Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log

[samoht]

I'm unfamiliar with Desura, but I'm under the impression that the game will be available via download. Is there going to be an option to order a hard copy via snail-mail?

[AngelSong]

Thanks,Edi.
I buy a copy for desura.
they send key...before game sold.

[ioticus]

I'm ecstatic I can order it now. And only $25? I was expecting at least twice that much. I would happily pay much more than that as I can tell it will be a masterpiece, just like DOM3.

[samoht]

I would happily pay much more than that as I can tell it will be a masterpiece, just like DOM3.

SSHHHHHHH. They might hear you. :p

[JonBrave]

I'm ecstatic I can order it now. And only $25? I was expecting at least twice that much. I would happily pay much more than that as I can tell it will be a masterpiece, just like DOM3.

Do you think it's a disgrace to sell at that price, and you'd happily pay at least a $100?

[ ;) Rowan Atkinson; and I'm afraid if you're not British you prolly won't get it! ]

[ioticus]

I'm ecstatic I can order it now. And only $25? I was expecting at least twice that much. I would happily pay much more than that as I can tell it will be a masterpiece, just like DOM3.

Do you think it's a disgrace to sell at that price, and you'd happily pay at least a $100?

[ ;) Rowan Atkinson; and I'm afraid if you're not British you prolly won't get it! ]

I don't think it's a disgrace, just surprised at the price. Who's R Atkinson?

[samoht]

I'm ecstatic I can order it now. And only $25? I was expecting at least twice that much. I would happily pay much more than that as I can tell it will be a masterpiece, just like DOM3.

Do you think it's a disgrace to sell at that price, and you'd happily pay at least a $100?

[ ;) Rowan Atkinson; and I'm afraid if you're not British you prolly won't get it! ]

I don't think it's a disgrace, just surprised at the price. Who's R Atkinson?

In the USA he is most commonly known as Mr. Bean, but he has played many other characters. The guy is hilarious.

[Mimed]

Fallen Enchantress beta and now this.. gonna be a good TBS weekend.

Illwinter, :you:

[ioticus]

Is there a way to tell the statistics of a unit before you recruit it? I thought right clicking would work but it doesn't do anything.

Also, the "?" shortcut for hot keys doesn't seem to work.

[Gandalf Parker]

Is this about CoE3 or CoE2?
Linux? Windows? Mac?

[ioticus]

Is this about CoE3 or CoE2?
Linux? Windows? Mac?

This is CoE3 (v. 2.91) on Windows.

[Gandalf Parker]

The ? works for me.
But for that, and the unit info, Id highly recommend Edi's manual for the game
For now you mostly have to learn the units for each nation. At least until a player wiki is setup

[ioticus]

The ? works for me.
But for that, and the unit info, Id highly recommend Edi's manual for the game
For now you mostly have to learn the units for each nation. At least until a player wiki is setup

The ? is working for me now too. Don't know why it didn't before.

[ioticus]

I've gotten 3 program not responding crashes so far. Anyone else have that problem?

[samoht]

will there be a hard copy available to purchase?

[ioticus]

Was the game supposed to be released early in a beta state? I ask because people are reporting they can't download the game after I posted that I got the beta. Also, the game is crashing constantly (I lost track of the number of times) on my computer with program not responding errors. I hope the final version is more stable for me.

[Gandalf Parker]

I did not get the impression it was to be released yet. No
It was supposed to be a pre-order only AFAIK

[Strabo]

Made a pre-order. This will be a birthday gift for me and from me.

[Edi]

Yes, the game was supposed to be preorder only at this point, with actual release on Feb 20th. If Desura allows downloads already, they've screwed up somewhere and are in breach of contract.

If they closed that security hole, good for them.

None of us are going to give any guarantees of the beta working if you got your hands on it. For me, it has been rock solid on Windows XP, the only crashes I ever got were bugs that were fixed in short order or loading a save game from a too old earlier version.

In that respect, it would be interesting to know what version of the OS you have, ioticus.

[Johan K]

Ioticus, sorry about that. The beta was never supposed to be downloadable from Desura. I screwed up some date configuration on Desura, it is hard to figure out what everything does there. I have not been able to set up downloads for myself and beta testers either yet, so you're the first one to have downloaded it from Desura. But I hope I will learn how it works soon, in the meantime you can try out the beta as a bonus for preordering at exactly the right time ;) And the crashes was a bit unlucky with that one version, usually the betas are fully stable.

[ioticus]

Yes, the game was supposed to be preorder only at this point, with actual release on Feb 20th. If Desura allows downloads already, they've screwed up somewhere and are in breach of contract.

If they closed that security hole, good for them.

None of us are going to give any guarantees of the beta working if you got your hands on it. For me, it has been rock solid on Windows XP, the only crashes I ever got were bugs that were fixed in short order or loading a save game from a too old earlier version.

In that respect, it would be interesting to know what version of the OS you have, ioticus.

I'm on Windows 7 64 bit.

[ioticus]

Ioticus, sorry about that. The beta was never supposed to be downloadable from Desura. I screwed up some date configuration on Desura, it is hard to figure out what everything does there. I have not been able to set up downloads for myself and beta testers either yet, so you're the first one to have downloaded it from Desura. But I hope I will learn how it works soon, in the meantime you can try out the beta as a bonus for preordering at exactly the right time ;) And the crashes was a bit unlucky with that one version, usually the betas are fully stable.

I'm enjoying the game except for the frequent crashes. It's 4 am and I'm still playing despite the problem. When you say it was a bit unlucky for that one version, do you mean that the version has a bug you are aware of that would affect others as well? I'm a bit worried that the problem will persist for me in the final version.

[AngelSong]

I pre-order coe3 from Desura yesterday,and play coe2 today^^
May I play coe3 demo before chinese new year holiday end?(2/22-2/28)

[Edi]

The dev log lists a crash bug as being fixed, so I expect that it will not persist in the final version. Also, DRAGONS! Yay!

I really need to get myself Windows 7, but that means getting a new computer too. Of course, at that point I will turn the old machine to a Linux box.

[Bossman]

I think it would have been a good idea to let everyone who preorder access the beta. That would have helped you to get more feedback about the game.

[Gandalf Parker]

The music was one of the last things added. The short test music worked allright but apparently the full music files caused the crash problem. Fixed now. Thanks Iod (I was still trying to figure out what was crashing my beta)

[ioticus]

During combat, the combat messages go by so fast that I miss most of it. Is there a way to slow it down and/or rewind the battle so you can review what is happening? As it is now I can't follow the text that scrolls while also watching the battle unfold.

[Gandalf Parker]

Do a ? in the battle to see the battle keypresses

[ioticus]

Do a ? in the battle to see the battle keypresses

That does help a little as I didn't know you could pause and slow down the battle. However, the scroll function doesn't work when the battle is paused and there is no way to rewind the battle. Once the battle is over, it ends and you have no chance to go back and review it.

[Gandalf Parker]

I pause it, then use the up arrow. That moves back the messages.

Im not sure if it matters but I also use --battlereports as a switch. I got tired of watching EVERY fight. With battlereports on I only get a message on it, then I can view from there like Dom3 did

[ioticus]

I pause it, then use the up arrow. That moves back the messages.

Im not sure if it matters but I also use --battlereports as a switch. I got tired of watching EVERY fight. With battlereports on I only get a message on it, then I can view from there like Dom3 did

OK, I was using page up/down to scroll. There should be a way to play the battle over again if you want to.

[ioticus]

I thought I read damage rolls are not open ended. But during one battle report a unit took 32 points of damage from a bite (it was from a bird like creature called ZiZ) that has a damage range of 1-21. The unit even blocked the attack, reducing damage by 4. He was immobile and damage was increased by 1 according to the report. How do you account for that?

[WraithLord]

Congrats IW for hitting this major milestone :clap:

I'm sure this game is great and I hope it will sell well.

Here's to your next project :cheers:, be it what it may (dom-IV of course) :)

[Technomancer]

Are mac users likely to be able to purchase the game before the preorder period is over and initial game release? From what I remember way back yon Desura was originally angling as being compatible with linux macos and windows close to release, but it's been a while now and I can't find any, at all, news about their progress on mac compatibility.

I've been looking forward to coe3 for a good long time, if worst comes to worst I'll purchase the win version and try it through wine, until a purchase option comes around.
Sorry if this sounds ranty, I'll still buy this come what may, illwinter's games are amazing, and it's not your issue so much as desuras.

[Gandalf Parker]

I pause it, then use the up arrow. That moves back the messages.

Im not sure if it matters but I also use --battlereports as a switch. I got tired of watching EVERY fight. With battlereports on I only get a message on it, then I can view from there like Dom3 did

OK, I was using page up/down to scroll. There should be a way to play the battle over again if you want to.
There is if you use --battlereports because each battle is a message with a "view" button

[Gandalf Parker]

I've been looking forward to coe3 for a good long time, if worst comes to worst I'll purchase the win version and try it through wine, until a purchase option comes around.
Sorry if this sounds ranty,
Heehee.
Well they are planning to release it next month. Im not sure how but the Mac version should be out then also

[Edi]

I thought I read damage rolls are not open ended. But during one battle report a unit took 32 points of damage from a bite (it was from a bird like creature called ZiZ) that has a damage range of 1-21. The unit even blocked the attack, reducing damage by 4. He was immobile and damage was increased by 1 according to the report. How do you account for that?

If anyone told you that damage was not open-ended, chances are they were under the influence of something mind altering, but I don't remember anyone from the beta test team actually saying that. I remember saying that damage was open-ended, which is roughly the only way you can count for a 1d8 damage crossbow doing 32 points of damage on a manticore.

Note that targets that get hit also get an open ended armor roll (no idea of what the die is), since otherwise it would be impossible for a Troll King to do 1 point of damage on unarmored targets (1d3 + 25 damage)

[ioticus]

If anyone told you that damage was not open-ended, chances are they were under the influence of something mind altering, but I don't remember anyone from the beta test team actually saying that.

It's probably just my bad memory. I'm looking forward to reading your manual. Any idea on how many pages it will be?

[Doo]

Any word on an official forum?

I assume not here as not released by Shrapnel?

[ioticus]

Im not sure if it matters but I also use --battlereports as a switch. I got tired of watching EVERY fight. With battlereports on I only get a message on it, then I can view from there like Dom3 did

Thanks Gandalf, --battlereports works great and is just what I was looking for. It should be standard IMHO.

[ioticus]

I have a UI suggestion. It can sometimes be hard to see exactly where you are recruiting on the recruit screen, especially when you have a lot of recruitment sites on the map, since it covers most of the map. I know you can right click the location to center it, but often times you can't see where it is because the map is blocked by the UI. It would be nice if you could right click a location directly on the map and recruit from there. That way, you can be sure you are recruiting in the right place.

[Gandalf Parker]

You can. Its a long right-click
(good idea btw ) :)

[ioticus]

You can. Its a long right-click
(good idea btw ) :)

Great, looks like they thought of everything :)

[AngelSong]

You can. Its a long right-click
(good idea btw ) :)

Great, looks like they thought of everything :)

How lucky. I want play demo too:(

[ioticus]

It appears the description of poisoned is wrong. It says if an enemy attacks the poisoned unit the attacker is poisoned. Is the description incorrect?

Also, "action points left" is misspelled as "acton" points left.

[Flop]

Alright, I just sat down and read through the whole thread, and since some of the testers have volunteered to answer questions, I'd like to know a little bit more about the magic system.

Specifically, I'd like to know some of the ways that mages gain spells (and the ability to cast higher level spells). I noticed that the changelog mentions libraries, so I guess that might be one way, but I'd like to know more. Examples would be welcome, and so would more screenshots. :)

I'm one of the guys who thought that pre-ordering would get me beta access, so now that I've actually become interested, I need more information to take the sting off my disappointment (no hard feeling, though, ioticus. I certainly don't regret having pre-ordered :)).

[Edi]

It appears the description of poisoned is wrong. It says if an enemy attacks the poisoned unit the attacker is poisoned. Is the description incorrect?

Also, "action points left" is misspelled as "acton" points left.

Thanks for these reports. The poison stuff is a good catch, I think I last checked that ten versions ago or thereabouts. Both have been reported.

Flop, to learn new spells, Magic Libraries and Cities (which contain libraries) allow learning new spells. All class mages learn new spells when they perform a ritual of mastery and upgrade to a more powerful caster.

For all other mages (like Golden Wizards), the only way to learn new spells is through a library and the only way to learn higher level spells is to possess a magic booster item and then learn the spell at a library. Sometimes you get lucky when you recruit a wizard and they already have a magic booster item (either general booster or a booster for the correct path), in which case they automatically have higher level spells.

When you get a lucky break like that, you generally pile every possible item that increases survival chances on them, because they can be that game changing. Some of the best spells in the game are in the esoteric (i.e. non-class) paths at higher levels.

[Gandalf Parker]

There are also magic scrolls which are an item you can find in the game. Finding one that grants a high level spell can be quite handy. Usually you get it as a prize for taking a difficult site. Sometimes you can glance at a site you are thinking to attack and see that a mage is there with a scroll which is one of those items that can totally decide the attack/no-attack question for you

Unlike Dom3 there does not seem to be a random about picking up items after a battle. If its a helmet, then you will get it after the battle as long as you have someone who has a helmet slot open

[Flop]

Thanks guys, it sounds pretty good. Concerning the sites, can I ask what kinds are in the game? I've been playing a bit of CoE2, in anticipation of this game, and apart from various kinds of settlements, forts and mines, there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of different kinds of sites. Off the top of my head, I think the only ones I've seen are temples, gallows and battlefields (although there are probably more).

Hearing about libraries, I'm hoping there will be more of that sort of sites, as in sites that offer something special and specific.

[Gandalf Parker]

many. a labyrinth, a sphinx, a mystical column, silver mine, gold stream, shadow wood, archmage citadel, cloud castle, beholder cave, palace of the mountain lord, majaraha palace, brigand lair, dwarven city, elven forest, hoburg factory, skull cave, ziggurat, haunted city, and many many more. Some of the ones I didnt name which (Im looking at the list in the code) I havent even seen yet are spurring my curiosity.

[ioticus]

I haven't been able to actually use any special sites in the game. When I right click the site or use the "o" hot key, nothing happens or I get a message that I can't use it now. Are special sites implemented yet or am I doing something wrong?

[Edi]

Whenever a site has a special power and you go there with a commander, there should be a new command in his orders menu to activate the site specific power. Usually it says "Activate special power" or something like that. The o key is just a shortcut for that. Not all special sites have a special power.

Stonehenge, Ship Stones and Crystal Globe have powers that I know of, haven't seen others yet.

[Gandalf Parker]

Many of the special powers can only be used at certain times. Such as certain seasons

[Mimed]

Starting to get a handle with how things work in the game, slowly. I wish an accidental manual came with the accidental beta. :p

Where are the saves stored? I'm using windows 7

[Gandalf Parker]

You tell us. Im not sure if we have a Win7 tester :)

At the moment here is my favorite settings. Random Map but extra large (77x77). Society age is left random altho I love Dark Ages. Clustered Start and Common Cause both ON for allies. I dont particlarly like Southern Terrain but I dont turn it off or limit its size. All nations are set to Knight level. 4 2-nation teams. I will have one AI as my partner

And then the best of all. Figuring out which nations work best together on the same team. Some good ones are Baron and Druid, Baron and Burgmeister, Cultist and Senator, Troll King and Dwarf Queen

[Edi]

The save locations are in the manual, but there is no manual in any of the beta versions, since it's not quite complete yet. Getting there fast, though.

[ioticus]

Chest wound and battle fright are missing their descriptions.

[HangPhyr]

Everyday I'm beating myself up over missing out on the beta being accidentally distributed.. :(

[ioticus]

Confusion is missing a description.

[ioticus]

Everyday I'm beating myself up over missing out on the beta being accidentally distributed.. :(

Don't beat yourself up too bad, it's not your fault :D

[Mimed]

I found the saves in C:/users/[name]/AppData/Roaming/coe3

Haven't had any crashes so Win7 seems to be playing nice.

How are you guys enabling this --battlereports thing?

[Mimed]

Nevermind, I figured it out. Had to start a new game for it to take effect.

[ioticus]

Horror mark is missing a description.

[Flop]

Everyday I'm beating myself up over missing out on the beta being accidentally distributed.. :(

Yeah, I'm still trying to download it a couple of times a day. It's pathetic, really. :D

[AngelSong]

Everyday I'm beating myself up over missing out on the beta being accidentally distributed.. :(

Yeah, I'm still trying to download it a couple of times a day. It's pathetic, really. :D

Me too.

[Jack_Trowell]

Same here, too bad I preordered just after the leak was fixed ... :D

Thanks for all the informations anyway.

[Strider]

I've been testing on Win7 since the start, and have had no issues. I see someone found the path for saved games.

[Gandalf Parker]

Oh sorry Strider. Didnt realize what OS you had.

[AngelSong]

Does coe3 have monster info like dom3？

[Edi]

Do you mean shift-i? No.

[AngelSong]

Do you mean shift-i? No.

hah,I mean description about monster,such as story,backgound etc.
If coe3 have this point,can paste some game picture^^

[Flop]

Do you mean shift-i? No.

hah,I mean description about monster,such as story,backgound etc.
If coe3 have this point,can paste some game picture^^

I see what you mean. In some of the screenshots, you can see the weapons and stats of some of the monsters, but there's no description.

I hadn't actually noticed this before, but I'd like to know, too, if there are discriptions elsewhere. I hope there are, because I love reading the background stuff in Dominions, and would love to see some of that in this game.

[AngelSong]

Do you mean shift-i? No.

hah,I mean description about monster,such as story,backgound etc.
If coe3 have this point,can paste some game picture^^

I see what you mean. In some of the screenshots, you can see the weapons and stats of some of the monsters, but there's no description.

I hadn't actually noticed this before, but I'd like to know, too, if there are discriptions elsewhere. I hope there are, because I love reading the background stuff in Dominions, and would love to see some of that in this game.

Thanks Flop,I love read this story too.
see inbox

[Gandalf Parker]

Sorry. Im also heavily RPG and love the story text. But in CoE3 the only extensive story text is of the nations. And much of that seems to be Edi's work. We arent seeing as much of Kristoffer in this project as we did in Dom3

[AngelSong]

Sorry. Im also heavily RPG and love the story text. But in CoE3 the only extensive story text is of the nations. And much of that seems to be Edi's work. We arent seeing as much of Kristoffer in this project as we did in Dom3
Thanks Gandalf Parker tell me this news.:doh:
So sadly...
My friend and I pre-order coe3 for Desura,look video again and again.we dont mind if there are bugs in the game.we are just interested in playing asap;)

[Edi]

Most of what I did for the class descriptions was minor editing to correct typos and introduce word variation and smooth the flow of the text.

I did some more extensive work on the High Priestess and Priest King. I did some alteration on the Senator and added a bit of descriptive text for the Pale Ones. I also did some extension and rewriting of the Burgmeister, but did not actually create new content for that.

So it's either Johan or Kristoffer who produced the material. My role was to sand down the rough edges and make it all polished and shiny.

[MrSafin]

Will the game only be available on Desura or will i be able to preorder directly through Illwinter's website?

[Edi]

Currently it is only available through Desura and preorders through Illwinter directly are not on the cards.

[Ragnarok-X]

So i need Desura to play it ?

[Gandalf Parker]

I dont think so. Its just orders on Desura.
Or it was supposed to be. Some downloads got thru.

[Jack_Trowell]

I think that the question was more in order to know if having desura installed/running is required to play the game (like Steam) or if it is only needed to install/update the game, but not after that (like Impulse)

[SsSam]

Better yet is it needed to install the game or only to download it?

[Ragnarok-X]

Dark Times. I mean its great there is no publisher like shrapnel that is still charging 50 bucks years after the release, but then again, i have steam but lots of games, but i dont feel like registering/using a second app just for one game.

[Mimed]

If the leaked beta is any indication of what the full release will be like, you only need Desura to download (and I assume, update) the game.

So it's more like Impulse than Steam.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

Based on the amount of forum posts the Dominions franchise seems to be much more popular than the Conquest of Elysium franchise.
Is CoE2 just older and therefore not as known and popular, or are there any gameplay issues that weren't liked that much from the players?

Never played a CoE game, but it sounds like a mixture of a turn-based Dota and Dominions. Is this assumption kind of correct? Any comparable games?

If I like games like Dominions, Dota, FFH2, will I also like CoE3?
What key improvements does it have that make it better than it not so popular predecessor?

[Edi]

The main improvements would be better graphics, a user interface that works without needing to guess a whole lot of thing and a lot more content than CoE2.

If you try CoE2 (available as a free download from Shrapnel) and then take a look at the CoE3 development screenshots, you will see the difference.

Unfortunately no CoE3 demo quite yet.

[Gandalf Parker]

Other game companies might create a limited demo early to generate interest and sales. But Illwinter tends to create the game, and then create a demo from that. IMHO I think its better that way since then the free demo tends to give a more real answer for how it plays on your system.
But it IS really irritating to have to wait. :)

[Gandalf Parker]

Another diff between CoE3 and Dom3 is that Dom3 kindof broke the scenario abilities that were in Dom2.
In CoE3 scenarios are back big-time. Trigger events for who owns what, or enters what location; and so far there are 23 different result result codes for a trigger, each with variables extending that code. And all of it as Map commands.

So not only can we have downloadable edited maps for when the game starts, we can also have maps with programmed events to layout a scenario affecting the game as it progresses. I cant WAIT to see what this community comes up with. And Im expecting Johan to keep adding even after the game is released. Im excited about downloadable Scenarios for CoE3

[Flop]

Another diff between CoE3 and Dom3 is that Dom3 kindof broke the scenario abilities that were in Dom2.
In CoE3 scenarios are back big-time. Trigger events for who owns what, or enters what location; and so far there are 23 different result result codes for a trigger, each with variables extending that code. And all of it as Map commands.

So not only can we have downloadable edited maps for when the game starts, we can also have maps with programmed events to layout a scenario affecting the game as it progresses. I cant WAIT to see what this community comes up with. And Im expecting Johan to keep adding even after the game is released. Im excited about downloadable Scenarios for CoE3

I haven't played Dominions 2, so I'm not entirely sure what this means. Could you give an example of one of these events?

[vladikus]

Well, if it isn't you all. I would like a couple statistics from the beta testers and those who received the leaked version: if you play 10 games, how many do you usually win (based on difficulty levels if there are any.. are there? I read through other posts but may have missed a few)?

I want to know how challenging and difficult the game is in single player. I enjoy facing superhuman odds and losing (thanks Nethack and DC: Stone Soup).

Also, how long does an average game last in singleplayer (based on difficulty levels if there are any--if this is too much work, then disregard this question)?

Looking forward to playing some multiplayer with you all when the game is released. Take care of yourselves.

[Edi]

Regarding the events:

There are 10 different triggers and 23 possible types of events (some of which must be used in conjunction with others because the affect the object created by the preceding event (e.g. renaming a commander), but let's take an example event that could be constructed:

A player (can be specified so that only one player, or many, or even all of them get this) arriving at a specific square (say Cloud Castle) gets a message that tells him to go to travel to the Pit of Doom to slay the Wyrm Glaurung and to bring back the Staff of the Archmagi to receive powerful allies as a reward.

Going to the Pit of Doom (a pit renamed by map commands) causes the player to fight the guards and when he conquers the square, an event gives him the Staff of the Archmagi. When he returns to the Cloud Castle, the presence of the staff with his troops triggers an event that creates a commander and number of troops who join the player's army.

And that's just scratching the surface.

[Flop]

Man, that sounds absolutely awesome!

Are there any scenarios in the game already, or is this just a framework for users to create their own?

[Edi]

Vladikus:

Single player is challenging enough. Out of 10 games, depending on how careful you are and how lucky you are, playing against Knight level AI (power level 4 on a scale of 1-10), you can expect to win maybe two or three. A lot depends on how lucky the AI gets and if it survives the early game, where random instances of bad luck have a greater chance of wiping it out.

If a Knight AI gets out of the early game, it's liable to bury you up to your ears in stuff if you didn't manage to expand quickly. Depending on what class it plays, of course.

Note that a Knight level AI only gets a 50% income boost (the bonuses affect all income, gold iron and special resources, possibly also trade points). The reference level AI is Jester (level 2), which has no bonuses or handicaps.

Crank the AI up to Emperor (level 10), which has a 500% bonus to income and you won't know what hit you. Or you will, when you realize that the massive army you just barely defeated by the skin of your teeth was the lightly armed scouting foray moving ahead of the main force.

There's plenty of challenge, since each class has a separately programmed AI, so they can make the most of what they have and the level bonuses give them more to work with. E.g. if you play a Warlock against an Emperor Warlock, on your starting gem income you can make your first summon on turn 10. The Emperor AI will be making its first summon on turn 2. The power difference starts diverging fast...

[st.patrik]

I want to know how challenging and difficult the game is in single player. I enjoy facing superhuman odds and losing (thanks Nethack and DC: Stone Soup).

I don't think you'll have any lack of challenge. There are 10 levels of opponent difficulty. I currently play level 3 (the default) and I have a hard time staying up with independents and also holding opponents at bay with most classes.

EDIT - beat me to it Edi!

[Edi]

Man, that sounds absolutely awesome!

Are there any scenarios in the game already, or is this just a framework for users to create their own?
Framework.

Creating a viable scenario is still going to be a lot of work. Comparably more so than map creation in Dominions 3. Depending on how much stuff (such as renaming squares) can be put into the map editor instead of needing manual text editing of the file, it could become easier than it is now. But the event stuff needs to be handcoded because there are too many variables for most of them.

There are a couple of map editor related requests that have been put forth to increase its user friendliness and ease of use, time will tell what will become of those.

[Ragnarok-X]

Is it as moddable as Dom 3 ? Cause mods are where the fun it at. Lately, basicly every stock i game i play, wether it be indie or "big name", stock content sucks donkeyballs.

[ioticus]

I'm still learning the game, but I'm having a real tough time beating the Jester (no bonuses) AI.

[Edi]

Is it as moddable as Dom 3 ? Cause mods are where the fun it at. Lately, basicly every stock i game i play, wether it be indie or "big name", stock content sucks donkeyballs.
The stock content here certainly does not suck donkey balls, since it is very much varied.

There is no modding support as of yet. Johan is on record here on this forum saying that there will not probably be modding capability at release, but that it may be added in a patch later. That's all we know.

But when you take the timeframe into account (release on February 20th), adding in modding capability and all the commands, syntax etc, testing that AND writing a manual on par with the game manual and map editor guide, I'm guessing you can take him at his word.

I could be wrong and if I am, you lot can forget about getting any more pre-release info from me, since I'll be too busy writing the damned modding manual to pay any attention to this place... ;)

[Ragnarok-X]

I sure hope you are right. Honestly, nothing can replace a modding community. We could create new units, artwork, leaders, spells, everything. If there is going to be no mod support, i will be greatly demoralized. In fact, i think i might only order the game once modding is in and the first "basic" mods are out. thanks for your efforts so far.

[Gandalf Parker]

I think that the scenario Map commands will help fill the void at least for awhile. It seems to be that they are extensive enough that even Johan doesnt have a full idea of what is going to be possible. Im looking forward to what this community does with it.

[Gandalf Parker]

Well, if it isn't you all. I would like a couple statistics from the beta testers and those who received the leaked version:
I REALLY wish I could give you answers. Its not that Im not allowed to, its just that even after 6 months of playing every day I just dont know.

if you play 10 games, how many do you usually win (based on difficulty levels if there are any.. are there? I read through other posts but may have missed a few)?The problem with this one is that as much as I WANT to finish a game, that isnt really part of beta testing. At least, not my part. So I have to start a game, play into it just far enough to feel as if Ive seen most of what that nation gets, then start another. I have to try all of the nations, in as many game variables as I can come up with. I also have to try and test all of the server features, and should try to test the mapping things. I feel guilty when I take one of the games too far just because Im having too much fun playing it. ALSO there is the fact that Johan regularly cranks out another version which often makes the old games worthless if not completely unloadable. Some balance experts and well known veteran players were invited to be beta but I havent seen if they have any answers yet

I want to know how challenging and difficult the game is in single player. I enjoy facing superhuman odds and losing (thanks Nethack and DC: Stone Soup). Im having fun. I started by knocking them down one step (Jester level), graduated up to the default level (Baron), and now I play with them one step higher (Knight) altho I tend to play with one AI ally also set to Knight level. So Im playing at level 4 of 10. The last couple of levels really jump up. Also, I havent even begun the options such as teaming up the AIs and cluster locations for them.

Also, how long does an average game last in singleplayer (based on difficulty levels if there are any--if this is too much work, then disregard this question)?Again, Im not really supposed to be finishing games. I have played the games continuously for a full day before deciding I was at the point of just general cleanup (I had achieved pretty much all levels and now its down to fighting it out). Sometimes for 2 days straight before feeling like I could foretell the outcome. But I should mention I also play on abnormally large maps with max numbers of AIs

[Edi]

st.patrik has started a CoE3 AAR (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=48279).

[Doo]

What happens with resources in a team match? Is it a case of first there gets the resource to eternity or can I "steal" my allies resources?

[Gandalf Parker]

An ally can not fight an ally so if any unit is there then you cannot take it. However if your ally does not leave at least one unit there then you can take ownership by just walking into it.

Sometimes an AI ally will take a resource from you. But I figure it happens about as often as it would with human players :) It is best to select an ally who does not need the same type of resource as you.

Also, I can actually manipulate an AI ally almost as if it was a human player by deciding which resources to pull my guards off of. Especially allowing him to take a site such as a Castle where he can recruit if that castle is in an area I wish he would concentrate on. (all of this is much easier with a human player of course)

[vladikus]

Does the recruitment screen look like COE2 (click on text) or Dom3 (click on unit picture)? I had some trouble in Dom3 differentiating between very similar types of units based on their appearance at the recruitment screen.

Thanks for the answers thus far (throughout the thread).

[Gandalf Parker]

Its Click on Text.
However the drawback of that is that you cannot right-click for stats before recruiting. You have to remember what each one is. For some of them the names are kindof confusing. I have a notepad file on them for my own reminding

[ioticus]

Its Click on Text.
However the drawback of that is that you cannot right-click for stats before recruiting. You have to remember what each one is. For some of them the names are kindof confusing. I have a notepad file on them for my own reminding

Is it a programming issue or design issue that you can't right click to see stats before recruiting? Because I would really like to be able to do that.

[Gandalf Parker]

I dont know. I think its been requested

[elmokki]

Its Click on Text.
However the drawback of that is that you cannot right-click for stats before recruiting. You have to remember what each one is. For some of them the names are kindof confusing. I have a notepad file on them for my own reminding

Is it a programming issue or design issue that you can't right click to see stats before recruiting? Because I would really like to be able to do that.

It most definitely is a design issue. I'm extremely surprised if it isn't.

If the game knows what type of unit will be recruited and can display a name, it should definitely be able to get the data on other stats too.

[Edi]

New AAR (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?p=793640), chronicling the adventures of a necromancer during the time of the Fallen Empire.

[Gandalf Parker]

OK change. The recruit screen DOES now show an image and DOES now allow right-click to see stats

[AngelSong]

Does the recruitment screen look like COE2 (click on text) or Dom3 (click on unit picture)? I had some trouble in Dom3 differentiating between very similar types of units based on their appearance at the recruitment screen.

Thanks for the answers thus far (throughout the thread).
2.94 made this question solved.
Pictures and information on recruitables.

[Gandalf Parker]

Ooh Im enjoying the new move delays. Instead of everything jumping instantly to new positions and having to reread the whole map to get an idea of what happened, now I can put delays on AIs and Independents separately. I have a slow delay on AIs (almost human speed) and a faster delay on Indeps so I can still get an impression of where they moved from and to. Now I can watch the game being played by anyone else in my visual range.

Also it seems to be a switch that can be changed midgame. Which is good because Im thinking late in the game I might not like the speeds I have it at. But for now its a very fun change. Thanks Johan.

[vladikus]

"Conquest of Elysium 3 will be released at the latest on 20th February"

The phrase "at the latest" gives me some hope...

Just so I'm not launching unproductive and wistful posts into the forum stratosphere, here is another question: can you craft items and equip commanders with crafted items to create SCs as in Dominions 3? In my readings about the game, I just remember encountering information that one could equip items that were found/looted.

[Edi]

You can find items, but they cannot be crafted. Just as well, otherwise everyone would craft Pendant of the Gods and a couple of other absolutely insane booster items on the bigger summons and go to town with them. No thank you.

[Gandalf Parker]

Another good question. Yes at this point its only loot then equip.
On the plus side, CoE3 adds slots to EVERY unit. I cant think of any I have seen with no slots. So your frontline infantry can be given a better sword. Or your statue or monster usually has at least a couple of misc slots.

If you added forging to that I think the game could get crazy fast.

[Gandalf Parker]

I dont want to jinx that release date but it seems that the closer it gets, the bigger the changes that get put in. Im getting nervous about testing every little thing as much as possible instead of my temptation to just start playing the game now.

[vladikus]

Just as well, otherwise everyone would craft Pendant of the Gods and a couple of other absolutely insane booster items on the bigger summons and go to town with them. No thank you.

I'll second that and am very VERY glad that items cannot be crafted.

On the plus side, CoE3 adds slots to EVERY unit. I cant think of any I have seen with no slots. So your frontline infantry can be given a better sword. Or your statue or monster usually has at least a couple of misc slots.

If you added forging to that I think the game could get crazy fast.

Fantastic! Thanks again to you both.

[Edi]

On the plus side, CoE3 adds slots to EVERY unit. I cant think of any I have seen with no slots.
I can. :D

Lesser elemental creatures (cloud elemental, lesser water, fire and earth, as well as water, fire, earth and air elemental) have no item slots at all, nor do will-o'the-wisp and creeping doom.

But that's the ones with no slots in total, I think.

[ioticus]

I'm loving the changes (descriptions and movement) in the new build.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

Liked the Necromancer report. Gives a good impression about what's about to come and how it plays. Very nice. :)

[onomastikon]

Excuse me, hoping this place might be right for this question:

I love Dominions3 for my multiplayer itch, and find it vastly suboptimal for my single-player needs. Am I right in understanding that COE3 is almost the other way around? That is, it is designed as a single-player game and will come with a dedicated, halfway challenging AI? Or am I mistaken? Any verbose discourse on the AI / SP-applicability of this would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

[Edi]

Liked the Necromancer report. Gives a good impression about what's about to come and how it plays. Very nice. :)

If you liked the Necro AAR so far, you're going to love the latest update! :D


Excuse me, hoping this place might be right for this question:

I love Dominions3 for my multiplayer itch, and find it vastly suboptimal for my single-player needs. Am I right in understanding that COE3 is almost the other way around? That is, it is designed as a single-player game and will come with a dedicated, halfway challenging AI? Or am I mistaken? Any verbose discourse on the AI / SP-applicability of this would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

You came to the right place to ask, yes. And you're correct on all counts. CoE3 is much more a SP game, but it also has excellent multiplayer capabilities if you like to set up an MP game with a couple of friends. The MP side is very much blitz, but SP is challenging and each of the 17 (so far) classes has a separately programmed AI.

Gandalf can discuss the AI in more detail, since he has paid more attention to that side, but since there are separate AIs, they usually know what they are doing and can be surprisingly competent. I've gotten steamrolled a few of times even by level 4 (out of 10) AI and if you ramp it up much more than that (depending on what you play yourself), you're going to get smashed to pulp.

[Gandalf Parker]

As Edi pointed out, each nation has a unique AI playing to that nations strengths and faults. In Dom3 there was one generic nation trying to work the same for all nations. Yes the AI definitely makes a challenging enemy. On the other hand, you can also team up with the AI. It makes a surprisingly competent ally. Its best to pick a nation that does not have the same resource requirements that you do.

I really doubt there will be much play of a human vs all maximum AIs in this game. But it could be fun to ally all against one max AI.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

I wonder why CoE3 should be more for single player than multi player in comparison to Dom3.
Usually, games with a faster pace are better for MP because they don't take so long.
Especially if CoE3 has a good AI, it would be perfect for cooperative MP games vs. the AI.

I only tried Don3 in MP once, and I found the independent server setup quite irritating. In addition, the server crashed every round and it only worked because the game was also saved every round and could be reloaded.

An easier (and more stable) multiplayer setup than Dom3 would be nice.

[Gandalf Parker]

Its hard to make a full judgement. Most of the beta testers seem more solo than mp oriented. The strongly MP and Balance people that were invited have not provided much. I am biased toward Solo but it seems to me that the game-changing events are stronger in CoE3 than Dom3 which can tick off MPers who want to win by skill rather than luck.

But yeah we will have to wait and see how things play out once the game is released.

[Thilock_Dominus]

So i need Desura to play it ?

No, you don't need Desura to play it (or any other games you got from desura).
Inside the Desura folder you'll find binaries/scripts that you can launch outside Desura.

But you need to launch desura to get updates etc. etc.


<=== pre-ordered today!

[Edi]

Arkhan, I suppose that yes, CoE3 can be better also as MP. setting up a server is not difficult and once it's been set up, nearly everything transfers over to the players.

The manual has instructions on the server setup and connection stuff too.

MP is stable and if you drop out, you can reconnect after a small interval (the server needs to realize you've dropped out).

[CoyoteTheClever]

I preordered a while ago, mistakenly thinking at the time it would give me access to the beta. I don't mind though, but wow, the game looks awesome from the AARs I've seen and I can't wait. I'm a big fan of Dominions 3 too.

Anyways, have you guys contacted RockPaperShotgun about the game yet? This is the sort of game people at that site love, and it always seems to help sales for indie projects like this.

[Gandalf Parker]

have you guys contacted RockPaperShotgun about the game yet? This is the sort of game people at that site love, and it always seems to help sales for indie projects like this.
Thank you yes. There are already two threads about CoE3 there.

But if you think of any others, feel free to mention them.

[onomastikon]

thank you for those replies. That pleases me to hear, since I am not looking for a "simpler" Dom3 for MP (or rather: one with comparably incompetent AI). If the devs also plan on supporting this game's SP aspects like they have been supporting Dom3s issues, I will be very pleased indeed (e.g. updates to AI). Thank you much, looks like I'll be preordering. Erm, I just see that's not on shrapnel's store -- odd. Don't know that one. Maybe not preordering?

[Gandalf Parker]

If you check out the progress page for CoE3
http://jaffa.illwinter.com/coe3/coe3progress.html
you will notice AI getting mentioned often. Johan tends not to be too specific what he did when he posts it (he likes to surprise us) but they do show up often. I think he enjoys it. I dont think we could keep Johan from tweaking the AI even long after the game is released.

There is also trigger commands that the players can use to write responses into a map. You can create your own events and surprises. Entering an area, or a site, could trigger a sudden increase of enemy units becoming available. Getting too many of a certain unit might trigger a revolt where many of them switch sides. I cant wait to see what the fertile minds here come up with.

[Jack_Trowell]

(...) Thank you much, looks like I'll be preordering. Erm, I just see that's not on shrapnel's store -- odd. Don't know that one. Maybe not preordering?

The game will not be sold by Shrapnel, but by desura.com, where you can already pre-order if you wish (it will save you a few $/€)

[Doo]

Pre-ordered and counting down.....

:)

[WraithLord]

Just preordered the game :D

The AARs are gr8. Thanks!

[onomastikon]

Thank you very much.
Unless I am mistaken, I realize that you, Mr. Parker, are a particular SP fan and (while our opionions of when a game is a "good" one for SP may differ, since you appear to rate Dom2-3 much higher on SP-applicability than I do) hence I take your words as great approval. As you can see, I am greatly satisfied with Dom3 as my NUMBER ONE multiplayer game (I cannot imagine a better one), and I am not looking for another similar one to enhance my MP experience. I need, however, a good SP fix.

I still have 2 brief questions, if I may, 1 about the product and one about the distribution.

Product: Am I right in gleaning what I could from the video that the turns are not entirely simultaneous? That is, your units move around the map and only combat is processed at the end of the turn? Or is combat also not simultaneous? (It almost looked as if you could click on stuff and give orders during combat.) I mean all this is assuming that that black screen with figures on it was the combat screen. (Will there be a battlefield with terrain or is the black screen what the devs envision?)

Distribution: Sorry to continue to pester you on this, I've never heard of Desura but if you all trust it, then that speaks for it. The lack of information there confuses me a bit, however. May I ask?
- "product is delivered digitally": so I get to DL it one time? A certain number of times? What happens when I change machines? Sorry this is important for me before preordering, which I normally never do anyhow.
- Is it like Steam in that I need to have an internet connection to play certain games (e.g. be logged onto steam to start a game launch)? Or can I DL the product and then proceed to play on laptop w/out internet? Also important for me as an SP player.
- Why is Illwinter leaving Shrapnel for Desura? Not that I am married to Shrapnel, I would MUCH prefer digital distribution anyhow (I live in Europe and dislike overseas shipping costs), and the price seems much more suited to a wider target group than Shrapnel's pricing of Dom2-3 was -- just curious really.

Thank you so very much.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

How does the resource system / economic model work in CoE3?
I guess it's more simple than in Dom3, isn't it?

Can you build stuff? Cities? Buildings?

[Edi]

The resource system is much simpler. They go by different names, but essentially all classes require some different special resources (like gems of a different path) for their specific rituals.

Rituals are class specific in the sense that they are available only to certain commanders of a certain class, but if another player charms that commander, he can use those same rituals. Charm a warlock, use elemental summonings. Charm a necromancer, gain necromancy etc.

You can't build stuff like cities, forts etc. Some classes can do some very limited terraforming (Burgmeister can change farms to Hoburg Villages, under certain circumstances anyone can burn down forests and the enchanter destroys lots of stuff to build things).

[Jack_Trowell]

Is this possible outside from charm to get access to other casters or units that thos available from start ?

Some special site allowing you to recruit special units maybe ?

There was talks previously on special recruitable not showing all turns, maybe some casters can show there as mercenaries ?

[Edi]

Some mages appear as mercenaries and some you can summon. Mage being here anything from an actual mage to a demon or other fantastic being capable of casting rituals.

Some wizards can be recruited, but they do not know any rituals, just combat magic. There are no sites that allow you to recruit special units, but some sites increases the chances of getting offers from wizards, and other sites increase the chance of getting priest offers for recruitment.

And mages are always announced special recruitment. Something like Dai Bakemono for the Bakemono or goblin archers for Troll King can appear unannounced and disappear next turn, but wizard recruitment is always accompanied by a recruitment offer message.

[Gandalf Parker]

I still have 2 brief questions, if I may, 1 about the product and one about the distribution.

Product: Am I right in gleaning what I could from the video that the turns are not entirely simultaneous? That is, your units move around the map and only combat is processed at the end of the turn? Or is combat also not simultaneous? (It almost looked as if you could click on stuff and give orders during combat.) I mean all this is assuming that that black screen with figures on it was the combat screen. (Will there be a battlefield with terrain or is the black screen what the devs envision?)

As beta testers we are still making recommendations, and they get implemented as the developers see fit. Apparently decided on things like: if they want it in the game, if its fun to implement, or if its easy to implement, if players seem to want it. With the weight being in basically that order. Things move pretty fast and it seems best not to try to pin down absolutes yet on what they will or will not do. So I am afraid that many of the answers tend to be "as of now".

The game is turn based. Moves are made, everyone ends turns, then combat, then new turn. Allies CAN make their moves simultaneous but combat still happens after all moves. No orders are given during combat. As of now combat is black screen. (terrains are very changeable in this game so Id be surprised if the black screen changed but wont say its an absolute)

Distribution: Sorry to continue to pester you on this, I've never heard of Desura but if you all trust it, then that speaks for it. The lack of information there confuses me a bit, however. May I ask?I have no idea. The pre-order thing came out of the blue and caught me completely off guard. I do not get the impression that Desura will be THE distributor. Especially since it doesnt seem to support Mac versions. Some other distributors are still being actively discussed. (Many seem to be rather divided between being good for the publisher, or good for the players, or good for the developer IMHO.) We do not yet know if Shrapnel is in or out, much less any whys. As far as the pricing that might have just been the developers opinion.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

What about teching? The ultimate 'core' of Dominions 3 was spell research with the goal of creating the most overpowered, broken and unbalanced super monster allowed within the rule system.
Well, there were other purposes as well, but I used it mainly for that... ;)

Is CoE3 also about spell research? What do use your resources for?
Troops, summons, research?

[Gandalf Parker]

There is no real research or forging. You can visit a library to learn a random new spell, or you find get a scroll as combat loot which allows you to add a new spell to a mage. For equipment it tends to come as combat loot. It can be redistributed among all troops (not just commanders).

Resources are for getting more units. Some nations collect herbs for summons, some use gems to create mechanicals, some need cities to get sacrifices for summons, some need gold to recruit, some need iron to recruit more armored units or siege weapons. Most of them have multiples of the above to different amounts so no one is entirely stuck with the results of just one resource but they do tend to have obvious preferences.

In the end it is not as many optioned as Dom3. Its simpler and plays faster. But it is still varied enough to offer a lot of game. A much faster game.

[Ighalli]

Moves are made, everyone ends turns, then combat, then new turn. Allies CAN make their moves simultaneous but combat still happens after all moves.

Does that mean every team moves and then combat happens? Or does combat happen at the end of each team's turn? I'd hate to see player X acting earlier in the turn just bumping player Y's big army with a lone commander to stop them from moving on player Y's turn.

How is turn order decided? Just cyclic based on the order in the setup list?

[Edi]

In SP, combat happens at the end of the player's turn. Meaning if I play red and attack blue, that is resolved at the end of my turn. If he then attacks me, that plays at the end of his turn.

In network MP, I'm not quite sure how it happens, because if you're moving sequentially with your ally, you should be able to attack an enemy. Meaning if red and blue are allied, and red moves to attack yellow and then blue moves to attack the same stack, they attack together at the end of blue's turn but before yellow player moves.

Turn order is the color sequence. Red, blue, green, yellow, purple, teal, brown, white, which also corresponds to player numbers 0-7. It does not vary, but if you play with less than eight players, you can add all in game setup, then delete the colors you don't want from the in between slots.

[vladikus]

In COE2, if you have multiple commanders and put them all on the same spot, it gets somewhat difficult and tedious to move them together (for instance, if I want to combine a Troll King, an unexpected hero, and Mum the Troll into a single force, I have to perform three moves for each one every turn). Does COE3 have any sort of option to "link" move commands for all commanders on a square so you don't have to cycle through commanders and move them individually or perhaps a commander hierarchy in which you can make "officers" of other commanders?

[Edi]

Yes. They can be grouped and commanders can even be subordinated to others so that they vanish from the list and act like regular units. They can also be turned back to regular commanders by reversing the subordination.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

But if there's neither spell research nor building, then how does a player get more powerful?
If I start start as a Necro and can summon longdead at the start, then how could I ever beat this 'Thing of Unreason'?
Do I just summon long dead warriors until I can just overwhelm it with mass, or are there ways to get spells for more powerful summons?
And if there are, are there other ways to get them besides random locations?
Not sure if this feature will be my favourite. I never was a big fan of the random spells in HoMM.

Can I play a certain 'strategy' with a character, like trying to get big nasty summons with a necro? I also think I heard something about a Lich and/or vampire transformation.
Is this just by accidant or can I 'provoke' it?

[Edi]

There is no spell research, but there is resource accumulation. Since the AAR is going to display them fairly soon in any case (barring a savegame break), let us use Necromancer as an example:

Necromantic rituals are as follows:
- Raise Dead (no resource cost, incurs 6 points of insanity)
- Minor Summoning (20 Hands of Glory)
- Major Summoning (80 hands)
- Summon Legion (200 hands, requires Battlefield)
- Transfrom into a Vampire (125 hands, requires Old Castle)
- Ritual of Necromantic Mastery (50 for apprentice, becomes Necromancer)
- Ritual of Necromantic Mastery (150 for Necromancer, becomes Grand Necromancer)
- Transform into a Lich (250 hands, requires Temple or Ancient Temple, must be Grand Necromancer)

The major summonings from Necromancy can provide some pretty seriously powerful creatures and once you mass enough of those and preferably turn yourself into a lich, you could take it down, but expect serious losses.

As far as spell gain, all mage classes have a ritual of mastery, which upgrades the starting mage into a better mage and gives them access to tier 3 spells. You gain two spells that way. The rest you have to learn at libraries or from scrolls. Or if you can blow more resources on rituals of mastery rather than summons, you can gain more level 3 spells.

Then again, many of the more powerful rituals will summon level 3 casters for you, gaining you more mages/SCs that you can use simultaneously for the same price as gaining one more spell for a mage who can only use one at a time.

As far as rituals are concerned, they are hardwired into the commanders. If you have a certain commander, say Necromancer, that commander can cast all of the rituals available to him given the resources. And if a commander can cast a ritual that requires some specific resource, he can also gather it. So if you charmed a necromancer, you could gather Hands of Glory after that, even if you couldn't normally.

[Gandalf Parker]

I tend to play on REALLY big maps (larger than the game offers on the menu). And even though the ceiling cap on CoE3 seems low compared to Dom3 I never feel it to be too restrictive. If I try real hard I might get one unit to the maximum ability it can achieve. But when I do its only for beta testing purposes because the unit is basically out of the game for too long for that to be worthwhile. By the time its maxed out, its so far behind my front lines that its hardly worth leaving home.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

Thanks for answering all my questions.
Binding the spells to specific locations sounds great.
This really forces you to use the map for your purposes.
I also can't play a fixed strategy every time since I don't know if the required location is available.
Something I see rarely these days.

[Thilock_Dominus]

In an average game, how many units can/is the player managing? And how many units can be under one commander?

[Gandalf Parker]

I dont think Ive hit a limit. I HAVE gotten too many units to easily manage in the units view screen. Around 100 it gets messy. But I dont think Ive hit a limit of any type

[Edi]

You can have upwards of 200 units on one commander and probably more, but after 9 rows of 20 it gets really bloody annoying.

Not that you'll see that kind of numbers in-game, that was in the good old days when we still had a debug console to cheat with before Johan removed it from the game.

Once you manage to build up your forces some, maybe three rows of 20 is the max you can dedicate to a single army unless you're going to assault a heavily fortified position.

[samoht]

Do Bogus & Friends make an appearance in CoE3?

[Gandalf Parker]

No but I have requested it multiple times. Its a signature piece. Especially if you know the story behind them

[Korwin]

Finally preodered.
Noticed CoE3 got 15% off.

[Admiral_Aorta]

Can you rename any of your commanders like in dom3 or just the leaders, like in coe2?

[Edi]

No renaming possible so far.

[Admiral_Aorta]

Aww, that sucks. Maybe a patch will add that in? It doesn't seem like it'd be too hard to implement.

[Ighalli]

How does damage, armor, and strength work? It looks like most things just roll a single open ended die and that's how much damage it taken. If you have armor, do you get to roll a die and add your armor value to the damage prevented or do you just subtract your armor value from the incoming damage? The Bakemono wizard in Edi's AAR does 1d3+3 with his staff. Is that from some kind of magical staff, or does it have something to do with his strength of 6?

[Edi]

Damage is open-ended. Damage bonus actually increases die size. The reason why it appears as a bonus is because a staff can be replaced by a better magic weapon and the damage bonus would then increase the die size of that weapon. For monsters with natural weapons, strength increases (from spells etc) directly increase die size of weapons.

Armor doesn't get die rolls added, it's a direct subtraction. The mechanics are a bit more involved than that, but it's all going to be in the manual.

[theenemy]

CoE3... Sounds just like a game for me!
Faster paced and with a better AI than Dom3? Cool!
The combat screen looks about as exciting as a cancer-patient, but I can live with that I suppose.

A few questions:

1. Are there more graphic terrain-types than just forest/mountains in the world? Would be nice to see and wander some deserts for example.

2. Is there any "leader" class that specializes in melee? Only heard about a necro and some enchantress so far.

3. What MP alternatives will the game have except hotseat?

Extra thanks to all the people who bothered to write AARs! Cheers nyiggahs

[Gandalf Parker]

1) Many. Rivers, lakes, volcanoes, savanna, desert, mesa, jungle, swamp, and many more. The Map Editor presently lists 196 tiles altho some of those are variations of the same terrain and some are special sites.

2) Yes. I would say Baron, Troll King, Senator, and Pale Ones. They tend to rule the early game and smaller maps. Dwarves and Burgmeister (hobbits, halfings) also tend to play a melee game very well. But they are more horde (large numbers) and are slow so they are better for the turtle defensive player.

3) Only HotSeat, and Direct Connect over the net like Dom3 does. No PbEM (and I think it plays too fast for that anyway). I predict it will popular in IRC channels and Chat rooms.

[vladikus]

I'll throw this into the void: could there be a game option to randomize the first side to attack (rather than the defender always getting the first attack)? Maybe a check box in an in-game menu?

That would add some extra element of surprise and make skirmishes a bit less about amassing a couple more units as cannon fodder.

Although, as I reflect on this tactic, having the defender always attack first adds an extra element of strategy to the game (e.g. if you have a slightly smaller force than your enemy, then you would have the opportunity to retreat since the enemy would be hesitant to attack).

It's way to far into development to implement this, but this is an idea: certain tiles could have random chances of allowing first attack to the defender or aggressor. For instance, if you attack while on a forest tile, maybe there is a 30% change the aggressor attacks first due to forest ambush. With a castle or tower, the defender would always attack first. If a swamp, the defender would be more likely to attack first.

[Doo]

I hope in the future an initiative value will be given for each unit, and each round of combat die rolls are added to it to determine action order. Each unit only gets one action per round but then the high initiative units have greater chance of going first. I'd keep the variation in initiative low so stacks of high initiative units don't hugely dominate.

Maybe in the future, I'm just keen to start playing :)

[vladikus]

I wanted to correct something I said earlier (in relation to recruitment and allow commanders to lead other units in COE2), this feature is already in CoE2. You can make a commander a unit by viewing that commander's stats and pressing "d."

I should read the manual more closely. Have fun playing CoE2 until CoE3 comes out :)

Oh yeah, one other thing. Instead of the game winning screen saying "You won!" You should offer nuggets of wisdom, easter eggs, story ending depending on statistics or the commander with which you won, or insight about the game (a la nethack fortune cookies).

[samoht]

Oh yeah, one other thing. Instead of the game winning screen saying "You won!" You should offer nuggets of wisdom, easter eggs, story ending depending on statistics or the commander with which you won, or insight about the game (a la nethack fortune cookies).

That is a fantastic idea. CoE2 is lots of fun, but winning... kind of sucks. It is anti-climactic to say the least. I can't tell you how many times I've strung out a game just to mess around with stuff because I don't want to see "You've won!" and then game over.

[Admiral_Aorta]

Dom3 does that too if you actually play to the point of winning. You get a message saying "A true god has ascended!" and then it drops you back at the start screen. Rather anticlimatic.

[Gandalf Parker]

I keep wanting the end-game screen to say "One of your commanders has decided he deserves to be thought of as more than a mere mortal. He is continuing into the rest of the world to claim his godhood. (check out Illwinters other fantasy game Dominions 3)"

And then link to my Dominions 3 link so I can get a couple dollars off of each purchase.

[Gandalf Parker]

AND we still surge forward. As soon as it was mentioned again here, Edi posted it again there.
And now on the progress page amoung other great additions is a switch to turn --rename on.

[Thilock_Dominus]

Wish: I know that there's no unit description in CoE3 like Dom3, but when/if CoE3 get patched later so the community can mod CoE3, could the devs make it possible/open to add unit descriptions?

[Edi]

Wish: I know that there's no unit description in CoE3 like Dom3, but when/if CoE3 get patched later so the community can mod CoE3, could the devs make it possible/open to add unit descriptions?

Don't see why it couldn't at least be discussed. If and when modding comes up, I will raise the subject.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

I hope it will also be possible to change some class names.
The 'Burgmeister' class sounds very odd. I'd have prefered something more stylish like Castellan...

[Edi]

Class names, no. The Burgmeister class name comes from the leader, since the leader of a Hoburg settlement is the Burgmeister. Dom3 didn't have an official Illwinter hoburg nation, but in CoE3 they are very much a class of their own.

[Gandalf Parker]

This didnt work out we well as I had hoped. One day I might figure out how to do an AAR here. But here is a webby version of a Druid / Baron alliance.

http://www.dom3minions.com/~gandalf/CoE3/Druid-Baron.html

[Doo]

This didnt work out we well as I had hoped. One day I might figure out how to do an AAR here. But here is a webby version of a Druid / Baron alliance.

http://www.dom3minions.com/~gandalf/CoE3/Druid-Baron.html

Are you still playing the game out Gandalf? I played CoE2 yesterday and experienced how a couple of random factors can determine if you have a fast or slow start. On this note, is there an option for the map to be known but still with fog of war? Even scrying spells retain their value if they lift the fog of war to reveal defender strength. Or an option for the map to be known in an area around your home, just to make the starting game "fairer", as I just realised you would know where the enemies start. Unless you make it so their homes are hidden on a revealed map until you actually see it. Considerations for future patches..... :)

CoE3 does seem such a quick game, more time is spent writing and editing screen shots for the AAR than playing the game. When its released I might try do a completely youtube AAR.

[Gandalf Parker]

Im not sure. My health gives me only bursts of time that I can do things. I will see how I feel tomorrow.
I did convert it to JPGs instead of PNGs at a request so the images would load faster

[Edi]

I played CoE2 yesterday and experienced how a couple of random factors can determine if you have a fast or slow start. On this note, is there an option for the map to be known but still with fog of war? Even scrying spells retain their value if they lift the fog of war to reveal defender strength. Or an option for the map to be known in an area around your home, just to make the starting game "fairer", as I just realised you would know where the enemies start. Unless you make it so their homes are hidden on a revealed map until you actually see it. Considerations for future patches..... :)

No way to reveal the map anymore since Johan removed the debug console. No option for a wider vision start, though that could be done through a command line switch I suppose, --vision=NBR (2, 3 or 4 squares), but any more than that would be too much. Even 2 squares (which some classes get due to their fort) is a lot on small maps.

CoE3 does seem such a quick game, more time is spent writing and editing screen shots for the AAR than playing the game. When its released I might try do a completely youtube AAR.
Yes, much more time. The Necromancer AAR I'm writing generally requires quite a bit of time to take and edit the screenshots (mainly the editing part) so that you can squeeze all the stuff in there rather than have 1 million screenshots.

As you may have noticed, the narrative is now moving along with several turns per post after I got done with the initial exploration and destroyed the High Cultist.

[samoht]

Edi and GP, both of your AARs are great. Thanks a lot. They're a good snack until the meal of CoE3 comes out, and it gives a nice peek at some of the changes made since CoE2.

[Doo]

As the game releases soon, whats the situation with a forum? Will there be a specific Illwinter/Conquest of Elysium 3 section on these forums? Or will there be a migration elsewhere?

People purchasing the game will have questions that need posing on a forum, where will it be done?

Perhaps I should be more patient and find out... :)

[Edi]

That is a decision to be made by Illwinter and if we are to have a dedicated CoE3 forum here, it must be discussed with Shrapnel. Otherwise we're in for a migration.

[onomastikon]

This is looking very very promising to me. Boy do I hope the AI is competant and the tactical battles aren't too inferior to Dom3's.

May I ask: During setup, can one choose more than one instance of one nation in a game? That is, could I have 3 teams, and one team be made up of an alliance of TWO witches (or Bakemons or whatever)? Or have two witches play against each other?
(While I understand that this wouln't make too much sense in Dom3 for a couple of reasons, I'd really hope for that here.)

thank you.

[Edi]

If you want, you can set all the players to the same class. However, with some classes this may cause problems or limit options:

- High Priestess: Baal is unique, therefore can be summoned only by one player
- Demonologist: Demon lords are unique, therefore only limited number available
- Troll King: Not sure of Troll Mum is unique, if she is, then only one Troll King per map is advisable. This has been raised with the devs.

The other classes have no such problems.

[Strabo]

- High Priestess: Baal is unique, therefore can be summoned only by one player
- Demonologist: Demon lords are unique, therefore only limited number available

Wow, for some reason I find this not a problem, but an interesting feature. I think it can create some fun races against time. But it's just me.

[Gandalf Parker]

Yes the game is perfectly willing to throw multiples of a nation into the game. That causes some fun AAR style moments. When your cocky dwarf army is going strong then runs into another dwarf army wearing a different color. It seems as though my worst situations have been from meeting a matching nation. Or when you have been fighting hard against a Troll King and the game announces that Gundar the Troll King is out of the game. But when you look, your opponents armies are still there because it was a different Troll King.

It might create some interesting games later. A more standard DnD style wargame by everyone playing Barons? Or a challenge game where all of the Warlock players tries to prove who is the BEST Warlock player.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

How are the classes and the races connected? Both Baron and Necromancers sound like human leaders just with opposite alignments (Good & Evil).

Can units get better besides giving them equipment. Most games use experience for that, though Dom3 doesn't have experience. Another, much cooler way would be something like Thing of Unreason eating units or a specific resource and getting more powerful from it.
That would make units more unpredictable if they can vary a bit in power.
(Anyone remember the crabs in Magic Carpet that could turn to Monster Crabs and multiply if they eat enough mana?!)

How dynamic is the environment? I heard something about death mushrooms growing on ancient battle fields. Is this static (=never changes) or can the field grow and spawn bigger more dangerous mushrooms like a mushroom mother if you don't clean it up in time. Would make things more interesting if you really have to care about the developments in your environment.
However, I'm aware that a 'living environment simulation' is not an easy thing to do.

[Jack_Trowell]

From what is known, the Baron is a fighter-type leader, with no spells but a stronger potential early in the game.

Some units, especially the leaders, can cast special rituels transforming them to a new unit type. It is know for exemple that with enough hands of glory a necromancer could become a vampire or a lich.

The vampire can feed on villages to reduce the insanity gained by casting necromantic rituals (or is it onlye "raise dead" that give insanity ?), while the lich is supposed to be immune to the insanity effect/status (but I think that you need a temple or some other terrain to cast this ritual).
The necromancer apprentice could also use similar rituals to become a full necromancer (and later a lich or vampire), but the cost in ressources would probably be huge.

From what I understand some non casters leaders might have ability to those rituals, the Troll king is supposed to be able to call its Mum who is a caster while himself isn't.

[Edi]

Dom3 has experience and so does CoE3, also implemented very much the same way. Veteran units are a lot better than newbies, but the problem is making them survive long enough. Many classes get tougher summons that benefit proportionally less from XP than the weaker units, but it is there. The problem of survivability is mainly with front line units, but even they will usually get to 1 star if you have a large enough pool. Getting to two stars is a lot more difficult.

As far as alignments, the baron is not some inherently "good" class. He's an ironfisted tyrant when you read the description. Necromancer, Demonologist, High Priestess, Priest King and Bakemono are more directly evil, to say nothing of the High Cultist.

But most of the classes are rather in a gray area.

As far as the environment, some monsters can multiply (like the death mushrooms), but they don't spread over the land uncontrolled. Some events can cause monster spawning etc and with scenarios, it's possible to construct almost anything in that way.

[onomastikon]

- High Priestess: Baal is unique, therefore can be summoned only by one player
- Demonologist: Demon lords are unique, therefore only limited number available

Wow, for some reason I find this not a problem, but an interesting feature. I think it can create some fun races against time. But it's just me.

I wholeheartedly agree. Perfect, in my eyes.

[Edi]

From what I understand some non casters leaders might have ability to those rituals, the Troll king is supposed to be able to call its Mum who is a caster while himself isn't.
Troll King doesn't do any rituals. Mum arrives via event, but boy can she do rituals... :D

By the way, Mum is not unique, so multiple troll kings duking it out is quite possible on an even playfield.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

Oops, almost forgot that Dom3 has experience. Didn't play it for a while now, and I can't remember it having a real impact.

[Gandalf Parker]

For some of these it points to CoE3 being more event-oriented than Dom3 was. What global rituals did in Dom3 as far as changing the whole game for some nations at the harm of others, CoE3 does with events and some rituals.

The Troll Kinds Mum is a major factor. She shows up as a game event. First she suddenly sends gold to help her son. Then later a message says that she is unhappy with how he is doing things so she shows up to "take charge". Others have such events also. The Pale Ones Oracle appearing for instance. Both give their nations new resource needs and new abilities. Mum Troll can cast a ritual causing forests to become Troll Forests where powerful fungus can sprout up and increase, and carrion creatures can appear to wander away attacking everything.

There are also events such as the breach of the Realm of Death which causes disposessed spirits to appear in numbers dependent on the amount of death has been there (places you fought big battles to get suddenly cause another large battle to keep it). Or the Fungus Summer which increases the resource income of some such as Witches and can cause giant fungus to appear in forests or swamps.

Those are just some of the surprises that the game throws at you. AND of course the scenario commands can use timers or triggers to get more events written into downloadble scenarios that I am hoping people here will get into making.

[onomastikon]

Just curious what you beta testers believe so far to be the case: In Dom3, the least savory aspect of its combination of features for me was that summons are almost always much better than recruitable national units; this causes me to want to play games others do not particularly care for (e.g. very low site frequency, hard research, etc.), which does not "solve" my "problem" but makes things more like I prefer: viability of recruitable national units in all stages of the game.

How is this in CoE3? Is it the case here, too, to the same, lesser, or greater degree that summons makes recruiting troops quickly obsolete?
Thank you.

[Gandalf Parker]

Well Dom3 was designed to be early game of exploration and expansion, mostly armored units. Then a mid-game more of research and forging. Then a late game where super combatants and major magics made a bigger emphasis.

I think CoE3 has the same. BUT since the game moves much quicker, there isnt such an extreme gap between them. If you let certain nations get powerful then you will see some extreme summons. But usually it happens when the armor specific armies are still capable.

ALSO CoE3 does allow for you to play with all players using just that type of nation. I suppose that if someone wanted to they could also write a scenario which specifically downgrades the magic nations.

[Edi]

Just curious what you beta testers believe so far to be the case: In Dom3, the least savory aspect of its combination of features for me was that summons are almost always much better than recruitable national units; this causes me to want to play games others do not particularly care for (e.g. very low site frequency, hard research, etc.), which does not "solve" my "problem" but makes things more like I prefer: viability of recruitable national units in all stages of the game.

How is this in CoE3? Is it the case here, too, to the same, lesser, or greater degree that summons makes recruiting troops quickly obsolete?
Thank you.
Short of some nations that can get massive income of resources because their resources are so very common, gold income is liable to be a lot more than the other special stuff, which means that you will be able to recruit far more armored troops.

And even the classes that can get massive resource income on short notice have the drawbaack that whereas a necro major summon costs 80 hands of glory, their costs somewhere around 750 resources unless they want to fight what they summoned.

Essentially, outside of some demon lords or the doom horrors, you will never be able to field summons alone that can guarantee you victory when facing regular troops. Super combatants in CoE3 are far less super than in Dom3. They cannot survive without supporting troops, because they can't kill the enemy fast enough and the insect stings of the normal infantry will eventually wear them down and kill them.

Put mage support behind the infantry and the summons rapidly become far less of a problem.

Some battlefield summon spells can turn the tide, but they are mainly restricted to the Demonologist and the Troll King's mum after she does an upgrade (which ain't cheap).

[onomastikon]

thank you very much

[vladikus]

Or when you have been fighting hard against a Troll King and the game announces that Gundar the Troll King is out of the game. But when you look, your opponents armies are still there because it was a different Troll King.

I had a question that was an offshoot of Gandalf's comment: if you take over an opposing class's last remaining citadel but still have other enemies to fight, then do the remaining troops of the recently defeated class become independents or disappear off the map?

[Edi]

They disappear.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

I've just seen Gandalf's new AAR where his ally started on the other side of the map, and I wonder if it's possible to add an option to force allies to be close to each other.
I like to play cooperative games with friends and it's usually nice if you start close to each other so one is able to help the other. If both are positioned far way each one is more or less playing his own game.

[vladikus]

Altho best IMHO is an alliance between early powerhouse and late game SCs.I like to play games with me allied to an AI. I love how the game allows allies to cooperate so much. And I love the cluster start switch where the allies start next to each other. With well-paired allies its a blast

I think that option is already available (a clustered start I think its called).

[Edi]

I've just seen Gandalf's new AAR where his ally started on the other side of the map, and I wonder if it's possible to add an option to force allies to be close to each other.
I like to play cooperative games with friends and it's usually nice if you start close to each other so one is able to help the other. If both are positioned far way each one is more or less playing his own game.


That option is known as "Clustered start for allied players" and is set at game creation.


http://koti.welho.com/ehalttun/public_files/images/coe3/coe3_clusteredstart.jpg


As you can see, they start quite close together.

[Ighalli]

Just out of curiosity: I know allies can steal from one another if the original owner doesn't leave any troops behind on their square. Is it possible for an ally to steal their friend's citadel and put them out of the game?

Allied troops can move past one another and coexist on the same square between turns, right?

[Edi]

Just out of curiosity: I know allies can steal from one another if the original owner doesn't leave any troops behind on their square. Is it possible for an ally to steal their friend's citadel and put them out of the game?

Allied troops can move past one another and coexist on the same square between turns, right?
Yes, and yes.

[Gandalf Parker]

If no unit is there then the first to walk in claims it just as if they were not allies. But if a unit of your allies is there then you cannot combat them.

However....
I have hidden inside my allies fortress. I have stationed troops inside my allies fortress to help defend it when he was weak. And (possible exploit warning) I have done dangerous summonings inside my allies fortress in order to force his troops to help defend me if the control fails.

[Gandalf Parker]

Im sorry. I dropped the Druid / Baron Alliance AAR.
I think I gave some idea of what that alliance offers in a fun game. Enough to spark some interest.

Now I have started another alliance. The High Cultist (Rlyeh/Cthulhu) nation is allied with a Troll King nation. Not quite so friendly an alliance. They overlap in their needs. But if played properly it can still benefit both sides.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=48331

[Tarrax]

If no unit is there then the first to walk in claims it just as if they were not allies. But if a unit of your allies is there then you cannot combat them.


Interesting. This is a bit of odd way of doing it don't you think? I mean I can understand a loose alliance where your "ally" can possibly take advantage of you when he sees your undefended castle. But then why wouldn't it when he sees you defending your castle with one single soldier if it's a loose alliance? If it's opportunistic, it should always be opportunistic I think.

So anyway... We have about 2 weeks until the target release date. Does it look like we will meet that target?

[Gandalf Parker]

I dont mind the arrangement. It makes it easy to decide what things my ally can or cannot have. If I want him to hands-off then I leave at least one unit to say "excuse me but you cant have that". But if I want him to have it then I just march my troops off as soon as he is in the neighborhood.

It makes it easy to give iron or gold if I want him to boost his troops. or give him a castle if i want him to generate more of a presence in that part of the map

[Gandalf Parker]

As far as "on time" Id guess so. We dont stop coming up with changes, but i dont think that will stop anything. And sometimes we do introduce some really nasty bug but Johan tends to fix that in a day so that shouldnt hang us up either.

The only thing that might concern me is that I still havent seen anything about who and how it will be distributed

[Tarrax]

I dont mind the arrangement. It makes it easy to decide what things my ally can or cannot have. If I want him to hands-off then I leave at least one unit to say "excuse me but you cant have that". But if I want him to have it then I just march my troops off as soon as he is in the neighborhood.

It makes it easy to give iron or gold if I want him to boost his troops. or give him a castle if i want him to generate more of a presence in that part of the map

Ah I see. So it's done that way as of sort of a site trading mechanism. I guess it makes sense if that's the only site trading mechanism.

[Gandalf Parker]

I dont know if its why it was done. But I sure use it that way. :)

[samoht]

Using the Druid/Baron alliance as an example, could the Baron player take away the Druid's forests if he moved through them?

[Edi]

Yes, if there are no troops there, the baron will deflag the forest when he moves through.

[onomastikon]

preordered!

[ArkhanTheBlack]

Do the summoning rituals always summon the same type of creature or do they vary?

Do the recruitment sites have some alignment preconditions such as certain troops not joining super evil characters like high cultists?

On a side note, I've seen that CoE2 had elve classes in it, but both were removed although the dwarves remained. I wonder if the designers have something against elves?! Actually it would have been nice to have a 'good' character class for a change. Most of the other classes seem to be just different grades of evil.

[CoyoteTheClever]

Do the summoning rituals always summon the same type of creature or do they vary?

Do the recruitment sites have some alignment preconditions such as certain troops not joining super evil characters like high cultists?

On a side note, I've seen that CoE2 had elve classes in it, but both were removed although the dwarves remained. I wonder if the designers have something against elves?! Actually it would have been nice to have a 'good' character class for a change. Most of the other classes seem to be just different grades of evil.

That's kind of the thing with the Dominions and Elysium-verse though. It has never been about good versus evil, its been about mythological and sometimes real creatures as well as ancient civilizations fighting each other in a death match of awesomeness.

What exactly makes elves "good" anyways? They are still out to kill everyone and conquer the land like the rest.

[Edi]

Do the summoning rituals always summon the same type of creature or do they vary?

Do the recruitment sites have some alignment preconditions such as certain troops not joining super evil characters like high cultists?

On a side note, I've seen that CoE2 had elve classes in it, but both were removed although the dwarves remained. I wonder if the designers have something against elves?! Actually it would have been nice to have a 'good' character class for a change. Most of the other classes seem to be just different grades of evil.

Summoning rituals summon a random creature from a predetermined set. E.g. the Necromancer lesser summon can summon anything from this list:
- Dispossessed Spirit (variable number)
- Ghoul (variable number)
- Dire Wolf (1)
- Ghost Warrior (variable number)
- Spectral Horseman (variable number)
- Shade (variable number)
- Mound King (commander, 1)

There were a few more, I think.

So you are not guaranteed anything when you summon. Some of the summonings can be a complete crapshoot, you can get utterly useless stuff or something that can turn the tide for you.

As far as elves being removed from CoE3, there is nothing to say that they could not come back in some form, but rather as one nation than two. And the idea that they would be somehow inherently good is not what I'd bet on. The CoE2 Elf Queen was more of the fairy court, benevolent kind of class, but the Elf King was the king of the Dark Elves and I'd hardly characterize him as "good".

I do expect that patches will add additional classes. The first addition is likely to be the Cardinal of El, since the High Priestess class description features him rather prominently as the main opponent of the cult of Baal.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

Well, elves have their origins in the norse mytholgy, therefore it's not something Tolkien just came up out of the blue.
I think they were called Ljosalfar, "Light elves" and kind of related to the Vanir gods which were more into creation than the bad *** Aesir warrior gods. The evil dark elves of D&D and Warhammer were if I remember right more a product of a misinterpretation since with the dark elves were actually the dwarves meant. Of course there's no exact yes or no since a lot of things in mythology allow different interpretations.

However, with Tolkiens impact, the elves generally have more of a tendency to higher moral standards which can be more interpreted more of less as 'good'. Which in gameplay terms could mean that they are less likely to use blood sacrifice and such.

On the other side, elves could be added with neutral alignment and the player decides if he plays them more like high, wood or dark elves.

[Gandalf Parker]

I started a new thread about some game variation ideas that the game supports so far.
Just based on the nations and possible alliances.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=48335

[CoyoteTheClever]

Well, elves have their origins in the norse mytholgy, therefore it's not something Tolkien just came up out of the blue.
I think they were called Ljosalfar, "Light elves" and kind of related to the Vanir gods which were more into creation than the bad *** Aesir warrior gods. The evil dark elves of D&D and Warhammer were if I remember right more a product of a misinterpretation since with the dark elves were actually the dwarves meant. Of course there's no exact yes or no since a lot of things in mythology allow different interpretations.

However, with Tolkiens impact, the elves generally have more of a tendency to higher moral standards which can be more interpreted more of less as 'good'. Which in gameplay terms could mean that they are less likely to use blood sacrifice and such.

On the other side, elves could be added with neutral alignment and the player decides if he plays them more like high, wood or dark elves.

Well, as Edi says, even the Elf Queen was more of a fairy court sort of elf than a post-Tolkein kind of elf. The thing with fairies is that even though they have what you'd call "high moral standards", they wouldn't be considered human moral standards. The tradition I'm most familiar with is the sidhe and unsidhe (Or seele and unseelie sometimes), which is less "good and evil" courts and more "dangerous and even more dangerous". Even the "good" faries sometimes kidnap children and take them to their realm. And if you anger one, you are pretty much in huge trouble.

[CoyoteTheClever]

So I was playing some CoE 2, and noticed something really annoying, and that was that normal frontline commanders (Like the Barbarian Leader) get beaten up and there is seemingly nothing that can be done about that. Is there anything being done in 3 to change this? If not, it might be a good idea to have certain units with guarding ability that will cause them to have a chance to take damage for normal sized (IE, not the Troll King, who would be too large to guard :p) frontline commanders so they aren't turned into pulp the first turn of combat.

[Gandalf Parker]

For front liners there is only the equipment. But every nation has backliner leaders available also.

For backliners (mostly mages) many of them can summon familiars which stay in the back to absorb some damage and assassin attacks.

[Korwin]

New question:
If I loose, can I keep the game running to see which AI won?
Or better yet, can I go AI and see if I win?

[Edi]

No, and no.

[WraithLord]

Oh, an observer mod could be great. Even for watching AIs with different settings duke it out.

[Gandalf Parker]

If ALL of the players are AI then the game shuts down.
Sorry about that. Thats my fault. It was a server request to keep a server from running a dead game continually. It was a hassle with Dom3 and would be even more with CoE3 since there are no turn files I could even check the last turn-in date on

However, if you have "Common Cause" turned on, and you have an AI ally, then you can continue in the game watching your ally play. But that is because you actually have a chance of coming back.

If you want to watch your own nation play out as an AI (only possible in server games altho you can host your own server game just for yourself) then you would have to have another human player in the game. I have started games where I played 2 or more nations, then set some of them AI just to see how they would continue. It can actually be fairly instructive early on to watch the AI play.

The game could support tourists. The game makes it much easier to switch out who it is playing a nation. If I drop then the next connector sees my nation as "open" for play. They can step into the game taking over where I left off. So an old game that people arent interested in anymore could stay running to allow people to step in and do a few turns

[WraithLord]

Understood.

However, if it were a flag like --enable_observer_mode that defaults to false (as in no dead games) then we could enjoy a life game sim like experience w/ CoE3. That sounds like a lot of fun to me - like start human, grow a nice kingdom and then switch AI and check how it's doing every so often :)

[Soyweiser]

Edi and Gandalf, credit where credit is due, I really like the AARs. Good job on those. Made me more interested in the game than most of this thread :D.

Ps, this page http://www.illwinter.com/coe/index.html says shrapnel has a free download of COE2. I could not find it myself. So if that isn't true anymore. You might want to advise illwinter to remove it.

[samoht]

Edi and Gandalf, credit where credit is due, I really like the AARs. Good job on those. Made me more interested in the game than most of this thread :D.

Ps, this page http://www.illwinter.com/coe/index.html says shrapnel has a free download of COE2. I could not find it myself. So if that isn't true anymore. You might want to advise illwinter to remove it.

http://www.shrapnelgames.com/Our_Games/Free_Games.html

I play it on my lunch breaks sometimes.

[Soyweiser]

Aw right, it isn't on gamersgate, nor is it on the our games page. That is why I couldn't find it.

Thanks Samoht.

[Ighalli]

However, if it were a flag like --enable_observer_mode that defaults to false (as in no dead games) then we could enjoy a life game sim like experience w/ CoE3.

I'd really like this feature too! I'm planning to run some AI tournaments like the ones I've seen in the dev log.

[Gandalf Parker]

Not mine. Done by someone at a developer forum
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHWiHC-i5b4

[samoht]

Not mine. Done by someone at a developer forum
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHWiHC-i5b4

Excellent. I'll watch it right now.

I wonder if it would be worth it to spread the word to various game review websites or podcasts. I know one of the guys over at the Three Moves Ahead podcast is a big Dom3 fan (helped write the manual?) and they've done a couple podcasts in the past that discussed Dom3. It probably wouldn't hurt to try to get the word out or something.

For all I know there could already be something in the works along those lines, but I bring it up because so far the only discussion I've seen has been in other forums.

[Gandalf Parker]

It was very interesting to watch.
(A) he was obviously learning the game as he did it.
(B) he is obviously good at doing that. he made only a couple wrong assumptions

[Edi]

As a random announcement, it can be said of CoE3 that as of this writing, there are no statfixes that need doing that I know of. :)

[Doo]

As a random announcement, it can be said of CoE3 that as of this writing, there are no statfixes that need doing that I know of. :)

I have three days off work. If it can be said of CoE3 that it is released, that would be better :)

[Korwin]

Hmm, would be great if the game was released a week early. (holiday for me next week)

[ArkhanTheBlack]

I hope there will be some modding options available in the future.
Most of what I'm seen looks good or at least okay, but the all black cmbat screen is a bit too boring for my taste.
I'd have either left the map in the background or added a nice backgroud image of the combat terrain and shown a combat window with front, mid and back rows for attacker and defender.

[Tarrax]

I agree ArkhanTheBlack.

I actually like the game map. The way it changes with seasons etc. but yes the pitch black combat screen is a little depressing. At first, I honestly thought it was that way because the game was in Beta. Now, I am not sure what would be a good replacement for it since in a way black let's you see the armies better but the combat screen could definitely use some improvement.

[Gandalf Parker]

I dont think background screens would work well. We have some great variety in the images. Background screens would just make it hard to see. And the effect of some units, such as shades, would be ruined. They are a dark grey and give the impression of their invisibility in the combat

[WraithLord]

Then maybe some nice frames with different design per class?

[Edi]

Then maybe some nice frames with different design per class?

If we do get those, it won't be for the release version. The scope of things to be added in patches is greater than the scope of the new things that we can expect to be added at this late stage in the development, given that the release date is just a week away.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

I dont think background screens would work well. We have some great variety in the images. Background screens would just make it hard to see. And the effect of some units, such as shades, would be ruined. They are a dark grey and give the impression of their invisibility in the combat
Yes, that's the reason why you have to use a combat window.
The combat window has a clean dark background color, but the background surrounding the window would be the map or a background image. I think the red background color of the unit description windows would even offer a much softer contrast. Black is a bit extreme.
Info windows are used by most strategy games nowadays, even by CoE3, therefore I'm a bit surprised that it wasn't used for the fights.

[Edi]

I very much prefer the black background that CoE3 uses. The background inside the infoboxes is actually dark gray, unless opacity set to 0, in which case the background is black.

I rather intensely disliked the Dominions 3 red background, it made all graphics seem indistinct and blurry. The Blue GUI mod was a little better, but not a whole lot.

Some of the sprites in CoE3 are the exact same ones as in Dom3, but they look so much better on the black background that I thought they were entirely new sprites (Sirrush, Watcher).

You can even see it when you turn opacity up to max and the background is dark gray instead of black, the visual quality immediately becomes worse.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

Well, it's indeed grey(checked it with paint). I guess the redish appearance comes from the red panels in some of the windows.

I'd also keep it diplomatic. Just use a good looking background for the units. ;-)
However, I wonder, if the unit images look so much better with black background, then why wasn't it used for the unit images in the description windows?!
Actually I like grey better than the pitch black. Black is not a natural background.

However, the actual point wasn't the background color of the units but that it was used for the whole screen.
Just keep it in a combat window and you have both, good unit contrasts and a nice background.

[WraithLord]

Then maybe some nice frames with different design per class?

If we do get those, it won't be for the release version. The scope of things to be added in patches is greater than the scope of the new things that we can expect to be added at this late stage in the development, given that the release date is just a week away.

Makes perfect sense. Thanks!

[Ragnarok-X]

Watching some videos im wondering why the scaling system from d3 was killed. In dom 3, a normal human had all 10s to represent him. That way it was easy to gauge the power of a skeleton or troll. It seems in CoO3 even dwarfs only have strength 4 or 5. Why the rescaling ?

[Edi]

It's using the same scaling system as in CoE2. I like this system better. Besides, once you play for a while, gauging the relative power of units becomes second nature.

[Gandalf Parker]

Not sure. Might be because its CoE2 being redone so some of the game is pre-Dom3. Its Dom3 that changed things.

It might also be that the increased range in Dom3 made things harder to balance, and more micro-managery. Just guessing

Edit: Edi beat me at the same time :)

[Ragnarok-X]

I understand that, but still.
Firstly, from a lore angle, scaling everything by 10 is easy. if a human is 10, then a orc is pretty much 12, maybe 13, while a elf is likely 8 to 9.

But if the base is 5, the relationship becomes more difficult.
I always liked all the details in Dom3, and the ability to imagine a creature by comparing its stats to a human always appealed to the nerd in me.