Proportions 2.1 available

[PvK]

It can be downloaded from the Proportions web page. (http://g2.latibulum.com/pvk/proportions)

This is mainly a "fix-it" patch, with some nice improvements that don't really alter balance.

I recommend the new Tri-Polar quadrant type for new games (multi-player or vs. the AI).

In 2.2 I may change some of the facility values a bit, in particular the Solar Generator. I haven't finished reflecting on what I think would be best for those, and if I want to tweak others or not.

If there are players still running pre-2.0 games who are eager to get 1.6 (since they can't upgrade to 2.x), let me know.


Version 2.1:

* Corrected typos in Heavy Ship Mount.
* Fixed display problem with Psychic Eavesdropping and with
Industrial Sabotage.
* Adjusted costs of Economic Disruption and Resource Procurement,
and added another level called Economic Sabotage.
* Increased cost and reduced the effect of Food Contamination.
* Increased cost of Ground Contamination and Weather Disruptions,
and added other tech level requirements besides Applied Intel.
* Added a couple of advanced ship bombs to intel ops.
* Added Oleg's AI_General files to help the AI choose racial traits
more effectively in Proportions.
* Tweaked Abbidon AI_General file to make them choose racial traits
and characteristics even more effectively. Others will be tweaked
more in later Versions.
* Added Tri-Polar, Tri-Polar (Wide), and Strands system types. Tri-
Polar is the new recommended default.
* Added and adjusted values for terrain - storms and warp points
in particular now have more varied effects, especially in damage
amounts. This only affects newly-generated quadrants.
* Added some random events.
* Changed base max number of systems in a quadrant to 130. This can
be changed to players' tastes (up to 255) in settings.txt.
* Changed seeker damage resistance of light missiles, but I don't
think this currently has any effect on any existing PD weapons.
* Corrected cosmetic typo in Weapons Platform Command Centers.

[PvK]

Oh, I knew I was forgetting something, darn it! The list of changes lies - only the Abbidon were given a new AI_General file - I forgot to include Oleg's others - they'll be in the next one though, probably with tweaks.

PvK

[geoschmo]

Pvk,

Are you wanting to update the current game to 2.1?

Geoschmo

[PvK]

Hmm, I was thinking you wouldn't need to, but I guess it'd be good, if it's not hard. Most of the changes won't make any difference at this point. I guess someone could put a heavy ship mount on a Colony Ship... ;->

PvK

[Big Game Hunter]

I know this maybe a stupid question... but this is for SE iv gold correct?

[Cargus10]

Should we d/l 2.1 if we are playing in the PBW game, or hold off?

[Cornelius Scarecrow]

Wow...this mod just keeps getting better and better. I love it. :}

Just one pesky little question: When might those "upgradable" cities be making their debut? I'm itching to grow a megalopolis...

Regards:

Cornelius Scarecrow.

[PvK]

Big Game Hunter, yes, this is a mod for Gold (it wouldn't really work in 1.49, even if I tried to make it).

Cargus, let's just switch when geoschmo upgrades the PBW Version. You can go ahead and download it and try it out under a different folder name (like Proportions2.1), and then rename it when the PBW game gets switched. I think SE4 will notice if you try to load the turn with the wrong mod Version loaded. If you get the warning, switch to 2.1.

Cornelius, actually, the upgrade ability (as far as SE4 allows it) for cities is in 2.1. I just forgot to put it in the Version notes.

PvK

[oleg]

Minor issue:

In Facility.txt, there are two entries for Radioactive resourse storage III (extra one is just above the distribution center). I don't think it has any effect on game play except for double appearence in the construction list.

Regarding to the game I mentioned in Prop.2.0 thread, it quickly detiorated to World Peace. I have treaties with all AI I am in contact with and AI no longer fight among themselves either.

The surprisingly peaceful nature of even the most aggresive AI in Proportions mod is in fact a testimony how good is overall AI in SEIV:

The trade/research treaty in Proportions is extremly profitable, it will take years and years of colony development to match the benefits of trade. Apparently, AI understands it and beheaves accordingly.

[ 09 April 2002: Message edited by: oleg ]</p>

[mottlee]

OK.....where is it? would like to D/L also how big is it? (slow conn speed) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[oleg]

motlee:

scroll down to the very first post.
You must have Prop1.3 on SE IV Gold disk,
so all you need is a 2.1 patch from PvK web page. It is only 163K.

[mottlee]

Thanks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Will try to get tonight http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[geoschmo]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by oleg:
The surprisingly peaceful nature of even the most aggresive AI in Proportions mod is in fact a testimony how good is overall AI in SEIV:

The trade/research treaty in Proportions is extremly profitable, it will take years and years of colony development to match the benefits of trade. Apparently, AI understands it and beheaves accordingly.<hr></blockquote>

More likely the slower rate of expansion is what is controlling this. The AI typically are quite passive in standard SEIV until your territory starts butting up against theirs. Once you colonize in a system they have claimed, or in some cases a system next to one they have claimed, they start to become more hostile towards you. Since Proportions expansion is slower, it should take longer for this to happen naturally.

Geoschmo

[PvK]

Thanks Schwarzbart!

Oleg, ya I accidentally duplicated the Resource Storage III. It shouldn't do anything but offer it twice on the list. I'll add an impossible tech req to the second one for the next patch so it will vanish without changing existing games.

As for the peaceful thing, I agree with geoschmo that the reduced expansion rate has a large effect. However another thing is that I rampaged through the AI files and altered a number of things. AI's that were supposed to be peaceful now have greatly reducded "envy" for their allies' possessions, and in some cases tolerate shared border areas. The ones that are supposed to be violent and psychotic though might be wanting a tweak in the other direction to counteract the effect of slower expansion.

PvK

[oleg]

PvK, out of curiosity, why did you put
3 advanced traits for Abidon' 2K set up ?
It does not do any harm of course, since SE IV terminates race set up after reaching 2000 points (exactly between first and second advanced traits), but still ?

[PvK]

Because it will use it in higher-point starts. Set up a 5000-point game, and if it picks an appropriate set-up option (#1 or #3), it will take three traits. I just tested this again and it is working for me.

PvK

[wr8th]

Would it harm anything if we took out the second "Rad Resource Staorage III" reference in facility.txt?

[PvK]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by wr8th:
Would it harm anything if we took out the second "Rad Resource Staorage III" reference in facility.txt?<hr></blockquote>

It won't harm anything if you only play games started after you make that change, and aren't playing with people who haven't made that change.

If you try to play an old game after doing that, then all facilities in the game will transform to a different type of facility. If playing multi-player with someone who hasn't made the change and you have, you should get stopped by SE4 when you try to load the turn.

However, you can avoid breaking things (except the multi-player warning), if you do something like I plan to do for 2.2, and add an unattainable tech requirement. E.g., make the tech requirement for the second one Mineral Extraction level 20.

PvK

[Fyron]

I don't know if you've seen this yet, and it is in 2.0, so maybe you have. But here it is anyways. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I just discovered a spatial rupture system, and it says that the "center of the infestation will dammage any ships that enter it." Just a minor typo, but it is rather odd to see that an infestation will hurt me if I enter the center of a spatial rupture. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[PvK]

OOps... thanks Fyron!

[Schwarzbart]

At fisrst I whnt to say what a great mod Proportions is, It s my absolut favorit at moment (even if I cange a vew things http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ).

Now a word of warning: Don't use the upgrade Facilitys Button if you bild a city as it would be instantly upgraded to the highest City Facility your race know!

[Tnarg]

Would a level higher than large fighter, say "shuttle", be unbalanced if one were able to load small boarding parties or landing troops on them?

Also, by adding this 2.1 patch to my newly started 2.0 game, can I expect minor or major problems, or would you just recomend waiting until 2.2.

[PvK]

I don't know if boarding parties work on fighters or not. If they did, they should get a reload time of 30 to prevent one fighter from capturing dozens of small ships. The boarding strength should probably be low enough that it could only capture a ship with one crew quarters and no defensive troops. Since boarding attacks can't combine, this would make for kind of a limited surprise design, although I guess it could be useful against a player or AI that liked to use lots of small ships without shields.

I suppose a REALLY large fighter could be made just to hold a really large boarding party weapon that would have enough men to overcome larger security forces, but it should be very expensive and have reload 30, and the fighter should be slow and not so hard to hit, if it's going to be at all balanced versus conventional ship-mounted boarding parties, because the fighter ones will not require repair after use, and will not have a maintenance cost, and will not require a ship to carry them and lower their own shields to use them, all of which are major advantages.

As for carrying troops, a fighter can't do that, because units can't carry other units. The landing shuttle would have to be a small ship, in which case it'd have to fly to a target by itself, because nothing can carry ships.

Proportions 2.1 can and should be used with existing 2.0 games, I would say. The only major change to existing stuff will be heavy ship mounts, which will suddenly require less space and cost more, meaning designs that use them can now be upgraded to include some more stuff.

There might be an issue with the new Gold patch and Proportions - I ran a test game in Gold 1.66 and the AI wasn't building colony ships, whereas it definitely was with the same Version of Proportions on Gold 1.60. I'll try to figure that out by this weekend sometime.

PvK

[PsychoTechFreak]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by PvK:
There might be an issue with the new Gold patch and Proportions - I ran a test game in Gold 1.66 and the AI wasn't building colony ships, whereas it definitely was with the same Version of Proportions on Gold 1.60. I'll try to figure that out by this weekend sometime.

PvK<hr></blockquote>

If I take a look into the release notes, it looks like several issues regarding colonizers have been struggled with:

Version 1.61:
1. Changed - The Default_Ai_Construction_Vehicles.txt file will now allow for the design name or the design type. The term "Colonizer" is till hard-coded to be evaluated to the needed type of colonizer. When looking for the design to build, the game will look for the latest design which matches the design name. If no match is found, then the latest design which matches the design type will be located. If neither is found, this purchase item will be skipped.

Version 1.62:
1. Fixed - The AI was not purchasing colonizing ships.

But my guess is this one, due to the extraordinary costs of colonizers in proportions:

Version 1.66:
4. Fixed - Improved the AI's calculation of resources available for purchases of ships and units.

[Krsqk]

Re: Unit boarding parties

AFAIK, units aren't checked for ship capture. In the earliest Versions of P&N, pirate fighters had "Swashbuckler Pods"; but due to hard code issues, they didn't do anything (except take up space and look pretty http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ).

S_J would probably have the latest on this, though.

[wr8th]

I'll probably hold off on the patch (when I find a way to download it since the .exe won't pass the firewall) since I prefer playing Proportions with the AI able to build colonizers...

[dogscoff]

Wr8th re: firewall.

Just get someone to zip it and email it to you, that'll work, won't it?

I'll do it if you like, mail me on dogscoff@altavista.co.uk

[wr8th]

Thanks very much D. for your kind offer.

I'm gonna try a workaround and see if my wife can download it (they don't have the same firewall restriction where she works). I don't want to put anyone out if I can avoid it. If my idea doesn't work, I'll take you up on your offer.

Thanks again.

[wr8th]

PvK,

What's the reason behind making the new tri-polar map the default. Does the AI work better with it vs. others?

[PvK]

The Tri-Polar quadrant is just my current favourite. I like the layout and variety of the quadrant shapes and connections it creates, and it's the Last one I tweaked. It is pretty good for the current AI because it has a relatively low number of planetless systems. The Sidereal type is pretty good for the AI, too. I'm hoping to steal some time to tweak the AI a bit for 2.2, and then that'll matter less.

I am thinking that Gold 1.67 does have an issue with the AI for Colony Ship design in Proportions, so I'll try to come up with a 2.2 to deal with it, as soon as my spare time allows (I'm not sure what I need to do to fix it, but I think/hope it might be simple.)

Oleg, thanks for the comment on the Temporal Shifter. Let's see... hmm, yes, I think you're right - I'll extend the highest tech level in about the same way as with the NSP.

PvK

[PvK]

BTW, it looks like the Proportions 2.1 AI does design and build colony ships... eventually. With the new Gold patch supporting new means of controlling AI production, however, the next thing to mod is clearly some better Proportions AI's.

PvK

[oleg]

So, does it work with SE 1.67 ?
I want to install the new patch but reluctant to do it if it is incompatible with Proportions.

Weapon balance issue :

Shard cannons an null-space projectors got a boost in Proportions to compensate for new "internal" armour.
But Temporal Shifter (temporal null-space weapons) has not been changed. I suggest +20 to its damage (exactly the same bonus as to N-S projector)

[oleg]

As a Last resort you can simply low the colony ship cost. It will not affect the game dynamics too much I think. The bottleneck is still the extreme dependence of construction rate from population and very high cost of hugh level cultural facilities. The slow speed of colonisers are a factor too. I believe that small tweak of colony ship cost should solve this problem.

[PvK]

Well, actually it's now looking like a fluke or intermittant problem, or a 1.66 issue rather than a 1.67 issue. I only saw it not building colony ships in one test game in 1.66, and apparently in an all-tech-known (not really appropriate for Proportions, anyway) game in 1.67, which I might just not have run long enough. So, I'll keep an eye on it, but I think I may have been prematurely worried.

The AI tweaks though are working out well. It appears that once I get some AI's customized for Proportions and Gold 1.67, it will be a lot more effective. &lt;evil grin&gt;

PvK

[Schwarzbart]

I reduced the Cargo Storage of the Cargo Bay's even lower! I don't think that a Cargo Bay can store more then its size.

[bstripp]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Schwarzbart:
I reduced the Cargo Storage of the Cargo Bay's even lower! I don't think that a Cargo Bay can store more then its size.<hr></blockquote>

While that is certainly up to you, I can't see the logic behind it. The size of the cargo bay is a weight IE 20kT, not a space like m3. So cargo bay advances would be things that allow you to secure cargo with the lightest structure and material allowed.

Of course if it makes a better game for you, then go for it! But there is no problem for a cargo bay holding more than it weighs.

[Schwarzbart]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by bstripp:


While that is certainly up to you, I can't see the logic behind it. The size of the cargo bay is a weight IE 20kT, not a space like m3. So cargo bay advances would be things that allow you to secure cargo with the lightest structure and material allowed.<hr></blockquote>

If I understand your answear right then is the ship size of a Fighter its weight and the Ship size of a Escort its volume?

[oleg]

I checked proportions with 1.67 patch and there seems to be no problems with AI and colony ships.
(1 planet start, low starting tech)

[PvK]

Yes, I think I was overreacting to a test game where none of the AI's had done any colonizing in the first three years. It was Version 1.66, and I think I was probably just surprised by their slowness to build a colony ship, but I think now it was because of their AI files being that way and not because of a bug, so I should've tested more.

PvK

[PvK]

As for cargo bays, yes 4 million population is about the max per transport in Proportions, given highest tech ship sizes and components. I'd say it's generous too, realistically speaking. If this were SE3 and I could differentiate between cargo storage types, I might make it worse in terms of cost, because once you have four million people in a space ship, you have to keep them alive for months or even years in deep space... good luck doing that efficiently! Oh, you'll "just" have four MILLION cryogenic hybernation compartments? Ok... total price tag... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

As for whether a cargo bay should be able to store more than its size, I think SE4 is too abstract and undetailed in its measurements to take all of the measurements literally. Also, bstripp is quite right that mass and volume are different things, and I would add that items like people or space fighters themselves are one thing, while the mass and volume of what is needed to keep them functional is something else. Unfortunately, they're all on the same scale (kT). In short, don't take the masses TOO literally in terms of imagining what they represent - they are only accurate as effective measures of what you'll be able to cram in a location, or not.

I would also say that I don't think a space fighter would ever actually have a mass of even ONE kiloton, unless it was something unlike what I and most SF writers have generally imagined, or was made out of hyperdense alloy or whatever (which would tend to make it vastly less maneuverable than a lighter fighter). SE4 though only has one measure of size, and a fighter also needs supplies, maintenance crews, launch space and so on. Also, in order to be able to design the components on a fighter and have a limit, integral sizes means they have to be more than one kT, since that's SE4's smallest measure. So, either you accept that that there is a lot of abstraction going on, or you imagine enormous fighters, or you decide that each fighter represents a squadron, or whatever. Personally, I tend to imagine each fighter as one fighter that is probably well under 1 kT, but for purposes of effective cargo space required to store a fighter and the personnel/droids/supplies/spare parts/ operating space & base equipment needed to actually operate it for months on end, that's what the size represents when in cargo mode.

PvK

[wr8th]

"Also, bstripp is quite right that mass and volume are different things"

Anecdotal but related: Goering forgot about that as he sought to supply the 6th Army.

[RabidFan]

PvK,

The Last level in Industry (level 3 I think) does not produce anything. Was this done on purpose?

[PvK]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by RabidFan:
PvK,

The Last level in Industry (level 3 I think) does not produce anything. Was this done on purpose?<hr></blockquote>

Actually, it does allow you to build Arcologies, if/when you also research Construction level 4. There are several multiple tech-level requirements in Proportions. During play, these will look like some tech levels allow nothing new to be built, or less than they are prerequisites for, until you research the other prerequisite techs. SE4's basic game set does not use many multiple tech requirements, and unfortunately, the game does not display partial prereqs in the main research interface.

PvK

[mottlee]

OK I get it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I was just seeing IF I did something wrong......Have to play a lot different in this mod than SEIV normal http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif so far so good

[mottlee]

Is it right that a transport ship in this mod only hold 4M? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

[oleg]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by mottlee:
Is it right that a transport ship in this mod only hold 4M? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif <hr></blockquote>


Yes, and I think it is quite generous. Can you imagine a starship capable to transfer four million people to another world ?

[oleg]

Yes, the Proportion's gameplay is totally different.

Speaking about cargo load, I would like to see more benefits of high level cargo. Example: whatever is the level of cargo, there is no way to transport more than 1 M people untill you research large transports. As it is now, there is almost no incentive for cargo advance. Medium transport with cargo III still transports the same 1M as with cargo I. It would be nice if the progress in cargo let you to squeeze another million or so.

[Phoenix-D]

"During play, these will look like some tech levels allow nothing new to be built, or less than they are prerequisites for, until you research the other prerequisite techs."

What was suggested to me when I was griping about the same problem is putting in "prototype" techs. These are just copies of the normal stuff, but with one less tech requirements.. and seriously deficent in one or more areas. Maybe they even do nothing, and just say you need to research "blah blah blah" tech area before this will be of any use.

Phoenix-D

[ZeroAdunn]

PVK, have you though about adding more levels to cargo storage??

[PvK]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by oleg:
Speaking about cargo load, I would like to see more benefits of high level cargo. Example: whatever is the level of cargo, there is no way to transport more than 1 M people untill you research large transports. As it is now, there is almost no incentive for cargo advance. Medium transport with cargo III still transports the same 1M as with cargo I. It would be nice if the progress in cargo let you to squeeze another million or so.<hr></blockquote>

Yes, I noticed that too, and agree it would be nice to have the possibility of a 2M pop transport before getting to Large Transport. (I found one possible design, but it's speed 1 and requires other high tech, so doesn't count.) Cargo tech is useful of course for other types of cargo. I just want to be a little careful to try to get a 2M medium pop transport without making the max transport too big, or allowing too much other cargo to be jammed in one ship (ala the standard tech set). I guess I should revisit the idea of making a Population Transport module that can hold 1M people but is more expensive and fragile than regular cargo, and too big for most ship designs (so people aren't tempted to abuse it for extra unit storage space, or whatever). Anyway I'll give it some thought and try to come up with something that suits.

PvK

[HP Delron]

I think it is very reasonable to fit over 4million population on a transport. Depending of the size of the ships in this mod. ( i have not played it yet). But i am assuming that the largest of the large reach the size of baseships. Now a base ship is just about as large as the empire state building if you count tonnage. The empire state building has 37million cubic feet. Lets say that large baseship sized ship uses 1/2 its cubic feet on cargo. that is about 19million cubic feet. Now lets say the cryo chambers are 10feet tall 5 feet deep and 5 feet wide. that means you could would have 3.8milx3.8milx1.9mil chambers in that combined cargo space.

that makes about 27M peoples. Using only 1/2 its volume for cargo space. if it used more like 4/5 for cargo space. it would be about 30million cubic feet.
so you would get 3milx6milx6mil. 108M peoples on da ship.

Now mabey the ships in this mod are much smaller or the people in it are just giant lardos i dunno.

But using regular ship sizes. About 108Million peeps could fit on a dedicated Cargo ship loaded to the brim with cryo-statis chambers.

[ 13 April 2002: Message edited by: HP Delron ]</p>

[Fyron]

PvK, could you move the Basic Bridge, Basic Life Support, etc. to new families? It is kind of annoying to have to keep replacing them every time that I upgrade a ship that uses them.

[bstripp]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Schwarzbart:


If I understand your answear right then is the ship size of a Fighter its weight and the Ship size of a Escort its volume?<hr></blockquote>

No I believe they are all posted in kt, which is a mass. So all sizes, whether they are units or ships, are measured by mass not volume.

Which again, is totally irrelevant to whether or not reducing the payload of a cargo bay makes it a better game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif That is the real goal, which goes back to my statement of if it works for you... However, it is quite possible for bays to hold more then they weigh as long as you are talking mass.

[Krsqk]

Actually, this provides an interesting problem for all the realists out there. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif If a 20kt cargo unit can carry 70kt of cargo, then a 300kt ship suddenly becomes (30 kt C&C comps) + (60kt engines) + (20kt cargo comp + 70kt cargo) * 10 cargo comps = 990kt. However, despite the sudden 230% increase in mass, the speed of the ship becomes the same. Perhaps in SEV, true QNP will be possible, with the mass of cargo factored into total ship mass, and ship sizes actually relative to volume. That would drastically change ship design.

[Suicide Junkie]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>No I believe they are all posted in kt, which is a mass. So all sizes, whether they are units or ships, are measured by mass not volume.<hr></blockquote>How then do you explain the fact that damage is measured in KT?

Units of measure is SE4 are arbitrary.
see clue #57 in:101 indicators that you are addicted to SEIV (http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=23&t=004698)

[PvK]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Krsqk:
Actually, this provides an interesting problem for all the realists out there. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif If a 20kt cargo unit can carry 70kt of cargo, then a 300kt ship suddenly becomes (30 kt C&C comps) + (60kt engines) + (20kt cargo comp + 70kt cargo) * 10 cargo comps = 990kt. However, despite the sudden 230% increase in mass, the speed of the ship becomes the same. Perhaps in SEV, true QNP will be possible, with the mass of cargo factored into total ship mass, and ship sizes actually relative to volume. That would drastically change ship design.<hr></blockquote>

Yes, this is another reason why I limited the capacity of cargo storage, and don't make it get really large at high tech levels. That is, it may make sense that high tech materials could make a very light cargo bay with a high capacity, but that doesn't mean that the stuff that it holds will weigh any less. So, if engines and ship maneuverability are based on only the vehicle class, there is no way in SE4 to take this into account. To keep QNP semi-faithful, you need to build ships with higher capacity and higher "engines per move" settings. Still, this does not take into account the difference in speed that should occur for large but empty cargo ships. SE4 won't do that.

PvK

[PvK]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
PvK, could you move the Basic Bridge, Basic Life Support, etc. to new families? It is kind of annoying to have to keep replacing them every time that I upgrade a ship that uses them.<hr></blockquote>

Yep - good suggestion.

PvK

[PvK]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by HP Delron:
I think it is very reasonable to fit over 4million population on a transport. Depending of the size of the ships in this mod. ( i have not played it yet). But i am assuming that the largest of the large reach the size of baseships.
<hr></blockquote>

The largest pop transport is the Large Starliner, and 1450kT. There is a Heavy Baseship at 2000kT, though.


<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
Now a base ship is just about as large as the empire state building if you count tonnage.
<hr></blockquote>

Well, that's the rub - interpretation of tonnage. Even if you take "kT" literally (which I frequently don't), I still don't know how you're equating a baseship to the Empire State Building. It's an interesting comparison, though.


<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
The empire state building has 37million cubic feet. Lets say that large baseship sized ship uses 1/2 its cubic feet on cargo. that is about 19million cubic feet. Now lets say the cryo chambers are 10feet tall 5 feet deep and 5 feet wide. that means you could would have 3.8milx3.8milx1.9mil chambers in that combined cargo space.

that makes about 27M peoples. Using only 1/2 its volume for cargo space. if it used more like 4/5 for cargo space. it would be about 30million cubic feet.
so you would get 3milx6milx6mil. 108M peoples on da ship.

Now mabey the ships in this mod are much smaller or the people in it are just giant lardos i dunno.

But using regular ship sizes. About 108Million peeps could fit on a dedicated Cargo ship loaded to the brim with cryo-statis chambers.

[ 13 April 2002: Message edited by: HP Delron ]<hr></blockquote>

Very interesting, though your premise data is just one possible way of doing the math. Several other ideas to consider:

1) Cryogenic storage of population is not necessarily given. If this were my Foundations mod, there should probably be a tech tree branch for cryogenic technology, and I'd say it would take some advanced research before you could reliably freeze, store, and revive someone using a 10' x 5' x 5' device.

2) In Proportions, I assume that population units are more than just a million bodies and some pijamas. Even if you could stuff 100 million folks into ice boxes and un-pack/freeze them on a colony... what then? You've got the population of a good-sized nation, with no clothing, houses, vehicles, factories, farms, medicine, cities, tools, weapons, food, fuel, books, computers, vehicles, or anything else to keep them alive on a world that is not their native atmosphere, biosphere, gravity, weather (or even close to their native temperature), and may or may not be full of alien flora, fauna and microbes, and other hazards.
So, I assume that a population unit has to bring a lot of this stuff with them, and so is somewhat included in the mass rating, and even then it seemed I was being generous.

3) Because of the limitations of SE4, I had to take into account that players can and will do what one player here has suggested, and use planetary development fleets. A colony ship can arrive at an unsettled planet at the same time as a pile of transports. This is ok, as long as it doesn't get out of hand. If a transport could carry 100 pop units, then a fleet could turn a dead alien rock into a military base churning out high-tech units in a few turns. Therefore, this is another reason why pop cargo capacity should stay low in order to maintain the effect and purpose of the mod (to be able to make more realistic a game that ignores many realistic limits to colony development rate - in some cases this comes at the price of some abstractions and cases where things aren't literally what they say they are [e.g., population isn't necessarily just a million people, and kT isn't necessarily a kiloton, or even a particular type of measure - these are what they do, not what they say they are.)

4) A typical homeworld in SE4 has a limit of 2000 pop units. If you take that literally to mean two billion people, then it's not in line at all with Earth population. On the other hand, you could say that a population unit only represents the part of the population that is useful from a Space Tyrant's perspective - trained servile workforce, or whatever.

5) Real-world examples tend to have less than half their mass in cargo capacity, although these are of course different tech levels, and different sorts of vehicles, than in SE4. Some examples:

Boeing 747 - 400 tons, 122 tons cargo capacity
Pegasus SSTO 1960's - 1500 tons, 20 tons capacity
Ithacus Senior 1960's - 6400 tons, 360 tons capacity
VentureStar space plane - 1000 tons, 25 tons capacity

6) I tend to think that SE4 ship sizes are probably grossly overrated in terms of tonnage. An 80,000 ton "small" satellite? A 10,000 ton bridge? How many crew could you fit in one 10,000 ton crew quarters unit, even if you pack sandwiches and drink for them? The smallest ship in SE4 normal is 150kT. The battleship Bismarck weighed 46 actual kT. Is the smallest exploration spacecraft going to be more massive than three battleships? The nuclear aircraft carrier USS Enterprise weighs about 75 actual kT. Any of these figures tend to make me think that all figures in SE4 are truly meaningful only in their effects.

7) On the other hand, in plotting the ship sizes I used, I referred to the venerable old Star Trek Star Fleet Technical manual, and found the sizes were less than an order of magnitude greater in SE4. I tend to think in terms of Star Fleet Battles, which was based on this book and other materials from Franz Joseph. I think TNG ships are supposed to be bigger, so maybe that's where Malfador came up with basic figures. Anyway, seeing these were only off by about 2-3 times, and the proportions of destroyer to cruiser to dreadnought looked about the same, and especially considering the task of converting ALL the SE4 size values just to try to have an accurate kT measure for ship hulls, I just decided I should stick with the basic SE4 scale, and the effects it has, rather than trying to worry about whether the kT would work out to real-universe kiloTons, because it was clear that they never would. There are metric tons, and there are imperial tons, there are tonnes and dry tonnes and who knows what else, so there can be Malfadorian SE4 kT, with different Versions for ship size, satellite size, drone size, fighter size, population size, weapon platform size, planet capacity, etc etc etc. They are what they do.

PvK

edit: fixing quote bolds

[ 14 April 2002: Message edited by: PvK ]</p>

[Phoenix-D]

PvK, about weights:

Space Shuttle, landing weight 210,161 lbs. kT: 105

And the Shuttle isn't even interplanetary..

http://science.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/missions/61-c/mission-61-c.html

EDIT: still, some weights are off (component weights). I think of the satelites as more midget automated space stations than what we think of as satelites.

Phoenix-D

[ 14 April 2002: Message edited by: Phoenix-D ]</p>

[PvK]

Ahem. kT = kilotons. 210,161 pounds is about 100 tons, or 0.1 kT.

PvK

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
PvK, about weights:

Space Shuttle, landing weight 210,161 lbs. kT: 105

And the Shuttle isn't even interplanetary..

http://science.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/missions/61-c/mission-61-c.html

EDIT: still, some weights are off (component weights). I think of the satelites as more midget automated space stations than what we think of as satelites.

Phoenix-D

[ 14 April 2002: Message edited by: Phoenix-D ]<hr></blockquote>

[Phoenix-D]

oops, yeah. Math error http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Phoenix-D

[Krsqk]

So, a standard SEIV small fighter is 150 times the size of the space shuttle (assuming equal measurement scales here)? I think that's a good argument for a Malfadorian measurement system (or as PvK said, one for each class of vehicle).

[Krakenup]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by HP Delron:
I think it is very reasonable to fit over 4million population on a transport. Depending of the size of the ships in this mod. ( i have not played it yet). But i am assuming that the largest of the large reach the size of baseships. Now a base ship is just about as large as the empire state building if you count tonnage. The empire state building has 37million cubic feet. Lets say that large baseship sized ship uses 1/2 its cubic feet on cargo. that is about 19million cubic feet. Now lets say the cryo chambers are 10feet tall 5 feet deep and 5 feet wide. that means you could would have 3.8milx3.8milx1.9mil chambers in that combined cargo space.

that makes about 27M peoples. Using only 1/2 its volume for cargo space. if it used more like 4/5 for cargo space. it would be about 30million cubic feet.
so you would get 3milx6milx6mil. 108M peoples on da ship.<hr></blockquote>I'll have to question your math on that. If the cryo chambers are 10x5x5, that's 250 cubic feet each. 19 mil divided by 250 is 76 Thousand, not 27 Million. Similarly, you could put 120 Thousand colonists in 30 Million cubic feet.

The only way to get millions of colonists on a ship is freeze dried.

[Growltigga]

Good thread, the proportions have always bothered the heck out of me on SEIV.

My small transport has 10 cargo I pods and I can transport 300 million colonists across space - that is 30 million colonists per pod on something that weighs 20,000 tons - I cannot just get this to work in my head

Secondly, an SEIV small fighter is about 150 times the size of the space shuttle?? lordy, that ruins my visions of fighter combat, I thought we were talking X wings here1

[Val]

PvK:

Would you mind if I utilize some of your ideas for the B5Mod?

[PvK]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Val:
PvK:

Would you mind if I utilize some of your ideas for the B5Mod?<hr></blockquote>

Val, please do. I'd be interested to hear what you're using, and to chat about it, although I'm not very familiar with B5.

PvK

[PvK]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Krakenup:
I'll have to question your math on that. If the cryo chambers are 10x5x5, that's 250 cubic feet each. 19 mil divided by 250 is 76 Thousand, not 27 Million. Similarly, you could put 120 Thousand colonists in 30 Million cubic feet.<hr></blockquote>

Yes, good catch! The Proportions population cargo sizes begin to seem even more generous.


<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
The only way to get millions of colonists on a ship is freeze dried.<hr></blockquote>

I'm reminded of the Bugs Bunny cartoon with the Instant Martians (just add water) pellets!

Hmm, a Duck Dodgers mod?

PvK

[Val]

I'm going to look over proportions (the newest one) over the week. Mainly, I had been thinking about the Cultural Centers/Colonies and such and had some similiar ideas. I would really like there to be a different feel for Home Worlds, Colonies, Mining Colonies and Military OutPosts, something based more on the types of facilities available and the amount of time it takes to build them - I'll let you know more as I get a better idea http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Nodachi]

I always thought ships were measured by displacement or volume, not weight. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif As far as how much population you can fit on a ship I think I agree with the settings in Proportions, 1 pop is a family unit and enough basic infrastructure for them to survive. (Of course I cheated and added cargo IV tied to warp point creation - interdimensional storage!) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Nodachi

[PvK]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Nodachi:
I always thought ships were measured by displacement or volume, not weight.
<hr></blockquote>

Aquatic ship sizes are often expressed in displacement in terms of weight of seawater displaced, which is exactly the same as the ship's weight, because that's what floating objects generally do (displace a weight of water equal to their own weight).

Space ships should probably be measured both in terms of mass and volume.

PvK

[Nodachi]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by PvK:


Aquatic ship sizes are often expressed in displacement in terms of weight of seawater displaced, which is exactly the same as the ship's weight, because that's what floating objects generally do (displace a weight of water equal to their own weight).<hr></blockquote>

Quite right, I stand corrected.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Space ships should probably be measured both in terms of mass and volume.
<hr></blockquote>

You're right but it should be pointed out that mass and volume are not neccessarily related.

I used to work for a magic show and this reminds me of something my boss used to say, "When we perform a magic trick we want the audience to have a suspension of disbelief, they know it's a trick but are willing to accept the illusion as real in order to be entertained." That's the way it is with SE4 for me. I tend to think of the ships as smaller than Star Trek craft, which in turn would be dwarfed by some of the ships in Star Wars. The numbers are just labels for us to work with the system.
Nodachi

[Tnarg]

Couple of questions: First has it been determined if 2.1 works with the new Gold patch, and is the new gold patch worth downloading.

Second, is there a projected date for 2.2 and what might we expect to find in there.

Third, I am having trouble incorportating downloaded ship sets to use for myself in proportions. Where exactly should I unzip these to, or if there is more than one step what might they be. Everytime I unzip one and I go to create a new race I get through a handful of the regualar shipsets and aliens, and then I get an error. Thanks for your time.

[Tnarg]

One Last question, does the AI handle the tri-polar wide, and what exactly is the difference between regualr tri-polar. Also should I use all warp points connected on not. The galaxy looks pretty segregated with no points connected. Does the AI handle this very well.

I've also noticed that even with 250 as my systems setting, I will only get about 50-60 systems that actually have stars and planets. Should this be so?

[Fyron]

The patch is definitely worth downloading. All mods compatible with Gold are compatible with the new patch.

Shipsets:
Unzip them so that they go in folders like this:
C:\Space Empires IV\Pictures\Races\Race Name\*.*

Then, create an empty "Race Name" folder under the Proportions Mod in the same type of location. It would be best if you take a Proportions AI's text files, copy them into the new folder, and rename them with the appropriate Race Name, so that they will work as AIs in the mod. Otherwise, they won't work very well.

[PvK]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by tnarg:
Couple of questions: First has it been determined if 2.1 works with the new Gold patch, and is the new gold patch worth downloading.<hr></blockquote>

Yes, it works. You should definitely get the new Gold patch, because otherwise you will eventually hit an overflow error from massive hitpoints (usually on homeworlds) in combat.


<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
Second, is there a projected date for 2.2 and what might we expect to find in there.
<hr></blockquote>

I think about the the weekend after this coming one, or April 27. It will mainly contain some AI improvements (I know a lot of ways to improve the AI, but it takes a long time to enter them in and test them). There will probably be some revision of some of the resource production facility values, too.

A few others:
* Changed drone Anti-Ship Warheads to only be usable against ships and
bases (not fighters/satellites/planets/etc).
* Extended Temporal Shifters three tech levels with diminishing results,
to fall in with null space boost to adapt to Proportions armor. Note
that Temporal Shifters are easier to research and to build but shorter
ranged and somewhat less destructive than null space projectors.
* Ship control components now upgrade to their same type.


<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
Third, I am having trouble incorportating downloaded ship sets to use for myself in proportions. Where exactly should I unzip these to, or if there is more than one step what might they be. Everytime I unzip one and I go to create a new race I get through a handful of the regualar shipsets and aliens, and then I get an error.<hr></blockquote>

I believe the pictures go in your SE4/Pictures/Races/"race name" directory, but then for them to appear in Proportions, you should create an empty folder with the same name at SE4/Proportions/Pictures/Races/"race name". Or, if you just want the race to appear in Proportions only, you can just copy the pictures to SE4/Proportions/Pictures/Races/"race name".

The AI files for the new shipset are a little trickier. If you copied the race pictures under Proportions (at SE4/Proportions/Pictures/Races/"race name") only, then you can just delete the AI race files, and it will use the default Proportions AI. If you have a custom shipset with AI files under your non-Proportions Races directory, then if you want the AI or ministers to use that shipset without causing warning Messages and possibly doing something extra-silly, you should then copy and rename some AI files from a Proportions race into your new shipset - probably best to use the Amon'Krie ones and/or one of the Default AI's. Rename the start of those AI files to match the folder name of your new shipset.

I hope that was clear and correct.

PvK

[PvK]

What Fyron said!!

[PvK]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by tnarg:
One Last question, does the AI handle the tri-polar wide, and what exactly is the difference between regualr tri-polar. Also should I use all warp points connected on not. The galaxy looks pretty segregated with no points connected. Does the AI handle this very well.<hr></blockquote>

Yes the AI should be fine with either Tri-Polar type, or Sideral types.

The difference between Tri-Polar and Tri-Polar-wide, is just the warp point pattern, which you can see by generating a few samples. The wide one has fewer, more widely spaced warp lines, and more strands of systems with only two warp points a piece. I guess in theory the wide one is riskier for the AI, because it could get stuck between black hole systems on a strand, or something. Depending on your tastes, though, that could actually be interesting.

I haven't tested the AI with lots of broken off (unconnected by warp points) systems, but it is supposed to be set up to research and build warp point creation ships. I would expect it to be a disadvantage to the AI, but I haven't tested it.

All warp points connected is recommended unless you are using one of the following types (which will have almost all connected anyway):

Sidereal
Atypical Sidereal
Rich Spiral Arm
Semi-Standard
Mid-Life
Galactic Edge
Spiral Arm
Grid
Ancient

For Rich Spiral Arm, I actually recommend going with All Warp Points Connected set to OFF - it will almost never have isolated systems, anyway, and is has a more interesting shape with it off. (Unless you WANT massive numbers of connections, in which case that's what you'll get with it on).


<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
I've also noticed that even with 250 as my systems setting, I will only get about 50-60 systems that actually have stars and planets. Should this be so?<hr></blockquote>

That depends on the quadrant type. In Tri-Polar and Sidereal types, most systems should have planets and stars. In Ancient and Atypical types, there will be more special systems without planets, which is what is hard for the current AI in 2.1.

PvK

[ 18 April 2002: Message edited by: PvK ]</p>

[PsychoTechFreak]

This is not an urgent request, but could you provide a (very brief) description of your (new) quadrant types? I should take a closer look into quadrant types.txt, with almost every patch you add some new ones. I like your ideas to change some of the system abilities, e.g. organic infestation.
One question, I think I have seen this in one of your warp point changes, it was a one-way WP. Are one-way WPs now created by random? Wasn't it just possible with map editor?

[PvK]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
This is not an urgent request, but could you provide a (very brief) description of your (new) quadrant types? I should take a closer look into quadrant types.txt, with almost every patch you add some new ones. I like your ideas to change some of the system abilities, e.g. organic infestation.?<hr></blockquote>

There are some extremely brief descriptions in the QuadrantTypes.txt file, that don't get shown in the game. I'll try to embellish these at some point. For now, I'll cut & paste:

Name := Tri-Polar
Description := Slightly different from sidereal, with a few more special systems.

Name := Sidereal
Description := A middle-aged sheet of systems with somewhat irregular connections.

Name := Atypical Sidereal
Description := A middle-aged sheet of systems with somewhat irregular connections and unpredictable contents.

Name := Sparse Edge
Description := The galactic edge where systems are spread evenly, and there are fewer warp point connections.

Name := Rich Spiral Arm
Description := A spiral arm quadrant with many warp point connections. Try without "all systems connected" - they will be anyway.

Name := Ancient Bi-Polar
Description := Old section of the galaxy dotted with nebulaes and black holes, where warp points tend to be at opposite sides of a system.

Name := Rich Cluster
Description := A globular cluster section of the galaxy with many warp points.


<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
One question, I think I have seen this in one of your warp point changes, it was a one-way WP. Are one-way WPs now created by random? Wasn't it just possible with map editor?<hr></blockquote>

Is it even possible in the map editor? I thought it was just an idea that has not (yet?) been implemented. I think I added it to see if it would work, and so that it would show up if/when MM implemented it.

BTW, a couple of other things in 2.2 will be:

* Corrected cosmetic typo in "Spatial Rupture 2".
* Fixed cosmetic duplicate Rad Storage III.

PvK

[ 18 April 2002: Message edited by: PvK ]</p>

[adder_inf]

Why are the colony cultural centers any easier to build they seemed to have the same cost as a straight cultural center? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

I downloaded the entire mod from your site.

I love the mod so far great stuff. Thanks for all the hard work http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[PsychoTechFreak]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by PvK:


I think I added it to see if it would work, and so that it would show up if/when MM implemented it.

<hr></blockquote>

What you have added would make up some tricky traps if it would work.
I got another WP idea, which I think would be bad for the AI, but could be nice for multiplayer. Really funky/unstable WPs with a random damage factor similar to black holes. But they should not be obviously recognized as unstable, I guess it could be even more interesting if every WP would show up with the same description, like "unknown WP, enter on your own risk".

[PvK]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by adder_inf:
Why are the colony cultural centers any easier to build they seemed to have the same cost as a straight cultural center? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

I downloaded the entire mod from your site.

I love the mod so far great stuff. Thanks for all the hard work http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif <hr></blockquote>


Thanks adder_inf!

Currently, there is no difference except the name and description between the Colony Cultural Center and the homeworld Cultural Center. I may be adding some intermediate levels later, but for now they're essentially nearly-impossible to build, on purpose.

The reasons that there are two kinds are cosmetic and historical. Originally, there was only one type, which included extra construction abilities, that were cumulative on the homeworld, but made it impossible (due to SE4 hard-coded limits) to try to build a CC on a colony with another CC on it, or one with a spaceyard on it. Worse though was the more realistic attempt to rebuild or add a CC to the homeworld itself, which would also be prevented by SE4. So I added Colony Cultural Centers, which were like CC's without the construction bonuses. Later I decided it was unfair that homeworlds got a construction bonus that colony worlds never could, and I noticed the more important/realistic problem that spaceyards could not be built on planets with "constructing-type" (homeworld) CC's on them, meaning high-tech shipyards would have no effect on a homeworld. I also decided the slower build times and the need to build orbital shipyards was an improvement over the abstract representation of built-in construction abilities on homeworlds, and changed them to the way they are now, identical except for description, with no construction bonuses.

PvK

[PvK]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
What you have added would make up some tricky traps if it would work.
I got another WP idea, which I think would be bad for the AI, but could be nice for multiplayer. Really funky/unstable WPs with a random damage factor similar to black holes. But they should not be obviously recognized as unstable, I guess it could be even more interesting if every WP would show up with the same description, like "unknown WP, enter on your own risk".<hr></blockquote>

Yes, I like tricky traps, as long as they're uncommon enough. I currently have three classes of warp points with 35 different abilities. They do say what kind of effect they have, but the amount of the effect isn't clear, especially for the damaging ones. Some warp points vary from minescule damage to baseship-shredding damage (which is quite rare, though).

Your idea to add some where the effect type is undeterminable or even misleading is a nice one - I'll have to add that, though I'll keep it rare. Actually, I should probably make a really wicked quadrant option http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif , but I should do the AI improvements first.

PvK

[capnq]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> One question, I think I have seen this in one of your warp point changes, it was a one-way WP. Are one-way WPs now created by random? Wasn't it just possible with map editor? Is it even possible in the map editor? <hr></blockquote>

Yes, it always has been. When you create a Warp Point in the Map Editor, you get that box warning you that you need to make a reciprocal Warp Point in the destination system, but nothing actually forces you to add the return link. Except that (IIRC) the warp line between the systems isn't drawn until you add the second.

[DirectorTsaarx]

I've seen one-way warp points in the "standard" game. Not very often, but once in a while. It's kinda strange; and I think the warp line appears if you have a ship in the "originating" system. Of course, the warp point never shows up in the destination system - your ships just seem to "appear" when warping in.

[oleg]

After Last SE patch, AI_design_creation.txt needs adjustments. SE keeps active the latest models of all possible design types. The structure of Proportion's AI design file (separate entries for escorts, frigates, destroyers, etc) forces AI to keep redesigning and building escorts and frigates even when battlecruisers and battleships are discovered. Obviously, it greatly handicaps AI fleets.

[PvK]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by oleg:
After Last SE patch, AI_design_creation.txt needs adjustments. SE keeps active the latest models of all possible design types. The structure of Proportion's AI design file (separate entries for escorts, frigates, destroyers, etc) forces AI to keep redesigning and building escorts and frigates even when battlecruisers and battleships are discovered. Obviously, it greatly handicaps AI fleets.<hr></blockquote>

Not at all. In Proportions, larger ships do not make smaller ships obsolete. It's desirable in Proportions that the AI continues to build a mix of warship sizes after it researches larger ships. There are tradeoffs between the sizes, and an AI that only built the largest ships it could would, I think, be at a disadvantage.

PvK

[Iskander]

&gt;&gt; If there are players still running pre-2.0 games who are eager to get 1.6 (since they can't upgrade to 2.x), let me know.
&gt;&gt;

Thanks for this mod, I tried it for the first time tonight, it does just about everything I thought needed changing from the standard.
Love the change to the engines, nifty...

Now for my question, I'm playing proportions from the CD, from the above quote I'm thinking I need to install something befor proportions 2.1. Is this correct? If so, what do I need? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Thanks on advance for any help...

Isk...

[PDF]

Hmm, I tried this mod, the ideas sound great, but have problems with the AI/Empires : only a couple of "player" races with AI are in the mod, and of I try to add "stock" races I have a "load error" message, perhaps due to change in traits lists ...
How can I play solo ? Only with created or random AI ??
Or perhaps do some other races sets exist that are compatible ??

[oleg]

Iskander, all you need is the latest proportions 2.1 patch. It should work just fine over CD Versions.

PDF, if you play with AI, download AI general files I put in SE IV races forum. Once you started game with random AI, go to game/players pull-down, turn all AI players under your control and then go through them and "save empire".
Repeat untill you have .emp files for all races.

[PvK]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Iskander:
[QB]&gt;&gt; If there are players still running pre-2.0 games who are eager to get 1.6 (since they can't upgrade to 2.x), let me know.
&gt;&gt;

Thanks for this mod, I tried it for the first time tonight, it does just about everything I thought needed changing from the standard.
Love the change to the engines, nifty...

Now for my question, I'm playing proportions from the CD, from the above quote I'm thinking I need to install something befor proportions 2.1. Is this correct? If so, what do I need? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
[QB]<hr></blockquote>

Glad you're liking it. You can install 2.1 over the Version from the CD. The only problem will be if you have been playing a game of Proportions from a Version before Proportions 2.0, and you want to continue playing that same game. In that case, you will want to load a Proportions patch earlier than 2.0 (I'd recommend 1.5.3). If someone is trying to continue an old game, but wants to be as up to date as possible, I'm willing to make a patch to Version 1.6, which will be compatible with games created using Proportions Versions before 2.0. So far no one's asked for this though, so I haven't taken the time.

PvK

[PvK]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by PDF:
Hmm, I tried this mod, the ideas sound great, but have problems with the AI/Empires : only a couple of "player" races with AI are in the mod, and of I try to add "stock" races I have a "load error" message, perhaps due to change in traits lists ...
How can I play solo ? Only with created or random AI ??
Or perhaps do some other races sets exist that are compatible ??<hr></blockquote>

You can do as Oleg says, if you want to be able to pick which AI opponents you use, or to use a pre-made empire other than the one example.

Otherwise, you can create your own race, and let the AI generate its own based on the default set - it will create empires for those and play them with AI for Proportions (though I'm still working on making it do a very good job).

If you are trying to use 3rd party races for AI opponents, the AI files that come with them will generate warnings in Proportions. You can remove their AI files, or copy ones from Proportions into their Proportions/pictures/races/empireName folder folder and rename them to that empire's name, and then they will work in Proportions.

Hopefully by next weekend there will be a Proportions 2.2 with some better AI's. If I have time, I'll generate some more emp files to make it easier to select specific ones.

PvK

[Iskander]

Thanks for the info guys, am looking forward to giving it a try as soon as I find the proportions website. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Have a few modding questions too, but I'll throw them up elsewhere...

About Proportions though, I like the idea of the cities etc, but I'm not sure if they 'work'..
They're rather expensive for what they do, and the systemwide abilities are annoying everytime you get the error message. (might be fixed in 2.1?)
I recon make them a bit cheaper and remove the systemwide abilities.
But then maybe I just need to get used to them.

Isk...

[PvK]

http://www.latibulum.com/pvk/proportions/

There's no way to get rid of the system-wide warnings without removing them. They represent the benefits of having vestiges of an actual civilization in a system. A system without anything but military and industrial facilities is going to have certain disadvantages, represented by missing out on bonuses to happiness, research, etc.

I will probably be adding some more intermediate steps to the urban facilities, and might end up re-naming some of them, and making a couple of tweaks, but basically the idea is to make it take a lot of time, effort, and expense to develop a major colony. Considering cities (representing more than just "a town") can be established in a couple of years with enough work, it seems more or less what I was shooting for.

Although, another thing it helps to realize is that much of my reduction to the Ratings of facilities is an attempt to reject the simple additive logic of SE4. Adding a lab on a remote planet isn't going to really directly add to the research speed of the whole empire directly, the way the game logic works. Similarly, adding a mine in a distant colony is not going to magically provide those resources to an empire - there is a lot of redundancy and expense before the empire will see any net gain, realistically, and practically in this mod.

PvK

[Iskander]

Thanks for the link...

I can see where you're coming from, I'll upgrade to 2.1 and play a few more games and it will fall into place for me.. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

It's (proportions) has definately given the game a much better pace...

And I love the way you end up with a whole fleet of Qantas Spaceliners shipping people round..

In fact I'd kill for a Spaceliner graphic done in qantas colours. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Isk...

[oleg]

Something about cultural facilities warnings:
Almost all of them "change system-wide happiness" entry which is set to zero. It is quite annoying since one still must build urban pacification centers even if there are Megapolysis around and you get this message "there is already facility with this ability". I am not sure, but it may also interfere with AI facility building. PvK, can you remove these empty lines from low-level cultural facilities or alternatively assign value 1 to them ?

[PvK]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by oleg:
Something about cultural facilities warnings:
Almost all of them "change system-wide happiness" entry which is set to zero. It is quite annoying since one still must build urban pacification centers even if there are Megapolysis around and you get this message "there is already facility with this ability". I am not sure, but it may also interfere with AI facility building. PvK, can you remove these empty lines from low-level cultural facilities or alternatively assign value 1 to them ?<hr></blockquote>

Oh, I didn't realize that was the situation - yes, I'll look into that for 2.2.

PvK

[Phoenix-D]

PvK, I'm looking into using this for the Starfire Civil War RP scenerio.

There's a couple of things I'm not sure on tho..(on 2.1)

-What's up with the combat sensors? Aside from space, why would you bother to get the smaller Versions? They don't stack, and you loose a significant amount of sensor bonus by using them. Worse, they are AFTER the other sensors in the tree, and the same family; that means if I want the better sensors I have to undo "only latest" and scroll all the way back. Ick..

-why does the resupply depot have a "emergancy resupply" ability?

Phoenix-D

[PvK]

Combat Sensors and ECM - the small Versions save space and are also rather cheaper than the highest rated ones. The higher tech large ones get more expensive, while the smaller ones get less expensive. Originally they were all listed separately, but this made their abilities stack, which was not intended, so I had to take that out. If you are still playing with standard set philosophy, and always building the most expensive ships, then you will probably want to go with the larger ones, and yes it'll be a bit more work at higher tech levels to select them in the design screen. I don't know of a good way around that without removing the smaller ones.

The smaller and cheaper ones are particularly good for ships that aren't designed as superiority battlewagons, or that just want to be more efficient. Particularly on smaller ships and drones, full-size sensors and ECM cost a lot and take a signifigant amount of space - the smaller and cheaper models then become an attractive choice, especially because in Proportions, these design sizes already have built-in combat mods that more than make up the difference.

Perhaps the full-size ones should actually increase in cost (and/or size) at a steeper rate, to make the choice more distinct. For large expensive direct-fire ships, the choice is pretty clear to go with the larger Versions.

Take a look at the table HERE (http://g2.latibulum.com/pvk/proportions/EW.htm) and let me know if you think it needs tweaking. Note that for example, with Sensors at tech level 10, CS VIIa is available, giving only +40 to hit instead of +49, but costing only 250 mins and 5 kT space, compared to 525 mins and 10 kT space.

I'm thinking maybe I should add more to the increased min cost of higher-level sensors and ECM. As in, maybe have them go up by 50 mins per level instead of by 25, and have them start increasing at level IV instead of level VI, and have them start getting bigger, like maybe +1 kT per level above III.

Note too that these techs still cost about the same to research as in the standard game, which only goes to level III, whereas Proportions goes up to level XV in each, and unless you're playing with multiple homeworlds, Proportions generally gives you a lot less research points after the early game. So... these issues mainly apply to players who dump lots of research into electronic warfare and play for a long time anyway, but still.

As for resupply depots having "emergency resupply," this doesn't appear during play. It's a tag so that the AI can be programmed to work properly with the mod. By telling the AI to build facilities that formally have "emergency resupply," they will build resupply depots instead of deciding that Cultural Centers look like the best kind of resupply depot, and then spending the next 2000 turns dumping resources into a colony that ends up producing nothing. There are quite a few meaningless tags you'll see if you study the data files, pretty much all tricks to get the AI to work properly.

PvK

[Phoenix-D]

"I don't know of a good way around that without removing the smaller ones."

Put something else in between. It seperates them in the listing, but IIRC it won't make the abilities stack.

Re: the resupply depot: ah. I was just a little confused as to why my homeworld had a "use facility" button http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Phoenix-D

[PvK]

Ok, I'll try to see if putting another component in between will do what you want. I thought it was just the family that determined that, though. Even if it works though, it would break existing games that had gotten that far in the tech tree, shuffling existing components to something different.

Heh, it's interesting it gives a "use facility" button! I didn't know SE4 even had one (too bad it isn't used for anything ... or is it?). If you use it does it resupply your ships immediately? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

PvK

[PsychoTechFreak]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by PvK:

Heh, it's interesting it gives a "use facility" button! I didn't know SE4 even had one (too bad it isn't used for anything ... or is it?). If you use it does it resupply your ships immediately? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

<hr></blockquote>

This button has been a riddle for me too. Since the resupply ability of the culture centers resupplies immediately, you cannot see if the button does something. I guess the button is an artefact or maybe good for a future ability of facilities. Maybe, Emergency Pop Growth, or it could be planned to use a stealth facility or whatever (anyone tried emergency propulsion? Muahuahaa.)

[PvK]

It could actually be useful in ... let's see... a turn-based game. If your ships used components that use supplies (stellar manip) or get a supply draining event, or fight a combat at a resupply base location, then you could resupply without having to leave the base and return... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

PvK

[Baron Munchausen]

The 'Use Facility' button was undoubtedly included for future abilities that used to be in the facility.txt file. Things like WARP GATES which I've been asking for since before the game was released... (grumble, grr, mutter...) And other goodies like the Planetry Engine Facility, the Space Fold Facility (which would make a 'pocket universe' either removing the system it it located in from the main map or making a new system not on the map), and of course the 'Core Detonator Facility' -- planetary self-destruct. Hmm, I wonder if that would work. Either 'destroy planet' or 'self destruct' abilities might actually work with the 'use facility' button. Talk about scorched earth tactics!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Exactly what makes the button activate so you can see it? Please post it here.

[ 24 April 2002: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]</p>

[PvK]

Evidently, it's just this:

Ability 2 Type := Emergency Resupply
Ability 2 Descr :=
Ability 2 Val 1 := 1
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0

[PsychoTechFreak]

I think it should be more the Distribution Center:

Ability 2 Type := Emergency Energy
Ability 2 Descr :=

When I scrapped the Center, the button disappeared.
And Self-Destruction seems not to work, could not resist to try it.

[Phoenix-D]

"Heh, it's interesting it gives a "use facility" button! I didn't know SE4 even had one (too bad it isn't used for anything ... or is it?)."

It's used for the resource converter I belive.

Phoenix-D

[PsychoTechFreak]

Uups, it is for both abilities:

Emergency Energy (which is Movement plus for ships), now we just need an engine and the planet could be moved.

And Emergency Resupply, if the button is hit you can choose between resupply fac. and distribution center. Even the view order displays a "use facility" for the turn.

The resource converter has got its own button.

[PvK]

Are these actually doing anything? Can you make a "planetary ship catapult" that with emergency energy (added strategic movement) that will let you bLast ships off from it?

I wouldn't think so, since I assume it doesn't ask you what ship you want to boost, so it would at most add movement or supplies to the planet, which probably has no effect.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

PvK

[TerranC]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by PvK:
so it would at most add movement or supplies to the planet, which probably has no effect.
<hr></blockquote>

*Whee! Our planet is flying! wait a minute, why is everyone dead due to implosion? and the ones that did survive got thrown into the stratosphear?*

*Your darn catapult... I told you it wouldnt work.*

[PsychoTechFreak]

The behavior is similar to starbases, if you add E resupply or E propulsion. E prop (em. Energy) does nothing because at least one movement point is needed. If the one-movement-left thing would be removed, I guess even stellar manip abilities could work with use facility, which would be nice, e.g. destroy planet, create storm, open wormhole and so forth.

[capnq]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> It is quite annoying since one still must build urban pacification centers even if there are Megapolysis around and you get this message "there is already facility with this ability". <hr></blockquote>IIRC, there's a setting in Empire Options to turn off that warning message.