Keeping your distance (II)

[derb]

There should be better AI assistance to prevent you from running out of fuel on the way somewhere. If the computer knows you will run out it should re-rout you to a refuelling point along the way or at least say "are you sure?" I haven't got the hang of estimating my fuel range yet...

[Growltigga]

I personally would not want the AI to interfere in my fueling requirements - it would be a pain, especially on one way ships like colony vessels.

I think the easiest way to gauge refuelling is to hit the "S" button in relation to your scout ship JUST before the supply level reaches half of its maximum

[Gryphin]

derb, Yes it would be nice to have code added to take care of this. I have seen the AI repeatedly send its own ships out till they run out of supply.
At the moment it is one of the advantages Humans have over AI. A human can generaly choose a planet that is near the AI path between two warp points. Sometimes it is possible to put the Resupply directly in the path of the AIs chosen route.
Yes it can be a pain but it does get easyier with experiance.
I would suggest take time out and do some test to see how far the various engine sets get you. Hmm, Infact, I think I'll do just that and post it at my web site. I'll let you know.

[Suicide Junkie]

Form the Things I would like to see... (http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=23&t=004608&p=3) thread, second page from the start. <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Step 1.
- Start with a basic range of 50 squares.

Step 2:
- Count the extra supplies due to supply bays.
- Divide by 10.
- Divide by the number of engines in the fleet.
- Add this value to the basic 50.

Step 3:
- Count the supplies generated per turn by solar panels.
- multiply by the average number of stars your ships will meet between turns (if unsure, 1 is a good estimate to use)
- Divide by the fleet's speed
- Divide by the number of engines in the fleet
- Subtract this number from 10.
- Divide by 10.
- Divide the range found in step 2 by this number.

If you got a negative number or "division by zero" or infinity, you have unlimited range. Otherwise, you have just found the actual range of your fleet, assuming that the fleet travels at top speed the entire way.

[ 03 February 2002: Message edited by: suicide_junkie ]<hr></blockquote>

EDIT: fixed URL

[ 14 February 2002: Message edited by: suicide_junkie ]</p>

[mottlee]

Hmmm.....I'll just keep an eye on the supplys http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[Gryphin]

sj,
Thank you, I could not remember where I saw it. If I did the math correctly, a ship with:
Speed 6 moving at full speed and with no extras has a range of 50 sqares befor it runs out of supply?
Sounds good to me.

Edit: Dumb Spreadsheet, got the formula wrong.

[ 14 February 2002: Message edited by: Gryphin ]</p>

[mac5732]

The way I watch supply if you don't have the quantum reactors, I just watch the supply level,
When it gets down to half or almost half of what it started with, I start heading to a re-supply center or send a supply ship out to it.

just some ideas mac

[Gryphin]

Quantum Reactors:
I have not played a game long enough to find them.
What Tech Trees do I have to go down to get them?
Do they take up 1 space?
If they take up one space, are you dead in the water if it gets hit? ER: Dead in space?

[ 14 February 2002: Message edited by: Gryphin ]</p>

[mottlee]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Gryphin:
Quantum Reactors:
I have not played a game long enough to find them.
What Tech Trees do I have to go down to get them?
Do they take up 1 space?
If they take up one space, are you dead in the water if it gets hit? ER: Dean in space?<hr></blockquote>
Resupply http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Thank you, I could not remember where I saw it. If I did the math correctly, a ship with:
Speed 6 moving at full speed and with no extras has a range of 50 sqares befor it runs out of supply?
Sounds good to me.<hr></blockquote>In fact, Any ship with Any number of engines, and no extras goes 50 squares before running out of supplies http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

[derb]

Nice to know number of squares range from an intellectual point of view but it doesn't help much when playing strategically because crossing a system warp point to warp point is a different distance each time so it is hard to know how many warp points you can cross (and it is sometimes hard to figure out the path your ships will take from one place to another, distant place).

It is interesting to know that range is in squares and not in number of turns - so having faster engines doesn't help as I thought...

[dmm]

I believe the phrase "the fustest with the mostest" is part of a quote from a Confederate general. Can't remember which one; it was a lesser-known guy (i.e., not Robert E. Lee or Stonewall Jackson). But Patton probably quoted it, at least in the movie "Patton." And the same basic idea has probably been stated by military strategists since pre-history. It's kind of obvious actually, except to an AI: 5 guys can beat up 10 guys, if they can take on the 10 guys one at a time.

Anyway, slow ships had better have long-range weapons or else fast ships will toast them.

[Gryphin]

dmm, Thanks for the correction. For those following this thread todays miltary top 3 Rules of Warfare are:
Concentration of Effort, (used in attack usualy)
Econnomy of Force, (used in defence usualy)
Mobility
Note: This is an over simplyfication. In general these same rules apply to much of life as well.

[Wardad]

When I first started playing I guessed that waypoints must be resupply points that ships passed through when moving through a system.

Of course I was wrong, But it would be cool to setup and remove resupply points.

[Phoenix-D]

"It is interesting to know that range is in squares and not in number of turns - so having faster engines doesn't help as I thought... "

Bigger engine = more thrust = more fuel used. So you go faster, but only get the same distance before running out of fuel.

This is unmodded SE4, of course. Mods can and do change this.

Phoenix-D

[Gryphin]

Just an idea:
Is it possible to make a Base that could act as a Resuply point. This could be built in a warp point. One of the limits might be that a "Tanker" must be dedicated to it with a "Patrol" path that passed through a Ressuply planet and back to the Resupply Base once ever X number of turns.
Maybe this should go on a wish list.

[Phoenix-D]

ANY base can serve as a resupply point. See, they all act like they have Quantum Reactors. So you just put the base in a fleet with the ships you want supplied, and the next turn they'll be ready to go.

Phoenix-D

[Gryphin]

Phoenix D, Thanks. What a great idea. I wonder what other brillaint person thought of that.
If I understand:
First I build a Space Yard Ship
Put it in a Warp Point
Build a Base
Then a ship or fleet can move through it and be resuplyed.
I guess this same base could have Ship Repair bays.
Sounds like a plan. I hope Growltigga does not see this. &lt; broad smile &gt;

[dmm]

Speaking of mobility: In the original SEIV, you could put emergency propulsion components on bases. You couldn't MoveTo, but you could Download/Upload (which caused a move automatically). This was great fun, allowing you to make DeathStars, and with incredible range. (BWAAHAAHAHAHA!) They were difficult to use for attack, since you could only get them to move to a sector that already contained one of your units. But it was a bLast to suddenly move one of them through a dozen systems to provide resupply support for a fleet far from home. And they were genuinely useful as medical or transport vessels.

Alas, I believe those days are permanently over. Am I right, that you can't even mod that in anymore?

[Phoenix-D]

"Then a ship or fleet can move through it and be resuplyed."

eh-eh. Not quite that simple. You must STOP, fleet up with the base, and wait one turn. Then de-fleet and go on your way.

Phoenix-D

[Gryphin]

derb,
The advantage of faster engines is as I belive General Patton put it: "The firstes with the mostest". His language aside, Faster engines can turn the tide of a battle every time.
Yes, you do have to do some careful planning to where you place resupply and using the "Move To". Experiance does make this eaier
Still I understand your frustration.

[mac5732]

Also ck the amount of supply your fleet has before you debark. If you used quite of bit of your max fleet supply, you may have to stay a few extra turns to get it back up to max again.

just some ideas mac

[Phoenix-D]

"If you used quite of bit of your max fleet supply, you may have to stay a few extra turns to get it back up to max again."

Actually, no. Bases act like they have built-in Quantum Reactors. Supply is evenly distrubuted among the ships in a fleet. Quantum reactors produce infinite supply.

So..

Infinity/2 = Infinity
Infinity/3 = Infinity
Infinity/4 = Infinity
Infinity/n-1 = infinity
Infinity/n = infinity

In other words, no matter how many ships you have docked, they'll fill in one turn.

Phoenix-D

[mac5732]

Phoenix-D, question, In games I've played, I have parked ships over planets I own with re-supply bases, however, I have seen where if I've used quite a bit of supply, that they sometimes take several turns before their maxed out again.
Do bases then act differently then planets?, I've never payed attention but I shall from now on, does make difference.

just some ideas mac

[Phoenix-D]

It's not supposed to do that I think. I'll make a quick mod tommarrow to check it out. (65k supples, engine uses 64k per move..)

Phoenix-D

[mac5732]

What I've seen is something like; fleet's max is say 3000, you arrive at planet re-supply with say
1250. It would take 2 or more turns before it would again max out to 3000. I've seen this quite often in 1.41 and 1.49 and even in my hot seat games. It's not only for fleets but happens with single ships as well.

ps. what are you doing up so late, I thought I was the only one on, kids in bed and have some time to my self, but usually everyone on forum is already gone and in bed around this time http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

just some ideas mac

[Q]

In all my games resupply on planets was instantaneous. However the supply use for the Last movement is subtracted: A ship with 6 engines and a supply capacity of 3000 will therefore be refueled only to 2940. If you don't move the next turn then it will have full 3000 supply.
Supply transfer within fleets takes one turn.

Is that what you obseved or were your ships using supplies (e.g. cloaking) while in orbit around the colony?

[ 17 February 2002: Message edited by: Q ]</p>

[geoschmo]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by dmm:
(RE: Bases moving) I believe those days are permanently over. Am I right, that you can't even mod that in anymore?<hr></blockquote>

Actually, I don't know about the emergency movement, but bases are perfectly capable of using standard engiens if it is modded in. In the stock game they have a max of zero engines on the hull. But if you change that, they can be given standard ship engines and mvoe around just like ships. You can even give them move to and attack orders.

Geoschmo

[Phoenix-D]

"But if you change that, they can be given standard ship engines and mvoe around just like ships. You can even give them move to and attack orders."

I just tried that for sats, bases, and mines. None of them worked. I gave them engine ability, one engine per move, and allowed them to use engines. In the design screen, it said that they had a move of three, but when it came time to give orders, nothing happened. 1.49

RE: resupply:
Looks like I was wrong. Quantum Reactors and bases produce a finite (but very large) amount of supplies. Moreover, they "taper off". My supplymon class had one Ion Engine (modded- stores 64 supplies, uses 63k) and a master computer. When I fleeted the expeneded supplymons with a "resupplymon" (supplymon with quantum reactor) or a base, they gained 20k each on the first turn, 13k on the next, and a dimishing value thereafter. This was NOT affected by the number of depleted ships in the fleet- one ship was the same as two. A normal ship was brought up to supply immediately- but it only had 2500 supply, so the quantum limit may not have affected it. To test that, I fleeted 20 normal ships with a single resupplymon, each ship got 2857/3000 supplies, for a total of 57140 supplies. So it looks like the "quantum limit" is per SHIP, not per fleet. It can't fill up more than a certain defined amount per turn, or more than a certain percentage of the remaining supply. Bug or feature?

The amount of supples carried by the supply ship had no effect (I did one with a MC, quantum engine baseship, every other KT with supply storage- same effect as without the storage)

When I sent the depleted Supplymons to a resupply depot, they gained 1000 supply immediately, then the rest the next turn. When I sent a depleted normal ship to a resupply depot, it gained 2450 (out of 2500) supply at once, then the remaining 50 the next turn. Moving 20 normal ships onto a resupply depot resulted in a similar effect- 59940 supplies out of 60k immediately, the rest the next turn. Even stranger, if I set up a multiple-turn move order, the ships got that amount of supplies. If I moved them onto the resupply depot manually, they got less- 58800. Using the resupply order had the same effect- if they arrived "same turn", they got less supplies. Probably that movement thing Q talked about here.

Next I fleeted a large number of normal ships (20) with one depleted supplymon. The supply was evenly spread out among the fleet, giving every ship 2450.

This was all done in sequential mode, not simultanious.

Side note: while testing this, one of my stars went unstable, to blow in 30 turns. The interesting part is, the star that went unstable had the "star unstable" ability attached to it. Could THAT be what that ability does?

Phoenix-D

[geoschmo]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I just tried that for sats, bases, and mines. None of them worked. I gave them engine ability, one engine per move, and allowed them to use engines. In the design screen, it said that they had a move of three, but when it came time to give orders, nothing happened. 1.49<hr></blockquote>Hmmm, I don't know Phoenix. I know it works for bases. You are correct that it doesn't work for sats and mines though. In Devnull mod we gave the bases a component that would give them combat movement only. We had to change stuff around though because we did NOT want them to have standard movement and they were getting it when we allowed them to use engines for combat movment.

I'll have to dig out my notes...

Geoschmo

[ 17 February 2002: Message edited by: geoschmo ]</p>

[geoschmo]

Phoenix,

I just confirmed movement works for bases. You just have to make the following changes to the vehiclesize.txt file.

Engines Per Move := 1 (or whatever)
Requirement Uses Engines := True
Requirement Max Engines := 6 (or whatever)

Geoschmo

[Phoenix-D]

I did that. Hmmmmmmmm. Maybe I forgot to change the "engines per move"..

Phoenix-D

[Deathstalker]

Re: Base engines, the only way I ever got a base to move was by modding the vehicle.txt to give the base 'combat movement' of 2. So the base could actually move during combat but not at any other time. Tried the same trick with sats but it would not work. Never have gotten the normal engines to work with bases, the modd I created a while back (the 'D-Mod') had organic engines that regenerated, due to this ability the AI was adding them as organic armor to bases, they never moved and when I took control of the AI I could not move them either.

Don't know if this helps or confuses the issue at hand but thought I'd but my .02$ in here (being that that's Canadian its worth less I guess.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

[mac5732]

Q, uncloaked ships in orbit, both in fleets or as individual ships.

just some ideas mac