NewbsWithLowSelfEsteem - Year 8: A Dance with Illithids

[iRFNA]

the story of my life

[NaivePhilosopher]

Sounds like you need more silver, iRFNA.

[Finalgenesis]

That is a trademark of Caelum, it's amazing troop synergy displayed in its PD.

After Aeons of existence, Caelum have struck upon the magnum opus of battle tactics adopted by all of its PD: A mix of warriors and archers (sounds good so far right?), the warriors then fly in right before the archers shoot them in the back, then they all fly away due to massive causalties, ingenious! The archers also have contest on who can headshot the PD commander (who charged along with the warriors) before the enemy cut him down, and it's a close call every time and sometimes a lucky shot from an archer can take out the commander right in the beginning, routing the whole force even earlier then usual! While I can't quite recall, I believe the PD uses the un-shielded version of its warrior to enhance the effectiveness of it's amazing tactic, it synergize so well that you can't possibly come up with something this effective even if you tried.

The only thing missing is a national description to detail this omitted facet of Caelum attitude: The nation's macabre outlook and psychotic humor, in fact all of its PD double up as a circus troope with constant turnover due to occupational deaths.

[iRFNA]

Actually, I have adopted the PD strategy for my armies. It's just too deadly to ignore.

[Hylobius]

The dog pile on Vanheim is now up to three, Agartha, TNN, and Fomoria. I will try to give Fomoria the same welcome as I gave the other two, but my forces are being stretched thin. Neighbors of these three should see this as an opportunity.

[NaivePhilosopher]

I just had the pleasure of watching Nifelheim's prophet go to work, and it was quite impressive. 79 strength? Good lord.

[iRFNA]

You forgot to mention the midget masher! Squish squish go the birds :(

[Soyweiser]

Whohooo! doubled my nr of provinces last turn :D

[lwarmonger]

Whohooo! doubled my nr of provinces last turn :D

Fantastic! How many candles do you have left? It can't be that many, since all of the provinces under your control are very heavily in my dominion.

[Admiral_Aorta]

How did you manage that? I saw your capital get taken by undead hordes and you don't seem to have much else.

[NaivePhilosopher]

In fairness, those hordes were only mostly undead.

[Admiral_Aorta]

I'm having trouble connecting to the server, it just hangs at the waiting for game info screen no matter how many times I try again.

[iRFNA]

as usual, email sent, should be fixed shortly

[SirMu]

Yeah, super tough (see: impossible) time connecting, despite having firewall off. It looks like you already extended, but if not, extension please.

[lwarmonger]

How did you manage that? I saw your capital get taken by undead hordes and you don't seem to have much else.

My dominion still extends pretty strongly through most of the occupied territory though. Bandar Log doesn't seem to be developing the conquered territory so much as raping it with 200% taxes. Besides, I've got pretty good scales for it (the turmoil 3 and luck three means he should be getting a fair amount of positive events), so I can kind of see why that works without spreading his own inferior dominion.

[Samhain]

There seems to be some debate on the matter, but the general consensus seems to be that you do not benefit from the Luck scales of an opponent's dominion. Some believe Luck 3 in an enemy dominion is treated as Luck 0. Others say it is Misfortune 3.

See: Enemy Dominion + Luck/Misfortune (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=42818)

I am not sure which is correct. But, I am certain that red candles and shamrocks are not a good combination.

[lwarmonger]

There seems to be some debate on the matter, but the general consensus seems to be that you do not benefit from the Luck scales of an opponent's dominion. Some believe Luck 3 in an enemy dominion is treated as Luck 0. Others say it is Misfortune 3.

See: Enemy Dominion + Luck/Misfortune (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=42818)

I am not sure which is correct. But, I am certain that red candles and shamrocks are not a good combination.

Fair enough. Regardless, he doesn't seem to interested in developing the land... more taxing the inhabitants into rebellion.

[Soyweiser]

I still have some of my magepriests running around, they can create undead. And ghouls, and if you make ghouls you kill pop. Scorched earth!

[bbz]

You are no more than a mere annoyance.:)

[iRFNA]

Hey, I'm going to be going on a week long ecology field trip tomorrow and I won't be able to play my turns. Can I get a hold on the timer? I hope it's not too long for everyone to wait.
From the SeaOfInnocence thread, but applicable here. Perhaps it will give SirMu time to figure out how he's gonna get his turns to the server :)

[lwarmonger]

I still have some of my magepriests running around, they can create undead. And ghouls, and if you make ghouls you kill pop. Scorched earth!

Now I've put an end to your "scorched earth" in my fair lands! Now all I have to do is destroy those Apish interlopers and reclaim my proper place as a world power!

[SirMu]

Nice 420 sized bird army, Caelum. It would be a shame if something should happen to it.

[Peacekeeper]

that army needs to get smoked.

[bbz]

yum yum kentucky fried chicken I wan't some aswell

[Finalgenesis]

Just checking that the game is paused.

[iRFNA]

Ok, I was hoping everyone would have their turns in by now, then I would have restarted the timer. But I'm tired of waiting, so the timer is going up to 48 hours again. Let's brush off the dust and get this rolling once more!

[iRFNA]

Silence0, you're the only one left. 3 hours!

[iRFNA]

Did Silence0 stale last turn? Once again 3 hours, waiting on TNN and vanheim.

[bbz]

hmm yea the last time silence0 was online was 16 days ago, I don't think he wants to play anymore. Sub?

[iRFNA]

Taking the timer off... Anyone know the state of TNN currently, so I can give people an idea in the sub thread?

[bbz]

Btw Timer is not off yet. I might be wrong but its showing that there are 8 min left.

[bbz]

I think you mistook the games newbswithlowselfesteem with seaofinnocence.

[iRFNA]

Doh!

[Finalgenesis]

Vanheim: Hylo is still here, he submitted turn in my other game just yesterday. (You might send a reminder though)

TNN: I haven't looked at this turn yet, but barring nations jumping in to take advantage of the stale, I didn't see much change to his empire from my vantage point last turn. I'll update this once I get a look after I get off work. You might want its neighbor to provide some details on the diplo, though I believe it's actually at peace (it was at war with one nation I think previously, but I believe that's no longer the case).

[Samhain]

Tir Na N'Og is down but not out. I can't see every province, but I estimate they have about 12 left. I (Fomoria) is the other neighbor that was until recently at peace with them. I declared an end to our NAP3 about 7 turns back then attacked 3 turns ago, shortly after attacking Vanheim.

Vanheim had already weakened them substantially. But, they have several thugs left as well as their pretender. It would be a good choice for someone in the mood for a brief die-hard. And, few nations die as hard as Tir Na N'Og with a decent bless, E9N4A4 in this case.

[Samhain]

I haven't seen any ads for a sub yet. Are we still holding out hope for Silence0? I sent him a PM (actually 2, the second on accident) on 4/25 asking him to get in his turn. He did not respond. I think it's safe to move on.

[iRFNA]

Ya, sorry, I've been busy. Putting up a sub thread

[Hylobius]

I'm still playing as Vanheim. I staled when I did not notice that the game had restarted. Fomoria has taken advantage of TNN stales and started to eat him. TNN still has a relatively viable position for a sub to take over.

[Samhain]

That is not a fair statement. I did not know TNN had staled the turn before last and did not know, though was concerned, he was going to stale the last turn. Still, I played my turn with the assumption he would also play his. I did not hold back from attacking. But, I also did not attack in provinces where he could have beaten me had he made an effort.

[Samhain]

Furthermore, as you well know, Hylobius, I had already attacked Tir Na N'Og before he staled.

[Soyweiser]

How do you see who staled? I thought that was rather hard to do on this server.

[Samhain]

Besides inferring from lack of activity (which is darn tough with score graphs off), the only way I know of is to remain on the screen that shows all of the banners of the nations in play. Any X'd out when the hosting clock runs out likely staled. I know from administrating a past game (though on llamaserver) that many players though will often get their turn in just minutes before the game hosts.

I've suspected that at least in some cses this is actually a form of metagaming, acting as if you are going to stale to get your opponent to take a risky move. I've considered doing it myself but have been too paranoid that either a internet connection failure or real-life event will cause an actual stale. So, I tend to do the opposite, get a draft turn in as soon as I can and, if possible, a more considered turn later.

[iRFNA]

PavlovianCat to the rescue

[PavlovianCat]

Hey all, P-Cat here. Like he said, I'll be taking over for TNN. I was able to log in fine so it should work. I'm not even in that bad of a position, though I really don't understand some of the stuff it seems he was doing (there's a bunch of sidhe champions just sort of... researching, and I have no idea why).

That said, can anyone fill me in on the current political situation? I need to know which side the pointy end of the spear should be facing.

[Hylobius]

Welcome PavlovianCat. I am playing Vanheim, and we were at war. More recently we have both been attacked by Fomoria so it is probably in our best interests to work together against a large and aggressive Fomoria. I'm not certain what your current relationship is with Agartha. Best of luck.

[iRFNA]

Hope is kindled

[Thanatus del Dragos]

TNN and Argatha are friends :)

[iRFNA]

Caelum loaned TNN 100k gold and 1k astral pearls under the guarantee that they'd be paid back with 10% interest by turn 75

[Soyweiser]

I wonder where Caelum got that kind of cash to begin with. Cheater! You norfleet (do a search ;) ).

[PavlovianCat]

Oh certainly! Here let me just get that for you... You accept fey gold, right? Don't worry, all those rumors of fey gold disappearing, or turning into snakes and such is just slander*.

*please see fey gold® terms and conditions for full details

[Peacekeeper]

I wonder where Caelum got that kind of cash to begin with. Cheater! You norfleet (do a search ;) ).

hes no norfleet, still a couple provinces without fortresses.

[SirMu]

Well, it's official. Caelum won. I call my own people dead. It was a fun run. But with the entirety of my army, my prophet, and my Pretender dead, this time I'm really not recovering. I'm setting myself to AI. It's been fun being a thorn in your side.

[iRFNA]

Thorn in my side? You almost had me

Also, hello pythium! That inadvertent battle in golana was interesting

[SirMu]

Heh. True, I guess, but that mistform army just murdered me. I guess you can deal with the AI controlled Big Bad Wolf and his band of merry archers. Oh, and there's a suprise waiting for you at my capital.

Lanka, don't bother giving me anything anymore. I gave you all I had before setting myself AI. Thanks for helping me in the Bird Extermination Project. Sadly, it was a failure.

[bbz]

lol he doesnt have much left unfortunately. But I like the supportive feelings between you two

[SirMu]

Hey, the underdogs gotta stick together.

[bbz]

lol to be honest I don't see Neifelheim as an underdog:D neither is lanka, I think I was one of the underdogs at the start of the game.:) So why is no one supporting me and sending me gifts:S

[SirMu]

I meant a contextual underdog. Based on position, not raw nation power.

[bbz]

well position plays a major role in dominions.but yet again lanka's position wasn't bad, his diplomacy though was quite bad. All my attemts to negotiate with them were answered with something of the lines of "Ekkk aOggg" :D
no wonder he didn't make friends with abysia:P

[SirMu]

My downfall is attributed to, well, the suddenly mistform'd +300 units bird army! A single spell kills me. How about that. Otherwise my giants would have completely eaten the little birdies.

[bbz]

well the asnwer to that is a good 4-5 thugs with magical weapons:)but yea forseeing it is the problem.

[SirMu]

Thugs? I had two bone-a-fied SCs and something that'd I call a cross between a Thug and SC.

[iRFNA]

Ya, he had better than 4-5 thugs, along with his skinshifters, although they were all heavily crippled from earlier starvation. What he really needed was lightning immunity...

His prophet, despite 3 afflictions, was especially terrifying. I think someone else mentioned its hilarious strength earlier in this thread.

[bbz]

I see. Well the prophet str doesnt matter since its giants vs birds, and giants have enough str to kill them in one go, more than that its overkill. what he needed probably was more thugs to penetrate through mistform and to be lightning immune as you said. Skinshifters as cool as they are are not very effective in certain situations I don't think.(Or at least I havent seen them used effectively)

Anyways, Thanks for sticking up with us up to now SirMu and I wish you better luck next time:)

[SirMu]

Thanks. Niefl has always been my favorite folk to play. Any time I get to do so is a delight.

And yes, my prophet did have absurd strength. A little more and he could have split the earth in two.

[NaivePhilosopher]

Aww, no more demonstrations of giant power? Thanks for subbing in, SirMu. My scouts enjoyed the show. Also, grats iFRNA, I sort've thought you were gonna die there.

[lwarmonger]

Hey come on guys... no props for LA Ulm? Still kicking!!!!!!

[Soyweiser]

LA Ulm? I'm besieging your cap atm :).

[bbz]

as far as I know he doensn't have a capital anymore. Now its just one of my provicial cities:D

[lwarmonger]

That you are ruining! Besides, I'm still here!

[bbz]

hmm well If I am running it for you can I get paid for it? I mean the position manager has quite a good salary. what about you pay me by giving me the rest of your provinces and forts?:)

[Finalgenesis]

We interviewed a citizen of LA Ulm's ex-capital, this is what he has to say about the monkey occupation:

"Sheesh, you can't even cross the street without stepping on monkey poo these days, and oh god the smell!"

-Name withheld on request (for fear of incurring the death by monkey poo penalty)

[lwarmonger]

hmm well If I am running it for you can I get paid for it? I mean the position manager has quite a good salary. what about you pay me by giving me the rest of your provinces and forts?:)

You are already getting paid well enough through your 200% taxes that you have been subjecting all of MY lands to! Gangster government at its worst. At least when the vampires ran things you were safe as long as you weren't a virgin!

[iRFNA]

4 hours, hylobius!

[bbz]

yea now those virgins are in my palace, satisfying their god's needs:)

[Admiral_Aorta]

Well, the last stand of Abysia is rapidly approaching, it's just a question of how many ermorian and r'yleh troops go down in flames with us. I'm not sure what to do with all these excess gems though, anyone want to use them to attack ermor or r'yleh?

[Soyweiser]

LOL. The turn I die Nief sends me his gems stores... Why did you think I was sending you what I got? I was dead as well.

Enjoy them player who I will not name.

[lwarmonger]

Well, the last stand of Abysia is rapidly approaching, it's just a question of how many ermorian and r'yleh troops go down in flames with us. I'm not sure what to do with all these excess gems though, anyone want to use them to attack ermor or r'yleh?

The funny thing is that I've built up a second stock of gems after that large amount I sent you... Still not out yet!

[Soyweiser]

Whoops. I should have send them back to you then :D

[lwarmonger]

Whoops. I should have send them back to you then :D

Don't worry about it... I don't even have enough mages to use the stocks of gems I do possess.

[Admiral_Aorta]

There's just one demonbred with an entourage of witch doctors left. :(

[lwarmonger]

Two cities and two fortresses left! Bring it!

[bbz]

well actually techninally four:)

[bbz]

lol sorry:D my bad two and two indeed makes four:D anyways, loads of respect for leading the war for so long.(LOL and loads a disrespect for myself keeping it for so long)

[lwarmonger]

Yeah, I have been kind of curious about why I haven't been destroyed yet.

[bbz]

you know the usual things barbarian attacks knights attacks, Bogus liberating some slaves. All the things a tyrant like me has to deal with:)
But in my defence most of you casltes have bloody 600-700 defence.

[bbz]

you know the usual things barbarian attacks knights attacks, Bogus liberating some slaves. All the things a tyrant like me has to deal with:)
But in my defence most of your casltes have bloody 600-700 defence.

[Samhain]

I believe we had two stales the last turn, Vanheim and LA Pythium.

[Peacekeeper]

my bad, ive been busy the last couple days and it completly slipped my mind.

[Hylobius]

I definately submitted my Vanheim turn. The stale turn message said something about it being an old 2h file as opposed to a turn not being submitted. When I download the file, run the turn and submit the 2h I don't see how it can be ann old 2h file.

[iRFNA]

I had that happen to me in SeaOfInnocence a couple turns ago. I dunno what the cause is...

[iRFNA]

Just an early reminder to try to prevent another stale, don't forget, Finalgenesis!

There seems to be staling and near staling from lots of people, does that mean the timer is too short for this stage of the game or is it forgetfulness? We can lengthen the timer if necessary.

[bbz]

im fine so far, so its up to the other people to decide.

[Finalgenesis]

I'm okay with the timer

[NaivePhilosopher]

I'm fine with the timer as is, but I wouldn't have any objection to extending it if people are feeling pressured.

Also uh...sorry 'bout that Admiral. Your Last Disciple deserved a better death than that. :(

[Admiral_Aorta]

Oh well, I'm dead in all but name anyway.

[iRFNA]

Don't forget again, Peacekeeper

[Peacekeeper]

its in with 4 hours to spare!

[iRFNA]

There is only one lord of the ice. Only one who can bend it to his will. And I do not share power!

Btw, sorry ermor, just passing through

[lwarmonger]

Well, this is it. Bandar Log, I just sent you my remaining gems (some small reward for beating me, in addition to my lands). My last fortress will be taken this next turn. A few rogue bands of rangers might keep me alive for a turn or two, but for all intents and purposes resistance has been broken. Good game.

[bbz]

Well, this is it. Bandar Log, I just sent you my remaining gems (some small reward for beating me, in addition to my lands). My last fortress will be taken this next turn. A few rogue bands of rangers might keep me alive for a turn or two, but for all intents and purposes resistance has been broken. Good game.

Thank you for that the gift, it will be appreciated and I will make sure to put some extra care in developing your lands and making sure that your formal people are happy.It was an honour fighting you.

[Samhain]

Word of warning, Finalgenesis broke NAP3 by attacking without notice this turn. To say the least, I strongly suspect he had also targeted me in previous turns with Leprosy and Mind Hunt.

To be fair, I previously overcast his Mother Oak also while in NAP3 with him. Though, I did not consider that in violation of NAP myself. If he did he didn't voice it.

[Finalgenesis]

How unfortunately, Samhain has broken the NAP 1 turn after we made them previously, via the direct target overwrite of our mother oak global. How that can be viewed as a non-aggressive action is far beyond me, and it is universally accepted in the community to be a breach if you insist to ignore common sense.

Btw, we've PMed your breach and oathbreaker status to everyone except for Agartha awhile ago when it happened.

To all, I've repeated this in pm already, Oathbreakers should not be accorded any consideration or fair dealings at all in the current and any future incarnations, for they have proven themselves undeserving of them. Do deal with them as you deal with oathbreaking scums.

[Thanatus del Dragos]

Hey! Why is Agartha left off the PM list? Nobody likes Giant pale bloated one-eyed gys who wear nothing but a cape! Racist!

[iRFNA]

I think I trust samhain more than finalgenesis, but maybe I'm racist against tentacle mouthed monstrosities...

[Finalgenesis]

Apologies Agarthans, we suspected you of allying with the treacherous fomorians.

And iRFNA, feel free to trust the fomorians, say themselves that they overwrote ryleh's mother oak during NAP, there, better believe it ;-).

[Samhain]

How unfortunately, Samhain has broken the NAP 1 turn after we made them previously, via the direct target overwrite of our mother oak global. How that can be viewed as a non-aggressive action is far beyond me, and it is universally accepted in the community to be a breach if you insist to ignore common sense.


Me think though dost protest too much. I figured that overcasting your global would get your tentacles into a bunch. I did not and do not consider it a breach of NAP. As I did do a bit a research on the subject of NAP before first agreeing to one a couple of games ago, I already felt I had an idea of consensus on this particular matter when I ran across it this thread...

Inviolate NAP, First Draft (http://http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=40476)

Note rule #2:

2. He has overcast my global! Is this a violation of the NAP agreement? No*

*Emphasis added.

Reading on in the thread...


It all seems pretty standard to me. I follow most of these rules already when I sign NAPs. Except 17 is a little muddy (but it is also a situation I have never run into).

As far as dispelling or overwriting one of my globals. If it is overwritten, so be it. Global are cast to be overwritten at some point. If he dispels it though, that is an act of aggression. Of course, it would difficult to be certain that he was the one that dispelled it, unless he tells me.


Your opinion on the matter hardly seems "universal". Regardless, enough with the rule lawyering. There's no glory in debate, only in war. I'll drag you down with me to Tartarus, squid...er...thing!

[iRFNA]

Finalgenesis is obviously of the lawful evil alignment. And being a chaotic evil masquerading as chaotic neutral, his ways are anathema to me! What about you?? Let us rise up against the tentacled tyrants!

[Finalgenesis]

Ah yes, I would assume Ling is speaking of random overwrite when global slots are full, rather then target overwrite, in which case Ling is absolutely correct, would you perhaps provide the full context? Of course, there's always the rare lone rebels. I can just as easily pull up quotes that the majority consider target overwrite a breach.

But really, we agree that at this point rule lawyering is moot, let's begin (though we've never really stopped). I would remind everyone to keep in mind Fomorian's proven treachery however, and take heed in current and future incarnations.

We look forward to adding more royal fomorian bones to the ocean floor, could I perhaps entice you to send another dozen or so of them down for tea?... *sigh* I suppose it's my turn to fight on difficult non-native terrain.

[Samhain]

That is the full quote. I meant to supply the link above, but I broke it.

The thread number is 40476. Here is another attempt at the URL: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=40476

I think it is pretty clear though that he was in agreement with the thread's author that overcasting another's global is not a violation of NAP. There is, I believe, some disagreement on that point later in the thread. But, the weight seemed to side with me.

That would make you the oathbraker, not me. That you pre-empted your violation with a PR campaign followed by treacherous tactics, anonymous spells, speaks to the fact that you knew you were in the wrong.

Actually, I blame myself, though, for making a treaty with such a vile creature to begin with. I certainly won't make the same mistake twice.

[Peacekeeper]

...umad bros?

[bbz]

Lol I took some time and actually read some of the thread and will just tell Shamhain that everyone that has some brains wouldn't consider that a proper thread. I am sorry to say but the thread's creator said two exremely contravesial statements.
First one being that Arcane nexus is violation of the NAP and then he says that if the other player is about to win for whatever reason that is not violation of the nap. I am sorry to say but Arcane Nexus is regarded Nap breaker exactly because of the opportunity that it gives to that player to win, and in no way harms other people. So the creator of that thread must have gotten something wrong since casting Arcane Nexus is almost equal to winning soon(say have 1 victory point remaining) and yet again he considers one of them violation of the nap and the other one not a violation of the nap. For me personally if you do something to harm the person you are in nap with that counts as agression. And destroying his economy is acressive act (since with that economy he buys troops) so in fact you are killing his future troops and thus being agressive against him. Overcasting a global is in my eyes definitely a break of the Nap since you destroy his economy on purpouse. Some people might argue that Casting a global when the global set is full is not violation of the nap sice it is not malicious that you wanted to take down your Nap partner's (lets call it) Global enchantment. So you had it coming the moment you overcast R'lyeh's Global if you ask me.

P.s There is another clear mistake in that persons vision of nap. He states that ANONYMOUS spells are not violation of the nap. While in fact they damage you and are malicious on purpouse.(thus being agression from his side). Tell me then Samhain if there were only two people left, having a nap.Let say you and another guy, and there comes an Anonymous spell at your capital. lets say rain of thoads, surely it wont be some of your mages casting it and thus your opponent,(with whom you have nap) had casted it. Do you see that as a non agression act?

So clearly the creator of the thread you cite was wrong and thus canno't be fully relied on, with his fake preception of what is and what isn't a violation of the nap. I am sorry but stating that some lie is the truth, because someone said it before doesn't make it the truth.:)

[Finalgenesis]

I could see in the same thread that many disagrees with the OP, but really, who cares what the minority says in the end?

Was the direct specific overwrite of our global an act of aggression and malicious intent? It most certainly is. Hence we'll purge your treacherous kind from this realm.

Honestly, the cost we estimate that you've wasted in your conflict with us has been staggering with nothing to show for (well unless you count me having to waste N gems rewrite and the handful of priest/items to be a gain...), I honestly thought we could maintain a faithful NAP to our mutual benefit rather then mutual waste... But so be it.

[Samhain]

I see your point, bbz. And, I also consent that I do not agree with all of the stipulations for NAP set by my cited thread's author, LoloMo. My purpose in pointing out that thread was that the rule of overcasting another's global is considered a violation of NAP is not universal. There was, as I pointed out, at least one veteran player who made a statement I interpreted to also agree with LoloMo's and myself on the matter. There were also many others who posted disagreements with some of the authors rules but, notably to me at least, not that one. To me, that seemed to indicate that this was acceptable.

Especially as my Mother Oak was cast the very turn after I agreed to NAP, if I thought it would violate, I would have just delayed my response to the PM until after the turn was run.

Consistent with my apparently less strict view of NAP, I did not confront R'lyeh on the subject of the anonymous spell attacks until after the second and even then only to ask if he had cast them. When he denied it, I let it drop. If he had admitted the attacks, I would not have accused him of breaking NAP only of violating my understanding of our agreement and offered him a chance to renegotiate or suffer the same. I still, however, would not have moved troops into his territories without the before agreed upon 3 turns notice.

[iRFNA]

Poor WTF Is A Clock??. He died as he lived: with his mind blown.

[lwarmonger]

Personally I think that overcasting a global (since it isn't directed against any one player) is not a violation of a NAP (especially since by having a global, a player harms all other players by default by using up one of the five spaces... dispelling, which is specifically directed, would be an aggressive act since you are singling out that player simply to hurt them).

And with that I am out!

[Finalgenesis]

Interesting, I guess it's not always common sense and completely universal.

I say it is universal because in all my past MP games whenever it came up it was considered a breach, I also asked in IRC back then and the 3 or so vets that was on all agree that targeted overwrite was a breach, but of course its a given that there could be some here and there that disagrees.

Iwarmonger, you say "isn't directed against any one player" is not a violation, I agree, however when I say a direct overwrite I mean specific directed overwrite: a) he specifically cast mother oak, while I already have it up, during a NAP. From what you're saying, it looks like you're agreeing actually. A random overwrite when slots are full is perfectly acceptable applying common sense, which is not the case here.

Regardless, my stance on NAP is simple, all acts of aggression are breach of non-aggression pact... lol

[NaivePhilosopher]

My take on this debate, since it seems that we all get to chime in :p

Casting a new global and overwriting one when there are 5 globals up shouldn't constitute a breach of a NAP. Casting a global that is already up, which will always overwrite a single individual's global, would be. Why?

Well, dispel seems to be pretty uniformly agreed to be a breach of a NAP. It targets an individual to their detriment. Overcasting a global (in this case, Samhaim's Mother Oak replacing Finalgensis') results in the same thing, but with added upside for the overcaster. It still targets one individual with whom you've presumably reached an agreement and can substantially hurt them, only this time you profit more directly from it. If someone that I have a NAP with overwrites my Well of Misery, for instance, I'll definitely consider it a breach and declare war. (Just as a heads up, everyone! ;) )

That said, considering that Samhaim says he didn't consider it a breach, it brings to mind something I read when I was first researching diplomacy for MP Dominions: if something isn't clear, spell it out when you agree on the NAP in the first place. Misunderstandings can happen, after all, and it's better to get all that out of the way at first. In any case, that's my piece. Considering this is a no-rules game newbie game, we should all take it as a 'live and learn' experience.

[Calahan]

Passing FYI - Thought I'd pass on some of the 3+ years of experience I have on NAP's, for those interested.

Everyone will have a different view as to what constitutes a breach of NAP. But when you are about to do something that you think might breach a NAP (such as stealth preaching/stealth troop movement/over-writing currently existing globals), then it's pointless arguing or discussing what other players think (by digging up threads), as there's only one player's view that matters. And that's the player you have the NAP with. Nobody else's views matter one bit. (with regards that particular NAP. Other players views may effect future NAP's these players have, but that's for the future)

So unless you either get the ok for your actions in advance with your NAP partner ("Hi there, do you mind if I stealth troops into your land or not?"), or you clearly laid out some terms of the NAP when signing (and not just said "Do you want a NAP-3?"), then just about any action you take that impacts negatively on your NAP partner can be considered a breach (by some players). I've seen players claim NAP breaches over Scouts or building fort/temples on borders before now, which just shows some players will always take these things to the extreme. Edit - Just remembered ages ago one player claiming I breached an NPA with him just because I purchased a load of archers on his border, as doing that *obviously* meant I was going to invade him next turn?!? (so be aware that there are nutters out there)

So if you are a player who signs NAP's, then you either need to lay out a few general terms before signing on what might constitute a NAP breach. (1. No stealth preaching. 2. No targeted global over-writes. 3. Casting the following globals without asking. etc.). Or accept that some players will view any negative impact you have on them as a breach. But what you can't do is rely on any sort of "The general community consensus is that XYZ is/isn't a breach of NAP" as there just isn't a 'general community consensus' in existence. The closest you'll get to community agreement on this matter is with certain powerful/harmful globals, as most players agree they are an instant declaration of war on the world (rather than a breach of NAP). But even that view isn't universally accepted (although I would say it has a fairly large majority).


FWIW, if someone randomly overwrote my global by putting a new one up, then I wouldn't consider that a NAP breach (or an act of war). But if someone targeted my global specifically with an over-write, then that's an instant declaration of war for me. Since they targeted me with a spell that had quite a big negative impact on my empire and removed a valuable resource (since I wouldn't have put the global up if it wasn't valuable to me).

[bbz]

Yea thats a good point NaivePhilosopher. It is a live and learn, and the understanding of the game for one of the players might be different than the understanding for another and that doesn't make the other person's view wrong or right. So we just have to see how would people react to our actions and try to learn from it:)

[Finalgenesis]

fully agree with cala, bbz, naive and Iwar.

Again, we declare Fomorians oath breaker forevermore, with the targeted casting of a mother oaks over our pre-existing mother oaks during NAP, a clear act of aggression.

case closed.

[lwarmonger]

fully agree with cala, bbz, naive and Iwar.

Again, we declare Fomorians oath breaker forevermore, with the targeted casting of a mother oaks over our pre-existing mother oaks during NAP, a clear act of aggression.

case closed.

Ok, so you have the moral high ground. Great! Now turn that moral high ground into a victory!

[Finalgenesis]

I'll certainly try

[Admiral_Aorta]

I'm somehow still not dead and I took a province with a scout! Yay!

[Finalgenesis]

Looks like pythium is staling, if they're too small to matter anyway can please set them to AI?

[iRFNA]

Well, he may not hold much territory, but it's because he's set himself up for a last stand scenario. And he's reading this thread, right now!

[Admiral_Aorta]

I finally died! Hurrah!

[iRFNA]

Congrats!

I'm perpetually surprised at the continued existence of indie provs this far into the game. I see 4 still floating around, and I'm not even looking at most of the map. Although 2 are from events that happened quite awhile ago...

[Samhain]

This is not easy to do as I have been having a great deal of fun in this game and am learning a lot in the process, but I'm afraid I need to bow out. My responsibilities at work have increased dramatically and I discovered that some projects on my house are more urgent than I had previously thought.

[Samhain]

A sub has been found, nttea. I have requested that iRFNA put the game on hold for a while to give our new player time to assess Fomoria's position and put together a strategy.

[nttea]

Hello! I'm the sub :) this will be my first multiplayer experience but i spent alot of time learning the game, i hope i can make do without too many silly mistakes although im sure they are part of the newbie experience^_^ i got lots of time on my hands so as long as the technical stuff works out i will not need the game put on hold for long, but i didn't do everything i need to do yet! will start working on it right now.

[Finalgenesis]

Ah Tis a shame Samhain, good luck and may we battle on another world.

And welcome nttea =)

Oh just a heads up, won't be able to reach my game computer til another 24 hrs. I see now the turn hosting is in 26 hrs, so expect a late turn from me (but no need to extend), nttea might need some extra time though.

[iRFNA]

I'm putting the timer on hold for now, so that will you give nttea and you the time needed.

[Samhain]

Thanks everyone for such a great game. I'm sorry myself I have to leave in the middle of such a great war, Finalgenesis (and PavlovianCat!). But, I've never played any game that I've liked half as much as I do Dominions. I'll be back as soon as I get some things under control. So, I'm sure we'll get a chance for a rematch one day. And, I promise, I'll engage in no more NAPs until I fully understand, what are still to me, their idiosyncrasies.

Good luck and have fun!

[nttea]

there we go! i think i got everything worked out and the turn submitted, the only thing puzzling was that the mods from the start of thread, but viewing one of the battles required me to have something i got from 1.84 (endgame diversity stuff i think) i hope this won't be the cause of any problems :( one magic item cost two 5 air gems instead of 5 air gems and some other kind of gem which it was supposed to i think... anyway i submitted my turn i think i figured out the tactics my predecessor was using and i only altered it very slightly on a few points, i will be in the dom3 irc channel if anyone wants to discuss diplomacy. Or you can pm me it's ok too!

[Finalgenesis]

Done with my turn as well, Pythium is left last I checked.

[iRFNA]

The shield of valor costing 2x5 air gems is a bug unique to the version of cbm we're using in this game, unfortunately. No one caught it before the game started

I'll restart the timer.

[bbz]

Hello all, I will be travelling till Thursday the 16th of June, so I would like to ask for an extension until then. If the current turn is played before tomorrow morning I will be able to submit the next one. But I'd still need the extension for the next one. Thanks in advance.

[iRFNA]

k, I'll take the timer off both games tomorrow

[iRFNA]

holy ****ing communion, ermor

[bbz]

thanks I submitted this turn so you can play it out and then put the game on halt for the one after that for Newbswithlowselfesteem:)

[iRFNA]

Why do wendigos get chill aura but only 50% cold resist? I'm pretty sure your wendigo got suicided by its chill aura...

Also, you bastard.
http://i.imgur.com/QX9IZ.jpg
Why'd it have to be him? :(

[Peacekeeper]

Why'd it have to be him? :(

looks like he let you down.

[iRFNA]

ran around and deserted me

[NaivePhilosopher]

To break up the meme, they have 100 cold resist, but I'm a dunce. I threw on Marble Armor which gives the stoneskin effect, and thus less cold resistance. :doh:

I also completely forgot to organize that army before I sent in a turn. So, I'm on a run for multiple devastating and silly mistakes. :D

[iRFNA]

Has fomoria been staling?

[Gandalf Parker]

the date on Formoria's last turn in file is 2011-06-14

[iRFNA]

doh, I'm surprised no one noticed their units standing still

[Finalgenesis]

Their units are mostly locked behind walls, what do you expect them to do? Suicide charge? (I wouldn't mind that)

[iRFNA]

haha, guess that explains the stealthy stales, but I'm glad it probably hasn't been too damaging

Well, nttea last logged into the forums yesterday, I'll give him a bit to respond to a PM

[iRFNA]

Well, nttea submitted his turn, I guess I'll restart the timer.

[iRFNA]

Putting the timer on hold cause I just got my power back on after a near 2 day outage. I'll have my turn in tomorrow, but I just don't have time tonight to do it properly.

That was quite a battle at your capital, ermor! If it wasn't for your damned ankh...

[iRFNA]

Everyone should get this fixed CBM 1.82 (http://www.dom3minions.com/fixed_mods/CB1.82.dm.zip). If you're in other games using recent CBMs, among other things, Gandalf has setup a dir on his server with fixed versions of mods for the new patch (http://www.dom3minions.com/fixed_mods/).

[Finalgenesis]

The fixed CBM removed certain gems income and recruitable from my sites....

[iRFNA]

What did it mess up? Have you posted about it on the other forum?

[Finalgenesis]

I have posted now. It removed N gems and enchantress from whispering woods.

[Finalgenesis]

I see that the game is already paused, but just a heads up, I've been away the past two days and won't make it back til tomorrow night, when I will hand in my turn.

[iRFNA]

No worries, bbz is gone for 5-6 days.

[iRFNA]

I've noticed turns coming in closer and closer to the deadline, perhaps 48 hours is too short of a timer?

[Finalgenesis]

I'm indifferent, 48, 60 or 72 are all okay with me.

[Finalgenesis]

Ack another case of unable to upload turn in a dozen tries!!! If you get this in time please pause it and have gandalf reset again!

[iRFNA]

doh, the freezing thing? i'll have gandalf restart now, but it won't be as useful to you :(

[Finalgenesis]

one nasty after another, will it never end *sigh*

thanks for trying btw, that's some fast response admin!

On further reflection, it's taking me 2 days deliberation to fully finish my turn, and a 48 hr turn would be perfect under normal circumstances, but given this persistent issue I have to vote for 72 or even 96 hrs turns. But actually that doesn't solve the true problem:

And that rings up the root problem, if I connect to server before I finish my turn (to check for server problem) I can ring the alarm earlier but then I will have handed in an incomplete turn that could host the turn, but if I fully finish up my turn before checking I may be forced to stale by the server again due to not having enough time to pause. I think this root problem could be a deal breaker for me considering how often I've seen it this game (at least previously it was all reset in time during early game when turns are short).

It's late and I'll sleep on it... can't think of a solution nodding off.

[bbz]

yea lets go for 72 hrs or 96 if other people want that I don't mind it I myself am quite busy so making the turns longer is quite good for me:)

[iRFNA]

I'll have gandalf put the timer at 72 hours, that'll give you a lot more time in case of any more errors.

[Finalgenesis]

I need another reset, been trying on and off but just can't get my turns off server

[iRFNA]

Well, I'm on the ball this time.. when there is no hurry

[NaivePhilosopher]

Huh. Well, the Ankh turned my pretender into a soulless. but let him keep his magic. I wasn't even aware that was possible with CBM.

[iRFNA]

The idea of killing a fountain of water then having it rise as a zombie amuses me to no end, although I didn't see your pretender die..

[NaivePhilosopher]

Fatigue killed him, I believe. So, the water fountain died of exhaustion, then became a zombie. <3 Dominions.

[iRFNA]

I reported that as a bug and they say it's only -5 magic.

[NaivePhilosopher]

Well, he still seems to have all his paths. Same for the mages who died in that attack, now that I look at it. Maybe it's due to being cast through the Ankh, rather than the actual spell? /shrug

[iRFNA]

Were they turned into big soulless? As in bigger than size 2.

Or winged soulless,.. or some other sort of soulless other than the unarmed size 2 one?

from here (http://z7.invisionfree.com/Dom3mods/index.php?showtopic=381&st=210&#entry1541230) if you want to just respond yourself, or I can pass along whatever

[Finalgenesis]

Just a heads up that I'll be on vacation from 26th July - 16th August, and wondering if for this duration if it's okay to switch to 96 hrs timer? I tried IRC and post to find temp sub but no such luck (I did find one for my other game though god bless his soul! No way will I find time for both games on vacation).

There'll be some days where I have no internet access but 96 hrs should cover that and allow me to squeeze out the time to do the turns.

Apologies in advance for the inconvenience, let me know if the temporary extended host time is a problem for anyone.

[iRFNA]

96 hours is fine with me.

I've noticed agartha staling a lot. However, since I'm assuming he's in the same position as before (guys holed up in a fort), setting him to AI would basically mean instant disaster when the AI tries to break the siege(s). Due to the dearth of subs, I'm guessing we aren't going to find one any time soon. It's a conundrum.

[Finalgenesis]

you mean Fomoria? he has 1 empty fort and 1 semi empty fort in the heart of TNN land (hence why I can't get at it), everything else is gone. TNN is sitting on top of the semi empty one, which happens to be immediately next to the empty one.

[iRFNA]

Doh, fomoria. Sorry Thanatus, that was stupid of me! Damn giant races...

[Finalgenesis]

I'm back from vacation, thanks for the turn extension during the interim!

[Finalgenesis]

I suspect Agartha is missing, been 3rd turn in a roll where I see him not turning in turn with 1 hr to go.

[iRFNA]

Ya, I sent him a PM a couple days ago about it, no response

[Finalgenesis]

We gonna need a sub I believe, assuming the past 3 turns he really was afk that means 10+ days without a word, probably another one of those.

[Colonial]

I'm interested in checking out the super-late game, actually.

What is agartha's position/stratagy?

[bbz]

hmm I'm too far away to say. But currently Agartha doesnt have any globals. has around 1/6 or 1/5th(thats a rough guess) of the map maybe less but i cannot tell. neighbouring an agressive R'lyeh that just casted Arcane nexus and Caelium. and I myself am on the other end of the map.:) Thats as much as I know.
everyone seems to be building up some armies and goodies for the final showoff.:)

[Finalgenesis]

I have slightly better info:

There are 4 nations left -
Bandar - bbz
Ryleh - I
Caelum - IRFNA
Agartha - <A brave soul>

Ryleh has the river, random beach resorts and the whole NW.
Bandar has the whole south, including most of SE + SW.
Caelum has the whole NE, E border bandar, with a bit poking into the center
Agartha has a small chunk of the river, the North + a bit poking into the center.

Final showdown is looming, and it'll be a brutal one for everyone involved, if you sub agartha expect extreme end game fighting and heavy micro.

Agartha's long stale didn't hurt him since the game has settled into 4 nations with fixed border before he left, all everyone else has done is spend gems.

I myself (Ryleh) have no plans to attack and I'm sure everyone else can at least give you 3 turns grace period to prepare, if they had any plans to attack (which I doubt). You can safely expect a period to build up from the way it looks.

And don't listen to them, my wars in this game were never aggressively started by me, they were either defensive retaliations taken to completion (I don't believe in loose ends), quickie land grab from close to dead nation, and a nation who asked me to end them due to hopelessness (Fairly, they put up a good fight for what they had to work with, no freebie takeover involved).

[iRFNA]

20 hours until hosting, but I'd be fine with a delay so you can get acclimated if you decide you want to try subbing in, Colonial. PMed info for connecting.

I've been allied with agartha the entire game and would be fine with continuing that alliance. Trust not the tentacle mouths.

[iRFNA]

Colonial, do you want to try subbing in for agartha or not? The game is currently on hold for you

[Finalgenesis]

Might as well make a formal sub seeking thread, while letting this turn go through before the game gets any further delayed and eventually stalls...

[iRFNA]

Sub thread up. I've been a lot more cramped for time lately, as you probably noticed, and so have been rather lax in my responsibilities. I really hope I can manage playing this game when **** finally goes down, but I'm honestly not sure if I'll be able to. We'll see, I guess.

[Finalgenesis]

I feel you mate, I've been in those cramps in the last 2 MP late game I was in and this one is shaping up to be another insane late game micro fest.

In fact, in the last game the end war was held off due to everyone's fear of the micro, and it's the same thing here for all of us I think lol.

[bbz]

yea:D I cant be bothered to start a war atm:D maybe when I finish my other game lol:)

[Colonial]

Funny, I'm playing another late game on cradle of dominion where MA R'yleh is holding the central water and lible to roll to victory...

I'm regretting more and more of my decisions in that game though, and might prefer it if the ****t choices were made by someone else :D.

If you guys do want to play out the endgame I would be game.

Agartha has, um, a password, though. so maybe not...

[Finalgenesis]

Thanatos' cred just went to the ****z on that one... nice way to **** a game up as usual from these stealth quitting scums, leaving a password just to stink **** up.

From experience I know that Gandalf can't reset the pw from a stealth quitter, understandable of course as a matter of principle and work needed to verify.

So I guess the only option is to ask just to make sure then set to AI once confirmed?

Sry Colonial, thanks for trying >.< If Gandalf do reset the PW we'll let you know...

[iRFNA]

Hey guys, calm down, the password isn't an impassable roadblock. I've sent colonial his salvation and he will be able to play agartha

[Colonial]

One eyed mole men are online :D

[Finalgenesis]

Welcome!

[bbz]

x2:)

[Colonial]

This guy really let his dominion go. my entire empire is cold 3 :(

[bbz]

get some heaters:) or make your armies wear warm clothes

[Colonial]

I'm popping out as many H(eating) 1 guys as I can every turn :D

[Finalgenesis]

Okay I think we'll have to accept the sub shortage situation, the game must move forward, barring that... you can always surrender to moi!

On a more serious note, I recommend 2 options:

a) Leave Bandar to stale but not AI, we all agree not to enter Bandar land (via spells or army). Meanwhile our turn goes on and we continuously advertise for a sub. Their globals however, should be fair game.

b) Switch him to AI.

If you have any other ideas do share, those are all I can think of. We really can't let this drag on any longer.

[bbz]

if you want to do option a> i can give someone my password so that every turn they log in(ofc not cheating but since its a game for fun i doubt any of you would do that) and end the turn so that you dont have to wait. for the new turn this way i effectively leave the game without any consequence to the balance.

[iRFNA]

Well, none of us would be able to log in and do your turn, since the game cheat detector would get angry and delete all but one turn we submit per.. turn.

I'm not really sure about it anyway, even an idle bandar would really mess up game balance. We may have to just do AI, as awful as it sounds.

[bbz]

ok then do you want me to set it to ai? on both games or just in newbs(i think its gonna be a waste if i set marverni at sea on ai:) you can take over them if you want to iRFNA)

[Finalgenesis]

with option a) there's a good possibility a sub will turn up, we could set a limit of 3 turns stale and if still no sub (3 turns should be 12 days) we switch it to AI. Of course hands off Bandar during the stale period.

Otherwise if AI is preferred we can go with that.

Either way I'm fine with it, not optimal but we make do.

[Finalgenesis]

*cough*

[iRFNA]

Ah, sorry, dom3 has been getting more and more forgettable lately with the lack of action. I put the timer back up, I guess we'll start out with your plan.

[Finalgenesis]

I know! It's very close to the point where we all fall asleep and the game fizzles away XD

[Finalgenesis]

I'm having the unable to connect thing again (probably due to the dust XD), could I get a reset?

[iRFNA]

All of dom3minions is down right now. (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=47902)

[Finalgenesis]

Oh ic! Never mind the game, I hope he's all right @.@

[Finalgenesis]

Just a heads up, the game should be going back up shortly!

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=788109&postcount=9