Morla MA noob game (running)

[Morla]

I am going to start a new game, this time MA, too much free time=less money :D

Oh, the recruitment was fast, tomorrow(september 24) i choose a map and upload the game in llamaserver. Ok, game is up. Desing your pretenders, now you can change nations. I accept suggestions on map changing and game settings.

-game name "MorlaMAnoob"

-Noobs
-MA 8 players
-Map: Land of Legends (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=43144)
-Mods: cbm 1.92
-Diplo:RESPECT the trades, and respect the non agression pacts(but we are humans after all).

-Game settings:
-HOF 15
-rename enabeled
-magic sites frecuency 45
-rest by default
-winning condition: 5 capitals for 3 turns
-hosting schedule, llamaserver
36h+quickhost, it will increase as the game advance

i´ll play with Ulm, maybe Machaka

PLAYERS:

Morla- Ulm
SpaceViking21- Jotunheim
Immaculate- Pythium
triqui- Ermor
shatner- T'ien Ch'i
Olm- Man
Anaconda- Machaka
TimpaMan- Marignon

[Immaculate]

Any chance you could increase the time frame for either this game or your other to about 54-60hours?

[Morla]

it will increase, as the game advance

[SpaceViking21]

Sure, why not? I'll do Jotunheim.

[Morla]

nice

[Immaculate]

Pythium

[triqui]

I want to play too.

I'd like to be Ermor.

[Morla]

Immaculate, triqui, wellcome

[triqui]

Just noticed that it runs with CBM. Never have done before. I'm ok with it, but need some help about how to install it :P

[shatner]

I'll join this if the LA game doesn't take off (I don't trust my ability to juggle more than 3 MP games at a time). Since Pythium is already taken, I'm going with MA T'ien Ch'i.

[shatner]

To clarify, I'll join whichever of the LA or MA games that comes together first.

[Morla]

triqui, http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=47741 you can download it here, a lot of changes, a lot.

download the mod, unrar it, create a "mods" folder in dominions 3 directory, copy the "cbm 1.92" files in "mods" folder. In the game go to preferences, mod preferences and enable "cbm 1.92".

[Morla]

XDDD, shatner OK, i think this one has more chances to start.

[Olm]

I'll give Man another try.

[Morla]

nice ,2 to go, or do you want to play now, the 6 of us

[SpaceViking21]

I don't mind waiting, this is going quickly enough.any idea what map we're gonna do?

[Anaconda]

Sign me in for Machaka, will ya?

[Morla]

of course, the game is almost full.

map chices?

Land of Legends (found here, http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=43144 )?

suggestions?

[TimpaMan]

Hi. I could join too. I havent yet decided the race nor made my pretender... can i have time until tomorrow evening? now leaving for work soon, no time to do it today....

[Morla]

ok TimpaMan. And with you thats all. no more players.

i was thinking, waht do u think if i´ll rise the magic sites frequency to 45?

tomorrow i choose a map and upload the game to llamaserver.

[TimpaMan]

thanks for waiting:)

[triqui]

I'm just fine with the magic site increase. When do we have to build and send the pretenders?

[Morla]

tomorrow i´ll create the game in llamaserver, i´ll post here the name, and change the title thread to (design pretender). if you want a pm i´ll send one to you.

[TimpaMan]

ill take marignon

[Morla]

OK, the game is up, name "MorlaMAnoob" so desing your pretenders.

[SpaceViking21]

Dang, looks like I'm the only nonhuman race. NOW WHO AM I SUPPOSED TO SHARE MY GENOCIDAL AMBITIONS WITH?

[Morla]

XDDDDDD

triqui- desing your pretender with cbm 1.92 enabeled, few changes to scales, pretender costs...

[shatner]

Hey Morla, the link in Llamaserver to the Land of Legends map for this game actually takes you to a random post in a Babylon 5 Mod thread (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=43144 note the p=43144). The actual link to the map is this (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=43144 note the t=43144).

I don't know if this is a Llamaserver thing or what but what seems to have happened is that the link is going to forum post #43144 (Babylon 5 mod) when you want it to go to thread #43144 (Land of Legends).

[Morla]

hummm, alot of maps doesn´t have links, and some of the links send you to a babylon 5 random thread :cold: . I think it´s just a link problem and the map is the real deal, well i hope :D. if somthing goes wrong i pm llama

[triqui]

I already built the pretender (with CBM). Is the Server ok?

EDIT: I took the map from Shatner's second link. Is it right?

[Morla]

server-OK, map-OK.

[triqui]

Ok, now I have another problem.
Can't find my savedgames folder...
Have been looking in the FAQ, and it's an issue with Vista. I don't have Vista, but Windows 7, however, I have the same problem. I don't know how to solve, though, becouse the answer given in the FAQ for Vista does not seem to help me :/

EDIT: Ok, found it, inside the "compatibility files" tab. Weird things Bill Gates do, young Skywalker.

[SpaceViking21]

Once we start, remember that it's on quickhost. If you're the last person to send in your turn, wait a few minutes and do the next one instead of waiting so that we can get the first turns churned out.

[Morla]

YaY, all pretenders sent. the game will start in a few hours. i´ll change the name of the thread to (runing).

[Morla]

It Has Begun

[Morla]

weird, i change the hosting interval to 36h and-->Next turn due: 03:29 GMT on Wednesday September 28th :doh:

i hope you like it :D

[Immaculate]

News From The Travelling Bard

As the Lands of Legend awake to the presence of many new cults and faiths dedicated to strange and wondrous creatures who would call themselves gods, the bards already sing of distant and strange places.

They say that amongst the people of ‘Man’ and ‘Ulm’ potent would-be-godlings seclude themselves in their castles and libraries, uncovering the secrets of tomorrow through diligent research (man has research 20 and Ulm has research 23). What sorts of godlings these might be none know but many are keen to guess.

The nations of Ulm, Jutenheim and Ermor are also known for the strength of their cult’s faith and some say that either their godings walk among them, inspiring them to greater and greater piety or that their faith is really just that strong. Only time will tell (Ermor: 35, Ulm 56, Jutunheim:45).

Lastly the Bards sing of war and preparations for blood. It seems that the armies of Man and Machaka in particular are preparing themselves, training many new soldiers to swell their ranks that they might bring their faiths to the heathens by spear and spell (Army size: Man 114, Machaka 104)

[triqui]

Also, Tien Chi's citizen seem to be quite rich, their god has blessed them with good scales it seems :). Quite the opposite than Machaka, whose god magic is demanding in term of economy.

[Immaculate]

News From The Travelling Bard

The songs on the lips of every bard tell of the death of the would-be god of the Machuaka people; some say that the godling is immortal and the death a minor set back from which they will soon recover. Others say that only the fervent prayers of the faithful will return it to the Land of Legends. Only the Machaka know- for now.

Elsewhere there is continued evidence of the will of other godlings. No doubt the god of the Ermor leads forces against heathen provinces, conquering them for the glory of their nation (Ermor: high dominion, 3 provinces versus everyone else’s two). The gods of man and Ulm continue to advance the knowledge of their subjects, already uncovering precious secrets for their followers (research for man and ulm at 45 and 48 respectively). The god of the Jutunheim is said to walk amongst his subjects and yet it is not clear what role he plays- certainly he is not trapped in some laboratory like those of Man or Ulm- perhaps he personally leads his forces to victory over foreign lands.

Tien’chi continues to dominate economically, it treasury bloated by imperial tax-collectors working at high efficiency (and perhaps a bit of over-taxation coupled to efficient martial law). Surprisingly, Marignon’s taxation has almost completely disappeared and none know exactly why (do you?)

The largest army in the world belongs to Machaka, perhaps partially explaining its precipitous drop in financial fortunes. Man and Ermor, already strong from their god’s direct involvement, also dominate in military affairs, no doubt promising to soon take many more territories for their faiths.

[triqui]

Just to point: Ermor's god does not appear in the hall of fame. It's hard to conquer provinces without killing anyone. :)

[Immaculate]

good call... thoughts? unless its a fear effect?

[triqui]

Well, given than _I_ am Ermor, of course I've thoughts about the question :P

But a few hints:

1) Even with fear effects, the God would be in the Hall of Fame. It would have 0 kills, but some experience. There are several commanders with 0 kills and some XP already in the hall of fame, including two from Ermor.

2) there are more than 1 way to conquer 2 province in turn 2. Ermor starting armor is decent, enough to take most Indies. You just need a second army good enough to take another. That might be done with a recruited decent army: few sacreds with bless, decent sized medium infantry supported by a Prophet, or, in case of Ermor, buying a bunch of 1 turn-only gladiator. Or, if you get lucky, and there are 2 weak indies around your capital, your starting army plus a few recruits can be split in two, and take both.

That said, about the rumour the bards sing from distant lands: why do they think Jotunheim's god is out there? It's not in the Hall of fame, either, and did not research anything at all in both turn 1 and turn 2. Jotunheim does not have enough gems to forge in turn 0, so unless the god is being used to Patrol and raise the taxes (which does not seem so, given the income it gets), I doubt it's out there... If it is, what is s/he doing?

[Immaculate]

I like this hypothesizing- for a newb game i think its good and can help us learn the ropes a bit.

EDIT: I encourage everyone to take some screen shots and when things are safer to reveal (20 turns down the line?) we can post a few of the things we grappled with so everyone can learn a bit from each other.

[Olm]

Well, bards would normally be my business (and I guess some of you will get to know them by the end of this) but I like those reports. Keep up the work. When my Bards have reports from battles near and far I will add them.

[triqui]

Yes, I agree, this is good, specially in newbie games. This way we all learn about what other people do, and how to extrapolate data from the statistic graphs and hall of fame.

[SpaceViking21]

That said, about the rumour the bards sing from distant lands: why do they think Jotunheim's god is out there? It's not in the Hall of fame, either, and did not research anything at all in both turn 1 and turn 2. Jotunheim does not have enough gems to forge in turn 0, so unless the god is being used to Patrol and raise the taxes (which does not seem so, given the income it gets), I doubt it's out there... If it is, what is s/he doing?

Jotunheim here, this guy is right. Either I am doing nothing with my pretender and just letting him domspread (which is strange), or he's not quite out yet and the high dominion score is something else. Even though this is a noob game, the smart money is on option 2.

[Immaculate]

Ouch!

[SpaceViking21]

Ouch!

Sad day for your expansion party. We will always remember them, as I'm not sure they will ever come out of our boots.

[Immaculate]

The bards are strangely quiet this turn- perhaps they mourn... as they await the construction of a human-sized violin.

[SpaceViking21]

In their place, unusually large bards will sing the song of the world.

The nation of Ermor seems to be reclaiming its holdings quite well in the wake of the cataclysm. Their faith in whatever tiny human god must be spurring them on. Good for them! On their heels are the mighty Jotnar of Jotunheim, and all of the other tiny humans are somewhere behind them.

The tiny humans of T'ien Ch'i are still leading in income. While some may speculate that this is due to hard work and perserverance, the Jotun know that it is because human coins are much tinier than giant coins, so as a result they have more of them. The Ulmish are right behind them, and the tiny humans of Man bring up 3rd place.

The Ulmish and Man nations are still leading the pack in terms of books. Not too much to say here that hasn't been said by inferior human bards.

Faith is strongest in the lands of Jotunheim, as King Harald's messages of peace, tolerance, and genoci...er...kittens have found much sway in the local populace. Ermor and Ulm are close behind.

In terms of army size, the Machakan nation is the clear winner, though they have been tapering off recently. Ermor, Man, and T'ien Ch'i are neck in neck for second, and Jotunheim follows them.

That is this month's report from the suspiciously large bards, I hope you all enjoyed the show.

[shatner]

The officials of the Imperial Bureaucracy of T'ien Ch'i have one small addition and related speculation they wish to humbly submit. Ermor has a very strong triple bless, having death-9 or death-10 (there is no visible difference between the two), astral-9 and earth-6 or earth-7 on their god. This blessing gives their Shadow Vestals (who are already ethereal and carrying magic spears) the death weapon bonus, +3 magic resistance, twist fate, +250% affliction chance and +3 reinvigoration. This will also give their sacred casters useful reinvigoration and make all of their damaging spells much more likely to cause afflictions (beware the death bless evocation caster).

Given Ermor's high dom spread, they might have an imprisoned or dormant pretender, a high dom and are recruiting a full compliment of shadow vestals a turn. With a priest to unholy bless them (normal blessing does not work on holy undead units) and a handful of towershield troops to distract archers, Ermor could expand very quickly and cheaply at the expense of having what must be truly awful scales (triple blesses are expensive). Very few indies can deal with ethereal troops (and the twist fate would soak the first blow) and with their MR boosted to 18, the Shadow Vestals will be very resistant to priests spamming banishment.

[SpaceViking21]

The officials of the Imperial Bureaucracy of T'ien Ch'i have one small addition and related speculation they wish to humbly submit. Ermor has a very strong triple bless, having death-9 or death-10 (there is no visible difference between the two), astral-9 and earth-6 or earth-7 on their god. This blessing gives their Shadow Vestals (who are already ethereal and carrying magic spears) the death weapon bonus, +3 magic resistance, twist fate, +250% affliction chance and +3 reinvigoration. This will also give their sacred casters useful reinvigoration and make all of their damaging spells much more likely to cause afflictions (beware the death bless evocation caster).

Given Ermor's high dom spread, they might have an imprisoned or dormant pretender, a high dom and are recruiting a full compliment of shadow vestals a turn. With a priest to unholy bless them (normal blessing does not work on holy undead units) and a handful of towershield troops to distract archers, Ermor could expand very quickly and cheaply at the expense of having what must be truly awful scales (triple blesses are expensive). Very few indies can deal with ethereal troops (and the twist fate would soak the first blow) and with their MR boosted to 18, the Shadow Vestals will be very resistant to priests spamming banishment.

This seems like kind of a strange choice, considering that Vestals are Cap-only. While he's going to be totally rocking the early game, as the game goes on he'll be forced to rely on them less and less, and his scales will catch up with him as well. I'll talk more about implications of this once we enter the midgame, as i'd rather not cause problems at the moment.

[triqui]

Well, that's true. However, as Tien Chi's buroucrats have said, the bless is useful not only for the Sacred troops. It's good for evocation mages too (gives them 2 lifes, with twist-fate, high MR -good for Bane thugs too- Reinvigoration, and high afliction rate with battlefield evocations.

However, it's my first MP game with Ermor, I'm kinda noob in MP (only 4-5 games) and I've probably messed a couple things, so any debate about my strategy (later on) will be very appreciated :P.

On the economic side: yes, scales are bad. However, the 80% of 1000 is more than the 120% of 500, so it depends on how much you manage to expand as well as the scales. I'm on avereage right now in Income, and that's becouse I lost a battle today (damn lost arrow, hit the priest :/ ). Otherwise, I would had take three provinces this turn, making my Income in the top 3 of the game for now.

I understand that, later in the middle game, I'll suffer from it. Let's see if I manage it fine :)

[Immaculate]

I think i should have practiced my start in SP before trying it out in MP. I can't see my turn 'cause i am not on my gaming computer but the score ranks seem to suggest that neither of my expansion attempts worked this turn… if that’s true, that’s very very bad.

[Immaculate]

I've submitted my turn but got no conformation e-mail.

EDIT: its done- just took much longer than usual.

[SpaceViking21]

Depending on when the game hosts, i might need an extension on this next turn. I'm going to be out of town for most of the weekend.

[Morla]

no problem, i hope that llama fix the server problems.

Do you know if force host will work?

[Anaconda]

it says I stalled..... i ma getting really pist off.

I believe everybody stalled, maybe force host was forced once too many times. Or even more than once.

[Morla]

me too. WTF, we can rollback to turn 8. I´m going to roll back so we did´t lose our turn, dont start your turn until turn 8 has been send.

[Immaculate]

Huh? Whats happening?

I got turn 9 in the mail but not turn 8.

Score tables on the Llamaserver are still for turn 9 currently despite the rollback.

http://www.irvinehousingblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/rollback-montage.jpg

[Morla]

ok the turn rollback was successful. enjoy :D

[Morla]

SpaceViking21 the game will now host at 02:00 GMT on Monday October 3rd, is this good for you, or maybe 12 hours more.

[SpaceViking21]

I actually managed to get my turn in before I got on the road, so you probably don't need to worry about me.

[wonderloss]

In another game I was in, I had a similar problem to the one you are having here. In that game, if I recall correctly, the actual game client was one turn ahead of the website. It was on turn 18, but the website was on turn 17. 2h files would get rejected for being the wrong turn number, and when it finally hosted, everyone staled. You may want to get llamabeast to take a look before trying to continue. When I contacted him, and explained what was going on, he seemed to know exactly what was going on and was able to fix it quickly.
Here (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=47693) is the thread.

[llamabeast]

The website has been out of kilter today, which I think explains the confusion (and I think the staling was because of a force host while the server was being odd). Sorry about that.

The problem wonderloss describes hasn't happened here. I checked all the games (since it did look like that) but they are all in sync, it's just that the website was behind.

[shatner]

The Celestial Bureaucracy, the Center of All, the Orderly Realm, T'ien Ch'i will humbly present a reading into the portents and significance of the all knowing but oft-inscrutable charts. However, we are a nation of scribes and scholars, not bards or tall-tale-telling giants, so our reading is a drier, more info-ladden affair.

Provinces: Ermor rises ever faster, outpacing all. Ulm launches ahead to a distant second, though the army graph hints that this was at some cost, militarily. Marignon and Jotenheim have fallen below the "N-1 provinces in N turns" baseline.

Forts (in Haiku):
Walls are expensive
The masons labor too long
No forts have been built

Income: Again, Ulm launches ahead, this time to first place. A sharp jump like that means some combination of very rich provinces being conquered, money making sites were uncovered by luck events and/or site searching or Ulm has begun to squeeze its citizenry for ever more wealth. As with provinces, a close race is being ran for 2nd place. The four wealthiest nations are also the 4 largest nations, as is often the case. The faithful must be skimping on their tithes, to look at Marignon's plight. Note that wealth from lucky events can not be divined from the charts so Marignon and Machaka could secretly have received unfathomable wealth from on high and we'd never be the wiser.

Gem Income: Ermor sprung to the lead with 9 gems a turn either from one massive find while site searching, or they have found lots of little sites all at once. Man has had recent but steady gains, most likely as their awake pretender goes site searching (see research section). Pythium was in the lead until recently but not because of sites they had found; their capital provides 8 gems a turn instead of the standard 5... for some reason. Fully half the nations have yet to find a single site outside their capital. Note that gems from lucky events and gem generators don't show up on the charts. CBM doesn't have any non-artifact gem generators but some pretenders produce 1-2 gems a turn so these numbers might be lower than the reality of the situation.

Research: Ulm and Man, who both must have awake pretenders (likely rainbow ones at that) were neck-and-neck for research but Man's recent decline indicates their pretender has left the library. Their recent gem income increase backs up this theory. As a result, Ulm has established themselves the most learned of people at this time. Pythium and T'ien Ch'i have a gently upward sloping growth curve, hinting that they are hiring a mage a turn and stuffing them in the library. We wouldn't be able to make that assumption if people had more than one castle, but with just capitals available we can hazard such a guess. Ermor likely has it's mages leading armies, site searching or raising undead (as all Ermor mages are also priests and all Ermor priests can animate additional troops as a special action). Marignon seems to think books are for burning, rather than reading.

Dominion: Jotunheim has a strong lead here, either from an awake pretender (pretenders generate domain like three temples each turn they are alive), a high dominion spread rate or both. Ermor, Ulm and Man have an almost synchronized ascent in 2nd, 3rd and 4th place respectively. Everyone save T'ien Ch'i and Marignon have had their rate of dom-spread slow down, possibly because they are now bumping into their neighbors' dominions. This will not likely slow Marignon or Ulm as the game progresses, given that they both have inquisitors within their clergy who are very skilled in converting heretics to the faith.

Army Size: Marchaka has had a series of leaps and plateaus, leaving them in second place. This implies a buy-save cycle on their part. T'ien Ch'i has risen rapidly, in part because of their recent mercenary contract, but it looks like their line ricocheted off of Ulm's. Ulm must have suffered heavy casualties or lost mercenary contracts to Man this turn. Still, seeing a spike in Ulm's troop numbers is unusual regardless, because high resource troops are hard to mass quickly and ALL of Ulm's troops are high resource. They may have received a bunch of militia from a random event; if so they might have decided to suicide them into some indies rather than pay the upkeep on largely worthless troops. Pythium and Ermor have suffered identical dips. A casual observer might assume the two had warred with one another, but this seems unlikely this early in the game on so large a map. Instead, they must have run afoul of some particularly stubborn indies. Note that this graph shows the literal amalgamated size of all the armies (so the size of each unit added together), meaning that Jotunheim undoubtedly has fewer troops by number than, say, Ermor but each of their gigantic soldiers count for 2 or more of their human-sized counterparts.


Of 153 provinces, 62 are claimed and 91 remain independent of the 8 great powers. The combined armies of all the world's independents mass more than 4.5 times the size of all the 8 empires' armies combined. The world is still mostly unclaimed so a great many things can change before it means war. How do I know these numbers, rather than just the relative values shown on a chart with no numbered axes? Why, from here of course (http://www.llamaserver.net/showScores.cgi?game=MorlaMAnoob). You can get there from the game's llamaserver page, and then clicking on the "Show score tables" link in the bottom left.

[triqui]

Insightful read. :)

[Bullock]

i like this kind of stuff Shatner :)
I want you in my next game !

[Anaconda]

Army Size: Marchaka has had a series of leaps and plateaus, leaving them in second place. This implies a buy-save cycle on their part..


I would rather say it implies a cycle of losing a lot troops every second turn and either resting or not losing every second, if the amount of levy is fixed. On the other hand, it also might mean using money on something else than on fresh levies every second turn, and not losing either at all, or suffering only minor losses which wont be seen on the chart.

[Immaculate]

Yeah- i find those reads very interesting. Can't say how accurate they are but once people feel willing to share, i would be very curious.

And yeah, i'm doing horrible. Lots of problems with 'stubborn indies'. (and just really really rusty- havn't played in over a year and even then i was a newb- still- lots of fun)

[Anaconda]

why, theres no need to send spies into my territories, I am clad to share all there is to share - we humble and poor tribal folk dont have much, thou.

[Morla]

XDD, poor spy he was on his way home, he had family and friends...

[Anaconda]

Your always and aldays friendly, peacefull and usefull neighbours, the machaka people, would be more than happy to forge you items of water breathing.

At this point we can force magic gems to become rings of waterbreathing, but in near future we look forward to be able to deliver more sophisticated items also. Just send you orders in and we can negotiate the price.

[triqui]

We, the people of Ermor, would like to inform that we have used coffins on sale. Our deerly departed seem uncomfortable in them, and we have a few empty ones to trade

:P

[Anaconda]

We the people of Machaka announce that when we have enemies to place in the coffins, we shall turn to our good and dear friends, the people of Ermor.

But let us hope we never have, because we are so friendly and peaceloving tribal folk.

[Anaconda]

We want to add something to our AD.

The pyhtium should not concern him self with our offer. We would be happy to send them hydras to water - but without any kind of water breathing abilities.

[Anaconda]

Ah, one more thing.

I got miself invited to attend a great hydra parade at Pyhtium's.

I know them hydras, so the performace is expected to be very poor. Thats why I am gonna bring my own actors - the whole gypsy train, mummers and everything! - and have my own show at the same province - actually, at the same stage and the street as them hydras. Then we all can judge whos performance was better!

I know them hydras pretty well, and with permission I would say they are highly overrated. Thats the reason I bring in my own entertainment.

But anyways now that we have a celebration, I would like to invite some friends of mine to join it also. So who ever is south from Pythium is more or less mi friend and he should join the hydra parade, especially now that the hydras are here with me he can - let us say - have real fun! And, besides, more the merrier!

[TimpaMan]

Dammit!

First contact with the nation of MAN, and they send me a messenger saying they will kill and conquer my nation, best to surrender! HOW RUDE!!! I guess i have to put up a fight... though i was hoping for a pieceful sandbox game building my castles...

[triqui]

Poor Marco Polo :P

[Anaconda]

The machaka nation has announced a month long celebration to honor those who gave their lives in pursuit of a great victory achieved from filthy Pythium snakes last month.

You see that thick, black smoke at the northern horizon? Its their hydras'carcasses we need to decimate so they dont spread their filth anymore after death. And theres gonna be more smoke!

But while them hydras are running, I would urge all honorable people who live south from the snake lords to seize this opportunity to wipe them scum from the surface of the earth - the hour is now if ever. I hope you all join the frontier of free men who stand up against tyranny and oppression!

[Anaconda]

I am gonna get my turn in just before the host so dont worry, I aint gonna stall.

[Immaculate]

Any chance that a player with a bit more experience can do a run down of statistics analysis again?

All i can tell is that Ulm, Ermor and Man are doing REALLY well and that Tien'chi and Jotunheim aren't far behind (basing this on forts, provinces, incomes). And that Machaka, Marrignon, and myself are bringing up the rear.

Also, i think someone took a bite out of Tien'chi?

[triqui]

My vision (although I'm not as experienced as others)

Province and income-wise, Ermor, Ulm and Man are leading. They all are quite above the average, with 28, 22 and 18 provinces, which is quite a lot. Machaka and Tien'Chi are the bottom half, with 8 and 9 provinces. Income Wise, Marignon is poorer than any other, with 686, seconded by Machaka. The richest countries are Man and Ermor, which is not surprising since they are the larger ones too. Ermor scales prevent them to be the richest, despise being larger than Man.

In castles, Tien Chi, Man and Ulm are leading with 3. Tien Chi seem to be turtling up. They have 3 castles, a small country, number 1 research, and larger army. They might not be impressive right now, but probably will be a major player later, if they survive the initial preassure.

Machaka dominion is very low. They either have a small dominion value, had lost the prophet, are being attacked by a god or prophet, or a combination of those. Jotunheim has the strongest dominion. His SC god is awake now, which means he probably have dom 9 or 10 for awe, and he is spreading dom himself as well.

Army size, the winner is Tien Chi. They are probably massing Archers for later Wind-guided flaming-arrow massacres. The smallest armies are Pythium and Marignon. However, army size is such a bad statistic to look at... 10 hydras can beat easily 10000 militia, and the graph does not show that.


Judging by the charts, it seems Tien Chi got bited, and so did Pythium imho. (pythium lost gem income this turn, both of them lost provinces) Machaka seem to be the one that bite Pythium, and Marignon the one that clashed with the Celestial Buroucracy.


Man and Ulm are powers right now, with huge size, income, castles and research. Ermor is a major power too, but lags in research. Tien Chi is the inverse of Ermor: it looks tiny, but the Research is powerful and their mages are diverse.

[SpaceViking21]

Some bad news. My boss just popped up with an out-of-town job for me that will keep me away from my computer (and thus, dominions) for two weeks. I'll be making a thread to get a temp sub for the mean time.

[Olm]

Dammit!

First contact with the nation of MAN, and they send me a messenger saying they will kill and conquer my nation, best to surrender! HOW RUDE!!! I guess i have to put up a fight... though i was hoping for a pieceful sandbox game building my castles...

Yes, I know it was rude, and I halfway regret.
Had better used Y'Gologna to take water provinces.

[triqui]

We, the people of Ermor, announce we have been attacked by Jotunheim, due to a frontier dispute.

We are also willing to say that the traitorous T'ien Ch'i, who made a deal with us and got 400 gold for it, is going to break that deal and attack us together with the filthy big-people. The Celestial Buroucracy is honorless and deserve no respect, so we are willing to pay, bribe, help and support any nation who is able to make them and their 15 feet tall furry allies suffer in pain and agony.

[Immaculate]

I'm surprised at you- i've seen your elite blessed units in action against vampires and Independents (yes- i had spies there) and they seemed kick ***.

[triqui]

They do, they are quite good. That does not mean I'm not willing to pay, bribe or help anyone willing to fight against Jotun and Tien Chi, those are completelly unrelated facts :P

[SpaceViking21]

I'm surprised at you- i've seen your elite blessed units in action against vampires and Independents (yes- i had spies there) and they seemed kick ***.

They don't like being turned to dust or showers of arrows very much. Figured out that one myself.

15 feet tall furry allies

We prefer "Hairy", thank you very much.

Oh, and now may as well be the time to talk about the implications of such a strong bless on capital-only units. I came to the conclusion that Ermor would need to eat its nearest neighbors very quickly in order to stay afloat in the rankings. Naturally, I want to avoid that, so I attacked him before he could attack me. Builds with that bad of scales generally never want to be sitting back and not warring, you either win big and fast, or collapse under your own weight.

[triqui]

Well, that's a good reasoning, but it's completelly wrong in this case.

As you could have noticed from my income, my economic scales aren't that bad. I have sloth 1, death 1 and cold 1 (which should had been heat, as there was a Jotun and no Abysia). That's all. The rest of the points came from Drain 2 instead of Magic 1. That gives me a small handicap in research. However, I went straight into construction 4. I was going to build 10 skull mentors this turn, and I could even build 4 more if I wanted to. That would had made for the gap, and I could had built a nice midgame strat, with a very decent income (28 provinces and only slightly worse than average scales), and a decent research (Edit: with 10 skull mentors, I'll probably be the fastest researcher next turn)

If I would had wanted to jump early against a country, I would had done with Tien Chi when he was battling Marignon. That would had made him an easy target. Although I respect Shaetner ability a lot, facing 2 differnet countries, one of them triple blessed, with a country with 9 provinces and 700 income is simply impossible. I was not thinking about early aggression, was planning more midgame.

My mistake was not building solid NAPS, with at least one of my neighbours. Assuming those NAPS would had been respected, I would be facing an easier midgame and my plan would be working better. However, it didn't work, so I will have to change my way to fight and face both of you, struggling to survive. That's life.

[SpaceViking21]

As you could have noticed from my income, my economic scales aren't that bad. I have sloth 1, death 1 and cold 1 (which should had been heat, as there was a Jotun and no Abysia). That's all.

I guess I severely overestimated your dominion score then. I assumed you had done sloth 3 death 3 drain 2 and maybe even some misfortune in there.

[Immaculate]

Its hard just to ignore the guy with such a massive province lead either.

[SpaceViking21]

Its hard just to ignore the guy with such a massive province lead either.

This was a pretty big red flag as well. The tallest tree is the one that gets cut first. Of course, whoever ends up winning may have to contend with that problem as well.

[Anaconda]

Jotun, there is liebenraum north of you. Go North young (and big and furry) men! BTW, them hydras get exhausted very quickly because of cold scales and I am taking care of them anyways so they should not bother you.

I am willing to be the moderator of the peace talks, if the conclusion is that Phita is the enemy we all should face and wipe them from the surface of earth. When hes dead we can vote for the winner and live happily ever after under the god's peace.

[SpaceViking21]

Jotun, there is liebenraum north of you. Go North young (and big and furry) men! BTW, them hydras get exhausted very quickly because of cold scales and I am taking care of them anyways so they should not bother you.

I am willing to be the moderator of the peace talks, if the conclusion is that Phita is the enemy we all should face and wipe them from the surface of earth. When hes dead we can vote for the winner and live happily ever after under the god's peace.

We're sort of busy to the south at the moment, you kids have fun though. And remember not to play with sharp objects, because someone could get hurt.

[triqui]

As you could have noticed from my income, my economic scales aren't that bad. I have sloth 1, death 1 and cold 1 (which should had been heat, as there was a Jotun and no Abysia). That's all.

I guess I severely overestimated your dominion score then. I assumed you had done sloth 3 death 3 drain 2 and maybe even some misfortune in there.
I have dom score 8, with sloth 1, death 1, cold 1 drain 2 and a imprisoned Sphynx with the triple bless you all have seen posted here (D9S9E4). Raising from 8 to 9 or 10 vestals per turn is not worth the downside of bad scales.

It was actually a bless for my mages: I was planning to switch midgame to a strat of mages with comunions and powerful evocations (like shadowblast and nether darts). High affliction chances, big evocations, twist fate and reinvigoration sound very good for reverse comunions. The fact that bless made Vestals incredibly powerful was a secondary (and very wellcome) bonus.

However, it's true that leading the game is not a good thing. It's way better being the second one, it's easier to avoid being ganged up :P. I should had take a few less provinces, to avoid such notoriety, I guess. Specially if my plan was not being overly aggresive.

[Anaconda]

Sharp objects and sticky spider web is a good combination!

Like I said, I could be a moderator in peace talks. I doubt Ermor is as vulnerable as Phita. Or even as aggressive.

[SpaceViking21]

As you could have noticed from my income, my economic scales aren't that bad. I have sloth 1, death 1 and cold 1 (which should had been heat, as there was a Jotun and no Abysia). That's all.

I guess I severely overestimated your dominion score then. I assumed you had done sloth 3 death 3 drain 2 and maybe even some misfortune in there.
I have dom score 8, with sloth 1, death 1, cold 1 drain 2 and a imprisoned Sphynx with the triple bless you all have seen posted here (D9S9E4). Raising from 8 to 9 or 10 vestals per turn is not worth the downside of bad scales.

It was actually a bless for my mages: I was planning to switch midgame to a strat of mages with comunions and powerful evocations (like shadowblast and nether darts). High affliction chances, big evocations, twist fate and reinvigoration sound very good for reverse comunions. The fact that bless made Vestals incredibly powerful was a secondary (and very wellcome) bonus.

However, it's true that leading the game is not a good thing. It's way better being the second one, it's easier to avoid being ganged up :P. I should had take a few less provinces, to avoid such notoriety, I guess. Specially if my plan was not being overly aggresive.

That's where I got mixed up. I had assumed since you were the closest in Dominion that you had at least 9 (you've likely figured out that I'm dom 10 from my pretender's presence in the battle).

[Morla]

WOHOOO, lots of info. So this momment is the door into midgame.

Olm do you have PM(Private Messaging) enabeled?, i sent you a message.

[triqui]

That's where I got mixed up. I had assumed since you were the closest in Dominion that you had at least 9 (you've likely figured out that I'm dom 10 from my pretender's presence in the battle).

I built a temple very soon. Most my troops are undead, and they can't be carried by Indie commanders, so I need a factory of Indie priest to do logistic stuff. Otherwise I lose too much mages and regular capitol comanders (lictors) just to move armies around the map from castle to castle or to join other armies and things like that.

[shatner]

My mistake was not building solid NAPS, with at least one of my neighbours. Assuming those NAPS would had been respected, I would be facing an easier midgame and my plan would be working better. However, it didn't work, so I will have to change my way to fight and face both of you, struggling to survive. That's life.

Or undeath, as the case may be. I am deliberately trying to play differently in each MP game I am in, just to get a feel for the MP experience. In my first MP game ever (which is still ongoing) I'm playing as EA T'ien Ch'i and being super-honorable. In this game, when Jotunhiem and I agreed your empire needed a haircut, we decided to sow a little misinformation along the way.

That said, I was deliberate in never offering nor accepting an NAP from you. When you smelled BS and demanded one, I came clean instead. I used weasel words and deliberately left some truths out when dealing with you but I am not, nor ever will be, a pact-breaker. For example, Marignon and I have a fairly long NAP agreement in place. I will not be crossing his border in any way (troops, remote attack spells, even anonymous attack spells) while that agreement holds true. And given how busy I'm likely to be for the next umpteen turns, I'm not likely to want to wage war on Marignon even then.

---

Before all the warring and the scheming, back during an innocent time of murdering indies, I was trying to hire cheap researchers, build castles and expand with cheap-but-effective archer+tower shield troops against the indies. Then Marignon showed up with water blessed Knights of the Chalice and ruined both of my expansion armies. It would have been 3 or 4 turns of frantic research and expensive re-arming before I would have had a chance of even slowing those guys down so I ran with my tail between my legs and cried "peace!" And when Marignon said "sure, for another three of your provinces" I said "Sure!" because keeping peace between me and Marignon at that moment was about the most important thing I could do unless I wanted to completely de-rail my early game booming.

Diplomacy can suck when you are at a disadvantage and the other guys knows that, but it is often better than the alternatives.

[SpaceViking21]

In addition, stagnation is death in these games (as I'm painfully learning as my role in my other MP game ends). In that one, I was a peacefulish, isolationist Niefelheim focused mostly on research than gaining land. I put off a war that should have happened so much earlier to get a little more research done, and when I finally started and ended that war, I was immediately consumed by the conquered nation's neighbor and have only a couple of provinces left (though he's been stalling on finishing me because of my other neighbor, who went to war with him once I got invaded).

Basically, we both needed to expand and eliminate some competition, and we both already had NAPs with our other neighbors, so you ended up with the short straw.

[Immaculate]

Phew

[triqui]

My mistake was not building solid NAPS, with at least one of my neighbours. Assuming those NAPS would had been respected, I would be facing an easier midgame and my plan would be working better. However, it didn't work, so I will have to change my way to fight and face both of you, struggling to survive. That's life.

Or undeath, as the case may be. I am deliberately trying to play differently in each MP game I am in, just to get a feel for the MP experience. In my first MP game ever (which is still ongoing) I'm playing as EA T'ien Ch'i and being super-honorable. In this game, when Jotunhiem and I agreed your empire needed a haircut, we decided to sow a little misinformation along the way.

That said, I was deliberate in never offering nor accepting an NAP from you. When you smelled BS and demanded one, I came clean instead. I used weasel words and deliberately left some truths out when dealing with you but I am not, nor ever will be, a pact-breaker. For example, Marignon and I have a fairly long NAP agreement in place. I will not be crossing his border in any way (troops, remote attack spells, even anonymous attack spells) while that agreement holds true. And given how busy I'm likely to be for the next umpteen turns, I'm not likely to want to wage war on Marignon even then.

---

Before all the warring and the scheming, back during an innocent time of murdering indies, I was trying to hire cheap researchers, build castles and expand with cheap-but-effective archer+tower shield troops against the indies. Then Marignon showed up with water blessed Knights of the Chalice and ruined both of my expansion armies. It would have been 3 or 4 turns of frantic research and expensive re-arming before I would have had a chance of even slowing those guys down so I ran with my tail between my legs and cried "peace!" And when Marignon said "sure, for another three of your provinces" I said "Sure!" because keeping peace between me and Marignon at that moment was about the most important thing I could do unless I wanted to completely de-rail my early game booming.

Diplomacy can suck when you are at a disadvantage and the other guys knows that, but it is often better than the alternatives.

I'm positive that no NAP was offered or accepted. That's my point. I should had enforced one. When both you and Jotun offered a "stable border" right in the begining, I accepted, trying to buy your confidence (as my plan was not being overly aggresive). I should had not accepted. I was the 800 lb gorilla in the early game, so I should had enforced my conditions, just like Marignon did. If you want stable borders, then NAP. If you don't NAP, it's free for all (and since you are not interested in NAP, then you are interested in waring me, so It's better being the one that jumps than the one that got jumped).

I, however, feel that I've been cheated. You offered a deal about not using your troops against me and giving me info about Jotun plans, I agreed, and I paid 400g for that. I did not receive what I paid for, and that's breaking a pact. Imho, that's not different to agreeing to pay 15 gems for a item, paying the gems, and never getting the item. That said, it's not the end of the world, I'm not going to rage-quite. Just that I feel I was cheated, and I can't change what I feel. However, this is a wargame, and we are entitled to war each other, sooner or later. Only one can win, and we all know that any alliance or deal made, must end sooner or later, becouse in the end game everybody has to kill everyone else.

It's not like I'm going to hate you and attack you on sight in any game we cross, I'm not that childish. It's just that I have a different approach to making deals. My approach is not the only valid, though, and we are here to learn. As I told you, I learnt a very valuable lesson today: "Don't trust."

There's a poker saying: in every poker table, there's a fish. If you don't know who the fish is, then you are the fish. I was the fish in this negotiation. I could had jumped on you much earlier, and I did not. Compassion is a bad trait in war :)

That said: I also like to play vastly different. I don't have a lot of MP games in my back (this is my sixth I think), and most of them were done with my RL friends (so it's a sliglthly different metagame). But, however, I like to make different tactics and approachs. In LA with Marignon (a nation often played as late-game and research) I tried to rush the first nation I crossed with (which happened to be you, to my dismay, as I got crushed). In this MA game, I built a very strong early game Nation with triple bless, but my strategy was actually better suited for midgame. I've learned in both games, and I'll do better in next games :)

To SpaceViking21: Let's see how short is the short Straw. I'm not dead yet :P

[Morla]

All right, the items, gems and gold trades are inviolable.

The NAP it´s not binding, but if two nations agree for 3 turn warning before breaking a NAP treaty, this treaty must be enforced , and should be posted in this thread(optional).

Banned are the usual things, copying Bogus orders, excessive Scout blocking(probing armies with scouts/commanders must be done in such a way so as not to block movement), filling other peoples Lab with crap to prevent his own forge.

Do all of you like this?

I think i should look through my english grammar books.

[SpaceViking21]

To SpaceViking21: Let's see how short is the short Straw. I'm not dead yet :P

I meant the diplomatic short straw (as you ended up as the subject of the "hey, let's get this guy and split his stuff" talk), but point taken.

[triqui]

I acctually made a mistake in my sentence. I'm already dead. But that only makes me tougher :-)

[triqui]

Somebody should do a report, it'll be nice to hear how things are going arund the world. We know there's war between pythium and machaka, also between tienchi/jotun and ermor. What about he others? It sounds as if Man and Marignon have their border disputes too, dont they?

Later we should try to tell what strategies went wrong and which ones worked, both us and our oponents ones. Thus we could debate a bit, and learn stuff, so we can take off the "noob" label :-P

[Olm]

Somebody should do a report, it'll be nice to hear how things are going arund the world. We know there's war between pythium and machaka, also between tienchi/jotun and ermor. What about he others? It sounds as if Man and Marignon have their border disputes too, dont they?

Later we should try to tell what strategies went wrong and which ones worked, both us and our oponents ones. Thus we could debate a bit, and learn stuff, so we can take off the "noob" label :-P

I really like your communication in this thread.
I am sorry that my time is very limited atm between my job, building a house, three small children and three games of dom3.
So I will not be communicating that much. Nonetheless I am happy about any diplomatic connection.

Yes, Marignon and me we have some problems. I have to be honest and say it all originated from me.
When I met Marignon he had the fewest provinces, the smallest army and the smallest income. Some rather weak indy provinces right beside his home were not taken, so I thought him an easy target and instantly attacked.
Learned very soon his knights of the chalice are really great, he wiped out one of my armies. He then was too bold and learned that my Knights of Avalon are not bad either, when he lost a good part of his army. Since then our knights have been more or less circling each other without another major fight.
Marignon is much tougher than I thought, and whats puzzeling me: I would have thought our war would drag on other parts of his realm, but the contrary is true. Marignon has improved in all statistics since the start of the war. He is now even the largest of the smaller nations. Don't know how he manages and don't know why he had so slow a start with those great knights. But in the end I am sure he will collapse to my forces. I just bring to much to the fight. Finally my bards and not my knights will decide this war.

Btw: Could anyone comment on the battle between Tien Chi and Machaka? Must have been epic. Really sorry I missed it.

[triqui]

Tien Chi is facing Ermor. Yes, the battle was epic, and despise good mages and priests siding with Tien Chi, the final outcome was, I think, vastly favorable to Ermor. Apostacy is such a great national spell for Ermor that I can not praise it enough, it insta kill enemy sacreds. And that include priestly mages. Solar Rays did quite a lot of damage to Ermor sacred Vestals, though, so it wasn't a free victory.

Right now in that side of the world war, Ermor has recuperated bassically all their initial territory, but 2 provinces (one of them with a castle). Ermor is recruiting more than he is losing, and seems holding well, although still at numeric disventage when you add up both Tien Chi and Jotun troops. The SC chasis of Jotun Good is quite impressive, and it won't be really easy to face them, but at the very least, Ermor has survived the initial "shock and awe" phase of surprise war, so probably would be a long war.

On your question about Marignon: I bet, like LA Ulm and other Resource Heavy nations, that Knights of Chalice aren't easy to build up. Probably he can recruit 1, maybe 2 in the first few turns. 1 soldier, no matter how good (with maybe the exception of Niefelheim sacreds), can't take province on their own. So Marignon probably was struggling to beat the indies around their capitol slowly. Once he cleared his capitol and got full resources, there's no doubt W9 Knights of the Chalice are a force to reckon. Lots of armies fold to them like there's no hope. Tien Ch'i was wise to surrender 3 provinces to them: armies of composite bows barely scratch them before they annhilate the entire army. Probably Marignon did accept the deal from Tien Ch'i becouse of you. Facing 2 opponents is not fun, and he sealed one of the fronts before facing you with his entire army. Without you in the equation, there is no reason for Marignon to seal a pact with Tien Ch'i for 3 provinces, becouse he could just take those 3 provinces, and everyone after that, before Tien Ch'i could get a proper counter from magic. With you facing him too, his diplomatic movement makes much more sense. You are a big country (biggest right now), so he need to focus all his attention on you, and the best way to do so is with a solid friend in his other side.

PS: Assasinating a giant sized fully armored Jotun Herse with lowly cheap skeletons is sooo dirty and fun :)

[TimpaMan]

The Nation of Man is soon becoming too powerful for anyone to stop him. I am the only one fighting him at the moment, and as soon as I collapse (which is eventually going to happen), he well devour my realm as full, and become too big for any1 to really challenge him anymore. So unless you other players dont want to grant him the "free win" card, exploit the moment now to attack him, while he has major forces tied to my doorstep at south. Ill be able to hold him here for a turn or two, but soon the window will be closed as I collapse... Take your advantage now on other fronts !!!

Brave men of Marignon fight until the last breath!

TimpaMan

[Immaculate]

Interesting Tid-bits of news from around the world. I really like hearing it,


“The Pythium Senate offers a proclomation,

We of Pythia have long been at war with the crunchy spiders of Machaka. They have witnessed, time and time again, the glory that is the hydra parade and though they often try to reroute our parade through side-streets and alleys with their riot-police and tear-gas, the parade’s pomp and splendor will not be denied.”


For Pythia and Maraka, its been pretty much back and forth with no major gains by either party yet. We’ve been fighting over the same 3-4 provinces for about 7-8 turns. So far its only making everyone else stronger.

[SpaceViking21]

PS: Assasinating a giant sized fully armored Jotun Herse with lowly cheap skeletons is sooo dirty and fun :)

You managed to get the only guy on that stack whose entire script was holdx5 stay behind troops. Kinda wish you could script them differently for battle and for assassination attempts. Oh well.

[Immaculate]

Yeah, Machaka assassinated one of my casters. The spell he cast (and was scripted to cast) before he was slain? communion slave!

Yeah, doesn't help you against an assassin with a bane blade much does it?

Oh well- makes assassins actually somewhat viable- otherwise they would completely suck.

[triqui]

PS: Assasinating a giant sized fully armored Jotun Herse with lowly cheap skeletons is sooo dirty and fun :)

You managed to get the only guy on that stack whose entire script was holdx5 stay behind troops. Kinda wish you could script them differently for battle and for assassination attempts. Oh well.

Not really a difference, imho. An assasin with the skull ammulet can kill any other commander in the world, provided that that other commander don't have 2 attacks. It's absolutelly impossible that a Jotun Hirdemen kill more than 1 skellie per turn, and the assassin build 1 skellie per turn. Sooner or later the Jotun will miss an attack, even if only of pure bad luck, and then it will be dead. He can kill 1 skellie, but has 2 on him and one extra getting there every turn.

There are ways to avoid this, sure (which i'll gladly share in a couple of turns if nobody does before :) ), but I doubt scripting any different set up of orders will change the result.

[Olm]

I did not try yet, but I guess a vine shield would help in that situation. throw in a firebrand with its AOE and you should loose.
Fr me thats a quite common equipment on my thugs.

[Olm]

Other possibilities: take body guards, or a mage with protection high enough to stand the skeletons,summons also will help

[Immaculate]

How do bodyguards work?

[SpaceViking21]

I did not try yet, but I guess a vine shield would help in that situation. throw in a firebrand with its AOE and you should loose.
Fr me thats a quite common equipment on my thugs.

Well, the big problems there were:

1. I can only forge frost brands at the moment. To my knowledge, frost brands are ineffective (or less effective) against skeletonspam.

2. He got a Herse, which I generally don't even bother outfitting as they're pretty mediocre unless someone else can bless them (and then I'd rather have a Jarl bless himself and go at it).

3. The big weakness of giants in this situation is their size. Since every attack towards a unit reduces their defence, he can glob more guys onto my giant commanders and win via attrition (those skeletons will hit eventually).

That said, I do have stuff in place now to help against that, but I can't talk about it now (for obvious reasons), and I'm not sure if it's going to be the silver bullet for that strat or if it will fail utterly.

[SpaceViking21]

How do bodyguards work?

If you assign troops to "guard commander", then they will be present during assassination attempts. However, only 5 at a time can act as bodyguards.

[triqui]

How do bodyguards work?

If you assign troops to "guard commander", then they will be present during assassination attempts. However, only 5 at a time can act as bodyguards.

This is the best solution, yep.


Vineshield (or any protection actually) won't really work. In an assasination, once the assassin start to create 1 minion per turn (skellies or imps), the victim is defenceless unless it can:
1) fly
2) kill more than one skellie per turn and still move (quicken self for example).

Every single turn, one skellie is built. Once you are "grab" in combat, your only action is to attack. You attack one of the skellies and there are 2 options:
1) you kill the skellie, so you are grab by the next one in the queue
2) you don't kill the skellie, so right now there are 2 skellies in the queue, you can't kill them faster than they produce, and you will eventually go down. At the very least, you will fail morale sooner or later (fleeing from assasination means death), while skellies are unroutable.

The easy counter is to put bodyguards. While one of the body guards kill the skellie, the main character advance (or the other way: the character kill and the guard advance). The assasins aren't nothing to write home about stat wise (the human ones at least), so pretty much any soldier would kill him.

But they are damn cheap, and a cool tool to try here and there. They aren't the ultimate weapon, but they do their tricks.

[Olm]

How do bodyguards work?

If you assign troops to "guard commander", then they will be present during assassination attempts. However, only 5 at a time can act as bodyguards.

Unless you use a ring of warning, then its 10 bodyguards.
But 5 Knights of Avalon or Wardens of Avalon would make a short story of that skellyspam.

[Olm]

[QUOTE=Olm;786127]
3. The big weakness of giants in this situation is their size. Since every attack towards a unit reduces their defence, he can glob more guys onto my giant commanders and win via attrition (those skeletons will hit eventually).


I don't think thats important. If you only have one unit it can be attacked from all surrounding squares. Regardless if it is a Jarl or an Hoburg.

[triqui]

How do bodyguards work?

If you assign troops to "guard commander", then they will be present during assassination attempts. However, only 5 at a time can act as bodyguards.

Unless you use a ring of warning, then its 10 bodyguards.
But 5 Knights of Avalon or Wardens of Avalon would make a short story of that skellyspam.

LOL :P
5 guys with clubs will beat the crap of that skelliespam :P

[Olm]

Vineshield (or any protection actually) won't really work. In an assasination, once the assassin start to create 1 minion per turn (skellies or imps), the victim is defenceless unless it can:
1) fly
2) kill more than one skellie per turn and still move (quicken self for example).


Well the shield will hold the skellies, the brand will wipe one square (=3 skellies).
I'd bet it would work.

[triqui]

the brand alone is enough to win, I think. The Vine Shield won't add much (in this very specific situation. It's a wonderful item, no doubt)

I made some test before making the attempt, anything that can kill 2 skellies in a round will defeat them. That includes a werewolf with 2 claw attacks: eventually will find a spot to advance a couple steps, until he has the chance to put his claws into the poor assasin.

However, anything not able to kill at least 2 skellies a turn (or kill one and advance), is pretty much doomed. And that includes some (few) SC Pretener chasis...

[SpaceViking21]

and THAT'S why he's the king.

[triqui]

Yep, it's a good SC chasis.

[shatner]

Ermor has been handling itself well against T'ien Ch'i. And just as importantly, T'ien Ch'i has not been handling itself particularly well against Ermor (more on this below). The particulars of Ermor's front against the giants we know almost nothing about.

T'ien Ch'i is a nation characterized by two things: magical diversity (all paths but blood and death are available in meaningful quantities to MA T'ien Ch'i) and specialized troops. T'ien Ch'i has composite bows, crossbows, towershields and spears (in light, medium and heavy infantry varieties), glaves (also in light, medium and heavy), pikes, cavalry archers, medium cavalry archers and straight-up heavy cavalry. Their recruitable commanders include have cheap patrollers, spies, healers, fortune-telling priests, cheap sacred researchers, sage-bonus researchers who can be hired without a lab, cheap communion casters as well as two flavors of super diverse cap-only mages. Their recruit screen is substantially larger than most other nations'. About the only things they don't do are recruitable thugs and sacred soldiers worth creating a bless around. However, all their troops are either unimpressive outside of their specialty or too resource-heavy to properly mass. That means you either bring the right tool to the fight or you face an expensive battle (win or lose). This includes bringing the right magic to a fight because T'ien Ch'i under-performs without good magical back-up unless facing indie-level opposition.

The normal response to high-caliber undead is to spam dust to dust; a low-research, D1 spell. Unforunately, MA T'ien Ch'i, unlike every other age of T'ien Ch'i, has no native death access so we've been forced to use the S2, evocation spell Solar Rays instead. So T'ien Ch'i charged into the battle with a finely tuned and intricately crafted host meant to burn the undead to cinders with stellar lasers... only to find that the undead aren't nearly as laser-able as was previously hoped. I'm not 100% sure why; I thought that spell didn't allow for an MR save but it just doesn't seem to be zapping particularly well. Regardless, T'ien Ch'i has lost a few minor and one major engagement with Ermor and has been engaging in a fighting retreat ever since.

Either we will find something that does work or we will be overrun and assimilated into the Ermorian empire. Playing T'ien Ch'i gives you access to almost every type of unit and almost every type of spell this game has to offer, which is excellent. However, until you learn to use those troops effectively and until you do whatever is required to unlock those spells (research, forging boosters, forming communions, etc.) you are a slightly expensive and very squishy nation of humans wearing robes.

T'ien Ch'i: succeeding or failing really, really big with virtually nothing in-between.

[Olm]

It was a bristling cold dawn in the province of Feldan Woods when finally the two large hosts of knights clashed. Man forces where prepared and waiting. 32 Knights of Avalon on their white unicorns. White armor, blue shields, glistening lances and horns shimmering with magic. Commanded by Lancelot, their commander, a black spot in their ranks due to his black steel plate armor.
In addition 17 Knights, commanded by Beorthric the Knight of the Stone.
Those forces were supported by a squad of longbowmen commanded by Cibragol, a host of ghouls under Yazrid ibn Hassar, some Wardens and the local Militia. And last but not least by several mothers of Avalon and Bards.

The Marignon attackers brought 48 Knights of the Chalice under Angelique d'Armant the Heroine and Peter the Paladin (so 51:50, counting the horses). They were supported by few foot soldiers, 2 High Inquisitors and one Grand Master.

Man opened the fight by Songs of Quickness and some Lightning Bolts. Then the ghouls and Militia attacked. The Knights waited.
The Marignon Knights charged into the Ghouls, piercing a many of them with their lances, which became useless after this charge.

Then the countercharge of Mans Knight came and their Lances finished the lives of many a Knight of the Chalice. This decisive charge essentially sealed the fate of Marignon, tilting the numbers in Mans favor. Marignon fought valiantly, and many a Knight of Avalon died, but the outcome was inevitable.

Great deeds were performed that day the greatest by Beorthric, who charged all alone to the back of the Marignon formation, taking on 7 Knights of the Chalice single handedly. He took several minor wounds but in the end he saw the tails of his enemies horses.

The battle was over by noon. The snow all around a bloody mess, littered with corpses of men and horses.

20 Knights of Avalon and 12 Knights survived the day. Together with most of the Archers and Wardens. Of the leaders of Man only one Mother fell. The Ghouls were eradicated completely.

Of Marignon 9 Knights managed to flee the field of battle as well as the Heroine the Paladin and one of the High Inquisitors.

A glorious victory for Avalon, which opens up the road to Marignon itself!

[TimpaMan]

Yep. End came sooner than I thought. Man was too strong for me to fight him solo. Didnt have really much chances from the beginning, surprisedly managed this far. My production is at 0 atm, cos of his spellcasting etc (unrest at capital over100), armies cruished, so basicly theres only my army free provinces there for him to cap now. As I told before, he will devour my country now as whole, and get some 10+ provinces more...

Good luck stopping him after this.
Well, its good time for me to quit anyhow, leaving on trip on tuesday, wouldnt have been able to play next week anyway:)

Made marignon computer controlled. Thx for the game guys.

TimpaMan

[Olm]

Yep. End came sooner than I thought. Man was too strong for me to fight him solo. Didnt have really much chances from the beginning, surprisedly managed this far. My production is at 0 atm, cos of his spellcasting etc (unrest at capital over100), armies cruished, so basicly theres only my army free provinces there for him to cap now. As I told before, he will devour my country now as whole, and get some 10+ provinces more...

Good luck stopping him after this.
Well, its good time for me to quit anyhow, leaving on trip on tuesday, wouldnt have been able to play next week anyway:)

Made marignon computer controlled. Thx for the game guys.

TimpaMan

You decided the time yourself by attacking me.
We could have circled each other for several more turns, but that would only have made me stronger so I can understand your decision and anticipated it. I mustered all my troops in the region in that province. Had you won, that would have probably bought you a year time or so.

I have to thank you for the fight. It was fun.

I am sorry I had to kick you so early. Normally I am much more diplomatic, but you seemed so week (which was a misinterpretation, I know now) that I could not think of you as a valuable ally. My only other option for an enemy would have been Ermor, but he was very strong then, and it would have meant a very long and costly war with uncertain outcome. So I decided you as the target. I hope you don't take it personal and had at least a little fun. CU

[Olm]

My production is at 0 atm, cos of his spellcasting etc (unrest at capital over100)
TimpaMan

Yes, thats the work of my Bards.

[triqui]

The normal response to high-caliber undead is to spam dust to dust; a low-research, D1 spell. Unforunately, MA T'ien Ch'i, unlike every other age of T'ien Ch'i, has no native death access so we've been forced to use the S2, evocation spell Solar Rays instead. So T'ien Ch'i charged into the battle with a finely tuned and intricately crafted host meant to burn the undead to cinders with stellar lasers... only to find that the undead aren't nearly as laser-able as was previously hoped. I'm not 100% sure why; I thought that spell didn't allow for an MR save but it just doesn't seem to be zapping particularly well. Regardless, T'ien Ch'i has lost a few minor and one major engagement with Ermor and has been engaging in a fighting retreat ever since.

Either we will find something that does work or we will be overrun and assimilated into the Ermorian empire. Playing T'ien Ch'i gives you access to almost every type of unit and almost every type of spell this game has to offer, which is excellent. However, until you learn to use those troops effectively and until you do whatever is required to unlock those spells (research, forging boosters, forming communions, etc.) you are a slightly expensive and very squishy nation of humans wearing robes.

T'ien Ch'i: succeeding or failing really, really big with virtually nothing in-between.

I was planning to say it later, but now the debate arised, I'll talk about that.

Dust to dust is NOT a good spell against the Vestals. It offer you nothing that any other evocation spell do not.

Dust to dust do 22 AN armor in AoE 1 with precision 3. However, the vestals have 9 hp and protection 0. Any other spell kills them exactly wih the same way. A fireball kills them exactly as a dust to dust does.
Solar Rays work much much much better. It has much higher precision, and although its lower damage, it kills them right on the spot regardless. It does not allow you MR check. But my vestals have S9 bless, that means they ignore the first hit, including spells. That, however,is true for Dust to Dust, which, in addition, miss much more (due to lower precision bonus). And both kill them right in the spot.

The reason Jotun managed to have great success against Vestals with Dust to Dust in our fisrt battle, was becouse the Vestals were guided by indie priest, and had wrong script. Indie priest unholy bless area is tiny, and most of them went into battle without Twist Fate frim S9 bless. Then Dust to dust killed them, yes. But any other AoE 1+ will have done the trick: fireball, flare, lightning bolt, cold bolt... Some of thise have higher precision, some others have higher AoE. And anyone that does 9+ damage is so good to kill them as Dust to Dust is.

Solar Ray is the best low level spell against them imho. Its just that S9 bless force you to kill them twice. But that is so regardless of the spell used

[SpaceViking21]

Well, the reason I've been using Dust is because access to D1 is much, much more common than access to S2 for Jotunheim. My only S2 option is to recruit a cap-only mage and hope for lucky randoms. D1 is available as a 1/4 shot from any fort, and guaranteed at the capital.

[triqui]

Sure. And it's very easy to research too, it's harder to research evo3 just for solar ray, if you have nothing else of interest in the path.

What I mean is that any single AoE in the game is so good against Vestals as Dust to Dust is. A Flare kills them just as good.

Dust to Dust really shines against high HP high Prot undeads, such as Bane Lords, Behemoths, or even Joun Longdeads. Vestals are fragile and have no prot, 22AN is just as good as 9 normal damage against thm.

[SpaceViking21]

OK, here's the deal. I'm going to be out of town on weekdays for five days straight, for the next three weeks. I come home on weekends, but that's not going to fit the host schedule. So basically:

1. I need a sub. I've made a post in the forum, but no hits so far.

2. We change the host schedule to a 6/7 day host. I'll be able to keep playing when I'm back on weekends, but this will slow the game down drastically and I wouldn't blame anyone for not liking this option.

Any ideas?

[Olm]

I can live with a slow period in the game.
Better than making an important nation AI.
We should slow down anyway some time soon, because turns tend to become longer now.

[triqui]

:(
6 days host is quite a ton for such interesting game. If you can't find a sub that's the only other solution I can see, though.

[Morla]

Don´t worry, if a miracle sub doesn´t shows up i´ll change hosting interval.

[Morla]

We can try something, in MorlaLAnoob we had the same issue, and triqui :angel comes to our rescue.

He was losing in MorlaLAnoob and goes AI to sub another nation in the same game. Machaka is facing destruction, maybe Anaconda can help us this time.

[triqui]

the difference is I was beyond hope in LA Morla, Anaconda still has options I think. Although this turn his armies made a huge drop, it looks like he got a huge lose.
If he can substitute, it's a good option though.

[Immaculate]

If he does, i would like to hear about his pretender design and short life.

[triqui]

I just checked the scores in Llamaserver, I thought Machaka was in better position. It has 3 provinces, he's pretty much out. Sounds as a good substitute for Jotunheim, actually.

[Immaculate]

That battle really put a few of my guys in the hall of fame- i know its temporary but it looks pretty cool for me for right now. :P

[Immaculate]

All right, the items, gems and gold trades are inviolable.

The NAP it´s not binding, but if two nations agree for 3 turn warning before breaking a NAP treaty, this treaty must be enforced , and should be posted in this thread(optional).



The senate of Pythium is glad to announce a NAP (5 turns) between itself and the nation of Ulm. Additionally, the nation of Ulm agrees to provide the Pythium senate with a staff of elemental mastery within 2-4 turns.

(just so its all on the up and up)


Additionally, Pythia would like to reveal to the world the existance of a NAP (3 turns) between itself and Jotunheim.

[triqui]

That battle really put a few of my guys in the hall of fame- i know its temporary but it looks pretty cool for me for right now. :P

Your's is trully a nation of Heroes. I wonder how they managed to make such amount of kills. Were they equiped (with frostbrands/firebrands, etc)?

[Olm]

Marignon already went AI, you could ask TimpaMan to sub.

[triqui]

Marignon already went AI, you could ask TimpaMan to sub.

He was going on holidays, I don't know if he could do the sub. Would be a great option too.

[Anaconda]

he might be able later this week, i dont know at all if hes will thou. I cant neither, I am sry.

[Immaculate]

That battle really put a few of my guys in the hall of fame- i know its temporary but it looks pretty cool for me for right now. :P

Your's is trully a nation of Heroes. I wonder how they managed to make such amount of kills. Were they equiped (with frostbrands/firebrands, etc)?


Trade secrets and all that :p

[Anaconda]

Sure, I can trade secrets! Thuderstrike communion <-> vast tribal chaff

[Immaculate]

EDIT: forget that- i see the issue has been already addressed on the previous page



Since this is supposed to be a learning experience, it would be nice if Marrignon and Machaka players discussed their pretender build, strategy, and all that...

[Anaconda]

Sure, I can write AAR. After the action of course - not a turn before.

[triqui]

ZOMG.
It seems like China is overpopulated...

[shatner]

T'ien Ch'i is a nation of plenitude. However abundant our living, at least our dead have the decency to stay buried.

[triqui]

I'm hoping my scouts reports aren't accurate. Those are two really really big armies in my screen...

That's what happen when you use ethereal undead as scouts. They are capable to take down castles, but they suck at reporting :/

[SpaceViking21]

I'm okay with Anaconda subbing if he is. Just keep me in the loop. Also, if we ended up changing the host schedule, It'll be 7 day instead of 6, since my return and leave again times are pretty unknown.

[Anaconda]

Like pointed out, I cant sub. And my own game aint done either.

[SpaceViking21]

Like pointed out, I cant sub. And my own game aint done either.

Oh, sorry. Didn't see that.

[triqui]

:(
I guess we are bound to 7 days "quick"hosts then :P

[SpaceViking21]

Hey Morla, can you change the host interval?

[Morla]

Done

[SpaceViking21]

Just sent my turn in. I'm not expecting doing much today and tomorrow, so hopefully we can get a few turns cranked out before I'm back in the field again. Thanks for your patience.

[triqui]

It seems Llamaserver is K.O. :/
Have all turns received but haven't sent the new one

[SpaceViking21]

There we go.

[Anaconda]

So I have given my final blow to evil Pythium and will become computer controlled, I'll write my Short History of Machaka Time in near future.

[Anaconda]

AAR

I played Machaka completely wrong from the turn one. Instead of researcher I relyed on SC pretender and she was designed horribly. Because of that, she died. Then, I didnt concentrate on massing spider riders out of the assembly line, but militia, archers and hoplites. That was my second mistake and the worst of the (4 or so) major mistakes. Before turn 10 I got attacked by Phita, and his small hydra parade made my PD **** their pants (if they got those, I dunno).

I achieved a small victory and was able to stop his parade with hunter spiders from Foul Sacrifice. Even then I didnt realize I should start massing spider riders, but instead tried to muster underwater raiding forces. Underwater raiding was kinda successfull but given my current situation by far sub-optimal decision.

While I was confused and didnt really do anything smart, Phita got their thunderstrike communion ready and used it to bring down my oversized chaff PDs. Meanwhile I was finally trying to prepare vine men and wine ogres in order to counter the poison threat, but even those by far too late and they never saw serious action no matter some were ready to take up arms. Those, even if fielded, were ofcourse too late because Hydras werent anymore the threat but the lightning communion, which I couldnt figure out how to counter at all in the end.

My single most successfull move was to hire a assassin and equip him. He, under my service, took out two theurgs and one indie commander so hiring him was very cost effective. It could have have been a smart move to equip even two or three more, because if I could have been able to take out more theurgs Phita's thunderstrike communion would have failed bad and I would have bought mi self more time. He actually lost quite a few of his slaves because of exhaustion anyways - I can only imagine what the outcome of the last battle would have been if he just would have had couple of them slaves less than he did.

And BTW, the assassin is still out there. He left my service when the kingdom collapsed and most likely he will look opportunities to avenge the fate of his former masters... we got pretty close I have to admit.



Mistakes made in nutshell:

- wrong kind of pretender
- lion tribe shamans
- wrong kind of troops
- not planning ahead, and unable to adapt when the need arise.


Lesson learned:

- science pretender
- income scales
- massed spider riders, no matter if facing poison or not
- dont waste your money on lion tribe shamans
- waste your money on assassins instead, and equip them with boots giving more APs.

[Immaculate]

Any chance you'll share more about your pretender?

[Immaculate]

OH yeah, and from the Pythium point of view, we thought we were going to get crushed several times and tried to sue for peace but where unable to get one- even when we destroyed their main army. Fear and terror were working really good against the hydras and i had no real counter for that so i tried to sue for peace. I thought i was going to get overrun (and would have been) but Machaka stopped their push.

[Anaconda]

Yes, I admit, one of the major mistakes might have been that I was being way tooooo carefull at the early stages of the war.

Oh god, my pretender I cant remember the bless but she was mid-bless snake lady, queen of serpents or something. Bless was attack, def, reg and reinvigoration if I recall correctly?

I was expeting to be able to spam hunter spiders but I made mistake in massing lion tribe shamans when I should have saved for fort to hire sorceress' and make them cast Foul Sacrifice.

However, I dont think fear and terror and dread made the difference?

I though you scripted retreat in order to drag my chaff into the poison cloud? Its breaking news to me if my combat spells caused the reatreat? What happened, thou, was that a punch of hunter spiders pinned escaping hydras down with web and finished them off. But because I was overly cautious, the fruits of the victory were short lived.

[Immaculate]

i thought it was your terror spam.

this is my first game in over 18 months or so so i am bound to get lots of stuff wrong.

i was really really worried you would attack before evocation 4 was done.

[Anaconda]

It was most likely terror späm if you didnt script retreat!

[SpaceViking21]

I'll be in town for a few more hours before we get back on the road again, so if the turn hosts in the next hour or two I'll be able to do one more. If not, it'll be Friday.

[triqui]

I'm quite busy to write one, but I'm missing some AAR :/

[SpaceViking21]

Alright, hopefully this will be the last week of 7 day host. I'm gonna be here til Monday morning, so let's get some turns done in the mean time.

[triqui]

It's beeing an interesting war :)

[SpaceViking21]

It's beeing an interesting war :)

Yeah, the fact that Vestals are stealthy never crossed my mind, even though I've been seeing battle reports with them for a while now. That was an unpleasant surprise.

[Olm]

Congrats to Shatner.
Very nice reverse communion with gifts from heaven spam. I was happy to be only a spectator and no participant of that battle. A nightmare to be target of that meteor shower. I guess the once mighty ermorian empire has some dire time ahead.

[SpaceViking21]

Crossing my fingers, but I think that's the last of those damn vestals. Got your prophet too, so this day was a good one.

[shatner]

Congrats to Shatner.
Very nice reverse communion with gifts from heaven spam. I was happy to be only a spectator and no participant of that battle. A nightmare to be target of that meteor shower. I guess the once mighty ermorian empire has some dire time ahead.

Many thanks for the kind words, but they are deserved of both combatants. Ermor has been a tenacious, resourceful and skilled opponent. Had we challenged them alone, we would have lost and lost swiftly. T'ien Ch'i has payed dearly from the conflict and every soldier and priest will say that Ermor is a blight that, left unchecked, would have consumed all. However, every soldier and priest will say that there has been no worthier a foe than Ermor. The fact that it took a 19 mage communion calling down no less than 150 meteors to ruin their army is proof of their terrifying strength and resolve. Cheers to a worthy opponent!

Now, please, please, please stay dead.

[triqui]

It has been a damn interesting war!
Facing two oponents is allways a nightmare (twice as much capital only units, twice as much orders, twice the reserach...), but facing both Tien Chi and Jotun proves to be a complete challenge. Not only they got the shock and awe of surprise attack, but they have absolutelly different threats that need absolutelly different answers:
Jotun has a full decked out SC God, backed up with spare, powerful, high hit points strong units. Tien Chi on the other hand, has huge amounts of standard troops (thanks to his soldier poping god), backed up by large amounts of low level mages that comunion. It's quite the opposite angle.

Both threats are dangerous, but facing both threats at the same time, is too much: whatever counter you research to face the SC is completelly useless against masses of archers, troops and mages. Whatever you research or recruit to face Tien Chi combination, is just a joke against Jotun high HP, high Threat units.

However, despise facing utter defeat, I'm quite happy about most my design choices. I'm planning to write a guide about Ermor, I think my build worked smooth. My diplomacy was not that good, though :P.

I'll keep doing turns just to avoid stalling everybody, but my nation is pretty much doomed. I'll be eated by both Tien Chi and Jotun in no time. But had a blast in this war, very good one :)

[Immaculate]

I am very much looking forward to the AAR.

Now, what is Man and Ulm up to?

[SpaceViking21]

That was indeed a good war, worthy of song and tales for years to come! I've also learned a lot on Pretender design from my early weaknesses in the war, as well as what Jotun needs early on.

I'm also pretty curious about Ulm and Man, seems like they've been pretty quiet.

[Olm]

It has been a damn interesting war!
Facing two oponents is allways a nightmare (twice as much capital only units, twice as much orders, twice the reserach...), but facing both Tien Chi and Jotun proves to be a complete challenge. Not only they got the shock and awe of surprise attack, but they have absolutelly different threats that need absolutelly different answers:
Jotun has a full decked out SC God,


I have seen their god, and I wouldn't call him a SC.


backed up with spare, powerful, high hit points strong units. Tien Chi on the other hand, has huge amounts of standard troops (thanks to his soldier poping god), backed up by large amounts of low level mages that comunion. It's quite the opposite angle.

Both threats are dangerous, but facing both threats at the same time, is too much: whatever counter you research to face the SC is completelly useless against masses of archers, troops and mages. Whatever you research or recruit to face Tien Chi combination, is just a joke against Jotun high HP, high Threat units.

However, despise facing utter defeat, I'm quite happy about most my design choices. I'm planning to write a guide about Ermor, I think my build worked smooth. My diplomacy was not that good, though :P.


I think that was the problem.
You started out very strong, and I was happy someone tried to reign you in.
But I missed the point where you just got to much into the disadvantage.
Had you asked for help, I would have probably provided it to stop the giants from getting as strong as they are now. And you probably should have had an ally from the start. Thats something to learn: Don't underestimate diplomacy, talk to your neighbors.


I'll keep doing turns just to avoid stalling everybody, but my nation is pretty much doomed. I'll be eated by both Tien Chi and Jotun in no time. But had a blast in this war, very good one :)

I am happy you had fun with this game. Makes my decisions easier :-)


The nation of Man takes all that has been said here as an unconditional surrender of the ermorian empire and regards that empire as not existing anymore. Man troops will start seizing ermorian provinces on the central island immediately. Of those provinces we claim the three provinces between the Glimmering Fields and the Midge Fens as well as those two provinces as part of our realm. All other provinces may be subject to negotiations, if other nations do wish so.
We want to emphasize to T'ien Chi that this is only valid for ermorian provinces on the island. We have no interest in provinces east of the southern river.

[SpaceViking21]

The nation of Man takes all that has been said here as an unconditional surrender of the ermorian empire and regards that empire as not existing anymore. Man troops will start seizing ermorian provinces on the central island immediately. Of those provinces we claim the three provinces between the Glimmering Fields and the Midge Fens as well as those two provinces as part of our realm. All other provinces may be subject to negotiations, if other nations do wish so.
We want to emphasize to T'ien Chi that this is only valid for ermorian provinces on the island. We have no interest in provinces east of the southern river.


YOU WILL DO NO SUCH THING.

As King Harald's head lawyer, Hrimmner, I have to file a cease and desist against Morgan La Fey and her minions against claiming any of Ermor's provinces, invoking the ancient Rite of Conquest. The law states that no non-participant in a conflict may lay claim to any portion of the spoils until after the conflict has ended and the land divided between the victors. Note that one is only considered a participant if he declares war before an admission of defeat.

Just because the ancient rites were created long before your people does not excuse ignorance of the customs.

[Immaculate]

Ulm never got that memo...


(speaking of which- you (Ulm) still owe me (Pythium) a staff- its overdue now and the deal was published here in thread which is supposed to make it official... and binding...)

[Olm]

YOU WILL DO NO SUCH THING.


The Mistress of Avalon does not accept being shouted at, nor does she take commands by anyone! For this insolence she expects the head of the originator to be presented to her within a month. If that happens We assume that person acted on itself and without consent of King Harald, and we can discuss further relations. If not We have to abort diplomatic relations to the Jotun nation, since We are not willing to discuss with such impolite ambassadors.

[SpaceViking21]

YOU WILL DO NO SUCH THING.


The Mistress of Avalon does not accept being shouted at, nor does she take commands by anyone! For this insolence she expects the head of the originator to be presented to her within a month. If that happens We assume that person acted on itself and without consent of King Harald, and we can discuss further relations. If not We have to abort diplomatic relations to the Jotun nation, since We are not willing to discuss with such impolite ambassadors.



YOU MISUNDERSTAND. THIS IS OUR NORMAL SPEAKING VOICE. IN ANY CASE, IF YOU FIRST RENOUNCE ANY CLAIMS ON ERMOR'S LAND, WE CAN DISCUSS A TRADE OF SOME KIND.

[Morla]

Meanwhile in the dephs of the Forges of Ulm, Aresha after an unfortunate explosion in the lab, was very busy forging the Staff of Elemental Mastery.

We the peaceful nation of Ulm request two lands from Jotun that belongs to Ermor: Pack Woods(81) and The Woodlands(80).

[Immaculate]

Thanks Aresha!

[SpaceViking21]

Meanwhile in the dephs of the Forges of Ulm, Aresha after an unfortunate explosion in the lab, was very busy forging the Staff of Elemental Mastery.

We the peaceful nation of Ulm request two lands from Jotun that belongs to Ermor: Pack Woods(81) and The Woodlands(80).

Oh, since you asked so nicely, hit me up in PMs and we can discuss a trade.

[triqui]

I think that was the problem.
You started out very strong, and I was happy someone tried to reign you in.
But I missed the point where you just got to much into the disadvantage.
Had you asked for help, I would have probably provided it to stop the giants from getting as strong as they are now. And you probably should have had an ally from the start. Thats something to learn: Don't underestimate diplomacy, talk to your neighbors.
Well, I made SEVERAL posts in this threads where I explicitly asked for any help, saying I would pay, bribe, or ally with anyone willing to attack either Tien Chi or Jotun. The problem was that the two nations that had borders with them where not willing to do so (I asked them repeatidely), and the rest of the nations (like Man) where very far away, and too interested in growing while watching the decline of Ermor, which is a very legitimate (and clever) decission btw. It's not that I didn't ask for help. I did, several times. But people was not willing to help the guy that was leading in provinces, everybody would preffer to wait to see him "peeled off" a bit. The problem is, once an empire crumbles, it does so very fast. As a rule of thumb, it's probably too late for help when all the castles are being sieged

I am happy you had fun with this game. Makes my decisions easier :-)


The nation of Man takes all that has been said here as an unconditional surrender of the ermorian empire and regards that empire as not existing anymore. Man troops will start seizing ermorian provinces on the central island immediately. Of those provinces we claim the three provinces between the Glimmering Fields and the Midge Fens as well as those two provinces as part of our realm. All other provinces may be subject to negotiations, if other nations do wish so.
We want to emphasize to T'ien Chi that this is only valid for ermorian provinces on the island. We have no interest in provinces east of the southern river.

I haven't surrendered. I just recognize that, with all my castles being sieged, there's nothign I can do. Which is pretty obvious. I can, and will, however, play. I still have several mages in my castles, that can also do some nasty tricks. Tien Chi and Jotun HAVE to take them out, and I'm not going to go AI. They'll have to kill me, and they will suffer cassualties in the process. Maybe, if they fumble the ball, I can wipe one of the armies, who know.

What I can't do, is recruit. So the only thing I can do with my money, is raise PD. Just want everybody to know... :)


I have seen their god, and I wouldn't call him a SC
It is. Frost aura 21-29, reinvigoration, quickness, firebrand, Vineshield, Fear +5, Awe, Prot around 18-26+ (Depending weather, has strong cold power), Def around 30, luck, Regeneration, high HP (110-170, depending Dominion), that is a SC. Sure, he is relatively weak in one aspect (Magic Resist), and paralize would had take him out. But that was my point: as I had to research to paralyze, and doing such, my research was pointless against Tien Chi, who needed battlefield evocations and troop-enhancing spells like Body Ethereal. I couldn't face both threats easily.

[Immaculate]

I briefly tried the double-blessed vestals last night and i was able to field a functional expansion party every single turn. It was actually really fun.

When you are done please post your pretender design and scales okay? (or do it in your play guide you were referring to)

[Olm]

I have never seen an explicit ask for help, perhaps didn't look carefully enough. Even being far away I could have probably done something, at least against T'ien Chi.

I don't recall the son of Niefel exactly, but I know that I felt the urge to cloud trapeze some mages in and blast him away with lightning bolts. That was when I figured I hadn't researched cloud trapeze yet.
He really needs some resistances.
But then SC status depends somewhat on the opposition he faces. So probably you are right, he was a SC under the circumstances.

[triqui]

I have never seen an explicit ask for help, perhaps didn't look carefully enough. Even being far away I could have probably done something, at least against T'ien Chi.

I don't recall the son of Niefel exactly, but I know that I felt the urge to cloud trapeze some mages in and blast him away with lightning bolts. That was when I figured I hadn't researched cloud trapeze yet.
He really needs some resistances.
But then SC status depends somewhat on the opposition he faces. So probably you are right, he was a SC under the circumstances.

You need resistances depending what are you facing. If you attack Abyssia, Cold Resist is not really that helpful. He is facing Ermor, which has no access to Air-Spamming mages, so he does not really need 100% lightning resist :P

He has 100% cold resistance and 50% fire resistance, which makes him inmune or heavily resistant against fire-brands and frost-brands, and he can kill like six zillions of regular troops and thugs. Chill aura 29 means he almost instantly freeze any regular troops attacking him, and he has encumbrance 2 with reinvigoration 4, which means he can safelly use quickness, to clean 2 full squares of skelly spam per turn. With Defense 30, awe, fear 5, luck and a vineyard shield, he is not easy to take down with other heavy hitters either.

He was smart and moved away from my capitol, so my map1 move grand thaumaturges couldn't chase him easily either. Sure, there are ways to kill him (there are ways to kill every single SC in the game, nothing in this game is bulletproof), but he is not easy to take down. Specially, earlier in the game, when the research wasn't that deep.

[Olm]

I have never seen an explicit ask for help, perhaps didn't look carefully enough. Even being far away I could have probably done something, at least against T'ien Chi.

I don't recall the son of Niefel exactly, but I know that I felt the urge to cloud trapeze some mages in and blast him away with lightning bolts. That was when I figured I hadn't researched cloud trapeze yet.
He really needs some resistances.
But then SC status depends somewhat on the opposition he faces. So probably you are right, he was a SC under the circumstances.

You need resistances depending what are you facing. If you attack Abyssia, Cold Resist is not really that helpful. He is facing Ermor, which has no access to Air-Spamming mages, so he does not really need 100% lightning resist :P

He has 100% cold resistance and 50% fire resistance, which makes him inmune or heavily resistant against fire-brands and frost-brands, and he can kill like six zillions of regular troops and thugs. Chill aura 29 means he almost instantly freeze any regular troops attacking him, and he has encumbrance 2 with reinvigoration 4, which means he can safelly use quickness, to clean 2 full squares of skelly spam per turn. With Defense 30, awe, fear 5, luck and a vineyard shield, he is not easy to take down with other heavy hitters either.

He was smart and moved away from my capitol, so my map1 move grand thaumaturges couldn't chase him easily either. Sure, there are ways to kill him (there are ways to kill every single SC in the game, nothing in this game is bulletproof), but he is not easy to take down. Specially, earlier in the game, when the research wasn't that deep.

I looked at the battle again, and yes, fear, awe luck and the vineshield mean he is not hit often. The chill however seems not to be so effective.
And your undeads ignore fear and awe.
But you are right, throw in a Ring of tamed Lightning, and I wouldn't like to meet the guy (though i have ideas for the case).

[triqui]

I looked at the battle again, and yes, fear, awe luck and the vineshield mean he is not hit often. The chill however seems not to be so effective.
And your undeads ignore fear and awe.
But you are right, throw in a Ring of tamed Lightning, and I wouldn't like to meet the guy (though i have ideas for the case).

If you mean this battle (this last turn), sure, it wasn't effective, becouse he was killing everything fast, and thus the chill was not stacking.

However, when he get surrounded, it *does* work greatly.

All undeads are not inmune to cold and awe. To be specific, *Vestals* arent :(. Sure, skeletons can go through awe and cold. But they have like no chances to kill a guy with Def 30 and luck (that's an average of TWENTY attacks needed to give his def to 10, which is the skellies attack level), specially if he has prot 18-26 (skellies arent extremelly strong), kills 6 skellies per turn, and have 117-180 hp -depending on dominion- and regenerates.

To kill him, I need mages. I can kill him 100% sure, have done the testing in single player agains exactly that configuration (will tell how, later. I still can resist like El Alamo :P), given the chance to fight with my grand taumaturges. But he is smart, he has no need to bring him to my capitol (or near around it).

[SpaceViking21]

I have backup gear for him for specific resistances, don't you worry. The big things I need for him right now are a starshine skullcap (general MR) and Rainbow Armor. I just haven't had a chance to bring him to a lab until recently, and I wanted to get stuff locked down first.

[shatner]

Not all the provinces of Ermor are going to Jotunheim, including those on the island. T'ien Ch'i has bled as much as anyone in this conflict (more since most of Ermor's troops don't bleed) and it is from that blood that our claim is writ. We have iron-clad contracts with Jotunheim which spell out what spoils will be ours. The chaos of war does not always allow for a clean division of an enemy nation while that enemy is fighting back; Jotunheim is merely securing those provinces for us while our forces are otherwise engaged. And while a contract in Dominions 3 is only so many words, we have secured considerable collateral from our large allies to ensure their fidelity to the agreement. The masters of T'ien Ch'i are no fools.

Rest assured you western powers that Jotunheim will not be getting any more territory than what T'ien Ch'i has agreed to and that giants go splat under meteors just as well as skeletons... even really big SC god-giants.

However, let us come forward and try to quell this hawkish rhetoric. Ermor was a worthy foe and they continue to fight as such. This war has been glorious but now it is drawing to a close. T'ien Ch'i has no desire to celebrate the end of one war with the start of another. Once Ermor has been put to the final death, we plan to live peacefully with those who would have peace. Already we are ramping up our powers of construction and once they reach fruition we would gladly trade the products of our forges with others. We are skilled in all magics save for blood and so we can produce a great many wonders.

The east has known war for many, many turns now. T'ien Ch'i and, I'm sure, Jotunheim are only seeking to a return to peace. A year ago the looming specter of Ermor was seen from every corner of the world. Had Jotunheim and T'ien Ch'i not intervened, had we not fought with all the strength and guile we could muster, then Man would have lost sons to more than just Marignon, and Ulm to Marchaka. Had we not intervened, there would be no talks about who gets what pieces of the island, as the island would be the provenance of the dead that walk. We fought the war that all the living would have been forced to fight sooner or later. For this we don't ask for gratitude, nor praise nor tribute... only peace. I'm sure the kind mothers, sweet daughters and wise crones of Avalon can see the value in our words.

- T'ien Ch'i

[Olm]

Wise and charming words by the rulers of the T'ien Ch'i empire.
Perhaps we should discuss province distribution on the island between the involved four nations.
The nation of Man would much rather accept T'ien Ch'i as its neighbor, than Jotunheim, so perhaps we could come to a conclusion.


Why is it I always end up discussing peace with very reasonable neighbors, when this is a wargame that should essentially lead to last-man-standing-games? I mean, two gods sharing power is reasonable, but if we all agree on being satisfied with one fifth, one sixth or one seventh of the world, why should we start wars in the first place.

[triqui]

I have backup gear for him for specific resistances, don't you worry. The big things I need for him right now are a starshine skullcap (general MR) and Rainbow Armor. I just haven't had a chance to bring him to a lab until recently, and I wanted to get stuff locked down first.

Which is what I mean. There was really no need to have LR against me, I have 1/4 random picks of Air 1...

To face me, he was perfectly decked out.

He was probably too naked when he started the fight, I had a good chance to kill him early. He lacked Reinvigoration, and had too much encumbrance due to Quickness. But you wisely went back to a lab and geared properly.

Gear in SC has to take in account the stage of the game. Early, a pendant of luck is often enough for most SC chasis (like yours) to crush everyone. You don't really need high MR in the first year, nobody has Soul Slay researched yet. Harald was (is) a damn good SC, and was more than capable to hold against Vestals and Principes, which was exactly what he was expected to.

[Olm]

As Ermor and Ulm are heavily communicating atm I just want to bring to their attention that their turns are the only ones missing.
Just in case they did overlook.

[triqui]

I thought I sent it already... Must be some problem with the email, i'll resend it soon

[triqui]

I just resent my turn, but got no confirmation. I wonder if Llamaserver has some headache

EDIT: Got answer. It took a few minutes but it's ok. I wonder what happened with the turn the first time, though. Sent it this morning :/

[triqui]

and there we go, the doors of Ermor have been breached, I guess we have a nice AAR next turn :P

[Olm]

Now is there anybody willing to talk about province distribution on the island?
We took the Glimmering Fields from Marignon and the Midge Fens from independents. Those are against all doubt our property and both are important to us, so we will not debate about them.
Thats two of 18 for us for now.
We cannot see the northern provinces yet, but is it correct, that Ulm has 7 provinces?
that means 9 provinces left, of those Jotunheim holds 3 (one siege) Ermor still 4, We hold one other province and one is independent.
We guess Jotunheim would like to keep theirs, so 6 are left. Ulm clearly has enough on the island, so those six should be divided between T'ien Ch'i, Jotunheim and Us.
Our proposal would be that Spire Woods, our province of Druid Land, Winter Peaks and Kseftia go to T'ien Chi. We take the independant province of Doven. And Jotunheim and T'ien Ch'i agree on Binophe.
We don't really like that, because we would have been able to conquer more of the island, but we would accept if this means peace.

[SpaceViking21]

As part of the division deal between myself and Tien, He's getting all of the access to island provinces. I will not have a presence once the war has concluded and Tien can claim them.

[SpaceViking21]

Back in town, and with any luck next week is the last week of this job. I'll keep you guys posted.

[SpaceViking21]

...

Well I guess all this discussion about how much of a badass Harald is is kinda moot now. Also, do the ghosts killed during nightmares count for things killed? Because that's kinda silly.


Stupid auto-rout...

[shatner]

Ah, vengeance of the dead (http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Vengeance_of_the_Dead). To quote the wiki:

This spell can be controversial because every time the target commander survives a Vengeance of the Dead, the number of souls that returns on a subsequent casting increases until the commander simply cannot kill all of the units before the 75 turn limit. After 75 turns, the commander automatically dies, making the spell a guaranteed kill if cast enough times over enough turns.

[triqui]

Yes, the ghost killed in dreams count for the spell as well. I find it kinda silly too, but that's how it works. We had a long thread about it a couple of years ago I think, and it was not a bug, it was the way it worked.

Harald was an awesome foe, but as I said, a little bit low in MR. He is strong, but vulnerable to Mind hunt+Soul Slay or Vengeance of the dead, specially when casted by a high level astral mage with penetration effects (as Beleren). However, there's no way to build a SC that is completelly undefeatable, all of them have some weakness, even if it's small. Otherwise the game would be a rush to find a SC, and nothing else would matter.

My original plan was killing him with Stellar Cascades spam. In my tests in Single Player against that exact SC, it worked 100% of the times. However, he moved away from my capitol, and Grand Thaumaturgs have map move 1 :(

[triqui]

Wow.
The sphinx can't teleport? Is this a CBM change? :(
There goes my plan to instantly kill tien chi gift of heaven army of doom :(

[triqui]

Wow.
The sphinx can't teleport? Is this a CBM change? :(
There goes my plan to instantly kill tien chi gift of heaven army of doom :(

[Olm]

Wow.
The sphinx can't teleport? Is this a CBM change? :(


No:

http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Sphinx

[triqui]

Big building mistake then :/ Should had been an oracle or something.

What a mess :/

[Olm]

So the Ermorian Empire has shown, that it still has teeth.
This opens up better options for Us, than watching Ermor been eaten without being invited to the party.

As of now the nation of Man will support Ermor in its struggle for survival.
This means We hereby declare war on Jotunheim and T'ien Ch'i.
Since T'ien Ch'i has been a rather good neighbor We will wait one month with open hostilities. After that period Our troops will march to the relieve of Ermor.

[shatner]

Unless you wish to be named a pact-breaker, you will observe our NAP-3 and refrain from invading for a full three months. Is your imperialistic fervor really so strong that all other concerns, such as past agreements, are forgotten? That is a pity; we had mistaken Man for an honorable and civilized nation but are now shown the folly of our trusting ways.

Furthermore, there is something perverse about nearly going to war several times over not getting to conquer enough of Ermor (despite showing up awfully late to the party, I might add) and then suddenly declaring yourself the grand protector of Ermor and riding out to their defense.

If you are going to war on two nations who have treated with you peaceably and done you the service of striking down your greatest rival, at least have the dignity to declare it as such. We, the masters of T'ien Ch'i, find your justifications flimsy and your rhetoric both craven and self-serving.


Man has long shown themselves to be an impatient and hostile people but it was our hope that that was merely the subsiding bloodlust from their slaughter of Marignon. We see now that they are a nation ruled by naked ambition. We entreat all other nations to join Jotunheim and T'ien Ch'i in crushing this literally unholy alliance of the damned of Ermor and the unworthy of Man.

[SpaceViking21]

So the nation of Man finds peace so intolerable that they now ally themselves with the corpse they had already planned to scavenge? This greatly amuses us.

[shatner]

To the nations who are not currently the target of Man's ambition, make no mistake that Man will come for you the moment it is expedient for them. For several seasons Man has spent words entreating us to war on their enemies and turn on our allies. And in turn we have sent diplomatic messages by the score urging tit-for-tat for peace and patience. And through all of our dealings, MAN WAS AGREEING TO PEACE, THAT THEY WOULD CURB THEIR AMBITION AND ACCEPT T'IEN CH'I AS THEIR NEIGHBORS. In other words, for the last couple of turns they were offering us peace and suddenly this turn they call for our extermination.

...Let that sink in for a moment...

At best it means that Man is so fickle that their decisions mean nothing as they will change on a whim. At worst it means all diplomatic messages from Man are only so much noise sent to distract and mislead so the recipient is less prepared when Man inevitably betrays them.

Ermor's motive in all of this is both clear and reasonable. They were the premier power that has been brought low and now lives only to spite their successors. Ermor allies with Man not because Man is honorable and worthy of alliance, but for precisely the opposite reasons. Ermor knows it will not conquer or thrive ever again so it allies with a vile and unworthy force such as Man for the sheer expediency of punishing T'ien Ch'i and Jotunheim. For this, we do not blame Ermor; nihilism and spite are the only friends left to the mighty once they have fallen.

However, this... inexcusable and laughable farce of a casus belli that Man has invoked shows that Man does not listen to diplomacy. This is the moment when Man makes its nature and ambitions known. If you are a neighbor to Man, they will come to conquer you. If you are a neighbor to Man's neighbor, they will come to conquer you. Ulm will face an invasion by Man, Pythium will face an invasion by Man; it is only a matter of time. The only way to stop this is for everyone to resist Man and Ermor in whatever means are available to them.

If Ulm fails to rally to this cause, then they are condemning themselves to subjugation. Are the proud lords of steel really so short sighted, or are they merely afraid? If Pythium fails to rally to this cause, then they too shall follow Ulm into oblivion; their hydras slain and their theurges used for archery practice.

Those who will not go meekly to their graves, please PM the masters of T'ien Ch'i. United, we will be divvying up Man just as Man was divvying up Ermor not one turn ago.

[Olm]

Unless you wish to be named a pact-breaker, you will observe our NAP-3 and refrain from invading for a full three months. Is your imperialistic fervor really so strong that all other concerns, such as past agreements, are forgotten? That is a pity; we had mistaken Man for an honorable and civilized nation but are now shown the folly of our trusting ways.


We do not remember such a formal agreement. Could you give us prove for its existence We would surely hold to it.
(I mean this. We did some diplomatic talking ingame, but I can't remember such a pact, and cannot look it up. Perhaps you could load an old turn, and make a screenshot.)


Furthermore, there is something perverse about nearly going to war several times over not getting to conquer enough of Ermor (despite showing up awfully late to the party, I might add) and then suddenly declaring yourself the grand protector of Ermor and riding out to their defense.


We agree, but helping Ermor was always Our first choice. We should have done so long ago. Better late than never.



If you are going to war on two nations who have treated with you peaceably and done you the service of striking down your greatest rival, at least have the dignity to declare it as such. We, the masters of T'ien Ch'i, find your justifications flimsy and your rhetoric both craven and self-serving.



At least We have the decency to declare formal war. An honor Ermor never received from both of you.

[SpaceViking21]

At least We have the decency to declare formal war. An honor Ermor never received from both of you.



Do not pretend to understand the nature of Jotun diplomacy. We sent a formal declaration of war to Ermor. We tied it to a javelin and hurled it at their vestals during the 18th month. We cannot speak for Tien for obvious reasons, but given their fair and forthright dealings we are sure they acted with as much honor as Ermor was due.

[Olm]

To the nations who are not currently the target of Man's ambition, make no mistake that Man will come for you the moment it is expedient for them. For several seasons Man has spent words entreating us to war on their enemies and turn on our allies.


Thats a plain lie.


And in turn we have sent diplomatic messages by the score urging tit-for-tat for peace and patience. And through all of our dealings, MAN WAS AGREEING TO PEACE, THAT THEY WOULD CURB THEIR AMBITION AND ACCEPT T'IEN CH'I AS THEIR NEIGHBORS. In other words, for the last couple of turns they were offering us peace and suddenly this turn they call for our extermination.


We offered a solution on the island, which even included giving away a province that currently belongs to us. The giants told us, they had other ideas. But nobody further discussed that with us, nor was any agreement reached with us.
All Jotunheim and T'ien Ch'i told Us was we are not ALLOWED to take provinces because they fought a war in the east. We could have taken the south of the island from Ermor a year ago, without anybody able to stop us. And now they FORBID it. And even Our generous offer is just put aside as if a child squibbles while the grown ups decide. Thats not the way the nation of Man expects to be treated.

And nobody calls for extermination. As soon as Ermor is save we may discuss the further proceedings.


...Let that sink in for a moment...

At best it means that Man is so fickle that their decisions mean nothing as they will change on a whim. At worst it means all diplomatic messages from Man are only so much noise sent to distract and mislead so the recipient is less prepared when Man inevitably betrays them.


It means We made a mistake by believing Ermor when it told it was dead.
We then tried to make the best of that situation, but We definitely like the solution with a living (more or less) Ermor better.


Ermor's motive in all of this is both clear and reasonable. They were the premier power that has been brought low and now lives only to spite their successors. Ermor allies with Man not because Man is honorable and worthy of alliance, but for precisely the opposite reasons. Ermor knows it will not conquer or thrive ever again so it allies with a vile and unworthy force such as Man for the sheer expediency of punishing T'ien Ch'i and Jotunheim. For this, we do not blame Ermor; nihilism and spite are the only friends left to the mighty once they have fallen.

However, this... inexcusable and laughable farce of a casus belli that Man has invoked shows that Man does not listen to diplomacy. This is the moment when Man makes its nature and ambitions known. If you are a neighbor to Man, they will come to conquer you. If you are a neighbor to Man's neighbor, they will come to conquer you. Ulm will face an invasion by Man, Pythium will face an invasion by Man; it is only a matter of time. The only way to stop this is for everyone to resist Man and Ermor in whatever means are available to them.

If Ulm fails to rally to this cause, then they are condemning themselves to subjugation. Are the proud lords of steel really so short sighted, or are they merely afraid? If Pythium fails to rally to this cause, then they too shall follow Ulm into oblivion; their hydras slain and their theurges used for archery practice.


We guess the masters of Ulm and Pythium can think for themselves and don't need your aid in it. Don't you think everyone is as easily manipulated as your somewhat oversized friends.

[SpaceViking21]

Ultimately, for all your posturing and speeches, this whole diplomatic issue boils down to one thing. Ermor was attacked for being the tallest tree in the forest. With your victory over Marignon, and declaration of war against two war-weary nations, you will be in a position to rapidly conquer Tien, then finish cutting the throat of Ermor as you push into Jotunheim. If left completely unchecked by Pythium and Ulm, you will have the capitals necessary for total victory. Unless Ulm and Pythium plan to bend their knee to you now, standing completely idle will not be an option.

[Olm]

Ultimately, for all your posturing and speeches, this whole diplomatic issue boils down to one thing. Ermor was attacked for being the tallest tree in the forest. With your victory over Marignon, and declaration of war against two war-weary nations, you will be in a position to rapidly conquer Tien, then finish cutting the throat of Ermor as you push into Jotunheim. If left completely unchecked by Pythium and Ulm, you will have the capitals necessary for total victory. Unless Ulm and Pythium plan to bend their knee to you now, standing completely idle will not be an option.

There is another option than bending the knee.
As We mentioned before: sharing power in two or perhaps even three is viable.

[shatner]

We could have taken the south of the island from Ermor a year ago, without anybody able to stop us. And now they FORBID it.

A year ago you, along with anyone else, were invited by T'ien Ch'i and Jotunheim to wage war on Ermor and take what spoils you could pry from their cold, undead hand. But you didn't so much as lift a finger even though you could do so "without anybody able to stop us". But after the skeleton of Ermor was lying broken and twitching, THEN you show up demanding a slice and seem confused that those of us with actual scars from the battle didn't fall over ourselves to oblige you. Your actions weren't at fault so much as your timing.

And nobody calls for extermination. As soon as Ermor is save we may discuss the further proceedings. So... what? If we drop our sieges around Ermor's forts than you'll whistle a merry tune and walk away? Since Ermor is buried in the very bottom-right of the map, in-between the holdings of Jotunheim and T'ien Ch'i, I'm unsure how exactly your liberation of Ermor is supposed to go without necessitating the wholesale slaughter of giants and humans alike. And even if we do walk away from Ermor's castles... what exactly is Ermor supposed to do other than immediately wage war on Jotunheim and T'ien Ch'i. We find your terms confusing; would you care to elaborate?

[shatner]

Unless you wish to be named a pact-breaker, you will observe our NAP-3 and refrain from invading for a full three months. Is your imperialistic fervor really so strong that all other concerns, such as past agreements, are forgotten? That is a pity; we had mistaken Man for an honorable and civilized nation but are now shown the folly of our trusting ways.


We do not remember such a formal agreement. Could you give us prove for its existence We would surely hold to it.
(I mean this. We did some diplomatic talking ingame, but I can't remember such a pact, and cannot look it up. Perhaps you could load an old turn, and make a screenshot.)

Attached is the screenshot of a message sent by your envoy at the start of the second year (turn 24). If you check your records from the following month, you will find our acceptance of your NAP, your friendship and your support for T'ien Ch'i and Jotunheim's war against Ermor.

Reconciling the contents of that message with your recent declarations is... difficult.

[Olm]

There will be no hostilities from Man towards T'ien Ch'i before month 36. We declare that the non aggression treaty ends by that month.

[triqui]

Interesting diplomatic talk.
We, the people of Ermor, want to say only one thing:

The capitol of Ermor is once again free. 60 worthy Tien Chi soldiers, and 6 of their commanders died in the process, as well as a single heroic ermorian soldier and 20 undead body remnants.

We hereby declare this, as the Independence Day. Long live to the Broken Empire.

[SpaceViking21]

Alright, job's done and we can go back to a shorter hosting schedule now. Thanks to all of you for your patience with this situation.

[Morla]

OK, i am going to set the game to host in 48 hours.

[Morla]

Sorry for my late turn, crazy week.

[Morla]

The people of Ulm, as the paragon of balance ,wants to announce that further grow in power from the nation of man at the expence of T'ien Ch'i it´s a threat to us all.

If the nation of Man only wants to help the return of Ermor the nation of Ulm will not interfere, but if the real intentions from Man is to conquer T'ien Ch'i Ulm will cancel the NAP that bound our nations.

[Olm]

The people of Ulm, as the paragon of balance ,wants to announce that further grow in power from the nation of man at the expence of T'ien Ch'i it´s a threat to us all.

If the nation of Man only wants to help the return of Ermor the nation of Ulm will not interfere, but if the real intentions from Man is to conquer T'ien Ch'i Ulm will cancel the NAP that bound our nations.

We greet our friends from Ulm.
And we do respect their wishes and concerns.
So the nation of Man declares the southern river as its eastern border in the south. Man will not claim ownership to any province currently in possession of T'ien Ch'i. Those agreements shall hold until otherwise agreed upon with the nation of Ulm.
However we are at war with T'ien Ch'i, and we will seize their provinces if possible. But we will leave these provinces the latest after the war is over. If it is possible for Ermor to take them, earlier.
Should the people of Ulm feel our agreements violated in the future, we ask them to communicate with us, before taking rash actions. We think everything can be settled.
Furthermore the nation of Man wishes to express that it's goal of this war is not primarily to destroy T'ien Ch'i. However our allies may have a different view to this topic.

All these agreements do not concern Jotun provinces, nor does Man restrict itself on the central island further than past agreements between Ulm and Man dictate.

[SpaceViking21]

We're probably going to need a timer pause/extension for the thanksgiving holidays.

[Immaculate]

yes please- starting wednesday night and returning monday morning.

[Morla]

OK, i´ll extend the timer for thanksgiving. I´ll report it in here when it´s done.

[Morla]

Done

[Olm]

Morla, your file is the last missing. Perhaps we can do another turn before weekend?

[Morla]

On my way.

[Olm]

Perfect.
Things are heating up a bit, even if Jotunheim does try to keep it cold.
It didn't help him :-)
Great battle in Ministra with a great result for Man.

[shatner]

So, the diplomatic stances of the world have gotten a little confusing to those of us in T'ien Ch'i. As such we will simply throw this out there and let it have whatever impact it will make.

We are under attack. Last month we suffered unrest by bards; not an out-in-out attack but certainly annoying. However, this month we suffered assault in three of our eight provinces. Two were thugs slaughtering the local PD and the third was a full invasion force which is now besieging our castle at the Laerian Swamps (30).

Between the unrest and the lost provinces, we now have so little income that some of our forces are beginning to desert. This is all an expression of Man's ambition; we have long since made peace with Ermor and have never once attacked Man through force of arms, subterfuge or magic. Man has no justification for this war except to expand their already bloated empire. We will resist these aggressors to the bitter end but our time was waned.

We only hope the world learns from our demise and puts Man's empire to the torch.

[Olm]

We have long since made peace with Ermor.

Could Ermor please comment on this?
As to our last knowing Ermor and T'ien Ch'i are at war.
If that is no longer the case, it should have been made public.

[triqui]

Tien Chi and Ermor signed a truce, where Tien Chi retreated to their own borders, leting us to conquer the lands that were us. Tien Chi offered us to do so, so we could focus our war efforts against Jotunheim alone. The only other option we had was Tien Chi threat to do nothing but pillaging our lands, raising the taxes, and creating PD in our provinces, and not defending against Man.

We, the people of Ermor, found that it was of our best interest to sign that truce, given the options, becouse we wouldn't be able to fight against two oponents at the same time in our state.

As Tien Chi was pretty clear that only there were two options: one of them was very hurtful for us (pillaging our lands), and the other one was actually functional for our alliance with Man (with Ermor being able to attack Jotunheim), we found it to be the best course of action.

This change absolutelly nothing the terms of the alliance we made with Man, though. We offered our help against the rise of Jotunheim, in exchange for Man destruction of our long term enemies. That's what we signed, and that's what's happening. Your later offer, in this thread, to give us the lands of Tienchi once they are conquered was unexpected, and raised greatly our respect for our allies. We understand you did that becouse of Ulm's political preasure. We'll be willing to take those provinces, if that helps to placate Ulm vigilance on your global dominance, or not doing so, if it's not needed. It was not in the terms of our initial agreement, and thus, you are not bounded to fulfil that requirement (not bounded to us, at the very least. Whatever are your diplomatic treaties with Ulm are not of our matter, but we'll help you with it if conquering Tien Chi becomes a worry for Ulm)

[Olm]

So, the diplomatic stances of the world have gotten a little confusing to those of us in T'ien Ch'i. As such we will simply throw this out there and let it have whatever impact it will make.

We are under attack. Last month we suffered unrest by bards; not an out-in-out attack but certainly annoying. However, this month we suffered assault in three of our eight provinces. Two were thugs slaughtering the local PD and the third was a full invasion force which is now besieging our castle at the Laerian Swamps (30).

Between the unrest and the lost provinces, we now have so little income that some of our forces are beginning to desert. This is all an expression of Man's ambition; we have long since made peace with Ermor and have never once attacked Man through force of arms, subterfuge or magic. Man has no justification for this war except to expand their already bloated empire. We will resist these aggressors to the bitter end but our time was waned.

We only hope the world learns from our demise and puts Man's empire to the torch.

Lets sketch Our view of events:
We ended the NAP with TC.
We waited one turn longer than was necessary, so in the first turn after the NAP we only gathered troops at the border.
We let Our Bards loose the second turn after the NAP.
The third turn Our troops attacked three provinces.

Somewhen during those steps of escalation, T'ien Ch'i and Ermor agreed on a cease fire. T'ien Ch'i didn't tell Us.
So one can ask why? Did he just forget to relay this information, that could have prevented Our attack?
We don't think so.
We think the masters of T'ien Ch'i "forgot" it on purpose. They sacrificed their own provinces for one goal: manipulating others, especially Ulm, into a war against Man.
Now its Ulm's choice if they let their mighty nation be manipulated into a war against an old friend by the scheming manipulators of tiny T'ien Ch'i.
The nation of Man will stand to its words. We will fight this war against T'ien Ch'i and all provinces We take will go to Ermor.

[SpaceViking21]

Perfect.
Things are heating up a bit, even if Jotunheim does try to keep it cold.
It didn't help him :-)
Great battle in Ministra with a great result for Man.

Good fight, though I apparently need more work on my scripting. No idea why my entire sabbath decided that Desiccation was a better spell to cast than pretty much anything else.

[shatner]

Lets sketch Our view of events:
We ended the NAP with TC.
We waited one turn longer than was necessary, so in the first turn after the NAP we only gathered troops at the border.
We let Our Bards loose the second turn after the NAP.
The third turn Our troops attacked three provinces.

Somewhen during those steps of escalation, T'ien Ch'i and Ermor agreed on a cease fire. T'ien Ch'i didn't tell Us.
So one can ask why? Did he just forget to relay this information, that could have prevented Our attack?
We don't think so.
We think the masters of T'ien Ch'i "forgot" it on purpose. They sacrificed their own provinces for one goal: manipulating others, especially Ulm, into a war against Man.
Now its Ulm's choice if they let their mighty nation be manipulated into a war against an old friend by the scheming manipulators of tiny T'ien Ch'i.
The nation of Man will stand to its words. We will fight this war against T'ien Ch'i and all provinces We take will go to Ermor.

As usual Man's interpretation of events is wrong and self-serving. We kept quiet about our deal because Ermor asked us to keep a lid on it. If anyone is attempting to pull diplomatic shenanigans it's Ermor. We only piped up about it when Man seemed to tell the world that they'd leave us alone to keep Ulm from entering the fray, and then attacked us. Once it became clear that our days were numbered, keeping our silence about our peace with Ermor seemed less important.

We have only ever spoken well of Ermor; they have been a worthy opponent and their dealings with Man make sense as they were driven to the brink by two committed foes. We have only spoken poorly of Man and Man has yet to do a single thing to disprove our characterization of them.

The actual exchange between me and Ermor is included below:


Quote:
Originally Posted by triqui
Quote:
Originally Posted by shatner
So... it's been quite the war we've had. Lots of back and forth.

Well, we're done. Congratulations. Man is massing on our borders and will be marching on us as soon as diplomacy will allow. While we sought your destruction with our every act these many turns, you have been an honorable foe and we hold no ill will towards you. Man, however, is a vile opportunist and we hold them in contempt. If we must fight a losing battle, if we must be trampled into the dust, we would rather our last act of defiance be to hobble Man as much as we can, for as long as we can.

We offer you this deal: we will withdraw from your lands and fall back to within our old borders (10, 22, 27 and the lands west of there). During this fall back, you are not to attack 17 or 16 (though 11 and 15 are fair game). We will sign an immediate NAP-6 with you. Our nations can then leave one another to their respective fates. We hope that, in time, Man finds a pair of skeletal hands choking him to death. It would be poetic, at least.

If you reject our offer than we will instead spend what few resources we have left pillaging your lands and waging war on you while offering Man no resistance to his aggression.

In a few months time, it is likely we'll have nothing left to us but our besieged forts and our spite; we're sure you understand the sentiment. We will have our revenge, however petty, against someone.

Will it be against you or against Man? You decide. We await your response.

- T'ien Ch'i
I'm OK with the deal, but:
the problem is I need Man's preassure on Jotunheim as well. So anything we deal, must be kept secret (ie: no reference in the AAR thread)

I'll take a revision of my turn now, to see if 17 and 16 are free of attacks.
Agreed, we'll keep quiet about this; though in the interests of full disclosure we have informed our ally, Jotunheim, of our intention to retreat from you, bunker down and try to give Man hell.

[Morla]

Interesting diplomatic talk.

The nation of Ulm, declares the NAP-3 between Man-Ulm finished.

The intentions from man aren´t clear, and it seems Man is going for the win.

Man you have 3 months to stop your invasion of T'ien Ch'i, and let that T'ien Ch'i and Ermor fix their own situation. If not YOU and I will be enemies.

[triqui]

The part of "no reference of this in the AAR" seems not to be binding for you...

I do not regret any of my acts. I want to see both Tien Chi and Jotunheim reanimated as ermorian legionaries. That is of no secret, i said so several times. I signed the NAP becouse I thought it was the best course of actions to see that goal fullfilled.

[shatner]

The part of "no reference of this in the AAR" seems not to be binding for you...

I do not regret any of my acts. I want to see both Tien Chi and Jotunheim reanimated as ermorian legionaries. That is of no secret, i said so several times. I signed the NAP becouse I thought it was the best course of actions to see that goal fullfilled.

T'ien Ch'i is not accusing Ermor of any malfeasance. Their various dealings with T'ien Ch'i and Man and so on have all made sense, have all been consistent given their position. For that matter, Man's aggressive behavior has all been copacetic with their position as leader of the pack, we just can't conscious their flimsy, flimsy justifications for their aggression.

Man jumped in "to defend Ermor" because they were big and their opponents were occupied. The fact that there are paragraphs of of Man rooting for Ermor's destruction (back when Ermor was big and Man was not) makes Man's continually restated casus belli so much hypocracy and hot air.

We of T'ien Ch'i have never condemned Ermor for their actions. Heck, we don't even condemn Man for their actions, we just can't stomach the rhetoric being used to justify it. Man, if you are going to invade Jotunheim and T'ien Ch'i because we are adjacent, pre-occupied and weaker than you, don't dress it up as some humanitarian effort to save the poor, beleaguered skeletons of Ermor.

We of T'ien Ch'i want our end to come openly and if our opponent can't or won't deign to engage in open discourse then we will have no compunctions in airing dirty laundry or condemning them through diplomatic channels. At this point, all we have are words, spite and a trio of forts (one of which is under siege).