SE IV Gold: Starting tech levels? Yes or No?

[Captain Kwok]

I'm sure there are lots of people who would like to see starting tech levels (like those in SE III) added to the new Version...does this seem like something that can be easily done by Aaron and if so...should we use our "community muscle" to see it included in the upcoming Gold release?

[zen.]

Hmmmm...that would be pretty cool, but it seems like there would be a LOT of reworking to get the files to do that. As in, for EACH race.

My request is for a 'Save' (and Load) option for the Game Setup. Basically, just remember all the settings and even races that were added, if possible. I.E., if there are certain races I always like to include or settings I like to play in, it can just be loaded and tweaked.

[Phoenix-D]

Maybe. But I wouldn't want to see it done SE3 style.

Why? Well, SE3 setup, each tech level was one point. No matter if it cost 5000 research points once in-game or 10000000000000, pre-game it was the same. IMO, that was a bad idea.

Phoenix-D

[dmm]

A scenario editor (savegame file editor) would accomplish exactly what you're asking for (with a little bit of work), plus a whole lot more. Let's ask for that!

[edit: And you wouldn't be hard-coded into one person's idea of how starting tech levels should work.]

[ 06 December 2001: Message edited by: dmm ]</p>

[Captain Kwok]

I think there's a little bit of misunderstanding.

You wouldn't have to edit the files.

You can keep the current SEIV racial trait system etc., and just have the starting tech levels as a free option to give particular technologies to a race at the start of a game...it would be quite useful for roleplaying and making scenarios...and you could even make really challenging games against the AI for yourself.

[Captain Kwok]

A scenario editor would be nice but would take some time for Aaron to program. However, using starting tech levels it would be fairly easy to create decent scenarios - and if the map editor was slightly changed so you could assign multiple planets to a player that would almost be as good as a scenario editor...

[bearclaw]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
Maybe. But I wouldn't want to see it done SE3 style.

Why? Well, SE3 setup, each tech level was one point. No matter if it cost 5000 research points once in-game or 10000000000000, pre-game it was the same. IMO, that was a bad idea.

Phoenix-D<hr></blockquote>

I have to agree to this to a point. I liked the SE3 option of choosing starting techs and I agree that 1 point per level made it unbalanced. I would love to see the option for choosing starting techs based on their Research point cost per level. Say, start a game where everyone could start with 500,000 research points max. worth of tech. That could be just one more colonizing type or some pretty nifty weapons. I think that any more than 500,000 and you might as well play a max tech game.

Just my opinion.

[evader]

defintly need something along those lines. As it stands now the game starts out too slow.

if its 1 point per tech or what I don't care. Just give us some control over starting tech please

[Atrocities]

A lot of these ideas may not be included with Gold, but the more people support Aaron the greater the chance that they will all be included in SE V if produced.

[Q]

No matter how it's done, but choosing starting technologies would be very important for me. If you can make a real scenario editor all the better, but I think this would be much more work to implement.

[dmm]

All we need is for MM to put in an option to allow save/read gamefiles as ASCII. Judging from historical precedent with other games, someone else will then quickly write a shareware scenario editor. (Notice I say "option." During the setup of a game one could simply disable the option to save gamefiles as ASCII.)

[dogscoff]

In theory, starting techs should be more or less modddable using racial techs. Just as one race starts with organics and another doesn't you could mod the files with a series of "parallel" racial tech areas so that a race can spend points to start with (say) fighters.

Can some more experienced modder confirm this for me? I think it would involve a lot of work.

[ 10 December 2001: Message edited by: dogscoff ]</p>

[Mark Walton]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by dogscoff:
[QB]In theory, starting techs should be more or less modddable using racial techs. Just as one race starts with organics and another doesn't you could mod the files with a series of "parallel" racial tech areas so that a race can spend points to start with (say) fighters.

[QB]<hr></blockquote>

Not claiming to be a more experienced modder, but in my limited experience this will work- but, ther are complications.

You can copy the tech and make it race only, and copy all the components, facilities, vehiclesizes etc. so the player can use them.

However the game will see them as seperate entities, so if a player with RacialFighters captures an enemy ship with normal Fighter tech, they wil not be able to repair the fighter bays.
Also the tech will not be tradable.

// End of answer

// Start of wild fantasy

It would be good (for SE4 platinum, perhaps) to change the way tech trees work, with an extra field to say a racial tech is also researchable
- or perhaps any racial tech with a prequisite means, you can either buy the racial skill OR research the lead-in tech.

- or alter components etc to have multiple "Tech Req" blocks; if the player satisifes any of them they understand the item.

something like:

Number of Tech Req variation : 2
Number of Tech 1 Req := 1
Tech Area 1 Req 1 := Energy Stream Weapons
Tech Level 1 Req 1 := 2
Number of Tech 2 Req := 1
Tech Area 2 Req 1 := Resupply
Tech Level 2 Req 1 := 3

[Q]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by dogscoff:
In theory, starting techs should be more or less modddable using racial techs. Just as one race starts with organics and another doesn't you could mod the files with a series of "parallel" racial tech areas so that a race can spend points to start with (say) fighters.

Can some more experienced modder confirm this for me? I think it would involve a lot of work.

[ 10 December 2001: Message edited by: dogscoff ]<hr></blockquote>

I believe this could be done in theory. But I am sure that it would be a terrible amount of work: You would have to make a new modification for each race and every new game where you wanted a different set of starting tech levels. And always all your old empire files would be out of use! Absolutely not practicable.

[Suicide Junkie]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I believe this could be done in theory. But I am sure that it would be a terrible amount of work: You would have to make a new modification for each race and every new game where you wanted a different set of starting tech levels. And always all your old empire files would be out of use! Absolutely not practicable. <hr></blockquote>Or, you could create a racial trait for "Starts with Fighter tech Level 2", just like my nomads in P&N.
Repeat for all the different techs, and after a ton of work, you never have to do it again: just pick different racial traits rather than different mods.
This would be easiest on the short tech trees, and hard but possible for even the "prerequisite techs".

[Captain Kwok]

I sent an e-mail to Aaron, so hopefully he'll be able to reply soon, and we'll see what he thinks about starting tech levels...

[Q]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Captain Kwok:
I sent an e-mail to Aaron, so hopefully he'll be able to reply soon, and we'll see what he thinks about starting tech levels...<hr></blockquote>

Any news??

[Mephisto]

I don't think that it will be included in the gold Version. It would require code changes and therefore play testing. And unfortunately GOLD is running out of time if we want to meet the release date.

[Daynarr]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Captain Kwok:
I think there's a little bit of misunderstanding.

You wouldn't have to edit the files.

You can keep the current SEIV racial trait system etc., and just have the starting tech levels as a free option to give particular technologies to a race at the start of a game...it would be quite useful for roleplaying and making scenarios...and you could even make really challenging games against the AI for yourself.<hr></blockquote>

That is not as easy as it looks. AI uses scripts to determine its ship designs, production and research. If you just give AI some starting techs, he is still going to design same old ships and follow the same research path.

That basically means that if you give AI some technology it doesn't normally research and use, he STILL won't use it.

And in order to give AI some more advanced techs that he WILL research, you would have to know exact research path for EACH AI.

This could be the basic reason why MM didn't implement this type of game in SE4 - it uses different game mechanic from SE3.

[Q]

Daynarr I do not think this is a big problem. In the worst case you give the AI some technology that he will not use. So what?
And the major technologies as colonization, ship construction, shields, fighters and so on are the same for all races.
I don't know how SE IV exactely handles this, but I believe that the available tech levels for a race are stored somewhere in the savegame file. For MM it should not be too difficult to edit this in the setup of the game.
I really believe the starting tech levels would greatly add to the variety of the game and should be high on the priority list. If not for the gold Version itself, then for the next patch.

[Captain Kwok]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Any news?? <hr></blockquote>

Not yet...hopefully soon though...

[Captain Kwok]

The idea of starting tech levels is not necessarily to upgrade the AI's performance...it's more for roleplay and/or scenarios really. You know, create a game, set up some races and give them various levels of tech based on their description - say advanced cyrstalline weapons for the Phong or maybe the Terrans have developed powerful missiles. It helps to 'flesh' out the game just that much more...it could make more competitive between players of different levels...

There's far more good than bad I think and it's more feasible than tcp/ip tatical combat...

Look...

Each race file already has settings that record the level of tech that race has achieved. All that would have to be done is allow that information to be edited/set during the game setup. Also, it wouldn't replace the current low-mid-full tech options, it would supplement them.

[geoschmo]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by suicide_junkie:
Or, you could create a racial trait for "Starts with Fighter tech Level 2", just like my nomads in P&N.
Repeat for all the different techs, and after a ton of work, you never have to do it again: just pick different racial traits rather than different mods.
This would be easiest on the short tech trees, and hard but possible for even the "prerequisite techs".<hr></blockquote>
S.J.,

This idea intrigues me, but I am confused by your suggestion. It appears to me that you would have to create a parallel set of components and tech areas that are equivilent to standard fighters, but with the bonus of having fighters right off the bat. (Not a bad thing, in fact I am thinking of making a mod to do this exact thing. But it sounds like you are saying there might be an easier way.)

I don't see any way of allowing acces to the standard figter tree by racial traits, without making it impossible for any race to get to fighters without the racial trait.

Could you elaborate on this a little?

Geoschmo

[Lastseer]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by [K126]Mephisto:
I don't think that it will be included in the gold Version. It would require code changes and therefore play testing. And unfortunately GOLD is running out of time if we want to meet the release date.<hr></blockquote>

Starting techs should be very easy to implement. Just let unused tech points carry over from turn to turn. Then allow the number of starting tech points to be configurable from the game options screen.

This way players can pick what starting techs they want. The only side effect of this method is Generic Tech level 5 would take 5 turns to get by carrying tech from turn to turn.

[ 17 December 2001: Message edited by: Lastseer ]</p>

[Suicide Junkie]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>This idea intrigues me, but I am confused by your suggestion. It appears to me that you would have to create a parallel set of components and tech areas that are equivilent to standard fighters, but with the bonus of having fighters right off the bat. (Not a bad thing, in fact I am thinking of making a mod to do this exact thing. But it sounds like you are saying there might be an easier way.)<hr></blockquote>What I was saying was that doing it by racial traits is easier than trying to change the starting tech levels for each player, or having the GM play the first 20 turns just to research tech.

To keep things simple, we should allow "Starting tech 3" plus research in the normal tech to add.
Starting propulsion 4, + propulsion 3 should give Jacketed Photon Engine I's (level 7).
Note that purchasing starting techs will lower your research costs in that level! (That is offset by racial point expenditures)

You would have to duplicate all the components, and you might have the odd effect, such as analysing a "medium fighter (+1 level)" would only get normal races the small fighters.

What you need is one new copy of every component affected by each racial starting tech option.
Having "Fighters +1", +2, and +3(max), would involve making 3 new copies of the fighters plus the carriers (if you want). Going into dangerous detail, you'd also have to copy the fighter engines, the small weapons, etc.

It would be best to write a program to do this for you, since anything with multiple tech requirements will explode into lots of copies. (eg: four fighter engines. These split into 16 due to the four levels of fighter tech. Those split because of engine tech into 4*1 + 4*12 + 4*12 +4*12 = 148 fighter engine components.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Ion engines require only engine tech level 1, so they are independent of engine starting tech. 4*1.
For CT engines, each fighter-tech copy requires 3 new copies for engine starting tech 0 to 3. We still need 9 more copies with no propulsion requirement, for the starting tech traits 4 to 12.
Same with the more advanced engines.<hr></blockquote>
Writing a program to do this would not be too hard. Given a list of the tech areas you wish to make purchaseable, it will scan the txt file, and copy anything that requires the given tech, adding the racial trait requirement and reducing the normal tech requirement.

I could write up a utility to do all of that (modify racialtraits.txt, components.txt, facility.txt, intelprojects.txt, techarea.txt, vehiclesize.txt), but the main problem might be an overflow in SE4 (we can only load 65,536 components, right?)

[geoschmo]

Ugh. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Well maybe I can come up with a simplified Version of that.

Here's my idea, and any of you that would like to have starting tech levels feel free to post your opinions.

For lack of a better term I am calling it the Accelerated Tech Mod.

The exsisting techs will be unchanged, but for several of them there will be an Accelerated Tech Version that you can get at game start by spending some racial points.

So far the categories I am thinking are fighters, mines, and troops. Say 1000 racial points for each and you have the ability right from the start to build level 1 equivelents of each without having to research the prerequisite Construction theoretical science or the level 1 applied tech. This would save you about 100K of reasearch in each case, say about a year of research time in a single planet low tech start.

Also, as a option I will have an accelerated tech tree for point defense and minesweepers. For those that don't neccesarily want to spend all the racial points, but dont want to get overrun in the first 6 months by a fleet of carriers and fighters. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif These counter techs will be available at say half the cost in racial points of the others. 500. That may change.

Also, if you want accelerated mines, you don't get minesweepers. You have to buy both at game start, or research them the long way. Same thing for fighters/point defense.

Also I am thinking that the Accelerated tech trees should top out somewhere not as high as the regular ones. If you want to go higher you have to research construction, or military science or whatever. That idea is still being worked in my mind.

Suggestions?

Geoschmo

[Suicide Junkie]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Ugh. Well maybe I can come up with a simplified Version of that<hr></blockquote>The trick to the method I described is to write a program to do all the work for you.

[Mark Walton]

Just out of interest,

What would happen if you set up say, Fighters as racial tech X, but then after the initial game setup, changed the data file so it is no longer racial tech?

Example: In initial gamestart TechArea file:

Name := Fighters
Group := Applied Science
Description := The construction of fighter vehicles and their support components.
Maximum Level := 5
Level Cost := 100000
Start Level := 1
Raise Level := 0
Racial Area := 20
Unique Area := 0
Can Be Removed := True
Number of Tech Req := 0

Which reverts to :

Name := Fighters
Group := Applied Science
Description := The construction of fighter vehicles and their support components.
Maximum Level := 5
Level Cost := 100000
Start Level := 0
Raise Level := 0
Racial Area := 0
Unique Area := 0
Can Be Removed := True
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Construction
Tech Level Req 1 := 1


So we set up a trait granting racial tech 20, player gets fighters. As soon as the game starts, we switch the files - then everyone can research it.

OK maybe I could test that, but I'm tired at the moment.

[geoschmo]

Neat idea, but I don't think it will work, for the same reason you can't open an .emp file that was created using a different Racial Traits file. The game can't open it. I tried it and got a "Cannot open test.gam" error message.

Of course I could have done something wrong.

Geoschmo

[Mark Walton]

It seemed to work in my test - important thing is, don't change the racial traits file back, only the tech areas.

Did a quick test; my "fighter" race was able to create and design fighters even after the tech was switched back to non-racial. I'll do more tests later.

Edit : Quick further test

1. Other races can't use the tech unless they choose the race special, until they research it (I know that was the idea, but it was worth testing!)

2. The tech cannot be futher researched until the "real" prerequisites are known. At this point the tech is just "there" as if it had been researched normally. (If you wanted, you could do the same trick with "Construction" and get players to choose both, then they could research from turn 1)

3. Haven't tested trading the tech (yet)

4. Have to decide at start what tech level any players will get (ie can't have one player choosing tech level 1 fighters, another player choosing level 2)

This gives us possible options for the regular racial techs... needs some experimentation but we may be able to make them tradable / learnable / researchable.

One thing I'm doing in my mod is making the current "ruins" techs into normal techs with extreme research costs. So, a player can research Neural Combat Nets (but it's probably prohibitively expensive). Most often, players will get that tech by landing on a ruins world (not a unique one, just a regular one, and getting lucky)

I might try combining this idea with the racial-startup ideas here.

One test; can we research techs which have our "special" tech as a prerequisite, even if we haven't learned the tech-reqs for our special tech?

[ 19 December 2001: Message edited by: Mark Walton ]

[ 19 December 2001: Message edited by: Mark Walton ]</p>

[Mark Walton]

Another test.

Created 3 tech areas:

Dummy A
Dummy B (requires Dummy A level 1)
Dummy C (requires Dummy B level 1)

Initially, made Dummy B a racial tech type with start level of 1.

Started a race with Dummy B tech. Saved game, edited tech file so that tech B is now a normal, non-racial item.

Loaded game : Was able to research Dummy A and Dummy C, but not Dummy B.

So, it looks like this works; still need to test trading.

Another thing to test is how many racial areas we are allowed. I might make my mod so that ANY tech can be bought with racial points, and that ANY tech can be researched. Thinking maybe race points cost is based on cost of that tech at level 1, plus half cost of all pre-req techs. Only available at level 1. Then I just have 2 TechAreas files; one for game startup, one for game in progress.

[geoschmo]

Excellent bit of deduction here Mark. I have run some more tests and have some observations...

Trading techs is not a problem. As long as they are not listed as racial techs in the TechArea.txt files at the time of the trade, they can be traded. (Actually Racial techs can be traded as well, but the race receiveing it has to have that racial trait as well to be able to understand it.)

I ran some tests making Construction, Fighters, Mines, and Tropps all as Racial techs. As long as you select Construction and the other tech, you can research the higher levels once the TechArea.txt is back to normal. (As you expected, just confirming that one.)

The idea doesn't seem to work with multiple levels of the same tech though. I tried a few different tests and the best I could do was get it to allow one player level 1 fighters and one level 2 fighters at game startup. Which was what I was going for, but then when the TechArea.txt file goes back, they both end up with level one fighters, and the guy that selected level 2 fighters has to research construction, even though he had it as a racial trait. Either the game is getting confused or I fumble fingered something cause that doesn't make sense to me.

What should work though would be to change the TechArea.txt file so that there are no levels. Instead of Fighters levels 1 through 3, you would have seperate tech areas for Fighters I, Fighters II and Fighters III. It would flatten out the Tech Tree, actually it wouldn't be a tree anymore, it would be a list. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

But then you could go as far as you wanted with this idea, depending on some hypothetical limit to the number of racial techs. You could truly select any tech at game startup. And as long as you selected that techs prerequisits you would also be able to research it further in the game. If you didn't select the prereq's you would have to research them all before you could move on. Also if there was a comp that required level 3 of propulsion (Emergency propulsion IIRC) then selecting level 6 would not give it to you. You would have to select level 1 through 6 of propulsion.

Not sure what the limit to the Racial Tech areas is. Maybe 255? We'd have to check with Aaron on that. The Racial Trait file would get pretty big as well. We'd have to rewrite the comp.txt and VehicleSize.txt and Facilities.txt files. But they wouldn't get any bigger really. You'd just have to go through and change the requirements. For example if you had a component that required Propulsion level 6, you would change that to require Propulsion VI level 1.

Would require a lot of changes to the files, but you'd only have to do it once. One hard part would be deciding what amount of racial points to require for each tech.

You'd also have to redo the AI's, but that wouldn't be as difficult as it might seem. I have some ideas already about that. It should be possible to adjust them so they function in this environment as well as in the stock one.

Geoschmo

[Mark Walton]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by geoschmo:
Trading techs is not a problem. As long as they are not listed as racial techs in the TechArea.txt files at the time of the trade, they can be traded. (Actually Racial techs can be traded as well, but the race receiveing it has to have that racial trait as well to be able to understand it.)
<hr></blockquote>

Good, I had hoped this would work. It means we can switch racial traits away from being racial, too, if we want. Careful there though... I would be inclined to put the research cost WAY higher. I mean, does it really break the game if a race can become psychic later? Should it really be impossible to develop Crystalline or Temporal tech after discovering space flight?

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by geoschmo:

What should work though would be to change the TechArea.txt file so that there are no levels. Instead of Fighters levels 1 through 3, you would have seperate tech areas for Fighters I, Fighters II and Fighters III. It would flatten out the Tech Tree, actually it wouldn't be a tree anymore, it would be a list. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
(snip by MW)
Also if there was a comp that required level 3 of propulsion (Emergency propulsion IIRC) then selecting level 6 would not give it to you.
<hr></blockquote>
Yes, very interesting! The points costs could be balanced out in proportion to the number of research pointe required to reach that level. So, if your race CAN produce top-level APB's on the first turn, they probably can't do a whole lot else. (Like, actually afford to build a vessel carrying one)

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by geoschmo:

You'd also have to redo the AI's, but that wouldn't be as difficult as it might seem. I have some ideas already about that. It should be possible to adjust them so they function in this environment as well as in the stock one.

Geoschmo<hr></blockquote>


I would be interested to hear those ideas, it may just be creating a different style of ai_research.txt : the idea would really have to work well though, for people to be bothered to do it... unless we name the techs in such a way that a script would handle it.

This might work well with some of the ideas I shelved for my mod (which one day will be in releasable format!!) regarding weapons (and other tech) development. I'll dig out my notes and start thinking.

[Mark Walton]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by geoschmo:
The idea doesn't seem to work with multiple levels of the same tech though. I tried a few different tests and the best I could do was get it to allow one player level 1 fighters and one level 2 fighters at game startup. Which was what I was going for, but then when the TechArea.txt file goes back, they both end up with level one fighters, and the guy that selected level 2 fighters has to research construction, even though he had it as a racial trait. Either the game is getting confused or I fumble fingered something cause that doesn't make sense to me.

Geoschmo<hr></blockquote>


Sounds to me, like you created a seperate item in TechArea. Is this true?
I think that will not work, TechArea must have the same items in the same order... I think... will test at some point.

[geoschmo]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mark Walton:
Sounds to me, like you created a seperate item in TechArea. Is this true?
I think that will not work, TechArea must have the same items in the same order... I think... will test at some point.<hr></blockquote>Exactly. In the Racial Traits file I had Construction, Fighters I and Fighters II, as racial techs 6, 7, and 8.

Then in the Tech Area file I made Construction racial tech 6 with start level 1, fighters tech area 7 with start level 1, and another fighters with tech area 8 and start level 2. I was kind of expecting it to fail because of two tech areas with the same name.

It suprised me that it didn't, and the player with Construction and fighters I got level 1 in fighters and the player with all three racial areas got fighters level 2. But then when I went back to the regular tech area file the player with fighter level 1 still had it and the player with fighters 2 could build level 1 fighters, but couldn't research any further until he researched construction again.

Very confusing.

[geoschmo]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by geoschmo:
Also if there was a comp that required level 3 of propulsion (Emergency propulsion IIRC) then selecting level 6 would not give it to you. You would have to select level 1 through 6 of propulsion.<hr></blockquote>

(quoting myself now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif )

Actually this could be fixed if the Required Trait field in the RacialTraits.txt file were working. It doesn't appear to do anything, but if you could say for Propulsion X have a required Trait of Propulsion IX and so on, then you couldn't just take the highest level and save up the racial points for something else.

That's almost going to be a must have before we try to implement something like this. Otherwise we would have to make each suceesive level of a tech more expensive then the Last so players didn't just take the top level of each. If the Required Trait worked each level could be the same cost in racial points, and the higher levels would be more expensive by virtue of all the pre-requisite tech you'd have to buy. Would work much better.

Geoschmo

[Mark Walton]

Well, for the present time, I can't get two different tech levels to both be possible.

I think we may have to live with that; either change the tech are file as you suggested Geo, of accept that we are giving players access to an area of technology (which they may then research futher) rather than allowing a full pick-n-mix tech startup.

Of course, investigations will continue... yesterday morning I didn't even know this was possible, so who knows what tomorrow may bring?

[geoschmo]

I did a quick test of my idea of three seperate Fighter Tech Areas instead of one area with three levels. Works fine for the components. The only change required there is the Tech Area Requirement as I expected. Now all I have to do is repeat 500 times for all the other components. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

To make the AI play well in this universe you only have to worry about two files. The AI_General file and the AI_research file. The general file is where you would chose particualr starting techs for the AI race in question. Not really a problem, just have to rewrite the files and make sure you have the points calculated right. If we prefer, or are lazy we can even leave the general files the way they are. The AI just won't "buy" and starting techs and will have to research them the regular way.

The research file has to be changed obviously, but like the components file I think it won't be so hard, just take some time. The way the file works is there's a list of techs and Tech levels desired based on what AI state it is in currently. So if the file has an entry for Ship Construction, level 4, you ould replace that by four entries, Ship Con I, lvl 1, Ship Con II, lvl 1, Ship Con III, lvl 1, and so on. It should ignore the ones it already has researched, and ignore the ones it doesn't have the pre-requisite tech for. So it work the same, just be a much, much longer file.

Once that's done, the AI should operate as normal.

Geoschmo

[ 20 December 2001: Message edited by: geoschmo ]</p>

[Mark Walton]

Does this concept require it's own thread - to make sure all of the experienced modders (the Mod God Squad) get a chance to comment?

[geoschmo]

I dunno. It appears we have taken over this thread quite nicely. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I did a quick test of my idea of three seperate Fighter Tech Areas instead of one area with three levels. Works fine for the components. The only change required there is the Tech Area Requirement as I expected. Now all I have to do is repeat 500 times for all the other components.<hr></blockquote>I really suggest you write a small program to do that work for you, or, wait a few days for me to write the program for you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[geoschmo]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by suicide_junkie:
I really suggest you write a small program to do that work for you, or, wait a few days for me to write the program for you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif <hr></blockquote>
That would be awesome if you could put something together that would rewrite the TechArea.txt and Components.txt files. Ooo, could it do the AI research files too? That would be super swell. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I am trying to learn some programming, but really just got started and wouldn't have a clue how to do something like this. Well maybe a clue, but that's about it.

A program would be great too cause we could update it easily for Gold then instead of having to do it all over again.

I don't know how Mark feels, but I don't see a big rush. I guess we could release this without waiting for the Required Trait field in the Racial Traits text file, but I don't think it will take off until then. Too many ways for players to abuse it.

Geoshmo

[Phoenix-D]

"I guess we could release this without waiting for the Required Trait field in the Racial Traits text file, but I don't think it will take off until then."

MM's fixing that? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif How about the other restrictons?

Phoenix-D

[geoschmo]

I don't know if he is going to fix it or not. I requested it. But I request a lot of things. Some he does, some he doesn't. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I did get confirmation though that the limit on Racial Techs is like components. 64000-something. Shouldn't be a problem for this idea.

Geoschmo

[Mark Walton]

Great!
Don't listen to a thing I post for 8 hours or so -I have been drinking with Andy( This post took 25 mins to type)

[Mark Walton]

OK I'm feeling a bit better now.

Just to twist the intention of this thread even further:

Does anyone know a way to imbue a race with a "special" like movement bonus, immunity to plague etc once the game is in progress?

[geoschmo]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mark Walton:
Does anyone know a way to imbue a race with a "special" like movement bonus, immunity to plague etc once the game is in progress?<hr></blockquote>

You can modify the RacialTraits.txt file during the game, you just can't add or remove Racial Traits from the file or you won't be able to load the game file. You can change the Trait Type though and affect what the player actually gets for having that Racial Trait.

So if you wanted to do this you would set the Racial Traits file up with some dummy Racial Traits and assign those to a particular player. Then you later you change the Trait type to what you want them to have.

Once you make the change on the Host though you will have to send the players the new RacialTraits.txt file or the data file cheat check will not allow them to play their turn.

Geoschmo

[thubar2000]

This topic is kind of old, but I wonder how much work it would be for the starting number of research points to be adjustable? The 20k starting research points in a low tech game. If it were it would be round two instead the beginning of the game that everyone recieved the tech.

I also wonder if the choice of projects by the AIs are determined by the usual research mechanism or a special one set up for the game opening. If it's the usual AI, then it shouldn't be too painful.

Thu

[geoschmo]

You can do a high resource start and you will get 100,000 research points along with 100K of each resource. The AI uses their normal research scripts at the game start, but since they only queue a couple of projects they might lose a few points. Wouldn't be the end of the world though.

Geoschmo

[Skulky]

In regards to the special attribute would this be because of a new found ruin or tech that allows this. In a game (like Leagacy of Ancients) with a DM type host this coudl be very cool. Other players could look at the file to see what hte other person got so it would defeat any surprise. Also, could you make special intel projects, wih a dummy one that tells the host that the personactually spent htem and then the host could make the neceasary changes to the affected empire. just a thought.

[Lastseer]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by geoschmo:
The AI uses their normal research scripts at the game start, but since they only queue a couple of projects they might lose a few points. Wouldn't be the end of the world though.

Geoschmo<hr></blockquote>

So all that needs to be done is to allow unused research points to carry from turn to turn and then you have a full starting techs solution. (maybe degrade carried points by a small percentage like 5%, or allow carry over during the first 10 turns only.)

[Kimball]

I haven't read the entire thread so please excuse me if this was addressed earlier...

In SEIII if you put more points than needed toward a research project, they would carry over to the next level. It was possible to put, say, 100,000 points, toward a 10,000 point tech area and keep getting the next level each turn, until the points ran out. That was done away with in SEIV.

Is that what you are talking about? Just curious.

[Suicide Junkie]

A neat quirk of SE4:
1) put 50,000 points into a project that costs more than that.
2) Steal/Analyse/Trade for the tech you're working on (from step 1)
3) Your 50,000 points will have carried over to the next level!

In this way, you could have two empires researching the same tech area, leapfrogging over each other, and getting the full value of their combined output!
Useful areas to try it on would be Stellar Manip, planet usage, ship con, propulsion, crystalline weapons.

[Lastseer]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Kimball:
I haven't read the entire thread so please excuse me if this was addressed earlier...

In SEIII if you put more points than needed toward a research project, they would carry over to the next level. It was possible to put, say, 100,000 points, toward a 10,000 point tech area and keep getting the next level each turn, until the points ran out. That was done away with in SEIV.

Is that what you are talking about? Just curious.<hr></blockquote>

Acutally no. Right now say you are playing a high initial resource game (100k) or that you have even editted the configuration file to make this number larger, say 500k. If you do this, you must put at least that many points of research projects in the queue on your first turn or the remainder is lost. If you only put propulsion I (20k, I think) and physics (50k) in the queue. You'd get those techs and lose 430k research points.

If those research points stayed with you as if you had a research storage facility with infinite capacity (I tried giving this to all research facilities, but the ability doesn't exist for this resource type). You could spend the extras on propulsion II and physics II next turn and so on.

With this implementation every empire could start with 9 or 10 drastically different techs early in the game. (As opposed to everyone having just onle level in the mostly the same techs for a high resource start).

[ 04 January 2002: Message edited by: Lastseer ]

[ 04 January 2002: Message edited by: Lastseer ]</p>

[geoschmo]

Would be nice. There is currently no way to edit the resource start level. You only have the low (5000), medium (20K) and high (100K) options in the game setup screens. And no way to store research points, as you found. These would require hardcode changes. If we could get these, maybe we could just get the ability to have starting tech levels. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

If you read the whole thread we have talked about making a starting tech mod that uses racial points. It would require extensive changes to the data files though. SJ (I think it was SJ) offered to make a program to help with the modifications, but he must ahve got tied up on some other projects cause I haven't heard anything else from him. I guess I could do it by hand. If I start now I could probably have it ready by Christmas. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

As an alternative, I suppose you could have a 10 planet start. This would give you a ton of research points. You could agree among you to only build anything on one planet and then after X number of turns abandon all the rest. This would simulate your idea without too much in the way of modifications. You would have to change the settings.txt file to allow you to abandon a fully populated planet, or build cargo bases in orbit and transfer/jettison the population. And you'd have to trust the other players to do likewise.

Geoschmo

[geoschmo]

Ooo, I just thought of an easier way. You edit the facilities.txt file so that research facilities produce an obcene amount of research points at the start of the game. Then after X turns you swith back to normal data files. Start with one planet as normal. But those 5 research facilities on it could be pumpong out 20K or even more per turn each. Whatever you want.

Geoschmo

[Lastseer]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by geoschmo:
Ooo, I just thought of an easier way. You edit the facilities.txt file so that research facilities produce an obcene amount of research points at the start of the game. Then after X turns you swith back to normal data files. Start with one planet as normal. But those 5 research facilities on it could be pumpong out 20K or even more per turn each. Whatever you want.

Geoschmo<hr></blockquote>

I actually considered this and rejected it, because it gives more initial techs to those with advanced storage techniques (extra research facilities). Where as normally they'd only get a little extra in rate. [Actually I haven't verified this. Are the extra faicilites research or mineral? ]

However I have had no problem modifying the intial resource allocation in early verions of SEIV (haven't tried it in a while).

From what I understand the only code change required, would be to allow unused research points to accumulate. (Say for the first 5-10 turns, or with a 5% depreciation throughout the game). This should be a very minor code change and I've submitted it, but have not gotten a reply.

[ 04 January 2002: Message edited by: Lastseer ]

[ 04 January 2002: Message edited by: Lastseer ]</p>

[Lastseer]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by geoschmo:
Would be nice. There is currently no way to edit the resource start level. You only have the low (5000), medium (20K) and high (100K) options in the game setup screens. And no way to store research points, as you found. These would require hardcode changes. If we could get these, maybe we could just get the ability to have starting tech levels. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Geoschmo<hr></blockquote>
I agree that storage would require a code change. But this should be extremely minor (as other resources already work this way).
It would also be nice to have the starting resources be changeable the same way maximum units in space are configurable from the start screen. However this can be editted easily through a configuration file.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>geoschmo:
If you read the whole thread we have talked about making a starting tech mod that uses racial points. It would require extensive changes to the data files though. SJ (I think it was SJ) offered to make a program to help with the modifications, but he must ahve got tied up on some other projects cause I haven't heard anything else from him. I guess I could do it by hand. If I start now I could probably have it ready by Christmas. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
<hr></blockquote>
I've been following this thread since it started. Without a code change, it becomes unduly complicated to work around the existing limitations.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>geoschmo:
As an alternative, I suppose you could have a 10 planet start. This would give you a ton of research points. You could agree among you to only build anything on one planet and then after X number of turns abandon all the rest. This would simulate your idea without too much in the way of modifications. You would have to change the settings.txt file to allow you to abandon a fully populated planet, or build cargo bases in orbit and transfer/jettison the population. And you'd have to trust the other players to do likewise.
<hr></blockquote>

I don't think you could get the AI to do that.

[ 04 January 2002: Message edited by: Lastseer ]</p>

[geoschmo]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lastseer:


I actually considered this and rejected it, because it gives more initial techs to those with advanced storage techniques (extra research facilities). Where as normally they'd only get a little extra in rate.
<hr></blockquote>Actually, I don't think this is the case. IIRC the extra homeworld facilities for the advanced storage guys would all be mineral miners. Although I suppose it would be fairly easy for them to simply scrap some mineral miners and build some research fac's You could make the research fac's VERY expensive though to eliminate this. Then when you go back to stock files all will be as it should be. The only problem is that you wouldn't be building research fac's on your new colonies until the accelerated period is over. Dont' know if that's a huge deal for you or not. Guess it would depend on how long you want the fast period to Last.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>However I have had no problem modifying the intial resource allocation in early verions of SEIV (haven't tried it in a while).
<hr></blockquote>Huh?
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>From what I understand the only code change required, would be to allow unused research points to accumulate. (Say for the first 5-10 turns, or with a 5% depreciation throughout the game). This should be a very minor code change and I've submitted it, but have not gotten a reply.

[ 04 January 2002: Message edited by: Lastseer ]<hr></blockquote>
Good luck with that. I have no idea how easy or hard a change like that would be. I am always trying to find ways to do things without asking for hard code changes. Just a quirk of mine I guess. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

For that matter it may not even be an issue of difficulty. He may just not want to do that. Research and intel points are more intangible assets. He may not agree that you should be able to store them up.

But it can't hurt to ask I suppose.

Geo

[ 04 January 2002: Message edited by: geoschmo ]</p>

[Kimball]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by geoschmo:
Ooo, I just thought of an easier way. You edit the facilities.txt file so that research facilities produce an obcene amount of research points at the start of the game. Then after X turns you swith back to normal data files. Start with one planet as normal. But those 5 research facilities on it could be pumpong out 20K or even more per turn each. Whatever you want.

Geoschmo<hr></blockquote>

Isn't there some sort of "anti-cheat" that would prevent this. I would think that if you could edit the facilities.txt (or components.txt file for that matter) cheating during multiplayer games would be VERY easy.

I could allow my seeking parasites to do 1000 points of damage at a distance of 20 during my turn when I attack, while yours would only do 100 at 16 during your turn when you attack. Does that make sense?

[Phoenix-D]

" I would think that if you could edit the facilities.txt (or components.txt file for that matter) cheating during multiplayer games would be VERY easy."

Not exactly. See, you have to be the HOST for this to work- the host processes the turns. And if it appies to one, it applies to everyone.

There is, still, an "anit-cheat" code in, but again assuming you're the host, it can be bypassed.

Phoenix-D

[Kimball]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
" I would think that if you could edit the facilities.txt (or components.txt file for that matter) cheating during multiplayer games would be VERY easy."

Not exactly. See, you have to be the HOST for this to work- the host processes the turns. And if it appies to one, it applies to everyone.

There is, still, an "anit-cheat" code in, but again assuming you're the host, it can be bypassed.

Phoenix-D<hr></blockquote>

That makes sense, but what if you are playing turn based (different machines) instead of simltaneous? Different machines, different data files, dishonest person getting his butt kicked...

[geoschmo]

I suppose you are right Kimball. I am pretty sure just about everyone playing PBEM with SEIV is playing simultaneous turns. It can be played turn based, the same as SEIII, but I don't think too many do it that way.

But if they were that would definetly be an option for a dishonest person.

Geoschmo

[Phoenix-D]

Never done a MP seqential game, so I couldn't tell you.

Phoenix-D

[geoschmo]

Ok, here's my revised plan for a simulated starting tech level PBW/PBEM game.

The game owner creates the first turn using stock SEIV files. For best results use the 100K start, although this is not totally neccesary.

The players play the first turn using stock files. (They will have to as the cheat protection will not allow them to do otherwise.) Once all the .plr files are in, the game owner processes the first turn offline, using modified data files. The facilities.txt file will be changed so that the research facility does nothing, and the Space Yard facility produces research points (100K per turn? Any number you want I suppose) and cannot construct anything. And change the settigns.txt file to reduce the base empire usage rates to zero. The effect of these changes is that as long as the modified data files are being used, empires cannot build anything, only research at a highly accelerated rate. These files will have to be distributed to the players so they can play there turns during the accelerated phase.

After a suitable period (1 year?) the turn will be processed using stock files and the players can begin constructing again.

AI can be used with this, although as stated before they may not be terribly efficent in the early turns and may lose some points because they only stack a couple projects at a time.

This has advatages over my previous ides, because each race will have only one research producing facility (modified space yard) regardless of whethere they are advanced storage or not. When I tested the other idea they were getting an extra research facility, which is a 20% bonus over the other races. With this plan the only difference in research production will be because of cultural or physical characteristics. If you still think that is unfair, you could mod the culture file to remove that one. Nothing you can do about the characteristics, except ban players from having improved intelligence. I don't see it as a big problem though.

One possible problem I can see would be is your homeworld population became unhappy because no ships are beign built. I don't think this would happen unless an enemy was in the same system, and that shouldn't happen if the enemies can't build ships either. If it does we can modify the happiness text file too.

Comments? If there is interest in this I can set up a game with this.

Geoschmo

[Q]

Geoschmo your idea might work, but isn't it a real shame that you must perform such a complicated procedure to achieve something that was so easy to do in SE III?? Wouldn't it be possible to persuade MM to implement this in a future patch (if it is too late now for SE IV Gold)?

[geoschmo]

I don't know Q. I have no more influence over Malfador than anyone else. I am pretty sure it's been requested. Maybe if more people request it it will be done.

As far as my idea being complicated though, it's not really. Once the data files are set up, it's just a matter of using the mod selector to chose the proper files. No trouble at all really.

Geoschmo

[thubar2000]

I something weird happened to what I tried to post. Anyway, wouldn't it just be easier to make the initial tech points adjustable. I'm referring to the 20k at the beginning of a low tech game. In effect, the tech just arrives a round later.

This has the advantage of using an existing mechanism.

If the AI uses its usual way of choosing tech projects, this won't cause to much grief for Aaron. If it uses a different method, this may not be feasible.

Thu

[Suicide Junkie]

The key thing you've missed, Thubar, is that you need to be able to research deeper than one level in a tech.

Given the research system in SE4, you cannot have excess research spill over into the next tech level.

IE: in SE3, you could dump 100,000 research points into propulsion on turn 1, then add nothing more. On turn 2, you would get tech level two, and your progress bar would be full. On turn 3, you'd get level 3, and your bar would still be full.

In SE4, any excess points are lost, so players would all get tech level 1 or 2 in everything, and there'd be no variety.

[geoschmo]

Personally I was not all that great a fan of the starting tech levels system in SEIII anyway. You could get another level of propulsion for the same cost as a level of steallar manipulation. That didn't make much sense. There needed to be some way to factor in the variable cost in research for different techs.

Although I am sure it helped to speed up those Multiplayer games some. With simultaneous turns in SEIV that really isn't as much of a critical determining factor anymore.

If you don't want to research every tech every game, do a medium tech start. If that is too low, tweak the "raise levels" in the text file. If you don't want everybody to have the same tech start, you can try my idea. Or we can get back to work on the racial tech/start tech mod. The point is you have options. You don't have to wait for a code change that might not happen, and that not everyone would agree is a good idea.

Geoschmo

[thubar2000]

That's true, I did miss the aspect of going deeper than one tech level. Thanks for the correction.

Thubar