Stealth Armour/Cloaking - possible bug

[Growltigga]

I have just reached the glorified heights of Armour - 4 and have developed Scattering Armour I, Emissive Armour I and Stealth Armour I.

I can see all the wonderful benefits of these bits of kit (although my testing seems to show that the Scattering/Emissive Armour doesn't really appear to work) but can someone tell me why the Stealth Armour gives you cloaking ability - given that this is a separate tech you research under physics - seems an awfully large advantage to have early on.

Is this a bug or what?

[bearclaw]

The stealth is only level 2. The very first tech level of any scanners renders this abilty useless. It's not a bug, although there have been discussions on it... I've found that the advantage it gives is very short lived. It doesn't take long before everyone has sensors once someone has this tech.

[Gryphin]

Growltigga,
The Brave man and the fool both make decisions and take chances. The fool and the brave man may end up as space dust. It is the outcome of their efforts that will determine their status.
As to the benefits of Armor, Stealth, and Sensors, I say, "Scissors, Rock, Paper"

[Growltigga]

I suspect you are right about the 'scissors, rock, paper' test - a lot of this game appears to follow that concept

the same also applies to a lot of boardgames - once you had the hang of what was the rock/scissor/paper etc, you had pretty much exhausted everything - I always used to rely on the 'Godzilla effect' ie putting my foot throught the gaming board when frustrated http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

[Gryphin]

Growltigga,
Re: 'scissors, rock, paper'. That is the pleasure in playing against "Humans". You never know what 'scissors, rock, or paper' they will use. The AI, (algorithm intellect), is fairly predictable after a while.

[Growltigga]

Gryphin
Too right - but sometimes the AI can catch you out by doing something so ridiculous it either (a) wrong foots you completely or (b) belongs on the Muppet Show

Have you tried playing SEIV against 'human' (giving the term its widest possible definition) as of yet? I can see how it could be absolutely fantastic

[Growltigga]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by bearclaw:
The stealth is only level 2.

[RU sure about this? - I have double checked and Armour - 2 only gives you Armour II - you only get Stealth armour at level 4.]

The very first tech level of any scanners renders this abilty useless. It's not a bug, although there have been discussions on it...

[Noted - I have only played against the AI so have (a) not seen any AI races using it and (b) if I have, I have not been aware of it - by first tech level of scanners, do you mean Long Range Scanners I that you get with researching Physics 2?]

[My query however is that as soon as you instal Stealth Armour I on any ship, you get a new icon which allows you to 'cloak' - I would have thought that researching cloaking technology (physics 3) shuld give you this ability as when I activate the stealth armour I 'cloak' - nothing sees me at all]

I've found that the advantage it gives is very short lived. It doesn't take long before everyone has sensors once someone has this tech.

[I suspect you are right - I am sure Gryphin will get this when I play him at PBEM/PBW later on]

<hr></blockquote>

[Gryphin]

Growltigga,
I don't need to hide behind little sissy skirts of stealth,

[Growltigga]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Gryphin:
Growltigga,
I don't need to hide behind little sissy skirts of stealth,<hr></blockquote>

More fool you then!!

[Gryphin]

The difference between a brave man and a foolish one is written in the history book.

[Growltigga]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Gryphin:
The difference between a brave man and a foolish one is written in the history book.<hr></blockquote>

[deep profound sigh - similar to the sort a primary school teacher would give a particularily truculent class of 5 year olds] Here we go again

You are no doubt going to say that the foolish man is the one writing the book as the brave man is in 12 different pieces for being brave

You stick to your guns m'bucko - I'll be stealthed up to the nines being surreptitious and all and you can charge round like John Wayne with haemmorroids

[Krsqk]

Stealth Armor has cloaking level 2. Any sensor--Tachyon Sensors, Hyper Optics, Gravitic Sensors, Psychic Sensors, or Temporal Sensors--will detect a ship cloaked with Stealth Armor. Tachyon Sensors are available at Sensor tech levels 4-6; Hyper Optics are at Adv. Mil. Sci. TL 4-6; Grav, Psy, and Temp Sensors are racial techs. Cloaking devices provide cloaking from level 2 through level 4; sensors allow you to detect ships cloaked from level 2 (with the lowest sensors) to level 4 (with the best sensors). You don't have to research all sensor types to detect a cloaked ship; any one will do. Hyper Optics are the cheapest component and also have the cheapest research path, and are probably the best choice.

[Gryphin]

Krsqk,
Thanks for that information. Basicaly it means, "You can run, but you can't hide" (for long).

[Growltigga]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Gryphin:
Krsqk,
Thanks for that information. Basicaly it means, "You can run, but you can't hide" (for long).<hr></blockquote>

Krsqk, thanks for the info as well, I havn't got to those research levels yet but will experiment

Gryphin, excellent result and another example of the rock/paper/scissors mentality of SEIV, which at the end of the day means you can surprise people only for a short length of time. Sounds good

[Phoenix-D]

"Too right - but sometimes the AI can catch you out by doing something so ridiculous it either (a) wrong foots you completely or (b) belongs on the Muppet Show"

Well, humans *can* do that too..in Newbie Game 2 (actual title) I surprised the heck out of everyone- and dramaticlly upset the balance of power- by scrapping all my ships, abandoning all my colonies, and RPing a departure to parts unknown.

Phoenix-D

[Growltigga]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
"Well, humans *can* do that too..in Newbie Game 2 (actual title) I surprised the heck out of everyone- and dramaticlly upset the balance of power- by scrapping all my ships, abandoning all my colonies, and RPing a departure to parts unknown.<hr></blockquote>

Phoenix D - that is brilliant - how on earth did everyone else react to that? I personally would have laughed so hard that the tears would have run down my legs - how did you actually get rid of everybody

I know people can throw a left field - my point was that sometimes actually the AI can also do that - cue drums, cue horns, cue someone singing 'It's time to face the music, it's time to light the lights'

[Gryphin]

Hmm, Maybe it is the "daftness" of me that Growltigga referes to, but I missed something. I understand all that Phoenix-D up to the expression of, "RPing a departure to parts unknown"
What does that mean, and how did it upset things?

[Phoenix-D]

"I understand all that Phoenix-D up to the expression of, "RPing a departure to parts unknown"
What does that mean, and how did it upset things"

RP = role-playing

The Certdsh Imperium (the race I was playing) was essentially a group of refugees. They landed in the area of the galaxy used by the Newbie 2 game, and despite their xenophobic nature, became strong allies with the second-largest power in the region. They were the third, and at odds with the #1 power. Combined, #2 and #3 probably could have beaten back #1, but then the Certdsh decided to return from where they had came and kick the *** of their other enemies. The result was a "power vaccum" that left the #2 race much weakened and vulnerable.

In OCC terms, at the height of the game, during a sort of Cold War, I destroyed ALL the Certdsh assests in a single turn (because they had "left" the region), gifted what I could not destroy to my ally, and bowed out of the game. My ally, much-weaked and with an exposed front thanks to my "departure", promptly folded.

EDIT: the nitty gritty details:
-I moved all my ships to space yards except some of the border defense ships.
-I moved transports over most of my worlds
-I loaded population onto the transports, then spaced the population. Repeated until the colony dropped under 50m people, then abandoned the colony (can't abandon a colony over 50m people)
-I scrapped ALL my ships at the space yards
-Then gifted what remained to my ally

Phoenix-D

[ 10 January 2002: Message edited by: Phoenix-D ]</p>

[Gryphin]

Phoenix-D:
When I'm goodenough, (if ever), I need to play against / with you. I love the unpredictable.
Thanks for the expanation.

[Phoenix-D]

"I know people can throw a left field - my point was that sometimes actually the AI can also do that"

Ah. I thought you meant humans never did anything quite as utterly *bizarre* as what the AIs do on occasion http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Phoenix-D

[Kimball]

The biggest avantage of the stealth (and scattering) armor lies in the defense bonus. I still apply stealth armor and scattering armor even when I have obtained cloaking and high levels of shields. Just my two cents worth.

[Growltigga]

Kimball - many thanks for your comments - I agree that the defensive bonues of stealth and scattering armour, irrespective of the 'cloaking' benefit (hell - just sit in a storm if you want to be invisible) make then worthwhile.

Does anyone use emissive armour? - on the face of it, this should be quite valuable but I just cannot seem to see it work when I test it in the simulator

[Growltigga]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
"Ah. I thought you meant humans never did anything quite as utterly *bizarre* as what the AIs do on occasion http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Phoenix-D<hr></blockquote>

PD, what I was saying is that humans are nearly always bizarre, that is the attraction of playing them as they are generally unpredicatable (except for my Aunt Mildred who is completely predictable).

The AI *is* generally predictable but sometimes, nevertheless, can throw a wobbler and really confuse you - rare but it happens

[Aub]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Growltigga:
Kimball - many thanks for your comments - I agree that the defensive bonues of stealth and scattering armour, irrespective of the 'cloaking' benefit (hell - just sit in a storm if you want to be invisible) make then worthwhile...
<hr></blockquote>

I was saying it on a different thread but I guess I can repeat it here again. I do feel the stealth armor is unbalanced, not only because it gives you cloaking early on (the ability that at higher levels costs much much more, both in research and costs of components) but because it's simply overloaded with goodies. Taking the stealth armor is a no-brainer, you cannot lose by that. And that is, in my book, the definition of unbalanced http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Fyron]

Sure you can "lose" by that. What if your using organic armor? If the stealth armor happens to get hit before any of the organic armor does, then all that regeneration won't help it.

[Puke]

stealth and scattering armor are awfully big for any ship less than a LC. i usually only put them on certain ships (or only put one or the other of them on) untill i get BCs or bigger.

maybe you think they would be more ballanced if they had less armor value? this would make it a harder choice wither or not to put them on your ship?

[Aub]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Puke:
maybe you think they would be more ballanced if they had less armor value? this would make it a harder choice wither or not to put them on your ship?<hr></blockquote>

Of course lowering the armor value will help balancing it. The stealth and defense abilities do mean a lot, but in the end I think they would not be worth it if the armor value was very low. So the answer lies somewhere in between, maybe at 1/3 of the current value or in that range.

That's only my opinion of course, one would have to run a coule of test games to verify it.

[Suicide Junkie]

IMO, the armor value already sucks.

Try comparing your stealth armor to 3/4 of a shield generator.

At max tech, you're trading off 15% ECM for +200 hitpoints.
Therefore, unless your ship can survive 1300 damage points being flung at it (either by dodging or shields/armor) the Phased Shield V is better than the stealth armor.

EG: at a 60% to-hit, your ship needs 3 or more shield generators in order for the Stealth armor to be worth it.

[Aub]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by suicide_junkie:
... the Phased Shield V is better than the stealth armor.<hr></blockquote>

But of course! Just think of how much more research you need to do to get phased shield v! If research didn't pay off, who would do research at all?

[Suicide Junkie]

That's an IF and only IF.

So, on a sufficiently hard-to-kill vessel, the stealth armor is MORE effective than another PSG V.

Where a sufficiently tough vessel is defined as "able to survive 1300 damage worth of (non-seeker) attacks, including misses due to defensive to-hit bonuses"

In any case, the point is that Stealth armor is NOT always appropriate to use just for the 15% bonus. Adding stealth armor by default, like a bridge & lifesupport, is not the best way to go about designing warships.

[ 14 January 2002: Message edited by: suicide_junkie ]</p>

[Quikngruvn]

It could be done, making a sufficiently-hard-to-hit vessel. Stealth armor + scattering armor + ECM + vessel size + experience + racial bonus = nasty to hit.

Two problems I see, though.

One, very likely your enemies will also have combat sensors, ship and fleet experience, and racial bonus to hit.

Two, since stealth and scattering armor are armor, they're hit first. After the first good thwack which knocks down either component, your defensive bonus drops, making your ship easier to hit.

Food for thought, and will depend on who you're facing.

Quikngruvn

[Suicide Junkie]

One: That is already accounted for. "...including misses due to to-hit bonuses"

Two: Fine, make it "stealth armor able to survive ..."
Since this usually involves heavy shielding, and not armor (HP/KT rating, and all). The fact that stealth armor is armor, does not often matter.

[ 17 January 2002: Message edited by: suicide_junkie ]</p>