Star Wars Mod - II (Sci-Fi Xover Mod) [Archive] - Page 2

TerranC

March 15th, 2002, 07:24 AM

I have an idea, if it was not already introduced or not too late:

That we include some Micro-components in the mod.

Kind of like Smaller Weaponry and Components that you use for fighters and troops, but about 5-10 kt bigger that are put in ships, preferred small (Escort to Destroyers).

Micro-Weaponry should deal up to 50-100% to it's damage in each tech level.

Micro Sensors should get its capabilities cut by 25% (from normal ship sensors)

Micro Defensive Systems should create 45-60% of the defensive capability. (PSG creates 375 PSP at level 5 so M-PSG should create 170 PSP at around 45% of it. (severly rounded up)) (Micro Crystaline should still channel 15% but has a resistance of 70% at near 50%.)

Ship control should still stay the same as you can't make your crew smaller, the same with engines and other extras such as Mining, Colonization, Space yards (Mini SY's are just cheap in my opinion), Some weapons should not be Small such as bombs, Viruses or racial tech, and ESPECIALLY Null space weaps. (boy can you imagine...)

How bout it folks?

Edit: The reason for this Suggestion is I'd like to see some advantages for making Escorts to Light cruisers combat vessles other than cheap and the Hit-to bonus. The Hit-to bonus can be easily compensated, then it's just like crushing a bug.

Since in many sci-fi shows, small space-borne crafts are featured many, many, times with many Feddie ships being only destroyers to Cruisers in comparison with SE4G, Klingon ships having Escorts as their primary combat vessle, Star Wars where Groups of fighters and corvettes destroying a Baseship, and In Babylon, many ships are very, very small compared to ships of the ancients.

[ 15 March 2002: Message edited by: TerranC ]

jimbob

March 15th, 2002, 09:19 AM

There have been a number of mods with weapon mounts that supply micro-components (especially micro weapons). Personally I found that they just bogged the game down because someone (usually the computer) would load up a battlecruiser with a million micro DUCs, or something equally small and numerous.

I guess if they were actual small components, rather than a type of mount you could limit how many could be put on a ship... hmmm, that wouldn't be so bad I guess.

(ps go flames go... don't think the oil will make it this year http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif )

Andr�s

March 15th, 2002, 03:23 PM

TerranC:
Most fighter weapons in the standard game have very large damage Ratings and would be super powerful if mounted on ships. I know that's not what you meant, but it's something interesting done to compensate other weaknesses of fighters.

I was already making many SW weapons and other comps such as shields very small or with small Versions. A small Corellian Gunship will be able to carry its shields and good weapons

At least SW and I think that B5 too, shares the se4-like idea of "the bigger the better" (being the Death Star the ultimate expression, but not the only one example)
Not all trek races lack of a good number of really big ships, Romulans have many warbirds, and Borgs have many cubes.
Many races also lack of fighters (or use them very rarely like the Feds), and I've seen many fans classify ships of nearly 150m like fighters!

Val:
A to hit penalty was something I was considering to prevent usage in warships. (note that in combat the cloaking device is turned off so the ship shouldn't be blind)
I was also considering making it a base only or maybe count as engine but give 0 movs to make the ship slower by allowing 1 less engine.

These are the cloaking devices I'm considering:
(The first 2 should provide very limited cloaking similar to stealth armor, or cloaking dev I)

Sensor Stealth Pod
Crude but effective stealth method that makes a ship "run silent" by shutting down all energy emitting systems. Knocking down reactors, however, drains the ship's energy fast and can only be used for short periods of time before running out of supplies.

Sensor Mask
Completely opposite to sensor stealth, this device combines electromagnetic and holographic transmissions to "hide" a starship from most sensors. It doesn't absorb sensor beams but, rather, disrupts them by sending back information on the environment surrounding a starship, making a ship virtually disappear.

Cloaking Device
Cloaking device that wraps the universe around a starship. That makes it impossible for any kind from EM signals from the outside universe to interact with the ship, or for any emission to come out from the ship. That renders the ship completely undetectable by any means, but also leaves it completely blind to the universe around it. Jumping into hyperspace while cloaked can make it unstable and cause the starship to explode.

Andr�s

March 15th, 2002, 07:57 PM

I’m still light-years from completing the SW map, but I just had this idea. Give known spaceyard planets such as Kuat, Fondor, Corellia, Mon Calamari, ect. a built-in bonus space yard abilities, so when stacked with a normal sy facility can build things faster. The same way give some intel modifier to Bothawi, and some other bonuses to other planets to encourage players to use them somehow similarly to how they are suppose to be.

Fyron

March 16th, 2002, 01:06 AM

Are you sure that those abilities would work on planets? It seems to me as if they would not work.

Andr�s

March 16th, 2002, 04:51 AM

Well I didn't make a test yet, but I've seen many stellar abilities work in comp/facilities/vehiclesizes and many comp abilities work in facilities/vehiclesizes so I figured they'd work.

Fyron

March 16th, 2002, 10:53 AM

Andr�s:
Which abilities work on abnormal object types?

All:
How would you guys feel about extending the tech tree a bit for this mod? As in, having 10 levels of resource buildings instead of 3, 10 levels of ECM and Combat Sensors, etc.

Suicide Junkie

March 16th, 2002, 05:44 PM

The Babylon-5 bits use 24 levels in both Sensors and ECM.

If the extra levels are designed to remain balanced, and add something to the strategy as well, I'm all for it.

Andr�s

March 16th, 2002, 08:00 PM

I just uploaded some merged files. Bearclaw and Fyron please check for mistakes/omission when adding your data.
SJ please take a look at the combat, comps and facility pics and see about merging with the pic mod. Please correct me if I used some pic num that was already used.
http://se4kdy.cyberwars.com/files/sci-fi-cross/

[ 16 March 2002: Message edited by: Andr�s Lescano ]

Val

March 16th, 2002, 08:40 PM

Andres:
I like the idea of the 3 different cloaking devices in the mod. Working on some for B5 now as well - from the stealth armor (Centauri) to the Torvalus Stealth Shading Device (total cloaking above all younger races sensors).

IF:
10 levels of resources sounds good as well, though might want to spread the current #2&3 to #3&5 and fill in the space between to have a more gradual raising.

Just posted a gamma patch on the B5Thread with Molecular Weapons, Plasma Weapons and some reworked ancient engines/reactors.

Fyron

March 16th, 2002, 09:02 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Ability 2 Type := Planet - Change Ground Defense
Ability 2 Descr := The focused energy of people learning to use the Force protects the planet from Attack. Adds 10% to Ground Defense.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 10
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0<hr></blockquote>
Have you tested to see if this actually works? Last I heard, it didn't work as a racial trait, and I don't know if it works for a facility.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Name := Spec-Ops System HQ II
Ability 1 Type := System Point Generation Modifier - Intelligence
Ability 1 Descr := Increase all intelligence generation in a system by 40% (only 1 facility per system effective).
Ability 1 Val 1 := 45
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0<hr></blockquote>
The description is wrong here, and for the other levels of Spec-Ops.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Ability 2 Type := Solar Resource Generation - Organics
Ability 2 Descr := Generates 300 organics per star each turn.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 300
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Solar Resource Generation - Radioactives
Ability 3 Descr := Generates 300 radioactives per star each turn.
Ability 3 Val 1 := 300
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0<hr></blockquote>
Every facility from Crystalline Restructuring Plant I to Mercenary Fleet Academy VI got either one or both of these abilities added to them.

Deflector Shields VI yields both Projective Planetary Shields I and Planetary Shield Generator VI.

Also, is it really necessary to have 7 abilities listed for every single facility? That makes the file a lot larger than it needs to be.

Suicide Junkie

March 16th, 2002, 10:38 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr>SJ please take a look at the combat, comps and facility pics and see about merging with the pic mod. Please correct me if I used some pic num that was already used.<hr></blockquote>Components will fit in OK.
The pink facility, #191, will have to move to #241
The torps will have to start at #121, instead of #81

I think all of the beams are already in the imagemod, but start at #101
Also, a number of those beams still need to be fixed: See the test beam image (#30). The red box is the tip of the beam, and the green box is the area tiled to form a beam behind the tip.

The second & third rows of your file's new beams have many images with almost no color in the areas that SE4 actually uses.

==============

PS: I'm getting an "Internal Server Error" when trying to download the facilities zip.

I also need to confirm the credits for the new images.

[ 16 March 2002: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

Andr�s

March 17th, 2002, 01:28 AM

I’m uploading updated files right now.

Imperator Fyron,
The 7 abilities in every entry is because of the XLS I use for editing. If at least 1 facility has a 7th ability, I need to add a column for it and add the lines in to every entry.
If you look at components.txt, you’ll find that each component has the lines for 3 tech req, 6 abilities, and all weapon lines in non-weapon components.
The game doesn’t have problems with that, and the only effect will be usage of a little more HD space (BTW those repeated lines can be compressed more, and are only slightly larger when zipped). If needed I could take the time to replace those redundant lines, but it takes some time and benefits of doing that are minimal.

The repeated abilities bug seems to be related with some format error in the XLS. It is completely harmless since abilities number in all facilities is correct, and a 2nd ability in a facility that is supposed to have only 1 will be ignored.
I revised the files to clean those errors.

BTW, I think I copied that from your files, Imperator Fyron, but Industrial Replicators have number of ablilites:=1 but have 7 listed abilities, that means the game will ignore Last 6. Should I correct that?

Thanks for pointing the error in the “Spec-Ops System HQs” I was playing with values and forgot to update the descriptions.

Planet - Change Ground Defense
It doesn’t work? I didn’t know that. SJ can you confirm?
That facility was made by Bearclaw, I’ll tell him by email.

Suicide Junkie,
Actually that beam pic was copied from an old Version of the B5 mod and I didn’t touch or use and of them. Just ignore that file, I’ll replace it with Last imagemod.

I’ve corrected the facility and comp pictures and related data files that called those pics.

Suicide Junkie

March 17th, 2002, 01:37 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr>I’ve corrected the facility and comp pictures and related data files that called those pics.<hr></blockquote>That would explain the internal error message.

I just need to confirm the credits.

Fyron

March 17th, 2002, 05:33 AM

Andr�s:
About the extra lines, I guess it really doesn't matter that much.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>BTW, I think I copied that from your files, Imperator Fyron, but Industrial Replicators have number of ablilites:=1 but have 7 listed abilities, that means the game will ignore Last 6. Should I correct that?<hr></blockquote>
Yes.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Planet - Change Ground Defense
It doesn’t work? I didn’t know that. SJ can you confirm?
That facility was made by Bearclaw, I’ll tell him by email.<hr></blockquote>
I didn't say it wouldn't work. I meant I am not sure if it will work or not. Somebody should test it first before you go and remove it. I think I'll set up a test game to see if it works or not.

Fyron

March 17th, 2002, 06:14 AM

Ok, I just finished my test. "Planet - Change Ground Defense" definitely does not do anything.

--------------------------------------------------

Scenario 1

Attacker: 450 Large Troops

Defender: 72 LT + 240 Militia

Results

Test 1:
Attacker: 387 LT survive
Defender: 0
Rounds: 3

Test 2:
Attacker: 384 LT
Defender: 0
Rounds: 3

Test 3:
Attacker: 384 LT
Defender: 0
Rounds: 3

--------------------------------------------------

Scenario 2

Attacker: 450 LT

Defender: 72 LT + 240 Militia, Ground Base (+500% ground defense)

Test 1:
Attacker: 383 LT
Defender: 0
Rounds: 3

Test 2:
Attacker: 384 LT
Defender: 0
Rounds: 3

Test 3:
Attacker: 384 LT
Defender: 0
Rounds: 3

Andr�s

March 17th, 2002, 05:14 PM

If it doesn't work does not mean I have to remove it, it could be corrected sometime, just don't count on it as the primary function of the facility.

Fyron

March 17th, 2002, 08:44 PM

Then you should put a warning in the description for those facilities that says that the ability does not currently function.

Andr�s

March 20th, 2002, 04:46 PM

Station-like Planets
In the research I'm making for the SW map, I found many examples where Space Stations or Orbital Cities (Ithor, Duro, ect.) are as or more important in population and production than the planet they orbit.

What about adding a few new planets with station like pictures (and probably new planet sizes)?

What about other stations such as the B5, Spacedock and the DS9?
IMHO most important sci-fi stations can be better represented like a planet size than like a vehicle size.

To be able to build them we'd just need the ability to build an artificial planet without a star in the center.

Val

March 21st, 2002, 06:44 AM

I like the idea, especially since it would allow us to have populations on the stations rather than just troops and civilians in cryo storage http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I imagine they would be pretty small though - though this would make the building of a station more of a long term event, trying to get all the 'bits' in place to be assembled.

TerranC

March 23rd, 2002, 11:45 PM

* Bumpity bump bump *

Val

March 29th, 2002, 11:40 PM

Question for all who are working on this:

Working on modding the AI in the B5 mod and running into some problmes. Chiefly they are not putting engines on the ship, and so are not building any ships.

How have you gotten the AI to use the Trek Nacelles and other QN engines that are not the standard Ion-etc. engines? Do you have to keep the family the same for some reason (ie, not change the number)?

Any help would be welcome http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Phoenix-D

March 30th, 2002, 01:21 AM

IIRC the AI will pick whatever engine gives it the most thrust. Period. In other words, if you have a 100kt engine that gives 4 thrust, the AI will pick it over a 1kt engine that gives 3.

Phoenix-D

Val

April 14th, 2002, 05:19 AM

Though the various engine sizes were cool and fun for human players, the AI side of things was way too much trouble!

Reactors and Engines are now totally revised and we are now working on the AI to use the Mod specific technology. It seems to be working pretty well so far (AI has actually beaten me in my most recent test, though being hemmed by nebula did not help my early game) and we are hoping to have some racial AIs soon.

The question I have now is, what's the status on the overall X-Over mod?

Andr�s

April 15th, 2002, 01:02 AM

I've been looking a little to the B5 mod you seem to have finished with most of the data and have the AI progressing well.

I've been a little distracted lately and haven't progressed much.
I'll have to compile what I have (that has changed since Last time I uploaded it to my site) and post it again.

Karel

April 22nd, 2002, 08:13 PM

hello Crossovers,

What is the releasedate for your excellent MOD (especially the SW-part of the mod).

ts22

May 2nd, 2002, 05:10 PM

Hi, I was wondering if anyone knows when this mod is going to be completed? I've been looking forward to it for awhile so hopefully it's almost done (please!).

jimbob

May 3rd, 2002, 12:49 AM

I'm wondering if anyone has made Astromech droids for the Sci-Fi X-over mod yet (you know, R2-D2 and friends). I've made some up, they help the fighter pilot target enemies, can "repair" fighters that are damaged, can be programmed to cook eggs over-easy... basically everything from the SW movies.

Who wants 'em?

Andr�s

May 3rd, 2002, 05:15 AM

Yeah Astromech Droids are in the plan.
Fighters cannot be partially damaged, and cannot jump warp points. So there'd no point in giving R2s their main function as mechanics and navi-comps.
So I was considering using them as fighter sensors/ecm and shield regenerators.

Maybe I can also make an "Astromech Droid Bay" or something like that for capital ships.

jimbob

May 3rd, 2002, 12:13 PM

Okay, that's good.
Always liked R2-D2, and the presence of droids is integral to the feel of SW (versus ST with mega/centralized computers... very communist in my opinion http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

The "repair" function. Yeah, it's too bad that repair can't happen, so thus the quotes. I just put in a modest armor value and added an increased supply useage. Thus the appearance that the component "repairs" the fighter.

If you'd like, I could post what I've done to date. I ended up with 6 astromech droids total.

[ 03 May 2002: Message edited by: jimbob ]

Andr�s

May 9th, 2002, 07:59 PM

Sorry for the long time since I Last posted something here.
I'm currently doing most of this by myself and other projects and games distracted me.

I've upgraded everything to Gold Version 1.69.
Due to the many requests of a gold sw-mod and that most of us have gold Version or are planning to have it soon.
And beacuse I want to use some of the new features in gold.

If there is demand once we have everything working, we may release a pre-gold Version.

Although there are hundreds of things to add the core and most Rebel and Imperial techs are working.

No AI work has been done yet, but I made all AI races use "Standard Space Empires IV tech" so you should be able to play against them while testing.

I have it in my hard drive but I haven't uploaded any files yet.

I want a few opinions on the best way to do it.

I like the format used in the B5 mod: one small file with all text files, and another big file with all bitmaps and sounds.

Do you want me to include all shiptets?

What about sounds?
In gold the number and size of sounds is increased, and they are still not treated like bitmaps, going to the default dir if it isn't included in the mod. (this would be a nice request for next patch)
Options are:
a- don't use any new sound
b- copy all default sounds into the mod as we used. only difference is that the resulting file will be heavier and take longer to download.
c- include only the new sounds, players would have to manually copy the files into the mod. (perhaps we can include a .bat or small program to automate this)
d- put the new sounds in the default sound dir and not in the mod directory. This was done with one sound in the devnull/moster mod. This would make uninstalling the mod more difficult.

Still in my to do list
*Add extra pics for rebel ships
*Add/change pics for some components
*Add fighter bay requirements to most capital ships
*Add bases
*should we implement base-planets as I had suggested in a previous post? If we do, how many facilities, cargo space and pop should they have?
*trade fed/sith empire/vong neutrals
*another ~100 things I cannot recall right now

About the ship sizes. I had made a set of custom vehicle sizes for each race.
And I had heard some conplains telling me to make this ship bigger and that other one smaller.

Well, the main objective of these ship sizes is to show the CONTRAST in ship sizes used by different races (and different sci-fis).
All of these sizes are based on their known or estimated "real" tonnage, scaled according a variable scale to make logical SE4 sizes. (I'd included XLS file showing the scaling in the old downloads)
Altering the size of one hull would disrupt RELATIVE sizes when compared to other races ships.
So I don't want to change any of the ship sizes unless:
a- There is a mistake in their estimated "real" tonnage
b- We change the parameters of the variable scale, what would alter the size of most of the ships.

Note that there is no problem in adding or removing a hull size, as long as ships are added according the scale. I think that many races do need more sizes.

Those who were asking about a trek mod or the trek part of this mod.
You said you'd be able to work on the data files but not on the graphics.
Either you choose to work directly for this mod, or make an independent mod to be merged with this one later, my advice would be to concentrate on that, and just use the available pics.
Pictures can be added later, changing pic nums in the data files isn't hard and it can even be done while single player games are in progress without problems. If there none of the existing pics fits a particular component (or facility ect.) then providing 1 or 2 pics wouldn't be too hard.

Val

May 9th, 2002, 08:13 PM

Another option would be to include the shipsets as a 3rd file we could d/l - so people who already have them can just download what they need.

I liked the station (mini-mini-ringworld) idea and I am actually currently working on them for the B5 Mod. Mostly because I would like to see stations that can do research, intel, etc.. I'll let you know how it goes:)

Wher you able to easily convert the B5 stuff into Gold?

Sounds - those do take a LOT of space, more than seems right... I for one wouldn't mind downloading the extra sounds, but someone with a 56k connection might.

Vehicle Sizes - I don't see any problems with it, just need to add a few more for variety.

I know there has been a LOT of talk about a trek mod, but which 'age' would you do? Or would you try to include it all as a natural progression?

Can't wait to see it!!!!

Andr�s

May 10th, 2002, 05:38 AM

Files:
Ok what about these files
1-TXTs
2-Component/Facility/GameBitmaps
3-ShipsetBitmaps
4-Sounds
Would it be too complicated for a non-computer-literate player to have to repeat the install process 4 times?

No I didn't attempt to convert anything from the B5 mod yet.
It shouldn't be too hard, and it would be nice to test them together.

But IIRC there are details that need to be revised/edited before merging. Such as tech areas with repeated names and adding a Boarding Defense to the appropriate components to make Ion Cannons (sw) work.

You're using excel/word to merge the files, right? It would be easier if you can post or email me those files.

Mini-ringworld station:
We still have the star requirement (a problem to create many orbital cities around a planet)
Probably different techs will lead to different small artifical planets used by different races in B5/SW/ST

Sounds:
That's right standard sounds are 15Mb plus another 12Mb if you want to include the "old sounds" option. Didn't check how much compressed but I doubt they can be compressed more than 50%.

If we use a traditional approach we'd need to include all them plus new sounds.
That's why I was asking which alternative was best.

Vehicle Sizes:
I totally agree, most B5 ships I had added (even those that were used for smaller ships in the shipsets) look too big, they definitely need smaller ships.
I'd like to add more sizes but I don't know enough about B5 and ST to find the right ones.

Trek:
I'm not working in the trek part.
Natural progression would be cool.
I don't know enough about ST to even know if it's possible to make a believable tech tree to reflect this evolution through the different eras.

Val

May 10th, 2002, 11:53 PM

Sounds easy enough to me.

In fact, on the alternate B5 Mod page, the D/Ls are broken into 12 different zips plus updates!

But, I know a lot of people had trouble with that, so I changed it to the current format. I think 4 may be a good medium:)

Andr�s

May 23rd, 2002, 05:42 PM

Nothing new since my Last post.
I didn't upload the files I was talking about.
Now I can't login with my FTP program an I'm waiting for an answe from host.

In the meantime, jimbob can you post or send me the data files for your astromech droids?
I'll see if they fit with the other techs and include them.

jimbob

May 24th, 2002, 03:45 AM

Ok, here are the droids as I've made 'em. I made the attack bonuses to match the P&N mod, so they might need some balancing for the Sci-Fi mod [edit - plus they are designed for a QN movement system]. The droids replace cockpit, because the pilot will still need air etc. Finally, I introduced the tech area "miniaturization" as a pre-requisite. Critique and mod away!

Name := R1:D1 Astromech Droid
Description := A multifunctional, modular robotic computercore designed to assist fighterpilots in combat
Pic Num := 122
Tonnage Space Taken := 1
Tonnage Structure := 4
Cost Minerals := 3
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 25
Vehicle Type := Fighter
Supply Amount Used := 2
Restrictions := One Per Vehicle
General Group := Vehicle Control
Family := 6100
Roman Numeral := 1
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 2
Tech Area Req 1 := Computers
Tech Level Req 1 := 1
Tech Area Req 2 := Miniaturization
Tech Level Req 2 := 2
Number of Abilities := 3
Ability 1 Type := Ship Bridge
Ability 1 Descr := Replaces most of the fighter's computer components, making the cockpit mass negligible.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 0
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Armor
Ability 2 Descr := Astromech units can repair some of the damage (4 pts) done to their fighter.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 0
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Combat To Hit Offense Plus
Ability 3 Descr := Gives a 4% attack bonus in combat.
Ability 3 Val 1 := 4
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0
Weapon Type := None

Name := R1:D2 Astromech Droid
Description := A multifunctional, modular robotic computercore designed to assist fighterpilots in combat
Pic Num := 122
Tonnage Space Taken := 1
Tonnage Structure := 6
Cost Minerals := 3
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 25
Vehicle Type := Fighter
Supply Amount Used := 2
Restrictions := One Per Vehicle
General Group := Vehicle Control
Family := 6100
Roman Numeral := 2
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 2
Tech Area Req 1 := Computers
Tech Level Req 1 := 2
Tech Area Req 2 := Miniaturization
Tech Level Req 2 := 2
Number of Abilities := 3
Ability 1 Type := Ship Bridge
Ability 1 Descr := Replaces most of the fighter's computer components, making the cockpit mass negligible.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 0
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Armor
Ability 2 Descr := Astromech units can repair some of the damage (6 pts) done to their fighter.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 0
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Combat To Hit Offense Plus
Ability 3 Descr := Gives a 7% attack bonus in combat.
Ability 3 Val 1 := 7
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0
Weapon Type := None

Name := R1:D3 Astromech Droid
Description := A multifunctional, modular robotic computercore designed to assist fighterpilots in combat
Pic Num := 122
Tonnage Space Taken := 1
Tonnage Structure := 8
Cost Minerals := 3
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 30
Vehicle Type := Fighter
Supply Amount Used := 2
Restrictions := One Per Vehicle
General Group := Vehicle Control
Family := 6100
Roman Numeral := 3
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 2
Tech Area Req 1 := Computers
Tech Level Req 1 := 3
Tech Area Req 2 := Miniaturization
Tech Level Req 2 := 2
Number of Abilities := 3
Ability 1 Type := Ship Bridge
Ability 1 Descr := Replaces most of the fighter's computer components, making the cockpit mass negligible.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 0
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Armor
Ability 2 Descr := Astromech units can repair some of the damage (8 pts) done to their fighter.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 0
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Combat To Hit Offense Plus
Ability 3 Descr := Gives a 10% attack bonus in combat.
Ability 3 Val 1 := 10
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0
Weapon Type := None

Name := R2:D1 Astromech Droid
Description := A multifunctional, modular robotic computercore designed to assist fighterpilots in combat
Pic Num := 122
Tonnage Space Taken := 1
Tonnage Structure := 4
Cost Minerals := 5
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 40
Vehicle Type := Fighter
Supply Amount Used := 12
Restrictions := One Per Vehicle
General Group := Vehicle Control
Family := 6100
Roman Numeral := 4
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 3
Tech Area Req 1 := Computers
Tech Level Req 1 := 1
Tech Area Req 2 := Miniaturization
Tech Level Req 2 := 3
Tech Area Req 3 := Propulsion
Tech Level Req 3 := 3
Number of Abilities := 4
Ability 1 Type := Ship Bridge
Ability 1 Descr := Replaces most of the fighter's computer components, making the cockpit mass negligible.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 0
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Armor
Ability 2 Descr := Astromech units can repair some of the damage (4 pts) done to their fighter.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 0
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Combat To Hit Offense Plus
Ability 3 Descr := Gives a 4% attack bonus in combat.
Ability 3 Val 1 := 4
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0
Ability 4 Type := Standard Ship Movement
Ability 4 Descr := R2-D1 astromech droids can boost the fighter engine output, but at considerable expense.
Ability 4 Val 1 := 2
Ability 4 Val 2 := 0
Weapon Type := None

Name := R2:D2 Astromech Droid
Description := A multifunctional, modular robotic computercore designed to assist fighterpilots in combat
Pic Num := 122
Tonnage Space Taken := 1
Tonnage Structure := 6
Cost Minerals := 5
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 40
Vehicle Type := Fighter
Supply Amount Used := 15
Restrictions := One Per Vehicle
General Group := Vehicle Control
Family := 6100
Roman Numeral := 5
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 3
Tech Area Req 1 := Computers
Tech Level Req 1 := 2
Tech Area Req 2 := Miniaturization
Tech Level Req 2 := 3
Tech Area Req 3 := Propulsion
Tech Level Req 3 := 6
Number of Abilities := 4
Ability 1 Type := Ship Bridge
Ability 1 Descr := Replaces most of the fighter's computer components, making the cockpit mass negligible.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 0
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Armor
Ability 2 Descr := Astromech units can repair some of the damage (6 pts) done to their fighter.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 0
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Combat To Hit Offense Plus
Ability 3 Descr := Gives a 7% attack bonus in combat.
Ability 3 Val 1 := 7
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0
Ability 4 Type := Standard Ship Movement
Ability 4 Descr := R2-D2 astromech droids can boost the fighter engine output, but at considerable expense.
Ability 4 Val 1 := 4
Ability 4 Val 2 := 0
Weapon Type := None

Name := R2:D3 Astromech Droid
Description := A multifunctional, modular robotic computercore designed to assist fighterpilots in combat
Pic Num := 122
Tonnage Space Taken := 1
Tonnage Structure := 8
Cost Minerals := 5
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 45
Vehicle Type := Fighter
Supply Amount Used := 20
Restrictions := One Per Vehicle
General Group := Vehicle Control
Family := 6100
Roman Numeral := 6
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 3
Tech Area Req 1 := Computers
Tech Level Req 1 := 3
Tech Area Req 2 := Miniaturization
Tech Level Req 2 := 3
Tech Area Req 3 := Propulsion
Tech Level Req 3 := 10
Number of Abilities := 4
Ability 1 Type := Ship Bridge
Ability 1 Descr := Replaces most of the fighter's computer components, making the cockpit mass negligible.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 0
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Armor
Ability 2 Descr := Astromech units can repair some of the damage (8 pts) done to their fighter.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 0
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Combat To Hit Offense Plus
Ability 3 Descr := Gives a 10% attack bonus in combat.
Ability 3 Val 1 := 10
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0
Ability 4 Type := Standard Ship Movement
Ability 4 Descr := R2-D3 astromech droids can boost the fighter engine output, but at considerable expense.
Ability 4 Val 1 := 6
Ability 4 Val 2 := 0
Weapon Type := None

[ May 24, 2002, 02:50: Message edited by: jimbob ]

jimbob

May 24th, 2002, 03:54 AM

In addition to the astromech droids, how about introducing fully automated fighters (a la Episode One). I've got a few tiny fighters made up, and I'm hoping to test them in P&N v.2.6. They seem to be pretty balanced, and would make excellent droid fighters (IMHO http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ).

If you'd like, I'll email them or post them here.

Andr�s

May 24th, 2002, 03:45 PM

I'm not completely convinced with your R2s but you gave some ideas.
I was planning to add droidfighters with the Trade Federation techs.

jimbob

May 25th, 2002, 02:38 AM

Regarding the R2s, I wanted to add a short term boost to movement, as occurred in the "trench run" on the death star (Episode iv I guess).

Do you not like the movement as combat movement, or is there too much combat movement added?

Unfortunately combat movement bonuses are not stackable, so I made the R2s to put out a significant amount of movement points to make up for the fact that afterburners would have no additional affect.

I was planning to add droidfighters with the Trade Federation techs.
Good! Are you going to make a fighter class that has no cockpit and/or life support requirement, or go the fighter sized master computer route?

Andr�s

May 26th, 2002, 08:41 AM

I've uploaded some of the files.
here (http://se4kdy.cyberwars.com/files/sci-fi-cross/index.htm)

Critics/comments about what's Online are welcome.

[ May 26, 2002, 07:46: Message edited by: Andr&eacutes Lescano ]

PDF

May 26th, 2002, 02:49 PM

Andr�s,
Yout site only has the "data" and graphics files, but not the races/sets nor sounds.
Do you have hosting problems - no space left ?

Andr�s

May 26th, 2002, 04:13 PM

No, I haven't uploaded those files yet.
They are too big and I'm using a slow modem.

Edit: All files should be up now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ May 27, 2002, 00:00: Message edited by: Andr&eacutes Lescano ]

Andr�s

May 28th, 2002, 06:12 AM

Ok you have some starting files Online.
Now, all of you who were asking me over and over "When will this mod be finished?" go download it, and report your oppinions.
BTW I have no answer for that Q, I've been advancing at a very irregular speed but with more people involved and more feedback it will sure be sooner.

I know there are many vital techs that I'm forgetting to include.
For example I see that I had made pics for Cargo and Med bays but never included those techs.
Help me make a list of all techs that need to be added. Or even better submit your own portions of data files (be sure to make them looking at the rest of this mod and not to work with standard data files).

jimbob, what do you think of the astromech droids I made?
I don't like them replacing the bridge, and after making up the engines/eng.permove system for sw fighters I didn't think that additional engine abilities would help.

Starting to write AI is also another important part.
Will AI ever use emergency propulsion? All starwars movements are based on an emergency propulsion "hyperdrive" and a special repair tool (can only be repaired by space yards) "hyperdrive motivator".
I really like how it works, ships are slower than other races using only sub-ligh drives and faster when using hyperdrives. And capital ships being slow in combat increases dependence on fighters and give an overall "star wars" feeling in combat.
If AI races don't use it, they will move very slowly and will be barely able to expand.

TerranC

May 28th, 2002, 06:40 AM

Just got the Scifi-Crossover; and I am impressed.

Incredible-godlike job http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Unless you have some sort of schedule going on or you have too much free time http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

But If you need help with the scifi project; I'm good at typing http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Andr�s

May 31st, 2002, 05:15 AM

<BUMP>

Val

May 31st, 2002, 04:39 PM

Andr�s, B5 Mod is getting much closer to finished:) What adjustments do we have to make to make it more compatable? Like for the ion weapons?

[ May 31, 2002, 16:22: Message edited by: Val ]

Andr�s

May 31st, 2002, 11:53 PM

No more comments?

TerranC:
It's not that I don't like the nice things you said, but I'd like some more useful comments.

I need Playtesters
Although they are not finished yet, Imperial and Rebel techs should be roughly playable by now. Give it a try and tell me your opinions.
My impression is that you start too slowly, and you'll be in trouble if you start too close to an aggressive enemy, but then you'll eventually catch up and have better techs in late game.
But I didn't playtest that much anyway. Can you confirm this? How do you suggest to fix it?
Is there a vital tech that you'd need and don't have? or just a sw tech that'd be cool to include?

I didn't even playtest The Force, that was included just as it was sent by Bearclaw. I know they were playtested on their own, but never in combination with other SW techs.

This has been proposed in the sw-map thread, as part of a scenario idea.
But how can we represent the virtually limitless resources and recruits of the Empire (at least before Endor) and the shortage of resources and personnel, and scattered secret bases of the Alliance. Without unbalancing the game too much of course.

I also need someone to help modding star systems. I have a list of a few funny systems I want to add to the appropriate files so they are included in random maps.
If there's any volunteer I'll post the list, I'm making while collecting data for the SW-map.
I also added B5 jump-gates and DS9-like wormholes as alternative warp point pictures. I wanted the random generator to mix the different types, but it seems to always use the first and ignore the others. Can anyone confirm? is there a workaround?

Val:
To make ion work we just need to add a boarding defense 1 ability to all bridges, shield regenerators and PDCs equivalents. That isn't too hard, and I could do it myself if necessary.

The most difficult part to merge B5 mod would be separating "Standard SE4 Tech" from "B5 Tech".
Players that select "Standard SE4 Tech" should get exactly the same that in the un-modded game.
B5 races should select "Bab 5 Tech" + their race specific racial trait.

Tech areas can be common to both (and all other races BTW), SE4 standard exclusive or B5 exclusive.

If it's going to be common, then it must keep Standard cost and max level.
Actual components/facilities/ect every one gets researching can be different by using a second tech req, but cost and max level cannot be changed.

More common tech areas were requested, to allow more tech capture.

I'm currently studying how to merge all ship construction into a shared standard.
Probably by adding a second tech area after highest ship construction, for those that have too many ship sizes, and leaving blank intermediate techs for those with too few (to be filled later?).

Val

June 1st, 2002, 05:05 AM

I'll work on adding the ion stuff as I am working on the EM weapons for the mod now anyway http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

The tech areas are much more capturable now, with the exception of the pure racial tech at the base level. Ancient tech is (for the most part) not capturable unless you are another B5 ancient race. Also added a few new racial traits - B5 Nomadic Race and B5 Standard Race, so many components now require one of these stats or another racial stat (such as Narn Race), so many of the components should be unavailable to a trek/star wars race until they capture/trade the tech.

Also working on adding a few more shipsets - Vree and Drazi are in the works.

Later!

jimbob

June 2nd, 2002, 12:49 AM

Andr�s:

I really like the droids you made. I agree that the movement boosting is problematic, as you can only add one "afterburner-like" device per fighter (well actually you can have as many as you want, but only the best one functions)

Four questions for you

1) The addition of one extra sheild is good, but what if the fighter doesn't have any sheilds normally? (that is, what if the rebel player makes fighters that are unsheilded... will the game still give them sheild points from the R-unit?)

2) I notice that the ratios of "Tonnage Space Taken" (TST) to "Tonnage Structure" (TS) is a linear relationship (R-1 1:3, R-2 1:4, etc.). But the R-1 actually has an "absolute" TST value of 2: TS 6. Because you can only put one Droid on a fighter the R-1 could still be better than the R-2 in some cases. Could the values be changed to TST=1 and TS=3?

3) What if the Empire, or a non-SW race wants to use droids on some of their fighters? It seems that many races could use droids, but simply choose not to. This is especially true of the Empire, who employ droids in other capacities, but simply do not choose to put them on their fighters... I would like to see this be a research & design choice on the part of the player if possible.

4) (assuming that you introduce a fully automated technology tree) For the trade federation and cylons... will there be fully automated droid/robot fighter systems? If so, will they be a general or specialized research branch?

The Force:
The Sith crew and force crew components... very cool. I like this a lot.

Dark Storm, could you make the weapon skip sheilds and armor? It seems to me that armor should confer no protection either (and it says so in the description). There is a "skip everything" weapon in SEIV, isn't there? Can you use it's ability type?

Dark Force Pilot, has a combat bonus. I don't think that this bonus is layerable with afterburners and the like. What if this was a straight movement bonus?

I only read over the component and other data files today, but the mod looks great! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif I'm really looking forward to the Sci-Fi X-over mod. Thanks for all your hard work Andr�s.

[ June 01, 2002, 23:52: Message edited by: jimbob ]

Andr�s

June 2nd, 2002, 06:52 AM

I found a mistake in TechArea.txt:
Droids' racial area should be 24 not 6 they were never available to anyone. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

That shows that I didn't attempt to test them in the game until now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Your questions
1)Shield regenerators should be useless without shields, but shouldn't hurt either. Now I doubt that they work in fighters at all.

2)R1s were supposed so large that they could be used in very few fighters. But I see your point. Maybe make them even larger or decrease their tonnage structure to 4.

3) My idea was to eventually add more stuff under the Droids research (listening ideas). That is why (once racial area is fixed) the tech are should be available to all SW races, but fighter R2s only to Rebels (Old/New Republic?)

4)Trade Federation should have many things under droids. Bettledroids, droid tanks, Droid fighters, (droid chairs? walking holoprojectors?) ect.
Cylons, if Battlestar Galactica races are ever added, should not have droids, that is a SW exclusive tech and I can't make them share a tech unless it's shared with everybody else, standard SE4, ST, B5.

5?)
The Force

You're right, Dark Storm and Force Lightning are described to skip shields and armor like standard Null-Space Projectors.
Perhaps they were "balanced" by "reducing" their damage type, and the description wasn't updated accoedingly. I'd have to ask Nick (Bearclaw)
I feel storms should be more "super-weapon" like, much more damage, and a virtually indestructible seeker, but of course larger and with longer reload time.

BTW there is no other weapon that uses the Skips All Shields damage type.

Phoenix-D

June 19th, 2002, 03:33 AM

How are the mods progressing? I think I'll be doing a Honor Harringon mod, but I need information on the other mods so I can keep the numbers sane. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Phoenix-D

Phoenix-D

June 19th, 2002, 09:16 PM

All riiiight, no comments.. then again the Trek mod and B5 mod threads are there so I'll just check those.

Urendi Maleldil

September 26th, 2002, 06:46 PM

Has anyone done anything with this mod lately?

Andr�s

September 26th, 2002, 10:04 PM

Sorry I've been a little distracted lately.
I hope to come back to this mod soon.

jimbob

September 27th, 2002, 05:24 AM

Hey, I'd love to help with the X-over mod. I'm a little bummed out that the ST:NG mod is in limbo, but I've offered to help with it. My biggest hope is to bring it into the X-over mod so that we can finally have things like the Enterprise-D vs. Grand Admiral Thrawn's flag ship, etc.

Harrington, B5, ST:NG, SW, the monsters from Oleg and friends... what else would there be to add?

Edit: Oh, nevermind, Cpt. Kwok is gonna make ST:NG happen... so maybe I'm freer than I thought! Yeah Kwok!

[ September 27, 2002, 04:26: Message edited by: jimbob ]

Erax

October 2nd, 2002, 12:58 AM

Originally posted by Andr&eacutes Lescano:

I need Playtesters
Although they are not finished yet, Imperial and Rebel techs should be roughly playable by now. Give it a try and tell me your opinions.
Hi there,
Andres and everyone else who's been working on this project, thanks for creating such a great mod. I've been playing with it and here's what I've found :

- The descriptions for the TIE fighter bays II and greater are incorrect - they all read 30 kt of cargo when in fact they are bigger;

- Some racial AI files are not updated to patch 1.79 : Gaim, Grome, Hurr, Llort, Markab and Yolu;

- Computers is a prerequisite for some SW tech, so it cannot be racial tech area 6;

- Droids should be racial tech area 24, not 6;

- The Empire (haven't played the Rebellion yet) needs troops, transports and cargo rather badly.

I've designed a troop + troop weapon scheme for the Empire and the Rebellion, if you're interested I can post it here. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Andr�s

October 2nd, 2002, 04:23 PM

Thanks for the pointing out some of the mistakes and things that are still to be added such as troops.
Now I’m planning a major redesign with many more common of tech areas.
I will make most standard SE4 technologies, except most weapon techs and other punctual techs, available to everyone. But make most those techs give everyone different items.

For example the current layout was giving standardSE4 the standard "Shields" technologies, starwars races one called "Deflector Shields", b5 races nothing, and startrek races some other (insert appropriate techno-babble name here) shielding technology.
Those tech areas would be only researchable by the specific races but tradable/stealable, by having an exclusive pre-requisite. (this format can still be suitable for some technologies that will not be common to most genres such as weapons, and there may still be some technologies that are so alien that cannot be traded)

My Last idea is making the standard "shields" technology available for everyone, but with each component having a second tech requirement, so researching the same tradable/analyzable tech "StandardSE4" will get standard and phased shields, trekkies their leaky shields (that due to their probably high regeneration should not be inferior to standard shields), starwars races their Version of shields, and B5ers probably nothing (they can probably want to research it for trades or perhaps we can find some auxiliary fancy component that can be somehow related to the concept of shields to place here).
IIRC this was suggested in the forums quoting something that happened in some star trek episode.
If say a trek race manages to capture a starwars ships with more advanced shields and analyzes it, they will get not a low Version of starwars shields, but a more advanced Version of their own "leaky" shields.

Can you help me fill in documents like [this one] (http://se4kdy.cyberwars.com/files/sci-fi-cross/imperialtechs.doc) for other races to have most of the techs that will be needed.

Erax

October 2nd, 2002, 11:11 PM

Originally posted by Andr&eacutes Lescano:
Thanks for the pointing out some of the mistakes and things that are still to be added such as troops. [...]

I will make most standard SE4 technologies, except most weapon techs and other punctual techs, available to everyone. But make most those techs give everyone different items. [...]

Can you help me fill in documents like [this one] (http://se4kdy.cyberwars.com/files/sci-fi-cross/imperialtechs.doc) for other races to have most of the techs that will be needed.Having the different tech trees interact with each other (but still remain different) is a great idea. In fact, I was planning on doing exactly that for troops - at Troop level 3 (out of 5 total), for example, the Imperials get speederbikes and the Rebels get elite Rebel troopers (troops with more kt for the Imperials and troops with bonuses to attack+defense for the Rebels). Troop weapons would start at level 1 (bLaster pistols) and go up to level 8 (dual heavy bLaster cannon), with all SW races except the YV having access to the same weapons. I have the numbers worked out & can send them to you or post them here.

Regarding tech lists for other races... I'm a SW fan too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I could give you some suggestions regarding Imperial items and help write the Rebellion & Trade Federation/Separatists tech lists... now that Ep II is out, we could even add in the Republic as a player race (Naboo tech + clone troopers + Jedi, wow !), but I can't really help with ST or B5.

I'll study the Imperial tech list & post my comments here.

"Dispatch war rocket Ajax to bring back his body !"
-- General Kala

Andr�s

October 3rd, 2002, 04:50 PM

Standard SE4 should have no visible difference to the stock game, and tech areas shared by everyone must be shared by them too.
That means (edit: we cannot add any new tech area to be shared by everyone and) that top tech for standard/shared techs must not change: Troops
max = 3 ; Troop Weapons max=3

For techs such as ship construction I was planning to add and aditional tech at top level such as "Advanced Imperial Ship Construction" for their beyond normal ships.
Perhaps we can do the same for troops, for example Imperials get "Walkers" at troops 3.
And bLasters may have troop weapon + turbolaser tech requirents.

Now weapon mounts can be restricted by techs I want to remake laser weapons and make dual and quad (and perhaps even batteries) actual weapons mounts. If they can capture other's weapons they could reconfigure them to their weapon mounts, imagine a "Mrk 5 Phaser" in "Quad Heavy Battery Mount" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

[ October 04, 2002, 04:49: Message edited by: Andr&eacutes Lescano ]

Erax

October 3rd, 2002, 11:04 PM

OK, I just finished reading the Imperial tech list, here's my comments+suggestions.

I agree with almost all of your interpretations, what follows are the exceptions and not the rule... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

- We could make Imperial shipyards decrease happiness in the entire system (they were described as a huge drain to the economy), but this has to be tested so we don't paralyze the Empire in the early game.

- Your Version of the Imp. Garrison sounds like something I'd want to build on many worlds, but I wouldn't really need that many spaceports. Why not make Imperial Urban Pac Centers planet-wide only (with an expensive-to-research system-wide Version later in the tech tree), give them a little cargo capacity and call them Imperial Garrisons ? We could build troops and keep them "in" the garrisons.

- Don't worry about building the DSII in six months, that was the Emperor's personal project and he had Vader to hurry it along too. We won't be able to simulate that in SE IV any time soon (Mega-Emergency Build ?). We could still give the Imperials bigger shipyards so they can crank out ISD's, maybe they might have to research Ship Yards and Large Scale Construction to get them.

- I'm designing the Beta-class assault shuttle and the Zero-G Stormtrooper right now, I'll post them when I'm done.

- Please, please give us the Star Wing gunboat and the Missile boat ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

- I think the AT-PT was a Republic era weapon. The sequence for Imperial troops could be : Naval Troopers, Stormtroopers, Speederbikes, then (under the Walkers tech tree) AT-PTs, AT-STs, AT-ATs. I'll post my stats for troops and troop weapons & we can go on from there.

- Careful with the mines, they're a major part of standard SE IV game balance. Laser-satellite 'mines' would get lumped together in combat and become ineffective.

- I'd leave out the solar panels, reactors already fill this role. Besides, as you said, TIEs are supposed to be short range craft.

- Imperial boarding parties could be called "Stormtrooper Boarding Squads" and have a little cargo capacity so you could actually carry troop units "in" them (I'll work on the numbers for this & for regular cargo bays, will post them later too).

Hope it helps.

Andr�s

October 4th, 2002, 05:51 AM

Updated the doc (http://se4kdy.cyberwars.com/files/sci-fi-cross/imperialtechs.doc)

Fyron

October 4th, 2002, 06:56 AM

Originally posted by Erax:
- We could make Imperial shipyards decrease happiness in the entire system (they were described as a huge drain to the economy), but this has to be tested so we don't paralyze the Empire in the early game.
Negative values of happiness on facilities do not work. And happiness modifiers do not stack: the highest one in the entire system is used for all planets in the system.

Andr�s

October 4th, 2002, 08:24 PM

Copied from abilities.txt
Planet - Change Population Happiness
Value1 = Percentage the happiness of this planet's population is improved each turn.
Value2 =

Change Population Happiness - System
Value1 = Percentage change in population happiness for entire system (+/- percentage) each turn.
Value2 =
Didn't check if it actually works this way but this suggests you can give a happiness penalty to the entire system but not to a single planet.

I was planning to give most of the Imperial happiness penalties by making them use a special happiness type.
But this could be a good choice to balance their best shipyards: build faster or stick with the regular ones to avoid making the population even angrier.

Erax

October 4th, 2002, 11:11 PM

I was planning to give most of the Imperial happiness penalties by making them use a special happiness type.
But this could be a good choice to balance their best shipyards: build faster or stick with the regular ones to avoid making the population even angrier.
We have to check if negative system happiness actually works and, if it does, what happens when you build a facility that increases happiness in the same system.

Moving on a bit, I promised to post a lot of stuff, so here goes the Assault Shuttle and 0-G Stormtrooper for the Imperials :

Name := Assault Shuttle
Short Name := Assault Shuttle
Description := Beta-class assault shuttle
Code := AS
Primary Bitmap Name := transportsmall
Alternate Bitmap Name := transportsmall
Vehicle Type := Ship
Tonnage := 74
Cost Minerals := 74
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 0
Engines Per Move := 1
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Imperial Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 1 := 1
Number of Abilities := 1
Ability 1 Type := Combat To Hit Defense Plus
Ability 1 Descr := Small size makes ship 50% harder to hit in combat.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 50
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Requirement Must Have Bridge := True
Requirement Can Have Aux Con := False
Requirement Min Life Support := 1
Requirement Min Crew Quarters := 0
Requirement Uses Engines := True
Requirement Max Engines := 4
Requirement Pct Fighter Bays := 0
Requirement Pct Colony Mods := 0
Requirement Pct Cargo := 0

Name := Zero-G Stormtrooper
Short Name := Spacetrooper
Description :=
Code := 0-G
Primary Bitmap Name := troopInfantry
Alternate Bitmap Name := troopInfantry
Vehicle Type := Fighter
Tonnage := 2
Cost Minerals := 12
Cost Organics := 15
Cost Radioactives := 0
Engines Per Move := 8
Number of Tech Req := 2
Tech Area Req 1 := Imperial Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 1 := 1
Tech Area Req 2 := Troops
Tech Level Req 2 := 3
Number of Abilities := 1
Ability 1 Type := Combat To Hit Defense Plus
Ability 1 Descr := Small size makes spacetrooper 120% harder to hit in combat.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 120
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Requirement Must Have Bridge := False
Requirement Can Have Aux Con := False
Requirement Min Life Support := 0
Requirement Min Crew Quarters := 0
Requirement Uses Engines := True
Requirement Max Engines := 1
Requirement Pct Fighter Bays := 0
Requirement Pct Colony Mods := 0
Requirement Pct Cargo := 0
Launched from Ship := True
Launched from Planet := False

Neither is playtested yet... I have to see if the 120% defense bonus for the spacetrooper is excessive.

Fyron

October 5th, 2002, 03:06 AM

Negative happiness modifiers on facilities DO NOT work. I have tested it already.

If you have 2 facilities that modify happiness, then the one with the highest bonus is applied, and the others are ignored. Even if the negative value worked, building 1 facility with even a 1% bonus would cancel it out.

[ October 05, 2002, 02:08: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

jimbob

October 5th, 2002, 04:31 AM

I was planning to give most of the Imperial happiness penalties by making them use a special happiness type.I agree, probably the easiest way to give the Imperials unhappyness problems would be to give their race a large unhappiness modifier (as part of the cost of choosing "Imperial" in the racial traits screen), and then let 'em try to climb the ladder of public opinion.

This then is how I'd see it play out: they would have to expend a lot of efforts to improve the happiness level of their citizens. It will constrain their tech research early on, as they'll need to get troops right away, and then build enough to pacify their populations. Later with some nifty facilities they can actually make them moderately happy, and much later in the game, they might even be able to have a few extatic planets.

This may be a bit of a hobble in the early game, but many of the races are weak in the early game only to come out on top in the late game... this will just force the player to be ultra-political in the beginning (just like Palpatine come to think of it!) just to survive, but then he can settle his scores in the late game as he ascends to power.

just some thoughts,

[ October 05, 2002, 03:35: Message edited by: jimbob ]

jimbob

October 5th, 2002, 08:20 AM

Andr�s:

Forgive my ignorance, but I was trying the mod out tonight and had some troubles. I was playing the trade federation and had selected "starwars" and "trade federation" in the racial set up screen, but had a difficult time getting any ships (the few I had were enormous and I couldn't get any movement on them, nor could I find cargo components for them). Really I was limited to building colony ships.
Then for the droid fighters, all the engines I could get were too big to fit on the fighters...

Did I miss something here? Should I also select "space empired IV" in racial traits?

Sorry if my mistake is trivial, but any help would be great!

Andr�s

October 5th, 2002, 06:08 PM

1-Advanced Shipyards should simply lower planet value, IIRC many industrialized worlds are described to have been depeleted long ago of any valuable ores (sometimes this includes their moons and nearby planets)

2-Choosing Imperial technology traits but another happiness type such as peaceful of bloodthirsty should be considered cheating.
Perhaps they should start with the lowest infantry troops.
It should also be balanced with their colonizing advantages.

3-Trade federation techs are mostly incomplete, I was concentrating to finish first Imperials and Rebels.

Erax

October 6th, 2002, 02:06 AM

If negative happiness modifiers on facilities do not work, then some of the Dark Side facilities have to be redone.

There's one more thing to correct: the anti-fighter laser V has a structure of 1 kt when it should be 5 kt.

OK, on to more of the stuff I promised. Here's my Version of the Imperial and Rebel troops :

Imperial Troops I : Imperial Naval Troopers - 1 kt, 0 min/15 org/0 rad, no bridge required.
Imperial Troops II : Imperial Stormtroopers - 2 kt, 0 min/20 org/0 rad, no bridge required.
Imperial Troops III : Imperial Speederbikes - 5 kt, 30 min/20 org/5 rad, bridge required.
Walkers I : AT-PT - 8 kt, 80 min/20 org/8 rad, bridge required.
Walkers II : AT-ST - 10 kt, 100 min/30 org/10 rad, bridge required.
Walkers III : AT-AT - 20 kt, 200 min/60 org/20 rad, bridge required.

Rebel Troops I : Rebel Alliance Troopers - 1 kt, 0 min/15 org/0 rad, no bridge required.
Rebel Troops II : Veteran Rebel Troopers - 1 kt, 0 min/20 org/0 rad, no bridge required, +10 to hit, +15 defense.
Rebel Troops III : Elite Rebel Troopers - 2 kt, 0 min/25 org/0 rad, no bridge required, +20 to hit, +25 defense.
Rebel Vehicles I : Rebel Speederbikes - 5 kt, 30 min/25 org/5 rad, bridge required, +10 to hit, +15 defense.
Rebel Vehicles II : Rebel Landspeeders - 8 kt, 50 min/30 org/8 rad, bridge required, +10 to hit, +15 defense.
Rebel Vehicles III : Rebel Airspeeders - 8 kt, 80 min/40 org/10 rad, bridge required, +10 to hit, +30 defense.

And the troop weapons, which could be the same for all SW races :

I : BLaster Pistol - 1 kt, struct 0 kt, 10 min/0 org/1 rad, dam 1.
II : BLaster Rifle - 1 kt, struct 0 kt, 15 min/0 org/2 rad, dam 1/1.
III : Light Repeating BLaster - 1 kt, struct 0 kt, 20 min/0 org/3 rad, dam 2/2.

These first three are all infantry weapons. Beyond them, you could have a Heavy Troop Weapons tech area :

I : Heavy Repeating BLaster - 2 kt, struct 1 kt, 30 min/0 org/5 rad, dam 4/4/4.
II : Light BLaster Cannon - 3 kt, struct 2 kt, 40 min/0 org/6 rad, dam 6/6/6.
III : Heavy BLaster Cannon - 6 kt, struct 4 kt, 60 min/0 org/7 rad, dam 13/13/13.
IV : Dual Light BLaster Cannon - 5 kt, struct 4 kt, 70 min/0 org/10 rad, dam 12/12/12.
V : Dual Heavy BLaster Cannon - 10 kt, struct 8 kt, 100 min/0 org/12 rad, dam 26/26/26.

These Last two will probably become weapon mounts, following the proposed scheme for lasers. BLaster rifles, heavy repeating bLasters and heavy bLaster cannon could also become heavy mount Versions of their lighter counterparts.

Hope it helps.

Andr�s

October 6th, 2002, 04:58 PM

Thanks.
I'll add your stuff, and upload the mod right after I finish updating the tree to it's new shape.

Phoenix-D

October 12th, 2002, 06:40 PM

FYI on the shuttles- you can make a component that has both the bridge and crew quarters ability; that way the CQ doesn't take up any extra space.

Phoenix-D

Erax

October 13th, 2002, 01:16 AM

Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
FYI on the shuttles- you can make a component that has both the bridge and crew quarters ability; that way the CQ doesn't take up any extra space.
I thought about that, but then what's to stop the Empire from using it (and saving 10kt) on all of its other hull sizes ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Andr�s

October 13th, 2002, 01:35 AM

I knew about the crew quarters, I had added them when I copied the vehicle size and didn't notice the error.
I have already added a small cargo container, so you'll be able to carry troops anyway.
I made droid quarters that are CQ and LS but have to hit penalties.

I didn't know about the 0 damage thing, but most components have the same tonnage and tonnage structure, I see no problem in adding them.
Also your mechanized troops and weapons look terribly small and weak when compared to standard techs. Do we want all troops to be tiny and weak?

Phoenix-D

October 13th, 2002, 01:53 AM

"I thought about that, but then what's to stop the Empire from using it (and saving 10kt) on all of its other hull sizes"

Add another CQ requirment to everything else; problem solved. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Erax

October 13th, 2002, 01:59 AM

My playtest game has progressed to the point where I could actually invade a planet, and I've discovered that the stuff I've posted has a few bugs. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

The Assault Shuttle hull had a 0 crew quarters requirement, but this had some weird effects: the ship can be built with no CQ, but moves at 1/2 speed (I guess the code that gives ships penalties for battle damage is doing this). If you do give this Shuttle hull a CQ, then it moves faster than it's supposed to.

This means we're back to a 1 minimum CQ requirement for the Assault Shuttle, which in turn means I have to design a 10-kt 'passenger quarters' component so the Shuttle can actually be used to carry something. It could also be a 20-kt 'shuttle cargo bay' that acts as crew quarters too but is less efficient than standard cargo bays, so you'd use them only in small hulls... hmmm... I'll think about it and post the whole cargo thing later.

The other bug is with the troop weapons - I gave infantry weapons 0kt of structure (they're supposed to be weapons, not armor), but when I invaded a planet with 50 Naval Troopers armed with bLaster pistols I got a 'division by zero' error which locked the game. I guess troops can't have a structure of 0 - how obvious. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif

Here are the corrected values for troop weapon structure :

BLaster Pistol - 1kt
BLaster Rifle - 1kt
Light Repeating BLaster - 1kt
Heavy Repeating bLaster - 2kt
Light BLaster Cannon - 3kt
Heavy BLaster Cannon - 6kt
Dual Light BLaster Cannon - 6kt
Dual Heavy BLaster Cannon - 12kt

I'll let you know if any other bugs come up.

Erax

October 13th, 2002, 04:05 PM

Originally posted by Andr&eacutes Lescano:
I didn't know about the 0 damage thing, but most components have the same tonnage and tonnage structure, I see no problem in adding them.
Also your mechanized troops and weapons look terribly small and weak when compared to standard techs. Do we want all troops to be tiny and weak?I scaled them so that the AT-AT was as large as a SE IV large troop (20 kt). This equates things at the top end, but perhaps the other SW vehicles do become 'tiny and weak' as a result. Maybe the AT-AT should be 30kt ?

As for weapons, I started with the bLaster pistol having a damage of 1 and 'built up' from there. If you want SW troop weapons to be comparable to SE IV troop weapons, all of their damage values will have to be multiplied by about 2.5.

As a note of interest, 100 light infantry with bLaster pistols (in two waves of 50) were able to defeat 3 planetary militia with 40% losses in my playtest game.

Erax

October 13th, 2002, 05:03 PM

As for weapons, I started with the bLaster pistol having a damage of 1 and 'built up' from there. If you want SW troop weapons to be comparable to SE IV troop weapons, all of their damage values will have to be multiplied by about 2.5.OK, I compared damage/kt ratios for SW and a few SE IV troop weapons and here's what I came up with :

G.Cannon I - 3.33
G.Cannon II - 5.00
G.Cannon III - 6.67
Small DUC I - 1.67
Small DUC II - 3.33
Small DUC III - 5.00
Small APB I - 2.00 (range 1)
Small APB II - 3.00 (range 1)
Small APB III - 4.00 (range 1)

Pistol - 1.00
Rifle - 1.00
Lt Rpt - 2.00
Hv Rpt - 2.00
Lt Cannon - 2.00
Hv Cannon - 2.17
Dual Lt Cannon - 2.40
Dual Hv Cannon - 2.60

If we want SW troop weapons to be on the same scale as their SE IV counterparts, their damage values can be revised as follows (with the resulting damage/kt ratios in parentheses):

Pistol - 2 (2.00)
Rifle - 3/3 (3.00)
Lt Rpt - 4/4 (4.00)
Hv Rpt - 10/10 (5.00)
Lt Cannon - 16/16/16 (5.33)
Hv Cannon - 34/34/34 (5.67)
Dual Lt Cannon - 32/32/32 (6.40)
Dual Hv Cannon - 68/68/68 (6.80)

As a positive side effect, there is now a greater difference between the various infantry weapons. I reduced the heavy repeating bLaster's range by 1 so that now only bLaster cannon have a range of 3.

My stats for cargo bays and boarding parties are almost done - will post them here soon.

Erax

October 13th, 2002, 06:01 PM

OK, here are the stats for stormtrooper boarding parties and cargo bays for SW ships. I designed the stormtroopers to be slightly more efficient than SE IV space marines and the cargo bays to be a good deal less efficient (for some reason I feel SW ships are less cargo-efficient than standard SE IV ships):

Name := Stormtrooper Boarding Parties I/II/III/IV/V
Description := Imperial stormtroopers trained in boarding enemy ships and taking them over. Boarding parties can only capture ships which have no shields remaining.
Pic Num := 65
Tonnage Space Taken := 10
Tonnage Structure := 10
Cost Minerals := 200/250/300/350/400
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 0
Vehicle Type := Ship\Base
Supply Amount Used := 5
Restrictions := None
General Group := Weapons
Family := 2460
Roman Numeral := 1/2/3/4/5
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 3
Tech Area Req 1 := Ship Capture
Tech Level Req 1 := 1/2/3/4/5
Tech Area Req 2 := Imperial Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 2 := 1
Tech Area Req 3 := Troops
Tech Level Req 3 := 2
Number of Abilities := 2
Ability 1 Type := Boarding Attack
Ability 1 Descr := Provides 3/6/9/12/15 stormtrooper sections for boarding combat (all boarding parties on ship can be used for attack or defense).
Ability 1 Val 1 := 3/6/9/12/15
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Cargo Storage
Ability 2 Descr := Provides 6/12/18/24/30kT worth of cargo space.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 6/12/18/24/30
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Weapon Type := None

Name := Cargo Bay I/II/III
Description := Area on a starship where cargo can be housed.
Pic Num := 269
Tonnage Space Taken := 20
Tonnage Structure := 20
Cost Minerals := 120
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 0
Vehicle Type := Ship\Base
Supply Amount Used := 0
Restrictions := None
General Group := Cargo
Family := 9
Roman Numeral := 1/2/3
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 2
Tech Area Req 1 := Cargo
Tech Level Req 1 := 1/2/3
Tech Area Req 2 := Star Wars Technology
Tech Level Req 2 := 1
Number of Abilities := 1
Ability 1 Type := Cargo Storage
Ability 1 Descr := Provides 50/100/150kT worth of cargo space.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 50/100/150
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Weapon Type := None

Name := Small Cargo Bay
Description := Area on a starship where small amounts of cargo can be housed.
Pic Num := 269
Tonnage Space Taken := 10
Tonnage Structure := 10
Cost Minerals := 50
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 0
Vehicle Type := Ship\Base
Supply Amount Used := 0
Restrictions := None
General Group := Cargo
Family := 9
Roman Numeral := 0
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 2
Tech Area Req 1 := Cargo
Tech Level Req 1 := 1
Tech Area Req 2 := Star Wars Technology
Tech Level Req 2 := 1
Number of Abilities := 1
Ability 1 Type := Cargo Storage
Ability 1 Descr := Provides 20kT worth of cargo space.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 20
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Weapon Type := None

Name := Massive Cargo Bay I/II/III
Description := Massive area on a starship where cargo can be housed.
Pic Num := 269
Tonnage Space Taken := 360
Tonnage Structure := 360
Cost Minerals := 2160
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 0
Vehicle Type := Ship\Base
Supply Amount Used := 0
Restrictions := None
General Group := Cargo
Family := 9
Roman Numeral := 1/2/3
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 3
Tech Area Req 1 := Cargo
Tech Level Req 1 := 1/2/3
Tech Area Req 2 := Large Scale Construction
Tech Level Req 2 := 1/2/3
Tech Area Req 3 := Star Wars Technology
Tech Level Req 3 := 1
Number of Abilities := 1
Ability 1 Type := Cargo Storage
Ability 1 Descr := Provides 1250/2500/3750kT worth of cargo space.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 1250/2500/3750
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Weapon Type := None

I have the cargo/kt and cargo/mineral cost efficiency figures for all SW cargo components & can post them if anyone's interested.

Hope it helps.

Andr�s

October 14th, 2002, 05:50 AM

Just uploaded new files:
Sci-Fi Crossover Mod Homepage (http://se4kdy.cyberwars.com/files/sci-fi-cross/)
(Note that I didn't bother to change anything in the html, but I the "Datafiles" and "Xls'" zips are new)

I made the change in the shape of the tech tree, there are very few "new" tech areas, but most of the standard ones give new stuff, that should make trade and tech capture easier.

Also added a lot of new things including most of Erax's contributions.
Most Imperial and a good part of the Rebel are done, soon I want to move on into some of the other starwars races.

I'm still adding new stuff, making changes and correcting mistakes.
But I decided to upload the "Last Version" (and try to keep doing that periodiacally) so we don't end up talking about different things.

Take a try and let me know what you think.

[ October 14, 2002, 04:51: Message edited by: Andr&eacutes Lescano ]

jimbob

October 15th, 2002, 08:29 PM

Erax:

First, great work. That's a lot of work, and it's well balanced with the SEIV generic game. I was just wondering about this:
I scaled them so that the AT-AT was as large as a SE IV large troop (20 kt). This equates things at the top end, but perhaps the other SW vehicles do become 'tiny and weak' as a result. Maybe the AT-AT should be 30kt?Because the Star Trek Empire is a racial trait, it would be okay for it to have some advantages over the SEIV generic game. Perhaps the AT-ST could be equiv. to the SEIV large troop and then yes, bump up the AT-ATs to 30, even 35 kT. If balance is really an issue, which I don't think it will be, just bump up the racial trait cost a tad.

Just my .02$Cdn.

Erax

October 15th, 2002, 11:37 PM

Originally posted by jimbob:
Erax:

First, great work. That's a lot of work, and it's well balanced with the SEIV generic game. I was just wondering about this: (quote deleted)
Because the Star Trek Empire is a racial trait, it would be okay for it to have some advantages over the SEIV generic game. Perhaps the AT-ST could be equiv. to the SEIV large troop and then yes, bump up the AT-ATs to 30, even 35 kT. If balance is really an issue, which I don't think it will be, just bump up the racial trait cost a tad.

Just my .02$Cdn.Thanks, but it isn't work when I'm having fun. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
About the vehicle sizes, my main concern is that they must 'feel right' for everyone (balance issues can be fixed easily, as you said). Nobody knows how big an SE IV troop is supposed to be, so we can just pick a size for the AT-AT that 'feels right' for everyone and then adjust all the other SW vehicles so they stay in scale - if 30kt seems like a good figure for the AT-AT, then the AT-ST goes from 10kt to 15kt.

I'm out of ideas for now, so I guess I'll just play SW-SE IV for a while to get some new ones. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Andr�s, you're the man, let me know if you need any help.

Andr�s

October 16th, 2002, 01:41 AM

Originally posted by jimbob:

Because the Star Trek Empire is a racial trait, it would be okay for it to have some advantages over the SEIV generic game.http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif And what's the Star Trek Empire anyway??? The Romulans?? The Klingon???

Anyway most racial traits cost 0 and must be choosen in order to play the right race.
When you choose "Star Wars" and "Imperial Technologies", you MUST NOT choose "Standard SE4".
Choosing a bad combination will lead to unexpected results and will most like be considered cheating.

jimbob

October 17th, 2002, 12:13 AM

Because the Star Trek Empire is a racial trait, it would be okay for it to have some advantages over the SEIV generic game.Duh.... Me not speak so good. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif
You probably guessed that I meant the Empire from Star Wars. I will adopt the term "Imperial" to avoid such confusion. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Anyway, as you likely also guessed, I simply meant that if making larger units seemed to throw off game balance, one could quite easily just bump up the racial trait cost a bit. If you want these to stay at zero however (for asthetic's sake for example) then just ignore my babblings.

[ October 16, 2002, 23:31: Message edited by: jimbob ]

Val

October 17th, 2002, 06:07 AM

Sorry, long time no speak here. What all can I distill from the B5 mod for y'all?

Fyron

October 17th, 2002, 06:15 AM

Originally posted by Val:
Sorry, long time no speak here. What all can I distill from the B5 mod for y'all?Probably the whole thing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Val

October 17th, 2002, 06:39 AM

You Vorlons crack me up http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Andr�s

October 17th, 2002, 06:45 AM

The Vorlons were banished from the StarWars galaxy becaused ther dared to speak more like a fortune cookie than Yoda.

I'll take a look at Last Version of the B5 mod and see, but yeah I'd like to add most of it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Val

October 17th, 2002, 06:48 AM

I can barely wait to see how Fyron roleplays them in the PBW game, it's a challenge to be that vague.

Andr�s

October 18th, 2002, 04:59 AM

Well I started to revise the data files of the B5 Mod and got lost in the obscenely big components.txt

Maybe we'll have to distill a simplified Version of the mod.

I think that 43 racial traits and near 3000 components are a little too much.
Not only because of the problem that for example means adding an extra tech req to all comps.
But also because IMHO those too many choices only complicate things for players.

Some requests and ideas:
*I want to add the custom vehicle sizes I had made, to keep relative sizes between universes. Maybe will also need to add standard-sized hulls because they all seem to be too big, but we'll have to consider if any important changes need to be made for bigger hull sizes.

*I don't want to change standard techs and I want to make them available for everyone.
That means for example that Gas colonies will not be 100 more expensive to research.
And techs with higher max such as propulsion will have to be split in the standard "Propulsion" for 1-12 levels and "Advanced Propulsion" for the additional 11 levels.

*Keep only the racial traits for major races, and maybe a general "B5 Neutral Race"

*Most of the Light/Medium/Heavy variations of components can be replaced by weapon mounts (in 1.78 they can be restricted by tech and made available for only some comp families)

pathfinder

October 18th, 2002, 12:03 PM

Originally posted by Andr&eacutes Lescano:
Well I started to revise the data files of the B5 Mod and got lost in the obscenely big components.txt*snicker* Now ya know why I been thrown into the mental ward on B5. I go nutzzzz figgering out what to put into AI_designcreation for the B5 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

oh, BTW hi all!

Val

October 18th, 2002, 10:47 PM

Yeah, it is a bit daunting... It has certainly grown from the original mini-mod a year ago.

pathfinder

October 18th, 2002, 11:08 PM

And BTW do NOT try to print it out

*Da path whistles non-chalantly as he shoves all that paper into the waste bin*

Morgoth

October 19th, 2002, 01:21 AM

I have a stupid question.

I have tried to play the Babylon 5 Mod, but I get multiple errors during startup.

Which of the files do I need to install and in what order. I am anxious to play.

Thanks!

[ October 19, 2002, 00:23: Message edited by: Morgoth ]

pathfinder

October 19th, 2002, 01:33 AM

Morgoth: Did you play it in Gold?
the "official" Version is non-gold atm. PDF did a Gold Version in June which is posted for d/l in the SE IV data/sound forum. You can make non-gold AI conform to Gold by modifying the AI_fleet and AI_setting files.

http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=50;t=000002;p=3

Look for the flaming head (June 4th) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ October 19, 2002, 00:39: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

Morgoth

October 19th, 2002, 02:23 AM

Thanks!

Now all I have to do is fix Lescano's Mod http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Andr�s

October 19th, 2002, 05:27 AM

To make it gold compatible you have to edit not only the AI but also data files.
For example picture lines in vehiclesizes.txt and Vehicle Type/Weapon Target in components.txt
(there are hundreds of other details like these but I cant remember them all, check DataFileHistory.txt)

But mine is still incomplete but I'm using Last gold patch.
If there is enough demand we may want to downgrade it for 1.49 once it's more or less finished.

[ October 19, 2002, 04:42: Message edited by: Andr&eacutes Lescano ]

Erax

October 22nd, 2002, 11:37 PM

I just thought I'd post some random impressions from my ongoing playtest game (still using the 'old' SW tech tree) :

- Infantry could be a separate tech area from Troops (aka Vehicles). Troops is expensive to research as is (50k Construction + 50k for Troops 1). You shouldn't need Construction to research Infantry.

- Infantry weapons could also be separate from vehicle weapons, so you can research them without having to go through Construction.

- Fighter-mounted proton torpedoes are devastating. My curent TIE Bomber design has a cockpit, two engine Is, two laser IVs, four PT IIs and one armor - three Groups of eight bombers each are more than enough to guard a warp point against the 'SE IV Klingons' (#1 empire in the game - I'm #2). While this huge advantage is balanced by poor capital ship tech, I think PT launchers could be made larger - 4kt instead of 2kt. The TIE Bomber would hold 2 of them (which would be more accurate) and you wouldn't be able to fit one on a TIE Fighter. Caduceus Fighters could becom a 6-level tech area, with the TIE Bomber inserted at level 2.

- All Imperial fighters currently have two engines and move 8 sectors (except for the Scimitar bomber), but it would be nicer if the Interceptor was a little bit faster, the Bomber a little bit slower, and so on. I'll fiddle around with the numbers and see if I can bring it off (I'm a 'numbers' sort of guy, I guess). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Erax

October 25th, 2002, 04:17 AM

An update :

- The Klingons have started sending light carriers and ships with PDCs against me, so now my TIE bomber Groups are taking heavy losses - but they still destroy fleets worth many times their cost before being defeated.

- Here's my suggestion for SW fighters with speeds in scale with their MGLT Ratings (my main source is the game X-Wing Alliance, plus various websites for New Republic era craft).

Engine thrust Ratings will have to be increased :

Ion engine I - 32
Ion engine II - 36
Ion engine III - 40
Ion engine IV - 44
Ion engine V - 48

Abbreviations : EPM - engines per move, Max - maximum engines, SM - strategic move (with Ion Engines III), CM - combat move (with Ion Engines III), MGLT - MGLT rating.

TIE Fighter
EPM = 8
Max = 2
SM = 10
CM = 5
MGLT = 100

TIE Bomber
EPM = 10
Max = 2
SM = 8
CM = 4
MGLT = 80

TIE Interceptor
EPM = 7
Max = 2
SM = 11
CM = 6
MGLT = 111

TIE Advanced
EPM = 6
Max = 2
SM = 13
CM = 7
MGLT = 133

TIE Defender
EPM = 8
Max = 3
SM = 15
CM = 8
MGLT = 144

Note : The Defender has a threefold symmetry, so it's reasonable to suppose it might have 3 ion engines instead of 2.

TIE Scimitar
EPM = 17
Max = 4
SM = 9
CM = 5
MGLT = 90 to 100 (exact value uncertain)

Z-95 Headhunter
EPM = 16
Max = 4
SM = 10
CM = 5
MGLT = 100

Y-Wing
EPM = 10
Max = 2
SM = 8
CM = 4
MGLT = 80

X-Wing
EPM = 16
Max = 4
SM = 10
CM = 5
MGLT = 100

A-Wing
EPM = 6
Max = 2
SM = 13
CM = 7
MGLT = 120

B-Wing
EPM = 17
Max = 4
SM = 9
CM = 5
MGLT = 91

E-Wing
EPM = 14
Max = 4
SM = 11
CM = 6
MGLT = 110

K-Wing
EPM = 8
Max = 3
SM = 15
CM = 8
MGLT = 140

These figures are not 100% to scale, but they're acceptable (to me at least). I tested all of the TIE craft with the new engines and EPM values and the move values were as shown; Rebel fighters should follow the same pattern.

Hope it helps.

jimbob

October 25th, 2002, 04:30 AM

I don't want to be a bummer, but it is my thinking that the fighters, while nimble and quick in combat, are not so fast in intra-system movement. What about giving them less movement points, and more combat movement bonuses? Then the combat movement could be very high, allowing them to make initial contact during combat well in advance of any capital ships (which seems to be how they're used in both the movies and in the various games like X-Wing vs. Tie Fighter, etc)

Erax

October 26th, 2002, 12:03 AM

While I do agree that fighters should not be allowed to travel up and down and across a system at will, I feel that this has more to do with range than speed. There is no reason to suppose that a TIE fighter travels any slower on a long-term basis than it does in the short term, but you can't sit inside one for one month straight (nor inside an X-wing, for that matter).

My suggestion, if we want to implement this, is to make fighter engines 'burn' more supplies per move (or - and I prefer this option - store less of them), so they can only move a few sectors (4-6 is my guess) before running out of supplies. This would allow you to transfer fighters between planets, but they would become a much less effective defensive force.

You could give the fighter life support component some supply storage, so that Rebel craft can have a little more range than TIEs (you could also design a TIE craft with a life support component to give it more range - give it some shields and you have Vader's fighter).

jimbob

October 26th, 2002, 01:13 AM

I feel that this has more to do with range than speed. Very good point. And I like your solution too.
I'm sold.

Erax

November 1st, 2002, 12:49 AM

OK, here's some more stuff on fighters :

- Fighter ion engines currently hold 50 supply each. Reducing this value to, say, 16 will allow them to travel only 8 sectors (less if they fire their weapons). The life support component could hold an extra 20 supplies to give Rebel fighters added range.

- All of the fighters (Rebel and Imperial) can be recreated as they appear in the movies with the current hull sizes, except for the X-Wings. Cockpit + life support + 4 engines + 2 launchers (2 kt each) + 4 lasers + shields (5 kt) + R2 unit = 20 kt (current X-Wing fuselage size is 19 kt).

- Fighter hitpoints are a bit too high - since the best fighter laser cannon does 3 points of damage and since you should be able to take a TIE fighter out with one shot from twin LCs and an X-Wing (unshielded) with 2-3 shots, that's 5-6 structure for a TIE fighter and 12-18 for an X-Wing. My suggestion is to make the fighter ion engine 1 kt space and structure and the shield generator 5 kt space and 1 kt structure.

- Fighter launchers are definitely too powerful; one solution is to make torpedo launchers 4 kt in size and structure, another is to adjust their damage Ratings (material for my next post). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

- Andres, do you have a tech list ready for the Rebels ? I could try to write one if it's OK with you.

Fyron

November 1st, 2002, 01:51 AM

Don't worry too much about making sure that every little detail is portrayed exactly as it is in the movies. That doesn't really matter very much. What matters is that you get the Star Wars flavor. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

jimbob

November 1st, 2002, 05:45 AM

I agree with IF about the flavour vs. the exact replication of fighter schematics from the actual SW references.

That said:

All of the fighters (Rebel and Imperial) can be recreated as they appear in the movies with the current hull sizes, except for the X-Wings. Cockpit + life support + 4 engines + 2 launchers (2 kt each) + 4 lasers + shields (5 kt) + R2 unit = 20 kt (current X-Wing fuselage size is 19 kt) Could you increase the Reb. fighter size to 20 kT without imbalancing things too much? Or perhaps the R2 size could come down a notch (I actually haven't looked up an R2 size, is it greater than 1 kT?)

Anyway, just some thoughts. Keep up the great work.

Andr�s

November 1st, 2002, 05:41 PM

R2s are 1kt and X-Wings can be made as they�re supposed to be, only primitive R1s are 2kt.

Changing structure resistance of fighters would make them very vulnerable against PDC fire. PDC also influences effectiveness of fighter missiles and must be considered when balancing their damage.

I�m rebalancing fighter movements, to increase contrast in speed between capital ships and fighters, I wanted to make 10 HTML = 1 combat mov, no a strategic one.
Most fighters can travel between planets in the same system, even if most times that involves a micro-jump. But having twice their combat movs would make faster ones have near 30 movements and I agree that is too much. I�m playing with values en an excel spreadsheet and going to a mixed system with different eng per mov + builtin combat movs in hulls.

I have made a tech list for the rebels, I�ll post it ASAP in the site.

I want to make Interdictors somekind of stellar manipulator ships, specially some kind of warp point manipulators, since those are important in SE4. Do you have any ideas of how to implement them?

Erax

November 1st, 2002, 11:00 PM

You can only build the 'movie' X-Wings if you increase their size from 19 to 20 kt. Unless you consider that one launcher component represents the fighter's twin launchers (I hadn't thought of that).

I realise that changing fighter structure will lead to all kinds of issues with AFLs, PDCs and so on; but you won't get the 'one shot from another fighter and you're dead' effect the way things are right now. What if you increase fighter LC V damage from 3 to 4 points ? That could also work.

On the movement scale, I was aiming for 10 MGLT = 1 strategic move. I think your scale is better, on my scale fighters would be too slow in combat when compared to SW capital ships.

I think I've read about interdictors in this thread, IIRC at the time the best solution seemed to be to make them warp point closers.

Fyron

November 2nd, 2002, 01:22 AM

Just give the fighters low strategic move, and bonus combat movement, and all is well. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Andr�s

November 2nd, 2002, 01:42 AM

Fyron, I was just going to do that.

Erax, I think that was it, X-wings were supposed have 1 torp, 1 R2 and a tar comp in the remaining space.
Enlarging the hull to 20kt is not big deal anyway, but I agree with Fyron and jimbob, we don't need (and probably can't) replicate everything exactly as in the movies, in SE4 you have freedom to make different designs and research technologies in different order, so you'd probably only design them that way for roleplaying reasons.

The same applies to lasers against TIEs, I guess we can boost lasers a little, but then pehaps they will get too powerful against capital ships.
Besides IIRC in the simulators you needed at least a two-cannons-linked (and fully charged) impact to destroy a T/F in one shot. In SE4 cannons are allways linked (of the entire fighter group!), and you need a double or triple impact to destroy a TIE so we're not that far.

Yes wp closers fit the interdictors role, but we can't just close wp we'll also need somekind of wp opener and I was thinking that it sould also go in a variation of interdictors.

What about this:
Interdictor hull has negative combat bonuses (although it can carry some weapons and fighters) + a built-in QR or very high supply storage
"Gravity-Wave Generator" component consumes a massive amount of supplies to close or open WPs (opening and closing ones would be separated ones).

Other larger ships such as the Eclipse and Sovereign should be able to carry enough reactors to feed their GWGs.

Rebel's Modified Strike Cruisers should only be large enough to carry only an opener or a closer but not both.

I was also considering to test if the "Stop Open Warp Point" ability (and perhaps some other SM prevention) works for components, but even if it does you wouldn't be able to turn it on and off without either refitting the ship or getting rid of it.

Erax

November 2nd, 2002, 01:28 PM

Tar comp ? Wazzat ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

Regarding X-Wings : I agree, but the whole point of the thing is to roleplay (to me, anyway).

Regarding TIEs : Yes, we're not that far, structures are only 30-35% more resistant vs. fighter lasers than they 'should' be. It's no big deal really, if you say there will be balance issues then I believe you.

On the Interdictors : The big problem, as I see it, is you can only use SM outside combat. The Interdictors were designed to 'drop' passing ships into realspace (unnecessary in SE IV, since everyone is in realspace already) and to prevent enemy ships from leaving combat (also unnecessary, because you can't escape from SE IV combat once it starts, you can only try to run away using your standard drives). In fact, it's as if there were Interdictors present at every battle already ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

If you give them WP openers and closers, they will be used to project attack fleets into the enemy's rear area, and that is not their role at all.

Andr�s

November 2nd, 2002, 05:44 PM

Anyway WP manipulation will be importnt in an SE4 game and we'll need some Version of that.
Interdictors have a role that is related with SM.

Targeting Compurters or perhaps some armor.

[ November 02, 2002, 19:42: Message edited by: Andr&eacutes Lescano ]

jimbob

November 3rd, 2002, 07:40 AM

Well, make sure to head on over to " POLL->things we'd really like in Next Patch (Platinum II) " and submit your vote(s) for multiple Warp Point Types then (plug plug plug), and we can maybe get Aaron to introduce different types of warp points - letting us produce different types of FTL travel by SciFi Genre. Maybe then we can have more specific uses of the Interdictors.

Just some thoughts (plug plug plug)

jimbob

Erax

November 3rd, 2002, 01:33 PM

I've been thinking about Warp Points... you could make events more frequent in the Settings file (say, 100%), http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif then make the Unstable Warp Point event common and create lots Unstable Warp Point events in the Events file (and I mean LOTS; there would have to be 3+ times as many of them as 'regular' events).

The effect would be to create a galaxy in which at least one warp point would be closing per turn. That's not enough to enable us to use the Hyperdrive as a warp point opener component, but as close as we can get.

jimbob

November 4th, 2002, 12:43 AM

Right!

But imagine if you could have it so that the warp point would allow only one ship through per turn... or what if it automatically closed after being used. Now you could have only ships equiped with the Warp Point Openning drives (WPOd) actually going FTL.
Admittedly it lends itself more to B5 because any ship could go through the warp point, regardless of the presence of absense of a WPOd on it.
Then if we could lengthen or shorten the time needed to pass through the WP, that would give us relative speeds, while limiting the range would affect the actual range the drive is possible of in one turn (I don't think you can do multiple Stellar Manip actions in a single turn - at least not in Simultaneous games).

Jim

Fyron

November 4th, 2002, 12:58 AM

Originally posted by jimbob:
Right!

But imagine if you could have it so that the warp point would allow only one ship through per turn... or what if it automatically closed after being used. Now you could have only ships equiped with the Warp Point Openning drives (WPOd) actually going FTL.
Admittedly it lends itself more to B5 because any ship could go through the warp point, regardless of the presence of absense of a WPOd on it.
Then if we could lengthen or shorten the time needed to pass through the WP, that would give us relative speeds, while limiting the range would affect the actual range the drive is possible of in one turn (I don't think you can do multiple Stellar Manip actions in a single turn - at least not in Simultaneous games).

JimIf the "destroyed on use" ability is removed, you should be able to open as many as you have movement and supplies for.

jimbob

November 7th, 2002, 04:26 AM

Even in simulataneous?
Never had the pleasure of trying so I honestly don't know.

Phoenix-D

November 7th, 2002, 05:09 AM

Probably not in one turn..but then again if you don't tell it to leave the sector, it just might work. You'll still be able to make another the next turn no matter what though.

Phoenix-D

Erax

November 20th, 2002, 03:16 AM

Just some random info... These are the speeds for the various warheads in the game X-Wing Alliance (I researched this way back for another game project) :

Concussion Missile: 234 MGLT
Advanced Concussion Missile: 247 MGLT
Proton Torpedo: 117 MGLT
Advanced Proton Torpedo: 148 MGLT
Heavy Rocket: 48 MGLT
Space Bomb: 25 MGLT

X-Wing (for comparison): 100 MGLT

Hope it helps.

P.S. - How can I upload my own avatar image ?

Kamog

November 20th, 2002, 08:56 AM

Originally posted by Erax:

P.S. - How can I upload my own avatar image ?To upload your own avatar image, follow these handy steps given by Taz-in-Space:

Originally posted by Taz-in-Space:
Kimball, the easiest way to add your own avatar is to upload your graphic to Shrapnel's server.

1)goto New Scenario/Mod forum
2)enter to a topic thread
3)hit post reply
4)click on Upload File Form ( to left of type in area)
5)Browse or enter address of picture file you want(Gif or jpg)
6) click on upload button

once you have uploaded your file, you will get a message with a file path and number that represents your file.
Use this path and number in the avatar URL area of your profile.
Viola! You have a custom Avatar! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

P.S. Mine is an animated Gif. Ain't I a handsome devil! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Erax

November 20th, 2002, 09:26 PM

Thanks ! Now I'm off to find a suitable image... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Edit: See how you like it...

[ November 20, 2002, 20:57: Message edited by: Erax ]

mlmbd

November 21st, 2002, 05:49 PM

The images is good. Seems to me it needs to be a little larger. Ah, maybe it's just me.

mlmbd http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Erax

November 21st, 2002, 09:55 PM

I didn't want to cut off the lower part of the image to get more detail. I am an information pack-rat. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

mlmbd

November 22nd, 2002, 03:45 AM

Erax, in that case, it is exactly the right size!

mlmbd http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Kamog

November 22nd, 2002, 09:03 AM

Maybe you can stretch the image horizontally to make it square? Nah, bad idea, it will mess up the aspect ratio...

mlmbd

November 24th, 2002, 06:54 AM

Yeah, don't want to mess with any aspect ratios!!

mlmbd http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Starkiller

November 24th, 2002, 06:13 PM

Stop discussing about avatars and get back to the mod!

Erax

November 24th, 2002, 10:18 PM

Actually, Andres is doing the mod, all we are doing is kicking around some ideas about ship and fighter stats. If he likes them, he will try to mod them in.
But you are right... we should get back to SW ship stats. Be with you soon with more numbers. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Urendi Maleldil

November 25th, 2002, 03:03 AM

Here are links to SciFi stats and stuff

Trek:
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/

Starwars:
http://www.galacticempiredatabank.com/Main.html
http://www.theforce.net/swtc/
http://www1.theforce.net/CUSWE/default.asp

Starwars/Startrek:
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/index.html

Battlestar Galactica:
http://www.tecr.com/galactica/

Andr�s

December 22nd, 2002, 04:15 PM

Sorry for the long time without working on this mod.
If I continue at the current speed this mod will never be finished.

I need to recruit some volunteers to help me put together this project that from the beginning was meant to be bigger than me.

I need someone to mod the maps, the FQM could be a good start, but there are several details I'd like to change. Remove some "unrealistic" systems, add some others, add station/planets (there was a thread about this recently).

I need someone to make the B5 mod fit into the standard techs that are being to be shared by everyone, that means shortening or splitting some tech areas. Somehow reduce the number of redundant components, consolidating too similar ones, and if possible making different sizes into weapon mounts, add custom ship sizes for every race according to my "scaling".

With AST mod out and TNG mod in beta testing there should be enough for someone to start working in making trek fit the base tech tree.

I'll try to add SW bases and interdictors to finish the basic part of the two main SW races.

We'll sure want to add more races (B5, ST and SW) that I had not included in the original release.

I also need someone with web design experience to help me manage and improve my site.

Fyron

December 22nd, 2002, 09:19 PM

What exactly did you plan on changing with FQM? Tell me, and I'll do it for you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Andr�s

December 22nd, 2002, 11:56 PM

Let's see...

* warp points: I had tried to add B5 jumpgates and ST-DS9 wormholes, to make the game pick a normal se4 wp or any of those at random. But it didn't seem to work, although I could pick any of the 3 pics in the map editor, the map generators always seems to pick the first one. This needs more testing and maybe you know a trick involving special types or something like that.

* remove most multi-star systems with planets. Not even binary systems are supposed to have planets, but there are already canonical planets in binary systems so they will make an exemption.

* Sometimes the word system is used to described a close cluster (either physically or only politically close) of several star systems.
I was planning to use this concept in the SW map (that is something else I'd need help with) to overcome the 255 systems limit, by condensing two or three systems into one but making it look like each planet orbits only one of the multiple stars of the system.

* There are at least 2 SW examples (Ossus and Byss/Abyss) of binary systems where the planets follow a bizarre 8 shaped orbit around its two suns. I tried to make these systems but they didn't look very good.

* Most stars are damaging and cloaking.

* Asteroid abilities should be only damage and cloaking.

* Athega system (planet Nkllon) - Description: Strong radiation from the star damage space vehicles, making travel through the system dangerous, but is an invaluable source of metals.
damage + forced None atmosphere planets (at least the inner/s one/s) + very high value or some mining bonus if possible. Too bad we cannot make Shieldships.

* B5 hyperspace system (also SW Version of hyperspace?).

* ST badlands.

* add a few tiny-none planets (large inhabitable asteroids) scattered among the asteroid systems.

* Lonely gas giant system, with 20+ moons!

* Perhaps also some gas giants in other systems with 20+ moons.

* I want medium moons back, even if we have to set some systems to "empires cannot start in" to avoid location problems.

* I had also added a couple of custom planet with and their respective sector types. There will be more.

* add station looking micro planets. 2 or 3 facilities (0 domed) + a relatively large cargo space to make them able to have more platforms and fighters and make them look more station-like. Rock-ox since that�s what most, if not all sci-fi races will breathe. I don't care about having them randomly added. As a matter of fact some rock-ox should have or have the potential to add dozens of them orbiting them.

This is all I can think of right now. While researching data to make the starwars galaxy map I had been studying many description of SW systems and planets. I'm sure there are additional things from other sci-fi that can be added.

Fyron

December 23rd, 2002, 12:16 AM

* warp points: I had tried to add B5 jumpgates and ST-DS9 wormholes, to make the game pick a normal se4 wp or any of those at random. But it didn't seem to work, although I could pick any of the 3 pics in the map editor, the map generators always seems to pick the first one. This needs more testing and maybe you know a trick involving special types or something like that.The game will only use the first entry for normal warp points. You have to make them Unstable Warp Points (I think that's the right term) instead, and then it will use random pics for them.

* remove most multi-star systems with planets. Not even binary systems are supposed to have planets, but there are already canonical planets in binary systems so they will make an exemption.Does that involve removing the whole system, or just the planets?

* Sometimes the word system is used to described a close cluster (either physically or only politically close) of several star systems.
I was planning to use this concept in the SW map (that is something else I'd need help with) to overcome the 255 systems limit, by condensing two or three systems into one but making it look like each planet orbits only one of the multiple stars of the system.That is not a problem. I think the limit is something like 255 objects in a system (or maybe it is in the 1000s). How common would such systems be?

* There are at least 2 SW examples (Ossus and Byss/Abyss) of binary systems where the planets follow a bizarre 8 shaped orbit around its two suns. I tried to make these systems but they didn't look very good.The only way to simulate that would be to place the planets in a figure 8, which would indeed look odd. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

* Most stars are damaging and cloaking.Do you want that for the whole system, or just the sector the star is in? The system would require lots of extra work if you want, for example, some 6 planet systems with cloaking and some 6 planet systems without cloaking. But if you just want it for the star itself, then SectTypes.txt already has entries for those, and the chance of occurence can be increased quite easily.

* Asteroid abilities should be only damage and cloaking.Easy enough. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

* Athega system (planet Nkllon) - Description: Strong radiation from the star damage space vehicles, making travel through the system dangerous, but is an invaluable source of metals.
damage + forced None atmosphere planets (at least the inner/s one/s) + very high value or some mining bonus if possible. Too bad we cannot make Shieldships.You can not affect the random planet values for specific planets in the data files.

* B5 hyperspace system (also SW Version of hyperspace?).This can be easily lifted from the B5 mod. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

* ST badlands.I am not quite sure what those would do.

* add a few tiny-none planets (large inhabitable asteroids) scattered among the asteroid systems.The systems that are just a big field of asteroids with no star? Actually, that is a good idea for the normal FQM. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

* Lonely gas giant system, with 20+ moons!

* Perhaps also some gas giants in other systems with 20+ moons.
Eek! 20+ is a huge amount! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I don't think that many is a good idea. For the gas giants with 4 moons, I was thinking that those would be the only ones that could support reasonable colonies, or that they abstractly represent more than 1 smaller moon each.

* I want medium moons back, even if we have to set some systems to "empires cannot start in" to avoid location problems.I don't think I ever removed medium moons. I removed the few large ones I had in the original Versions, but I thought I had left a number of medium moons in.

* add station looking micro planets. 2 or 3 facilities (0 domed) + a relatively large cargo space to make them able to have more platforms and fighters and make them look more station-like. Rock-ox since that�s what most, if not all sci-fi races will breathe. I don't care about having them randomly added. As a matter of fact some rock-ox should have or have the potential to add dozens of them orbiting them.Kind of like those Machine planets and all, right? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

So... do you want domed colonies to be 1/3 as big as in FQM Deluxe, or the 1/5 as large as in normal SE4?

Andr�s

December 23rd, 2002, 05:16 AM

Maybe making all WPs unstable but with a low chance to have actual abilities.
Would it be possible to invert the roles of normal and unstable WPs?
BTW picture numbers of those WPs will have to be changed, I had added them to an old Version of the image mod bmps, and didn�t submit them, we should do it now.

Does that involve removing the whole system, or just the planets?In some cases removing the extra stars should be easier.
Hmm yes some multi star systems can remain as "useless systems that only get in the way" but of course their number should be lowered accordingly.

We should also remove organic infestations and the other new-gold systems.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* Sometimes the word system is used to described a close cluster (either physically or only politically close) of several star systems.
I was planning to use this concept in the SW map (that is something else I'd need help with) to overcome the 255 systems limit, by condensing two or three systems into one but making it look like each planet orbits only one of the multiple stars of the system.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That is not a problem. I think the limit is something like 255 objects in a system (or maybe it is in the 1000s). How common would such systems be?Yeah the number of planets is not a problem I don't think it should be that high anyway, but the actual layout of the system is more complicated. I don�t want planets in the same sector of the star but in adjacent ones and in the following �rings� around it. Probably random positions will not be possible.

They shouldn�t be very common but enough to make two or three appear even in a small map.

The only way to simulate that would be to place the planets in a figure 8, which would indeed look odd.The concept is odd, but it can be a funny variation.

Do you want that for the whole system, or just the sector the star is in? The system would require lots of extra work if you want, for example, some 6 planet systems with cloaking and some 6 planet systems without cloaking. But if you just want it for the star itself, then SectTypes.txt already has entries for those, and the chance of occurence can be increased quite easily.Yes only the sector.

You can not affect the random planet values for specific planets in the data files.I know but perhaps some bonus ability can work.
Maybe it was an exaggeration, but Nkllon was described to be the source of most metal ores (minerals) of the NR in the times of Thrawn, and attacking it would cripple all production of an empire that by that time dominated half of the galaxy.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* B5 hyperspace system (also SW Version of hyperspace?).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This can be easily lifted from the B5 mod.Yes.
On second though, the blue tunnel look of hyperspace in SW cannot be made into a good looking SE4 system, besides nothing interesting ever happens in hyperspace, if anything goes wrong (either a malfunction or enemy interception) the ship will always drop to realspace immediately.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* ST badlands.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not quite sure what those would do.Probably damage, random mov and low cloak.
Use the standard SE4 red nebulae pic until we get a more appropriate one.
Can anyone provide a nice sounding description of the badlands?

The systems that are just a big field of asteroids with no star? Actually, that is a good idea for the normal FQM.Also the ones with star in the center and concentric rings, placing a planet in the ring shouldn't be a problem. Adding one in the asteroid ring of a system with planets can be possible but rare.
I remember the description of a system that consisted of 7 concentric asteroid rings, with a few colonized asteroids in different rings. But 7 rings would be too much for the limited space in a SE4 system.

Eek! 20+ is a huge amount! I don't think that many is a good idea. For the gas giants with 4 moons, I was thinking that those would be the only ones that could support reasonable colonies, or that they abstractly represent more than 1 smaller moon each.Well ten or a dozen moons would do fine, more or less the same number of planets a normal system has, but all of them orbiting the gas giant.

I don't think I ever removed medium moons. I removed the few large ones I had in the original Versions, but I thought I had left a number of medium moons in.Right I must be mistaking it with someone else�s changes.
The FQM sometimes adds moons that are larger than their host planet what looks odd, but is not a major problem.

Kind of like those Machine planets and all, right?We had agreed that some stations should be better represented by planet sizes than by ship hulls.
Something like Machine planets but smaller than a tiny planet, with a picture that looks like a base and not like a planet and with the possibility of making a specific tech to create them, that may be researched independently from that to create actual planets.
Perhaps also some kind asteroids around some planets to enable the �construction� of these things.

So... do you want domed colonies to be 1/3 as big as in FQM Deluxe, or the 1/5 as large as in normal SE4?Increasing domed to 1/3 reduces the importance of breathable planets, doesn't it? I don't think that's the effect we want here.
I was considering making all planets in general slightly larger, but that can wait until we want to balance other things.

Another system variation, a perfectly closed asteroid belt "shields" the planets inside, and ships are forced to pass through the damaging asteroids to get in.

Andr�s

December 23rd, 2002, 05:47 AM

400 Posts!

Suicide Junkie

December 23rd, 2002, 07:45 AM

The only way to simulate that would be to place the planets in a figure 8, which would indeed look odd.It would not look so odd if the planets were mashed into a figure-8 asteroid patch...

If you say one of the crossings is actually below the other to avoid collisions, it could be reasonable.

Andr�s

December 23rd, 2002, 04:45 PM

Maybe, we need to play a little with the map editor and see that 8 shaped arrange looks better.
Random placement will of course be impossible in such a system.

We may also need to add a star (sometimes invisible) in every system, like in the B5 mod.

The station-worlds I was talking about was what was discussed in the Orbital Colonies Thread (http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=007597)

Lib3r8er

January 18th, 2003, 05:47 PM

are people still working on this mod?

Andr�s

January 19th, 2003, 12:20 AM

Too little progress, every once in a while and not bothering to update any news or files to the site but I'm still working on this.
But as I had said a few Posts before I'd need a little help.

BTW Fyron have you done progress with the map files?

Fyron

January 19th, 2003, 12:23 AM

Ooops! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif I forgot. I'll start today, I promise! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Fyron

January 19th, 2003, 01:06 AM

Andres, do you want the NASA nebulae pics that are in FQM Deluxe to be in the Sci-fi Version? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

pathfinder

January 19th, 2003, 01:21 AM

I can help once the B5 MOD is a little further along. or I think I can....my skills a few and little..

Andr�s

January 20th, 2003, 11:57 PM

NASA nebulae will be ok. Maybe some extra planet pics too.

Fyron

January 21st, 2003, 12:12 AM

As in, the pics in the Image Mod? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Andr�s

January 21st, 2003, 02:14 AM

Yes from the image mod, but not all of them. And probably not those extra planet sizes in the DFQM.
The only planet pics I have not sent to the image mods are wormholes. Can you send them now?

Fyron

January 21st, 2003, 03:38 AM

"The only planet pics I have not sent to the image mods are wormholes. Can you send them now?"

Huh?

Fyron

February 9th, 2003, 08:07 AM

Progress:
Took FQM Deluxe as base.
Made all asteroids damaging or cloaking.
Removed most new gold system types from mid-life systems.
Reverted all planet sizes to normal game.
Removed new planet sizes from SectType.txt.
Removed all planets from systems with 3, 4 or 5 stars.
I added 25 total chance to system nebulae to make up for the loss of 2.5% for the removed gold-system types for now.
Added common sector damaging and cloaking abilities for stars.
Added 3 tiny none-atm moons to Asteroid Field systems, which appear in the same sector as asteroids do. Sometimes they can be cloaked.
Added Badlands system type with chance of appearacne at 5, or 0.5% of systems.
Added 8 Figure 8 type binary star systems.
Added a Lone Gas Giant system, which has a Star, a Storm, an Asteroid, 1 Huge Gas Giant, and 16 moons orbiting that Gas Giant. The Last 5 have no atmosphere.

|

I have been designing a Close system with 2 stars. There are as of yet no moons, just some random planets for spacing. What do you think?

Close System.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1044770753.zip)

One note: cloaking asteroids are hidden on the map. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif This makes them not function as intended, as you have no idea there is an asteroid there until you can scan for it, but then it does not protect ships anymore. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[ February 09, 2003, 07:23: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Fyron

February 9th, 2003, 09:33 AM

Ok, since I have made most of the changes requested, here is a current Version of the modifications. Please reference all future requests based off of this file. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

FQM Sci-fi Crossover.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1044775931.zip)

Note: this requires the Image Mod and the system nebulae pics from FQM Deluxe.

I only changed the 3 mid-life quadrants. Most of the others have exactly the same systems, so it is just a matter of lots of copy-pasting to get them updated. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ February 09, 2003, 07:34: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

3HattedDragon

March 8th, 2003, 12:39 AM

Does anyone know the status of this mod? Is it still being worked on? Is it usable in it's current state? I downloaded the files from

http://se4kdy.cyberwars.com/files/sci-fi-cross/

Are these usable with se4g 1.84? I noticed that only the empire and rebellion empires show up in the 'pick existing' list, are the others (ST & B5) not yet usable? Anything else I should know about?

So far this mod looks really cool. I just want to make sure I have the right set of files/settings before I get too far into a game.

Thanks,
3hd

hydra

March 14th, 2003, 04:51 AM

It appears to be a work in progress... That is, progress is still being made, albeit slowly. Hopefully we will see an update soon.
Since progress is so slow, I was wondering if I might offer my services to the developers? I have very little time, but if you need help balancing, or writing tools, I might be able to help

Erax

May 22nd, 2003, 08:43 PM

Andres, what are your thoughts on creating a stripped-down Version of the Crossover Mod using SW and SEIV technology only ? It could implement your ideas on research between different tech systems (analyze an enemy ship, get your universe's Version of their components) and it would be relatively simple to make (no need to create new components / tech areas, just edit existing ones).

More to the point, would you give me your permission to create this derivative Version of the Crossover Mod ?

PS - Have you read my War for the Stars story thread ?

Fyron

May 22nd, 2003, 08:57 PM

You can get a SW Version of the mod by removing all non-SW races from the Pictures\Races folder of the mod, or by manually adding just SW races when starting a game.

Erax

May 22nd, 2003, 10:32 PM

That is a part of it, yes. But the SW tech tree needs to be integrated into the SEIV tech tree (Andres came up with this idea and this was discussed a while back on this very thread). Turbolasers need dual and quad mounts instead of dual and quad components (Andres's idea too). The Yuuzhan Vong tech tree should be partially integrated into SEIV organic tech areas. Most of the races lack .emp files. Like I said, there's some data file work to be done.

jimbob

May 23rd, 2003, 01:32 AM

Erax: PM

Andr�s

May 23rd, 2003, 02:59 AM

I've been thinking something similar.
For a start, halt the idea of a full crossover mod for a while and call it more honestly "Starwars mod 2".
How to adapt other mods so they can be merged and balanced shold be problem left for once we've made a fully working starwars mod.

Actually there was very little to strip, a few old Versions of Atrocities' and B5 shipsets, and a few empty racial traits and tech areas.

One of the latest changes I've made to the SW2mod is mount scaling for engines and B/LS/CQ. It seems to work well though it may still need a few adjustments.
I've also added some more SW stuff including base hulls and mines.

I was also thinking of some other starwars races that could be added such as the yevethan, ssi-ruuk and chiss. But this can wait, first finish imerial and rebel techs, then of included races and then add more races.

I've just read your story from the beggining to the Last post.
I've made some little changes to some of the techs you mention, so it reminds me that I must post my latest files.
But it's a great piece of work!

I've been neglecting this mod for a while. Perhaps it's time I get to work again.
Any help you can give will be of course welcomed.
But I don't think that it will be useful if you and I start making two variations of the same mod.
We must find a better way to coordinate our efforts.

I'll post or send you my Last files ASAP.

[ May 23, 2003, 02:00: Message edited by: Andres ]

Erax

May 23rd, 2003, 10:54 AM

It seems like we are thinking along the same lines. I'll wait.

Fyron

May 23rd, 2003, 10:58 AM

Do you want any help in accomplishing this Andres? SW-based ideas are not gonna come from me, but brute-force coding can. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Give me ideas and I can turn them into comps and such.

Andr�s

May 23rd, 2003, 08:42 PM

These are the Last master XLS I used to make data files.
1053715291.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1053715291.zip)
You can take a look to that while you wait for me to upload the whole mod this weekend.
I think that most of the Rebel and Imperial techs are done.
What indispensable components/facilities/hulls ect are missing?
What other cool star wars techology can be included?
What's exactly the I think the re-organization you think is needed?

[ May 23, 2003, 19:46: Message edited by: Andres ]

Erax

May 24th, 2003, 01:08 AM

The first part of the job would actually be to re-organize existing comps and tech areas, but it's all brute coding work anyway.

Erax

May 24th, 2003, 04:04 AM

Andres, I'm impressed ! That's a LOT of components !! I liked the way you eliminated many of the old SW-only tech areas (Energy Generation and so on).

I suggest two minor fixes:

- the combat bonuses for the R6 and R7 units seem to be inverted;

- the three levels of Rebel troops have Troops 1 as a requirement, but it should probably be 1, 2 and 3.

I'll post my other comments tomorrow (I think more clearly in the morning).

Erax

May 24th, 2003, 03:53 PM

OK, to answer your questions :

- What's missing ? Nothing that I can see. No, wait, there is the Force, but we can add that in after we have the Empire and Rebel tech working.

- What other cool technology can be included ? You seem to have thought of everything already. We could add some more troop weapons (grenades, thermal detonators, mini-proton torpedo launchers, heavy bLaster pistols) but it would just be chrome.

- What reorganization is needed ? You have done most of it already by moving the SW tech over to regular SEIV tech areas. I personally feel we could take this one step further - I'll try to organize my ideas, then put them on my next post.

Edit : 5 stars for your work !!

[ May 24, 2003, 14:56: Message edited by: Chief Engineer Erax ]

Erax

May 24th, 2003, 06:06 PM

OK, my thoughts are in order now. I really liked the % scaling mounts, BTW - I didn't understand their purpose at first, but now I do. I believe you could eliminate some of the families for these mounts (14, 15, 48, 24027) - some of these are fighter-sized components and the rest are 'regular'-sized SEIV components.

Now to the main point. I believe there are two or three SW tech areas left that can be 'migrated' over to SEIV tech areas. These are :

Turbolaser weapons - Could be gotten via research into Energy Stream Weapons. The downside of this is that you would have go through Physics 1 to get them. However, see below.

BLaster weapons - A family of 'bLaster cannon' could be created to serve as pre-laser SW tech. BC I could be available with no tech requirements (other than SW Tech), BC II with Physics 1 and BC III - VIII with Energy Pulse Weapons 1-6. They should be less efficient than their laser counterparts but might have a longer range at the top tech level, or allow an exclusive 'auto-bLaster' mount that increases their range (edit : you could also have them be more wasteful of supplies than turbolaser weapons).

Ion Cannons - Would be researched via Energy Stream Weapons + Shield Damaging Weapons.

Fighter tech - Star Wars races should generally get fighters earlier, since their light fighters are smaller than SEIV fighters. Here's what I had in mind :

At start - TIE Fighter / Z95
Construction 1 - TIE Vader+Bomber / Y-Wing
Fighters 1 - TIE Interceptor / X-Wing
Fighters 2 - TIE Avenger+Phantom / A-Wing+B-Wing
Fighters 3 - TIE Defender+Scimitar / E-Wing+K-Wing

The 'bomber' hulls could have a secondary Nuclear Warheads tech requirement. I believe this progression would eliminate the need for the Caduceus Fighters tech area.

There's more, but I'll wait to see what you think first.

[ May 24, 2003, 17:10: Message edited by: Chief Engineer Erax ]

Andr�s

May 25th, 2003, 08:41 AM

About those families in the scaling mounts you're probably right. I wanted to consider some possible crossover with standard SE4 but results would be weried anyway.

It's more of a question like if for example APBs and TLs similar enough to assume that it's logical that analyzing one can get you the other.

Nuclear Warheads could be migrated into Missile Weapons, but that might make missiles more used than beams.

I like the idea of earlier fighters. Maybe the fighters available to all, Toscan, R-41, CloakShape should be the one available early.

TIEs are advanced fighters, (they are smaller but have more space because they do not require life support and have more movs with fewer engines) the Empire should get other fighters such as Assault Gunboats first.

About the force we have also to consider if Jedi and Sith will have their own race/empires, what techs should be exclusive of them and wich for those who only have a handful of force-Users among them.

Fyron

May 25th, 2003, 08:42 AM

Edit : 5 stars for your work !!
He get's 5 stars for just one of those beautiful ship sets he has made. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Andres, if you give me a list of things you want coded, I can make the data files for ya in a giffy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Erax

May 25th, 2003, 11:22 PM

OK, here's my suggestion for Nuclear Warheads :

Proton Torpedoes I-V : Physics 1 + Missile Weapons 1-5 + Torpedo Weapons 1-5

Concussion Missiles I-V : Physics 1 + Missile Weapons 3-7 + Torpedo Weapons 3-7

Small Proton Torpedoes I-V : Physics 1 + Missile Weapons 1-5 + Torpedo Weapons 1-5 + Smaller Weapons 1-3

Small Concussion Missiles I-V : Physics 1 + Missile Weapons 2-6 + Torpedo Weapons 2-6 + Smaller Weapons 1-3

Heavy Rockets I-III : Physics 2 + Missile Weapons 3/5/7 + Torpedo Weapons 4/6/8 + Smaller Weapons 1-3

Space Bombs I-II : Physics 2 + Missile Weapons 5/7 + Torpedo Weapons 5/7 + Smaller Weapons 2-3

Devastator Torpedoes I-III : Physics 2 + Missile Weapons 7 + Torpedo Weapons 8-10

Flame Carpet Warheads I-II : Chemistry 1 + Missile Weapons 7 + Torpedo Weapons 9-10

Another alternative is to extend the Missile Weapons tech area out to 10 levels and not require Torpedo Weapon research.

What do you think ?

Erax

May 26th, 2003, 01:38 AM

My suggestions come from looking at things from a game perspective, so they are understandably lacking in internal game-universe logic. But let's see what I can do :

APBs vs. TLs - both use magnetic acceleration to fire packages of energy contained in magnetic 'bottles', but the content is different (antimatter for APBs, plasma/photons for TLs).

Regarding SW warhead weapons, I agree that there would be problems. Perhaps we could 'grid' them to require Missile Weapon and Torpedo Weapon technology (maybe Physics 1-3 too). I'll think of something and post a proposal here.

If we give the Empire other fighters first then the Fighters tech area will have to stay extended out to level 5, as it is in your current files. That being said, I agree. On a timeline basis, TIE fighters were developed before gunboats, so I like your other idea better - make some of the lowly fighters like the Pinook, CloakShape, even the Z95 available to all. The better 'other' fighters can be kept in reserve for when we add the Black Sun / smugglers as a separate race.

Maybe we could 'grid' the Gunboats so the Empire only gets them after they have developed fighter-sized shields.

This link here (http://www.stormsxwa.com/) has some excellent craft pictures, by the way, including all the X-Wing Alliance fighters.

Regarding the Force, I have some ideas, but I'd rather concentrate on non-Force tech first. Once we have that coded, we can spend as much time as we want discussing Force stuff.

jimbob

May 27th, 2003, 04:24 AM

well I'm impressed http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

How many levels out does the plain SEIV missile weapons tech go? If you can match it up level for level that would be optimal, no?

Andr�s

May 27th, 2003, 05:46 PM

I prefer not to change any tech maximun.
Fighter tech goes up to level 5 in standard SE4 though only the first 3 give you fighters, level 4 is required for small-q-engines and level 5 gives heavy carriers.

We don't necessarily need to keep the 5 levels of missiles and 5 levels of torps I had made up. The number SW seeker levels can be changed if needed.
What about this:
Torpedo weapons give Proton Torps
Missile weapons (+ physics 1?) give Concussion Missiles
Devastator Torps could be highest torpedo weapons levels or perhaps a torp-missiles crossover.
Flame carpet can have a planetary weapons requirement, and of course fighter weapons have a smaller weapons requirement.

Edit:
I agree with your Last post Erax I had originally modeled nuclear warheads after missile weapons. Proton Torps 1-5 like CSMs and Concussion Missiles 3-7 like plasma mis. I had only added 3 extra levels to add devastator torpedoes and flame carpet warheads. Maybe we should add some extra requirements to those ones and keep torps and missiles in missile weapons.

[ May 27, 2003, 17:07: Message edited by: Andres ]

Erax

May 27th, 2003, 10:38 PM

Fighters already goes up to 5, then ? That's very helpful, we don't have to fit a lot of different fighters into a few tech levels.

Regarding missiles and torpedoes, I actually like having them come from two separate tech areas, that way all warheads become a little less powerful (you can't get them all by researching a single tech). Missiles, rockets and Space Bombs would come from Missile Weapons + Physics and Proton / Devastator Torpedoes from Torpedo Weapons (+ Physics for the Devastator Torpedoes).

Flame Carpet Warheads could be toned down a little and moved over to the Planetary Weapons tech area.

I don't like multiple tech requirements for components (too easy to lose track of the necessary research path when playing), but if we split the components between missiles and torpedoes they will have only two requirements (plus Smaller Weapons for some of them).

Erax

May 28th, 2003, 01:01 AM

Unfortunately, it only goes up to level 7. On the whole, I prefer extending it to 10 and forgetting about Torpedo Weapon research - it's a much more elegant option.

Edit : Fighters is going to be extended out to 5 anyway, so we might as well extend Missile Weapons too.

[ May 27, 2003, 12:45: Message edited by: Chief Engineer Erax ]

Andr�s

May 28th, 2003, 01:42 AM

Should "bLaster bolts" be green for the Empire and red for the Rebels or that's just for TLs?
It will be easier if all could be red.

Projectile weapons could give Slughthrowers (a weakened Version of DUCs) so we have all basic weapon techs filled.

[ May 28, 2003, 00:43: Message edited by: Andres ]

Erax

May 28th, 2003, 02:28 AM

For some reason, I imagine bLaster cannon bolts as being yellow-gold.

But the closest thing we see to them in the movies are the bLaster cannon on the AT-ATs, which shoot red bolts, so it would be more rational to make them all red.

Regarding slugthrower cannon, I thought about suggesting them before I decided on bLasters. We are definitely thinking along the same lines ! By all means include them, They would make a very interesting 'pre-tech' addition.

Andr�s

May 30th, 2003, 08:08 PM

I've been searching for a little info on lasers and bLasters.
The autobLaster just seems to be just a primitive Version of modern lasers.

from The Completely Unofficial Star Wars Encyclopedia

AutobLaster
this ancient weapon was the fore-runner to the bLaster cannon. Like modern bLasters, it produced a high-intensity packet of coherent light which could be shot into a target. Unlike modern weapons, the autobLaster simply let fly with a salvo of bolts that were hard to aim and of relatively low power. (SH)

BLaster
common name given to any hand-held laser weapon. They come in all shapes and sizes, from small holdout weapons to heavy repeating rifles. They most often employ a small power pack consisting of a ionized cryogenic cells. The power packs generate coherent packets of light, much like a ship-mounted laser. They can be set to various power outputs, from stun to vaporation. (SW, SWSB)

Laser
a device which uses a photonic beam generator to combine coherent energy into packets that can be aimed at a target. Upon striking the target, the packets split the target's molecular structure to varying degrees, based on the strength of the packets emitted. The packets can be generated to lightly stun a target or completely vaporize it. (SWSB)

and from The Star Wars Sourcebook, 2nd edition - West End Games

The terms "laser" and "bLaster" are synonymous, except that "bLaster" usually implies a smaller, lighter weapon. Ship mounted lasers and weapons vary greatly in power.
I'm not fully convinced that bLasters and lasers should come from different techs.

But I found another "obsolete" weapon that could be used instead.
If "pulse energy weapons" give "pulse-waves" we'd have a name coincidence like with torps and missiles.
It's curious that something that sounds more advanced like spatial distortions was actually becoming obsolete during the TOTJ era by the mundane "lasers", and that by the times of the movies was probably considered as primitive as slugthrowers.

from Tales of the Jedi Companion - West End Games

The two main types of energy weapons used throughout the galaxy rely on either pulse-waves or lasers. Pulse-wave weapons fire spherical spatial distortions that disperse as they as they are propelled forward.

and from the CUSWE

Pulse-wave BLaster
an ancient weapon, used before energy weapons were commonplace, pulse-wave bLaster created a spatial distortion when fired. This caused severe damage to solid matter, as the wave altered atomic make-up. The wave dissipated as it moved away from the weapon. (E)

Pulse-wave Induction Spine
this ancient weapon resembled a modern bow, but produced a wave of energy when pulled and released. The ancient Krath used these weapons on their war droids, during the attack on the Jedi convocation on Deneba. (EGD)

Pulse-wave Rifle
an ancient weapon, used before energy weapons were commonplace, pulse-wave rifle created a spatial distortion when fired. This caused severe damage to solid matter, as the wave altered atomic make-up. The wave dissipated as it moved away from the weapon. (TOJC)

Erax

May 30th, 2003, 09:45 PM

Information on ship-mounted bLaster cannon is scarce and conflicting. The first Version of the Z95 was supposed to be armed with 'two triple bLasters', which according to most sources had less range and power than the laser cannon common to later fighters.

The B-Wing is supposed to carry 'two auto-bLasters', among other weapons. I had a hard time finding any info at all on these weapons, but eventually interpreted them to be a weapon with longer range but less damage than fighter-sized lasers (I don't remember how much of this came from my sources and how much was my interpretation, but it explains why an otherwise modern craft would carry an outdated weapon).

I agree with you that bLasters and lasers are the same tech or very similar, maybe we could have BC I with no tech requirements and BC II with Physics I to serve as 'pre-tech' for lasers. Or just forget about them and go with slugthrowers.

Regarding pulse weapons, they sound like they belong to the Early Republic era. We could give them to the Sith and the Republic races, when we get to them.

Andr�s

May 31st, 2003, 01:50 AM

I think it's just a matter of brand names, specially when refering to medium sized weapons such as the ones used in fighters and large ground vehicles.
Almost every ship component (or whole ship, or other piece of equipment for that matter) is most times listed including the producer company and model. That makes companies use their imagination when naming them.
Some are just called bLasters evoking the hand weapons the user is likely familiar with and some called lasers evoking the larger capital ship weapons.

The B-wing has somekind of continuous low-power laser used as targetting mechanism. I think the auto-bLasters are the "normal firing" laser weapons.

Yes Z-95 had two sets of three smaller bLaster later replaced by a larger laser cannon each.
Perhaps fighter bLaster/lasers should grow in size with better techs, but we don't have space to have 1/3 kt bLasters and later 1 kt lasers, and 1 kt and 3 kt does not sound consistent with fighter sizes.

You're right, pulse-wave weapons are from the TOTJ era and should be reserved for the Sith, early Old Republic, Tetans, Onderonians (Iziz and beast riders?) ect.

Erax

June 2nd, 2003, 03:32 PM

OK, 'auto-bLasters' could be a name for a certain kind or brand of laser weapon. Your explanation makes sense (especially because the terms 'laser' and 'bLaster' are used interchangeably for medium-sized weapons.

Regarding 'triple bLasters', I suggest using bLaster cannon as 'pre-tech' for lasers, with capital ship and fighter-sized Versions. The fighter-sized Versions would be the 'bLaster', 'double bLaster' and 'triple bLaster' (instead of BC I, II and III), all 1 kt in size but with increasing damage.

Erax

June 16th, 2003, 11:41 PM

Andres, how is everything coming along ? There's help available if you want it (but you know that already).

Just a few more thoughts from reading your spreadsheets :

- 'Imperializator' sounds like a temporary name for the Imperial colony module. I suggest we use 'Imperial colonial expedition' instead (unless someone has a better idea).

- Is there any particular reason why you believe the Imperial colonization modules should cost less than SEIV standard and the Rebel modules more ? (just curious about this one).

- As long as we are dealing with pre-defined homeworld types (rock oxygen for all human SW races) we could make the gas and ice colony modules more expensive than rock modules, both for the Empire and the Rebels (although the Rebel ice module could be cheaper than the Imperial Version and only slightly more expensive than the Rebel rock colony module - this IMO is better than making the Rebels an ice-planet race).

- Also... Jimbob suggested we add pirate and nomad race types from the P&N mod. How would you feel about this ? I know the Black Sun would make a great pirate race, but I know nothing about P&N.

Erax

June 16th, 2003, 11:48 PM

Just two more points (I feel it's too early for them right now, but I don't want to forget them either) :

- The Trade Federation should more properly be called the Separatists now. Their shipset can include Count Dooku's yacht, the Techno-Union landing ships and maybe some other ships from Ep II (Firespray-class massive fighters ?)

- I feel the Old Republic can be made into a separate race from the Empire. They would be the only race to have full Jedi (i.e., light side) powers.

jimbob

June 16th, 2003, 11:59 PM

For the now ex-trade federation, should they have the racial tech "mechanoid"? Admittedly there are actual biological beings running the show, but the vast majority of the funtioning members of their "society" are mechanical. Then we could add in some nifty benefits beyond "immune to plagues".

Now, that's all said having not had the time to play the game yet. If this has already been done, sorry bout wasting the bandwidth http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Erax

June 17th, 2003, 01:49 AM

Andres, take a look at the new scenario / mod forum, I just posted some bLaster images there (pistol, two rifles and heavy repeating bLaster). Couldn't set the background to black as it totally ruined the shadows / highlights, but some of the more talented graphics people around here may be able to fix that. I can also post the small (36 x 36) Versions if you want, on those the black background worked OK.

I would like to use the really long bLasters the sandtroopers on Tatooine carried as the light repeating bLaster, but I couldn't find a good image.

Andr�s

June 17th, 2003, 07:43 AM

The idea behind the colonization technology was this:

Ideally colonization should be harder (similar to Proportions) but in a SW scenario uninhabited colonizable worlds, and creating a whole new colony from zero should be of little interest. Most inhabitable worlds should be inhabited by a native neutral.
Imperials use intimidation and troops to subyugate the natives and add the planet to the Empire, an action they sometimes call with the euphemism of "Imperialization".
Rebels are more of a political force that should convince the planets to join them (somekind of Puppet Political Parties).
But of course SE4 can't handle thousands of neutrals, and PPP can be abusive.

Also in starwars the value of any individual planet is relatively insignificant, much like in a large quadran stock SE4 game.

So we have to make some asumptions to make SE4 colonization rules more starwars-like.
Most inhabitable planets are inhabited by "invisible natives", your population only shows the population that is loyal to your empire, not the whole population of the planet, and what looks like fast reproduction is actually your growing control over the planet.

Imperials, with small and cheap "Imperializators" start spreading fast from the beggining.
Rebels on the other hand can't even build a colony ship until they get big enough ships! They must remain hidden witing for their moment, relaying on the cloaking capabilities of the "rebel base" (too bad they can't hide in an out of the way system).

That should make a more starwarish difference between Imperials and Rebels in the early game.

As each race has its own colonization tech, it shouldn't be hard to make the BS and maybe other criminal organizations pirate-like. Perhaps a pirate-like "underground organization" technology can be shared by the Black Sun, Bouny Hunter's Guild (a very requested race), Smuggler's Alliance, ect.

I want to include AOTC races such as the separatists (in the PBW starwars game I played no so long ago, two players had chosen to be the "Techno Union" and the "Kaminoans"), It's a good idea to make them based on the TF but I'd prefer a modified copy rather than a replacement.
Count Dooku and his ships are sure a part of the separatists, but I want to reserve the Firespray for the bounty hunters or "underground organizations".
jimbob, will have their own racial tech with many droid devices, thoug no as many as the droids themselves if they are included as a race.

There are other races from the extended universe I'd also like to add. Such as Ssi-Ruuk, Yevetha, Droids (according to "Therefore I am" IG-88 was attempting to conquer the galaxy, that sounds like a very SE4-like goal)...

I know I had promied this before, but I'll try to get some of the files uploaded soon.

Can you send me or link to the original pics, cleaning the background should be done befoere resizing.
I don't think that the rifles the tuskens used against the pod racers were repeating bLasters. They had long cannons because those were sniper rifles, but they didn't look very powerful. I don't even recall if they were bLasters at all or some kind of slugthrower(conventinal firearms).

Erax

June 17th, 2003, 12:37 PM

I meant the bLasters the desert stormtroopers - 'sandtroopers' used, not the sand people / tuskens (I think the Tusken rifles are slugthrowers).

I can't reach starwars.com, but I can upload the original pictures (I kept a copy of them). Do you want them 'as is' or with my - inept - masking ?

Edit : Starwars.com is back, so here's the originals :

BLaster Pistol (http://www.starwars.com/databank/technology/sportingbLaster/index_eu.html)

BLaster Rifle (http://www.starwars.com/databank/technology/bLaster/index_eu.html)

Another BLaster Rifle (http://www.starwars.com/databank/technology/bLaster/index_movie.html)

Heavy Repeating BLaster (http://www.starwars.com/databank/technology/heavyrepeatingbLaster/index_movie.html)

HRB, Another View (http://www.starwars.com/databank/technology/heavyrepeatingbLaster/index_eu.html)

Hope it helps.

[ June 17, 2003, 14:51: Message edited by: Chief Engineer Erax ]

Raging Deadstar

June 17th, 2003, 07:46 PM

I'm really interested in this mod and heres my ideas for it!

Trade Federation - Keep them as they are, i really like that shipset and i think that they would be better as has been suggested with a "mechanical race"

I think that the black sun should have cheaper and maybe superior intelligence attacks (though nothing overly balancing). Like stealing resources etc

If you plan to re-do the sith i suggest using darth mauls spaceship from episode 1 as a model. And i think the old republic should use the main ships from the incomplete jedi race you compiled (battlecruiser, dreadnought, escort etc), or at least 1 race should as those were great

Also any plans for a Naboo shipset, it could be based off Senator Amidala's ship that got destroyed at the beginning of AOTC??

[ June 17, 2003, 18:53: Message edited by: Senator Raging Deadstar ]

Timstone

June 17th, 2003, 08:02 PM

Ehh... to cut into this delicate discusion. SENATOR Raging Deadstar?! What the...
What happened to you RD? Why the ilusions of grandeur? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Raging Deadstar

June 17th, 2003, 08:22 PM

Hehe hey timstone, nice to see you around again

I changed my name along with Erax and Growltigger (now Jean luc Le Grand Chat) for the Bar Trek thread. It replaced the cantina, so drop in some time. Currently i'm the evil villain (hey there was a vacancy!)

But back to the disscussion, could andres post the events file. I have a few ideas for that which i'll check to see if are included, mainly just planetary events that lower populationa nd stuff

Erax

June 17th, 2003, 08:27 PM

Edit : RD beat me to it. Timstone, drop by the Bar Trek thread sometime, we still have several crew positions open.

[ June 17, 2003, 19:29: Message edited by: Chief Engineer Erax ]

Timstone

June 17th, 2003, 08:29 PM

hahaha... you really are a special person. You lunatic... in a good way of course.
Jean Luc Le Grand Chat? You people really need a short lesson in French... it is LA chat, not LE chat. A cat is in French feminine. Sgh...

Now go ahead and be evil... be very evil... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Erax: Sorry, I don't have any time to stop by your wonderfull thread. Maybe in two weeks. For the moment I'm in my second most favorite country in the world; the Czech Rebublic. It almost makes me sad when I think that I'll home within two weeks time. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif But then I'll have time again to continue on the B5 mod 2.0 again. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ June 17, 2003, 19:50: Message edited by: Timstone ]

Andr�s

June 18th, 2003, 01:30 AM

I'm having a little problem with the files I'm trying to test.
What kind of data/ai error is likely to generate an Access Violation error?

Andr�s

June 19th, 2003, 06:45 AM

Just renamed the thread.

I have some other pics to add.
I'm downloading the imagepack so I know where to add them.
I should complete the mod and uplead it tomorrow.
I'm still getting some Access Violation errors, but if I can't find the cause I'll post the files anyway so you can help me find them.

Fyron

June 19th, 2003, 09:04 AM

Originally posted by Andres:
I'm having a little problem with the files I'm trying to test.
What kind of data/ai error is likely to generate an Access Violation error?AI ship designs make lots of errors. Go ask this question in the B5 Mod thread, and I am sure you will get bombarded with a deluge of answers. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Erax

June 19th, 2003, 02:23 PM

You could ask Master Belisarius or Mephisto to have a look at the AI files, they are the resident AI experts, or so I've heard.

jimbob

June 21st, 2003, 02:03 AM

Errr.. stupid questions, but where can I download the most recent Version of the mod?

1 post away from 600!!

Andr�s

June 21st, 2003, 05:03 AM

When you asked, nowhere? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Now all of you go here:
http://se4kdy.cyberwars.com/files/sci-fi-cross/index.htm
and download the mod.

See if you can help me find what's making those acces violation errors.

[ June 21, 2003, 06:22: Message edited by: Andres ]

Erax

June 21st, 2003, 02:43 PM

YAY ! But I won't be able to test it today. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

I'll try to test it tomorrow (if my wife lets me). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

civ2buf

June 21st, 2003, 07:05 PM

After about twenty turns, I got an access violation when I put in an order for a colony ship to move and warp through one of those hyperlink jump markers. It didn't give me the violation until the ship got to that warp point and tried to jump.

civ2buf

June 21st, 2003, 07:10 PM

Err, probably need more information. I was playing as the empire. It was a standard game (not simultaneous). Trade Federation and some neutrals were in the game but I had not met them.

Maybe something related to the star system I was trying to warp into went wrong?

Andr�s

June 22nd, 2003, 09:20 PM

Civ2buf, you're right that's seems to be the same error I was talking about a few Posts ago.
I am aware of this error, though I decided to post the files anyway.
So I don't keep you waiting do long and you can help me find the error.

Phoenix-D

June 22nd, 2003, 09:33 PM

"What kind of data/ai error is likely to generate an Access Violation error?"

That depends on where you're getting the error. If during an AI turn, the AI files..probably a ship design (creating ships with more than 255 Standard Move used to do this; not sure if it does anymore).

If when warping into a new system, like below..huh. Only thing I can think of would be an invalid system type, but that should show up during galaxy generation, at the start of the game..

civ2buf

June 23rd, 2003, 12:39 AM

Its definitely a specific system.

I tried warping in the same way to the suspect system, got the error again.

Then I went around and tried to warp in from a different system. Error.

I'm going to start a new game with omniscient view so I can check out the systems before I warp into them.

civ2buf

June 23rd, 2003, 12:42 AM

If you set all players can view all systems you get the error before the game begins.

Phoenix-D

June 23rd, 2003, 12:45 AM

Makes sense, heh. Does the mod use custom pictures, backgrounds or such? You might try posting the save game (and the name of the quadrent type you used in setup) so we have a better idea just what system it is.

civ2buf

June 23rd, 2003, 12:56 AM

I actually saw the system a second before I got the error this Last time, and I think I have pinned it down to a 84 part system starting like this. I'm going to trim that system down to fewer elements and see if that fixes it.

Name := Newly Forming
Description := A newly forming star system.
System Physical Type := Normal
Background Bitmap := Starmap.bmp
Empires Can Start In := FALSE
Mask Background Objs := TRUE
Non-Tiled Center Pic := FALSE
Number of Abilities := 0
WP Stellar Abil Type := Unstable Warp Point
Number of System Objs := 84

civ2buf

June 23rd, 2003, 01:20 AM

It didnt' end the problem by shortening that system.

But I did notice you have nebulae bmps specified in the systems file for 1 through 15, even though the pictures I have only go from nebulae1 to nebulae5. I checked the image mod too, didn't see any system pictures. So even if that isn't the main problem you have 10 extra bmps that can't be found.

Phoenix-D

June 23rd, 2003, 01:24 AM

The image mod doesn't do system background pictures..just planet, component, combat and facility pics.

Try yanking that out entirely and see what happens.

Andr�s

June 23rd, 2003, 02:05 PM

Oops, I have forgotten to include the picture/system dir into the corepics zip.
They're actually from the FQM deluxe.
Sorry but I don't have time to upload a large file right now.

I think I have finally found the error.
It was in sectortypes. When I had removed all odd color warp points I had also accidentally removed the only warp point with the setting "Unusual := FALSE".
Sicein systemtypes all systems have "WP Stellar Abil Type := Unstable Warp Point"
it is very unusual to find a non-unsusual wp. I think the only ones may be added due to the all systems must be connected option.
The map generated somekind of null warp poit that made the game crash if you started or warped into a system with one of them.

Alsom made some corrections to races that were not picking the "standard se4" racial trait.

Go to the link I had posted before and re-download the data zip.

[ June 23, 2003, 13:15: Message edited by: Andres ]

Erax

June 24th, 2003, 08:41 PM

June 15 : Captain Kwok's HD (with the Star Trek Mod) dies.

June 24 : Pathfinder's computer (with the B5 Mod) fries.

June 25 : SJ's computer (with the P&N mod) refuses to boot.

Andres, back up your hard drive RIGHT NOW !!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

PS - I downloaded the files Sunday night and updated the data files, unzipped and set up the mod directory Last night. I'll try to actually play it today.

Edit : Andres, if I could give you another 5 stars, I would ! This mod is incredibly cool ! So far, the only 'strange' thing I noticed is that the Empire can research Superlasers right from the start. Also, a nitpick : some of the engines' descriptions read "generates 1 standard thrusts", that should be 'thrust'.

Keep up the good work !

[ June 26, 2003, 12:39: Message edited by: Chief Engineer Erax ]

Erax

June 26th, 2003, 07:10 PM

Andres, should I go and ask Atrocities and Kwok for permission to use their Star Trek mods' files when we move on to the Crossover project ? I could also ask SJ if we can borrow some concepts from his Pirates & Nomads mod (like I said before, the Black Sun would make a great P&N-style pirate race).

jimbob

June 26th, 2003, 07:50 PM

Erax: I talked a little with SJ about putting in a pirate or nomad race type in the cross-over mod. He suggested making a single racial type "Wanderer" that fuses both types together, so that the racial type is somewhat competitive with the "Normal" type (He did suggest that there may be a better descriptor word than "wanderer").

I was thinking that in the ST universe the Orions, Hirogen and perhaps the Ferengi could make good "Wanderers". In the SW universe the Jawa would make excellent wanderers! I'm not sure if the Hutt would fall into that Category though. In the B5 universe there are a handful of potentials too (most notably the Raiders).

It would be hip if we had an "Ancient" type of some sort too for the B5 cross over. Perhaps in the ST portion we could have some Ancient types too... the Q? the Organas (sp) from the original series? Well, okay, maybe the Q is overkill, but it would be fun! Perhaps a race of monsters could be the ancient race... they don't colonize planets, just fly through space and occassionally drop troops (Aliens vs. Predators anyone?)

I'd like to offer my services on the QNP part of the SW mod, but I'm uncertain if I'm up to the task... SJ is so much better at that sort of thing. I'd like to look at his method using mounts again too - it had a lot of potential, and I think it was able to avoid problems with RCEs. SJ?

[ June 26, 2003, 18:52: Message edited by: jimbob ]

Erax

June 26th, 2003, 09:50 PM

The Organians would be an Ancient Neutral race (weird, huh ?). The Q... I see them as an event sort of thing more than a race ("Q moved one of your ships across the Galaxy." "Q has opened up a new warp point.").

Regarding 'wanderers', how about calling them Rogue Races ? The SW Bounty Hunters Guild and various smuggler organizations would make good rogue races. The Black Sun might be true P&N pirates. The Orions could actually be two separate races, one pirate race and one 'normal' race.

If you want to beef up the pirates/nomads/rogues, all you have to do is give them limited colonization capability.

I'm actually reading the back Posts on the P&N thread, I'll post some ideas there eventually.

Andr�s

June 26th, 2003, 11:05 PM

We don't need to copy too much from P&N to implement pirate-like races.
Every race or group of races has its own colonization techs and restricted access to other techs so that part is already made.
We don't need a "pirate" or "wanderer" racial trait unless we find that doing that actually reduces repeated components and techs.

jimbob

June 26th, 2003, 11:07 PM

Yah, a neutral Ancient race that demands you make peace with everyone, or it'll take it to ya! That would actually be quite cool. Do you think that's worth persuing later down the road? - I personally think that's sorta neat.

Space Rogues is nice enough. These are the words I got from the ol' Thesaurus:
Interstellar Vagrants
Travellers
Wanderers
Ephemerals
Nomads
However, I think that "limited colonization" ability = colonization. I guess I'd need to see a proposal on limiting colonization, but it just seems to me that a race that can colonize, will colonize. Besides, this will tie them down to planets, which we're trying to (mostly?) avoid.

[ June 26, 2003, 22:10: Message edited by: jimbob ]

jimbob

June 26th, 2003, 11:20 PM

Sorry Andres, I was evidently typing at the same time you were. Here's an extra post then:

If we want some races that do not have any colonization capacity, the only way to pull it off is to produce a trait that lacks colony ships (ie. Ancient races of B5). That means we'll have to produce another racial trait (ie Normal) that does have the capacity to colonize. Well heck, if we're at it, we could throw in a "Nomad/Pirate" race type while we're at it... and I personally think it would be a fun and worthwhile effort.

In the case of the SW universe, it seems from the movies and the books that "minor races" and Groups often have a huge effect on the balance of power between the major combatants (for example the Rebels and the Empire). Of course it would be hard to make an AI that would successfully affect major empires as the AI is not intelligent enough. However, there are many people who would love to play a minor race, and just go about buggering up things for the major races (wouldn't it be fun to play the weapons dealing Hutts - sure you're not going to "win", but you can have a lot of fun affecting the outcomes for the greater empires. Personally I'm all over playing the Jawa http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ). For those of us that love to be @%$# disturbers, we would love to have the tools available to do this, while maintaining some semblance of balance.

Edit: oh, and I read your post a little closer. I didn't realize that every race has it's own set of colonization techs! I just assumed it worked a bit more along the lines of the P&N or Proportions systems: one set of colony techs. I suppose that if you do it your way it would be fine too... and I guess you about break even on the number of components that need to be added:

three colonization components x # of races

versus

a separate couple of traits and 3 x ship sets.

[ June 26, 2003, 22:26: Message edited by: jimbob ]

Andr�s

June 26th, 2003, 11:48 PM

Yeah but 3 more components for each trait wouldn't make much of difference.
And players would have to remember to select a 3rd racial trait: StarWars Tech, Imperial Tech, Normal Tech.

Anyway I was thinking to make a single trait for all minor starwars "outlaw races" instead of one for each one.

Fyron

June 26th, 2003, 11:56 PM

Andres, please write a concise desription of the SW II mod so that it can be added to the mods list on MM's web site. Also, please indicate where you want the link to go. To this thread? Elsewhere? What "Version" should be listed? Alpha? Beta? Some number?

Andr�s

June 27th, 2003, 05:11 AM

Jimbob, jawas aren't even neutrals, their worthless planet is controlled by a Hutt lord, and shared with Tusken raiders and humans. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif
Sandcrawler based ships? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif Not likely, the Sandcrawler is a CEC design brought by Corellian miners.
Tough I may add Jawas as another outlaw race, http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif using the same set of ships that Black Sun, Bounty Hunters and Smugglers will use.

Fyron here's the description you requested

Mod: Star Wars Mod II

URL: http://se4kdy.cyberwars.com/files/sci-fi-cross/index.htm

Mod Version: hmm... Beta

SE4 Version: 1.84

Description:
hmm... the same description of the B5 and AST mod?
A mod under construction based on the Star Wars universe.

Perhaps I should expand a little...

Players have to choose between "Standard SE4 Tech" or "Star Wars Tech"+"Race Tech" e.g. "Rebel technology". (Note: so far only the Empire and the Rebels have their own techs working, other races will have to use Standard SE4 Tech)
Each race gets exclusive technology, that includes components, facilities, intel projects and vehicle sizes based on the Star Wars movies and the expanded universe.
All races research the familiar tree of stock SE4 (plus a few actually exclusive techs), but get different things. What makes trading or analyzing technology from alien races possible.

The StarWars Mod II is the beginning of a more ambitious project, the Science-Fiction Crossover Mod that will incorporate (adapting as necessary) things from other mods such as The New Star Trek Mod and the B5 Mod.

Erax

June 28th, 2003, 01:24 AM

Do you guys think all of the outlaw races should have P&N - style 'invisible civilian ships' ? I personally think they should, although they might be used for different purposes - the Black Sun would get early boarding parties for ship capture because they are more 'piratey' than the others, while smugglers and bounty hunters would use them for espionage.

jimbob

June 28th, 2003, 06:58 PM

well, I think that it would be fun, but I guess I already said that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Andres: yeah, only 3 more components per races, but if you consider that the SW universe will have what, 8 major races? The B5 mod as it stands now has in excess of 10, and counting, and the ST(AST) mod could easily offer us 10 races too. Really, we're looking at 30+ races without making any major deletions to the three mods (but also not picking up too many new races either). = 90+ components. I think a type of heirarchy within the racial traits screen could reduce this significantly. Just my thoughts...

Also, I think it would be easiest to have the player choose their "Universe" as a racial trait. That way you can enter things like the "sheilding system" and "propulsion system" only once for each universe, as opposed to a) having the same shield systems and propulsion systems for all races in all sci-fi genres or b) having to enter a series of shields, engines, fighter engines, etc for every single race http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Anyhoo, keep on truckin' my friend, I for one am really looking forward to this mod. And as to the Jawa bashing... i't noonoo etni atnoo, podwai!

[ June 28, 2003, 18:00: Message edited by: jimbob ]

TexasHawk

June 28th, 2003, 09:12 PM

Hello all... new poster here.

First of all, I have been playing SE since its 3rd iteration, and I have to say that it's going to be hard to top 4.

A few observations about the SW-II beta...

Andres, this is officer work here. When completed, this is going to be an exceptional mod/game (why the hell couldn't Star Wars: Rebellion play like this??) Anyway, the ships and graphics are top-notch. Those SSD's look great!!!

Game balance: I find that overall, generally, the Empire has far superior technology (at least in my games) I think having the Heavy Command Vessel and the Death Star make it too easy for the Empire to insure late-game domination. Granted, it's HARD to build a DS (or even a PDS) but still... I think the minerals it should take to build should be absolutely momentous, both to reflect the immensity of the task and the maintainence it would take to keep it operational. (Oh, and you should give X-wings Ability: Destroy Death Star) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

I agree with Fyron... it is odd that the superlaser tech is right there at the beginning (and cheap!) It was the first thing I researched, and then imagine my frustation at not having the requisite 15MT ship to stick it on...

I love the fighters. The fact the the TIEs are small, but hard to hit, and the Rebels are much bigger, but can have more weapons and shields, are excellent. Plus, the graphics are wonderful.

It's funny how the neutral races are always kowtowing towards the Empire when they first meet them. Don't know if this is wired in or just the fact that the Empire is so much stronger... but it's still funny!!

You might want to put a note somewhere in a Readme or something about the % scale mods. I had a frantic first few moments while I was trying to figure out what the hell to do with a bridge that was 6 times the size of my ship... but the idea itself is great.

I think Stormtroopers should be a little harder to build. As it stands, you can easily build 200-300 a turn. Are these supposed to be squads? Armies? Individual troopers?? The scale is nice, though. On a larger note, it took me a few games to get used to the various scales. I am sorry to say that the Eee, with their 'standard' SEIV weapons, chewed up my Frigates pretty nicely. The balance within the Empire and Rebels are nice, but having 'neutral races' that throw off the balance hurts it until the endgame, where the stuff the Empire can throw out can chew up anybody.

Great events. More of them, too. I lost 2 planets in 1 year alone Last game! Also, something I thought might be cool for an event is something along the lines of "The Emperor/Mon Mothma has requested several of your front line ships for reinforcements in an important sector." and then you lose a random # of ships. Just a thought...

I think having something like Kwok's captains would be awesome... kind of like 'Rebellion' where each person had different powers and gave an area/planet/ship bonuses, but were fragile. You could have Darth, Thrall, Luke, Han, etc... but a) is it possible to have only one of a 'component' at a time in play and b) would Kwok give you permission? This is actually an idea I had before I started reading the Posts and his ST conVersion, but still...

I like the damaging warp points, but I think hyperdrive is somewhat limited. The higher levels are worth it, but early on (.1, .2) it's not worth the space.

The Targeting computer is too powerful, IMO. 50 units at a time? I realize fighters play a much greater role in this mod but still... that should be something to work for, because that's a powerful ability especially on the Rebel side where you can have 50+ weapons on each battlecruiser....

Anyway, just some thoughts/suggestions. I really, really, really love where this mod is going and I can't wait to test each iteration for ya, Andres!!! Awesome, awesome stuff!!!

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Steve

Andr�s

June 28th, 2003, 09:19 PM

We already have a "universe" racial trait that sets things such as shields, propulsion and weapons AND a "race" racial trait that adds things such as ship hulls and some exclusive components. For example imperials have green firing lasers on their star destroyer hulls and the rebels get red-firing lasers on their mon-cal cruiser hulls.

As for the number of races, yes we don't want to have too much, I don't think we'll have more than 5-6 races (at least in tech means) in the SWmod2.
I think that by the time we get to star with the crossover part we may only pick the major races for each universe, plus perhaps an additional trait similar to the sw-outlaw trait for minor races.

I like the idea of 'invisible civilan ships', maybe even the Rebels should have some.

TexasHawk

June 28th, 2003, 09:41 PM

Basically, I guess what it sums up to is that while I'm cool with the Empire having better stuff (after all, that was how it was), it should be VERY hard to get it and build it. I don't care it the Empire spanned thousands of worlds, you didn't see 15 Executor-class SSDs looming around every battle. As for Death Stars, you're basically building a Sphereworld with a highly complex and infinately more massive interior with the most complex systems in the history of the galaxy, and think of how hard it is to build one of those in the 'unmodded' Version!! If the Empire 'can' get *a* Death Star, it should represent the pinnacle of their power, and should be treated as such within the balance. Also, is there a way to have one built affect relations with other empires? Really, that's what the DS was built for in the first place.. as the ultimate negotiation and diplomacy tool.

"What's that? You won't accept our generous Subjugation arrangement? That's fine. We've taken too much of your precious time as it is. We'll be leaving now."

"Oh, and good news!!! As a token to show no hard feelings, we will provide your ice world free terraforming shortly into a much warmer climate!! Enjoy..."

Anyway, as I said, great, great mod. And good people who have good ideas for the mod. This stuff is what keeps a 3+ year old game fresh..

Steve

Andr�s

June 28th, 2003, 10:27 PM

Sorry TexasHawk I didn't see your message.

Game balance: I find that overall, generally, the Empire has far superior technology (at least in my games) I think having the Heavy Command Vessel and the Death Star make it too easy for the Empire to insure late-game domination. Granted, it's HARD to build a DS (or even a PDS) but still... I think the minerals it should take to build should be absolutely momentous, both to reflect the immensity of the task and the maintainence it would take to keep it operational. The empire should be the major race having better tech and more resources than anyone else.
They should have some happiness problems wihitin their own planets althoug I not sure if the's working.

(Oh, and you should give X-wings Ability: Destroy Death Star)That would be cool, but it doesn�t look like possible.
Perhaps a special fighter torpedo that can not be researhed by bust be obtained by intel or analyzing captured imperial ships, and that haves some odd effect against adainst death start.
And it would be nice to have a sun-crusher that can actually survive the star destruction.

On a larger note, it took me a few games to get used to the various scales. I am sorry to say that the Eee, with their 'standard' SEIV weapons, chewed up my Frigates pretty nicely. The balance within the Empire and Rebels are nice, but having 'neutral races' that throw off the balance hurts it until the endgame, where the stuff the Empire can throw out can chew up anybody.On my test games the standard SE4 AI races were ahead in the early game but if you managed to survive long enough you would turn the tide.
Balance would be a major issue specially when we get to the crossover mod part.

I think having something like Kwok's captains would be awesome... kind of like 'Rebellion' where each person had different powers and gave an area/planet/ship bonuses, but were fragile. You could have Darth, Thrall, Luke, Han, etc... but a) is it possible to have only one of a 'component' at a time in play and b) would Kwok give you permission? This is actually an idea I had before I started reading the Posts and his ST conVersion, but still...We can't make Rebellion-like characters. I'd like to see how Kwok's captains influence the game before deciding to copy the system.
It wouldn't be nice to add a "Dark Lord of the Sith" in every ship.

I like the damaging warp points, but I think hyperdrive is somewhat limited. The higher levels are worth it, but early on (.1, .2) it's not worth the space.I'd like hyperdrives to be a way to control the teleporting spatial anomaly event, with range and other rules to limit it. Instead of the emergency propulsion they are now.
.1 hyperdrive is pretty useless, but with .2 you get the motivator that allows you to use it every turn.

The Targeting computer is too powerful, IMO. 50 units at a time? I realize fighters play a much greater role in this mod but still... that should be something to work for, because that's a powerful ability especially on the Rebel side where you can have 50+ weapons on each battlecruiser....The idea was that in sw weapons are not shot from the bridge, each weapon emplacement is manned by an individual gunner, or team of gunners and can target independently from any centralized system, often only recieving general orders from the command crew. Perhaps this ability should be moved to be built-in the hulls.

Thanks for the feedback.