CBM 1.92 EDM summons cost increase

[WraithLord]

Hi,

I got this input from basically all over that EDM summons need to be harder to get. This is an opinion I also share.

So until CBM 2.x gets out that addresses this is released I made a simple fix upon Cal's Ettin fix ver.- up the cost of most CBM summons as follows:
This is current version stats:
- Zmey, 30->40, F6
- Shishis, 35->40
- Firebird, same
- Ember Lord, same
- Roc, 18->25
- Aesir, same
- Mechanical Giant, same
- Cyclopes, 35->42
- Kraken, W5
- Grendelkin, 40->50
- Wendigo, 24->30 and reduce the magic to W3D3
- Ettin, 14->20
- Treant, 30->36

I plan to use this mod in YARG4 (unless CBM 2.x is out).

All the credits go where they belong - QM, LLama and Calahan.
Inputs are welcome of course.
EDIT: thanks for all the excellent feedback at - http://z7.invisionfree.com/Dom3mods/index.php?act=Post&CODE=02&f=1&t=820

The current ver. of the fix is attached.

[earcaraxe]

this is a little offtopic, but will next CBMs version number be 2.0 or 1.10? im not familiar with the customs/protocol regarding this. i guess this depends on the weight of the changes, right?

[WraithLord]

No idea here.

Mod looks to be working ok. I changed the desc. so that it fits better in mod selection screen.

Any comments re. the new prices?

[Valerius]

The price increases seem reasonable to me, though I'd likely bump the Wendigo to 35 gems and reduce the magic to W3D3 (see this thread (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=48807) for why).

[Korwin]

I got the impression that the casting requirements will get increased for future EDM's (maybe in combi with price increases).

[WraithLord]

The price increases seem reasonable to me, though I'd likely bump the Wendigo to 35 gems and reduce the magic to W3D3 (see this thread (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=48807) for why).

I agree but I don't know how to implement.
So will increase price to 35.

[Soyweiser]

#newmonster 2906
#copystats 2905
#spr1 "./CBM_Sprites/wendigo7.tga"
#spr2 "./CBM_Sprites/wendigo7_att.tga"
#name "Wendigo" -- Turn 12, final state
#descr "This wendigo has consumed the flesh of thousands and can finally grow no more, but its hunger remains unabated. The pain it suffers is worse than ever, and it is prone to fall victim to frenzy. While once a human it has become a terrible creature of ice and blood, emaciated and suffering from an uncontrollable and insatiable hunger for human flesh. It will eat large numbers of the local population wherever it is. Wendigos are horrifying and disturbing creatures, and only the bravest of soldiers will hold steady against them. The wendigo is surrounded by a chill wind."
#size 6
#hp 120
#str 22
#magicboost 2 3
#magicboost 5 3
#berserk 3
#mr 18
#end


Change #magicboost 5 3 in #magicboost 5 2

[WraithLord]

#magicboost 2 3
#magicboost 5 3

So change 5 3 to 5 2 will make his D top at 3 (+2).
I should do the same for water?- right?- as in 2 3 -> 2 2

Hey while I'm at it I could have added Sombre's awesome sprites upgrade mode but I think I'll draw the line here.
I don't want to infringe on llamabeast's work and anyway I need to first ask for Sombre's kind permission.

[WraithLord]

OP updated w/ latest version

[kianduatha]

Were people using Wild Ettins too much? Krakens? Especially Ettins, actually; that's nearly a 50% cost increase--as much as Wendigo are getting.

I think the proposed CBM change of making them harder to get to(higher path costs) seems like it will fix more problems than simple cost increases--boosting Zmeys up to F5, Wendigo to W4D4, Grendelkin to W4E4 would increase the cost in a more indirect way--either requiring more Const infrastructure or a pretender for nations not focused in those elements.

[Soyweiser]

I thought only the death 4 was a problem. But yeah, that is how magic boost works.

This change also means that the later turn changes of the wendigo only add stats and berserk.

[kianduatha]

We were discussing this more on IRC! Here are some of the results from people who don't/can't post here.

http://z7.invisionfree.com/Dom3mods/index.php?showtopic=820&st=0#entry22014395

[Valerius]

@Soy: I agree the D4 is a bigger issue but I'm also not a fan of the W4. With a W3 cap he can still perform on the battlefield while not having quite the same strength when it comes to ritual magic. Hmm, actually if I were giving someone W4 it would be the kokythiad since she's probably been overshadowed most by the wendigo.


I think there's two issues.

Calahan's proposal of increasing casting requirements and thus requiring more planning to make use of the various summons (especially the top tier) by having a higher barrier to entry. I think most people would agree with this.

Then there's the matter of increasing the cost of the summons. This has an ongoing effect and alters your gem usage pattern. I see two possibilities here:

1) Changing the balance between thugs/SCs and troop summons. This of course is not a new thing and people have different preferences regarding what balance they prefer between troops and thugs/SCs. Personally I've been pretty happy with how CBM has developed along these lines but if the EDM summons have overshadowed various troop summons I'd be ok with trying to make troop summons more appealing.

2) Changing the balance between SC alternatives. And here I'm talking tarts vs. everyone else. I have nothing against tarts; I'd like them to be a good alternative. But I don't want them to be the optimal one. To draw an extreme example: if you gave me a choice between tarts dominating or the EDM summons dominating I'll take the latter every time. I don't think I'm the only one who got really tired of the chalice/GoH --> tarts routine. And while I was as happy as anyone to see the formal removal of gem gens this made tarts the only game in town if you didn't have national SCs.

So if there's going to be an across-the-board increase in EDM prices (as opposed to targeted increases for some units) to accomplish point 1 then I'd like point 2 to be kept in mind.

And if tarts are currently not appealing, why is that? What can be done to promote them without making them "the best" as opposed to "a" choice? One thing that has occured to me is that I don't think having N gems be a bottleneck for effective tart usage does them any favors. Even if you plan on using tarts as casters as opposed to SCs that's still 15 N gems that could go towards gearing an alternative SC chassis. Sure, the stars like the lightning cyclops and titan are still worth GoRing but the others not nearly so much. What would be the effect of, for instance, increasing tart D cost by 4 gems and decreasing restore soul by 4 gems? With the addition of alternative SC options and combining the magic diversity of the EDM summons with the mage summons already in the game I think tart pricing can safely assume the tart summoner has the chalice/GoH (previously you had to consider that non-chalice/GoH owners would also need tarts since they were the only game in town). If you have one of those two things what price point would make tarts an appealing summon given the current EDM price points?

[WraithLord]

New ver. up:
- Zmey, 30->40, F6
- Shishis, 35->40
- Firebird, same
- Ember Lord, same
- Roc, 18->25
- Aesir, same
- Mechanical Giant, same
- Cyclopes, 35->42
- Kraken, W5
- Grendelkin, 40->50
- Wendigo, 24->30 and reduce the magic to W3D3
- Ettin, 14->20
- Treant, 30->36

[Redeyes]

I don't think adjusting gem costs alone is the best way to balance these summons when looking at gem income and site distribution. If you have a fire income of 8 surplus gems you will currently produce a Zmey in 4 turns, with the mod you get one in 5.

If you instead make 10 surplus gems then you will still have a Zmey in 4 turns - the difference between production rates post-change and pre-change of summons is negligible when compared to the differences in number of summons different individuals will control due to the randomness inherent in special site gem income.

This is true even when looking at the Zmey which percentually sees the largest increase in gem cost.

Instead it would be more appropriate to adjust stats as well, such that stats are balanced around gem cost and the stage of the game the unit comes into play and not the other way around, which is gem costs around stats.

[Admiral_Aorta]

Hey while I'm at it I could have added Sombre's awesome sprites upgrade mode but I think I'll draw the line here.
I think llamabeast is going to do this for the next CBM anyway.

[Valerius]

As regards wendigo, the key thing is nerfing the magic, which you did. My gut instinct is that they are worth 35 gems (another nice thing about this price point is it helps promote the kokythiad - 30 gems for a stealthy mage or 35 gems for an SC). But that would be largest price increase on your list so it may be better to go with the 30 gem cost you chose.

As regards zmey, I also like the idea of making some kind of change to the unit but you don't want to make too many changes at once so for YARG 4 I can see going with the price/casting requirement increase and see how that goes.

Maybe next game I start I'll try Calahan's reduced misc slot idea and see how that works.

[legowarrior]

Take the Zmey, and make it a unit instead of a leader.

[GFSnl]

I still really think Zmey's should have the 'cold blooded' trait.

That way it wouldn't be a good raider in some situations.
This is a good thing. As Dom3 is about strategic thinking and planning ahead. Having access to a good general purpose flying raider makes it a boring unit. The way it is now, it lessens diversity among nations.

This might also be a problem by giving all nations access to all Sombre's Summons. It might reduce diversity too. These summons would preferably have to be powerful niche summons as to not make national units/summons inferior.

[earcaraxe]

the reason i think its better to not make zmey coldblooded is that it would totally neutralize the zmey against cold nations, while non-cold nations would be helped only little (wolven winter).

[Athenspatch]

After enabling this mod, I got the following Nagot fick fel! crash.

myloadmalloc: can't open ./mods/./CBM_Sprites/GL_Sorceress_Vampiress_1.tga

Can anyone help me get the mod working without crashing? Thanks!

[Athenspatch]

Okay, read through the forums some and decided to also take the original CBM 1.92 mod. Something about spirtes...

So now when I try to create a game I get the Nagot crash that reads

#selectweapons command

Anyone able to guide me through mod install? Please and thanks!

[fungalreason]

Is your copy of dominions patched to the latest version?

Download the patch from http://www.shrapnelgames.com/Illwinter/DOM3/DOM3_page.html and try again if not

[Redeyes]

the reason i think its better to not make zmey coldblooded is that it would totally neutralize the zmey against cold nations, while non-cold nations would be helped only little (wolven winter).In a similar discussion perhaps the Zmey could do with slightly higher baseline encumbrance? Encumbrance 1 is almost uniquely low.

For the reasons I outlined before - on gem costs and why even a 10 gem increase doesn't matter much due to the randomness of gem income and the other part of the sunk cost which is items - adjusting the stats makes more sense to weaken the usage of Zmey against all nations.

[Torgon]

I'm with Redeyes on this one. While some of the EDM summons are too cheap the fundamental problem with a couple of them is just that they don't follow the fundamental theory of dominions: that everything should have a weakness to something.

The biggest offenders are the Zmey, Grendlekin, and Cyclops. Four pretty ubber monsters that are all completely weakness free: they're not magic beings, not undead, not cold blooded, low enc, high prot, no astral, either full slots or in the zmey's case doesn't need the slots because base stats are even more ubber. Give them each weaknesses that can be exploited somehow and you'll fix a lot of the problems.

[Redeyes]

Note: I don't think I want to neuter summons by artificially giving them significant weaknesses. It's the cold-blooded scenario, which doesn't change anything when you go up against any heat-domain based nation.

Rather over the line stats should be brought toward the average, such that protection is placed at a level where crossbows or infantry can be a threat when the summon isn't geared. 22 to 16, or something in that range.

Instead, if I am arguing anything, is that more summons perhaps ought to be balanced around their casting costs and not by increasing that cost to where it matches the current utility payoff.