Drone and Anti-Drone Tactics?

[Noble713]

Has anyone come up with some usable anti-drone tactics? I just downloaded the demo today, built a few drone-carrying DDs, and instantly noticed how much the game has changed. While they bLasted a few ships out of the sky with only a few Drones, they in turn were smahsed by a few Drone LCs that I encountered later.

Things that I've noticed:
1. Point defense doesn't do jack against drones. Most of the shots didn't hit, and the ones that did didn't do any damage (or looked that way at least).

2. Regular weapons don't do jack against drones. With the -50% to hit, if you don't have some quality combat sensors you'll never hit them.

3. Drones work against drones, but usually you need the drones to take out the enemy ships. You rarely have enough room to pack the ship with anti-drone drones AND anti-ship drones.


When the full Version arrives, I'll probably edit drones to split them into 2 types: the current automated warships and far smaller missile-like Versions, possibly to replace capital ship missiles.

In the mean time, any suggestions?

[Urendi Maleldil]

Try building gun drones. Just remember that you have to reset the drone strategy or they will run away.

Or use gun drones with engine killers to cripple enemy ships so they bleed your opponent's resources.

[Suicide Junkie]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>1. Point defense doesn't do jack against drones. Most of the shots didn't hit, and the ones that did didn't do any damage (or looked that way at least). <hr></blockquote>Since drones are units, you won't see the damage until it has added up to a kill.

Using dedicated PDC ships, you may get some Drone kills.
The drones also pack Ship-sized shield generators, IIRC, so you have a couple hundred shields to cut through before you can score a kill.

[Rollo]

A good way to kill drones is ramming them before they ram you. The warhead doesn't explode if the drone is rammed, so you suffer only about 100 damage. If you use ships with only armor that works quite well. Not sure, if that is a bug or a feature.

Rollo

[mac5732]

Quick question, I havn't downloaded the Demo yet, waiting for game to obtain surprises,
Question for those of you who played the Demo, How did/does the AI handle the Drone addition as far as use/abilities?

just some ideas mac

[Noble713]

Well in the quick game I played this weekend, the one AI I encountered (Drushocka) had 2 or more drone-armed light cruisers on the front lines in about 5 years. They engaged my 3 DDs (2 drone ships and 1 CSM/DUC ship) with heavy casualties on both sides. The AI had 1 or 2 LCs with Anti-Proton Beams as well (both died).

[Puke]

so, is the general consensus that drones are the way to fly, and they have made other tactics obsolete? are fighters still effective? how about missile tactics against drones? are non-drone-carying capital ships now worthless?

-50 to hit sounds a bit extreme, i would think that they would not be any harder to hit than fighters.

also, does this mean that ramming in strategic combat now works? how about the bugs with boarding when multiple design/types are present?

[PvK]

Drones can be quite powerful, but they're pretty expensive to build up (like building an escort), and are automatically lost. I would tend to think they make sense to build up in peacetime and use to tip the scales by concentrating them on hard targets, but they may not be efficient compared to warships if built during a large-scale war. Drones are a good way to build up a lot of firepower without maintenance costs.

PD may not look like it's doing anything until a kill is scored, but it can be quite effective.

Missiles and torpedoes are not effective against drones because (Last I checked) they can't even hit drones.

PvK

[mac5732]

Ditto for Puke's questions, are the drones going to make larger msl/beam carrying ships obsolete? How did ftrs handle them? How about using the Drones thru wormholes to hit targets, any problems in this area?

just some ideas mac

[Atraikius]

Fighters seem like the best defense against drones from what I've seen. Seen 10 fighters stop 5 drones attacking a planet. As for drone tactics, they work very well for taking out enemy colony ships and transports.

[PvK]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by mac5732:
Ditto for Puke's questions, are the drones going to make larger msl/beam carrying ships obsolete?<hr></blockquote>

No. A missile-only ship would have no defense against drones, but that doesn't make them obsolete, and beam/PD ships in enough quantity seem to be able to handle drones on reasonable terms, or even cream them, depending on tech, design, and tactics, of course.


<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>... How about using the Drones thru wormholes to hit targets, any problems in this area?<hr></blockquote>

If you can see into the next system and the enemy can't see into your launching system, and the targets are in range of the warp point in one turn, a drone attack could be a deadly surprise, but this is of course true of ship attacks, too. Drones do have limited supplies and range, and can't change targets, so if you see a swarm closing in in time, you may be able to avoid them until they expire. I don't remember the exact results of dodging through multiple warp points and how they do/don't track in that case, but that's of course good to know (I forget).

PvK

[Resident Alien 2]

I was thinking some Plague bombing drones would be interesting if you could sneak in and launch against all the planets in a system simultaneously.....

However in the demo you can't put a Plague Bomb on a Drone. But I would imagine it would be easy to mod this in if desired.

[PvK]

Oh, the other anti-drone tactic one beta tester (forget who - sorry) found was to build anti-drone-drones - cheap-o drones that ram other drones. Of course, you have to have them on hand in the right place at the right time.

PvK

[Puke]

it should be easy enough to defend planets with anti-drone-drones. or ramming fighters?

what about point-defense drones? that would be sort of anti-droneish, but would work for overcoming fighters and missiles as well. and cheaper than building PD ships for your fleet.

[Q]

I may have overlooked this in the demo Version but is there any way I can control the launch of the drones in simultaneous games or strategic combat??
If not this will be the big weakness of the drones: Image your colony where you store some 50 drones and then an single enemy colony ship stumbles into the sector and all drones are launched automatically and therefore lost!!
I would hate that.

[mac5732]

In the demo, what were the limitations set on the drones as far as weapon types/engines/supply?
PVK mentioned if your were within 1 turn of wormhole they they could hit, what is the range restriction, in regards to lauching thru wormhole at a planet in a particular system. (I think I said what I mean) Also did anyone lauch drones thru wormhole at defending Battle Station or ships, if so what happened?

just some ideas mac

[geoschmo]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Q:
I may have overlooked this in the demo Version but is there any way I can control the launch of the drones in simultaneous games or strategic combat??
If not this will be the big weakness of the drones: Image your colony where you store some 50 drones and then an single enemy colony ship stumbles into the sector and all drones are launched automatically and therefore lost!!
I would hate that.<hr></blockquote>You have a point there, but I am not sure what could be done about it. Part of the definition of Drones, whether we like it or not, is that they can't be recovered once they are launched. I don't see that being changed. And there is no function to prevent them from being launched in combat that I am aware of. I suppose you could build a space station in orbit with cargo bays and no drone launchers and store them there.

[Rollo]

Mac- IIRC, drones cannot be launched thru a wormhole. They do not have a "warp" command. In order to get drones moving, you must give an "attack" command against a target (ship or planet). Of course you could still order an attack on a planet on the other side of the wormhole to get the drones move through.

Rollo

[geoschmo]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by mac5732:
In the demo, what were the limitations set on the drones as far as weapon types/engines/supply?
PVK mentioned if your were within 1 turn of wormhole they they could hit, what is the range restriction, in regards to lauching thru wormhole at a planet in a particular system. (I think I said what I mean) Also did anyone lauch drones thru wormhole at defending Battle Station or ships, if so what happened?

just some ideas mac<hr></blockquote>You can launch them through a warp point at a planet if you have been to that system before, or are ancient race. To target a ship or base though you have to have line of sight to the target. This means either the drone has to be in system with the target, or you have to have another one of your ships in system.

Geoschmo

[mac5732]

Geo & Rollo, tks for info, I was just wondering then if you have a cloaked ship on enemy side of wormhole and he is defending same with ships or battlestation, and you have line of sight to them, then in essance, (if i'm interperting this right,), we would be able to send drone thru to attack them. If this is true, then it adds new dimensions to defending wormholes, excellent.. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
tks again, can't wait for full Version http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

just some ideas mac

[Q]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by geoschmo:
You have a point there, but I am not sure what could be done about it. Part of the definition of Drones, whether we like it or not, is that they can't be recovered once they are launched. I don't see that being changed. And there is no function to prevent them from being launched in combat that I am aware of. I suppose you could build a space station in orbit with cargo bays and no drone launchers and store them there.<hr></blockquote>

Yes I see there is a problem and I have no ideal solution.
What might be possible:
1.) The AI seems to be able to calculate the chance to win a combat. At least that's what I suppose why frequently ships do not attack if the AI feels outnumbered. If you apply this calculation program to decide a.) if it's necessary to launch the drones at all b) how many drones are probably needed to win the combat you might have quite a good solution.
2.) Make a difference for drone recovery if attacking (no recovery possible) and defending (automatic recovery at the end of the combat).

The way it is now you have a superior strategy against drones: just attack with one drone (or even a fighter) and the enemy will launch all his drones (and eventually lose them!) in that sector.

And one more question: In the demo you can give only the order to attack for drones, no order "move to". Is that true for the full Version? I think this would prevent greatly one use for drones I supposed to be very important: reconnaissance.

[geoschmo]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Q:
And one more question: In the demo you can give only the order to attack for drones, no order "move to". Is that true for the full Version? I think this would prevent greatly one use for drones I supposed to be very important: reconnaissance.<hr></blockquote>

Yes, in the full Version there is still only an attack order for drones, no move too. In fact you can't even change targets unless the original target is destroyed or manages to escape. (cloaking, warping into a system with no line of sight) If the target is destroyed or lost you can then give the drone a new attack order.

[Jourin]

I am disappointed that drones have no move to. I envisioned using them as reconnaissance for Warp points so I wouldn't loose a manned ship to mines.
I also thought they would be good minesweepers for a warp point assault. I agree that to attack a ship you need to target in advance.

I also agree that drones should be unrecoverable.

I hope I will be able to use drones for the above missions or modify the files to achieve that capability.

[Bman]

If you want to use a drone for reconnaisance on a warppoint to see if it is defended/mined, then I suppose you could do this (If you have seen the system before or are Ancient Race): give a drone the order to attack a planet in the system (I am hoping you can give this order even for empty planets since you don't know which planets have colonies or not without any ships in there...if they limit the Attack to planets with colonies then you could try attacking all the planets to discover which had colonies!). Your drone should warp into the system and move towards the planet. You'll definately know whether it hit any defenses on the warppoint or what is in the system even.

[Q]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Bman:
If you want to use a drone for reconnaisance on a warppoint to see if it is defended/mined, then I suppose you could do this (If you have seen the system before or are Ancient Race): give a drone the order to attack a planet in the system (I am hoping you can give this order even for empty planets since you don't know which planets have colonies or not without any ships in there...if they limit the Attack to planets with colonies then you could try attacking all the planets to discover which had colonies!). Your drone should warp into the system and move towards the planet. You'll definately know whether it hit any defenses on the warppoint or what is in the system even.<hr></blockquote>

At least in the demo Version it is not possible to give drones an attack order for a planet in a system where you don't have any ships.
I don't see any reason why drones can't have the "move to" order and really hope that this will be changed.
I fully agree that the inability to recover drones is crucial but some sort of control over the drone launch is needed if they are to be useful.
Don't misunderstand my post: I am enthusiastic about drones, but I think to get the full possibilities some hard coded changes have to be made by MM in a future patch IMHO. Or what are the opinions of the beta-testers on this point?

[mac5732]

Geo, you said a line of sight from ship, does this include a cloaked sat in the system? this would enhance the use of cloaked sats hidden in systems, or doesn't sats able to give line of sight for drones use ?

I also agree that drones should be left un-retrievable, otherwise they become all to encampassing and to strong of a weapon, but a move to order would be nice, have them sit in a system until a target appears and then whamm, espcially if they can cloak.

The real question is, is the AI capable of using the drone capabilities as has been stated in this thread on a continuous basis?

just some ideas mac

[geoschmo]

I'm going to back off one of of my earlier statements because there were some changes made to drones late in the beta phase they I did not fully test. Others on the beta team did test the drones a lot, but I was more concerned with some other issues, mainly PBW related stuff and TCP/IP.

I am not certain they they can be launched against just planets. They may need to be colonies, and they may need line of sight as well.

As far as what constitutes line of sight, a cloaked sat should do just fine. Anything that allows you to see what is occuring in the system at the moment. Mines would not, but about anything else would.

I can tell you that the only difference between the drones in the gold demo and what is supposed to be on the gold CD is that you will get more tech levels which will result in larger drones. As far as what they can do and how they act there should be no difference. You should be able to test all this stuff with the demo and get your answers. If I get time I will try it myself, but I can't promise anything.

Geoschmo

[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: geoschmo ]</p>

[PvK]

Yes, Last I checked, drones could only target seen enemy targets, so they couldn't go into systems where you didn't have a current view. A cloaked ship or satellite will provide this.

I agree "move to" would be a great addition, and expect a collective whine will get it in an early post-Gold patch. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

As for the speed question, I think it's the same as ship speed for what you throw on it, plus 1-3, depending on drone tech level. So low tech = speed 7, highest in the normal tech set would be something like 6 + 3 + 3 + 3 = 15, or 16 if "propulsion expert" counts.

PvK

[Q]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by mac5732:
The real question is, is the AI capable of using the drone capabilities as has been stated in this thread on a continuous basis?<hr></blockquote>

This is difficult to judge from the demo Version. What I've seen is that the AI builds relatively few drones (1 per colony), so it takes a long time till the drone carriers are full. This can easily be changed in the full Version. I see much more problems in the fact that once a drone carrier has any enemy contact (e.g. a colony ship) it will launch all its drones, which will be destroyed later if no other target is available. Considering the relatively high construction cost of drones that might be quite a problem for the AI.
The same is true for drones as a defense for colonies. If there is an attack all drones will be used and there will be no more protection for a second attack.
I believe as it is now drones will be a problem for the AI especially against human players. Therefore I will be very careful to introduce them in my AI modifications.

[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: Q ]</p>

[geoschmo]

Slightly off-topic here, but for those of you that do decide to buy the Gold CD. One of my personal contributions is a scenario in which you are unable to research any tech and you are limited in weapons to drone warheads, and point defense.

The idea was that all combat would be via drones. I was thinking of the star trek episode where the planets coducted their war via long range missles and never sent manned ships against each other. You can use your ships to ram I suppose though.

Should be interesting to play. I hope it is anyway. In my tests the AI was building drones and deploying them in semi-logical ways. Drone carriers, etc.

Geoschmo

[mac5732]

Tks "Q" for the heads-up. Sounds as if a little more work on Drones in relation to AI use needs to be looked at in order for them to be as useful for the AI as for human players. Hopefully some of this can be rectified before the release. Everyone has been waiting so long for Drones, it wouldn't be fun if the AI can't use them well

just some ideas mac

[PvK]

Oh, as for the idea that you can get an enemy to launch all their defensive drones with a single ship and thus get them all to expire if they have no other targets in range, I think I'm right that tactically-launched drones actually return to base if they survive the combat, like fighters do, thus preventing that cheap tactic, and giving extra value to defensive drones, and drone carriers (you only use them up if you send them to remote targets).

PvK

[Jourin]

I really want a "move to" or warp capability for drones. Either it comes standard or I can "mod the capability in" Maybe if I keep on whining it will happen.

[Q]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by PvK:
Oh, as for the idea that you can get an enemy to launch all their defensive drones with a single ship and thus get them all to expire if they have no other targets in range, I think I'm right that tactically-launched drones actually return to base if they survive the combat, like fighters do, thus preventing that cheap tactic, and giving extra value to defensive drones, and drone carriers (you only use them up if you send them to remote targets).

PvK<hr></blockquote>

That's not what I,ve seen.

The AI however tries to find new attack targets for the launched drones that survived the first combat.

Again one more question to those with the full beta Version:
Is is possible to "cheat" on the lifetime for drones by giving them solar panels or even quantum reactors to prevent the exhaustion of their fuel?

[mac5732]

Q, I know I should download the Demo, just don't have time right now, But, question, the Ai apparantly, from Posts on this thread, launch ALL of their drones upon enemy contact. Is there a button, whatever, where a human player may launch a specific number of drones similiar to how the present CV & ftrs do now or is the launch automaticly for all drones on that ship/planet when you hit launch? Maybe this is the area that needs to be looked at in correlation to full, half, or a limited launch?

just some ideas mac

[Q]

Mac this depends if you play a turn based or simultaneous game.
In a turn based game you can launch any number of units you want. In a simultaneous game you have to launch all units (at least this was true for Version 1.49. I did not make a simultaneous game with the gold demo yet). Of course there are tricks to get over this limitation if you have two carrier ships or a colony and a carrier ship: load the units you want to launch in one ship and give the order only to this ship and not the colony or the other ship.

[Baron Munchausen]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Q:


That's not what I,ve seen.

The AI however tries to find new attack targets for the launched drones that survived the first combat.

Again one more question to those with the full beta Version:
Is is possible to "cheat" on the lifetime for drones by giving them solar panels or even quantum reactors to prevent the exhaustion of their fuel?<hr></blockquote>

Yes. Putting solar panels in will greatly extend their operating time. The QR is awfully expensive for a drone, but I'd presume it would work. Now if only there was an 'explore' command for drones. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[Q]

Thank you Baron for your answer. That opens interesting new possibilities.
I think the vote to introduce a "explore" "move to" "warp" order for drones are unanimous. I hope MM hears us!

[Puke]

since drones are supposed to get only one order then stop (right?) move to and warp would be of limitied utility.

however, if you wanted to guard a location with drones, i suppose that move to and warp would be usefull. you should probably not be able to give them new orders after they have launched (even though we can do this now with cruise missiles) to be in the spirit of the design.

maybe there is a problem where if they have move-to or warp abilities, the hard code in the game will allow them to recieve multiple orders, and the only way to keep them one-shot items was to remove those commands?

[Phoenix-D]

"since drones are supposed to get only one order then stop (right?) move to and warp would be of limitied utility."

Not really. See, with a move-to order you could send them off to attack a location, even if there wasn't an enemy ship there (say, you couldn't see a system but wanted them to attack a enemy planet you knew was there). I'm not sure this can be done currently.

Phoenix-D

[Puke]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
(say, you couldn't see a system but wanted them to attack a enemy planet you knew was there)<hr></blockquote>

that sounds almost unscrupoulous, knowing where a planet is in an unexplored system? or did you mean an explored system that you had no current telemetry from?

[PvK]

Yes, currently you have to be seeing an enemy colony to attack it, so you can't attack ones that you've seen in the past and could assume haven't vanished.

Also, currently, if drones destroy their first target, they can be given new attack orders on the next turn.

PvK

[Suicide Junkie]

How about using move-to to get your drones to the front lines without a transport ship?
If you have some launched drones, and no visible enemies, you need to be able to send them moving off somewhere else.

[mac5732]

My opinion only, but I think we need to look at how the drones operate in the different settings,
ie; Stratigic combat vs, Tactical, Turn based vs Simultaneous. From reading the Posts, and I may be way off base, but it appears that drones in tactical combat can be recovered but not so in Strategic, I haven't seen anything yet on the difference between turn & simultaneous. Also that once launched they will look for additional targets if their priority target was destroyed, or they may be given fresh new orders. This sounds like a contradiction, except I took it to mean in 2 different types of combat, 2 different results. What happens if none of the above apply, are the drones then automatically destroyed? In which case?

Sj, if you were able to "move to" to front lines, if that was several systems out, wouldn't supply for a drone become a problem as far as movement over that distance? my opinion only, if drones are considered small enough to be carried like ftrs then their supply would also be limited as to distance.

just some ideas mac http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

[Q]

That's what I observed with the gold demo Version:

1.) You never can recover drones no matter what type of game or combat.

2.) In turn based games you can use the "launch units" button in order to launch any desired number of drones.

3.) In tactical combat you can use the "launch unit" order to launch any desired number of drones.

4.) In strategical combat all drones are launched automatically.

5.) In simultaneous games you have only the "launch units remotely" button, where you cannot specify the number of units you want to launch. Therefore all units are launched.

6.) You can give drones only an attack order against enemy ships and colonies you see.

7.) If the primary target of the drones is destroyed or disappears you can give a new attack order to the drones.

8.) Drones are only automatically self destroyed if they run out of supplies.

[Suicide Junkie]

Yes, but if you just need to move up one system, into no-man's land, then they could move there, see some targets and attack.

Basically, the move-to enables exploration orders.

[mac5732]

tks "Q" & SJ, I was starting to get a little http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

just some ideas mac

[Jourin]

Why I want a 'move to' or warp capability.

1. Recon drone: Send a drone through an explored warp point. Even if that was the only mission I could give and the drone was destroyed, it still performed the designed recon function.

2. Clear mine fields: Recon drone from 1 above discovers mine field. Send in mine clearing drones to clear minefield.

3. Warp point bombardment: Recon drone from 1 above discovers targets. Send in drones to attack ships.

[ 31 January 2002: Message edited by: Jourin ]</p>

[Desert Rat]

Is it possible to group drones for movement/attack?

I attached a planet with 10 drones and had to give the attack command to each one individually. Each drone moved to attack one at a time. I would like to group the drones and have them attack all at once.

Desert Rat

[Rollo]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Desert Rat:
Is it possible to group drones for movement/attack?

I attached a planet with 10 drones and had to give the attack command to each one individually. Each drone moved to attack one at a time. I would like to group the drones and have them attack all at once.

Desert Rat<hr></blockquote>

Yeah, you can select them with shift+click to move and attack as a group.

Rollo

edit: Oh, and welcome to the forum, btw.

[ 31 January 2002: Message edited by: Rollo ]</p>

[Desert Rat]

Thanks for the info Rollo. Kept looking for a button, and forgot about the shortcuts.

Desert Rat

[PvK]

The "drones will automatically select a target when their target is destroyed" applies to tactical combat, but not at the system level.

PvK

[Jourin]

Is the code fix to allow drones to warp or "move to" in work? Will this bug be fixed for the Gold release in Feb?

[Mephisto]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Jourin:
Is the code fix to allow drones to warp or "move to" in work? Will this bug be fixed for the Gold release in Feb?<hr></blockquote>

It is no bug but a design decision. It might get altered but don't count on.

[Q]

It may be not a bug but it is a mistake IMHO that the drones can't be used for reconnaissance due to the lack of the "warp" / "move to" command.
The way it is now drones are actually just large long range missiles.

[Mephisto]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Q:
It may be not a bug but it is a mistake IMHO that the drones can't be used for reconnaissance due to the lack of the "warp" / "move to" command.
The way it is now drones are actually just large long range missiles.<hr></blockquote>

Of course this is open to discussion. I just wanted to point out that the were deliberately designed to be cruise missiles and nothing else. If this is good or bad, what the fans want or don’t want, is an entirely different matter. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Personally I think it is a wise decision. If they can move around and warp they are nothing less then small ships without maintenance that can be build without a spaceyard and are very fast. Why should anyone build small ships instead?

[Jourin]

The purpose of drones is to do missions you would not assign to manned ships.

High risk recon like a warp point in a contested sector.
Mine clearing when the chance of a mine sweeper being destroyed.
Raming or the cruise missile attack.

I have waited for drones primarily for the first two abilities and I still won't have them. Currently drones are only working 1/3 of the time. Of course it is a bug. To say it is a feature is like comparing MM to Microsoft who routinely classifies all their bugs as features. I am very disappointed that MM is releasing the Gold Version with such a major bug! What happened to MM's vaunted "won't release with a know bug policy"!

Again I am very disappointed!

[dmm]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Jourin:
The purpose of drones is to do missions you would not assign to manned ships.
<hr></blockquote>
My evil emperor uses products of conception (POCs) for that role. Gestating females who exercise their right to choose can get the POC removed at a gov't clinic free of charge. It then goes into an artificial gestation chamber for maturation. It is then raised by other POCs until the state decides what to do with it. There is no moral problem with assigning POCs to dangerous space missions, since they are not people.

[Q]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by [K126]Mephisto:


Of course this is open to discussion. I just wanted to point out that the were deliberately designed to be cruise missiles and nothing else. If this is good or bad, what the fans want or don’t want, is an entirely different matter. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Personally I think it is a wise decision. If they can move around and warp they are nothing less then small ships without maintenance that can be build without a spaceyard and are very fast. Why should anyone build small ships instead?<hr></blockquote>

I respectfully disagree.
The main disadvantage of drones compared to ships is their limited life span. So drones will not replace small ships.
In my very humble opinion MM made the same mistake as with the fighters in the very early SE IV release: The small fighters with only 10kT were just not useful. It is a pity to introduce features that will not be used. May be MM was afraid that drones would get too powerful, but now I believe we are on the opposite:
After what I have seen with the demo I probably will use still much more fighters than drones. And for the AI using drones I better say nothing.

However I am absolutely convinced that drones can be a great addition to the game, if some changes are made.

[Baron Munchausen]

Since drones use ship engines in the default config they are very, very expensive for expendable units. You will pay about 1/2 the cost of a fully equipped cruiser and yet have to throw it away when the drone is launched. Either drones should use fighter engines (in which case they must be moved out of fighter tech levels to some 'smaller components' field) or there needs to be a special set of drone engines that are less expensive. In my personal mod I've made the special engines -- half the size and less than half the cost (but more than fighter engines) -- and this helps a great deal with the cost. They still cost about as much as a satellite, which is multi-use while a drone is not, but that's better than half the cost of a cruiser!

As far as explore and patrol, yes, I posted several times in the beta forums that they would be flooded with requests for these two functions if they didn't include them. This is the FIRST use that most people think of for them, not combat. All I can say is, send in those emails. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I hope he will implement remote refueling, too, but that might be more difficult.

[Mephisto]

One short example against the more versatile drones: If you could command drones to move around you could also easily use them for defense. In a system with 10 planets you can build an average of 6 to 7 drones per turn. Each of this drones will Last at least 5 rounds. You don’t need any spaceyards to build those. You don’t have to pay maintenance. But you could easily park them on a warp point and build a very very powerful defense with about 25 to 30 drones on defense at all times. As it seems MM found this to unbalancing so he decided against it. But if you think it should be altered mail Aaron about it. As we all know, MM is listening to the community very carefully.

[Phoenix-D]

If you want to play the definitions game, try this one:

If something is done intentionally, it is NOT A BUG. It's a design decision. This is where the flame part of your statement came in- accusing MM of releasing a game with a known bug when in fact you've named nothing of the sort.

There's much in SE4 that doesn't agree with current military terms.

EDIT: here's a few
Battleship: a warship of the largest and most heavily armed and armored class. In SE4? A ship of 800kt. Dreadnaughts and baseships are bigger.

"Shields" in current terms are nothing like SE4 shields. Neither are ion engines. "Capital Ship Missles" can be mounted on pretty much anything other than a fighter.

Phoenix-D

[ 06 February 2002: Message edited by: Phoenix-D ]</p>

[jimbob]

Err.. yeah, so a little tension here... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Well, I can definitely see Jourin's point about looking forward to getting one thing and definitely not getting it. Unfortunately definitions and thus expectations are just too flexible, especially when MM is in the business of creating a pretend, futuristic Universe.

Personally, I'd love to see (1) the Drones get cheaper, which is easily enough to mod (see below) and (2) some drones being capable of scouting through warp points, which is not modable.

My suggestion: ask MM to make a special component that allows Drones to go through warp points (how about a "warp motivator"). Make it either prohibitively expensive or (my favorite) just make it big... like half the size of the Drone. Thus people will be able to create warpable drones, but these will still be inferior to small ships because you end up with less space for additional components.

Just my thoughts on it all. Hope y'all have a good day. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

-jimbob

[PvK]

This example of 30 drones on a warp point doesn't sound at all unbalancing to me, if someone is spending the output of ten planets to build it. It's going to be effective against some attackers, but quite expensive to maintain. I don't think it'd be more effective than alternative defenses using the same or fewer resources. The drones I've encountered (even in swarms of 30 or so) have not been all that hard to shoot down, and they expire pretty quickly, can't gain experience or be resupplied or carry cargo.

It's also probably a lot less efficient than building cargo/launcher bases at the warp point and filling them with drones that can wait for something to attack, and won't expire. This can be done without a move order for drones.

PvK

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by [K126]Mephisto:
One short example against the more versatile drones: If you could command drones to move around you could also easily use them for defense. In a system with 10 planets you can build an average of 6 to 7 drones per turn. Each of this drones will Last at least 5 rounds. You don’t need any spaceyards to build those. You don’t have to pay maintenance. But you could easily park them on a warp point and build a very very powerful defense with about 25 to 30 drones on defense at all times. As it seems MM found this to unbalancing so he decided against it. But if you think it should be altered mail Aaron about it. As we all know, MM is listening to the community very carefully.<hr></blockquote>

[PvK]

Except that drones can already move through warp points - if their target is on the other side of one. There's just no way to give them orders to do so without a target, which IMO should be changed.

PvK

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jimbob:
...
Personally, I'd love to see (1) the Drones get cheaper, which is easily enough to mod (see below) and (2) some drones being capable of scouting through warp points, which is not modable.

My suggestion: ask MM to make a special component that allows Drones to go through warp points (how about a "warp motivator"). Make it either prohibitively expensive or (my favorite) just make it big... like half the size of the Drone. Thus people will be able to create warpable drones, but these will still be inferior to small ships because you end up with less space for additional components.
...<hr></blockquote>

[Baron Munchausen]

There seems to be a misconception sneaking into the discussion here. Drones definitely CAN go through warp points. What they cannot do is move anywhere without a designated target to attack. So, even if you've seen an enemy system you cannot launch attacks without 'live' recon data. I find this a problem, as do others. I hope 'move to' and 'explore' will be added to drones soon in a patch. I don't see a reason to restrict this ability with any extra expenses/component, either. These are both very simple missions that a drone computer should be able to comprehend.

On the other hand, I don't see drones as useful 'sentinel' weapons like satellites. They have a fixed supply usage per turn and cannot be recovered. So, once launched they are counting down to destruction one way or another. You can set that supply usage very low, of course. I do wish he would change it to 'minimum per turn' rather than a fixed level no matter what, so that if you burned more than that minimum during movement it would not subtract that much more on top. It affects drone range considerably as it is.

[ 06 February 2002: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]</p>

[Magnum357]

I'm sorry, but I disagree. How do you know that navigating to a Warp point is an "Easy" thing? It could be quite difficult. Also, maybe special equipment is needed to make the jump through a Warp Point which could not be possible in a Drone (too small for example). Personally, I like the way Drones are right now. It keeps them very limited in what you can do with them and you have to really think in order to use them effectively.

[Q]

I think this is a classic example where you could make everyone happy by making a line in the settings text file:

drones can be give move to/warp orders: true/false

Please!

[Mephisto]

I guess Q is right. :-)

[geoschmo]

Let's keep this thread on track.

If you have a complaint about how drones function currently, make it. If you have a suggestion about how to make them "better", let us hear it.

No more arguments about definitions or semantics of whether it's "bug" or a "feature". No more arguments about whether or not it was promised and not delivered.

Keep your head, maintain your cool, say your piece.

Geoschmo

[mac5732]

If this has been mentioned before, I apoligize. In relation to Drone Defense, are ftrs going to be capable of shooting them down? Ftrs would make a good anit-drone force and would be a cheap way of doing it. Also give the ftrs a little more use at the higher turns when they are not as effective. I have not downloaded demo as I'm waiting for the GOLD, but I'm getting real itchy to start playing, so I might after all.

Also, do the drones have formations? if so defensive tactics/formation may be looked into depending on the numbers involved.

just some ideas mac

[ 06 February 2002: Message edited by: mac5732 ]</p>

[PvK]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Magnum357:
I'm sorry, but I disagree. How do you know that navigating to a Warp point is an "Easy" thing? It could be quite difficult. Also, maybe special equipment is needed to make the jump through a Warp Point which could not be possible in a Drone (too small for example). ...<hr></blockquote>

We know because they can do it as a matter of course if the target they are tracking is visible to any satellite, ship, or colony in the drone's empire. They can already pass through warp points - that's not the issue. The issue is whether you should be able to give them orders to move to a location - they already have the ability to warp.

PvK

[PvK]

It sounds like if there are really people who don't want drones to be able to warp (which would be a NEW limit), then perhaps two lines in settings.txt would be ideal:

Drones can be given move/warp orders := true/false
Drones can pass through warp points := true/false

Of course, if the new limit on warping were set to false, then the drones should not accept target or destination orders that aren't in the same system that they are.

Mac's questions:

Can fighters shoot down drones? Yes, as long as they have weapons that can hit them (no torps or missiles), and an appropriate strategy.

Do drones have formations? I don't think drones can be added to fleets, so no. The best you can do is launch them and target them so they move in a horde. This helps a fleet of ships to be able to just chew them up with beam weapons and PD.

PvK

[mac5732]

PvK, would it be beneficial to give the drones some tactical formations besides the option of the horde/mass movement? This possibly could make them a little harder to take out by defense ships/ftrs, leaving at least the chance of some/few to get thru the defenses no matter how much aa you put out, similiar to Kamkazies in WWII, some always managed to get thru and do damage. This in turn would cause or create some new tactics/strategies, I just don't know if 1. AI could handle it, and 2 if it is even workable
or is worth looking into. I'm not a programmer or modder, but working on it (modding)

just some ideas mac

[Spoo]

I think drones should be able to accept warp/move to orders, but should be unmovable after they reach their destination.

This way they'd be good for reconisence and attacking unseen targets that you know are there. Additionally, they wouldn't be unbalancing as warp point defense because of their limited fuel; satellites and fighters would still be superior.

[PvK]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by mac5732:
PvK, would it be beneficial to give the drones some tactical formations besides the option of the horde/mass movement? This possibly could make them a little harder to take out by defense ships/ftrs, leaving at least the chance of some/few to get thru the defenses no matter how much aa you put out, similiar to Kamkazies in WWII, some always managed to get thru and do damage. This in turn would cause or create some new tactics/strategies, I just don't know if 1. AI could handle it, and 2 if it is even workable
or is worth looking into. I'm not a programmer or modder, but working on it (modding)

just some ideas mac<hr></blockquote>


Drones could be more effective when used in formation, because they might arrive more at once and faster rather than the way they currently mob along and sometimes get slowed by each other and arrive in a less concentrated group than might otherwise be possible. It might be good for players to try the current system for a while though to see if they really need to be more powerful or not, though. On the other hand, it might have side effects that would be disadvantageous, since the entire group would be homing in on the same target, and might ignore other ships en route (target orders can be given to drones in strategies, but I haven't studied how these override the assigned target for ramming or weapon drones, if at all) I imagine it might involve a fair amount of work to program, but I'm not sure.

The drones I've mostly run into so far have been pretty low-tech and so not so hard to deal with. For example, I just had three light cruisers with one or maybe two PDC between them, and some beam weapons, encounter nineteen small low-tech simple warhead drones. Only two of the drones made it to a target - the rest were shot down. The cruisers did have first-rate fire control, though. I think more advanced drones with ECM and/or shields could have made a large difference, though, but you can see that drones can be dealth with. I think in this case if the drones could have used a formation it might have been closer - even more than ship combat, combat with ramming drones tends to be a landslide win for one side or the other - if they don't all get shot down, they will do a lot of damage. If there is enough firepower to shoot them down as they come in, probably only a few or no hits will be scored. I haven't seen much use of weapon-armed drones using stand-off tactics - those would be a different story. And of course, these are drone-vs.-ship scenarios - if the drones also had ships on their side, it could tip the scales, and so on.

PvK

[E. Albright]

All I really would like out of drones is the ability to launch them at planets that I have seen, but can't see any more. I just want 'em to be big 'ole cruise missles, but for now I need to have a spotter for 'em to launch - but not 'til they hit; it's enough to see it while launching. So it would seem just as reasonable to lemme shoot at planets that I know are there but can't see any more.

Oh, and if I were to get really demanding, a "go-through-the-warp-point-and-attack-the-nearest-enemy-planet (ship)" order would be nice, too. But the former bit would be enough for me.

E. Albright