newby's guide to ship and fleet strategy

[Growltigga]

I think it would be dead useful if you tyros out there would set out some chapter and verse on ship and fleet strategy. By this, I do not mean preferences for design and handling of ships, I am thinking of something more practical.

I for one am confused about all the different strategy sections of the various menus - ie which one should I be using for default strategy for a fleet? what one is default strategy for a particular ship? how do I put in strategy commands for a specific battle etc.

Practical suggestions would be well useful

[Fyron]

If you have missile ship, use Max Weapons Range. Make sure to change the secondary strategy for this one from Point Blank to Optimal, cause you don't want your missile ships to be right up in the front lines.

For direct fire ships, I mostly use Short Weapons Range, or sometimes Optimal Range.

If you have Talismans, then it is usually a good idea to go with Max Weapons Range so that you can get the most out of your 100% to hit. At long ranges, your enemies will have a hard time of shooting at you, while you can't miss. This also works with Wave-Motion Guns and Anti-Matter Torpedos, cause they get natural to-hit bonuses (which you have to look in components.txt for, cause they are not listed inside the game).

If your direct fire ships get a lot of experience (as in 30 or more), then it might be a good idea to set their strategy to Max Range. Their experience will allow them to hit at longer ranges, so take advantage of this. Your enemy's ships will have a harder time hitting you, while your experienced ships will still be able to hit most of the time.

It is a good idea to change every strategy so that all vehicles break formation. This eliminates the ships scrambling into fleet formation while moving themselves out of weapons range. This also allows your ships to use their individual design strategies, instead of the generic fleet strategy. This allows for more effective combined-arms fleets, because your direct fire ships will move into range, while the missile ships will stay towards the back, removing them from the direct fire weapons of your enemies.


For a fleet with only one class of weapons, just set the fleet to the same strategy that you have the ships set to (ie Max Range for missiles or Short/Optimal for direct fire). For a combined-arms fleet, it can get trickier. If your fleet has a large majority of one type of ship, then set the fleet strategy to that of the majority. If the ratio is roughly equal, then it depends on your enemies for which strategy it is best to set it to. If the enemy uses a lot of missile ships, then you should use Short Weapons Range so that you can try to close in with the direct fire ships. If your enemy uses mostly direct fire, then set the fleet to Max Range, so that you can minimize the enemies opportunities to fire. Of course, if you set all ships to break formation, then all of this because irrelevant because your ships will use their own strategy and ignore the fleets. Of course, you need to make sure that you set every ship design's strategy in the ship design window, or else they will use Optimal Range, which could be bad.

And also, do not trust the combat simulator for how your ships will perform in real game experiences. Basically, the simulator is a POS, and it is not always accurate.


[ 14 January 2002: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]</p>

[Growltigga]

Thanks IF - useful tips there - my question however is how do you change the strategies - strategies seem to be in about 10 different places - on your ship in the design ship screen, on the empire status system and accessable by the pawn icon on the toolbar

what does what? it is confusing

[Growltigga]

actually IF, completely ignore my response below, you have explained a lot of what goes on

So if I get this right, when you design the ship, make sure you set its strategy (max for missile ships, short range/optimal for close assault types)

when you create a fleet, the strategy bit there (ie the prawn) allows you to set the limited options (formation, primary strategy and secondary strategy (what's the difference by the way)

how does the exceedingly complex strategy board in the empire status window link in to all this?

[Phoenix-D]

"how does the exceedingly complex strategy board in the empire status window link in to all this?"

That board *makes* the strategies you assign later. When you assign a fleet strategies, you can only pick formation and strategy; the "secondary strategy" bit comes from the empire status window strategy page. EDIT: And what it does is tell the ship what to do if I can't do it's primary strategy. Say you set it to "short range, Don't Get Hurt". If your ship cannot close to short range with it's target, it will run away.

So:
-the empire status window (and anything that looks like it) *creates* strategies and edits existing ones
-The strategy box in design creation assigns strategies for individual ship class
-the pawn assigns strategies for fleets, as well as formation

For mixed-ship fleets, I find the best thing to do is set them to break formation.

Phoenix-D

[ 15 January 2002: Message edited by: Phoenix-D ]</p>

[Quikngruvn]

"Break formation" is almost always better than holding formation, because of the aforemetioned problem with ships flying out of range of enemy ships to hold the formation. But, I can think of one exception, in the case of Capture Planet.

Say you have a fleet with mostly warships and a troop transport (with troops on it, naturally). The way the strategies are set up by default, the warships will pound the planet to smithereens before the troop transport will get there. So, I've changed 'Capture Planet' to (a) thwack enemies till all weapons are gone, and (b) dole out less than 100% damage on the planet. But, if the ships were set to break formation, the warships would revert back to the ship designs' default planet-pounding strategy. If the ships do not break formation from a fleet set to Capture Planet, the warships shouldn't eradicate the planet before the troop transport gets there. (At least that's been my experience.)

Tangential question: if a ship is set to break formation from a fleet, does it still get the fleet's experience bonus?

Quikngruvn

[Fyron]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Tangential question: if a ship is set to break formation from a fleet, does it still get the fleet's experience bonus?<hr></blockquote>

Yes.

[Quikngruvn]

Thanks! (Whew, for a while there I thought I was going to have to completely redo my tactics....)

Quikngruvn

[tesco samoa]

I have lost whole fleets of 30 ships because I forgot to make sure the fleet breaks formation when it meets anything.

If the leader cannot move then the fleet does not move.

Your fleet dies.

so make sure you break formation, even if it is because the fleet needs to stop for some coffee.

[Fyron]

Yeah, in my first post I said that it would be good to set all strategies to break formation a couple of times. Formations are nice for starting positions, but thats about all.

[Growltigga]

alright, cue howls of laughter and derisive comments

where the flipping nora is the break formation button - I can't find the wretched thing anywhere http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

[Gryphin]

I would make a comment but it took me 8 minutes to find it and I've been practicing with it all along.
Empire &gt; Strategies &gt; Formations &gt;
There is a list of "Types that break formation"
Choose the ones that you want to do so.
&lt; wry grin &gt; no , make that a &lt; poker face &gt;

[Quikngruvn]

Just be sure to change those settings for every strategy you plan to use (or all of 'em, to play it safe). I've been burned at least once when I changed the strategy of a fleet but forgot to make the new strategy break formation.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Quikngruvn

[Gryphin]

PsychoTechFreak,
Using standard SE IV,
Once you have clicked on Formations
You must click on each of the items you listed
You will be provided with:
Bases
Ships
Carriers
Colony Ships
Fighters
Satelights
Mines
Planets
Transports
Bases (no weapons)
Ships (no weapons)
For each strategy on the left, you can select or de-select the desired "Types That Break Formation" strategy on the right.
This is so you can customise the strategy taken based on the type of Attack Strategy you have assigned to a type of ship.
Based on earlier post, it looks like you would want to set this for each strategy.
Possibly with Kamakazi or "Capture Enemy Ships" you may want them to all move in together so they strike at the same time. I don't know if that works. I have not figured out how Mines, Planets, Bases, or Satelites break formation. Neither have I figured out if their is an advantage to it.
Good luck.
Just a thought, but why would I want to capture Allied Ships? &lt; bemused grin &gt;

[tesco samoa]

Capture AI ships and use them or take them back to be analyzed for tech.

I recommed you break formation on everything .

And all non fighting ships to ram.

Hey there only going to die anyway.

[Gryphin]

tesco, Thanks, I forgot to program in the non fighting ships RAM, but I do it in Tactical. However: in early games I have rammed Escorts and Frigates with Colony Ships and survived to actualy colonize a planet.
"It ain't over till it's Over and the crew is sucking space"
(paraphrased by Gryphin with apologies to the original author)

[PsychoTechFreak]

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif Lovely, but I still have no idea how to create the strategy "break formation". Since it does not appear with the standard strats, I would have to add it manually: "B-R-E-A-K F-O-R-M-A-T-I-O-N", but I don't think the ships would do what I want them to do.

EDIT: Got it, finally ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ 02 February 2002: Message edited by: PsychoTechFreak ]</p>

[PsychoTechFreak]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Gryphin:
I would make a comment but it took me 8 minutes to find it and I've been practicing with it all along.
Empire &gt; Strategies &gt; Formations &gt;
There is a list of "Types that break formation"
Choose the ones that you want to do so.
&lt; wry grin &gt; no , make that a &lt; poker face &gt;<hr></blockquote>

You are talking about Space Empires IV/Empire Options/Strategies/Formations, aren't you ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Ok, maybe my eyes are not opened wide enough, but I see the following strategies:

Optimal Firing Range
Don't Get Hurt
Capture Enemy Ships
Capture Planet
Fighter Attack
Kamikaze
Maximum Weapons Range
Short Weapons Range
Point Blank

That's it ! Ok, I can add a strategy, but I have to assign the movement strategy, but break formation is impossible. In the AI_strategy file I can enter a break formation, but obviously not in the game itself. Or do you use a special Mod for it ?

[Fyron]

Hmm, this doesn't seem to have been answered. Better late than never! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Growltigga:
primary strategy and secondary strategy (what's the difference by the way)
<hr></blockquote>

The primary strategy is the movement strategy that the ships normally use. When the AI determines that the primary strategy is no longer a good idea to use, it will change to the secondary movement strategy. I have no clue as to when or why the AI decides to change to the secondary movement strategy.

[PsychoTechFreak]

I have fiddled around with the strategy windows now: What if I want to have a different strategy for special targets, like planets. I want the attack ships to toast everything except the planet, this should be taken over with a troop transport (which btw should not arrive too early at the planet). For the planet they should: Damage targets until all weapons are gone (see damage window), and Damage Per cent per planet: as low as possible.

This seems to be not possible yet, except maybe if I create special ships which just target planets, and I put every other attack ship to "don't fire on planets".

EDIT: Quikngruvn 's solution with the ships do not break formation would be the only solution I see, but with the disadvantages of the formation.

[ 03 February 2002: Message edited by: PsychoTechFreak ]</p>

[PsychoTechFreak]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
.... When the AI determines that the primary strategy is no longer a good idea to use, it will change to the secondary movement strategy. I have no clue as to when or why the AI decides to change to the secondary movement strategy.<hr></blockquote>

That is what I want to know also, since I have seen many AIs which use
1. Don't get Hurt
2. Ram

Nice idea, but does it work the same way as a human would decide when he has no chance not to get hurt any more ?

[Saxon]

To add a few points about fleet composition and comment on ramming.

I like to have a fleet that can take care of itself. It seems that battles tend to be focus on single ships, so ships are usually either undamaged or destroyed. However, you will get ships left behind that have some damage and which you would prefer to recover. If they have engine damage, they will slow the entire fleet down, unless you leave them behind. I also hate it when you spend five turns getting a fleet into place, then have to fly it back after the first battle due to a lack of supplies.

As such, I always have a repair ship available. I find that this makes my fleets longer Lasting and less likely to get knocked out by scavengers coming to clean up a battered fleet. Some of the smaller hulls, from Light Cruiser up, can carry a reasonable number of repair components and will not be targeted in a fleet of larger ships.

I also tend to build specialist supply ships. I don’t like wasting precious space on solar panels, so I have big supply ships with a lot of room for supplies. These also add range and operating capacity to a fleet. As a side note, I don’t make these the biggest ship hull available, I go for second biggest. That way they fall lower in the targeting priority than the main combat ships.

On both of these, I throw in some point defence and a single weapon which matches the rest of the fleet. This is only to ensure that they are in the heart of the battle and knocking out missiles. I don’t actually expect them to kill anything, but a few extra PDC can make the difference against a missile oriented opponent.

Since these are valuable ships, I don’t ram with them. Another poster was suggesting all non-combat ships should be given ram orders, but I disagree. I can see putting a colony ship on ramming, as it might get jumped in open space and is finished no matter what, but the ships I am describing don’t go anywhere without a fleet.

Now, I have a question. Some folks like huge numbers of Light Cruisers, as they have a defensive bonus due to size. They say that you shouldn’t worry about building bigger ships. Others say that size is everything (no, the size of the ship) and that you should go as big as possible, especially for heavy mounts. I tend to follow the second argument, but would be interested in what other think should go into their fleets.

[Gryphin]

Ship Size:
I stay 2 hull sizes behind the AI. Experience has shown me 3 Frigates will out fight 2 AI Light Crusiers in Tactical Combat. When not needed in a fleet, they make good blockade ships and scouts.
I’ll do the cost analysis tonight. There may be diminishing returns depending on your play style.

Cargo Ships:
If the AI focuses on the largest hull, then one strategy may be to create cargo ships with as many containers as possible to draw fire. When available add ECM, Shields, Armor, and Point Defense Cannons should be added.
I have not tried this. It may be necessary to build it on a Non Cargo Ship hull if the AI is programmed to go after transports Last. The other advantage of this would be having the transports available as troop ships, fighter transports, and population mover when not used as a decoy. Still, I would not want to be the crew of that ship. &lt; bemused grin &gt;

[ 04 February 2002: Message edited by: Gryphin ]</p>

[PvK]

Why couldn't the leader move? Whenever I've seen the leader crippled, the fleet broke formation because of it. Or was this some sort of traffic jam problem?

Breaking formation is often good, although I've seen some good results from some formations, too.

PvK


<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by tesco samoa:
I have lost whole fleets of 30 ships because I forgot to make sure the fleet breaks formation when it meets anything.

If the leader cannot move then the fleet does not move.

Your fleet dies.

so make sure you break formation, even if it is because the fleet needs to stop for some coffee.<hr></blockquote>

[PvK]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Gryphin:
Ship Size:
I stay 2 hull sizes behind the AI. Experience has shown me 3 Frigates will out fight 2 AI Light Crusiers in Tactical Combat. When not needed in a fleet, they make good blockade ships and scouts.
I’ll do the cost analysis tonight. There may be diminishing returns depending on your play style.
<hr></blockquote>

Versus the AI using tactical combat, an experienced player generally has a steep advantage. In unmodded SEIV, usually two LC warships will have an advantage over three FF's. But human vs. AI in tactical combat is generally a larger advantage. Equipment matters too, of course.


<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
Cargo Ships:
If the AI focuses on the largest hull, then one strategy may be to create cargo ships with as many containers as possible to draw fire. When available add ECM, Shields, Armor, and Point Defense Cannons should be added.
I have not tried this. It may be necessary to build it on a Non Cargo Ship hull if the AI is programmed to go after transports Last. The other advantage of this would be having the transports available as troop ships, fighter transports, and population mover when not used as a decoy. Still, I would not want to be the crew of that ship. &lt; bemused grin &gt;
[ 04 February 2002: Message edited by: Gryphin ]<hr></blockquote>

Different AI's have different targetting priorities, especially with player-modded AI's. Building a defensive ship to soak up attacks can work unless the AI uses a different strategy (and "Largest" vs. "Most Powerful" will make a difference for the cargo ship versus a ship with fancy defenses). If you've got to this level of play, I'd recommend going to PBW with human opponents, though, and then you'll only be able to fool an observant player briefly with dedicated decoy ships. However a mix of ships with some close-range weapons and a lot of defenses set to attack at Optimal range, with ships with less defenses and more long-range firepower set to Maximum range, can be an effective mix.

PvK

[Wardad]

For unmodded SEIV, I like the Battle Cruisers. There the heaviest you can get and still have speed (six engines).

I usually use LCs. for support ships (fuel and repair). The LCs are unarmed and run for the corner during strategic combat (break formation)and are usually unharmed. The LCs are cost effective, one life support and one crew quarter. Later in the game I may use a BC with Master Computer.

I use different formations for strategic combat.
The V seems to work well for beam ships by allowing them to surround the enemy. The turbine is a good cluster strategy. I usually target: Nearest, Has weapons, Most Damaged or Fastest.
And I usually carry Engine damage and Shield depleters weapons.

I have not tried the Break Formation strategy yet. Does it only make a difference in tactical combat? To keep the game rolling and challenging I just play strategic combat.

The latest 1.49 Version seems to handle capturing planets a lot better. I think it is a coding improvement.

[Fyron]

Wardad:

Breaking formation works best in strategic combat. It eliminates the possibility for ships to fly out of firing range just to stay in formation. By breaking formation, all of your ships will get as close as possible (given thier movement strategy), giving you more shots per turn. This increases your chance to win. All else being equal, the fleet that stays in formation has a much greater chance of losing than the fleet that breaks formation.

[tesco samoa]

Ship Size:
I stay 2 hull sizes behind the AI. Experience has shown me 3 Frigates will out fight 2 AI Light Crusiers in Tactical Combat. When not needed in a fleet, they make good blockade ships and scouts.
I’ll do the cost analysis tonight. There may be diminishing returns depending on your play style.

Sounds good.

I personally like to stay even or ahead of computer ai's Since if you get used to being behind them in research and building then your chewed when it comes to pbem games

[Gryphin]

I sould modfy what I said:
I stay behind in Hull size, I always go for a lead in Reasearch.
WarDad is correct as well. When the AI gets to DN I go to Battle Crusier.

[tesco samoa]

BC's are good for scout fleets and for support ships.

Scout fleet consists of 1 scanner ship/pd ship
2 mine sweepers
1 repair/pd ship
4 pd ships
12 df ships

Built for speed and to hunt unarmed ships or damaged ships, destroy undefended planets and scout

But were talking 4th rate of the line ships

I usually have 4 of these puppies supporting a mid size fleet of 50 ships.

And 2 of the mid size fleets support a large fleet of 100 + ships

So your talking 11 fleets to take control of an area.

[Gryphin]

Frigate vs Decoy Cargo
Both Ships: Bridge, Life Support, Crew Quarters
Frigate:
SPEED - 6
DUC V - 3

Decoy Cargo (Small Size):
SPEED - 5
DUC V - 2
Cargo Holds - 8

Results:
Stratigic Combat - 70% Win for Frigate
Tatctical (on auto) - 50/50 (seemed to depend on who scored first hit)
Notes:
In all cases the "victor" was severly damaged
Ships (on auto), fought at point blank range)
The both ships set to ram if out of weapons. The setting seemed to even the odds in tactical)
My Thoughts:
I think less powerful weapons would have been to the Decoys advantage.
The Decoy is good if you want a ship to draw fire, have it available for troop or population movement.
Are willing to pay the extra $1000 mineral cost to build and the exttra maintenance per turn.
Dicey at best
Enjoy

[ 05 February 2002: Message edited by: Gryphin ]

[ 05 February 2002: Message edited by: Gryphin ]</p>

[mac5732]

I use something similiar to TS, I also love the BCs, They're like the old sailing frigates of yesteryear, strong enough to do some damage, but fast enough to outrun anything bigger.

I usually make up raiding fleets made up of cloaked BCs. Make up is usually 5-10. 3 with heavy (by heavy I meant maxed out mounts) type beam weapons, 2 loaded with missles for planet bashing, 2 strictly pds for aa fire, the rest with various combos depending if/what advance trait I take. Use them for raiding behind the lines, glazing weaker planets, picking off single or small enemy fleets, causes your opponet to build or send fleets to either protect their systems or for search and destroy taking them out of the main line. The number of raider fleets depends on strategic situation.

I also use Torpedos (in fact like them better then msls) and always put some on my killer ships

just some ideas mac

[ 11 February 2002: Message edited by: mac5732 ]

[ 11 February 2002: Message edited by: mac5732 ]</p>

[Gryphin]

Decoy Transports Revisted
I played close to 100 turns with the Decoy Transports decribed below. They proved to be useless except as troop and population transports.
There are two down sides to the armed transport:
They cost more
There is a chance at 1:00 in the morning you will move the ship up to an undefended planet and click on the planet. That will cause the Transport to fire on the planet and kill off population.
The best troop transport design for my style of play is:
Build at least two per race you are at war with
Build them on a Destroyer hull
Make them as fast as the rest of the fleet
Try to research Cargo to increase the troop capacity.
Two fully loaded "DD Troop" ships should be enough to capture and occupiy the planets of at least 3, and possilbly more solar systems.
The first chance I get, I will build a pair Speed 12 Troop ships to move troops and population from inner colonies to the front lines.
Just my style, I hope Tig is making notes.

[Wardad]

STALL the enemy! It is a tactic that is not talked about often enough. Every newbie should learn it.
In business Time is money, but in war and comedy timing is everthing.

It was still early in the game, I had just over-expanded into the #1 spot. The AIs were all out to get me. Could I hold the choke point to three juicy systems from from my center? Can I tie up that huge battle fleet until help could be built and arrive?
It was a hard fight. Some planets were glassed. But the enemy could never recover from the losses and delays.Help was just next door now.

STALL the enemy.
1. Mines, with five mines I made them take five turns to reach my planet. I layed one per sector.
Why let them go back for fuel and repairs unharrassed? I got a cloaked mine layer in there and shotgunned more mines around.
2. I had transports in nearby systems and refinforced my populations to take a pounding and repell troops.
3.Build WPs as quickly as possible. Also send or build troops to pacify your population. Just try to hold out and make it cost!
3. Use Engine damage weapons, even in WPs. Maybe you can't kill it, but it will take a long time to limp home.
4. Kill or damage the straglers. Pick them off one by one if you can. Stealth helps.

[PvK]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Gryphin:
Frigate vs Decoy Cargo
...
Results:
Stratigic Combat - 70% Win for Frigate
Tatctical (on auto) - 50/50 (seemed to depend on who scored first hit)
...<hr></blockquote>


Why would there be any difference between strategic and tactical on auto? Should be the same thing, no?

PvK

[Gryphin]

PvK,
I thought it should be the same as well. I do intend to try other combinations as well.
I'll post it here.

[oleg]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Gryphin:
Decoy Transports Revisted
I played close to 100 turns with the Decoy Transports decribed below. They proved to be useless except as troop and population transports.<hr></blockquote>

The best "decoy transport" IMO, is a light carrier. I usually research fighter before destroyers. The size 800 gives the Heavy Mount modification, which is deadly against early game ships like destroyers or even cruisers. Light carrier with minium required number of fighter bays (14) still has 380 K to fit in weapons and other battle equipment. After launching fighters, carriers are instructed to follow them and fight like regular ships. Fighter bays provide a good "decoy armor" and give a vital extra protection while heavy mounted weapons and fighters pulverize enemy. I seldom build destroyers and light cruisers. Multi-purpose carriers make up the bulk of my fleets. Besides, it reminds me the cool battle scenes from Babylon 5.

[Gryphin]

oleg, I owe ya one. If you are ever in Boston, the drinks are on me.
Thanks

[Growltigga]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Gryphin:
oleg, I owe ya one. If you are ever in Boston, the drinks are on me.
Thanks<hr></blockquote>

Oleg, at the rate Gryphin is dishing out the hospitality, let's go to Boston together, we could bankrupt him http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

Do any of you guys know how I can get a capture ship to ATTACK a target until the shields are down, then capture?

I just had a fleet of capture ships run to a corner (shot at the enemy as they went by), then, when the warships fought, the capture ships jumped back and forth:
"Hey, theres one without shields to capture"
"Oh, wait, they regenerated 5 points, nevermind"

Obviously the secondary strat of "Optimal weapons range" isn't being used when there are no shieldless ships for the primary strat "board ships".

[Phoenix-D]

Try reversing- Optimal Weapons range as primary, board as secondary. I also heard this had been improved in Gold?

Phoenix-D

[Mephisto]

Reversing doesn't solve the problem. It is just an bug and already fixed in GOLD. So wait for it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Grandpa Kim]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by tesco samoa:

I usually have 4 of these puppies supporting a mid size fleet of 50 ships.

And 2 of the mid size fleets support a large fleet of 100 + ships

So your talking 11 fleets to take control of an area.<hr></blockquote>

Must be a ***** to implement when a game only allows 200 or 300 ships. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[dumbluck]

SJ:
If I remember correctly, someone on this forum somewhere (don't you just love how specific my answers are?) had decent luck with ship/planet captures. The way they did it was to set the fleet strategy to the corresponding "Capture" strategy and set the ships to NOT break formation. That way, they all follow the fleet strategy. You also might have to give the capture ships a weapon (not sure on that one though, see below). I can't remember what they set the secondary fleet strategy to, but the general Idea was that every turn (or whatever frequency it occures at), the AI attempts it's primary strategy and tries to capture. If it can't, it reverts to the secondary strategy and proceeds to pound on the target. This cycle repeats until the primary strategy can be achieved (by the capture ships, anyway); at which point they rush in to attempt the capture.

You might have to give the capture ships a weapon (I think shield depleters were the favorite) so that the they will stay close to the combat and be in range to attempt the capture. Any ship without weapons automatically reverts to "Don't get hurt", IIRC. The same problem exists for PDC support ships. PDC isn't considered a weapon, so without a weapon thrown in, they just run for the corners. However, I think that the "don't break formation" overrides this, and the capture ships stay in formation anyway. I can't remember for sure, but this shouldn't be hard to test for yourself, anyway. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Note: If this works for capture ships, it should also work for PDC ships. IIRC, there are two entries for ships in the break formation menu: with weapons and without. So theoretically, you could set the ships with weapons to break formation, but the ones without weapons to stay in formation with the leader. (I think the leader has to stay in formation as well, so you may have to set a PDC or Capture ship as the fleet leader. Or I suppose you could make the repair or supply tender the leader, although I don't see why you would want to.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif )

Anyway, that's just my overpriced $0.02...

[Grandpa Kim]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by dumbluck:

Any ship without weapons automatically reverts to "Don't get hurt"

PDC isn't considered a weapon, so without a weapon thrown in, they just run for the corners.<hr></blockquote>

Can someone confirm this? If true, I gotta make some changes!!! Actually, I'm beginning to see ways to take advantage of these oddities.
Could it be that shield depleters are not considered weapons as well? That could be why boarding ships run for the corners.

[PvK]

In the case of both PDC and Shield Depleters, they are BOTH weapons, but if there are no targets they can hurt, and the ships have no weapons that have any targets, then the ships move to corners.

PvK

[dumbluck]

PvK:
Are you sure???? I thought it was a well established fact that PDC were not weapons. For instance, it explains why they aren't affected by the default weapons mounts. Other weapons get damage bonuses with the mounts, while PDC damage stays the same, and isn't even listed in the ship creation screen as being altered by the mount (while all the weapons get the little "L" in their picture for Large mount, etc.).

As to the shield depleters, I don't know. I've never used them.

[ 18 February 2002: Message edited by: dumbluck ]</p>

[Grandpa Kim]

Now here's a couple things that have been bothering me.

If a ship is set to say, "short weapons range" with secondary at "point blank" will it fire at all if it is currently at maximum range (with no move points left)?

Similarly if the type priority is set to "ships" as the first priority, will it bypass bases, satelites etc. without firing, to get to a ship?

Oops, one more. Which takes priority, "targeting priority" or "type priority"?

[tesco samoa]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by tesco samoa:

I usually have 4 of these puppies supporting a mid size fleet of 50 ships.
And 2 of the mid size fleets support a large fleet of 100 + ships

So your talking 11 fleets to take control of an area.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Must be a ***** to implement when a game only allows 200 or 300 ships.


Nah I just downsize everything.... or something.

I have never played a game with the limiting factor 200 or 300 on ships and bases.

I follow the school of if you can support it you should be able to build it.

[tesco samoa]

Ships will fire all weapons when they are in range.

ON the second question. They will fire at their primary target if they are in range else they will shoot at whats next on the list until there is nothing to shoot at.

On the 3rd question I believe it is Type priority But I could be wrong here.

Dumbluck.

PDC's are not weapons in the 1.49 world

The Large mounts etc... only apply to direct fire weapons.

One thing I love is the fact that armor skipping weapons will destroy armor after there is nothing left on the enemy ship except armor.

I believe that is a bug.

[Wardad]

I have had some good luck with Capture Planet.
I used the Capture Planet fleet strategy and played Strategic Combat. I used the default setting for ships breaking formation. The formation is usually a V.
The transports are unarmed, except for PD sometimes. They have excellent ECM, armor, and shields, and can lay a spy sat.
During combat (replay) the transports just hang back until the armed ships are done, and then rush in.
A small pop planet may get glassed before the attackers are done, but sometimes it can be managed by dropping the fleet size before invasion. Anyway, I glassed more planets by forgetting to load the troops back onto the transport the turn before.
The Max damage setting may help. I'm at the office now nd don't remember what that is set to. Generally it controls targetting order. With only one target, it may not help.

[capnq]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Which takes priority, "targeting priority" or "type priority"? <hr></blockquote>There's a toggle for setting which one comes first, on the same screen where you set the Firing priorities.

IIRC the default is targeting before type.

[ 18 February 2002: Message edited by: capnq ]</p>

[Grandpa Kim]

Movement Strategies
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:

1. Don't get Hurt
2. Ram

Nice idea, but does it work the same way as a human would decide when he has no chance not to get hurt any more ?<hr></blockquote>

This decidedly does NOT work! In one case the ship just shuttled around in the corner while happily taking taking fire; in another the ship was hemmed in by attackers, completely unable to move. In neither case would the ship ram. My best guess (acknowledging that I don't know which components were destroyed) is that the ship will stick to "Don't get hurt" for as long as it has engines. When the engines are destroyed it reverts to the the secondary strategy...

"Engine room? This is the captain. I've had enough of this sh**! Full speed ahead; we're going to ram the SOB!"
"Uh, sure skipper. I'll just push this scrap iron, that used to be our engines, out the stern. That should give us a little momentum."

... I love this game, but I gotta say it: Not a lot of thought when into this bit of code.

[Grandpa Kim]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Wardad:

STALL the enemy.
1. Mines, with five mines I made them take five turns to reach my planet. I layed one per sector.
<hr></blockquote>

Will this work the same way against a human opponent? I don't think so. Anyone know for sure?

[PsychoTechFreak]

1. Don't get Hurt
2. Ram

It is just a guess but maybe the kamikaze strategy just works if you load at least one warhead ?

Now, to something different:
Has anybody checked out the "until all weapons gone" button ? In many of my simulations, my fleets have done a better job with this button checked. First they knock out the weapons and then they sweep the battlefield from the wracks.

[TerranC]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
1. Don't get Hurt
2. Ram
<hr></blockquote>

hmm...
Wouldnt that contradict itself? Maybe cause the ship to jerk in one place and let the other ship kill it?

[Phoenix-D]

"Will this work the same way against a human opponent? I don't think so. Anyone know for sure?"

Won't STOP them, not if they're willing to take losses (and even a single minesweeper makes this idea worthless) but mines are nothing to sneeze at.

The only hitch I can see is if ships automaticlly stop after hitting mines. Even then, with only 5 mines you can't possibly cover every approach route.

Phoenix-D

[Grandpa Kim]

Regarding
1. Don't get hurt.
2. Ram.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TerranC:


hmm...
Wouldnt that contradict itself? Maybe cause the ship to jerk in one place and let the other ship kill it?<hr></blockquote>

No contradiction to a computer. The two orders are mutually exclusive. Once the computer determines that the first won't work, it moves on to "Ram", completely forgeting about "Don't get hurt". If it survives, then on the next combat turn it starts over with "Don't get hurt" and the process repeats. At least that's the way it should work, in fact, that is pretty much the way it is described. The real problem is when does the computer determine that "Don't get hurt" isn't working?


Phoenix-D
I agree with you, but I haven't played enough PBW yet to be sure. For now I will operate on the premise that minefield will not stop a determined human opponent.

[ 25 February 2002: Message edited by: Grandpakim ]</p>

[PsychoTechFreak]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Grandpakim:
Regarding
1. Don't get hurt.
2. Ram.



... The real problem is when does the computer determine that "Don't get hurt" isn't working?


<hr></blockquote>

In fact it doesn't work. My favorite Ram ship design (recently) is a ship full of organic armor 3 which is almost indestructable. It does not go over to ram strategy even when it is trapped in a corner.

But I have not found a strategy setting so far which rams colony ships or planets, both without weapons, no chance. Tried almost every possible targeting prio. My organic goat ship destroys every other ship (with weapons) though.

[PvK]

I meant PDC are weapons for purposes of AI maneuver. I am confident that I have seen PDC-only ships retreat while valid PDC targets were absent, and then advance as soon as valid PDC targets were launched by the enemy. You're right about them not being eligible for main weapon mounts.

PvK

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by dumbluck:
PvK:
Are you sure???? I thought it was a well established fact that PDC were not weapons. For instance, it explains why they aren't affected by the default weapons mounts. Other weapons get damage bonuses with the mounts, while PDC damage stays the same, and isn't even listed in the ship creation screen as being altered by the mount (while all the weapons get the little "L" in their picture for Large mount, etc.).

As to the shield depleters, I don't know. I've never used them.

[ 18 February 2002: Message edited by: dumbluck ]<hr></blockquote>

[dumbluck]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by PvK:
I meant PDC are weapons for purposes of AI maneuver. I am confident that I have seen PDC-only ships retreat while valid PDC targets were absent, and then advance as soon as valid PDC targets were launched by the enemy. You're right about them not being eligible for main weapon mounts.

PvK

<hr></blockquote>
You may be right about that. Without valid targets, the PD cruisers would default to "don't get hurt". I guess I never paid attention to whether they tried to come out of their corners for a turn whilst my front line ships got pounded by the missles that the PD cruisers were out of range of (because they ran for the corners).

And that is the crux of the problem. Unless your enemy has either fighters or some of the upper-upper-tier missle tech weapons, there aren't going to be any valid PDC targets on turn 1. Or turn 2, or 3, or 4, or 5, or 6. And by that time, your PD cruiser is hiding in a corner where it will do your front line ships absolutely no good.

I will have to test that in a game sometime. If I set the strategy for weaponless ships to hold formation, and the PD cruisers break formation anyway, we will know that PDC are considered weapons. If they hold formation, then they aren't weapons. The concensus of the forums till now has been that PDC aren't weapons, but you have brought up an interesting point.

[ 26 February 2002: Message edited by: dumbluck ]</p>

[Gryphin]

As much as I like "specialty" ships like an "Aegis" PDC Crusier, I have taken to putting 3 or more PDC on most front line ships. If I am in a two front war and one race does not use suitable targets for a PDC, I create an apropriate Front Line Ship for that front. I don't like it, but to hard code a suitable behavior for this situation would probably cost too much.

[Gryphin]

GUTB, I'll try that. In general I find "Finesse, not Force" will carry the day, but that is more against humans. The AI in Stratiec mode may not appricate finess. An interesting almost disturbing thought.

[Growltigga]

GUTB, good design but are you missing the point on this? even my inexperience at this game shows that there is no right or wrong method of ship design.

Your design will work fine against the AI but apologies if I say it doesn't take rocket science to design a mean close assault vessel or something the AI finds hard to handle.

You will have problems against human players with this design. Sure, your ships will be unpleasant in a furball but I can already think of quite a few ways I would give any fleet of these ships a nasty surprise

I am playing a hot seat game against my friend Khanuk. He developed and built a very similar design of gunboat based on an escort hull. True, the first few battles were horrible from my point of view as 40 or 50 of these gunboats bLasted my fleets apart but then, massed fighter strikes, long range weapons fire, mines, swamping attacks, hit and run attacks, APB armed and heavily armoured battlecruisers etc blew him away and then some

the point of this game is that no design is perfect and nearly everything has a counter. Think of it as a game of scissors, paper, stone

[tesco samoa]

Hey GUTB what is your starting point for your system.

Are we talking 3 planets mid tech high resources etc...

[Phoenix-D]

"After twenty or so turns of a game, how are you supposed to defend againt an enemy that shows up to combat with 45 advanced guns?"

DUCs are hardly "advanced guns"

And I'd say a buffer zone of weapons platforms, fighters, and/or mines would do the trick. You'd taking a long time to build this force- which means that the begining units will be obselte by the time you attack. Plus they don't seem to have any combat sensors, ECM, or defenses.. which means any ship that DOES have those is going to cream them. I once had a ship that killed twenty AI ships with no damage to itself.. all because the AI ships had no combat sensors or ECM.

EDIT: Oh yeah, how are you paying for this again?

Phoenix-D

[ 26 February 2002: Message edited by: Phoenix-D ]</p>

[Bman]

If you place a single "normal" weapon on your PDC ship then it will stay in the thick of battle instead of hiding in the corner waiting for missiles to be launched. It makes them *much* more effective. In the later techs, I found a nice combination for a PDC ship is: a whole bunch of PDC followed by 2 warp-weapons. You need 2 warp-weapons since they have a rate-of-fire of 2. The warp-weapons keep them with your main fleet since they will want to use them on the enemy ships. But where it is really cool is if there is a large fighter stack, the PDC will chop it down and when it runs out, then warp-weapon will zap the fighter stack across the screen again.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Gryphin:
As much as I like "specialty" ships like an "Aegis" PDC Crusier, I have taken to putting 3 or more PDC on most front line ships. If I am in a two front war and one race does not use suitable targets for a PDC, I create an apropriate Front Line Ship for that front. I don't like it, but to hard code a suitable behavior for this situation would probably cost too much.<hr></blockquote>

[Gryphin]

Bman,
Slick idea. Great, now I have to study up on warp weapons. * sigh * another tech tree to learn.
Thanks for the idea.

[GUTB]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
DUCs are hardly "advanced guns"
<hr></blockquote>
They certainly are only 20 turns from the start of a game starting at low tech.

If you want to wait hundreds of turns to fight my swarm, you are out of luck. The point is that you will be swarmed to oblivion long, long before you get fighters or advanced missiles, etc.

If they game happens to be at that level of tech. Add a PD and ECM. You are dead.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
And I'd say a buffer zone of weapons platforms, fighters, and/or mines would do the trick. You'd taking a long time to build this force- which means that the begining units will be obselte by the time you attack.
<hr></blockquote>
And how many mines and weapons platforms (that can do jack all) can you get at the START of the game after twenty turns WITH LOW TECH AND ONE PLANET?

It's amusing listening to all the knee-jerk defending of this or that favorite pet strategy or tech combo. I don't care if you have this many cruisers with sheilds, that many missiles or how you strategically manuever your carriers. They are all DEAD before my massive armada.

OVERWHELMING FORCE. Brutal, direct, unsurmountable FORCE. Forget sheilds, armor, missiles, surface bombs, raming warheads and other nonsense that others play with. You have to have PD and ECM because fighters/missiles can be savage without them -- BUT WITH THEM YOU WILL UTTERLY BRUTALIZE FIGHTERS AND MISSILES. I give a big bonus to reasearch and lower maintenece because this gives me MORE force, EARLIER. I cannibilize other useless traits like strength and savvy.

I never use anything but the escort hull, so my entire fleet can be upgraded only after a few turns.

[ 26 February 2002: Message edited by: GUTB ]</p>

[Quikngruvn]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:

In fact it doesn't work. My favorite Ram ship design (recently) is a ship full of organic armor 3 which is almost indestructable. It does not go over to ram strategy even when it is trapped in a corner.
<hr></blockquote>

Mine own (limited) observation with kamikaze ships: in desperation, I designed and built several destroyers with a couple of warheads, and set primary and secondary strategies to Ram. Most of the time they just danced around... until my other ships finally knocked down the shields of an enemy ship. Then the kamikaze ships rammed like there was no tomorrow (which, as it turned out, there wasn't!).

So I think a ramming ship will not ram a ship with shields. I have not tested this, but it is food for thought....

One other thought about the 'killer escorts'... with three engines per ship, looks like you'll have speed and supply issues. More specifically, a lack of both. But it definitely would make for a nasty early defensive fleet....

Quikngruvn

[PsychoTechFreak]

Hear, hear, another awe-inspiring strategy comes up.

We iz gonna stomp da 'ooniverse flat an' kill anyfing that fights back. We iz gonna do this coz' we're Orks an' we was made ta fight an' win.
Orkses is never beaten in battle. If we win we win, if we die we die so it don't count as beat. if we runs fer it we don't die neither, so we can always come back for anuvver go, see!

(Ork speech files)

EDIT: Sorry, Quik. I meant the post before yours.

[ 26 February 2002: Message edited by: PsychoTechFreak ]</p>

[PsychoTechFreak]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Quikngruvn:
[QB]

So I think a ramming ship will not ram a ship with shields. I have not tested this, but it is food for thought.... <hr></blockquote>

Ships full with organic armor don't care about shields from my observations. I have not tried the warheads so far, maybe the behaviour of the ram ships depends on the prospect of survival ? I think the calculation could be something about a comparison of the damage resistances. The only problem in strategic combat is, they do not ram colony ships, planets and maybe some more.

[ 27 February 2002: Message edited by: PsychoTechFreak ]</p>

[Phoenix-D]

"OVERWHELMING FORCE. Brutal, direct, unsurmountable FORCE."

I really do hate to break it to you, but it's not overwhelming. One planet. 15 weapons platforms armed with 2 CSM1, 3 DUC I. More often than not, those WPs smash the attacking fleet- 15 of your assult escorts armed with DUC IVs- flat. Oh, and they build FASTER than your ships, which means there will be more of them (except on small, outlying colony worlds).

I did a test scenerio.
Settings: 2000 racial points, no advanced trait. Maxed maintance reduction, high research bonus, enchanced minerals and construction. Low tech start, one planet.

Built two bases, then started cranking out ships.
Turn 1.1: DUC II attack ships finished, supply ships finished. Retrofit begings to DUCIII.
1.5: retrofit complete

Now, at this point finances are OK, so it looks like paying for the ships is not a problem. However, you have no idea where the nearest empire is. I assumed the nearest empire would be in the second habitable system I found. Time of arrival: 2.5.

OK. So let's assume there's another empire out there in a more defensive posture, and you find him. He uses the same racial stats as you. Assuming he built two construction bases, used those to expand, and turned his homeworld to building WPs, he has twenty-one WPs before you even launch your fleet. Then his homeworld slows down (emergancy build expires).

He continues to expand.

On the turn you launch your fleet, he has:
4 colonies, 3 with 4 WPs each
21 WPs on his homeworld
And a scout ship already out.

By the time your slow attack fleet arrives, it's already dead.. it just doesn't know it yet.

Oh, and speed 6 CSMI armed ships will tear apart your assult ships quite easily, if he went for ships instead of weapon platforms.

EDIT: heh. I just did a test- took your assult ship design armed with DUCVs against a CSMI armed speed 6 ship. Both escorts. One side had 15 ships (DUC) the other 13 (CSM).

I've been running it through SE4's simulator, and the DUC ships have yet to win. Best they've managed to do is kill 3 of the other ships for a loss of 6 of their own. Often they are wiped out without killing a single CSM ship. That's with tech AND numbers on the side of the DUC ships!

EDIT2: Shield 1, Combat Sensor 1 ECM 1 DUC I speed three light cruisers fare much worse- about the same as the DUC escorts vs the CSM escorts. But replace those DUCs with CSM1, and again the balance shifts. Four light cruisers can kill 15 assult escorts. The light cruisers take a little more research, but much much less cash.

But hey, let's not talk theory too much http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . Up for a game?

EDIT2: I'd propose the PBW server's Universe Cup map for this. Two players, no AI, 2000 points, one starting planet, low tech.

Phoenix-D

[ 26 February 2002: Message edited by: Phoenix-D ]</p>

[tesco samoa]

And another factor in this test is the distance between the homeworlds. So I guess were talking small map.

moves 3 squares per turn. SO that's 4 turns per system. So this fleet at turn 12 to turn 16 will leave its homeworld and travel for at least one turn out of its homeworld system. Stop at the warp point. so now were at turn 14. turn 15 to turn 19 travelling across the next system. Turn 20 to turn 24 the next system. And turn 24 to turn 28 on the next system. So if your lucky you might meet some one on turn 29 if not anoter 4 turns go by and your fleet is starting to get low on supplies. ( And this stuff might take a few turns to start if your fleet is retrofitting slowly so lets say you start this adventure on turn 20 ) and what do you get rid of to fit the ecm and pd's escorts have a 150 kt size.

A few destroyers with capital ship missle level one set at max range would clobber you. Or 10 mines at a warp point.

How about a base yard with 50 kt on vech control and the rest on missles (9) of these would end your fleet.

Or 1 planet 10 swp with 10k on command and 3 missles and 1 pd or level 1 duc with 2 base yards over top.

The fleet dies every time. Their too slow. Combat speed of 2.

And all that can be build easily before turn 20. With 2 space yards out there.

Can you post the results from your testing ??

Perhaps we can learn off each other here.

And the PD with the warp weapon. That is classic.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

I will be using that one. I always used them with tractor beams and nul's or ppb's and then the warp weapons ( in that order, you can really tick someone off that way). But the PD -warp combo is classic.

Learn something new every day

[PsychoTechFreak]

I remember, one of the TDM races has got a PDC strategy, I will take a look into the ai files tonight. Maybe Romulans, Klingons or Drakol.

[GUTB]

All you guys are missing the boat on this one.

Killer strategy for ship design:

Escort. As much beam firepower as you can fit. For instance, early game get an escort with:

x3 engines
x3 cannons

If you give a significant bonus to research in your racial points, you will literally have upgradeded cannon tech in one turn. What I did was give a sigificant bonus to research and a huge bonus to lower maintenence. You have to be smart to work the game system, foklks. And I made my people hard workers.

Step two, build a space yard base or two (with my stats it took one turn for each one) and start pumping these escorts out ( I call them Assault) with emergency build. Once you have 12-15 of these, build 4-6 supply ships. Once you're done with that, you will have several upgraded levels of cannons. Retrofit.

There you go, a force that cream anything in battle at this stage of the game. You don't even have to run tactical combat, the firepower is so overwhelming none of yoru ships is in danger of really dying.

Once you get repair bays, send these ships along with the fleet to give them staying power. You will defeat any player, AI or human this way.

After twenty or so turns of a game, how are you supposed to defend againt an enemy that shows up to combat with 45 advanced guns? In ONE combat turn with several of such assault vessels hammering a frigate it will be killed or near-dead. Even a cruiser will be severaly damaged in ONE turn, in which it only manages to severally damage or kill one of your many ships. Of course, the next turn it has a only a few guns left so it's effectiveness is basically nill. In the twenty or so turns it took to build this fleet, you would NEVER EVER be able to build a fleet of larger ships that have the same level of firepower and overal effectiveness.

Too many people bother with nonsense that doesn't matter, like armor, sheilds, engines, etc. Guys get with the program. THIS is the ultimate forumla for ship design:

0. ESCORT full size
1. MINIMUM crew facilities
2. Three engines
3. Three rail guns
4. ECM (when you're advanced enough to fit it)
5. Point-defenses (when your're advanced enough to fit it)

You might ask why ECM and PD and not another gun. That's because they actually make a difference. Avoiding being hit makes yoru fleet overall more effective overall, AND you have to have space for PD, which is extremely important to have once the enemy starts going wild on missiles. A swarm of assault vessels with PDs will massacre to death ANY missiles or fighters.

[dumbluck]

What warp weapon? Do you mean the repulsor beam? Am I missing something here? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

The wormhole/warppoint beam. It moves the target to a random (unoccupied) square, anywhere on the combat map. Usually more effective than a repulsor beam, although it sometimes makes the situation worse http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif .

[tesco samoa]

Hey GUTB where did you go...???

[oleg]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by tesco samoa:
Hey GUTB where did you go...???<hr></blockquote>

He is still driving his mighty armada at 3 miles per month along the interstellar highway bypass and will be arriving shortly http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Gryphin]

oleg,
Now that you mentioned it, I saw on in the Intergalactic Daily Tribune Harald in the "Incedents Report" that his slow speed caused a pile up in a warp point and has been sent to ship design school.

(I'm only joking)

[LGM]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Phoenix-D:


"OVERWHELMING FORCE. Brutal, direct, unsurmountable FORCE."

[ 26 February 2002: Message edited by: Phoenix-D ]<hr></blockquote>

My response to both GUTB and Phoenix-D is that the strategy of creating a massive, cheap swarm early on and building tones of Weapon Platforms to defend against it is bad while the rest of the universe is developing and expanding normally. If a player spends his first 20 turns building a war fleet in a multiplayer game, he may trash the first player he meets, but he is not colonizing anything, so his power base is not growing. The goal these games is to expand and grow. A player who spends all his resources defending against an early swarm is also seriously set back. In a two player game this strategy might work in a very small universe. I hope someone tries this against me in the Universe Cup. But in that map, the two players start 7 systems apart, but two of the lings would be two turns apart as they are on the same side of the map. I think the home worlds would be 9 turns part. By turn 29, I expect to have Minefields which are the best way to stop an early game hoard. Once minefields enter play, offensive efforts usually shut down for a while while everyone builds massive Mineclearing fleets. A typical planet can build 10 cheap minefields a turn. A mine sweeper with 5 sweaping components will need level 2 to clear one turns worth. The player who build the awful swarm will no research colonies to research Mine tech 2, 3, etc, to keep up with minefield building.

I used to advocate playing with no minefields, but I guess without them early swarms would be hard to handle. Of cource in a multi-player game, I would just find a new game if I ended up being ambushed by a early swarm, knowing that they would not survive long. I would join a new game and hope to start in a better neighborhood.

[Phoenix-D]

Question- did you actually read my post? I wasn't defending his strategy, I was ripping it in half! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Please don't quote me quoting someone else unless you include my response.

"I used to advocate playing with no minefields, but I guess without them early swarms would be hard to handle."

It's handleable. WPs are the cheapest alternative. You might loose a colony or two, maybe a some minor damage to your homeworld, but if he hasn't been expanding and the attack fleet gets fried, he just wasted a LOT of time and effort.

The WPs are also cheaper to build, so you can have more of them per the same time period. And it doesn't take more to kill the offensive he described. Hell, even speed 6 CSMI ships will do- one of them can kill 3-4 of his "assult ships" if you remeber to select max range.

Phoenix-D

[GUTB]

UPDATE:

It seems I have overlooked a major flaw in my Great Armada fleet model. That is, I forgot about Crystaline Armor.

Malfor's Holy Chain Mail of Invunerablity, also sometimes known as Crystaline Armor, or CA for short, demands some changes in the design take place.

10 destroyers with x4 DUCs and x4 CAs show in simulation to ALWAYS beat 20 escorts with x3 DUCs, despite the fact that the escort fleet out-guns the destroyer fleet on a ratio of 1.5-to-1 for the same amount of tonnage.

I then made a more balanced destroyer design with x3 DUCs, x3 CAs, and put in a aux. bridge and a Capital Ship Missile to give that long-range punch, and matched them up in a fair 10-against-10 match -- the balanced design LOSSES EVERY TIME.

I then made a destroyer with x8 DUCs, and pitted them up with my original destoryer configuration. THEY PROCEED TO BE ANNHILIATED, despite having TWICE the firepower.

And then finally, I pitted the x8 DUC destroyer against my original escort design of x3 DUCs with a 2-to-1 favor for the escorts so tonnage in completely equal. THE ESCORTS HAVE A FEILD DAY WITH THE DESTROYERS despite costing a little bit more in total and having less less total firepower.

So what gives? Simple: CA is unbeatable early-game. Let's examine it; sure it weighs x3 times as much as standard Walmart armor, but the very first level gives you 100kt damage. So with four of these CAs, you have 400kt damage absorbtion. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT EARLY GAME. So in a fleet of 10 Crystal Assault destroyers, you must poor 4000kt woth of damage into them before they start taking damage. So, in one comabt turn, my fleet can take 4000kt before EVEN BEING DMANAGED. SO take your "balanced" approach and chuck a few capital missiles and try to fight "smart". Unless you have CAs like me, you are DEAD. And if I go really all-out, figure I can have a fleet of 15 CA Destroyers + support ships in twenty turns. This si made possible by canibalizing everything for 150% research and 150% construction aptitude.

And once I get shieilds -- FEAR.

So, supreme firepower is still supreme -- it's jsut that you have to take into account the WONDERFUL MAGICAL POWER OF CA.

[Suicide Junkie]

Woah, there.
Your simulations seem to be very biased! You've got battles with armor vs no protection!

Compare CA to the Walmart armor.
CA 1: 100hp in 30KT.
WA 1: 90hp in 30KT.
WA 2: 105hp in 30KT.
WA 3: 120hp in 30KT.

Get regular armor for a fraction of the research cost, and get way more hitpoints!

Crystalline armor's advantage only appears once you've got at least one shield generator in the mix, to make use of the crystalline effect.

[Phoenix-D]

As long as you're talking armor, try Organic. Organic armor w/ no weapons ships make really handy battering rams. That extra research cost really kills the "rush" idea though.

"SO take your "balanced" approach and chuck a few capital missiles and try to fight "smart"."

Heh. Screw the balanced approach, it's not a good idea. Specialization. Just ran a test. 10 destroyers armed with 4 CSMI, speed 6, destroys your "uber crystal" ships almost 100% of the time. Most of the time they don't even loose a ship doing it! And these ships can be built much sooner than your destroyers.

Phoenix-D

[Phoenix-D]

"comabt turn, my fleet can take 4000kt before EVEN BEING DMANAGED."

Wrong. Your fleet can take *100kt* of damage before being hurt. Then you start loosing armor. Once you've taken 400kt of damage, you start loosing internal components. Your fleet isn't just one big ship!

Phoenix-D

[tesco samoa]

and if your enemy always attacks with lots of armor and shilds then a lovely super sized null should clean up that mess...... Or the often over looked temporal weapons.....

[Phoenix-D]

His attack would be too early in the game for null-space. Besides, why waste the cash when CSMI ships can bLast the attacks away until he gets PD?

EDIT: If you're speaking in general, yeah. null-space really shines when you're attacking heavily-defended targets.

Phoenix-D

[ 03 March 2002: Message edited by: Phoenix-D ]</p>

[oleg]

The best way to handle crystalline armor is PPB.
Untill the guy with crystalline armor gets phased shields (looong way to research), crystalline effect gives no protection whatsoever.

I almost always finish physics I + physics II before turn 20.

[Suicide Junkie]

Missiles are good too, since all of them stack into one hit.

5 CSM 1's do 375 damage: you'd need 750KT of crystalline armor III's, plus 400 shield points to defend against that.

And by the time you've got that defensive tech (Dreadnaughts, Crystal 3, shields x), your opponent will have reached bigger missiles http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[LGM]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
"comabt turn, my fleet can take 4000kt before EVEN BEING DMANAGED."

Wrong. Your fleet can take *100kt* of damage before being hurt. Then you start loosing armor. Once you've taken 400kt of damage, you start loosing internal components. Your fleet isn't just one big ship!

Phoenix-D<hr></blockquote>


GUTB,

Phoenix-D is right, unless you had your targeting options to have something odd like least damaged. Normally, I target ships with Has Weapons, Nearest (better to hit), Biggest (better to hit), Most Damaged. But you may want to go with Has Weapons, Most Damaged, Nearest, Biggest to make sure you keep working on a ship that has damaged armor so you do not spread the damage around.

With that strategy, a ship will be targetted until it cannot shoot any longer. Focus first on the ships that can harm you. Even if you lose, they have to pay maintenance on the crippled ones and your early hoard is not likeley to have any repair ships near by.

[ 04 March 2002: Message edited by: LGM ]</p>

[Zarix]

Attacking with Planetary Napalm would be devastating to Phoenix-Ds WP strategy. But the downside is that the Planetary Napalm ships would need some protection againgst ordinary attack ships. I think there isn't any easy way to win.

Good strategy against ships with a lot of shields and armor is small null-space ships with orders to make 10-20% damage. It might not be very effective, but it is very anoying.

In general key to winning is allies. If you don't have them you just got to pull some stunt that no one is expecting.

[ 04 March 2002: Message edited by: Zarix ]</p>

[Phoenix-D]

"Attacking with Planetary Napalm would be devastating to Phoenix-Ds WP strategy."

Right, but that means your ships are dead meat unless you escort them, and his strategy was worked on massive numbers quickly. Escorts don't fit well into that.

Phoenix-D

[tesco samoa]

Good old dependable rock... nothing beats rock.... I am looking forward to battling with Phoenix-d (or allying with) soon.... Zarix you have to remember that Phoenix would most likely add fighters...mines and bases to the defence of the planet......

I like the null ships set at 'until weapons are destroyed'...and you use them with ship capture ships flanked by missle ships or engine targeting ships.....and a couple 1 reload Direct fire ships...

I believe in specialization of ships but the fleets are made up with many ship classes....

If Null ships are giving you problems then attack them with weapons overload or weapons take 6 turns to reload.... and a repulser beam...

[TerranC]

I don't know much about null-space weapons or long-term strategy as I've never used one http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif but if i may...

Phased polaron beams are pretty much the way to go in early weapons research IMHO, as they can skip shileds and deal a good damage, although you have to get face-to-face to get maximum damage.

Point defense is also something that you should develop early. Or good engines since missles still have ranges.

Torpedo is a heavy weapon that even though short ranged, since they can't be targeted by weapons, ships mostly have to grin and bear it.

Armor is good for early ship defense.
Shields just take to long and by the time you develop PS, others already have better weapons that can pierce right through it.

Engines are a must. Just one PD cannon won't hold up against Planetary defences and missle ships. Unless you plan on building ships solley on Missle defence, you hit, and run, and hit, and run. Good engines will make sure your raider comes out alive.

Missles are only effective early on and in numbers. BIG NUMBERS. Don't expect to live by them for long.

Shiled depleters are useful to boarding ships for independent action or people with creative ideas.

Null space weaponry claim to be a good shot but from what I've seen, they are only good in numbers and escorted. Ships can quickly overwhelm a single NS ship with fast firing weapons such as PPB, APB, and Long range weapons such as WMG and CSM.

Combat support should be also researched but don't make it your priority.

For Specific racial techs,

Crystaline and Organic armor can't be beat but if someone had to choose, OGA should be the first choice as it heals wounds, while crystaline gives off 20 or so shileds, they are quickly overcome and destroyed.

Temporal weapons are... creative. Tachyon cannons don't seem to be worth the effort.

Organic weaponry are not much without support.

Crystaline weapons are nice in early stages, but as shileds develop, they are dead in the water.

Psychic weapons are just not worth it. Alligiance subverter is nice but it misses so many times, even with combat scanners and is ineffective against MC's so...

Religious items are worth the effort, besides the size which makes it not worth investing in small ships but for larger ships invaluable.

There goes my rant http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Psychic weapons are just not worth it. Alligiance subverter is nice but it misses so many times, even with combat scanners and is ineffective against MC's so...<hr></blockquote>Wha? Don't wave off psychics:

From a Damage Factor List: (http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/Forum23/HTML/003013.html)
TKP does 1.75 damage/KT/turn
It is in the top-5 most powerful (anti-ship) weapons, and at max range, it is tied for most powerful!
And when you research the TKP, you get other items along the way!


Ripper Beam: 2.00
PPB: 2.00 -&gt; 1.67 @ maxrange
APB: 2.10 -&gt; 1.5 @ maxrange
Meson BLaster: 1.75

[Phoenix-D]

"Phased polaron beams are pretty much the way to go in early weapons research IMHO, as they can skip shileds and deal a good damage, although you have to get face-to-face to get maximum damage."

PPBs are painful. Second only to APBs IMO, and that only because they don't do quite as much damage against phased shields or armor.

"Point defense is also something that you should develop early. Or good engines since missles still have ranges." Can't always rely on the missle dance, especially if you're using, oh, Ripper Beams. Or the enemy has fighters. Yes, PD Is Your Friend..

"Torpedo is a heavy weapon that even though short ranged, since they can't be targeted by weapons, ships mostly have to grin and bear it." Relatively short ranged. Medium, really, and unlike some other weapons don't loose damage with range. Plus they get a to-hit bonus.

"Armor is good for early ship defense.
Shields just take to long and by the time you develop PS, others already have better weapons that can pierce right through it." Armor is also good for defense (+30 defense total, mmmm). I like shields, but they're so !$% expensive to get to decent levels.

"Engines are a must. Just one PD cannon won't hold up against Planetary defences and missle ships. Unless you plan on building ships solley on Missle defence, you hit, and run, and hit, and run. Good engines will make sure your raider comes out alive." Not always. Remember fighters http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Also in strategic (i.e. most games against humans) it doesn't work so well.

"Missles are only effective early on and in numbers. BIG NUMBERS. Don't expect to live by them for long." Unless the other guy doesn't have PD. Even then, APBs can overwhelm them.

"Shiled depleters are useful to boarding ships for independent action or people with creative ideas." Or for taking out highly shielded ships. Kill the generators and all that nice shielding goes out the window.

"Null space weaponry claim to be a good shot but from what I've seen, they are only good in numbers and escorted. Ships can quickly overwhelm a single NS ship with fast firing weapons such as PPB, APB, and Long range weapons such as WMG and CSM." Right. Null-space is best against single, highly shielded/armored targets.

"Combat support should be also researched but don't make it your priority." Heh. ECM and sensors are your best friend. As I've said elsewhere in this thread, I've had a BC that killed many times it's own weight because the opponent didn't have either.

For Specific racial techs,

"Crystaline and Organic armor can't be beat but if someone had to choose, OGA should be the first choice as it heals wounds, while crystaline gives off 20 or so shileds, they are quickly overcome and destroyed." Hmm. Organic regens 30 per turn, and can replace damaged components. Crystal, 15 points of shields per hit. It's a toss-up really. Organic is better on it's own, Crystal is better behind heavy shields and against fast-firing weapons like the APB.

"Temporal weapons are... creative. Tachyon cannons don't seem to be worth the effort." Haven't used.

"Organic weaponry are not much without support." Organic has the fastest firing seeker. Faster firing means you can overwhelm PD more easily..

"Crystaline weapons are nice in early stages, but as shileds develop, they are dead in the water." Then again, if the target is only protected by armor..of course, the armor-skipping weapons tend to be rather weak.

"Psychic weapons are just not worth it. Alligiance subverter is nice but it misses so many times, even with combat scanners and is ineffective against MC's so..." Heh. I had an ally one game. He had 400 some ships, most of that stolen by subverter. The MC issue is simple enough- computer viruses.

"Religious items are worth the effort, besides the size which makes it not worth investing in small ships but for larger ships invaluable." Haven't used.

Phoenix-D