Off Topic DO NOT BUY CIV 3

[Atrocities]

THis game is utter complete crap. Just trust me on this. I have been playing it for a month now, and I just unistalled that POS from my computer. The list of things wrong with it is a mile and half long. I am sick and tired of crap from Sid M. and will NEVER buy his trash again.

To hell with Civilization 3. Oh ya, I just trashed the disk, and am going to send it to them in peaces. (Seldom does a game frustrate me to this point, but this one pushed evey button I had.)

[Dracus]

Note to self:
do not buy Civ 3
Spend money on Myth 3 instead.

[ 19 December 2001: Message edited by: Dracus ]</p>

[Shyrka]

Here in Spain Civ 3 is just arriving. Now shops will sell the English Version, and will sell the Spanish Version in March. It's the first time i can remember that a game is sold in 2 Versions. The expectation is enormous, all magazines with Civ 3 and Sid Meier at the cover. But, what are the changes? The gameplay is the same that the 1st Civ.

[Instar]

Well, too late
I have to agree, Civ3 has some frustrating parts, but overall I enjoyed it. Ive been trying to edit the game to make it better (in my eyes that is)
The big thing that pissed me off is how cruise missiles were ground units. (*HUH??)

[Dracus]

I just looked at civ III web site and there is a patch for it, have you all dpwnloaded this patch?

[Puke]

does the patch fix its 'more-of-the-same'ness? the gameing industry has a stick if you have a dead horse.

[Baron Munchausen]

There's a patch already, huh? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif How many patches were there for the original Civ? Five or more, I think? How many patches were there for Master of Orion I and II, and Master of Magic? At least three each -- I think it was more. For that matter, how many patches have there been for SE IV now? Seven? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif This is the 'software business' today. You don't FINISH anything. That's too expensive. You get it to the point where it's good enough not to be embarrassing at first use -- that is, you have 'plausible deniability' that you didn't know it wasn't really finished. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Then you release it and hype it with lots of advertizing. Some games don't even have plausible deniability, of course. (cough)Outpost(cough) Then you gather the bug reports from your paying beta testers and start releasing patches. It works this way in business software, too. At least MS has had the grace to call its public beta phase a beta phase, and treat it that way, for new Versions of Windows since the 32-bit Versions started coming out.

I'd say wait another year and then get the 'latest' Civ III at that point. That's what I intend to do. Same for Master of Orion III, frankly. I wouldn't be dumb enough to believe the hype and buy it as soon as it's released. That's the public beta not the final game.

For that matter, SE IV Gold is finally gonna be what SE IV was supposed to be. It's the nature of the industry. Everyone is in a huge rush and thinks that anyone who takes the time to actually finish a major piece of software will end up publishing an obsolete 'white elephant'. And guess what, everyone rushing along with the same belief makes it true. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif The whole industry is a herd of sheep forcing itself over a cliff. So, to avoid frustration I have resigned myself to always using obsolete software. I'm currently running Windows 98 and will not upgrade to XP until there's a next generation released. By then it won't be too expensive to own hardware that can run it fast, either. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Run the previous generation of software on the current generation of hardware and performance is not an issue. And the worst bugs will already be fixed.

[ 20 December 2001: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]</p>

[DocShane]

Preach it, Brother Munchausen! I am a physician using electronic medical records and electronic medical billing. Don't use the newest fangled software and hardware. Wait on the bugs to be worked out.

Oh, I do use beta medical records software.... but not on real patients. I have been testing and playing with the "beta" for 8 months and soon enough we will be able to go "live" with the "full" Version. It would look pretty embarrassing for a patient to come in to my office and my staff not be able to pull up a chart because "the beta ate it"!

Look at NASA. One of my buddies told me that they use old 386 processors on the shuttle for their reliability. I don't know if that is true but makes sense.

If you wan't the latest, cutting edge stuff; be prepared to put up with some headaches. Remember the turtle and the hare. Steadfast wins the race.

[Puke]

not only do they use 386s, they only upgraded to them in the Last 5 years or so. i remember some obscure news article when they got the approval for it, but i dont remember exactly when it was.

hell, that was a few years ago. maybe they are on something better by now. i would not bank on it though, its more important for them to have twelve redundant systems for everything and have them run with low power requirements than it is for them to have fast processors. i mean, its not like they are computing rocket science http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

(gosh, remember when rocket science was mind-boggling? now its genetics this, molecules that. everything in modern science is so darn tiny! in the good old days people thought BIG!)

[Jourin]

I do agree that CIV III is a disappointment, but I still think it is a good game. Is it better than Civ II, yes. Does it have MAJOR problems, yes. Is it better out of the box than CTP I and II (both truely unfinished games), yes. Is it better then the modded CTP I, NO.

Problems:
1. Can not define historical starting positions for empires so can not play a historical Earth map or create scenarios. User mod fixes this bug.

2. Some of the features do not work. (although the patch did fix the precision bombing bug)

3. Game is VERY unstable and crashes constantly. Patch was supposed to address this problem but did not.

4. Patch:
Pros: Gives user more ability to fix problems with game.
Cons: Majority are just cosmetic fixes like spelling errors, does not fix MAJOR problems. Does fix precision bombing bug, but adds new bugs.
Assessment: If you want to try to mod the game to fix problems, install patch. If you want to play the game with no mods, do not install patch as additional bugs are not worth the precision bombing fix.

5. Pros: Firaxis has committed to fix the game with patches. As long as the company is willing to support the game with patches to fix the problems I am willing to buy the game. I refuse to buy games when the company refuses to support the game with patches. I did not buy CTP II and I will not buy IGIII as the companies refused to support CTP I and IGII but released flawed games, one or two minor patches and that was it. I will not be burned twice.

I was more disappointed with CTP I and II then with CIV3. CTP had great potential but was rushed to the market and totally unplayable out of the box. Activision also refused to support the game. Saving grace was ability to mod game. EXTENSIVE user mods over next two years turned CTP I into a very good game. CTP II was a step backwards and again Activision refused to support the game, so I say stick with CTP I modded. Luckily I did not buy CTP II.

Civ3 is playable out of the box (I think). Unfortunately once you get a good game going, it crashes. I have not been able to get past the middle ages yet. Tech suppost has been no help, as all crash problems are the OS's fault. They also state that only limited help will be available because of the holidays.

If you can wait don't buy CIV3 now, but wait for the patches.

[y.a.newbe]

I bought CTP II one year ago(!) and I couldn't believe how much CIV III lags behind in every aspect. User Interface, fun, movies - you name it!
I wonder if I shall invest(aka waste) another minute an CIV III. I rather play CTP II.

CTPII gives you future technologies, buildings, terains, governments and units packaged with a lot of fun to play them.
CIVIII gives you CIV1 with new graphics, trade system and diplomacy(not that it improves anything) with the same old (10 years?) interface! You want to know your 5 best cities for production? Scroll the list and find them yourself! You want to insert an item into the production queue of those 5 in one easy step? Forget it!
Have you ever played SE-IV? Imagine all(yes all) those listings of planets, ships, fleets ... but you can't sort them. Production queues without pictures just to make sure you paid attention. Hell dunno why I didn't uninstall CIVIII right away!

Safe money and buy SEIV GOLD!

[Growltigga]

I dunno - it is Christmas, the season of good will, joy to all men etc

Even CivIII designers need love and hugs at this time of year just like everyone else.

Be kind, the easiest way to show your preferences is simply not to buy CivIII but pick up SE Gold (or tupperware as I want to call it)

Me? I have an expensive wife to maintain so can't afford her, SE gold and Civ III so one has to go (Civ III)

[dogscoff]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
(gosh, remember when rocket science was mind-boggling? now its genetics this, molecules that. everything in modern science is so darn tiny! in the good old days people thought BIG!)
<hr></blockquote>

A quote from "The Young Ones"
Peasant 1: "What's new?"
Peasant 2: "Microchip technology."

[Growltigga]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by dogscoff:


A quote from "The Young Ones"
Peasant 1: "What's new?"
Peasant 2: "Microchip technology."<hr></blockquote>

Dogscoff mate, you are showing your age if you can remember that

[zen.]

Dracus: I just finished reading my latest PC Gamer Last night...Myth 3 got something like 50%. Purchase at your own risk. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Personally, I'm picking up SEIVG and perhaps an FPS like Max Payne or Return to Castle Wolfenstein. Although I suppose I'd better finish Ghost Recon first. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif Simply need something team-like to quench my TFC needs. heh heh

Also, I hear Illwinter's Dominions is also a good turn-based fantasy strategy game. It's produced by three guys, I believe, and their patch list reads frighteningly similar to our own SEIV. Not the best in graphics, but great in scope and execution. Maybe the SEIV for fantasy folks? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

zen

[mac5732]

Was going to buy Civ III but after hearing you guys I think I'll wait. Also, I read in other Forums that a lot of gamers feel EU-2 Is way better then CIV 3, Don't know, getting EU-2 for xmas and wife won't let me touch it until then..

tks for info on Civ III, saved me some money, I'll wait for patches to catch up first. (maybe)

just some ideas mac

[Spyder]

CTP ? EU ? Ok, tell me about 'em.....

[Gryphin]

Delaying Purchase:
I have to agree with the others that wait to purchase a new product. I personaly try to stay a generation behind in Hardware, Software, and Operating Systems.
Professionaly I help people use computers, (Glorigied Tech Support). I even did 3 years doing support for Microsponge, er: Microsoft. (Please don't hate me)
I even continued to play SE III untill this forum gave SE IV a general sign of aproval.

[Dracus]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by zenbudo:
Dracus: I just finished reading my latest PC Gamer Last night...Myth 3 got something like 50%. Purchase at your own risk. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Personally, I'm picking up SEIVG and perhaps an FPS like Max Payne or Return to Castle Wolfenstein. Although I suppose I'd better finish Ghost Recon first. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif Simply need something team-like to quench my TFC needs. heh heh

Also, I hear Illwinter's Dominions is also a good turn-based fantasy strategy game. It's produced by three guys, I believe, and their patch list reads frighteningly similar to our own SEIV. Not the best in graphics, but great in scope and execution. Maybe the SEIV for fantasy folks? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

zen<hr></blockquote>


I have not read the latest PC gamer, but I have played Myth and Myth II and really enjoyed them both. Took me forever to sneak into the castle.
Is PC gamer saying Myth 3 is not as good as the other too?

[Spyder]

I can't find Illwinter's Dominions on a web search...who is publishing it?

[mac5732]

Spyder, check out Europa-Universalis.com or you can check strategyfirst.com. the lst one is always up to date, strategyfirst usually behind. will give you description of EU I & II. I have EUI and like it, II is supposed to be better. Basically in 2 you start in 1419 and go up thru Napoleon. All the various countries at that time period are present. Also campaigns, 100yr war, war of roses, French revolution and many more, play the various scenerios or campaigns or play the Grand Campaign in which you take 1 country and try to conquor the world. There are many things that can affect you, religion (most religions at time in game), diplomacy (marry off your children to form alliances), trade, and of course War, numerous wars going on, your allies can drag you into a war even tho you don't want to, you have a choice but if refuse it affects your nation etc, you can also ask your allies to join in war against someone but then all alliances come into play for both sides. really to much to explain, check the sites and the forums, Like I said I enjoyed EUI and look foreward to EUII, good game

PS. My son wants Battle Realms for Xmas, anyone know anything about it or how good it is? tks

just some ideas mac

[ 20 December 2001: Message edited by: mac5732 ]</p>

[Phoenix-D]

"Dracus: I just finished reading my latest PC Gamer Last night...Myth 3 got something like 50%. Purchase at your own risk."

They also gave give CivIII (which everyone here is bashing) a 92 (? anyway, 90s) score. Their main complaint with MythIII was bugs.

Phoenix-D

[Wardad]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jourin:

EXTENSIVE user mods over next two years turned CTP I into a very good game. CTP II was a step backwards and again Activision refused to support the game, so I say stick with CTP I modded.
-------------------------------------------

Where do I find the CTP I and II user mods?

[ 20 December 2001: Message edited by: Wardad ]</p>

[y.a.newbe]

for CTP (Call To Power) check out http://www.apolyton.net/ctp2/
IMHO the site really s***s but the stuff they provide is worth the trouble.

[Dracus]

I was going to buy real war, but then I heard it was crap also. It seems to me that lately the larger gaming companies are on the same page. They all produce half-done games and then provide no support.
I was really looking forward to more play with simcity 3000 but it was missing some things from 2000. very big let down, then I tryed CTP and found it less enjoyable then civ II so I was looking forward to Civ III to now hear it is messed up. Myth Sega is taken by bugs. Man where do I go now, am I to be reduced to having to dust off the old games in between seiv turns or maybe I could write one of my own.

[Baron Munchausen]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,41282,00.html

Windows XP = Windows Exposed

Oh, yeah, I wanna have the very LATEST software and be up to date! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Think I'll stick with 98 and a decent third-party firewall, actually. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Atrocities]

Thanks for the support on this guys. I thought I was going to get flamed on my opinion of Civ3.

What I liked about the game was the AI. It was very good when compared to CTP1 and II. I also liked the Diplomacy feature of this game, the tech tree was nice, and the sound was ok.

What I despised about Civ3 is a rather extensive list. One that I honestly don’t even want to get started on. I have cut my losses, and have uninstalled the game. I am out the 50 bucks, but at least I have a nice new coaster.

[Talenn]

I have Civ3 and so far, I'm not overly impressed. There are quite a few nice concepts in there, but the tedium and late game micro of EVERYTHING leave a bad taste. I cant believe they couldnt even implement some sort of a stack move...

There are quite a few things I do like, and crashwise, its been fine (only one so far in quite a few games).

All in all, it very much feels like an unfinished product. The fact that they had promised 'cool new multiplayer features' and then pulled multi altogether two weeks before release speaks volumes. The whole game has a 'shoddy' feel to it and its obvious that a lot of fine tuning in balance and feel just didnt get done.

Also, someone mentioned 'REAL WAR' down there? Dont bother...it is REALLY pathetic. Its just another 'build a ton of anything and throw it in the general direction of your enemy' type of RTS game. There is no resource management to speak of and the units are very generic. The unit pathing is dreadful. The game is not worth it even if you found it at 50% off IMO. Wait for the $10 bin and MAYBE its worth it for some of the cinematics...maybe.

For EU2, its pretty good. I sort of burned out on EU1 and 2 isnt so different that I'm totally engrossed, but its still a very strong title, especially with the latest and greatest patch (1.02). If you like any form of historically based TBS games, grab this one.

Just my $.02

Talenn

[Saxon]

I am just seconding Spyder’s request. Anyone got a link for Illwinter Dominions?

Someone has already bought me Civ III and it is in the mail. Sigh.

[Spyder]

Does anyone ever wish that they'd update and re-release The Perfect General?

I thought it was a great two-man game. You played the agressor and then the defender and tallyed the points to see who won. Each city or strategic point held counted points. The original game was limited to Armor & Artillery, but the second (which I never played) incorporated some more materiel.

Another game I wish that they'd update and re-release is Global Conquest. The game was done by Dan Bunten (before he became Dani Bunten) and was a great short-term 4x game. You could have up to 4 players; you had to discover resources, defend them and the cities (which were guarded by neutrals) and conduct exploration & war, while trying to maintain resources and funding. One of the very best options of Global Conquest was that you could set up the turn length to one of 4 methods: 1) Unlimited; 2) 5 minutes; 3) 1 minute; 4) Firecracker. Firecracker is the cutthroat setting http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif On the Firecracker mode, when the first person hits his done button, ALL PLAYERS ARE DONE http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif really evil http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I would make the game board octagonal and increase the number of players to 8 and make the game board a little larger to accomodate that.

[Mephisto]

It is very sad, but Dani Bunten has died due to cancer. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif She made games that I will ever have in my memory (M.U.L.E, Command HQ).

[zen.]

Dracus, Phoenix-D: Yah, they just said that Myth III was nowhere near Myth II in terms of quality. Of course, like Phoenix-D said, this is the same mag that gave Civ3 quite a high rating. Guess first-hand experience is always still the best!

Spyder, Saxon: http://www.illwinter.com/dominions.html

Do most sites/mags rate Civ3 highly? I usually settle on games that there is a consensus of high opinion upon. Although it looks like the scope of Civ3 might take more time than I would have. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

zen

[God Emperor]

On operating systems;

err, I'm still running Win95 on a DOS platform, on my "2 cylinder" P233. Must admit though, I havent used my DOS features for a couple of years......

On the positive side, I've never had any incompatibility problems and my machine is very stable....

Wrt CivIII, thanks for the warnings. Think I may receive it as a Xmas present so at least now I have an idea of the issues...

[ 21 December 2001: Message edited by: God Emperor ]</p>

[mac5732]

My kids were going to get me CIV3, but I told them to hold off until its fixed and told them to order Napoleon's Le Grand Armee from Matrix, just came out, instead (mail order only). How about a remake of Empire Deluxe? Upgrade to current technolgy, I really enjoyed that game and its partner Empire...

Also looking foreward to the book "The Shiva Option" by Weber & White (sequal to In Deaths Ground) similiar to SE4 and Starfire

just some ideas mac http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ 21 December 2001: Message edited by: mac5732 ]</p>

[Growltigga]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by mac5732:
Also looking foreward to the book "The Shiva Option" by Weber & White (sequal to In Deaths Ground) similiar to SE4 and Starfire

[ 21 December 2001: Message edited by: mac5732 ]<hr></blockquote>

I am also looking forward to the Shiva Option - dont know about you but I sometimes find David Weber's books to be a little bit gloom, doom and despondancy - it would be nice for a starfire book to be a little upbeat and not sure of religious nutters or bugs that scoff the locals

SEIV - Starfire - cut from the same mold if you ask me but the charm of SEIV is that you are not stuck doing all the wretched paperwork

3rd edition starfire could sometimes feel like an accountancy exam

[mac5732]

Growltigga, have you checked out Baen.com, it gives preview of the lst 10 chapters of the book, good reading. I agree some books become dry or go to far outbound from where they began, one such was the GOR series, lst number of books were ok but then went down hill to where I quit reading them. Another good series is the Lost Regiment by Fourchan (not sure on spelling).

PS. tks Atrocities for heads up on CIV3, from what most everyone hear says, I'll wait until they clean it up first before I decide to buy it.


just some ideas mac http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Resident Alien 2]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by zenbudo:
Dracus: I just finished reading my latest PC Gamer Last night...Myth 3 got something like 50%. Purchase at your own risk. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Personally, I'm picking up SEIVG and perhaps an FPS like Max Payne or Return to Castle Wolfenstein. Although I suppose I'd better finish Ghost Recon first. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif Simply need something team-like to quench my TFC needs. heh heh

Also, I hear Illwinter's Dominions is also a good turn-based fantasy strategy game. It's produced by three guys, I believe, and their patch list reads frighteningly similar to our own SEIV. Not the best in graphics, but great in scope and execution. Maybe the SEIV for fantasy folks? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

zen<hr></blockquote>

If you are looking for a FPS try the demo for Aliens v Preditor 2. I bought this game yesterday and was just playing the first section of the space marine campaign - very intense with lots of dark corridors full of spooky shadows and nasties. And you get to play as a marine, a preditor or an alien. Time to de-compress with with EU2 or SE4.

[Wardad]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Baron Munchausen:

Windows XP = Windows Exposed

Oh, yeah, I wanna have the very LATEST software and be up to date! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Think I'll stick with 98 and a decent third-party firewall, actually. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif [/QB]<hr></blockquote>

-------------

Win98 for me too. But sooner or later... upgrades happen.

Will my old MOO run on XP? How about Privateer II?

[Spyder]

My Win XP has been great so far...so much better than '98 in terms of reliability. It also seems to use much more of my available memory and use it more efficiently.

[Growltigga]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mac5732:
[QB]Growltigga, have you checked out Baen.com, it gives preview of the lst 10 chapters of the book, good reading. I agree some books become dry or go to far outbound from where they began, one such was the GOR series, lst number of books were ok but then went down hill to where I quit reading them. Another good series is the Lost Regiment by Fourchan (not sure on spelling).

Mac, I checked out the Baen site, damn good reading and a nice way to while away a few hours in the office one afternoon but Baen are cruel to taunt fans like this with only half the story!! by chapter 10, I was getting anxious to work out how the Star Empire turns the tide

Messrs Weber and White are class. The Honor Harrington books by David Weber are damn fine reads I think. Altho' I love the Starfire books, I do find myself occassionally stopping half way through and turning to Terry Pratchett as the starfire story has just got a bit depressing

You are so right about the Gor books - I still pick up Tribesmen of Gor every now and then and read it - fantastic fantasy story - imaginative and fast flowing - after about book 12, John Norman seemed to get more obsessed about enslaving girls - obviously got carried away!!

[Instar]

Hey a MAJOR GRIPE about Civ3....
my goodness, they list the F-15 eagle as the successor to the F-14 tomcat. IMPOSSIBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The F-14 is a carrier based interceptor. the F-15 is land based interceptor. The F-14 and F-15 have very similar missions. You can't say that the F-14 is being replaced by the F-15
ITS SO DUMB!

[Mad_Dog]

About a stable (mor or less, is MS) OS i think W2K-sp2 is the best.
About hardware, well i allways use components made by serious companies (MSI,ASUS,MICRON).
In the game side, only after the first or second patch is out and the news from the players say is ok, then i buy it.

[Lemmy]

I didn't read the entire thread, but i just wanted to say some good things about civ3, it has bugs off course but,

1. The game never crashed on my computer, i have W98, SE4 OTOH crashed several times, even after the first couple of patches.

2. Firaxis are clearly committed to fixing the game, i remember that when the first patch came out, some people with W XP(or was it W2k?) were having problems, some guys at Firaxis worked overtime to get it fixed, and released an updated patch one or two days later.

3.While i was playing the game, i never noticed any of the bugs mentioned and very much enjoyed the game, i probably would have noticed the air superiority bug, but i never got that far.

4. The AI is the best i've ever seen, the AI-players are loyal, if you treat them right they treat you right, unless you're close to winning the game, then they all gang up on you (nobody likes to lose). They also attack with a lot of units, making it dangerous to keep a static defense.

Off course, all of this is my own experience, other people have found flaws in the AI, but i choose not to read them, just to keep me from exploiting that flaw.

One thing i am dissapointed in is the limited modding ability.

[ 22 December 2001: Message edited by: LemmyM ]</p>

[Yin]

mac5732: Battle Realms is a really slick game. Very high production values and quite good. Purchase it for your son! Though I guess this advice came too late.

Regarding Civ3:

It's simply not worth playing in its current state. I won't speak for what the Gold Edition might be like a year from now, but all indications are that this is a game full of sound and fury signifying nothing.

[MarkP]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Atrocities:
THis game is utter complete crap. Just trust me on this. I have been playing it for a month now, and I just unistalled that POS from my computer. The list of things wrong with it is a mile and half long. I am sick and tired of crap from Sid M. and will NEVER buy his trash again.

To hell with Civilization 3. Oh ya, I just trashed the disk, and am going to send it to them in peaces. (Seldom does a game frustrate me to this point, but this one pushed evey button I had.)<hr></blockquote>

[MarkP]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Atrocities:
THis game is utter complete crap. Just trust me on this. I have been playing it for a month now, and I just unistalled that POS from my computer. The list of things wrong with it is a mile and half long. I am sick and tired of crap from Sid M. and will NEVER buy his trash again.

To hell with Civilization 3. Oh ya, I just trashed the disk, and am going to send it to them in peaces. (Seldom does a game frustrate me to this point, but this one pushed evey button I had.)<hr></blockquote>

Atrocities: The game is not that bad, and your acting like sid sleep with your wife or something

[Atrocities]

Mark P, don't come here and flame please. Stay at STC.

[Puke]

yeah, this is a flame free board, lets keep it that way. I had to smile when Growltigga was being concerned over the smack-talk being moderated in the US v UK thread. this is probably the most mature forum on the net, and people handle friendly and even heated discourse very well. dont drag immature @#%$ like that into it.

[mac5732]

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Growltigga, don't have much time, having xmas at in-laws, if wife finds me on computer, " coal for xmas", heh, heh, I agree about Gor, I began to wonder if he had something against women from the way the story line got lost and he paid more attention to women slaves, right on about Baen, I keep cking to see if more chapters are posted, no luck, leaves you in lurch and hungering for the book, have nice holiday, oooppps wife calling me, gotta go. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

ps; the thing that makes this board great is that it is kept Flame Free, open discussions are encouraged and you are free to disagree with whomever, but no flaming, that's what ruins other Boards. Fun Banter if ok

just some ideas mac

[ 24 December 2001: Message edited by: mac5732 ]</p>

[MarkP]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Atrocities:
Mark P, don't come here and flame please. Stay at STC.<hr></blockquote>

Atrocities: Sorry for the flame, I’ve should have said, did Sid kill your dog or what! Why so much anger? it gives the impression that you think Sid did this on purpose. And by the way you got some very good ships sets. Add keep up the good work and sorry for the flame.

What is STC anyway???

[Atrocities]

It's ok Mark, no Sid did not kill my dog, but he drove me to kill my cat. J/K

After playing the game for a month, and finding new and disappointing things about it each and every time I played, I began to grow frustrated with it.

The topper was that stupid face the Military adviser makes whenever one of your cities falls.

In my case, I had betten the Brits back to 12 cities, and out of now where came massive amounts of british spear chuckers and despite my city defenses, (Tanks - Riflemen) they took the cities with no losses. That realy angered me, but when they would took 15 or so of my cities in one turn, I lost it. The game came out of the cd tray, and went strait into the "Give To Good Will" draw. I uninstalled the game, and went down and bought Empire Earth. (EE is a nice game so far.)

Even with the Civ3 editor, patched, the game still was not right. I loved the AI, and the diplomacy of the game, and would consider them to be top notch if not for the games lack of user control and customizability. Hell, Aaron is only one guy, and his game has nearly everything one could want, so why couldn't the hardend team at Civ3 produce a game to rock all games?

Civ3 was a major dissapointment to me, and I felt that it was something that people should know before they bought it. From the Posts in this thread, those who have the game, it would appear that I was not alone in my frustration with this game.

If you like, then I am very happy for you. Please accept that I was not happy with it, and chose to voice my opinion as such.

And welcome to the board. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Phoenix-D]

Atrocities: I hate to tell you, but the Empire Earth AI cheats too. Flagrently. (heck, the scenerio editor has a box on the AI settings tha says "AI cheats?" so you can say yes/no)

Phoenix-D

[Atrocities]

Yes I know, http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif , But I have a compensator. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif If needed, CHEAT CODES. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[tesco samoa]

I think I am the only person who has not played any of the civ games.

When I first saw the game I thought. Gee no space, no armies, no play. And I have stuck to my guns. I have tried civ and civ type games,,,, I can't stand them, Don't know why. Just never liked them. And since I am over 30 I will not change my ways http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[tesco samoa]

I know this is off topic for the off topic do not buy civ 3

but the other day I reinstalled BOTF.

50 turns later the game was removed.

That game sucked.

[Atrocities]

BOTF is a game that you have to spend time to learn. The AI sucked, and some of the other features did too. Over all, when I first bought it, it angered me greatly, but after a few weeks, the game grew on me.

Now, I view BOTF as one of those games that should have been supported, but was not, and that is our loss, and is why micrprose no longer holds any Star Trek licences.

[Puke]

yep.. more of the same. in CIV 1, little settlers, or colonists, or whatever the heck they were would repeatedly destroy my battleships. the CIV games have always been in the bad habit of taken a defeated AI and somehow screwing with their unit statistics to make their outdated pissy units both numerous and undefeatable. its really frustrating, i have given up on CIV. amazingly, SMAC did not cheat that way and was a fairly solid game.. dispite the fact that the game play was exactly the same as CIV and it was just more of the same (with a unit editor, if you want to call it that).

and as Mark P said: what the heck is STC?

[MarkP]

Sorry for the editing I was just playing with it for a while, YEEeee HAA!!!

[Puke]

sort of like ghost writers huh. dont you hate it when a good author starts handing his story ideas over to other people. its like saying "im so good that i dont even have to try anymore"

just like any self righteous bum that puts their name on video games. "sid myers this" and "peter molyniehooayuxez that" (however the hell you spell his name). the only thing that i can think of that is possibly worse is arrogant bastards that pLaster their cheesy www handle onto the title of their SE4 games over on seiv.pbw.cc i mean, what over-inflated ego started that anyway?

[Jourin]

I have been playing CIV3 for the Last 4 weeks. It is a good game and except for the crashes it is fun. Firaxis has said they will support the game and if they do it will be a great game. What upsets me is all the hype and all the great Ratings. In its current state the game is not that great. I think all the great Ratings is based on reputation because it is a Sid game, even though he did not work on it very much if at all. It has a lot of potential but so did CTP and BOTF. The question is, will Firaxis support the game so it reaches that potential.

I saw the potential in CTP and user mods made it into a a very good game. (with little to no help from Activision). I saw the potential in BOTF but even with a lot of work from the user community, the hard coded limitations made the game totally frustrating and not fun and is no longer on my hard drive.

If Firaxis supports CIV3 with patches (definitely more then one will be needed) through the next year then I think CIV3 will be a great game. Currently it is a good game with lots of potential, but also lots of problems and IMO does not desire all the great Ratings and hype.

However, even though I was a CIV fan first, I would rate SEIV at least twice as good as CIV3. I gave SEIV gold as Christmas presents to my nephews by giving them an "I owe you 1 SEIV gold game" in their card. After showing them the current game, they can not wait.

[Atrocities]

You know, if they would fix the problems, and improve the UI, add some features, and fine tune the game, ya it would be a very fun game.

But will they?

[klausD]

I also think that CIV3 is a rather bad game. I am wondering of all the good press about this game out there. I prefer a good patched and modded CTPII to everything Meyer and his gang has released (ok I liked colonisation a little bit) in the Last years.

IMO the problems are:
1. the combat system. Sid Meyer used the movement and combat system of the old PC-game empire (or final destiny) since the first incarnation of Civ. I dont have any idea why he didnt change this obsolete system in CIV3. I mean CTPI and CTPII showed everybody an acceptable combat concept with balancing armies and interesting troop attributes.

2. the workers and settlers. Why by the heck does CIV3 use this ancient and tedious concept? The public works system of CTP series works much more simple and better.

3. I like also the SF setting of CTP with all its wonderful underwater cities, submarines and technologies- its simple more game than CIV3.

4. And Last but not least I love all these non-military units of CTP. (Lawers, slave hunters etc.) They provide a alternative kind of game.

All in all the big failure of Civ is done by their designers. They seem to be too arrogant to learn from another civ-incarnations to improve their own game. And thats why this game disappeared from my HD several days ago - now my copy is on ebay for sale and I doubt that I will buy again something from Firaxis.

[Spyder]

Well, I got my Civ III for Christmas. I don't have any problems with it other than its just more of the same http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif I also find the new interface to be cumbersome.

[MarkP]

As for myself I think Civ 3, needs a lot of improvement . And I’ve haven’t play it from the time I got EU2 which is a much better game by the way. But I just wish Sid will put in some more time with his games, than to delegate it to someone who does not care to design or make a game. I still remember the first time that I played Civ 2, It was just fantastic, Almost as good as playing MOO for the first time. And now I think I’m getting vary tired and old. But then you have SEIV and EU2 whitch are bringing back the good old times.

[ 26 December 2001: Message edited by: MarkP ]

[ 26 December 2001: Message edited by: MarkP ]</p>

[LLB]

Atrocities,

My experience with CivIII was surprisingly similar to yours, but we seem to have come to slightly different conclusions. I too shared my starting continent with the Brits. After several hundred years of a mutually profitable trade relationship, Elizabeth broke it to attack with swarms of ground units. I too had more cities and better technology, and I too was losing. (What was worse, Elizabeth managed to enlist just about everyone else in the world in her cause of exterminating Evil Me.) When I lost three elite Knight units trying to kill a lone regular Spearman defending unfortified in open terrain, I too almost lost it. Ridiculous!

After I cooled off, I took a closer look at the combat system. It turns out that, like the earlier Civ games (though to a lesser degree), the combat system strongly favors quantity over quality. The benefits of higher attack and defense values are just not as great as their numeric values might suggest. This means of course that defending cities with small numbers of high quality units is a prescription for losing cities, and attacking with small numbers of high quality units is a prescription for losing a war of attrition in very short order.

Despite being a little slow to realize all this, I did manage to exterminate the English and achieve a rough stand-off parity with the rest of my opponents, although it cost me about 40% of my cities and took about 500 years. In the process I discovered that some subtleties in the game that weren't initially obvious (similar to your experience, and mine, with BOTF). Some of these subtleties include the use of terrain on defense, the use of bombardment units, and the use of the better mobility of the more advanced units (and your own transportation net, which, unlike in earlier Civ games, your opponent can't benefit from) to create local firepower superiorities.

My point here is that CivIII could definitely have been a *much* better game, but like BOTF I think it does reward some patient effort. After your frustrations have cooled a bit, you might want to give it another try before giving it to Goodwill. Just a thought.

L.

[CNCRaymond]

From what I have seen of this game, I will not buy it. I do agree that a patched and modded Version of CTP II is a much improved game over strait CTP II.

CTP was a lot of fun. I look forward to the day I can play CTP III if one is to come out.

[Askan Nightbringer]

I'm going to come to poor old Civ III's defence mainly coz everyone seemed to be comparing it to CTP and CTPII which I thought both were complete rubbish (that I still happily spent my cash on thou).

First here's my good points.
1. Its not CTP. I never played the modded Version but I tried to follow the patches for a while. I never found this game hard, even remotely difficult. The hardest bit was bothering to win.

2. Strategic resources. Thats a cool idea and really changes some of the concepts of the city placement and unit building.

3. Culture border thingy. Means I can justify packing my cities in and overlap some squares.

4. Diplomacy and trade seem good. Although I've never seen anyone bribe me for a peace deal (which sux, I don't call off my swordsmen for nothing).

5. AI. Mentioned already but it seems quite good, even whacked me around a bit.Once it even sent in a suicide soldier to pillage a road to my only iron source! (which may have been pure fluke by the way).

6. The little things. They have made heaps of little tweaks to various aspects of the game. No rush building wonders (I can't collect the whole set no more), no have enemy tanks using your transport system against you and getting rid of ZOC for example. I get the feeling that the design team has had a good look at what were all the faults with CIV and CIV II and made a serious effort to eliminate them.

And just coz a I'm a fair boy I'll acknowledge some faults.
1. I have had the game for about 5 days and have hardly slept. I'm staying up to 4am playing (just until my communist government kicks in) and waking up 4 hours later to go to work. Its been hell.

2. Speed. Watching an allied AI move 50 cavalry through your territory, even with animations off, is painfully slow. I think thats the real reason I stay up to 4am.

3. Information. Its a pain working out what cities are rebelling, which one has the high production and I can't seem to find what my allies are researching (all which was much easier in previous Versions).

4. It is pretty much the same. But so was CIV II and I still played that non stop.

5. No multiplayer. What happened there?!

So for the momemnt I give the thumbs up for the game!!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Mainly coz of AI.


And just FYI.
Sid had not that much to do with Civ II either. Its was Jeff Briggs (who pretty much did III) and Brian Reynolds (who was the big man an Alpha Centauri).
Brian left Firaxis about 6 months after Alpha Centauri, so I really wonder how much of an effect that had on the end result of CIV III.

Cheers all,
Askan

[Atrocities]

Response to Askan post.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>2. Strategic resources. Thats a cool idea and really changes some of the concepts of the city placement and unit building<hr></blockquote>

Good point, I must agree, that the Strategic resources was a good idea, and does lend toward the games appeal.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>3. Culture border thingy. Means I can justify packing my cities in and overlap some squares.<hr></blockquote>

Your right again, this did help me gain a few enemy cities.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>4. Diplomacy and trade seem good. Although I've never seen anyone bribe me for a peace deal (which sux, I don't call off my swordsmen for nothing).<hr></blockquote>

This is one of the indeering qualities of this game, and is one that I have stated I liked.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>5. AI. Mentioned already but it seems quite good, even whacked me around a bit.Once it even sent in a suicide soldier to pillage a road to my only iron source! (which may have been pure fluke by the way).<hr></blockquote>

Agreed, the AI in this game is rather good.

I feel the game is salvageable, but in order to do that, a lot of thing will need to be done. Mentioned already in this thread are just a few of the improvements that could be made. Again, I ask, will they make them? Answer, probibly not. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[MarkP]

Civ 3 is alright but could have been a lot better. And It also would be a lot pleasurable{ “if people would stop trashing it”} and making everyone who have the game feel like sh*t.

WHO wants to play a game, that everyone says is crap.????????

[ 27 December 2001: Message edited by: MarkP ]</p>

[Mephisto]

Noone wants to make you fell like anything, MarkP. The people here talk about a game. I don't see how this can make you fell like sh*t. If any game would make me feel a way I would feel like superman for playing SE4. As I'm not wearing a blue/read dress, I would say, it did not make me feel like it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[MarkP]

Alright when I was thinking of my Last post I detent have a chance to read Atrocities post, But I’m glad that you will give it a chance when it gets better.

[Atrocities]

MarkP, its not that I hate the game, its that I dislike its current condition. Hell ya I will play the game once some of the issues have been corrected. Man I stayed up overnight playing it for several days. I played if for a month before getting ticked off at the stupid Military adviser, the one that makes the really dumb and annoying face and really does not help you.

The game has a lot to offer, and you should be proud that you enjoy it, and have it. I know that even if the game does not get improved, I still somewhat enjoyed it.

As Mephisto said, if a game can make you feel anything, SEIV would make a person feel like superman. Civ3 made me feel like a dark lord full of anger, and I had to step away from it. It may make others feel like Kings, and for a while it did that for me, but to me, the game is like that Ring in LOR's, it eventually took over my mind and made me evil..... wonders off to hurt something ........ http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[mac5732]

Well, my daughter got me CIV3 for Xmas, so I will give it a try eventually, currently also got EU2 for xmas and that's what I'm playing around with for now, also ordered SEIV-gold.

Yin, sorry I didn't get to read your message sooner, didn't get my son Battle Realms but he has birthday in March, I'll get it for him then, I got him Conquest and Napoleon at Australitz by Matrix. They'll keep him busy until then, but tks for the info on the game

just some ideas mac

[bstripp]

I havn't made it through the entire thread yet, but if no one has posted the link to Illwinter's site it is:

http://www.illwinter.com/dom_intro.html

I'm downloading the demo now as it looks pretty cool.

[Jmenschenfresser]

Menschenfresser here...had to get a new account for stupid reasons.

I haven't read the whole thread so forgive if this have been stated before, but I noticed that several people were harkening back to olden days when war games and strategy games were simple but excellent. Some listed were: Global Conquest, Empire Deluxe, etc. I haven't looked them all up, but check out www.theunderdogs.org (http://www.theunderdogs.org) for old abandonware games. I know they have the two I listed. The games don't always work, so be warned, but I do know Empire works. And the web site is often extremely slow, but if you show a little patience, you will come out with some old classics. Most of the games have manuals as well.

Enjoy.

[mac5732]

Mens..... in regards to the old games, did they upgrade them to windows format? do they play any better then before, I really enjoyed Empire Delux, was a fun game. tks I ck the site

mac

[tesco samoa]

another good site is

matrixgames for old ones
and don't forget

http://www.militarygamer.net/
http://www.navalwarfare.net/
use it as a portal for all your military gaming needs

[Jmenschenfresser]

Mac,
Some yes, some no. I don't know what sort of issuses you had with the old Versions, but the ones that I get to work, usually work fine. I did come across one RPG (don't remember the name now), that hadn't been recalibrated for newer, faster machines (at least I assume that is the problem) because the movement of the game was extremely fast (light speed). Most war games don't have that problem. Although I did run into it when I bought an old copy of The Ancient Art of War for a resale shop. The animated battles happened at light speed and I had about enough time to get in one maybe two commands before it was over.

If you are worried about it working and don't want to waste hours waiting for a d/l that won't work, check their forum. You can find complaints there about games not working.

I've only played two games on the Empire Deluxe I got from there and both went fine, but off the top of my head I can't remember if it ran in windows or Dos.

And thanks Tesco for the others...

[mac5732]

Mens.....I was just wondering if they would work in windows on a faster machine. Thought of same problem you had, with moving way to fast to enjoy. They worked fine on my old atari & commodore, just didn't know if the would work right on my Dell 733. tks for the info.

Yes, tks TS for the other sites, will ck them out

just some ideas mac http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

A neat one is "AlphaMan" (http://www.win.tue.nl/~kroisos/alphaman/). (Absolutely no speed problems)
You're a mutant in a future wasteland, and have to fight your way through forests & explore buildings & stuff.
You get 2 random mutant powers at the start to keep things different.

The thing I like best is that all of the hightechtoys & most items are given nonsense names until you figure them out.
You have to fiddle around with the "Large Metal Object" for a while before you figure out that its a hovercraft.
(And the names are randomized each game, so you can't memorize it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

I'd love to have that sort of thing in SE4, where players don't know what each tech area will provide until they've figured out the prerequisite techs.

[ 08 January 2002: Message edited by: suicide_junkie ]</p>

[Phoenix-D]

If the old games run too fast, there's always MoSlo. Slows your computer down so the games are playable.

Still looking for a playable Version of Xcom 1/2 myself, and another MOO2. (MOO1 too maybe). I had all those minus MOO1, care of gifts and a "retro gaming" PC gamer CD, but lost them. Found other downloadable Versions of x-com, but unlike the PCG Version they don't work right- very slow in the base screen/menus, very FAST on the globe screen.

Phoenix-D

[mac5732]

SJ, I like your idea, sorta like 1 or 2 mystery type techs, chance you take to research because you don't know what your going to get or how good they will be or how good they get the higher up you go in the tree. Throw in a random number of them so you don't get the same ones each game so you can't memorize them and know which ones you want or don't want. Great idea, limitless possibilities if it can be done. Also make it moddable for you modders http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

just some ideas mac

[Atrocities]

Well the latest patch was released recently, and the game has progressed from very annoying do not buy to "hey this kinda fun" ok to buy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

The Expansion pack has been announced and it promises to make a lot more improvements. So what the hell, I have upgraded my "Do Not Buy" "Buy if your really board" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Baron Munchausen]

Originally posted by Atrocities:
Well the latest patch was released recently, and the game has progressed from very annoying do not buy to "hey this kinda fun" ok to buy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

The Expansion pack has been announced and it promises to make a lot more improvements. So what the hell, I have upgraded my "Do Not Buy" "Buy if your really bored" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Heh... what'd I say months ago? Development of any signifigant program is now completed in public. DON'T BUY FIRST RELEASES -- unless you want to finance development.

I figured that Civ III would be a pretty decent program about a year after release. Looks like it's on track. When MOO III is released in public beta I'll buy Civ III. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ June 05, 2002, 16:34: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

[Fyron]

What? They will make us pay more money for the most important feature (MP) that should have been in the initial release? Ridiculous!

Edit:
...for the first time in a Civilization game, a turnless mode. Civilization game fans around the world can now face off in short, fast-paced games like Elimination, Regicide and Capture the Flag...<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That is just sickening.

...complete game editor and scenario support...<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yet another lacked feature in the release that crippled the game IMO.

[ June 06, 2002, 03:18: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Atrocities]

I still say this game is utter complete crap!

[Fyron]

Thread necromancy! Evil! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/skull.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/stupid.gif

[Atrocities]

You betcha my young and equally evil friend. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Aiken]

/me is trying to find the very first topic in SE4 forum to bring it to life.

[Fyron]

It was moved to the 2000 Archives or something like that a long time ago...

[Mayday]

Wow, talk about digging.
I like Civ3 Conquests... buuuut... I never play it unmodded.
At the moment I use the "Rise and Rule" mod, which makes the game approximately a million times more fun, by speeding up ships, allowing stealth bombers a hell of a lot more range, and adding hundreds on hundreds of new units and buildings and wonders.

[Randallw]

Imperator Fyron said:
Thread necromancy! Evil! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/skull.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/stupid.gif



This from the guy who spent an hour arguing that animating the dead is not intrinsically evil http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

[Atrocities]

aiken said:
/me is trying to find the very first topic in SE4 forum to bring it to life.



Its already been done at least twice before. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

"Break out the padddels, its CPR time!"

[Fyron]

Randallw said:
This from the guy who spent an hour arguing that animating the dead is not intrinsically evil http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

It is not. But thread necromancy is one of the evil uses it can be put to. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif