Disturbing Facts

[Atrocities]

I have copied this from the Stars Supernova Forum (http://www.starbasedelta.com/ubb/Forum2/SHTML/000245-3.shtml#119) regarding their look for a publisher. This is about copy protection and such.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>"It's not really copy protection, it's just cool - if you saw one, you'd want it. It's shiny gloss black on matt card. Basically, we don't believe we can defeat piracy - you just can't stop it. However, we want the customers to actually enjoy holding the product. We take a lot of care over production, and we hope that people - like yourself - appreciate the benefit. Consequently, rather than simply copying the game people will want to purchase it. In case your interested, let me tell you a couple of facts. We have sold around 2000 copies of Uplink, however there have been 12000 downloads of the patch. So, for every one copy we sell, 6 are being played.

I do find this a little disappointing, as the money we charge goes straight to us: the developer. There is no middleman (bar the internet charges) and £15 is dirt cheap for a game the standard of Uplink. I'm not slating piracy - half my CDs are copied, but equally I believe there is a difference between ripping of a massive corporation, who have hardly contributed at all to the actual art, and stealing from the artists themselves."<hr></blockquote>

My god, 2000 sold and 10,000 pirated! That is just unreal.... or is it?? How many pirated Version of SEIV Gold are now in circulation? I'll venture a guess of something on the order of 3 to 1. 3 copies to 1 original disk. And the Gold Version JUST came out.

[Suicide Junkie]

Of course that is a worst case 10K.
I know that I've downloaded the Patches multiple times. Once when it comes out, and again when I tried reinstalling to fix a problem. Then again, when I had to go BACK a Version in order to play a savegame.
Now, I just keep all the patches I need in a 100MB (for Beta) superzip.

I'm not saying that its insignificant, but it is probably not quite as bad as it seems.

[PvK]

Ya or one for work and one for the office. If they're having trouble downloading the whole thing, they might do it more than once. Download failures, etc.

[Phoenix-D]

"I'm not slating piracy - half my CDs are copied, but equally I believe there is a difference between ripping of a massive corporation, who have hardly contributed at all to the actual art, and stealing from the artists themselves.""

Pot, here's kettle.

"YOU'RE BLACK!"

WTF *is* uplink, anyway?

Phoenix-D

[ZeroAdunn]

Ya that was a little odd. This guy seems to think he's robin hood or something. Steeling is steeling, either do it or don't, there's no in between.

[Mephisto]

OMG! 20:1???? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

[disabled]

An old friend of mine, he's in the Army right now, used to write programs. He had a problem with pirating of the beta, so I suggested a way he used to track the Users and people that pirated his beta copies by incorporating a Version checker in the game to find and download updates on his site.

Since each beta user had been assigned different passwords to run the beta, the Version checker could compare the passwords to a list he had stored Online. If the passwords didn't match, the beta would uninstall itself and send information to him on the violater. On top of that, it would write a thing into several places in the registry to not allow another install of the beta. He was clever in the registry code as it was made to look like standard system info that would be missed unless you looked for it.

Back to the topic at hand. Could a modification of this system be used. Perhaps the CD is required for play using the music tracks as the check and putting a similar 'check for update' system?

I dunno, but it's an idea I feel has merit (even if the original concept is borderline overkill)

[dumbluck]

There are two main problems with requiring the CD to be in the machine to play:

1. The ease with which practically anyone now can burn 20 copies of his/her original SE4 disk.

2. There are times when it is convenient to not be required to have the CD in the machine to play. (i.e. multiplayer on a LAN against a few friends that haven't bought the game (but will as soon as they get a taste of how great the game is http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ))

[mottlee]

I'll have you know that Every copy of SEIII, SEIV and SEIV Gold I still have the Disk of each one I find it apalling (?) that people will do this (tho in my younger day I may have http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif )

[Tim Brooks]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> How many pirated Version of SEIV Gold are now in circulation? <hr></blockquote>

It's hard to track this. We believe that SEIV Original was pirated at 20 to 1. That is based on numbers we could track and then figuring we were only finding a small percentage.

It really hurts. Just think of what Malfador and Shrapnel would be able to bring to you, if we had just 20% of those pirated in sales.

[Tim Brooks]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> How many pirated Version of SEIV Gold are now in circulation? <hr></blockquote>

It's hard to track this. We believe that SEIV Original was pirated at 20 to 1. That is based on numbers we could track and then figuring we were only finding a small percentage.

It really hurts. Just think of what Malfador and Shrapnel would be able to bring to you, if we had just 20% of those pirated in sales.

[Atrocities]

Right now one of the best anti-pirate software equiped games out is Tribes 2. To date, Sierra has prevented nearly a million attempted thefts of Tribes 2. To my knowledge, it is nearly next to impossible to break their anti-theft system as it works off of a CD specific code that must registar with the master server in order to play. If the key is duplicated, then the second on attemp will forfit the key, and the person who owns the disk originally will have to contact Sierra to get a new key. Thats when they bust em.

Keys can not be "randomly" generated because no un-registared key will be accepted into the system. So in order to play the game, you have to registar it. If you make copies, you can use them, so long as you do not attempt to use more than one at a time.

Nice set up if you ask me.

[ZeroAdunn]

Yes, but it wouldn't work for games that can be played offline, because many people will buy them to play offline.

[Cylapse]

*laughs* Pirating IS pirating, but I cant say that I am 100% against it. In my youth I didnt have **** for money, and honestly my parents wouldnt have given two ****s to assist in the situation.. (this was some, like 5-6 years ago, I was like 15) So I had to make due, learning about coding in C/C++, html, java, and eventually reversing that process to learn about the underground **** that you all despise today *LOL* I dont blame you though. Especially now that Im a grown man who handles his own ****.

Damn straight I paid for SE4... but honestly, I cant say I paid for SE3 back then, it was given to me on a shiney CD-R some years back. Not that I could have paid for it if I had wanted to anyway.

But on the brighter side, that act of piracy allowed me to taste a game that would lay a devastating parasite within my mind *lol* And its because of that that I even bothered to look at SE4 when it was coming around... Seeings how I am not some 15 year old punk anymore, and I can hold my own job and apt, I outgrew the whole stealing software thing, and have a totally legit copy of SE4 Gold... It would be nice to turn the tables around and make due somehow by BUYING an old copy of SE3 (Havent played that in sooo long - lost the cd as well), but that seems a moot point now.

I suppose the moral is this - Stealing is stealing, and YES its wrong, but I wouldnt condemn that dude. I aint no damned Robin Hood myself but I'll tell you this - Had I never gotten ahold of that copy of SE3 a few years ago, I would have never even HEARD about the Demo to part 4, and never had downloaded it (in its 28 mb glory), and Never, ever have purchased it.... So think what you will, but I havta thank the darker past for the brighter future, so to speak http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

SE4 is fabulous, and it just feels better knowing you can play without fear of being charged with theft *LMAO*

PS - (well, I cant say Im against it if ya steal from Microsoft *LMAO* - **** those fags)

----EDIT----
By the way... I am not advocating piracy or defending it, justifying it or anything of that nature... I am merely offering my viewpoint some years ago and recounting the series of events that lead to my own sense of redemption *lol*
Rest assured I would never even post this crap unless I had felt that I somehow leveled the scales a bit by purchasing SEIVG...I mean it is moderated by Shrapnel and MM *LOL* Just to clarify that I am not some Butt-Pirate supporter *LMAO*
But hey - **** happens. Ya do stupid ****. I'm just glad I never let it get outta hand, especially now that Im older.

[ 21 March 2002: Message edited by: Cynapse ]</p>

[Gryphin]

Hmm, Cynapse,
Since you mention you wish you could "It would be nice to turn the tables around and make due somehow by BUYING an old copy of SE3 ", what about buying a second copy of SE IV Gold and breaking it?
Note: I am human and shall not cast the first stone.

[Cylapse]

*LOL* I like that... sadly after spending $50 the first time, to simply shatter it wouldn't feel right...I'd rather send it back than simply destroy it *l* MM doesnt sell SE3 as it is anymore?
There were a few things I found that I liked better about it, and it would be nice to get that retro feel again...

I dont suppose anyone would sell their original SE3? *LOL* Guess that's pretty far fetched.

[Cylapse]

*LOL* I like that... sadly after spending $50 the first time, to simply shatter it wouldn't feel right...I'd rather send it back than simply destroy it *l* MM doesnt sell SE3 as it is anymore?
There were a few things I found that I liked better about it, and it would be nice to get that retro feel again...

I dont suppose anyone would sell their original SE3? *LOL* Guess that's pretty far fetched.

Hate to trash my own rep on this forum - But I had to be honest in my posting.

[Gryphin]

Foks, correct me if I'm wrong, I seem to recall that SE III was downloaded and you purchased an "unlocking" code. I can't find an SE III CD anywhere.

Cynapse, I'm sure MM would take you up on that offer.
BTW: I am not without sin, but I do own a licenced copy of WinZip and a few other shareware programs.

[Cylapse]

That explains a few things then, I was wondering why I couldnt find it on Shrapnel or anywhere for sale Online. Coz after playing the demo of SE4 for the first time in August of 2001 (before gold came out and when the DL was only 18mb) I honestly was thinking about saying screw part 4 and I tried finding SE3... but eventually I realized that 4 was indeed better, and I was just being a picky lil **** about it *LOL*

If MM still has it on their site and they are willing to sell a copy - Hey, I feel guilty *LOL* No ****en ****, and would buy a copy of SE3 in a heartbeat. Then, if its all good with Aaron, I'd pay, take the cripped Version of SE3 and just assume never ever receive the unlock code... Its only fair, ya know?

[rdouglass]

Yeah, that's how I got mine (SEIII), thru download and unlocking code. However, ISTR hearing of a CD that had SEIII, SEII, (and maybe SEI) - although I'm not positive...

[Phoenix-D]

http://www.malfador.com/se3order.html

there you go http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Phoenix-D

[Growltigga]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Gryphin:
Foks, correct me if I'm wrong, I seem to recall that SE III was downloaded and you purchased an "unlocking" code. I can't find an SE III CD anywhere.<hr></blockquote>

Ah, a confession at Last - Le Chevalier du Gryphin admits that he has prior experience of the Space Empire series before Le Chat bashing session starts

You cad http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Cylapse]

Se2?... Se1? *LOL*
Those I gotta see...for some reason I cant help but get the image of a low-budget sci-fi show (like the original star trek) when I think of what the game must have looked like before SEIII... *lol* No offence to MM or anything, I honestly have no idea what the first two were like... Have heard of 2 before but it sounds too old... Se1 I would like to see just for the sake of it. To see the brainchild that started it all...

[Cylapse]

Phoenix! Thank you...
Perhaps now I can work on climbing out of this rather sizable hole I've dug myself http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Baron Munchausen]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by rdouglass:
Yeah, that's how I got mine (SEIII), thru download and unlocking code. However, ISTR hearing of a CD that had SEIII, SEII, (and maybe SEI) - although I'm not positive...<hr></blockquote>

There is a CD called "The Space Empires Collection" which was originally created by a third party. It contains Both SE III and SE II as well as a simple strategy guide, and even the 'original' SE! MM now offers it for sale themselves. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[disabled]

There is a lot of SE1 & 2 screenshots and stuff at SE.org i think

[ June 14, 2003, 18:35: Message edited by: General Talashar ]

[ZeroAdunn]

Cynapse,
Don't get me wrong, I'm not condemning him for pirating, I just find a problem with people who like to look down on others when they themselves commit the same crimes. What's even worse is this guy is in the industry.

I would never condemn someone for pirating, I've done my fair share of pirating, and everyone has stolen in some form or another at some time, there's just no denying it. Heck, thats how I got into the SE series.

[tesco samoa]

http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,51245,00.html

Nice article....

[capnq]

The biggest part of the problem is the attitude that it's all right to steal something if you don't have the money to pay for it, especially it you think that the thing you want is overpriced. There's no way to fix that attitude with legislation.

[wr8th]

Cap,

The point you make is well taken. Morality is not legislatible. But it seems to be almost necessary when what morality that does exist is as malleable as silly putty in order to fit the "perceived needs" of the miscreant.

Whoah, I didn't mean to go off on that tangent. Sorry folks.

[Spoo]

I think things should stay as they are. Would it really be in our best interests to disable our copying and filesharing technologies? Those people who want to pirate will continue to do so; It might require cracking software protection or modifying hardware, but I'm sure they'll figure it out. If software companies come up with a near unbreakable copy protection, great for them. They should. However, hardware should not be crippled. Suppose all future CD burners refuse to burn CD's half the time. Will I go out and buy one? Nope. I'll use my outdated old one, and it'll be a pain in the ***.

[PvK]

Well, the SE4 forum does seem like a good place to mention the following concept. Supose you have two civilizations (who don't know of each other). They both develop computer technology like we have today, and both produce lots of useful and entertaining programs and media.

The difference is, that one civilization freely allows sharing all these programs and media. Authorship fraud is not allowed, and authors are rewarded for their work based on the amount of use and praise registered by the customers, through taxes and an official praise registration center.

The other civilization is more like ours. Corporations own and control most development, try to control and enforce duplication and even usage rights, and claim as much of the profits for their stockholders as possible.

Which civilization is going to be more productive and happy? I would say, definitely the first one.

My question is, how to change the basic assumptions. Maybe start with a non-profit organization that would take a membership fee and disburse it to authors whose products were used and praised.

How is this different from a conventional publisher? Well, customers would pay a subscription, and then be able to freely download all of that publisher's products. Electronic duplication and distribution slashes that overhead, and with enough titles, it can become very tempting to Subscribe. In theory, the cost of a subscription could be kept low and affordable, because the multiplied value of being able to use all of the products would mean that many more people would Subscribe than would otherwise buy individual products. The problems are that it probably requires a certain critical mass to succeed, both in terms of amount/quantity of content, and amount of Subscribers.

PvK

[Phoenix-D]

Right now I'm not exactly too keen on either side. Piracy is bad, but some of the people trying to prevent it are worse.

Check this.

http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,51274,00.html

Now, the security requiement would be open source. That's good. But it would have to be incorperated into EVERY program and device capable of tranfering files. That means even PBW and SE4 would have to put this code in. Hell, even low-level programs like a cheapie Ping program would have to have it.

Another telling point: one Disney exce has gone so far as to say there's *no such thing as free use*. No biggie, you might think. Wrong. See, if there's no free use, you can't even write a review without their permission. And will they let a negative review go? Not likely.

Phoenix-D

[Arak Koba]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by PvK:
Well, the SE4 forum does seem like a good place to mention the following concept. Supose you have two civilizations ...They both develop computer technology like we have today, and both produce lots ...
The difference is, that one civilization freely allows sharing all these programs and media. ...
. Well, customers would pay a subscription, and then be able to freely download all of that publisher's products. PvK<hr></blockquote>


You just described Communism versus Capitalism.

[disabled]

All this crap about restricting the use of technology down to the point where solitare will have an armed guard standing next to it, well..

It will discourage companies, publishers, and even little developers from even trying to do anything.

What's next, pay-per-click web?

Honestly, Let's not seek the Democratic solution or the Republican Solution. Let's all find the RIGHT solution.

[Lupusman]

Just for people's info, I just searched through Kazaa for any Space Empires game, and found nothing. Found Stars! though, crappy game . .

And just to tell Shrapnel, if you are going by patch downloads, I myself got the Lastest patch no less than five different times.

[Richard]

No we don't go by patch downloads, we have very accurate ways of finding out what the piracy rates are for our games. And they are pretty bad. But they are pretty bad for everyone...

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lupusman:
Just for people's info, I just searched through Kazaa for any Space Empires game, and found nothing. Found Stars! though, crappy game . .

And just to tell Shrapnel, if you are going by patch downloads, I myself got the Lastest patch no less than five different times.<hr></blockquote>

[PvK]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Arak Koba:

You just described Communism versus Capitalism.<hr></blockquote>

Not at all. Not even Socialism versus Capitalism. Half of what I described is very close to what some of these mega media corps are going for: selling subscriptions to a whole range of media (e.g. cable TV). They're just still hung up about copyright enforcement. The bad part is that they probably are opposed to the other part of what I was talking about, which is compensating mostly the people that actually create the content, and doing it on the basis of customer satisfaction.

PvK

[disabled]

A drastic option I touched on earlier: Secretly put a destructive line of code into the program that will...

1.) Corrupt the Game master files.
2.) Corrupt all related game files.
3.) Place several (DOZEN) references in the registry blocking another install of the program.
4.) Encrypt the Registry Install blocks.
5.) Force User Registration of the program with Machine Code, CD Code, etc. This info should also be encrypted.

Just a few more pennies.

[tesco samoa]

The problem with Locking down hardware and software is that they punish the Users... All anti-pircy techniques will be broken. Who is punished then. The people who pay for the product.

Wheels and manual look up do not work. They're a pain. And once you lose that stuff it is a pain to replace.

And who owns the Registry? The user or companies.

I like to know what is going in there so if you encrypt it I think I would skip the product.

Piracy is a problem, but is also a reality. It will happen. Do you design games for a casual user who is going to play it a few times or do you design games for the people who play them over and over. Look at those people and you will see they purchase the programs because they want that product to continue having a life.

Question I would like to ask the software companies is why do they not go after a levy like the RIAA did in Canada on all blank media that is sold. They may as well beat the Movie Companies to the punch.

Content is king. and this copyright/piracy battle is going to screw us all in the long run.

Because the Content Companies are only looking out in 'our best interests'

[Atrocities]

Piracy is as wide spread as cheating in multiplayer games. Its a sad sick state of affairs when you log onto a Half-Life Counterstrike server and get killed by a cheater who is using a pirated copy of the game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif Us honest folks can't win to save our asses.

[Lisif Deoral]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Richard:
No we don't go by patch downloads, we have very accurate ways of finding out what the piracy rates are for our games.<hr></blockquote>

I was wondering if the "ways" include getting some stats from this bulletin board... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

And, no, I bought the game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Atrocities]

I know how you do that too Richard, it set my firewall off. Very clever. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Fyron]

Huh? What do they do that set off your firewall?

[Richard]

We don't trasmit anything from your computer, the game automatically tried to phone out to make sure you have a net connection.

Sending out info from a game is illegal, Bliizard got in a lot of trouble for it and we certaintly wouldn't repeat that.

No we do a lot of research on the "warez" scene, that's all.

[Fyron]

Ok, just making sure.

[Atrocities]

Just making sure. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Baron Munchausen]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Richard:
We don't trasmit anything from your computer, the game automatically tried to phone out to make sure you have a net connection.

Sending out info from a game is illegal, Bliizard got in a lot of trouble for it and we certaintly wouldn't repeat that.

No we do a lot of research on the "warez" scene, that's all.<hr></blockquote>

Heh... after all, how do the 'warez kiddiez' know if you're a software publisher checking up on them? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[PvK]

Even if you manage to count the number of times people download a game from warez sites, those may be copyright violations, but they don't equate to lost sales. Many people pirate games to check them out. Some of them probably continue to use the pirated Version and would have bought it if they couldn't pirate it, but I'd think that would be a rather small fraction compared to the number who download the pirated Version but don't get into it, and would never have bought it, or do get into it, and end up buying a legit copy.

PvK

[tesco samoa]

PVK I agree with you there.

[disabled]

Something I don't get is that an angency like the FBI, for example, could spare a few agents to just surf the net, find warez sites, make a few calls, and shut them down.

I do it to Bandwidth theives when they do it.

Also, a little heads up. I've looked at SE.org's keyword report. 250 hits since March 1 for warez and cracks. That was a low month.

I do know many of them are hosted out of the US, but surely organizations like InterPol can also help out.

EDIT: speeeling errorrrs fyxied.

[ 25 March 2002: Message edited by: Hadrian Aventine ]</p>

[Suicide Junkie]

I'm quite surprised:
My homepage has dropped quite far down on the % of searches for illegal downloads.

It used to be something like 60% "full download" type things. That is down to 1.5%
The more ambiguous "SE4 gold" search is 25%, though.
71% is now actually searches for techs, mods and P&N! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
I'm not sure how I managed 2% of my search engine (google!) hits from "homemade weapons make". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

All out of 400 google hits.

[LazarusLong42]

*WARNING*: Long-windedness ahead.

I suspect no one's likely to care about my two cents' worth, but I always enjoy expounding on my feelings about IP issues and the problems surrounding them.

Problem 1: No matter what people want to believe, all IP is not equal.

A computer program is a significantly different entity from a short story, which is different from a song, a movie, a poem, a news article, sheet music, etc. The sale of programming IP very rarely, I suspect, has anything to do with performance rights and roalties.

The RIAA would tend to have you believe that all IP is the same and ought to be protected in exactly the same manner. But see my comments on the RIAA later.

Problem 2: So-called "Fair Use" isn't. And the reason it isn't fair is that it's basically a moral issue, rather than a legal one, and as several people have noted, you can't legislate morality.

Is it Fair Use for me to install SE4 on a friend's computer so I can play multiplayer against him? What about just to demonstrate the game to him? Neither of these is legal, but it's tough to determine whether either is moral.

In the same sense, if I write a short story and it's published in (I'm dreaming here, indulge me) Fantasy and Science Fiction, is it Fair Use for a reader of F&SF to copy his magazine to hand the story to a friend? Is it Fair Use to quote significant portions of the story for literary crticism?

Problem 3: Everybody wants a slice of the pie.

The companies that make up the RIAA are probably the largest culprits here. Let's face it: musicians earn something like ten cents out of the $15 you pay for their CD at Best Buy. Sure, if it goes gold, they start to make some money, but more of their income has to be derived from ticket sales to concerts... and even then, they're splitting the proceeds with how many others?

The same sort of thing is true in other industries, though. On that same short story sale to F&SF (indulge my dreaming another moment), I would earn 6 cents a word--call it $300. The magazine has a circulation of around 100k at $3 a copy--$300,000 gross an issue. You do the math.

Programming has actually done all right in this respect. While self-publishing is severely frowned upon in the fiction world (generally considered career suicide), and the RIAA continually looks to defeat music self-publishing, self-publishing of computer programs has exploded with the advent of the internet. Shrapnel is an example of what I might call "coordinated self-publishing"--while Shrapnel may be the publisher of the game, unlike most "publishers", they aren't taking the largest slice of the incoming money.

Problem 4: Piracy is never going away.

This is a simple fact that anyone who deals with IP is going to have to get accustomed to. You can create ridiculously complex copy-protection schemes, and *someone* out there is going to break them.

Personally, I'd rather do what Shrapnel has done: refrain from spending the money on the copy protection, and accept the piracy as a loss to be dealt with... if it is, in fact, a loss. Because it's imposible to track how many pirated copies of SE4 were downloaded simply *because they could be*, played once by some script kiddie who understands FPS but has never played a game of chess in his life, then deleted.

------------

All of these are issue which will likely never be resolved. I'm firmly against piracy, being a small-time creator of IP myself. But all the RIAA's, the Harlan Ellisons (http://harlanellison.com/kick/), the Tasini decisions (http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/00pdf/00-201.pdf), and the copy protection are, in the end, *not going to stop it*.

OK. I'll shut up now. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Eric Snyder II
(LazarusLong42)

[Wardad]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Richard:
We don't trasmit anything from your computer, the game automatically tried to phone out to make sure you have a net connection.<hr></blockquote>

So that's why my home system wouldn't run GOLD demo.
Since I do not have internet at home, I installed WIN98 without the Communications package. It's not your typical install.
A real bummer for anyone else in the same fix. Who are they going to call?

--------------------------

UPGRADES HAPPEN!!!

--------------------------

[tesco samoa]

Something to think about.

Soon in USA the following situation will occur

1. It will be legal to own a hand gun but illegal to own a portable hard drive.

Think about that.

Also think about the fact that all Americans are guilty of breaking any law with regards to Copy right protection.

[Texfire]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by tesco samoa:
Something to think about.

Soon in USA the following situation will occur

1. It will be legal to own a hand gun but illegal to own a portable hard drive.

Also think about the fact that all Americans are guilty of breaking any law with regards to Copy right protection.<hr></blockquote>

Where do you come up with this interesting assertion and what exactly do you mean by it?

Texfire

[wr8th]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by tesco samoa:
Something to think about.

Soon in USA the following situation will occur

1. It will be legal to own a hand gun but illegal to own a portable hard drive.

Think about that.

<hr></blockquote>

Should read:

1. As with firearms, soon only those who are well-connected will be able to own a portable hard drive.

Both curtailments are cause for concern.

[ 27 March 2002: Message edited by: wr8th ]</p>

[Cyrien]

It is a conflict between defense and offense. History shows that only temporary gains are possible on either side. You gain what seems the perfect defense and then someone has the perfect weapon to break the perfect defense. As others have already said, you can't make something pirate proof, but you can try and educate your citizenry to make the correct and responsible decision. By the same argument though you need to educate your corporate leaders to do the same thing. So far neither side is really doing that and the few that do get crushed between the rock and the hard place.

A few quotes to finish my thoughts off.
_______
Those willing to give up a little liberty for a little security deserve neither security nor liberty.

Benjamin Franklin
_______
In the United States we value security more than freedom.

Hugh Daniels
_______
I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.

Thomas Jefferson to Archibald Stuart, 1791
_______
Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it.

George Bernard Shaw, Liberty
_______
The antidote for misuse of freedom of speech is more freedom of speech.

Molly Ivans
_______
They came for the communists, and I did not speak up because I wasn't a communist;
They came for the socialists, and I did not speak up because I was not a socialist;
They came for the union leaders, and I did not speak up because I wasn't a union leader;
They came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak up for me.

Martin Niemoller, 1892-1984
_______
We felt the effects of herb were so dangerous that it was better to lie to the american public to save them rather than tell them the truth...

Partnership for a Drug Free America
_______

The Last one is my personal favorite. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
Not because I support drug use but due to the feeling of others wanting to protect me from myself by whatever methods available.

It also serves as a reminder that even those with good intentions can walk the path to disaster.

[wr8th]

I'll add a couple:

"You live and you learn, or you don't live long." - Heinlien

"Liberty is a well armed lamb." - Benjamin Franklin

[Grayhorse]

Im glad Richard commented on game sending info back to co. I was a little worried there for a sec. When I got my original se4 gold, I burned a copy to play with. I try not to use original cds for scratchs and things. I did that once, and the original went bad. Had to go by the bLasted thing again. So now I make copies of all my games and use the copies. Its easier for me.

Piracy, is, unfortunately a way of things for gaming. I to wish game companys could develop a way to stop it, but alas, I dont think it is humanly possible at this juncture. Maybe in the future.

Note to Richard.....SE4 gold rocks. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Skulky]

i admit i priated GTA1 and 2 i later bought GTA 2 (i got them at hte same time) and i don't play GTA1 anymore. I pirated driver b/c hte demo didn't give me a good enought taste of the game to decide. I found out i hated it, uninstalled the pirated copy and never bought it. I got the SE3 demo, wow it was so good i kept playign new games until it stalemated at the tech line or i won. I got he SE4 demo and i bought the game a few weeks later.

Both of the Last two had good demos so i never felt the urge (and Shrapnel and MM are so cool, if i could pirate windows i would b/c i HATE microsoft) to get the whole game to test it out.

And also think that a person who pirates a game and never buys it probably wouldn't ever buy it, so its not really money lost. I let my friend try SE4 (the full Version) and after about a month he purchased the CD to support the company, and he is scrappign together allowance for GOLD.

On the drug use, i condone marijuana use in a safe manner. I mean we consider alcohol and tobacco safe so i can't see why marijuana is so much worse. It's jus the fault of a bunch of politicans with sticks up their @$$'s. hope no one is incredibly offended those are my views, and dont' worry, i gave a speech for Communications on this so i have evidence. Just look at hte dutch for instance, they don't sit around stoned all day (most dont').

[Phoenix-D]

"could pirate windows i would b/c i HATE microsoft"

I'm not condoning piracy here, but that's a pretty funny statement. Considering that those games you mentioned have copy protection and Windows DOESN'T.

solution for internet piracy: make the game so freaking big no one bothers to download it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Phoenix-D

[Spoo]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> solution for internet piracy: make the game so freaking big no one bothers to download it <hr></blockquote>

Or just put the game on a DVD. By the time DVD burners are common, the game will probably be out of print. I guess the trade-off is that not everyone has a DVD-ROM drive.

[TerranC]

DVD Can still be pirated: I'm ashamed but I do have some DVD movies ripped and put uder DivX format in my computer... And It's surprising how much ripped DVD movies are out there.

The big file doesnt matter as long as they have some Download Programs or/with Broadband, As download programs allow you to pause when the server is at its worst and allow you to continue at your own pace when no one is looking around.

The Best Hope yet are CD keys, which can be overcome by malicious programs, such as CD key generators or Rip/Fake CD's.

In my opinion, if the programmers can Incorporate some Absolutely Crippling Flaws into the game, hard code it, and make it so that it can only be fixed by giving the registered distributors registered CD keys which then in turn give you a patch that would fix those problems.

Just my two cents...

[Suicide Junkie]

Your weak link is still any user who has the patch.

The only way to get complete control is to have proprietary hardware.
Package the games inside the machine, and make it self-destruct if the case is opened, too. Have it run on batteries, and use a tiny infrared port for input/output.
Lots of self-destruct triggers near that port, since it is a weak point.

[geoschmo]

Yes, proprietary hardware. Put the games on propreitary hardware. And don't sell them for goodness sake. You don't want people having access to them long enough to copy them. You can open up little shops and have these proprietary hardware consoles that people come in and pay a fee to play. Maybe call them "arcades" or something like that.

I don't know, it might work... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Geoschmo

[Suicide Junkie]

Ah, but remember the security guards. Can't let anyone get inside, and you don't want to have to buy new machines when they self-destruct.

[tesco samoa]

I worked in one in Ottawa. At the famous Billings Bridge Mall. What a hole.

1990 to 1992.

I had alot of classic games there.