://www.sandman43.fsnet.co.uk/se4main.htm) to generate your own code.

Suicide Junkie

November 16th, 2001, 06:56 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>QUOTE:
I would make a few suggestions to make the naming more consistant to SEIV :
/QUOTE

Point taken, but the SEIV naming system is hardly consistent anyway. IE lightcruiser but transportlarge.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>SE4 is not exactly consistent, its true. However, unless you plan to change the unmodded imagenames, we're stuck with them.
As for what you add, I like the idea of making the names follow an SE4 style.

PS: You need square [] brackets around "quote" and "/quote".

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>QUOTE:
Call Huge Fighter "FighterHuge" or "FigterMassive"
/QUOTE

I'll see what is already in use. Fighterbomber is quite a popular usage. Remember we're only naming the images, not the hull sizs. The troubl with "huge" and "massive" is that there could be some confusion as to which is the bigger. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>In my case, the Nomads still have only 3 useful fighter sizes, so I used small/medium/large images for them. The internal game names are not important.

As a first approximation, using either mount sizes, or planet sizes would work quite nicely to expand the range of sizes.
{Tiny, Small, Medium, Large, Huge}
{(Light/Small), (Medium), Large, Heavy, Massive}

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>PlanetoidLarge -> Battlemoon or Large Death Star<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Are you defining the standard name here?
IE. "Planetoid" is a vehicle large enough to form itself into a sphere shape?
Just wondering if that bit is finalized, or up for discussion.

--------------------

Now, I could write a utility to go through a shipset, copying & renaming images to fill the gaps between it and your standard.

For example, the program would check to see if there is a "_planetoidlarge", and if not, look down a list of replacements. The choices would be "_massivebaseship", "_planetoidmedium", "_planetoidsmall", "_baseship", and so on.
If all that fails, then the shipset would be left to use the mod's default image. (Note that "_baseship" doesn't exist, but would likely be a good image to copy.

At the end of the process, the shipset would have most or all of your standard image files; the actual pictures would be duplicated, but the ships would retain the colour scheme of the race rather than use mod defaults.

Note: If I write this, you could define your standard shipset to use "_cruiserLight", and not "_lightCruiser".
My program would simply use "_lightCruiser" as the first choice to copy to "_cruiserLight".

Val

November 16th, 2001, 07:41 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
Point taken, but the SEIV naming system is hardly consistent anyway. IE lightcruiser but transportlarge.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As to the point of consistancy, I had noticed that the transports where categorized as Large instead of Heavy as well, but put that down to it generally being meant as a "non-combatant". I have no clue why the LightCruiser is named that way, probably something they accidently did and never "fixed".

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
As a first approximation, using either mount sizes, or planet sizes would work quite nicely to expand the range of sizes.
{Tiny, Small, Medium, Large, Huge}
{(Light/Small), (Medium), Large, Heavy, Massive}
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I like the idea of using the mount sizes. Then you have:
FighterLight, FighterHeavy and FighterMassive to add.

Any of those fighter sizes can be made into a fighter bomber. If people planned for the FighterBomber had some unique hull stats or abilities, then it should be added.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
PlanetoidLarge -> Battlemoon or Large Death Star
Are you defining the standard name here?
IE. "Planetoid" is a vehicle large enough to form itself into a sphere shape?
Just wondering if that bit is finalized, or up for discussion.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, if we keep to the Planetoid (or whatever word we use instead) idea and use the Light, Small, Medium, Large, Heavy, Massive designations you can have a range of "Battlemoons" or "Death Stars" to chose from (or for that matter Orkie Rocks or Space Hulks), since the picture is all that is referenced. This might even lead to a craftworld type object.

We can do the same with troops, adding Light, Heavy and Massive.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
Like I say, we're naming images, not hull sizes. In other words I don't want to tell the modders what to use these images for, I just want to make the images available for them. I'm not aware of any current mods which use those sizes (although devnull used to have an ark ship) so there's no point trying to standardising them.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The extra hulls would be geared towards new ship types that would be common throughout mods, though the exact abilities may differ, as seen fit by the modders (or not used at all). The names are just a generic desription for what they are "best" used for. As you say, the pics are there for the use, if they want them and could be used for something else.

So, we could potentially add:

"ExplorerShip" - made for long range exploration
"ScoutShip" - made for speed and intel
"ColonyShipLarge" - Available before Large Transport but geared for larger colonies
"TransportTroop" - Gives some sort of bonus on planetary assault - can be broken down into sizes
"ProspectorShip" or "ResourceShip - for resource generation
"MiningStation" - for resource mining/generation

and the already discussed:

TroopLight
TroopHeavy
TroopMassive
TroopInfantry
Planetoid(or whatever word)Light
PlanetoidSmall
PlanetoidMedium
PlanetoidLarge
PlanetoidHeavy
PlanetoidMassive
FighterLight
FighterHeavy
FighterMassive
FighterBomber

[This message has been edited by Val (edited 16 November 2001).]

dogscoff

November 16th, 2001, 09:16 PM

Quotes in no particular order.

[QUOTE}
...plan to change the unmodded imagenames...
[/quote]

No way! That would be ridiculous. I was just pointing out that if Malfador isn't going to be fastidious about ship names, why should we? I agree that we should use the shipadjective format (ie transportlarge) rather than adjectiveship (lightcruiser) because it Groups files together nicely when sorted alphabetically. Other than that, I'd rather be a little creative with the names rather than tie ourselves to conventions which may not suit in the future.

But no, I don't want to redefine all the standard images. I just want to make most efficient use of the non-standard ones=-) Trying to reclassify FighterSmall as FighterLight etc would be a bureaucratic idiocy. I see your argument for fightermassive rather than fighterbomber but... I just like it better. I'm not really bothered though, as long as we can get everyone using the same names.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
...planetoid?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wouldn't go around defining conventions without consultation... it was just a suggestion. Besides, I can't finalise anything, you're the modders- who the hell am I?=p. It just seemed to me that planetoid is one of the few words that can describe both a Death Star and a Battlemoon. After all, they're very different things- all they have in common is that they're big, grey and round. Fortunately, when you're talking about images, what something looks like is the only thing that really counts.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
...utility...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This sounds clever, but it's the kind of thing I'd rather see in the game itself. Also, when would you run it? Would it leave all your files with the wrong names if you then wanted to run a different mod?

All this talk would be redundant if the vehiclesize.txt allowed you to specify a secondary image (between the first choice and the generic) if the first choice wasn't found.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
...planetoid...Orkie Rocks...Craftworld...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yeah, I think a range of giant death stars would be good. 3 is enough though... anyone modding more than that probably needs to spend more time away from their computer.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
...troops...light...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think "infantry" or "troopinfantry" should definitely be used rather than "trooplight". There's a significant visual difference between an infantry unit (guys on foot with guns) and an SE4 troop. (tank, mecha, giant robot etc)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
...explorer...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Those are all good ideas (I never thought of a specialised troop transport hull=-) but I think it might be an idea to let this thing develop at it's own pace - only define conventions where they are needed. If no mod (or only the one mod) has an "explorer" class, then I don't see much point in standardising it. These standards are only meaningful when you have more than one mod using similar hull types but under different names.

Hey... any other modders want to jump in on this? The more the merrier

------------------
SE4 Code:
L GdY $ Fr- C- Sd T!+ Sf-- Tcp-- A% M>M+ MpD! RV Pw Fq+ Nd- Rp+ G-
/SE4 Code
Go to my meagre SEIV pages (http://www.sandman43.fsnet.co.uk/se4main.htm) to generate your own code.

Val

November 16th, 2001, 09:29 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
I agree that we should use the shipadjective format (ie transportlarge) rather than adjectiveship (lightcruiser) because it Groups files together nicely when sorted alphabetically.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Totally in agreement here. Makes it much easier to sort through.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
If no mod (or only the one mod) has an "explorer" class, then I don't see much point in standardising it. These standards are only meaningful when you have more than one mod using similar hull types but under different names.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed again. But, we can see which ones people might be interested in expanding into as well. Plan ahead and save time down the line http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif

I also editted my previous post to correct a few mistakes (such as leaving out TroopInfantry).

Val

Suicide Junkie

November 16th, 2001, 10:23 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>This sounds clever, but it's the kind of thing I'd rather see in the game itself. Also, when would you run it? Would it leave all your files with the wrong names if you then wanted to run a different mod? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Some Clarification:
- The utility would be run once, when you install a shipset.
- The utility will not change or delete any existing images.
- The utility will add all the images described by your standard, by copying the closest existing image.

So, the shipset will look exactly the same in unmodded SE4, and in mods that only use images created by the shipset designer.
Under mods that use your standard image names, the shipset will have one of the original images, rather than using the generic race default.

Running the utility on one of the shipsets included with SE4 (Eee), it would add to the shipset the following:
New picture name ===> copy of Old picture
Eee_mini_troopinfantry ==> Eee_pop_portrait
Eee_portrait_troopinfantry ==> Eee_race_portrait
Eee_mini_fighterLight ==> Eee_mini_fightersmall
Eee_portrait_fighterLight ==> Eee_portrait_fightersmall
Eee_mini_PlanetoidLarge ==> Eee_mini_starbase

etc...
The pop -> infantry is nice, the small -> light is OK, and the starbase -> planetoid is pushing things.
If no reasonable choice is available, the image can be left nonexistant, and the race can use the mod's default.
The goal here is to keep each races picture's unique, so you don't have to play a game where everybody is using the same default image for their ships & units.

P&N Eg. "Who's battlemoon is that? They all look the same!"

Essentially, you could see it as the practical implementation of:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>All this talk would be redundant if the vehiclesize.txt allowed you to specify a secondary image (between the first choice and the generic) if the first choice wasn't found.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>since, if the primary image (specified by your standard) is not there, the secondary choices will be tried in order.
MY utility: "No baseship image? Then is there a starbase image? Copy the starbase image to 'baseship'"
SE4: Looks for "baseship", and always finds it.
Either it is the designer's original intention, or it is the backup "starbase" image, if the designer didn't make an explicit baseship image.

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 16 November 2001).]

dogscoff

November 16th, 2001, 10:47 PM

Clever...

So it would be a bit like your AI patcher. In fact you might consider integrating the two.

Would it be for P&N only or would it get instructions from a text file so that other modders could make it work for them?

------------------
SE4 Code:
L GdY $ Fr- C- Sd T!+ Sf-- Tcp-- A% M>M+ MpD! RV Pw Fq+ Nd- Rp+ G-
/SE4 Code
Go to my meagre SEIV pages (http://www.sandman43.fsnet.co.uk/se4main.htm) to generate your own code.

Andr�s

November 17th, 2001, 12:07 AM

I haven't updated that mod since before Last time this topic was discussed. I think I was about to change the name of old deathstar pics.
I'll change that when I get to work again in that mod and also make it compatible with seiv ver 1.49, and complete things I never got to add.

I think that to make modders use the new "standard pic names", it will be more important to create compatible shipsets than to create one or two compatible mods.
If a few sample shipsets are available, I think that other shipset artists will start copying that, making pictures for all those extra sizes. And modders will find that pictures are already there and use them in their mods.
It looks like your Viking shipset is going to be the first example.
I will make all images for the shipsets I have in progress and then my priority should be to "upgrade" all of my shipsets to the "new standard", and not edit that obsolete mod.
If we can convince other people such as Atrocities and John Beech to upgrade their shipsets and promote this standard in their websites, then most of the shipset makers will follow.
suicide_junkie's proposed program sounds cool.

Andr�s

Andr�s

November 17th, 2001, 12:52 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
No way! That would be ridiculous. I was just pointing out that if Malfador isn't going to be fastidious about ship names, why should we? I agree that we should use the shipadjective format (ie transportlarge) rather than adjectiveship (lightcruiser) because it Groups files together nicely when sorted alphabetically. Other than that, I'd rather be a little creative with the names rather than tie ourselves to conventions which may not suit in the future.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree, do not change pic names such as lightcruiser to keep compatibility with non modded game without the need of redundant copies.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
Yeah, I think a range of giant death stars would be good. 3 is enough though... anyone modding more than that probably needs to spend more time away from their computer.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Remember my ultimate vehicle size mod?
I was planning to revamp it once we agree with this standard.

Ok these are the names and sizes I propose:
Ship Name � Pic Name � Description

Normal ships:
Scout � Scout � smaller than Escort
Baseship � Baseship � let�s standardize this pic name for baseship size, some shipsets (Atrocities�) use bs as pic name
Small PlanetCraft? Small Planetoid? Small Worldship? Small WorldCraft? � Larger than Baseship
Medium PlanetCraft? Medium Planetoid? Medium Worldship? Medium WorldCraft? � Larger than previous one
Large PlanetCraft? Large Planetoid? Large Worldship? Large WorldCraft? � Larger than previous one

Ships such as Corvette, Heavy Destroyer, etc are not necessary. I agree the names sound cool, but there�s not an important gap between ship sizes. Maybe there is a gap between the Dreadnought and the baseship. What about a Monitor, or Super Dreadnought?

Troops:
Infantry � Infantry � IMHO InfantryTroop is unnecessary redundant, there are not things such as InfantryFighters. Looks like SJ now agrees that smallest troops should be infantry and not drop pods?

Fighters:
The standard are Small, Medium, and Large changing them or adding others such as Light and Heavy will only generate confusion.
Sizes I propose are:
Tiny Fighter � FighterTiny � Smaller than small fighter
Massive Fighter � FighterMassive or FighterBomber � Larger and maybe slower than Large Fighter

Specialized Ships:
Large Colony ship � bigger than standard one

And not sure about this one.
Special Ship � ShipSpecial � A ship with special abilities, such as resource ship, resource miner, stellar manipulation barge, etc. Maybe a small, medium and large ones.

Suicide Junkie

November 17th, 2001, 01:44 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Looks like SJ now agrees that smallest troops should be infantry and not drop pods?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I still use a troop size called "drop pod", and I don't plan on changing it. (The vehicle is a "drop pod", and the components of the drop pod include infantry. The larger troops are tanks & stuff, so they can probably survive a surface landing without being inside something else)
I figure that theres no point in having a picture of the pods; we want to see the units in action, so I will use a picture of the race when this standard is nailed down.
I agree that we need an Infantry unit image, and it only makes sense to call it troopInfantry.

By default, the racial pictures
"raceX_pop_portrait" would be perfect for the "raceX_mini_troopInfantry", and
"raceX_race_portrait" would be great for the "raceX_portrait_troopInfantry" images.

dogscoff

November 18th, 2001, 12:12 AM

OK, It think we're making real progress=-)

IMHO, the important ships to discuss are the ones already in use:

Infantry (Storm troopers, bio fanatics. Maybe or maybe not drop pods.).
I think the standard name for this image should be "TroopInfantry"

Big Round Grey Things (death star/ battlemoon).
I think the standard name for these images should be "PlanetoidSmall/ Medium/ Large)

Mining Ships & Stations (S_J's nomad resource hulls)
I think the standard names for these images should be "Prospector" and "MiningStation")

Fighters. S_J says he doesn't need extra fighter images after all, so I think just "FighterBomber" for Andres' TIE bomber.

Does this cover all your extra hull sizes? Would you guys be happy to make the above changes to your vehiclesize.txt files? Should we vote on "planetoid" vs "worldship" or "prospector" vs something else?

Like I say, these are the important ones since they are the ones actually relevent to your mods. I think we should agree on these before we discuss tiny fighters, stellar manip barges, corvettes, troop transports and whatever else. They can be added afterwards - the standard can grow and evolve to accomodate them as necessary.

Oh, and thanks for your support with all this, guys=-)

BTW, I still haven't had any response from other modders=-( but it is the weekend. Good news about Devnullmod though=-)

------------------
SE4 Code:
L GdY $ Fr- C- Sd T!+ Sf-- Tcp-- A% M>M+ MpD! RV Pw Fq+ Nd- Rp+ G-
/SE4 Code
Go to my meagre SEIV pages (http://www.sandman43.fsnet.co.uk/se4main.htm) to generate your own code.

Suicide Junkie

November 18th, 2001, 12:32 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Mining Ships & Stations (S_J's nomad resource hulls)
I think the standard names for these images should be "Prospector" and "MiningStation")<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I don't have resource hulls anymore; I replaced that with 1% maintenance, plus the minimum production, plus trade/thefts.

As for the prospector/miningstation, I'm thinking we want to get across the idea of "big ship with scoops/loading bays"

- Some sort of Scavenger, Collector type idea.

Andr�s

November 18th, 2001, 01:02 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Infantry (Storm troopers, bio fanatics. Maybe or maybe not drop pods.).
I think the standard name for this image should be "TroopInfantry"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I repeat that IMHO InfantryTroop is unnecessary redundant, just Infantry is enough. But if you insist in that pic name, I�ll follow.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Fighters. S_J says he doesn't need extra fighter images after all, so I think just "FighterBomber" for Andres' TIE bomber. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Neither I do. I made three fighter sizes TIE Fighter, TIE Bomber and TIE Advanced using the Small, Large and Medium fighter pictures (they match the fighters I used in the SW-Emp1 shipset). In my mod they come with the SW racial advantage, and are smaller but this similar performance compared with standard fighters which they make obsolete and not worth researching.
Fighters I think could be useful to modders are smaller and bigger than standard, a FighterTiny and a FighterMassive.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Does this cover all your extra hull sizes?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It exceeds my extra sizes, but that�s not important. My mod adds very few sizes, and its not a great mod by itself.
What we need to do is to make enough ships pictures for modders to use. We can even create a simple mod using all the �standard� pictures.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Would you guys be happy to make the above changes to your vehiclesize.txt files?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I said that I haven�t updated that mod in a loooong time, but yes, next time I update it I�ll make it compatible.
But as I said in my previous post, it will be more important to create compatible shipsets.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Should we vote on "planetoid" vs "worldship" or "prospector" vs something else?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I would vote for �PlanetCraft� or �WorldShip�, something that makes clear that it is a ver big sized ship and not a stellar body.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>As for the prospector/miningstation, I'm thinking we want to get across the idea of "big ship with scoops/loading bays"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What about a �SpecialShip� and �SpecialStation� that could have different functions in different mods.

This is the VehicleSize file from Hadrian Aventine's Ultimate Mod (about to be updated), in case you want to take a look at the extra sizes there.

Suicide Junkie

November 18th, 2001, 04:12 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>What about a �SpecialShip� and �SpecialStation� that could have different functions in different mods.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The problem with that is "special" could mean so very many things.
The filename should describe the picture, but not limit the use too much.
Its all about balance.
"Big scoopy ship"
"Little scoopy ship"
"Civilian Craft"
"Superbig round ship"
"People with guns"
I think that's about the level of detail we need to specify with this image name standard.

--------------------

"Worldship" sounds good.

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 18 November 2001).]

geoschmo

November 18th, 2001, 05:28 AM

Hey, I am all for standardization and anything that makes it easier on people creating new shipsets. But I am not totally clear on the idea here. I appologize for my ignorance. I took on the task of updating the DevNull Mod mainly because I am such a fan of it and wanted to see it included in the CD. I am not really very proficient at the art of modding. My Trek Mod was just replacing images, I didn't really add anything.

I can see how there could be a problem if the mod has new images it's looking for and the shipsets don't have those images. But I don't see what needs done to the Devnull Mod. I looked through the vehiclesize.txt file and while he has added several new hull types, they all use the exsisting default images. How would this cause a problem for anyones shipsets? Wouldn't your special images jsut not get used and not give you any kind of error?

I am loathe to remove any of the hull sizes in Devnull Mod. I can see all sorts of problem with research and vehicle designs that I am not sure I am qualified to correct. And I don't see the need if they won't cause problems in the first place.

If you could clear me up on this I would be more than happy to get on board.

Geoschmo

Andr�s

November 18th, 2001, 05:35 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>"Big scoopy ship"
"Little scoopy ship"
"Civilian Craft"
"Superbig round ship"
"People with guns"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well it should describe the picture but not so literally.
Not all resource ships will have scoops,
Not all worldships will be round, maybe they are cubes
Some infantry can be monsters that fight without weapons, or small sized mechanized troops.
Civilian craft... No, don�t think there can be any civilian crafts (they shouldn�t be controlled by players, but by civilians in the pop) do you mean weaponless ships?

The idea of the special ship was just a ship like looks different. Although some carriers have visible fighter bays, most are just small, medium and large ships that match the shipset but look different than standard ships. The same happens with transports. So what about a third kind of ship that matches the shipset but looks different. Doesn�t matter exactly what function it performs, (it can be a resource ship, a specialized satellite layer, or whatever-a-modder-can-think-of) just that it looks different from other ships, and that there can be small, medium and large variations.

Andr�s

November 18th, 2001, 06:12 AM

You�re right Geo, DevNull mod adds new vehicle sizes, but uses the standard pictures, new shipsets should work alright.
But, when you�re creating a shipset, either if you�re drawing it from scratch, or using pictures compiled from some sci-fi source, can easily make or find pictures for those extra sizes.
But what would be the point of creating for example a Prospector picture, if it�s never going to be used.
Modification of the mod would be that, once we agree on a standard, use s_j�s proposed program or manually duplicate pictures and modifying the vehiclesizes file to use at least some of them. That way if you add shipset with extra pictures, the new sizes will use the new pictures. (I�ve been experimenting about creating extra pics for standard shipsets look at the attachments)
I hope this makes our objective clearer.

We�re dealing with pictures here getting the AI to research and design according to the mod is a completely different problem, and I don�t think that that can be standardized.

[This message has been edited by Andr�s Lescano (edited 18 November 2001).]

Suicide Junkie

November 19th, 2001, 04:02 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I am loathe to remove any of the hull sizes in Devnull Mod. I can see all sorts of problem with research and vehicle designs that I am not sure I am qualified to correct. And I don't see the need if they won't cause problems in the first place.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Nobody ever has to remove shipsizes.
All of the original SE4 images will always be there.

What we plan to do is define a set of add-on pictures that every shipset can be automatically updated to include.

That way, modders can use the extra images if they feel like it, without worrying about shipsets.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Well it should describe the picture but not so literally.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I never intended to use those as the actual filenames. That's just the mental image that the filename should evoke.
The filenames are just guidelines and act as an interface between the shipset designer and the modder.

If a modder wants a remote miner ship picture, they see "Scavenger: a big scoopy ship", and use that.
When a shipset designer sees the same thing, they can say "I'm doing a trek set, so I'll replace the scoops with Bussard Collector domes all over the bottom".

[Some infantry can be monsters that fight without weapons, or small sized mechanized troops.]
What? Monsters and droids are people too! And if they can kill with it, it's a weapon. Even if it looks just like bad breath.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The idea of the special ship was just a ship like looks different. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That's flexible for the shipset designer, but what modder would use it? If I have no idea what the thing looks like, how can I tell that it would be good for what I plan to use it for?
You could end up with anything, and chances are, its not what you want.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Civilian craft... No, don�t think there can be any civilian crafts (they shouldn�t be controlled by players, but by civilians in the pop) do you mean weaponless ships?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>What would be better than the military taking over a real civilian liner? You could mod it to be a great, cheap troop transport, or a "hiding in plain view" spyship.
They would be dirt cheap to build (well, more like steal), and would cause unhappiness as your pop notices you seizing private property.

geoschmo

November 19th, 2001, 04:42 AM

Ok, so I think I'm getting the idea. Basically you want to come up with a semi-standard set of shippic names, and then for the Devnull mod all I would have to do is change some of the custom hull types to use those shippic names instead of reusing the default ship pics the way devnellicus did originally. That doesn't sound too bad.

So for all the shipsets that are with the default game they will just use the generic shippics for those hull types? I don't really like that, but it wouldn't be too much trouble for me to just copy the exsisting images and renaming them with the neo-standard shippic names. If that's all the work I have to do to get with the standard, that won't bee too awful. It might add a couple hundred k to the mod download size, but it will still be well less than 2 MB. That's ok.

How soon are you going to get this going? If we are going to have this ready for the CD Versions, we need to get on the ball.

Geoschmo

Suicide Junkie

November 19th, 2001, 04:55 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I don't really like that, but it wouldn't be too much trouble for me to just copy the exsisting images and renaming them with the neo-standard shippic names. If that's all the work I have to do to get with the standard, that won't bee too awful. It might add a couple hundred k to the mod download size, but it will still be well less than 2 MB. That's ok.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I was thinking of writing a utility to to that copying.

Then shipsets only need the basic SE4 images, and the utility creates the standard's addons by copying the closest existing picture.
That way, you save on downloading, while still getting the full effect.

dogscoff

November 19th, 2001, 11:45 AM

Good to have you aboard Geo=-)

Good points raised by all. Andres: I see your point about the "planetoid" evoking a planet rather than a ship. For that reason I change my vote to "worldship" =-)

"Troopinfantry" vs "infantry". I just put the "troop" on the front so that when you list a shipset's files alphabtically, the troopinfantry picture will be alongside the other troops. That's the only difference. It's not really important.

Mining vs scavenger vs scoopy vs prospector vs..:
How about "CollectorShip" and "CollectorStation"? Or maybe "ResourceCollectorShip", but that's a bit long.

Love that Jraenar ship BTW. Did you edit the dreanought bmp or did you model and render it?

Finally..
Devnullmod: Now that P&N no longer has nomad resource hulls, and since both P&N and SW prfer to use standard fighter pics for their extra fighter hulls, I don't think there is much potential crossover between Dvnlmod and SW/P&N.
Therefore, naming the Dvnlmod extra sizes (Corvette, DestroyerHeavy, CruiserHeavy, SuperDreadnought, TransportCourier... umm... all the rest...) should be fairly straightforward. The only ones which might need discussion are

Really big hulls (supermonitor etc - could these be worldships?)
the fighters (already under discussion)
mining hulls (already under discussion.)
StellarManipulation Barge (Or should _that_ be a worldship?)

Opinions?

------------------
SE4 Code:
L GdY $ Fr- C- Sd T!+ Sf-- Tcp-- A% M>M+ MpD! RV Pw Fq+ Nd- Rp+ G-
/SE4 Code
Go to my meagre SEIV pages (http://www.sandman43.fsnet.co.uk/se4main.htm) to generate your own code.

[This message has been edited by dogscoff (edited 19 November 2001).]

dogscoff

November 19th, 2001, 04:03 PM

I'm quite keen to include Devnull into the standard since I have already made images for all those extra sizes (have you seen the vikings (http://www.sandman43.fsnet.co.uk/viking.htm)? There is some slightly less emotive reasoning behind it as well though...

The neo-standard (nice phrase, whoever coined that) will just be a list of file names for modders and shipset creators to refer to / ignore. It doesn't matter how big it gets. The only thing that might matter is how many generic / extra images you are prepared to put into your zip... but then S_J's proposed program would eliminate that problem, by copying & renaming standard images for those races which a lacked neo-standard image. (ie Destroyer > Heavy destroyer).

Also remember that there are different ways of distributing it: We could release a neo-standard modpack, with all the generic images, S_J's program and that Jraenar pic=-). If they wanted to, modders could then include no extra images but list the pack would then be a pre-requisite. Alternatively, each modder could include the entire pack in their mod, or each modder could just include the images necessary for their own mod (This makes most sense) or any combination of the above.
Anyway, the point is that for most mods, adhering to the neo-standard won't necessarily mean a major increase in zip size.

As for the stellar manip barge... I always assumed it was a ship with a max engines of 1. Mind you with solar sails etc I suppose you could still get 7 or 8 movement out of it. The only way around it would probably be to go all quasi-newtonian, which would mean a lot of work. Maybe that's why he used a base hull rather than a ship.
I've never used one (And I haven't yet drawn a viking picture for it=-) so I won't miss it if it goes.

------------------
SE4 Code:
L GdY $ Fr- C- Sd T!+ Sf-- Tcp-- A% M>M+ MpD! RV Pw Fq+ Nd- Rp+ G-
/SE4 Code
Go to my meagre SEIV pages (http://www.sandman43.fsnet.co.uk/se4main.htm) to generate your own code.

[This message has been edited by dogscoff (edited 19 November 2001).]

geoschmo

November 19th, 2001, 05:23 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by dogscoff:
As for the stellar manip barge... I always assumed it was a ship with a max engines of 1. Mind you with solar sails etc I suppose you could still get 7 or 8 movement out of it. The only way around it would probably be to go all quasi-newtonian, which would mean a lot of work. Maybe that's why he used a base hull rather than a ship.
I've never used one (And I haven't yet drawn a viking picture for it=-) so I won't miss it if it goes.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I believe the idea was a for a ship large enough to hold the stellar manip component so it could be built over a planet and moved to the star. He did not want the large ship to be abused and turned into a warship, so he made it a base with exactly enough room for a stellar manip component and one barge engine. It appeared he was intending to diasallow the barge engines to be used on other types of bases. By choosing a base hull you couldn't put solar sails on it anyway, so that abuse wouldn't happen. I think the intention was for it to only be able to go ane space per turn.

All in all it was a good idea, but it required a couple hard code changes that apparently aren't going to happen.

I'm pretty sure I'm going to remove it entirely. I don't want to turn it into a ship hull unless I can be sure it won't be abused as a super large warhip, for the same reasons he made it a base hull to begin with.
Maybe down the road I can add it back in some fashion, but I have other priorities right now.

Geo

dogscoff

November 19th, 2001, 05:29 PM

I believe (Not sure where I read thie, but it will b on these forums somewhere) Malfador is planning to put planet engines into an upcoming patch. Maybe that could provide some kind of solution to the barge problem.

------------------
SE4 Code:
L GdY $ Fr- C- Sd T!+ Sf-- Tcp-- A% M>M+ MpD! RV Pw Fq+ Nd- Rp+ G-
/SE4 Code
Go to my meagre SEIV pages (http://www.sandman43.fsnet.co.uk/se4main.htm) to generate your own code.

Suicide Junkie

November 19th, 2001, 06:20 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Therefore, naming the Dvnlmod extra sizes (Corvette, DestroyerHeavy, CruiserHeavy, SuperDreadnought, TransportCourier... umm... all the rest...) should be fairly straightforward.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, I question the "corvette". Exactly how big is it? I imagine somewhere from below an escort to a little less than LC, but that's a pretty wide range.
Also courier, would that be tiny, and/or fast?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I'm pretty sure I'm going to remove it entirely. I don't want to turn it into a ship hull unless I can be sure it won't be abused as a super large warhip, for the same reasons he made it a base hull to begin with.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>How about giving the hull one standard movement? Should work on the base hull, but be sure to set the engines per move to one, and max engines to zero.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I believe (Not sure where I read thie, but it will b on these forums somewhere (http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/Forum23/HTML/003309-2.html)) Malfador is planning to put planet engines into an upcoming patch. Maybe that could provide some kind of solution to the barge problem.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yeah, move the planet onto the star, and then build the SM base http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 19 November 2001).]

geoschmo

November 19th, 2001, 06:44 PM

Well, Devnellicus made the Corvette 200 Kt, and upped the Frigate to 250.

He also has something called a fast courier that uses the small transport pic and is 210 Kt and allows 8 engines.

And he has five classes of fighters.

I'll try adding the movment to the hull for the SM Barge. That shold work. Thanks.

Geo

[This message has been edited by geoschmo (edited 19 November 2001).]

Vger

November 19th, 2001, 06:58 PM

Hi,

Personally, I love the Courier hull and built many of them in my games to ferry troops and other units to the front quickly.

I also liked the idea of the barge and would hope you keep it if there's any chance of a change in the code.

Ciao,
V'ger gone

Suicide Junkie

November 19th, 2001, 10:44 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Personally, I love the Courier hull and built many of them in my games to ferry troops and other units to the front quickly.
I also liked the idea of the barge and would hope you keep it if there's any chance of a change in the code<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Don't worry Vger, we're not changing mods, just defining new pictures for them to use.
In that regard we are only discussing whether, and how to define a new image that could be used for those ships.

This standard does not extend beyond images and filenames.

Andr�s

November 19th, 2001, 11:37 PM

That Jraenar picture was made by editing bitmaps. I do not have 3d meshes of original ships, and trying to model something that matches so good would be too hard. What I did was basically combine the dreadnought with the engines of the battlecruiser.
It was an experiment to see it if was possible, not all needed new ship sizes for all existing shipsets would be possible to make this way, but I think that there are a lot that can. The plan would be to replace most copied pictures in time.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>How soon are you going to get this going? If we are going to have this ready for the CD Versions, we need to get on the ball.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hopefully we can agree soon with the set of names. Then it will be a matter of S_J writing the copying program and dogscoff and me getting a few sample shipsets. It would be great if I can make at least the complete generic shipset, in a similar way I made tha Jraenar ship.

This is my proposition for all sizes of the neo-standard. 20 new size pictures to be added to the 29 original ones, almost dulpicating installed size http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif
Format is
ShipPic - Alternative pic (copy source) - simple description.

Corvette - Frigate - Normal ship between ES and FG
DestroyerHeavy - Destroyer - Normal ship between DS and LC
CruiserHeavy - BattleCruiser - Normal ship between CR and BC
DreadnoughtHeavy - Dreadnought/Baseship - Normal ship between DN and baseship
Baseship - Starbase - Normal baseship
BaseshipHeavy? - Baseship/Starbase - bigger than baseship, not sure about this.
WorldShipSmall - None(use generic-neutral if not available) - Battlemoon/death star
WorldShipMedium - None(use generic-neutral if not available) - Battlemoon/death star
WorldShipLarge - None(use generic-neutral if not available) - Battlemoon/death star

ResourceShipSmall - TransportSmall - ship with reduced manteinance for remote mining
ResourceShipLarge - TransportLarge - the same but bigger

CarrierTiny - CarrierLight - carrier smaller than light carrier
CarrierMassive - CarrierHeavy - carrier bigger than heavy carrier

BaseOutpost - BattleStation - Base between battestation and starbase

ColonyShipLarge - ColonyShip - bigger Version of colony ship

TransportTiny - TransportSmall - smaller transport, presumable faster
Should we add a massive one?

FighterHuge - FighterLarge - bigger fighter
FighterMassive - FighterLarge/Escort - even bigger fighter

InfantryTroop - RacePortrait/Pop TroopSmall- very small troop
TroopHuge - TroopLarge - bigger troop

Here's the analysis of vehicle sizes in different mods I used to came up with the conclusion above. I think I considered the most important mods by now. I include my starwars mod only because it was mentioned in this thread, but I don't think it is comparable with those other great mods.

All vehicle sizes are listed in this format:
Name - PicName - Tonnage - Mod(s) where it appears

Mods:
None - Standard Unmoded Game
DN - Devnull Mod
P&N - Pirates & Nomads
UM - Ultimate Mod
SW - Star Wars Mod

Normal Ships:
Escort - Escort - 150 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Corvette - Frigate - 200 - DN
Frigate - Frigate - 200 - None/DN(250kt)/P&N/UM/SW
Monitor - Frigate - 250 - UM
Destroyer - Destroyer - 300 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Heavy Destroyer - Destroyer - 350 - DN/UM(GunShip)
Light Cruiser - LightCruiser - 400 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Orbital Battleship - Cruiser - 750 (slow) - UM
Cruiser - Cruiser - 500 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Heavy Cruiser - BattleCruiser - 600 - DN/UM(575)
Battle Cruiser - BattleCruiser - 600 - None/DN(650kt)/P&N/UM/SW
Battleship - Battleship - 800 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Dreadnought - Dreadnought - 1000 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Super Dreadnought - Dreadnought - 1250 - DN/UM(Behemoth)
Baseship - Starbase - 1500 - None/DN(Monitor)/P&N/UM/SW
Super Monitor - Starbase - 2000 - DN
BattleMoon - MassiveBaseShip - 10000 - P&N/SW(Small Death Star-15000kt)
Medium Death Star - mds - 30000 - SW
Large Death Star - lds - 60000 - SW

Both DN and UM add a 250kt ship, UM adds it as monitor, while DN adds a 200kt corvette and moves the frigate to 250. We only need 1 extra size here, either between ES and FG or between FG and DS. Corvette
DN and UM add a ship between DS and LC. DestroyerHeavy
DN and UM add a Heavy Cruiser ship between CR and BC. CruiserHeavy
DN and UM add a ship between DN and baseship. DreadnoughtHeavy
Baseships deserve their own picture. Baseship
DN super monitors are bigger than baseships, but not even close to battlemoons. Probably they should re-use the monitor/baseship picture not being worth of a new one. BaseshipHeavy?
BattleMoons and Death Stars far above the rest. WorldShipSmall - WorldShipMedium - WorldShipLarge

(UM- Malfadorian)
Galley - Escort - 650 - UM
Trireme - Cruiser - 1300 - UM
Juggernaught - Battleship - 1950 - UM
Magnus Prime - Dreadnought - 2600 - UM

UM adds this ship sizes to players with a specific racial advantage.
I don't know enough about this mod. Maybe they can use pictures to show better their real size, or maybe they are meant to look small (the galley is bigger than a battlecruiser, but looks like an escort).

Special Abilities
Observer - Escort - 130 (built in cloak) - UM
Science Ship - Destroyer - 375 (built in sensors/scanners) - UM
Stellar Manipulator Barge - TransportLarge - 2010 - DN

I'm not sure if these sizes need new pictures or can re-use the ones above.

Prospector - TransportSmall - 200 - DN
Mining Base - TransportLarge - 500 - DN

These ones are nice, maybe a ResourceShipSmall and ResourceShipLarge.

Scenario Resource Ship - Destroyer - 3000 - P&N

Not sure of what is this. It seems to be used only in scenario editing making and not normally available for players. A picture wouldn't be necessary.

Carriers:
Escort Carrier - CarrierLight - 500 - DN/UM(Converted Carrier-TransportMedium-400)
Light Carrier - CarrierLight - 800 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Carrier - Carrier - 1000 - None/DN(Fleet Carrier)/P&N/UM/SW
Heavy Carrier - CarrierHeavy - 1200 - None/DN(1300-Assault Carrier)/P&N/UM(Large Carrier)/SW
Heavy Carrier - CarrierHeavy - 1400 - UM

DN and UM add a 400-500 carrier smaller than light carrier CarrierTiny
UM adds another carrier bigger than normal heavy carrier. CarrierMassive

Bases
Space Station - SpaceStation - 500 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Battle Station - BattleStation - 1500 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Outpost - BattleStation - 2000 - UM
Starbase - Starbase - 2500 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW

Only new base is UM outpost. Do we need a new pic? BaseOutpost

Colony Ships
Colony Ship - ColonyShip - 300 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Ark Ship - ColonyShip - 500 - DN/UM(Colonization Liner)

Dn and UM add a ColonyShipLarge
Note that although a colony ship is the same sze of destroyer, most pictures look as big as a cruiser or battlecruiser.

Transports
Fast Courier - TransportSmall - 210 - DN
Small Transport - TransportSmall - 300 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Medium Transport - TransportMedium - 600 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Large Transport - TransportLarge - 900 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Small Freighter - TransportSmall - 320 (faster) - UM
Medium Freighter - TransportMedium - 620 (faster) - UM
Large Freighter - TransportLarge - 920 (faster) - UM

DN adds a small fast courier. TransportTiny
UM adds a second set of 3 transports, faster and slightly bigger than the first one. they shouldn't need new pics.

Fighters
Small Fighter - FighterSmall - 15 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Medium Fighter - FighterMedium - 20 - None/DN(Interceptor)/P&N/UM/SW
Large Fighter - FighterLarge - 25 - None/DN(Assault Fighter)/P&N/UM/SW
Huge Fighter - FighterLarge - 40 - DN(35kt-Fighter-Bomber)/UM
Heavy Assault Bomber - FighterLarge - 50 - DN/UM(60kt-Skirmisher)

DN and UM add two fighters above large fighter. FighterHuge - FighterMassive

(P&N-Nomads)
Medium Fighter - FighterSmall - 20 - P&N
Large Fighter - FighterSmall - 25 - P&N
Heavy Fighter - FighterMedium - 35 - P&N
Massive Fighter - FighterLarge - 50 - P&N

P&N nomads have a set of 4 fighters, they could use one of the extra fighters above. The think big racial trait adds variations, but they shouldn't need new pics.

(TIEs)
TIE Fighter - FighterSmall - 7 - SW
TIE Bomber - FighterLarge - 11 - SW
TIE Advanced - FighterMedium - 14 - SW

And TIEs in SW use normal fighter pics.

Satellites
Small Satellite - Satellite - 80 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Medium Satellite - Satellite - 100 - None/DN /P&N/UM/SW
Large Satellite - Satellite - 120 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW

There are no new sats, exept for the P&N think big in (100-125-150)

Mines
Small Mine - Mine - 10 - None/DN(5)/P&N/UM/SW
Medium Mine - Mine - 15 - None/DN(10)/P&N/UM/SW
Large Mine - Mine - 20 - None/DN(15)/P&N/UM/SW

DN reduces the size of mines, and only new mines are the P&N think big (12-18-25)

Troops
Light Infantry - Infantry - 1 - SW/P&N(Drop Pod)
Heavy Infantry - Infantry - 2 - SW
Small Troop - TroopSmall - 10 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Medium Troop - TroopMedium - 15 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Large Troop - TroopLarge - 20 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Huge Troop - TroopLarge - 40 - UM

SW and P&N add an InfantryTroop
UM adds a TroopHuge
Think P&N- Think Big also adds bigger variations without needing new pics.

Weapon Platforms
Small Weapons Platform - WeapPlatformSmall - 200 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Medium Weapons Platform - WeapPlatformMedium - 400 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW
Large Weapons Platform - WeapPlatformLarge - 600 - None/DN/P&N/UM/SW

Nothing new here exept for the P&N think big (250-500-750)

geoschmo

November 20th, 2001, 12:28 AM

20 neo-shippics makes for an extra 20 MB for the install. Zipped up for download that would add 6MB to the mod size. For Devnull that quadruples the size for the download. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/shock.gif

I know the plan is to have a batch file pic converter or something. I guess I am just concerned that we are asking for trouble with players that just want the mod and aren't worried about the new shipsets. They might not take the time to run the utility. This would cause errors, no?

If I include the new images in the generic folder in the download, I guess that will work. That would only add about 230 k to the zip file. That way if they don't run the utility for some reason it will just pull the generic Version of the images and they won't get an error.

Geoschmo

geoschmo

November 20th, 2001, 02:57 AM

I'm probably going to drop the stellar manipulation barge from the Devnull mod. It was designed with the idea that Malfador would add the ability for engines to bases at some point. I don't think that is going to happen. Or I may keep it and change it to a ship hull instead of a base hull. I haven't decided. The way it is now it serves no purpose.

There are a few ship sizes in Devnull that are unique and very close to standard hull types, Heavy Cruiser etc., maybe they shouldn't be added to the standard. In those cases I could just continue using the default shippics. If we add shippics to the standard for every unique shippic in every mod, the standard is going to get humungous IMHO.

Tha being said if yuo can find some overlap or something that would work, I am mroe than willing to change those shippic names to match a standard.

Geoschmo

Suicide Junkie

November 20th, 2001, 03:32 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>20 neo-shippics makes for an extra 20 MB for the install. Zipped up for download that would add 6MB to the mod size. For Devnull that quadruples the size for the download.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>How many races are you including with your mod?

Each installed shipset will be increased by 1MB, almost exactly. (1.035 MB).
I know that pictures are horrendous downloads. Even one shipset is roughly the same size as my P&N mod.

You definitely need to separate the mod+generic and the addon shipsets.
Especially since these shipsets will work under any mod, and you don't want to download the same thing three or four times, once with each mod.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>BaseOutpost - BattleStation - Base between battestation and starbase<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>How about:
Warstation (space S., battle S., war S., starbase)
or SpaceFortress (Space St. -> SpaceFortress, Battle St. -> Starbase)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>BaseshipHeavy? - Baseship/Starbase - bigger than baseship, not sure about this.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Logical name, I'd go for it.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Observer - Escort - 130 (built in cloak) - UM<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I would have made use of the Drone image for this http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Not sure of what is this. It seems to be used only in scenario editing making and not normally available for players. A picture wouldn't be necessary.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yep.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>ShipPic - Alternative pic (copy source) - simple description.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Note that it is very easy to have multiple, prioritzed sources.
So the program could first look for a worldshipsmall, then massivebaseship, then worldship medium, then worldship large before giving up and using the generic image.

Andr�s

November 20th, 2001, 03:49 AM

A little over 1 mb more for each shipset, that means that if I wanted to upgrade every shipset I have installed (131) I would run out of disk space.

IIRC Devnull mod includes the 20 original races, only AI and no pics. S_J your program should be able to copy from the base race directory when called from inside a mod.

I agree 6 mb extra would make a mod too big, particularly if they are just repeated pictures.
Maybe I�m exaggerating, and not the 20 sizes I mentioned are necessary, they could be reduced to 12-15, without leaving out any important pic. But it would still be a lot of space.

Think they wouldn�t mind if extra pictures were actually new pictures, in fact they would be glad to have different sizes looking different.
That�s why we were thinking about a copying utility, and why Dogscoff suggested different distributing methods. I don�t think there will be a problem with people not running the copying utility. Many people will try to run the mod without running it before, I agree. But after they see an error will check in the readme that they need to run the utility.

geoschmo

November 20th, 2001, 04:08 AM

Ok, I have a suggestion.

I can leave the mod the way it is, and include in the mod data dirctory a file called NeoVehicleSize.txt. This file will be identical to the regular mod VehicleSize file, but using the NeoStandard shippic names instead. Then we write the utility to copy all the bitmaps and copy the Neo file over the regular mod VehicleSize file.

For those people that want the neostandard for custom shipsets, it would be no extra work. This way the mod download size remains small, and people that aren't concerned with the custom shipsets don't have to hassle with it. Coming from a support background, I can tell you no matter how good your program is, someone is going to have a problem with it.

What do you guys think? This would remove my Last remaining reservations about what I think is a great idea overall.

One other thing. The utility will be writing the over the pic files in the mod directories, not the default SEIV directory right? Even though the pics are new pics and not overwriting exsisting files, we shouldn't be messing with peoples default directories.

Geoschmo

Andr�s

November 20th, 2001, 04:16 AM

I like it alternative vehicle size files using standad and neo-standard pic sets. Maybe we can release a little file with sample shipsets and vehiclesizes files for different mods.

Maybe this will complicate the program too much, but could it look into the VehicleSizes.txt and only copy pictures that are referenced there?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
quote:
BaseshipHeavy? - Baseship/Starbase - bigger than baseship, not sure about this.

Logical name, I'd go for it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Question here was do we need another picture for this? Or Super Monitors should use baseship pictures just like the normal Monitor?

[This message has been edited by Andr�s Lescano (edited 20 November 2001).]

Suicide Junkie

November 20th, 2001, 06:26 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I can leave the mod the way it is, and include in the mod data dirctory a file called NeoVehicleSize.txt. This file will be identical to the regular mod VehicleSize file, but using the NeoStandard shippic names instead. Then we write the utility to copy all the bitmaps and copy the Neo file over the regular mod VehicleSize file.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Excellent Idea. The Last line of the utility can copy the vehiclesize to a backup, then write over it with NSVS.txt.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>One other thing. The utility will be writing the over the pic files in the mod directories, not the default SEIV directory right? Even though the pics are new pics and not overwriting exsisting files, we shouldn't be messing with peoples default directories.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The utility will never overwrite an existing file, except maybe the vehiclesize.txt as above.

If that's not enough, run it from the mod folder, and I'll have it look into the .\pictures\races folder and upgrade all the races it finds.

Now there is still the question of space. If we drag copies of all the races in the default directory out into mod folders, we'll have Andr�s problem multiplied by the number of mods
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>A little over 1 mb more for each shipset, that means that if I wanted to upgrade every shipset I have installed (131) I would run out of disk space.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Maybe this will complicate the program too much, but could it look into the VehicleSizes.txt and only copy pictures that are referenced there?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Better yet (and simpler, too), I could just read from a mod-specific .INI file (a subset of our full .INI, leaving out some image definitions). The modder could specify which of the standard's images are required, and also which images to take as secondary choices.
This might weaken the standard a bit, since modders could define their own set of required images, but shipsets would be coming out with standard images, and it would be a bit of work to alter on your own. (Deleting sections that don't apply to your mod is easy, but adding a few new ones takes more time)

Decision time.

dogscoff

November 20th, 2001, 12:19 PM

Wow... looks like you guys sorted it all out while I was asleep. Nice one=-) Not much to add, since I agree with just about everything suggested since I Last posted. A few things though:

A>Configuration:
I've studied Andres' list and I am in almost complete agreement. Here is the list I think we should use.
1>Scout: Although it's not in any of the discussed mods, it seems popular (Already mentioned on this thread) and could be used for the UM Observer.
2>Corvette
3>DestroyerHeavy
4>CruiserHeavy
5>Dreadnought
6>Baseship
7>BaseshipHeavy: Andres had this question marked. I think there is plenty of space between base ship and worldship. As well as Devnullmod, ZeroAdunn's mod uses a ship of this type.
8>WorldShipSmall
9>WorldShipMedium
10>WorldShipLarge
11>ResourceShip: See number 12 for reason behind name change.
12>ResourceStation: I think in Devnullmod this is actually a station rather than a ship, so I propose this name rather than ResourceShipLarge. Also, we have to consider mods other than the ones discussed here (Including future mods). They may well prefer to have their mining hulls as stations rather than ships.
13>CarrierTiny
14>CarrierMassive
15>BaseOutpost
16>ColonyShipLarge
17>TransportTiny
18>FighterHuge
19>FighterMassive
20>TroopInfantry: I think we should call it either TroopInfantry (For alphabetical reasons) or just Infantry (Most acurate description), rather than InfantryTroop as in Andres' post.
21>TroopHuge
22>StellarManipBarge: Andres had a question mark over this one. I think it should go in.

This 22-ship configuration will cover all the discussed mods nicely, and leave plenty of scope for other mods.

B>Although most race-specific Neo pics will be generated by the program and therefore identical to standard pics (ie Phong_FighterHuge will be a copy of Phong_FighterLarge) I am assuming that we will create a full set of Neo Generics, for those who don't run the program. I think we should definitely throw in that Jraenar pic and a few others at random as a sort of "bonus"=-)

C>Where should the NeoMaker utility put all of the extra files? I can appreciate the argument to leave default directories alone, but duplicating images into however many mod dirs is crazy.
How about putting them in the default directories but have an uninstall option?

D>I love the name neostandard, but wasn't there a guy on the forum called Neo? Or am I imagining him? Don't think I've heard from him in a while.

E>Distribution: So as I understand it the Neo-Standard will consist of a program (with supporting text & ini files) and maybe a few dozen pictures. That would make it what... half a meg when zipped? Should we put it in with each mod or distribute seperately, with each mod carrying just a neovehiclesize.txt or what?

F>Program: S_J - you could incorporate your piratepatcher program into it - have it do 2 jobs at once.

G>Pixelling: The Vikings would require another 12 images for the 22 ship configuration listed above. If we can agree a final configuration I'll get started on making the Vikings the first fully Neo-Standard compliant shipset as an example to everyone else=-) Then I'll need to talk nicely to Rollo about AIs for all these Neo compliant mods=-) I would have to share my time between that and work on the neo generics. Shouldn't be a problem.

------------------
SE4 Code:
L GdY $ Fr- C- Sd T!+ Sf-- Tcp-- A% M>M+ MpD! RV Pw Fq+ Nd- Rp+ G-
/SE4 Code
Go to my meagre SEIV pages (http://www.sandman43.fsnet.co.uk/se4main.htm) to generate your own code.

[This message has been edited by dogscoff (edited 20 November 2001).]

Suicide Junkie

November 20th, 2001, 05:37 PM

F>
Well, I'll have to rewrite the patcher, since I lost the souce code months ago.

C>
It would not be a problem to add a text file listing all of the images the program added. It would then be simple to remove them.

E>
Sounds reasonable. We might want to compile a bunch of NVS.TXTs for each of the mods around here, as a starting point for modders, and a very simple update for gamers.

Andr�s

November 20th, 2001, 05:47 PM

9 of the 22 neo-generic pictures ready.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>12>ResourceStation: I think in Devnullmod this is actually a station rather than a ship, so I propose this name rather than ResourceShipLarge. Also, we have to consider mods other than the ones discussed here (Including future mods). They may well prefer to have their mining hulls as stations rather than ships.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I checked DN vehicle size again, it's called mining base, but it's in a ship hull and has maxengines=2. It's a ship. A resource station picture sound good, maybe it can look like a base, or be a 23rd pic.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>15>BaseOutpost<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I vote for Warstation as suicide_junkie suggested.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>20>TroopInfantry: I think we should call it either TroopInfantry (For alphabetical reasons) or just Infantry (Most acurate description), rather than InfantryTroop as in Andres' post.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's what I was thinking about, thanks for correcting me.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>E>Distribution: So as I understand it the Neo-Standard will consist of a program (with supporting text & ini files) and maybe a few dozen pictures. That would make it what... half a meg when zipped? Should we put it in with each mod or distribute seperately, with each mod carrying just a neovehiclesize.txt or what?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I propose creating a neo-standard package, including the program, whatever inis needed, generic and original shipset pics, and a neo-vehiclesizes for all mods discussed here. Maybe even a new and simple mod that just adds the new sizes.

dogscoff

November 20th, 2001, 06:02 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
generic images ready
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yoink! That was quick!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
It's a ship. A resource station picture sound good, maybe it can look like a base, or be a 23rd pic.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm. OK. Personally I think 2 resource images is enough. I would vote for a ship and a station rather than 2 ships. Look at P&N, when that had resource hulls, he used one of each.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
Warstation
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That gets my vote too.
I like the idea of an "exmaple" mod as well=-)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
Lost source code
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's a shame=-( It was just an idea...

OK, I'm about to post an introduction / recap to this thread, then I'm going to start crossposting to some other threads, mailing pople and generally try to get some interest. After all the neo-standard won't b much good without some more shipset ppl.

------------------
SE4 Code:
L GdY $ Fr- C- Sd T!+ Sf-- Tcp-- A% M>M+ MpD! RV Pw Fq+ Nd- Rp+ G-
/SE4 Code
Go to my meagre SEIV pages (http://www.sandman43.fsnet.co.uk/se4main.htm) to generate your own code.

dogscoff

November 20th, 2001, 06:03 PM

This post is for anyone wondering what the hell this is about. Please correct me if anything here is wrong. It's also my way of getting my head around it=-)

First up I should point out that the neo-standard is nothing to do with Hadrian Aventine's neoverse or ZeroAdunn's neo-mod, although I'm hoping they'll both participate. The word "neo" just sounds cool, that's all=-)

Here's a brief explanation of what this thread is all about.
We are creating what we call (so far) the neo-standard, which is an expansion on Malfador's standard ship list (escort, frigate etc.) We want to include things like Massive fighters, Worldships and infantry. Modders can choose tp comply with the standard so that their mods will be compatible with a greater number of shipsets, and vice versa.

Here's a not so brief explanation of what this thread is all about.
A bunch of us have noticed that there are an awful lot of mods out there which use non-standard ships sizes in their vehiclesize.txt files. The trouble is that when adding new vehicle classes, modders are limited to 2 options:

A> Create additional images for the generic shipset. The game defaults to these if a shipset doesn't have a particular ship image. Pirates and Nomads uses this method with it's battlemoon. The advantage is that shipsets creators can make race-specific images for the extra shipsizes. The drawback is that generic images tend to look out of place in the middle of another shipset.

B> Different classes of ships share the same image. For example, in Devnull mod, both the frigate and corvette currently use the same image. Although these images fit in better than generics, the disadvantage is that you end up with two classes of ship looking exactly the same.

So we have come up with a new solution which should give the advantages of both options without the disadvantages:
First of all, we have identified those extra images which need to be added. We've done this by comparing Devnullmod (recently resurrected by GeoSchmoe), Andres Lescano's Star Wars mod, Ultimate Mod, Pirates and Nomads and Zero Adunn's Neomod.
We've come up with a list of around 20 extra images which should cover most of the probable additions to the vehiclesize.txt

This list, when finished, will be the basis of the neo-standard.

Obviously these are just images, and do not dictate what properties the actual ship has. For example, the Pirates and Nomads Battlemoon will use the same picture as Andres' Death Stars. They're not the same ship, but they look similar enough. Modders can use the images however they like, but we have tried to use unambiguous and descriptive names which will provide a rough guideline for modders and shipset creators alike, so that there will be a certain level of consistency.

Next, Andres and I will create generic images for all of the classes on the list. Modders will then be able to refer to non-standard filenames in the knowledge that they won't ever create a "file not found" error. This gives the advantages of option A above.

Now the clever bit: To avoid the disadvantages of option A, we copy and rename existing images: For example, Phong_Escort is copied to Phong_Scout and so on. This provides the advantages of Option B.

This will create something in the region of 400-500 extra images on a standard installation. Someone like Andres who has over 130 races installed would have up to 150 megs' worth of new data created.
Obviously no one wants to download all that, so S_J will write a cool little program to do all the work locally. After all, everything you need to create all those extra images is already on your computer.
If you still don't fancy having all that extra data filling up your hard drive, just don't run the program. Until the program is run, compliant mods won't require the extra images: Each compliant mod will supply 2 Versions of the vehiclesize.txt file, one using standard images and one using neo-standard. The program replaces the standard file for the neo-standard one.

The advantages of the Neo-standard are obvious:
1> Shipset creators can create as many images for a shipset as they like. In theory, the program could be configured so that it can build a whole (but rather boring) shipset out of just one image. Obviously we want shipset creators to create more, rather than less than the old standard though.
2> Shipsets designed for one specific mod (ie just enough images for Star Wars and nothing more) will suddenly be compatible, or at least partially compatible, with loads of mods.
3> Mods with extra ship sizes will look prettier. By tapping into the Neo-standard, they will gain access to a host of shipsets with images that will work in their mod. At the same time, the Neo-Standard does not restrict a modders' freedom in anyway. They can use what they want to use and ignore the rest. They might neo-standard images alongside images which aren't part of *any* standard.

We welcome input and co-operation from any modders and shipset creators. This standard can only be only as good as the mods and shipsets that participate.

Thanks for your time=-)

------------------
SE4 Code:
L GdY $ Fr- C- Sd T!+ Sf-- Tcp-- A% M>M+ MpD! RV Pw Fq+ Nd- Rp+ G-
/SE4 Code
Go to my meagre SEIV pages (http://www.sandman43.fsnet.co.uk/se4main.htm) to generate your own code.

chewy027

November 20th, 2001, 06:11 PM

20 new classes seems like a lot, but i like the idea. Heck once the list is finalized i'll try to upgrade the vandron and the hevordah to the new...i mean neo standard.

Zarix

November 20th, 2001, 08:23 PM

This is very good idea. I will try to find some time to make new pics for Toron and Aquilaeian shipsets when the list is ready.

Andr�s

November 21st, 2001, 01:04 AM

Ok a couple more pics. Dogscog promises he'll help me complete the generic shipset, looks like we're going to have it complete soon.

We already have a set of 22 pictures if you want to start working on your shipsets. A few sizes may be added or removed but this is how it looks now.

1>Scout - smaller than escort
2>Corvette - between escort and frigate (or rename the frigate corvette and make a new frigate)
3>DestroyerHeavy - between destroyer and light cruiser
4>CruiserHeavy - between cruiser and battlecruiser
5>DreadnoughtHeavy - between dreadnough and baseship
6>Baseship - very big base sized ship
7>BaseshipHeavy - even bigger ship
8>WorldShipSmall - planet sized ship
9>WorldShipMedium - bigger Version of worldship
10>WorldShipLarge - even bigger Version of worldship
11>ResourceShip - resource miner ship
12>ResourceStation - resource miner station
13>CarrierTiny - smaller carrier
14>CarrierMassive - bigger carrier
15>Warstation - base between battlestation and starbase
16>ColonyShipLarge
17>TransportTiny - smaller and probably faster transport
18>FighterHuge - bigger fighter
19>FighterMassive - even bigger fighter
20>TroopInfantry - Human sized troop
21>TroopHuge - very big troop
22>StellarManipBarge - big weaponless ship

The Neo-Standard Picset needs a homepage. Updating what is in Dogscoff's web page could be a good start, then we could add the descriptions posted here, the generic pictures I'm making(like examples beside each size), and the finished package for download. If you want I can host it in KDY.

chewy027

November 21st, 2001, 01:33 AM

ok thanks for the list. here are a couple of questions and comments
- why 3 classes of worldships i mean isn't one enough Why if you can destroy a planet with one size ship would you bother to build the bigger ones plus it would be easier to maks just one worldship pic
-why have a baseshipheavy if your gonna have world ships seeme like the same thing to me
- i can see having one more size of fighters but i think the massive fighter would be the same as the scout so either nix the scout or nix the massive fighter
- to me the transporttiny and carriertiny are pretty useless. i see the advantage of being a little faster but if your going to use fighters your not gonna use a tiny carrier and if you use troops same thing applies
- so i guess what i'm suggesting is getting rid of 7,8,9, and 10 and just making 1 worldship and getting rid of 13,17, and 19

only trying to make some suggestions that will compress the number of new pics we will have to make. I really think the neo-standard is cool but some of this stuff is a little overboard IMHO.

Rollo

November 21st, 2001, 02:06 AM

I have to agree with chewey that 3 worldships is a bit too much (is that used by a mod? SW maybe?). I do think the baseshipheavy is a good idea, though. So from dreadnought to superdreadnought to baseship to baseshipheavy to worldship seems a good progression.
- about massive fighter vs. scout: they might not be much different in size, but one is a ship and the other is a unit.
- I do like the idea of smaller carriers, one for each level of fighters, I assume. IMHO the smallest carrier in the stock Version is too big, anyway. Hehe, it's a nice way to get heavy mounts early, though http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif.
- smaller and faster transports seem like a good idea, too.

So except for the three deathstars/battlemoons/whatever this all sounds very good.

But heck, what do I have to say? I am neither a modder nor a shipset maker http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/tongue.gif. Just do as you feel best. This sounds very good and promising http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif.

Rollo

edit:typo

[This message has been edited by Rollo (edited 21 November 2001).]

Suicide Junkie

November 21st, 2001, 02:19 AM

Six new images from baseship to battlemoon does seem like a lot, but it doesen't matter much to me.

We need to hear more from the pure gamers, other modders and shipset designers like Rollo.

Andr�s

November 21st, 2001, 04:11 AM

About worldships, yes they�re used in the SW mod that isn�t a very popular mod.
I think it should be ok to make only 1, but there�s plenty of space between the 2000kt heavy baseship and the theoretical limit of 65535 kt.

Thanks to my brother insistence I�m about to resurrect the Ultimate Vehicle Size Mod.
Anyone here played with it? For those not familiar with this mod it adds a massive number of new hull sizes what gives a complete new scale to the game, but adds no new components.
60 normal ships from 75 to 40000 kt
20 carriers from 130 to 31400 kt
20 bases from 250 to 65000 kt
5 colony ships from 240 to 370 kt
20 transports from 150 to 23500 kt
10 fighters from 7 to 56 kt
10 satellites from 40 to 200 kt
10 mines from 5 to 100 kt
10 troops from 1 to 100 kt
35 weapon mounts used by different type of vehicles
Some tests show that AI can easily be patched to work in the mod.
Of course that I don�t want a different picture for each of these 165 hull sizes, but I�ll make it use the standard for the smallest ones. And for the biggest ones, well they won�t be used that much and it doesn�t really matter if a 15000 kt ship looks the same as a 35000 kt one, if it is an enemy you know you�re in trouble.

chewy027

November 21st, 2001, 06:15 AM

wow talk about overboard http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif

dogscoff

November 21st, 2001, 11:16 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
- why 3 classes of worldships i mean isn't one enough
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, as with all these images, they were included because they are used in a mod. If you don't want to design 3 worldships for your shipset - no problem, just do one. S_J's program will fill in the gaps. A worldship image isn't that hard to make though, and once you've made one you can make 2 more by just resizing it. (check out the generics)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
Why if you can destroy a planet with one size ship would you bother to build the bigger ones plus it would be easier to maks just one worldship pic
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

See response above, but there's more to battlemoons / death stars than destroying planets. Hell, you can get a planet destroyer on a destroyer - doesn't mean you shouldn't research beyond that.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
-why have a baseshipheavy if your gonna have world ships seeme like the same thing to me
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Base Ship Heavy is the middle ground between the baseship (standard SE4 hull, but it normally uses the starbase image) and the worldships. Basically it's for mods which want something bigger than a baseship but shaped like a ship, not a planet. Devnullmod calls it a supermonitor and neomod calls it a megaship. I think this one will prove quite popular with modders.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
- i can see having one more size of fighters but i think the massive fighter would be the same as the scout so either nix the scout or nix the massive fighter
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again, there are several mods which add 2 extra fighter sizes, (although some of them choose not to use additional images) so we put in 2 extra fighter images. The scout... point taken, but in some shipsets there is still a big visual difference between a big fighter and a small ship.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
- to me the transporttiny and carriertiny are pretty useless. i see the advantage of being a little faster but if your going to use fighters your not gonna use a tiny carrier and if you use troops same thing applies
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Again, used in Devnullmod. Remember that adding a smaller image doesn't necessarily mean a smaller hull: You could move the small carrier hull to the tiny image, shift medium to small, large to medium and then have an extra image at the top for a larger hull. The same applies (in reverse) to the larger fighter images.

Again though, we don't want to tell anyone what to do with this. Just to suggest. If you don't want to create 20 extra images for your shipset that's perfectly understandable - just do as many as you are comfortable with and let S_J's program fill in the gaps. I'll be providing a full set for the vikings but that's only becasue (a) I'm an obsessive completist and (b) I want the vikings to be the "flagship" of the neo-standard.

I envisage shipsets being designed with just one particular mod in mind, but the beauty of this system is that _any_ extra work you do won't be lost in a single mod and appreciated by only a small minority of our niche within a niche community. The website (be it on mine or Andres' webspace) will include a table of images, hulls and mods so that you can decide which images you need to include for compatbility with your chosen mods.

------------------
SE4 Code:
L GdY $ Fr- C- Sd T!+ Sf-- Tcp-- A% M>M+ MpD! RV Pw Fq+ Nd- Rp+ G-
/SE4 Code
Go to my meagre SEIV pages (http://www.sandman43.fsnet.co.uk/se4main.htm) to generate your own code.

dogscoff

November 21st, 2001, 04:51 PM

OK... I'm currently putting together a few web pages for the Neo-Standard. It's not finished yet though, I'll need some more info.

I'll try to upload the files in about 4 or 5 hours time to this URL (http://www.sandman43.fsnet.co.uk/neostand.htm)

Andres, Geo, S_J , please could you look it over and inform me of any glaring errors / incorrect assumptions. Things to look at:
-The descriptions and URLs of your mods on the mods and shipsets page.
-The secondary images and descriptions in the main table. Do you agree?
-S_J, will battlemoons be WorldShipLarge? Do you plan to use the inantry pic for your biofanatics?
-The download page: We still haven't agreed on a distribution method. I'm worried that if we include a copy in each compliant mod, ppl will end up downloading older Versions and messing up their files, as well as the duplication of data.
-On the "What is this?" link, at the bottom is a section on how to participate. Is this all OK?
-Typos, stupid mistakes (my speciality)
-Generally, is it OK? What would you add / remove?

This doesn't have to be the official or the only site. I just had some files left over from Last time.

Also, are there any more compliant shipsets I could link to? I seem to remember one with it's own battlemoon...

------------------
SE4 Code:
L GdY $ Fr- C- Sd T!+ Sf-- Tcp-- A% M>M+ MpD! RV Pw Fq+ Nd- Rp+ G-
/SE4 Code
Go to my meagre SEIV pages (http://www.sandman43.fsnet.co.uk/se4main.htm) to generate your own code.

chewy027

November 21st, 2001, 06:20 PM

well if andres doesn't mind nocking the number of worldships down to 1 then i guess that makes it official right? Cause his is the only mod that uses 3. So at least thats 2 less. So instead of having the three worldship classes i guess the obvious thing would be to just call it portrait/mini_wordlship

I think i'll work on the vandron first. I already have a massive base ship in there anyway for SJ

[This message has been edited by chewy027 (edited 21 November 2001).]

Suicide Junkie

November 21st, 2001, 06:27 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Andres, Geo, S_J , please could you look it over and ...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>As of this post, the page is not up, and I won't be back all day. When I do, I'll be sure to post something.

For right now;
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>S_J, will battlemoons be WorldShipLarge? Do you plan to use the inantry pic for your biofanatics?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
-I figure battlemoons would be on the small side of "world" (which goes from moons to gas giants).
-Definately infantry pic.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The download page: We still haven't agreed on a distribution method. I'm worried that if we include a copy in each compliant mod, ppl will end up downloading older Versions and messing up their files, as well as the duplication of data.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>We should have a set of neoshipsizes.txt available for various mods, alongside the imagecopy utility. That way, players can make full use with a tiny download.

Expanded shipsets in a separate Category, maybe two Versions, Full and Only New images.

Andr�s

November 21st, 2001, 07:17 PM

So, after removing the extra worldships, the list looks something like this:

1>Scout - smaller than escort
2>Corvette - between escort and frigate (or rename the frigate corvette and make a new frigate)
3>DestroyerHeavy - between destroyer and light cruiser
4>CruiserHeavy - between cruiser and battlecruiser
5>DreadnoughtHeavy - between dreadnough and baseship
6>Baseship - very big base sized ship
7>BaseshipHeavy - even bigger ship
8>WorldShip - planet sized ship
9>ResourceShip - resource miner ship
10>ResourceStation - resource miner station
11>CarrierTiny - smaller carrier
12>CarrierMassive - bigger carrier
13>Warstation - base between battlestation and starbase
14>ColonyShipLarge
15>TransportTiny - smaller and probably faster transport
16>FighterHuge - bigger fighter
17>FighterMassive - even bigger fighter
18>TroopInfantry - Human sized troop
19>TroopHuge - very big troop
20>StellarManipBarge - big weaponless ship

[This message has been edited by Andr�s Lescano (edited 21 November 2001).]

zen.

November 21st, 2001, 07:20 PM

Hi guys. I'd have to agree with Chewy about the worldships. 3 might be a little overkill (no pun intended).

Out of curiosity...won't AI design files need to be appended/overhauled to include designs for the larger and in-between ships? Do enlighten me...I'm a graphic designer, not a programmer. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

zen

Andr�s

November 21st, 2001, 07:33 PM

This is a general set of pictures that should work with many mods, AI may need to be updated to work with most of the mods (not only because of new ship sizes).
Many sizes (eg in-between)should not be a problem. Default AI uses the same entry in the text files to define all sizes between escort and dreadnought, some custom AI have different desings for the smallest and for the biggest ones.

[This message has been edited by Andr�s Lescano (edited 21 November 2001).]

zen.

November 21st, 2001, 07:43 PM

Ah...so if the race-specific AI wants something that isn't in its race files, it will default to the DefaultAI files? That would definitely make things easier! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon10.gif

zen

Suicide Junkie

November 21st, 2001, 08:43 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Out of curiosity...won't AI design files need to be appended/overhauled to include designs for the larger and in-between ships? Do enlighten me...I'm a graphic designer, not a programmer.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The AI_designcreation.txt specifies a design pattern, and has entries for max and min hull size.

So, any attackship between, say 150KT and 300KT gets design A, while those from 400-600KT get design B.
For example; Design A includes minimal defenses, and cheap to research weapons, while design B adds lots of shields and stealth armor and powerful, expensive weapons.
The AI will typically use the largest hull available in the design range, so if there is an entry for 10,000KT- 60,000KT it will be used to build anything from battlemoons to large death stars.
The designs tend to specify "minimum of x components with this ability", and "Y% of the ship should be components with this ability"
That way, its scalable.

geoschmo

November 22nd, 2001, 12:14 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by zenbudo:
Ah...so if the race-specific AI wants something that isn't in its race files, it will default to the DefaultAI files? That would definitely make things easier! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon10.gif

zen<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Exactly. But the problem with this is that you have one race with all the pictures and 20 other races that use the generic pics for all the new ships. It gets confusing, and doens't look all that nice. That is the reason for neostandard idea in the first place. That and the shipset modders wanting to have mods actually use the pics they worked so hard to create. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Geoschmo

Geoschmo

geoschmo

November 22nd, 2001, 12:17 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Andr�s Lescano:
So, after removing the extra worldships, the list looks something like this:

1>Scout - smaller than escort
2>Corvette - ...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So is this the list and the names we are using? If it is I can get started on the NeoVehicleSize.txt file for the Devnull Mod.

Geo

chewy027

November 22nd, 2001, 12:22 AM

Those are the names i've used for the new pictures i've done for the Vandron. I have about 6 new pics done.

Andr�s

November 22nd, 2001, 01:37 AM

More neo-generic pic.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>So is this the list and the names we are using? If it is I can get started on the NeoVehicleSize.txt file for the Devnull Mod.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There may be changes, but this is how it looks now.
It's newer than the official Version that still has the 3 worldships.
http://www.sandman43.fsnet.co.uk/neostand.htm

Suicide Junkie

November 22nd, 2001, 02:05 AM

Do you know where I can get a copy of RAR that will not quit after a trial period?

If the RAR people do not offer a free Version to unpack files (even if it won't compress them) then its kind of pointless to use for distributing files.

I do have an old DOS Version of RAR, but it can't handle those long filenames.

Andr�s

November 22nd, 2001, 02:34 AM

It would be ok with me (since my mod is the only one that uses the 3) if you want to reduce worldship pictures to only one. Besides it would be hard to actually make 3 different looking ones and most shipsets would use the copies.

Andr�s

November 22nd, 2001, 04:30 AM

I have had Winrar 2.90 beta 2 installed for some time. It shows shareware reminders, but doesn't quit.
I'm uploading the same file as a ZIP.

Another good news.
Michael Puttr� the author of the Eridani shipset hosted in my site, has reappeared (with a new email I didn�t have) and agrees to revise his pictures to see if he can upgrade the Eridani to the neo-standard.
BTW I didn�t ask him this, but now that I think about it that would be a nice looking shipset without a good original AI.

[This message has been edited by Andr�s Lescano (edited 22 November 2001).]

Suicide Junkie

November 22nd, 2001, 05:26 AM

Oops. Silly me.
I was thinking of WinAce, not Rar http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif.
I guess I just forgot to reinstall Rar since my HD got wiped out, and when the "unknown file type" thing showed up I jumped to the wrong memory.

geoschmo

November 22nd, 2001, 05:49 AM

Ok, here's the first draft of the NeoStandard VehicleSize.txt file for Devnull Mod. This is not an official mod file, I just wanted to try it out and see if this is correct. Also could be of use to some of working on shipsets.

One thing, we don't really have to call the StellarManipBarge that. Since the idea is just to be a name for a pic, not everyone is going to use it for Stellar manip components the way Devnull does. Maybe just Barge? Shorter is better. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Geoschmo

chewy027

November 22nd, 2001, 06:45 AM

Agreed go with "barge"

dogscoff

November 22nd, 2001, 10:20 AM

I agree with barge as long as we specify in the descriptuions that it is very big and very slow. Otherwise we'll get all kinds of inconsistent images.

I'll update the site tonight to reflect that change, the new worldship order (ie just one of them), S-J's infantry usage and those shipsets mentioned. There are a few other things I'd like to tidy up as well.

Approx 10 hours until next upload...

Zen: We're adding new images, not new ships. Just becasue we're making these images available doesn't mean that mods have to use them. Mods which already used extra ship sizes will already have had to alter their AI files to accomodate them. We're just making those extra sizes look nice=-)

------------------
SE4 Code:
L GdY $ Fr- C- Sd T!+ Sf-- Tcp-- A% M>M+ MpD! RV Pw Fq+ Nd- Rp+ G-
/SE4 Code
Go to my meagre SEIV pages (http://www.sandman43.fsnet.co.uk/se4main.htm) to generate your own code.

Markavian

November 22nd, 2001, 11:19 AM

I agree that some of the smaller ship sizes aren't as necessary. But, if you're making a mod, you can change values that apply to images, so it doesn't matter.

Quote:
All this talk would be redundant if the vehiclesize.txt allowed you to specify a secondary image (between the first choice and the generic) if the first choice wasn't found.

Oh, cool, someone's talking about this. Last time I was at Shrappy Forums, (many many months ago) I didn't get a reponse on this. I think we should all spam MM about it, since I think its an incredibly important issue, and would save on third party programs (no offense, the work being done will be very useful otherwise (and will work on unpatched game Versions).

Pledge your support today, send MM and e-mail. se4@malfador.com

Ask them:

Hi MM,
In your next Version of the SE4 patch, please include an option where the vehiclesize.txt allowed you to specify a secondary image (between the first choice and the generic) if the first choice wasn't found.

It would be much appreciated my modders everywhere if you did. Both of you.

- John Beech

dogscoff

November 22nd, 2001, 03:06 PM

Today's changes to the website (http://www.sandman43.fsnet.co.uk/neostand.htm): (will be uploaded in around 5-6 hours)

-1 worldship not 3
-Stellar manip barge > Barge
-P&N *does* use the infantry pic
-Forum URLs corrected
-Added quality disclaimer (gif / bmp)
-Added some decorative images to dull texty pages
-A few typos

-File name format (ie RaceName_Portrait_Size.bmp and RaceName_Mini_Size.bmp) added to table.
-Removed "fast" and "recon" references in descriptions
-carrier pics
-Slight alteration to explanation text.
-Michael Puttr�'s Eridani shipset added to shipset list, with link to Kuat.
-John Beech mentioned in Shipset list. John, which URL should I link to? Which shipsets will you upgrade?
-A few small Viking updates.

Anything else?

While I'm talking about the website, I have something to say:

I do not consider this to be the "official" home page of the Neo-Standard. At the moment, it's just a place to collect and present our work so far in a structured and easy to read manner.
I know my webspace isn't particularly glossy, and I for one would be happy to see the neo-standard at home in a more polished setting. I've had a few people from this thread with proven web-design skills offer to help me out with this, so I am quite willing to hand the site over to someone else.
If someone agrees to take it off me though, I'll take my neo-standard pages down and the new site will have to be hosted at a new URL. 2 Reasons: (a) I don't have enough webspace for decent graphics, and (b) I'm not reliable enough to maintain the site at anyone's pace but my own.

So... the offer's there. I'll be happy to surrender the html to anyone who wants it, or if no-one wants it, I'll be happy to continue as we are now. Either way, I'm happy enough http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

------------------
SE4 Code:
L GdY $ Fr- C- Sd T!+ Sf-- Tcp-- A% M>M+ MpD! RV Pw Fq+ Nd- Rp+ G-
/SE4 Code
Go to my meagre SEIV pages (http://www.sandman43.fsnet.co.uk/se4main.htm) to generate your own code.

disabled

November 22nd, 2001, 08:54 PM

I must commend you all on your efforts here.

I look forward to this being done. Once it's ready, I'll create an optional Ultimate Mod patch for it. I hope to see some of my ships show up in there as well!

I hope I don't make too much work for you guys, however, as I plan to add more ship sizes to my mod over time!

I look forward to this. I don't have many comments on it yet, but I'm eagerly awaiting it.

------------------
HADRIAN T. AVENTINE
admin@spaceempires.org
Administrator | SpaceEmpires.org (http://www.spaceempires.org)

ZeroAdunn

November 22nd, 2001, 11:05 PM

Any chance of there being a download of this soon?

Suicide Junkie

November 23rd, 2001, 01:04 AM

CarrierTiny should have a secondary image of the carrierlight.

The webpage looks pretty nice.

As for compliant mods, you should probably include the first compliant Version number.
(P&N would be v2.5)
Also, the link for P&N should be the "A pirate's life for me" thread.
(http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/Forum23/HTML/001696.html)

ZeroAdunn

November 23rd, 2001, 02:00 AM

Don't forget about my mod, now compliant, you can download the beta of Version 2 at nwfish.8k.com

Andr�s

November 23rd, 2001, 02:55 AM

Good to have you onboard John.
You mean that if we send enough emails to MM we may be heard and this feature will be added in next patch. Cool I�m sending mine.
Even if we get this new feature, that would save a lot of hard drive space, the neo-standard would still be necessary as an agreement between modders and shipset-artists of what are the most important pictures and what should be their names.

I agree with barge, and I�m posting here the updated list since Last one made it to the 2nd page again. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Scout - Smaller than an escort.
Corvette - Between Escort and Frigate.
DestroyerHeavy - Between destroyer and light cruiser.
CruiserHeavy - Between cruiser and battlecruiser.
DreadnoughtHeavy - Between Dreadnought and Baseship.
BaseShip - Very big base sized ship (Standard hull without standard image)
BaseShipHeavy - A larger Version of the baseship.
WorldShip - A gigantic ship which resembles a moon or planet.
ResourceShip - A ship designed with resource production in mind.
ResourceStation - A ship designed with resource production in mind.
CarrierTiny - Smaller than the light carrier
CarrierMassive - Bigger than the large carrier
WarStation - A base between BattleStation and StarBase
ColonyShipLarge - A Bigger Colony Ship
TransportTiny - Smaller than TransportSmall, and probably faster.
FighterHuge - Bigger than FighterLarge.
FighterMassive - Bigger than FighterHuge. Possibly a bomber.
TroopInfantry - Good old fashioned foot soldier (or tentacle soldier, wing soldier...)
TroopHuge - Like TroopLarge, but bigger.
Barge - A very big and slow ship, probably not designed for combat.

Andr�s

November 23rd, 2001, 04:02 AM

These pictures don't look as good as the others but I'm running out of source images and these sizes should look somehow different.

Andr�s

November 23rd, 2001, 04:29 AM

Wich of my shipsets should I upgrade to the neo-standard first?

Val

November 24th, 2001, 07:00 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr>- i can see having one more size of fighters but i think the massive fighter would be the same as the scout so either nix the scout or nix the massive fighter <hr></blockquote>

On top of the visual differences (as mentioned by dogscoff), there is also the point that fighters would still be restricted to intra-system and are able to be carried by other ships, whereas a "Scout" would not be so restricted.

I can't wait to see some of the new shipsets http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Andr�s

November 25th, 2001, 05:39 PM

I just want to let you know I have almost finished all neo pictures for the Yuuzhan Vong shipset.
Also the generic shipset is almost finished. So the most important part missing would be the copying program.
suicide_junkie are you working on the program?

chewy027

November 26th, 2001, 05:17 PM

Andres you didn't include a huge transport in the latest list, is this a mistake or has that been nixed ?

Andr�s

November 26th, 2001, 05:51 PM

That's right, there's no huge or massive transport. It's not that I forgot when I made Last list, but it has never been in the list. So far AFAIK no mod includes any of those sizes. I would be a good addition to the list though.

I just finished all extra sizes for the Yuuzhan Vong! (Unless more sizes such as a huge transport are added)
http://se4kdy.cyberwars.com/races/sw-yv

Val

November 26th, 2001, 07:00 PM

Nice job on the shipset. I particularly liked the resource ship http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

dogscoff

November 27th, 2001, 01:40 PM

Good work on the Y-V shipset, it looks good. I'll update the website to include them. Any preference as to which image you want to represent them on the neo-standard site? I was thinking of using the infantry pic, but if your favourite is one of the other pics I'll use that.

Same question to any other shipsets linked to from the neo-standard site. If I don't hear differently I'll just pick my favourite image=-)

Speaking of the website... You'll all notice it has been given a nice glossy new look, courtesy of top design geezer Mr John Beech {applause}. I may also be giving the rest of my webspace something of an overhaul soon, so keep checking back.

Anyone who links to my site (is there anyone?) - would a banner be useful? I'm thinking of making one for the Shrapnel banner exchange. I have also noticed a lot of SEIV sites seem to trade small buttons rather than banners. Is there a standard size or anything I should consider when designing one?

Personally I don't see a need for a massive transport - we have a fourth size at the bottom (tiny), so moddders could simply shift all the images up a class if they wanted to make room for another transport at the top. If they really really needed a fifth transport with a distinct image, there's always the barge picture.

If there's demand though, we'll just add a pic to the standard.

Another long post. Sorry. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Andr�s

November 27th, 2001, 03:52 PM

Use any picture you want. I made all pictures from scratch except for the race portrait and infantry, so I’d prefer if you use any of the others. Val particularly liked the resource ship.

IMHO we shouldn’t add a massive transport unless modders demand it.

dogscoff

November 27th, 2001, 05:09 PM

A link to the old (pre shrapnel Boards overhaul) thread, for those who want to see the downloads:Old thread (http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/Forum23/HTML/004185.html).

Val

November 27th, 2001, 05:57 PM

I think (as previously mentioned by dogscoff) the barge picture could easily be used by a mod that had need of a Huge Transport (depending on the looks of the shipset - but considering the barge description it should look like a huge ponderous transport) or the Large Transport can do double duty as the Huge Transport.

chewy027

November 27th, 2001, 05:58 PM

well i just finished all the neo-standard images for the Vandron. But since i can't upload them here i guess they'll just have to wait. Oh, and when i asked about the massive transport i didn't mean to suggest adding it as a new class, I just thought it was already in the neo-standard specs and andres forgot to include it in the list. I agree that we don't need it. Of course I think some of the other classes are unneccessary also, but thats just my opinion. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

dogscoff

November 27th, 2001, 11:35 PM

Chewy: Cool, where are the Vandron hosted? I'll add them to the compatible shipset list (http://www.sandman43.fsnet.co.uk/neostandlist.htm#Shipsets). Take a look at the page and give me the details I'll need to fill in the table.

Andr�s

November 28th, 2001, 01:35 AM

There's a copy of the Vandrom in USy, you can send them to John Beech so he updates them.
Or you can create your own page. Or you can send them to me or to dogscoff.
If you can't host them here for the time being let's try to put them Online somewhere else.

chewy027

November 28th, 2001, 09:14 AM

sounds good i'll send them ASAP

dogscoff

November 28th, 2001, 05:23 PM

Just had a look at the (pre-updates) Vandron on USy - cool shipset. I especially like the mine group and the space station.

Where have you sent your new files? USy? Which single pic would you like to represent the Vandron when I link from the neo-standard page?

chewy027

November 28th, 2001, 09:27 PM

well i haven't actually sent them yet as i have just noticed that i didn't da a resource station so i will make that then send it. As for the representation pic use whichever one you think looks the coolest i kinda like the worldship pic though it doesn't represent the rest of the shipset that well.

chewy027

November 30th, 2001, 02:46 AM

ok dogscoff i sent them along hopefully you got them... So what do you think?

dogscoff

November 30th, 2001, 10:59 AM

Got them, like them. You're right, the worldship is cool=-)

Phoenix-D

November 30th, 2001, 07:16 PM

I'll work on making TechMod compatable with this, if someone will give me a summary of what I need to do http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Phoenix-D

chewy027

November 30th, 2001, 09:26 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Andr�s Lescano:
Scout - Smaller than an escort.
Corvette - Between Escort and Frigate.
DestroyerHeavy - Between destroyer and light cruiser.
CruiserHeavy - Between cruiser and battlecruiser.
DreadnoughtHeavy - Between Dreadnought and Baseship.
BaseShip - Very big base sized ship (Standard hull without standard image)
BaseShipHeavy - A larger Version of the baseship.
WorldShip - A gigantic ship which resembles a moon or planet.
ResourceShip - A ship designed with resource production in mind.
ResourceStation - A ship designed with resource production in mind.
CarrierTiny - Smaller than the light carrier
CarrierMassive - Bigger than the large carrier
WarStation - A base between BattleStation and StarBase
ColonyShipLarge - A Bigger Colony Ship
TransportTiny - Smaller than TransportSmall, and probably faster.
FighterHuge - Bigger than FighterLarge.
FighterMassive - Bigger than FighterHuge. Possibly a bomber.
TroopInfantry - Good old fashioned foot soldier (or tentacle soldier, wing soldier...)
TroopHuge - Like TroopLarge, but bigger.
Barge - A very big and slow ship, probably not designed for combat.[/QB]<hr></blockquote>

Phoenix here are the Neo classes. I guess you'll just have to add some levels to ship construction and base construction. as well as any other prerequisites you think would be necessary

disabled

December 1st, 2001, 02:52 AM

Argh! I just noticed something!

In the UM I made, the Converted Carrier is a carrier built from a small transport. Like the Babyflat-tops from the Second World War Two.

ARgh!

Sorry to toss a wrench into your equations.

dogscoff

December 2nd, 2001, 10:19 PM

WOAH! Chewy, I think you are missing an important point here. If a mod wants to comply with the neo-standard, it doesn't *have* to use all the images if it doesn't want to. That would mean all mods having the same set of hulls, which would defeat the whole object of modding (variety.)

The point of the neo-standard is to make some extra images available to modders. They are free to use some or all of them as they feel appropriate.

Phoenix: here's a quote from the explanation page of the neostandard site:
<blockquote>quote:<hr>
We welcome input and co-operation from any modders and shipset creators. This standard can only
be only as good as the mods and shipsets that participate. Taking part is easy:

If you are creating or maintaining a mod,
take a look at your vehiclesize.txt file. Are there any non-standard hull sizes in there that could be represented by the images described in the table on the main page?

If so, make the appropriate changes to that file and save it to neovehiclesize.txt in your mod's main directory. Leave your original vehiclesize.txt as it is.
<hr></blockquote>
Please keep us updated=-)

Hadrian: D'oh! That's the tiny carrier, right? Never mind, I'm sure the extra image will come in handy anyway. I'll have to change the tables to reflect the fact that it isn't currently used by your mod.

Everyone else: I'll try to update the html and upload the pages tomorrow evening: I'll be hosting and linking to the Vandron, updating the tables to include the tech mod, and I'm sure I'll find other changes to make as well=-)

chewy027

December 3rd, 2001, 03:24 AM

Sorry if I came acroos that way. I only ment to give him the specs for the neo classes. I thought he wanted to add new techs for the neo classes which is why i said what i did. No problem http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

disabled

December 3rd, 2001, 03:53 AM

Actually, it just occured to me you could combine the existing ships in a weird form of kitbashing.

For example, the Converted Carrier is nothing more than a transport with a flight deck on it.

geoschmo

December 3rd, 2001, 08:48 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Version 1.55:
3. Changed - Changed the VehicleSize.txt file so that each vehicle
size has a primary and alternate bitmap. <hr></blockquote>

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

dogscoff

December 4th, 2001, 11:15 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr>
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
<hr></blockquote>

I know, this is great. Do you think we could get the neo-generic images included on the Gold CD? Our work then would be done...

dogscoff

December 4th, 2001, 03:07 PM

Yeah, I know. The neo generic images (http://www.sandman43.fsnet.co.uk/neostandgeneric.htm) are nearly done. (Andres has finished all his, I've hardly started mine- no time=-(

If they could be included into the CD's generic generic directory, then nothing else would have to be done.

In fact, with the new "secondary image" function, generic images aren't even needed at all. Mods can just default to another image within the race's shipset if the first choice isn't available. As long as modders are careful to always default to a (old)standard image, there will never be any need to fall back on the generics.

That said, it would be nice to get the generics in there anyway, just in case.

It's still worth having compiled the neo-list too, because shipset creators and modders can still use it for greater cross-compatibility.

I can probably take the neo-standard website down though.

disabled

December 4th, 2001, 05:42 PM

Not everyone will be able to upgrade to the SE4 Gold or will want to.

dogscoff

December 4th, 2001, 05:45 PM

Ooooh... that's true. Hadn't thought of that.

Well, I guess we'll have to carry on as planned then.

Suicide Junkie

December 4th, 2001, 07:20 PM

There is also the advantage of having multiple secondary choices.
In the basic Gold, you'd have to use the basic shipset, if your first choice fails.
With this you can try a whole series of names before falling back on the basics, and, as was said before, we could require only one image to build up shipset.

disabled

December 5th, 2001, 02:46 AM

You know, if this can be finished before the SE4 Gold CD is burned, then it can be added directly into SE4.

Suicide Junkie

January 20th, 2002, 11:36 PM

/SJ Chants incantations
"Arise, I command thee!"
*Rumble*
/Blinks
/Turns and Runs away
Braiiins

This thread has been resurrected for the good of the community!
We agreed that this was still important, and we've had a nice holiday break, so here we go!

For starters, how about listing everything we've got so far?

PS: Do we have a complete list of filenames somewhere? If so, I can start on the shipset-filler program.

Andr�s

January 21st, 2002, 05:38 AM

The list is the same one that Chewy reposted below. It's also in Dogscoff's site.

zen.

January 21st, 2002, 06:28 PM

::Edited::
Thanks for the corrections, Andres. How's this? 50 classes:

Scout
Escort
Corvette
Frigate
Destroyer
DestroyerHeavy
LightCruiser
Cruiser
CruiserHeavy
Battlecruiser
Battleship
Dreadnought
DreadnoughtHeavy
BaseShip
BaseShipHeavy
WorldShip
CarrierTiny
CarrierLight
Carrier
CarrierHeavy
CarrierMassive
SpaceStation
BattleStation
WarStation
StarBase
ResourceShip
ResourceStation
ColonyShip
ColonyShipLarge
TransportTiny
TransportSmall
TransportMedium
TransportLarge
Barge
FighterSmall
FighterMedium
FighterLarge
FighterHuge
FighterMassive
TroopInfantry
TroopSmall
TroopMedium
TroopLarge
TroopHuge
Satellite
Mine
Drone
WeapPlatformSmall
WeapPlatformMedium
WeapPlatformLarge

[ 21 January 2002: Message edited by: zenbudo ]

Andr�s

January 21st, 2002, 08:28 PM

Zenbudo, standard Light Cruiser picture name is “lightcruiser” not “cruiserlight” and we had agreed that there was no point in renaming it to match format of the others.
You also missed the standard (medium) “carrier”, and of course satellite, mine, drone (which I can’t wait to use in gold), and weapon platforms, so you have a total of 50 sizes.

suicide_junkie, take a look at the list in dogscoff’s site, there are a few other secondary images suggested there.

Val

January 21st, 2002, 08:32 PM

SJ:

Also, I think the B5 mod has all the correct refs to the various ships in it, we actually included 4 vehicle text files (2 of each shipset - standard and non - in QN move and normal SE IV move)

Suicide Junkie

January 21st, 2002, 10:43 PM

I need not just secondary images, but a whole chain of alternatives, until we reach "race portrait" as the absolute minimum requirement from which to build up a compliant shipset.
(if no alternates are available, it will look like infantry in space.)

Only the Barge and resource vehicles are not obvious as to which priority the various alternates have.

geoschmo

January 21st, 2002, 11:06 PM

I am confused as to why you need this SJ. If a shipset does not have either a primary or secondary shipset it should use the generic pic for that ship class, correct? As far as an absolute minimum of images needs for a shipset in SEIV, all it needs are the main, pop_mini, pop_portrait, race_protrait, battlecruiser, and battle cruiser_mini. (The two BC pics are just so you don't get an error while setting up the empire)

Anything else that is missing and the game will pull the needed file from the generic pics, if it can't find a primary or alternate in the pictures/races/empirex directory.

The only thing that would cause a problem beyond this is if the generic pics didn't have all the neo class pics. Then you would have images missing in the game. It might generate errors too, not sure about that one.

Geoschmo

geoschmo

January 21st, 2002, 11:08 PM

OK, I forgot for a moment that the secondary image was added with Gold, so most of you don't have that yet. But even then, you don't need a list of alternates. If it can't find the primary, it will use the generic shippic.

Geoschmo

Suicide Junkie

January 22nd, 2002, 02:45 AM

I must be going blind. I looked at that page before, but didn't recognize it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif .

Now, the warships are pretty obvious as to which is the secondary image. (Destroyer Heavy <- Destroyer)
The fancier images I'm not sure about, though; what chain should I use for the SM barge?
I'm thinking: Barge ->, colonyship large, resourceship, baseship, dreadnaught, ..., escort.

The other thing is the one end-of-the-line default image.
If there are no ship images, we should at least require a racial picture, (which is the secondary choice for infantry), and I could build up a shipset of that.

Suicide Junkie

January 22nd, 2002, 05:57 AM

So, do you still want the program to fill-out a shipset with similar images, or not?

The point was to make all the ships in a set look like they belong together, rather than having a few silvery defaults popping up in a Xiati shipset, it will, at worst, make every ship/base image look like the battlecruiser, and every unit look like the population...

The defaults are required in case the shipset designer and user both decide not to fill out all the images...

geoschmo

January 22nd, 2002, 06:11 AM

DOH! I forgot about that. I guess It's been too long since I was a regular in this thread. Sorry.

Geo

Andr�s

January 22nd, 2002, 07:14 AM

Yes we do need the program. And we also need to finish the couple of pictures still missing in the neo-neutral shipset, if dogscoff didn't make any progress I'll give it a try.

Val

January 22nd, 2002, 04:00 PM

Isn't SE IV G going to have a full neo shipset for the neutrals that we could use? Anybody know if any of the Gold races are going to take advantage of the expanded shipsets?

geoschmo

January 22nd, 2002, 04:27 PM

The only change that made it into Gold was the addition of the secondary ship pic in the vehiclesize.txt file. For the stock hulls the default secondary pics are identical to the primary pics.

No neo-generic images made it in as far as I am aware. Nothing was mentioned in the history file anyway. I don't have the gold beta with me to check and see if the images were added without being mentioned.

Who was making the new generic images? Were they sent to Tamp Gamer to be included in the Gold release?

Geoschmo

Suicide Junkie

January 22nd, 2002, 04:28 PM

Val: does the Gold demo include them? If not, I'll check what I have at home.
They might also be included in the CD as an addon, but not a default...

So, what IYO, is the best chain to use for the barge and resource ship?
I assume the resource base should start with Starbase through spacestation, then down through the ship sizes. But, should it try the worldship, and if so, when (before other "ships", after trying baseship and dreadnaught, never?)

Val

January 22nd, 2002, 05:35 PM

SJ:

I haven't seen anything yet, but thought their might be a chance they might release the 'extended' ship sets with Gold. Then again, maybe not...

Here's what I had for the B5 Mod:

Scout = Escort
Corvette = Frigate
Heavy Destroyer = Destroyer
Heavy Cruiser = Battlecruiser
Super Dreadnought = Dreadnought
Heavy Baseship = Baseship
Planet Killer = Starbase
Barge = Transport Large
Escort Carrier = Carrier Light
Super Carrier = Carrier Heavy
Resource Ship = Colony Ship
Resource (Civilian) Station = Space Station
War Station = Battle Station
Large Colony Ship = Colony Ship
Fast Courier = Transport Small
Super Heavy Fighter = Fighter Large
Massive Fighter = Fighter Large

I know the left column names aren't all standard neo names, just what I happened to use, though the pic ref in the neo-standard is direct (so a super heavy figher is a huge fighter)

Suicide Junkie

January 22nd, 2002, 10:14 PM

The point is not that you call your ships those names, but that images with those filenames are available for use by modders.

The point is that you can have a "Super Heavy Fighter", and know that FighterHuge.BMP will exist for you to use.

Val

January 23rd, 2002, 02:12 AM

Right, I was just mentioning that I had diverged from the path on those names in the neostandard (such as planet killer) but still used the neostandard bitmap names (in that case the worldship). But in case there was no Worldship pic, I had it go to a spacestation pic.

Andr�s

January 23rd, 2002, 08:11 PM

I don't thin that any these extra ship sizes will be included in Gold Version.

It's intended to be used by many other mods and shipsets, yada yada yada, but it's nothing more than another mod.
A mod that wasn't ever submitted because it's even now unfinished.
I don't think it will ever be included as a standard part of the game.
The new secondary pic feature that we requested and will appear in gold is a good help, and will eliminate the need of the copying program in most ocasions. It will allow modders to take advantage of shipsets with extra pictures without worrying if all shipsets have all pictures.
The copying program will still be needed to, establish chains.
AFAIK you will only be able to put one second option, not 3, 4 or 5 options (like wepons in a design) in order of priority.
For example the picture for a heavy baseship is "baseshipheavy" secondary image "baseship" and third option "starbase"
Someone also mentioned that some people will never get Gold verion.

dogscoff

January 24th, 2002, 02:40 AM

S_J - personally I would use Large Transport as a secondary barge pic.

I have been horribly horribly busy for the Last 10 weeks or so (this is the first time I've even checked the forum in ages) so I've had no time to finish the neo-generic images which were allocated to me (Andres finished his in about 3 days=-) or anything.

Everything was so confused before Christmas, rushing to get Vikings Gold ready, that I have no idea what state the neo-standard website is in. Pretty shoddy, I imagine, since there was new data for it almost daily and I could barely keep up with the updates, and then there was the whole style changeover thing...

This weekend, however, I plan to spend 2 days giving my entire website a badly needed overhaul and get the Last non-gold Version of the vikings up for download.

I will assess the state of the neo-generic images and try to do any work which may be necessary, then upload everything.

If anyone has spotted anything on the website that needs doing, please let me know.

Suicide Junkie

January 24th, 2002, 05:28 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr>The copying program will still be needed to, establish chains.
AFAIK you will only be able to put one second option, not 3, 4 or 5 options (like wepons in a design) in order of priority.
For example the picture for a heavy baseship is "baseshipheavy" secondary image "baseship" and third option "starbase"
Someone also mentioned that some people will never get Gold verion.<hr></blockquote>Right.
And I still need you guys' opinion on what the chain for resource ship & SM barge should be!

dogscoff

January 26th, 2002, 10:38 AM

IMHO...

barge > large transport

resource ship> medium transport

resource station > space station

Suicide Junkie

January 26th, 2002, 05:01 PM

Yes, but what comes after that? The chain has to end at either "Cruiser" or "Race picture", since those are the only two absolutely required images, no matter what the mod.

Eg:
barge > large transport > colonyshiplarge > medium transport > dreadnaught > battleship > battlecruiser > cruiser.

dogscoff

January 27th, 2002, 10:59 AM

Well, your barge chain makes sense to me, although I think maybe you should have baseships and monitors in there somewhere.

For mining ship, I would go mining ship > mining station > medium transport > small transport > destroyer > leight cruiser > cruiser.

mining station > mining ships > space station > cruiser.

Suicide Junkie

February 10th, 2002, 07:59 PM

WooHoo!
The Neobuilder.exe (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1013363707.exe) is now ready to try out!

Feel free to comment on the alternate chains, found HERE (http://imagemodserver.mine.nu\tempstuff\neoalternates.txt ).
Not shown are hulls from Scout to Heavy Dreadnaught. Those have a pattern alternate of try one step smaller, try one step bigger, try next smaller, etc.

Note: some of the constants I used are not obvious. Refer to the legend below.
??H = heavy Version of obvious hull
??G = unit group
T# = Transport (1= tiny, 2=small, etc)
C# = Carrier
TR# = troop
F# = fighter
FF = Fighter Group (conflicts with frigate)
BM = Worldship (conflicts with War Station)
CS = colony ship
MN = Mine
DR = Drone

[ 10 February 2002: Message edited by: suicide_junkie ]

disabled

February 10th, 2002, 09:13 PM

I wonder what has become of this project. I'm very much interested in it for the UM2. I mean, the new racial techs and such plus having well over 500 different ship, bases, sats, and so on in 96 sizes for the 13 trees...

Phoenix-D

February 10th, 2002, 09:28 PM

I'll be making TechMod compatable with this once I get Gold and start it up again. Right now I'm planning everything out.. Last time was I just threw things in as they occured http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

As to "what has become of this", I think at this point it's up to the mod authors.

Phoenix-D

Andr�s

February 11th, 2002, 01:45 AM

Maybe it's because it looks for default english se4 path name and can't find it, but it always seems to start in the root directory of my hard drive. No matter whare the builder is located. And I have to browse all the way to the races.

In most cases 1st choice for troopinfantry should be race_portrait/pop_portrait.

Your minimun requirements look too high.
I think you only need the portrait battlecruiser to choose in the add new race window. You'd need at least 1 mini to copy, but not necesarily the battlecruiser. Maybe if battlecruiser is not abailable the program should attempt to copy another pic there too.
BigExplosion and Shields are not indispensable either, there are a number of races that are considered complete and do not include custom shield or explosion, and by the way generic pics tend to match different shipsets better than ships here.

What about the idea of an easily editable .txt file defining ship sizes and copy chains.

This is probably beyond your programming capabilities, but maybe you can find some pre-made library to resample bitmaps (note the difference between resample and just resize). You could make it copy and resample race portrait to create pop pictures.

Suicide Junkie

February 13th, 2002, 03:24 AM

I didn't do any sort of path initializing, so C:\ is the default.

I set the minimum requirements as they were because all of those images either:
A) cannot be created/copied from elsewhere (eg. bigexplosion)
or
B) Are required by SE4.

Re: infantry.
Oops. Copy/paste error. I got into a routine, and forgot about that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif .

<blockquote>quote:<hr>there are a number of races that are considered complete and do not include custom shield or explosion<hr></blockquote>True. I can easily remove those from the requirements.
On the other hand, Battlecruiser is used along with the race portrait when choosing your shipset during race creation.

Minimum requirements are now:
- pop images
- battlecruiser images
- main.bmp

<blockquote>quote:<hr>What about the idea of an easily editable .txt file defining ship sizes and copy chains.<hr></blockquote>Not a problem, I'll include that in my next Version.
I just hardcoded the whole thing to get it done quickly, but I kept it in a nice format for using a text file for definitions.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>This is probably beyond your programming capabilities, but maybe you can find some pre-made library to resample bitmaps (note the difference between resample and just resize). You could make it copy and resample race portrait to create pop pictures.<hr></blockquote>You're right. I'm not going to build that Tinman. The axe already has enough bells and whistles http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
Resampling images would be way too easy for the shipset's original creator to do, and thus not worth my time to automate.

Andr�s

February 13th, 2002, 06:37 AM

I just made a quick test.
Pics that are required by SE4 "add new race" window are:
racename_main
racename_race_portrait
racename_portrait_battlecruiser

"_portrait_battlecruiser"
Is used even if you make a mod where no ship size uses the battlecruiser picture.

IMHO really minimun requirements to create a shipset are:
_main and _race_portrait
Since they are both, indispensable and cannot be copied from anywhere else
and
_anyship_portrait, and _anyship_mini
It does not have to be necessarily the battle cruiser. Portrait and mini don't even need to be of the same ship. It will eventually be copied to all sizes including battlecruiser if necessary.

For example I have this unfinished shipset that so far only has main, race_portrait, pop pics, escort, frigate, destroyer, light cruiser and colony ship. I'd like the program to be able to make all copies and complete the shipset even if most ships will be copies of the light cruiser in the end. By copying the cruiserlight into the battlecruiser the program will actually be CORRECTING the error. If it doesn't have anything to copy to for example to troops ignore them but make all other copies anyway.

I'd just ignore other pics that cannot be copied from anywhere else.
Pop pics seem to be the only ones that if lacking are not replaced by the default shipset. I'd make copies of the race portrait even if you cannot resample them. It saves one step to the creator, if planning to resample them by giving the pics the right name and if not edited viewing the lower left corner of the race portrait is better than a white square.

BTW I hope you know that this is only constructive criticism, and that I do appreciate all your hard work. The NeoBuilder as it is now is already a very useful tool.

I don't want that Tinman, but I want a swiss-army-knife-like axe http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Suicide Junkie

February 20th, 2002, 05:11 AM

Ok, I've uploaded a slightly less stubborn Version of neobuilder.exe (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1014173965.exe). This one will allow you to generate the shipset without having a main, shields, or bigexplosion, though it will spew warnings in the status window http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

The next things I'll do are:
- Allow user to override the battleship image requirement, if they acknowlede that the shipset may end up incomplete/unplayable.
- read mod preferences for alternates from file.
- Add an option to search/copy portraits and minis individually if there are partial images found. Sub-options are for mini chooses portrait, portrait chooses mini, and independant search.

Suicide Junkie

February 24th, 2002, 07:56 PM

A new Version of the Neobuilder (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1014573080.zip)

It comes zipped with an example alternate definitions file.
Also, Battlecruiser is not required in order to attempt the image generation.

Minis and portraits are still treated as a unit in this Version.

dogscoff

March 28th, 2002, 04:41 PM

Hey S_J, I'm updating the neo-standard site. Can I offer the neo-builder for download from there? You'll get full credit of course.

Any text or anything you'd like me to put in the html with it?

BTW, you introduced me to 8Bit & Schlock... now I want to repay the favour. Are you familiar with www.redmeat.com? (http://www.redmeat.com?) I think you'll appreciate the humour...

Suicide Junkie

March 29th, 2002, 02:07 AM

Feel free to host the Neobuilder. The title bar in the program mentions my name, so you don't have to go overboard http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I got distracted, or I would have replied earlier (and gotten more done at work), but I've gotten through the redmeat archive already http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif . Lots of good stuff, bordering on "sicko" at some points. Didn't stop me from eating lunch though http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

TerranC

September 2nd, 2002, 04:55 PM

Sorry to drag this out of the grave, but with new mods using new images, I think this should be revised once again

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Fyron

September 2nd, 2002, 08:27 PM

The new mod I'm working on uses the format for the neostandard. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

dogscoff

September 3rd, 2002, 09:54 AM

*Dogscoff enters the thread and coughs as a cloud of dust envelops him.

Wow, this is an old thread...

Umm, yeah. The neostandard is a victim of its own success really. It's become so much a standard that it hardly needs explaining any more.

Anyway, you're right. The out of date state of the webpage is shameful, and it is especially so given the hard work which race designers have put in to make their shipsets neostandard compatible.

I have some time off work coming up, (16th-20th Sep) and I'm hoping to put some hours into my various unfinished projects, including updating the neo-standard pages.

dogscoff

September 3rd, 2002, 09:56 AM

Or did you mean to add new hull sizes to the neostandard? What do you think is needed?

dogscoff

January 13th, 2003, 06:31 PM

ok, time to resurrect this thread once again. This kind of follows on from what was discussed in September (see previous Posts).

With the neo-expansion pack and everything I've picked the much-neglected neo-standard back up of late. To this end I've been looking at various mods and shipsets recently, and I've noticed quite a few new ship sizes coming out.

I wouldn't ordinarily mention it, except that there are shipsets supporting them. Therefore, I think it might be time to expand the neostandard, or at the very least make everyone aware of these new sizes so that modders have the chance to cross-pollinate and shipset makers can see what new-fangled images mods are asking for these days.

Here we go...

OK, just to remind you, here are Malfador's standard images:
escort
frigate
destroyer
light cruiser
cruiser
battlecruiser
battleship
dreadnought
fleet
light carrier
carrier
heavy carrier
colony ship
small transport
medium transport
large transport
space station
battlestation
satellite
sat group
mine
minegroup
small fighter
fighter
large fighter
fighter group
drone
small troop
medium troop
large troop
weapon platform small
weapon patform medium
weapon platform large
race & pop pics

And here are the 20 neo-standard images:
scout
corvette
heavy destroyer
heavy cruiser
heavy dreadnought
baseship
heavy baseship
tiny carrier
massive carrier
colony huge
tiny transport
barge
resource ship
resource station
warstation
starbase
huge fighter
massive fighter
troopinfantry
huge troop

Now, Proportions mod adds 3 new sizes as well, and I know of at least 2 shipsets which support them.
Starliner
Large Starliner
Elite Infantry

Fyron's new mod asks for the following sizes, and I know there are images being produced to fit:
cutter
frigatelight
frigateheavy
destroyerlight
transporthuge
cargo station
spacefortress
viralspore
satellitesmall
satellitemedium
satellitelarge
minesmall
minemedium
minelarge
fighterorbital
fighterattack
fighterinterceptor
fighterheavyinterceptor
fighterbomber
fighterheavybomber
weapplatformhuge

I think some of the new fighter sizes might be redundant, and only 2 new satellite sizes would be necessary in a shipset, since the third can be allowed to default back to the good old-fashioned "satellite" image.

In addition, I have noticed a few shipsets packing additional images that I can't find mod references for. I'd be grateful if anyone could tell me what (if any) mods these relate to:
attackcruiser (I just rename it to heavy cruiser)
largesatellite
smallsatellite (Same as satellitesmall, but named differently)
Gunboat
Special carrier
deep station

Does anyone think the neo-standard should be expanded to include the image names above? Should I just be adding them in automatically? Wherefore cheese?

Also, if you have a shipset which supports more than the standard malfador ships and you're not listed here (http://www.sandman43.fsnet.co.uk/neostandlist.htm) - even if it's just one or two images - please let me know and I'll add you to the list.

BTW, I am planning to include almost all of the images listed in my new KanesS set - it will have over 70 images =D

Suicide Junkie

January 13th, 2003, 07:20 PM

The starliners, it seems to me, fall under the more general Category of "civilian ship"

Perhaps "civilianship", "civiliantransport"?
troopheavyinfantry could be good as well.

It seems to me we have plenty of standard hull sizes already (16)
The items that stand out for me on Fyron's list are:
Transporthuge
cargo station (civilianstation, perhaps?)
The sat and mine sizes, leaving out the satmedium, as you suggested.
fighterbomber
weapplatformhuge

PS: I believe you missed the worldship in your list.

Ed Kolis

January 13th, 2003, 07:55 PM

Here are more ideas for ship sizes, borrowed from MOO2/3, Stars!, my imagination, and other sources (sorry if some have been suggested before):

REGULAR SHIPS
lancer
cutter
scout
heavy cruiser
dread cruiser (serious, they were going to use this in MOO3 but changed their mind!)
superdreadnought
titan
behemoth
colossus
leviathan
nubian

SPECIAL PURPOSE SHIPS (don't bother including them in any standard, but they might be cool in a mod)
privateer (built in cargo space)
rogue (see privateer)
galleon (see privateer)
mini colony ship
midget/mini/(regular)/maxi/ultra miner (how about giving these mining ships a special robominer mount that reduces its size by 50%?)
fuel transport (built in supply storage and solar supply generation)
super fuel transport
mini/super mine layer (for special racial traits like "Space Demolition" - special mount reducing minelayer component size)

BASESHIPS
doom star
death star
death egg (OK, maybe if you are doing a Dr. Robotnik shipset with eggmobiles as fighters http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif )

STARBASES
orbital fort
space dock (built in SYD ability?)
star fortress
ultra station

dogscoff

January 13th, 2003, 09:49 PM

PS: I believe you missed the worldship in your list.
* dogscoff smacksforehead.

Ed, we have a number of those things in the neostandard already: FOr example, death stars could (and do) use the worldship image. THe heavy cruiser is in, and so is the superdreadnought (heavy dreadnought).

But yeah, some good ideas. Basically it depends on what the modders will use.

Andr�s

January 14th, 2003, 03:24 PM

We should try to make the standard work for the most popular mods and add more ships to it as the mods require.
But if the standard gets too long artists will never get to make all pic sizes, 70 sounds like too much.

We should try to unify image names a little as we did for the original 20 names.

Let's forget about their names, we don't want to force modders to use the name of the picture in all mods, but just as a standard name for the pictures.

Normal ships:
8 from the stock game pics + 5 from current NS = 13
Fyron seems to need more than these total 13, 4 more to get a total of 17 or can we unify some pic names?

Baseships:
The "Baseship" pic has achieved in Gold the status of optional stock file + only 1 more from NS = 2

Carriers:
3 stock + 2 NS = 5

Colony ships:
1 stock + 1 NS = 2

Transports:
3 stock + 1 NS = 4
Adding a 5th one wouldn't be too bad

Bases
3 stock + 1 NS = 4
BTW The Starbase is a stock pic, not neo-standard.

I don't know if the ones Fyron proposes should be here or in a special type.

Sats & Mines:
1 stock each
I like the idea of adding 2 more to have one pic for every stock size.
The sock names "Satellite" and "Mine" should be the medium one just like the "Carrier"

Fighters:
3 stock + 2 NS = 5
Does Fyron proposes 6 more because he needs 11 pics?
Or only needs 6 in total or 6 + the 3 stock?

Troops:
3 stock + 1 NS = 4

Weapon Platforms:
3 Stock
a 4th one is not such a bad idea

Drones:
1 stock

And these are "special" types, what mean they can't be counted as additional ships in any of the categories above.

Special ships (planet sized - Worldship):
1 NS

Special ships (starliners)
2 proportion proposals

Special ships (Stellar Manipulation)
1 NS

Special Ships (resources)
1 NS

Special Stations (resources)
1 NS

Special Troops (Infantry)
1 NS
I guess that as many mods add a second infantry we should add it, I propose to call the pic "TroopInfantryHeavy"

dogscoff

January 14th, 2003, 04:33 PM

But if the standard gets too long artists will never get to make all pic sizes, 70 sounds like too much.Very true, that's one reason I'm reluctant to add anything at all. For this reason I suggest adding a second "layer" to the neostandard- a secondary list which will appended to the first list and labelled as "optional". The truth is that all the neostandard images are optional, but splitting the list like this might make it all a little less daunting.

Images which become really popular with modders can be bumped up to the main list, and vice versa.

>We should try to unify image names a little as >we did for the original 20 names.

Of all the new sizes listed, the ones which really grab my attention for inclusion in the main list would be the starliners and cargostation(perhaps merging them somehow under S_J's "civilian" suggestion), the 4th weapon platform the second infantry pic and the satellites. I agree with the troopinfantryheavy name, although PvK is already using eliteinfantry.

The beauty of the satellites is that they can be included in any mod- even in the standard game- because the original image can be used as a default for all 3 and no-one will notice the difference. The same could be true of mines and drones.

I'm torn on the 5th transport size: There's always the barge image to act as a backup for massive transports, but on the other hand the barge is a distinct class. What do ppl think?

I'm not sure what Fyron had in mind with the fighters. His vehiclesize.txt has 6 fighter hulls, but calls for a lot of new images, despite 5 images being available in the neostandard. That was an early Version of the file though, I know he updated it but I don't have the updated Version on this machine. He may have wanted the bombers to look very different from the fighters.

I'm tempted to say that the extra warships are overkill, but some ppl probably said that about the destroyer heavy etc. They could certainly go onto a secondary list, if that ever came into being.

[ January 14, 2003, 14:35: Message edited by: dogscoff ]

dogscoff

January 14th, 2003, 04:38 PM

For anyone stumbling into this thread and wondering what the hell we're on about... here are two links to bring you up to speed.
Encyclopedia Malfadorica neo-standard entry (http://invirtuo.cc/phpwiki/index.php/Neo-standard) and the neostandard home page (http://www.sandman43.fsnet.co.uk/neostand.htm).

Timstone

January 14th, 2003, 05:12 PM

Good idea, but I hope you can see what hulls are being used in which mod.
Damn, 70 pics! I have a lot of work to do.
I realy hate it when the same pic is being used for two or more shipsizes. So I started work on my Ipsha shipset. It's my first, but I wanted to make it right in one go (as far as the different pics concerned). That goal will surely be a longhaul. I thought I was well on my way with almost half the pics they use in the standard game and in the B5Mod. But now it seems I'll have to make more and more different shippics. A daunting task indeed.

mlmbd

January 14th, 2003, 05:18 PM

OK! For my two cents. As an artist, not a modder (and some will say not much of an artist, either), I would prefer more images. The more the better. All artist like showing off their work. That said, the modder's should say what images (if any) they want added to the Neo set. It is after all up to them to assign images in their mods.

I like the; troopinfantryheavy name as well. But since PvK is already using Elite Infantry in his mod why not adopt that as the Troop Infantry Heavy. Or make the Elite Infantry and Troop Infantry Heavy additions to the Neo set. I like the ladder idea.

I also like SJ's idea of "Civilian type Images". Like the cargo station (civilianstation, or both), "civilianship" or "civiliantransport". Like Ferries (Ferryboats) or Starliners with special Quarter's for VIP travel! If you make them Starliners then
Pvk will get his images for his mod and the Neo set will get 2 or 3 additions.

Alright, I got more than two cents worth!

mlmbd http://www.shrapnelgames.com//ubb/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

mlmbd

January 14th, 2003, 05:23 PM

Timstone, 70 images! Daunting indeed! But, I did not hear form you that it was not something you absolutely relish the thought of! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif More of my work for people to see!

mlmbd http://www.shrapnelgames.com//ubb/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

dogscoff

January 14th, 2003, 05:38 PM

That said, the modder's should say what images (if any) they want added to the Neo set.
The idea of the neo-standard was to minimise the amount of additional images needed by using a common naming convention and so increase the likelihood that each image is used in multpile mods.

I'm like you, I like to do loads of extra images for a shipset, but not all shipset artists are the same:-(

Timstone

January 14th, 2003, 05:46 PM

I don't like to make too much extra images. Not because I don't like it or because I can't. But it's the time that's involved. Now it takes me a full two days to make one completly new reasonably detailed model. I don't work every day on a new model, so I would take me aproxemately 200 days to make acomplete shipset. That's a long time to wait on an exelent shipset, isn't it?!

Gryphin

January 14th, 2003, 06:00 PM

Perhaps instead of
Sub Set 1
Sub Set 2
Perhaps "Themantic Sets"
Pirates
Rock Paper Sissors
or by Catagory
Fighters, Troops, etc...

mlmbd

January 14th, 2003, 06:01 PM

Timstone, just release the stock shipset first! Then make updates to that set. Like dogscoff is doing with Neo set!

Just a thought!

dogscoff, tis true not all ship artist are the same. But real artist (no offence meant) are the same. They want more of their worked shown all over!

mlmbd http://www.shrapnelgames.com//ubb/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Timstone

January 14th, 2003, 06:15 PM

Mlmbd: That's a good idea. Not bad at all. But how may pics are that?

dogscoff

January 14th, 2003, 06:26 PM

Timstone - thie thing to remember about the neostandard is that it's all optional. You can do all the images, some of them or none at all for your shipset. It will still be compatible with all mods, but the more images you do, the nicer it will look=-)

mlmbd

January 14th, 2003, 06:30 PM

The stock set 36 images, if I am not mistaken. So 18 or so ships with mini's. Plus 20 images, for the present Neo-Standard! Not to bad!

mlmbd http://www.shrapnelgames.com//ubb/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Timstone

January 14th, 2003, 06:36 PM

mlmbd

January 14th, 2003, 06:45 PM

Timstone; Sure, you can select any background you want for the portrait. As long as you make the mini with a Black background. And if you make an image of a large mine, you just need to name it that. Same goes for the small mine. Different images for each.

mlmbd http://www.shrapnelgames.com//ubb/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

dogscoff

January 14th, 2003, 06:56 PM

Okay, I'll concentrate on the stockset first. Then I'll move on to a complete set compatible with most mods. Btw, is it possible to give each ship it's own pic? So a large mine has the pic of a large mine and the small mine has a pic of a small mine
You can make whatever images you like. The trick is in getting modders to use your extra images. That's what brought the neostandard into creation.

Extra mine pics would be good, as would sats and drones for reasons I've mentioned below.

Timstone

January 14th, 2003, 07:25 PM

So far I've got 3 different mines, sats and drones. I'm beginning with the bases now. I'm planning 5 different bases (the B5Mod has 5 kinds of bases).
Thanks for the advise guys!

Fyron

January 14th, 2003, 10:18 PM

Normal ships:
8 from the stock game pics + 5 from current NS = 13
Fyron seems to need more than these total 13, 4 more to get a total of 17 or can we unify some pic names?

No, they can't be unified. A light destroyer, destroyer and heavvy destroyer are not the same ship, just like light, medium and heavy cruisers are not the same ship. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Bases
3 stock + 1 NS = 4
BTW The Starbase is a stock pic, not neo-standard.

I don't know if the ones Fyron proposes should be here or in a special type.

SpaceFortress would definitely go in here. CargoStation could, or could be a CivilianStation or something. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Fighters:
3 stock + 2 NS = 5
Does Fyron proposes 6 more because he needs 11 pics?
Or only needs 6 in total or 6 + the 3 stock?

Not sure, but I will probably use Small-Medium for Attack Fighter, Interceptor and Heavy Interceptor. Orbital Fighter is supposed to be a fighter that can't move on the strategic map, only in combat. It is smaller than Small Fighter. The Bomber and Heavy Bomber are larger than Large Fighters. They should look a bit different than the other fighters though.

Troops:
3 stock + 1 NS = 4

For Troops, I have Infantry, Light Mechanized, Heavy Mechanized, Small, Medium and Heavy Battle Mechas. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I think that the normal troop pics can be used for the Battle Mechas, and some new pics would be needed for Light and Heavy Mechanized. They can be named Small and Large if you really want, it doesn't matter too much.

Andr�s

January 15th, 2003, 01:17 AM

I think that more than twice the stock number of normal ships is ovekill.
But if we're going to add so many maybe it's a good idea to add one in between each pair of stock pics, to have a better gradient (you can then name pics however you like).

We cannot worry aobut every detail in every mod. Do you need one or two more fighters in the 5 fighters scale (the smallers can have one role and the bigger other), or need another familily of special fighters.

And pictures for almost all SE3 troops, why not up to the apocalypse tanks? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

About the name of the larger infantry, I think we should keep the same naming convention we're using now.
Remember I had suggested it to use just "Infantry" Last time, and I was already using that name in my mods, but you insisted that it should start with "troop" to be easier to find when ordering names alphabetically.

I never liked the use of the name "Civilian" meaning a hull that cannot be used as a warship.
All ships in SE4 are part of a military force commanded by the emperor/player.
A civilian ship should be something else used by civilan members of the population an empire's population and not under direct control of the player, something that cannot be modded into the game, unless you turn its ministers on and pretend that it's controled by civilans.

That said I like the idea of adding a series of small/med/large "NonCombat" ships and stations.
Those pics can be used for the starliners in proportions, but
Perhaps even the Barge can be changed to the massive noncombat ship.

Another detail I think we should emphasize more in the site is that that we like variety in hull sizes and names. If for example we refuse to add a picture called "cutter" that does not mean that we don't like the idea of mods adding a hull named cutter, perhaps it should use the "scout" pic.

Timstone
The even if we minimize the new inclusions NS pictures will be nearly as many as the stock ones. Perhaps it'd be better to start a 2nd shipset instead of making twice as many pictures for one.

Suicide Junkie

January 15th, 2003, 02:02 AM

That is a good point. Change "civilian" to "noncombatant" in my Posts and/or suggestions. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Ed Kolis

January 15th, 2003, 05:04 AM

Personally, I think we should have more base hulls... seems kind of silly to have 8 ships (plus all the "special purpose" ships like carriers, transports, and colony ships) but only 3 bases... surely you can construct bases in a variety of sizes as well? I guess it's just that bases aren't all that important in SE4 with the introduction of Units - weapons platforms and satellites take over much of the work that bases performed in SE2/3 - but still, I do like the idea in MOO3 where there are 14 ship sizes and 14 base sizes, the bases simply having more space available...

mlmbd

January 15th, 2003, 06:09 PM

I agree with Andr&eacutes Lescano. I think that we should to images in sets of three. IE, Small/Medium/Large and Light/Stock/Heavy were it is applicable. Would consider adding 'apocalypse tanks' as he suggest, as well.

I agree with fyron as well. I would also add that the fighter catagorey should be like this:

Fighter Small/Med/large
Fighter Attack
Fighter Bomber Light
Fighter Bomber Heavy
Fighter Bomber Regular
Fighter Huge
Fighter Interceptor Light
Fighter Interceptor Heavy
Fighter Interceptor Regular
Fighter Massive
Fighter Orbital

Troops:

Troop Small/Med/Large
Troop Apocalypse tank S/M/L or L/H/Regular
Troop Huge
Troop Infantry
Troop Infantry Elite
Troop Mechanized Heavy
Troop Mechanized Light
Troop Mechanized Regular
Troop Mechanized Battle Large
Troop Mechanized Battle Medium
Troop Mechanized Battle Small

Normal ships:

All with 3 'Grades'

Non-Combatant Starliner Large
Non-Combatant Starliner Medium
Non-Combatant Starliner Small
Non-Combatant/what ever?

Bases:

Non-Combatant/what ever ?

SpaceFortress Large
SpaceFortress Medium
SpaceFortress Small
OR
SpaceFortress Heavy
SpaceFortress Light
SpaceFortress Regular

I don't feel the modder who isn't an artist should be penalized for that. It seems unfair (IMHO) to make the modder use images that already exits, because of that. He has every right to ask for the images he wants for his mod to be different. If I was a modder I sure the heck would. I know I got in on the end of this. I don't want to piss anyone off. You all asks for opinions. So, I supplied mine.

I know that some shipset artists are going to be annoyed at me. OK!! I am a shipset artist as well. I just think that this is the right thing to do. Even if it means 3x more work for me to put out a Shipset.

I am now getting off the 'box'!

mlmbd http://www.shrapnelgames.com//ubb/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

dogscoff

January 15th, 2003, 06:51 PM

Regarding the small/ medium/ large sats/ mines/ drones: I've just mailed malfador and asked to have distinct pics added as an option to the standard vehiclesize.txt

I know moddable changes don't tend to take a high priority in patches but this doesn't affect game balance and it won't require any testing of any sort, so I thought it might make it in.

Fyron

January 15th, 2003, 09:24 PM

Another detail I think we should emphasize more in the site is that that we like variety in hull sizes and names. If for example we refuse to add a picture called "cutter" that does not mean that we don't like the idea of mods adding a hull named cutter, perhaps it should use the "scout" pic.But what about mods needing both? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Suicide Junkie

January 15th, 2003, 11:02 PM

There is absolutely no reason why you can't call for more images than the neostandard suggests.

That's what the secondary image name is for http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Fyron

January 15th, 2003, 11:47 PM

Of course not! But I can still try to get them added to the neostandard so that they will be used! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Andr�s

January 16th, 2003, 02:00 AM

Fyron how many "normal" ships you have?
I think it will be more reasonalbe to add another pic between some larger ones than another below the escort. The only thing that really matters for the standard is the final number of pics, and I think you artists can balance pics better that way.

Ed, Adding more bases doesn't sound like a bad idea.
We're actually talking about 13 ship pictures and only 4 base pics.
But so far modders have not requested many more base pictures.

The neo-standard is not a mod to add new hull sizes. It is not even a mod by itself.
It is a tool, based on existing and projected mods designed to help "modders" and "artists" use the same picture names in mods.
And also help minimize the number of those extra pictures by dictating common pictures names
The fact that many mods copy the vehicle names from the pic name, is an unwanted side effect.
It's so boring that all mods add the same vehicle sizes.
I wish we would have used a code or number for the pic names.

Regarding the small/ medium/ large sats/ mines/ drones: I've just mailed malfador and asked to have distinct pics added as an option to the standard vehiclesize.txtI like this, if they are officially added into the stock vehiclesizes file, then those pics will become optional stock files like the baseship is now.
Should we all insit?

I agree with Andr�s Lescano. I think that we should to images in sets of three. IE, Small/Medium/Large and Light/Stock/Heavy were it is applicable. Would consider adding 'apocalypse tanks' as he suggest, as well.Did I say that?
Actually I don't really like that idea.
Different shipsets have troops that look like infantry, atmospheric fighters, hover vehicles, tanks, war-beasts, other type of mechas, ect. Do you want to remove all that by forcing all shipsets to have first infantry, then mechanized troops, then mechas and finally finish with massive tanks would be against the originality of different shipsets.
But if you're gonna add SEIII troop categories into SEIV you should go all the way.
BTW IIRC their names were "Blight Tanks" "Eradication Tanks" and "Apocalypse Tanks"
Perhaps the best way would be 2 or 3 infantry and then just many "normal" troops (including stock ones) shaped like the ground attack vehicle of each race.

I agree that the current 5 fighter pics may be too little (but better than only the 3 stock). But I'm still not sure what is the best way to handle fighter pics.
A long gradient of 10+ fighters?
2 or 3 different looking "families" with 3 or 4 sizes each?

Fyron

January 16th, 2003, 02:31 AM

Here is the *VehicleSizes.txt* (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1042677033.txt) of the mod I am making. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

But if you're gonna add SEIII troop categories into SEIV you should go all the way.
BTW IIRC their names were "Blight Tanks" "Eradication Tanks" and "Apocalypse Tanks"
Perhaps the best way would be 2 or 3 infantry and then just many "normal" troops (including stock ones) shaped like the ground attack vehicle of each race.My goal was not to add the troop types from se3. That is more of a coincidence than anything.

I agree that the current 5 fighter pics may be too little (but better than only the 3 stock). But I'm still not sure what is the best way to handle fighter pics.
A long gradient of 10+ fighters?
2 or 3 different looking "families" with 3 or 4 sizes each?The familes sounds good to me. 3 families of 5 sounds good. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ January 16, 2003, 00:37: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

mlmbd

January 16th, 2003, 02:46 AM

Andr&eacutes Lescano: Different shipsets have troops that look like infantry, atmospheric fighters, hover vehicles, tanks, war-beasts, other type of mechas, ect. Do you want to remove all that by forcing all shipsets to have first infantry, then mechanized troops, then mechas and finally finish with massive tanks would be against the originality of different shipsets. I am not tring to remove 'anything'. So I am tring to 'force' anything on anyone! I am working with the data supplied to me. If there are other images that different mods use. Just tell me what they are. Don't cope an additude. Geesh! Seems we are all tring to work towards the same end.

mlmbd http://www.shrapnelgames.com//ubb/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Gryphin

January 16th, 2003, 03:06 AM

About the naming of Troops, Fighters, and Mabye Weapons plats,
Perhaps name the sizes after military unit sizes:
Fire Team > Squad > Platoon > Company > etc..

PvK

January 16th, 2003, 10:16 AM

Hmm. I wonder if maybe the "tons of ship sizes" thing ought not to be its own standard, or an extended Version of the Neo Standard. The Neo Standard is really nice as it is, mainly in that there is a good amount of overlap in use, and a good number of sets that support it, especially with the recent additions to the original shipsets.

Fyron's mod isn't the only one to offer a large range of ship sizes, but I don't know of any ship sets that offer different images for so many sizes. In fact, many of the existing shipsets have some very similar-looking ships. If the Neo Standard added three or more times as many sizes, the matrix would mainly get harder to read. Is anyone actually planning to provide shipsets with so many sizes?

PvK

dogscoff

January 16th, 2003, 10:37 AM

My opinions on what should be added:

4 troops + 2 infantry is enough.

5 fighters is enough. Maybe add an orbital fighter at the bottom, but I think that would definitely be enough.

A few more bases would be a good idea.

the non-combat vehicles are a great idea.

Only one or two more warship sizes are necessary. Perhaps light & heavy frigate?

mlm: I don't think anyone meant any offence.

PvK: I'm planning a fully neostandard compliant set and i know mlmbd is keen, but I don't think many others will bother, especially if we extend it by another 10 or 20 images. Take a look at the list of compliant sets on my webpage: there are about half a dozen sets with more than 2 images, and that's more than a year after the neostandard was first defined. It's not all that popular with shipset makers after all.

For this reason I think a drastic expansion would be a bad idea.

Therefore I think we should split the neostandard: I think any additons we make now should be "neostandard 2" or even better, divorce it completely from the neostandard and call it the "ultrastandard" or something. This would just just be a marketting trick to make it less daunting to shipset makers. If we did this, however, we could really go to town and make the "ultrastandard" (or whatever name) as big as the neostandard or bigger.

Edit: Just realised that PvK suggested this Last point before me. Soory mate, didn't want to steal your ideas=-)

[ January 16, 2003, 08:42: Message edited by: dogscoff ]

mlmbd

January 17th, 2003, 02:50 AM

PvK, your idea about any further expantion to be it's own standard, or an extended Version of the Neo Standard is excellent. When I started to help dogscoff that idea crossed my mind. Dogscoff and did so much talking trying to get me up to speed on the NXP that I may have even mentioned it. Maybe not. Either way, it is a great idea.

Dogscoff, if you decide to use the multiple Neo set idea. Why not make it like:
Neo Standard (first 20 images added)
Neo Standard 2 - the next + 20 or 30 images
Neo Ultra Standard 1 - the next + 20 or 30 images
Neo Ultra Standard 2 - the next + 20 or 30 images
Neo Ober Standard 1 - the next + 20 or 30 images
Neo Ober Standard 2 - the next + 20 or 30 images
Of course these are just names. They could be 'anything' you chose to call the next generation of the Neo set(s)!

This would make it even less daunting to shipset makers. It would also give modders the oppurtunity to do exactly what the want in the form of images they would like or feel they need for their mods.

It might even bring Modder and Shipset Builder closer together!

Just a thought!

dogscoff, by the way, that is why I wanted the text file setup the way I mentioned. For me being able to keep track of images needed/done. When we first started talking about the NXP!

mlmbd http://www.shrapnelgames.com//ubb/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

PvK

January 25th, 2003, 11:25 PM

mlmbd, Dogscoff, image modders - have you ever made a ship called a large starliner? I don't think anyone has, as it's a pretty obscure ship. So I'm going to change the primary image for it to Barge, unless someone has ever made one.

Also, on the Neo-Standard web pages, I notice that the UkraTal Corvette image isn't labelled, and there is a broken link from http://www.sandman43.fsnet.co.uk/neoexpansiondownload.htm to "Neo-expansion main".

PvK

Andr�s

January 26th, 2003, 07:31 AM

In the Last discussions we mention the possibility of adding starliner or "noncombatant" pictures to the standard.

mlmbd

January 26th, 2003, 03:48 PM

PvK, image modders - have you ever made a ship called a large starliner? Yes Sir, I have made both of the 'starliner' images Large and regular. I have also made your extra 'colony ship' image as well! When the name/additions gets all sorted out, I will send them to dogscoff.

mlmbd http://www.shrapnelgames.com//ubb/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

orev_saara

January 26th, 2003, 09:46 PM

Ah, shipsets. In some ways, this is the hardest thing about modding, for us non-artists anyway. So I think I'll start by saying that anyone who Posts new ship graphics is one of the good guys in my book.

I haven't looked as closely at the neo-standard shipset as I probably should have, and maybe this has been done since I downloaded, and Lastly, it's not exactly on the topic, but what would help me most would be if those extra categories of stadard ships were flehed out for the races from the original SE. And maybe the TDM guys too. And an order of fries. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

dogscoff

January 27th, 2003, 12:00 AM

I haven't looked as closely at the neo-standard shipset as I probably should have, and maybe this has been done since I downloaded, and Lastly, it's not exactly on the topic, but
HI Orev. The Neo standard isn't a shipsets. It is that list of "extra catagories" you mention. Take a look at http://www.sandman43.fsnet.co.uk/neostand.htm for more details.

what would help me most would be if those extra categories of stadard ships were flehed out for the races from the original SE. And maybe the TDM guys too. And an order of fries.
Your wish has been granted. Take a look at the neo-expansion project. http://www.sandman43.fsnet.co.uk/neostandexpansion.htm - There is still a lot of work to do but there is stuff there to play with already.

orev_saara

January 27th, 2003, 10:12 AM

Yeah, I got this stuff, and it is good. Very good. But just like everyone's favorite orphan, I want some more, please. Not more categories, after thinking about it, I decided that the neostandard already has plenty for my needs. Just filling in those categories for all of the races would be excellent.

By the way, I'd like to plug the image archive, while we're talking about images. That stuff is awesome! Plus, I had no idea how many pictures in the original games files were unused. Amazing. Not too sure about the space bunny, though.

mlmbd

January 27th, 2003, 01:35 PM

orev_saara, we are working on closing out 'ALL' the SEIV standard races with 'All' the images.

I don't know when dogscoff has his next release to the NXP scheduled. But you will see a lot of 'new' images. I even think that one race will be complete.

mlmbd http://www.shrapnelgames.com//ubb/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

mlmbd

February 7th, 2003, 01:11 PM

*BUMP*

mlmbd http://www.shrapnelgames.com//ubb/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

mlmbd

February 17th, 2003, 01:55 PM

dogscoff, Hey 'Boss'!

mlmbd http://www.shrapnelgames.com//ubb/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

mlmbd

March 12th, 2003, 05:45 PM

dogscoff, can we pickup this dicussion, again? I am getting ready to release 'my' first shipset. It will not only be NeoStandard. But, it will include all of the images for PvK's Proportions Mod (plus ones he is planning to add) and about 1/2 of the images Fyron wanted.

I was thinking of calling it NeoStanard ++. Any comments?

mlmbd http://www.shrapnelgames.com//ubb/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

dogscoff

March 12th, 2003, 05:57 PM

OK... well, that sounds good to me. From the discussion on this thread I think the neostandard should be left as it is, but a second set of ships would be an excellent idea, and I don't think anyone will have a problem with the name "neostandard ++"

It sounds like you've already made a list. What sizes do you have in there? I'm planning to go beyond the neo-standard with my KanesS set, so I'll probably fall into line with you.

[ March 12, 2003, 16:25: Message edited by: dogscoff ]

dogscoff

March 12th, 2003, 06:24 PM

Thought it was about time this thread had a name change=-)

mlmbd

March 13th, 2003, 12:57 AM

Here is the neo-standard++ list:

neo-standard++.txt (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1047509642.txt)

mlmbd http://www.shrapnelgames.com//ubb/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Gryphin

March 13th, 2003, 01:17 AM

mlmbd
That is a great list, thanks.
Um, would I be a jerk if I aksked you to:
Identify which goes with wich mod
What the expected sizes are.
Well, would I?

mlmbd

March 13th, 2003, 03:56 PM

Gryphin, Um, would I be a jerk if I aksked you to:
Identify which goes with wich mod
What the expected sizes are.
Well, would I? No, not at all. I am not sure about all the images, and the data, you want. But, I will find out and add that info to the text file!

In fact, anyone that knows the Mod/Modder and or the size (in kilotons) of the images, post it here! Thanks!

mlmbd http://www.shrapnelgames.com//ubb/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

dogscoff

March 13th, 2003, 04:07 PM

In fact, anyone that knows the Mod/Modder and or the size (in kilotons) of the images
The neo-standard images don't have specific kiloton values assigned to them. They are just images. It is up to the modder to decide how big that ship should be.

Or, more accurately, you could say that the modder creates a hull size and then decides which of the additional images fits it best.

trooper

March 13th, 2003, 04:50 PM

Does anyone know a shipset designer ready to create 66 pictures for a shipset ? Neo standard in its current Version ask a lot of work (more than most designers are ready to provide...) for the 20 supplementary pictures. But this neostandard++ seems far two wide.
Nethertheless, that's my opinion.

dogscoff

March 13th, 2003, 04:57 PM

Does anyone know a shipset designer ready to create 66 pictures for a shipset ?
Well... there's mlmbd=-) Check out his new puntherraian (http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=008453) (sp?) set.

I know what you mean though, that's why the ++ set has been kept seperate from the neostandard- to make it less imposing. Remember that all of these images are optional. For instance, my next set (http://www.sandman43.fsnet.co.uk/KanesS.htm) will probably have all the standard images, all the neostandard ones and maybe 3 or 4 ++ images.

[ March 13, 2003, 15:03: Message edited by: dogscoff ]

mlmbd

March 13th, 2003, 05:06 PM

dogscoff, The neo-standard images don't have specific kiloton values assigned to them. They are just images. It is up to the modder to decide how big that ship should be. I do understand, they are just images. However, PvK had a size in mind for his images. For instance the SpaceStation Large is 1000k and Battlestation Large is 2000k. So I can understand why someone might want to know the weights.

trooper, Does anyone know a shipset designer ready to create 66 pictures for a shipset ? I won't take that personally. I for one will do 66 or more if necessary. You are a real killjoy.

Neo standard in its current Version ask a lot of work (more than most designers are ready to provide...) for the 20 supplementary pictures. But this neostandard++ seems far two wide. The Neo-Standard is more for Modders than ship designers. If you don't want to do the additional images, don't do them. But, if do not do the images the modders won't be inclined to use your shipsets!

mlmbd http://www.shrapnelgames.com//ubb/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

dogscoff

March 13th, 2003, 05:20 PM

Hey mlmbd, check out this new page in the malfadorica (http://www.invirtuo.cc/phpwiki/index.php/Neo-standard%2B%2B). You can edit it if you like, and I've left it open for you to create pages for yourself and your new shipset: just click the appropriate question marks.

As for the tonnage sizes... I know what you mean, but the problem is that people then start thinking that the neostandard defines inflexible limits on what the images can and cannot be used for. If a modder wants to use the scout image to represent a 20000kt ultradreadnought, that's fine, but specifying tonnages contradicts that.

If someone wants to know how an image should look so he can make a shipset then it's probably best to say "between destroyer and light cruiser" or something like that. The "special" sizes (barge, infantry) need a little extra description.

trooper

March 13th, 2003, 08:41 PM

In my opinion, a "standard" is something destined to be widely used...

BTW what mods use neostandard++ ?

Dogscoff, how long have you been working on kaneS ? try to finish it before SE V is released !
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[ March 13, 2003, 18:46: Message edited by: trooper ]

dogscoff

March 14th, 2003, 01:18 AM

Dogscoff, how long have you been working on kaneS ? try to finish it before SE V is released !
Hey! Give me a chance! I have to finish the Vikings first (I first started it June 2001 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif )

Seriously, I did upload some new KanesS ships yesterday...

mlmbd

March 14th, 2003, 01:36 AM

dogscoff, I missed the Starliner Large. I am going to talk to Fyron and see what other images he wants for his Mods. I asked PvK if there were any other images he wanted for Proportions Mod. He said that I had made all the images for the forseeable future. So the Neo-Standard ++ is at 12 additions. Would it seem right to keep adding to it until there are 20 total addtional images, over the Neo-Standard??

OH, Thanks for the malfadorica. WOW!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

mlmbd http://www.shrapnelgames.com//ubb/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif 

[ March 13, 2003, 23:38: Message edited by: mlmbd ]

dogscoff

March 14th, 2003, 11:45 AM

mlmbd: Go for it. I'm not sure that simply adding hulls to reach an arbitrary limit is necessarily a good idea, but if you can find them, use them.

Fyron

March 14th, 2003, 12:05 PM

Well... go to the Adamant Mod web site (linked in my sig) and d/l the mod. Look in VehicleSizes.txt to see the sizes the mod is designed to use. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

mlmbd

March 14th, 2003, 04:34 PM

dogscoff, Originally posted by dogscoff:
mlmbd: Go for it. I'm not sure that simply adding hulls to reach an arbitrary limit is necessarily a good idea, but if you can find them, use them.I guess what I said was confussing, SORRY! I am not going to arbitrarly add images. I mean to add images the Neo-Standard ++ until there are a total of 20. Modders would decide what those images would be. After those 20 slots are full just add another '+' to the Neo-Standard ++. Does that make more sense?

mlmbd http://www.shrapnelgames.com//ubb/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Fyron

March 16th, 2003, 09:04 AM

Dogscoff, why does the Neo-Standard page still not mention anything about Adamant Mod? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Phoenix-D

June 4th, 2003, 01:50 AM

Dogscoff, when you asked about updating the Cluk-Ruk you mentioned the Sat pictures were wrong.

On the neo standard page there ARE no sat pictures. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Can you update it, or at least post the standard names here?

EDIT: or are they on the ++ list?

[ June 04, 2003, 00:51: Message edited by: Phoenix-D ]

Lord Kodos

June 4th, 2003, 07:58 AM

Dogscoff:Legacy of the Ra'shrakil uses quite a few Neostandard Images and then some! Please update accordingly. Oh and Hughs beutifull rendition of my Azlokian also uses Neo-Standard images.

PS:Make a Generic Neostandard ++ Shipset! ^__^

dogscoff

June 4th, 2003, 09:34 AM

Dogscoff:Legacy of the Ra'shrakil uses quite a few Neostandard Images and then some! Please update accordingly.
OK, will do. Not sure when, but hopefully in the next few days.

Oh and Hughs beutifull rendition of my Azlokian also uses Neo-Standard images.
Yup. got that one- been up there for a week or two now=-)

PS:Make a Generic Neostandard ++ Shipset! ^__^
Uhhh... maybe. I did post a few generic starliners and an elite infantry a while back for proportions players, but I have no idea where to find it now. I think you'll find it in forthcoming Versions of proportions if nowhere else.

I might have a few other generic ++ images scuffing around here somewhere as well, but apart from that I'm afraid you'll have to find someone else or wait a looong time. I have a bit too much on my plate already- sorry.

Dogscoff, when you asked about updating the Cluk-Ruk you mentioned the Sat pictures were wrong.

On the neo standard page there ARE no sat pictures.

EDIT: or are they on the ++ list?
Yes, they are, but even then I think there might be some confusion. However a quick look at existing sets with extra sat images (ie the Puntherraian, the Moonbeams, my KanesS and your ClukRuk) showed the most popular naming convention to be satellitesize rather than sizesatellite, so this is the one I imagine any mods which use the images would adopt. It also Groups the images together alphabeticallly in the folder=-)

Also, remember that there's no need to allocate a size to all three images: You can name any one of the three just "satellite" and let it fill the gap by default, ie satellitesmall, satellite, satellitelarge or satellite, satellitemedium, satellitelarge. These will display correctly if the mod has just "satellite" as the default for all three sizes.

Dogscoff, why does the Neo-Standard page still not mention anything about Adamant Mod?
Yeah, sorry about the delay. Fixed now.