Technology Trade (again)

[PsychoTechFreak]

To improve your race utterly fast, trade techs, ok ?

Observation: ai_politics.txt, bottom lines somewhere is a per cent modifier for allied races, e.g. accept trade with 80% receive value of the given stuff. Several TDM races use extremely high values, like 30000% or more, obviously to avoid the trades?

If you trade with a 80% race,it is even possible to give 40000 minerals to receive a 50000 point tech, like physics 1.

Now to the problem, how do I trade for the higher techs like physics 2 ? Yes, I have tried to put physics twice into the box, but the result has been:

-resources transferred (my 80000 minerals *sniff*)
-technology received, but sire, physics 1 is worthless, because we already know everything about it

And another message:
-technology received, but sire, physics 1 is worthless, because we already know everything about it

*gngngngngngn*

[Suicide Junkie]

The ones you're trading with have to have physics 2. You're probably trying to trade with a race that only has physics 1 so far...

[PsychoTechFreak]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
The ones you're trading with have to have physics 2. You're probably trying to trade with a race that only has physics 1 so far...<hr></blockquote>

If this would be true, then the resources should not have been transferred. Because I have seen another issue where the other race was not able to deliver a specific tech, and they said something like : Sorry, no deal possible, we do not have what you want, and the resources have not been transferred in this case.

[Suicide Junkie]

Theres no reason why they can't accept the trade.

"Sure, we'll show you what we know about peeling bananas for 40K minerals"
It dosen't matter that you already know the tech, or are even more advanced that they are.

If you ask for something like psychic studies, which the race has zero levels in, then the AI will probably reject the deal. Otherwise, they'll be happy to teach remedial lessons in projectile weapons 101 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Phoenix-D]

"If this would be true, then the resources should not have been transferred. Because"

Hey, if you can scam the AI, shouldn't the AI be able to scam you? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Phoenix-D

[Gryphin]

For the most part I trade:
In the early game, Organics for Minerals
After I have colonized, (or control) all of the colonizable planets in my sphere of influance, I will trade One type of Colonizable Tech for another. To date, no AI has declined.

[PsychoTechFreak]

Now I know it for sure, I have done some checks with known values... and SJ you are (partially) right:

If e.g. race 2 has got physics 2, then the trade fails completely.
If race 2 has not got physics 2, then the "give package" of race 1 is gifted to race 2, and race 1 gets physics 1 + physics 1 which is worthless.

@phoenix-d: Hey, if you can scam the AI, shouldn't the AI be able to scam you? &lt;http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin/images/icons/icon10.gif&gt;

I agree.

@gryphin: Yes, it works for the basic techs, but level 2 and above seem to be a problem.

[capnq]

I have been told that to trade multiple levels of technology, you have to put it in the deal multiple times (which seems to contradict the manual). I have made successful trades doing it this way.

[Suicide Junkie]

Capnq:
If by that you mean:
"Trade you level 2 AND 3 in physics for levels 2 through 5 in DUC tech"
Then, you'd have to offer two copies of "physics" for four copies of "Projectile weapons"

EDIT: make that four copies, since you start with level 1 in Projectile weapons.

[ 27 February 2002: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]</p>

[capnq]

No, I meant "Trade you Physics 2 for Projectile Weapons 4" comes out as

Offer:
Physics
Physics

Want:
Projectile Weapons
Projectile Weapons
Projectile Weapons
Projectile Weapons

to use your example. That's why I said it contradicts the manual.

[Suicide Junkie]

Which are you saying is the way it actually works?

From what I see, it works exactly like a deconstruct/analyse thing, where you have x copies of some component requiring tech A, and y copies of some other component requiring tech B.
(All on separate "ships" for analysing, of course)

[PsychoTechFreak]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by capnq:
I have been told that to trade multiple levels of technology, you have to put it in the deal multiple times (which seems to contradict the manual). I have made successful trades doing it this way.<hr></blockquote>

In which Version have you made the trades successfully, 1.49 ?

[QuarianRex]

I have done trades like this successfully in the gold demo. It seems to work fine.

[capnq]

The game where I was told this was necessary was back in 1.41. While I was testing this in 1.49, I finally twigged on what you meant in your deconstruct analogy, and discovered I was partly wrong.

Two examples from my testing:

Race A has Ship Construction 2, Projectile Weapons 4.

Race B has Ship Construction 3, Projectile Weapons 1.

If A proposes

Give:
Projectile Weapons

Want:
Ship Construction

and B accepts, A gets Ship Construction 3 and B gets Projectile Weapons 2. (This is the part I thought contradicted the manual, but when I couldn't find where I'd read what I thought it said, I realized I was thinking of another game entirely. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif )

If A wants to give B Projectile Weapons 4, he has to offer

Give:
Projectile Weapons
Projectile Weapons
Projectile Weapons

[PsychoTechFreak]

Either I don't get it, or I am too stupid/blind, I am not able to trade the higher techs (except the basic techs) in ver 1.49. Is there a change to the earlier Versions ? I have tried almost everything now, e.g. gas colonization tech against DUC III (I know it is a bad deal), no chance.

[ 02 March 2002: Message edited by: PsychoTechFreak ]</p>

[Suicide Junkie]

PTF:
What tech level do both sides have, and what is the offer?
Also, what response do you get?

[ 02 March 2002: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]</p>

[PsychoTechFreak]

I have got a trade and research alliance with the Space Vikings (AI controlled), usually they accept every trade, the basic techs are no problem to get, e.g. physics 1 for 40,000 minerals.

1) I have got Physics 1, for Physics 2 I would need 100,000 RPs. The AI has got Physics level 1, too.
Give has been: 100,000 minerals; Want has been: Physics, Physics
Answer: We accept your generous offer.
Transfer: 100,000 minerals, got: Physics 1, Physics 1 (worthless)

That means, if the AI has got the same Tech level, your Give-Package is transferred and you get nothing of worth.

After that I have controlled the AI to research Physics 2, then:

2) Give has been: 200,000 minerals; Want has been: Physics
Answer: By Odin, we like what you offer. We must decline for now, but I think it is time that we loot your planets.
Transfer: nothing.

Funny, they decline although they would get 200,000 for the price of 100,000 and they usually accept at 80%.

Then I have turned of the Vikings politics minister, to manually control the trade.

3) Give has been: 200,000 minerals; Want has been: Physics
I manually forced the Vikings to accept, to see what I would get:
Transfer: 200,000 minerals and I finally have got Physics 2 !

I have tested this with several other AIs also (military alliances), same result.
Ok, good news is, in a multiplayer game the trades would be possible, just the AIs would always decline Tech trades of the higher levels.

EDIT: Ah, now I understand capnq's post, if I want physics 3 and I am on physics 1 then I would have to enter:

Physics
Physics

Tricky. I will check that next time.

[ 02 March 2002: Message edited by: PsychoTechFreak ]</p>

[PsychoTechFreak]

The 2nd test has worked, multiplayer game, I am on ship construction 1, the other race is on level 4, I ask for:

ship construction
ship construction
ship construction

And get all the Tech levels up to level 4.

There is another tricky issue about this, you never know, for what level the other race is asking for unless you don't know on what level it currently is.

If race A is on Physics 2 and it asks for:

Physics

Then it would actually ask for Physics 3, right ? But race B does not know that, it could be Physics 1 also which makes a lot of difference in the values of the trades.

[tesco samoa]

a nice way to fix this problem would be an additional tag on the trading items.... like select level...

[PsychoTechFreak]

I guess this is not a new finding, but the AI can also easily be cheated with the racial techs. You give your Organic Tech 1 to an AI without this racial trait and you get Physics 1, next turn you can repeat this and you get every 50,000 RP Tech for low.

Edit: I guess this is why I have found several AI entries with extremely large percentages for the trades (e.g. 30,000 %), because one could also get 50,000 minerals for nothing.

[ 04 March 2002: Message edited by: PsychoTechFreak ]</p>

[PsychoTechFreak]

Question to AI Modders:

Regarding my Last post. Is this the reason why some of you have increased the trade percentages to high values, because the AI cannot determine if it can make use of a racial tech ?

[Mephisto]

Actually, you can cheat the AI with trades quite easily. For example, you could give an early AI Anti-Proton-Beams level 1. As higher level APBs are way down the research list the AI will now use the weak APB for quite literally 100 of turns where it was supposed to use PPBs until the high APBs are researched. To prevent this, I have increased the trade value requirements for my AIs. I have also taken some precautions that the AI will not design useless ships but it is not fool proof.

[PsychoTechFreak]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by [K126]Mephisto:
...I have also taken some precautions that the AI will not design useless ships but it is not fool proof.<hr></blockquote>

Sounds interesting, I will take a closer look into your shipdesigns tonight!