Tactical Use of Various Weapons

[Taera]

Hi everyone.
Im absolutely sure there had been such a topic before, but still, people, how about to post your tactics and strategies to use the various weapons in the game?
I'd post some of mine but im quite short on time so i'll do so tomorrow.

[Cyrien]

For ships I ussually go for smaller size. All the different Cruiser types. For early game use missiles with PD or DUC with PD. Then later switch over to Meson BLasters... maybe PPB if others are not developed in shield tech enough for phased shields to be an issue in the reasonable future. After Mesons go for High Energy Weapons with Rippers mounted on Starbases with Heaviest mount for static defenses in the infrequent areas I employ them. Generally Warp Points, you haven't lived until you see a fleet warp into a few starbases with rippers on steroids for damage and more range than you can shake an APB at with one shot every round... hehe. God that's fun (probably the only reason I ever use static defenses).

I then go for elite training on all ships and fleets, maximize movement rates, centralize defensive fleet positions for maximum efficiency and response times as well as support for each during bad times. Throw in maxed ECM, Combat Sensors and require all ships to have Stealth and Scattering armor. If it is offensive generally throw in 3 or 4 solar panels or a few resupply ships that are dedicated to supplies.

My basic strategy is maximize damage in a steady delivery system or a knock em all out at once system. Meson BLasters deliver the steady stopping power while Wave Motion Guns are great for the initial all out butt stomper and shield burster while still being able to do damage if shields aren't an issue (unlike shield sappers).

Sorry for diverging away from weapons but it is really necessary for a complete discussion of weapons strategies.

I might add more later as I see what other people add in.

[Cylapse]

I'm sure everyone here uses or has used the Tractor / Ripper combo, I mean it makes too much sense not to have at least considered it...

1) Shield Regenerators + Emissive Armor: By itself this armor fooken blows. We all miss it from the SEIII days, but ah well. Stack this armor with shield re-generators, or better yet, organic or crystaline armor abilities, and any damage soaked up by the shields (or armor regen) helps to cut the remaining damage down, often enough so that it falls under Emissive's plate strength. This would be good for those with low shields, but faster recharge. Each 'first volley' during combat would have to puncture shields and then deal with the emissive. Not an overly effective strategy really, especially when against multiple attackers, coz it stresses a superiority on 1:1 combat, but can become obsolete in a 2:1 or 3:1 ratio. Emissive armor sucks, but with some careful (and hopefully balanced) modding Ive made it work like a charm. Together, the emissive and crystal ability (with crystal toned down) would rock.

2) Wormhole beams - This is a working theory, trying to make these useful. If a wormhole beam doesnt require a large shipsize (like tractor does) then it becomes a slightly more useful random element, capable of use by all ship sizes, against any ship size. A nice ranged suite of cannons or long range torpedos, followed by a quick burst or two of WP Beams could render them out of range for a turn or two... (nice to have a second WP Beam, in case the first one actually pulls them closer)... Anyone have experience with these things?

3) Ramming - everyone has speculated on the organic ramming, now has anyone put it to use? Without fooken their ship over in the process? *lol*

I cant offer much here but speculation, SEIV is good for strategy, but unfortunately, the way many weapons are, it leaves people with decent math skills looking to find the true powerhouses, and they all often arise at the same conclusion or set of conclusions. Suppose its where the tech tree and "time to research" fits into the game... balancing is no easy task, its easier to assume that its balanced fine, but the general concensus would disagree.

[TerranC]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Cynapse:
2) Wormhole beams - This is a working theory, trying to make these useful... Anyone have experience with these things?<hr></blockquote>

I have used wormhole beams on my explorer cruisers, and I have to say that it is one of the most useful things I've seen, even though sometimes it pulls you closer than further.

Even with weaker weapons than the oponent, you can fire first, shoot the wormhole gun and he is bLasted far away and eventually it dies. Also very useful to stall ships until turn 30.

Of course there is one downside; somehow, if not used in Tactical, the Wormhole gun has a tendency to create Range check errors, And I lost a lot of games that way.

[Rollo]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Cynapse:
&lt;snip&gt;
3) Ramming - everyone has speculated on the organic ramming, now has anyone put it to use? Without fooken their ship over in the process? *lol*&lt;snip&gt;<hr></blockquote>

Oh yes, I have put them to very good use. A light cruiser fully loaded with organic armor can do a terrible amount of damage. A group of them can destroy whole fleets of destroyers and survive. Quick to research, quick to build and even better on warp points http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif . It is easily countered, but very good for at least one surprise.

Rollo

[Cylapse]

Ughh, range checks?? Ouch! *lol*
Glad to hear that you are using them, sounds cool... I have racked my brain trying to 'see' a way that they are useful, but I havent really playtested it out.

And that organic ramming is sick *lol* I like how ya managed to get it on a light cruiser, something is just wicked about a small, fast craft swooping down at ya in a kamikaze mission... Only to come out alive. *LMAO* What a game.

[Rollo]

Oh, forgot one thing. Organic ram ships are also excellent for disposing of drones. Just ram them before they ram you. You'll only get little damage, because the warhead does not go off http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif .

[Sinapus]

I tend to use DUC's until I get Meson BLaster VI's. After I get lvl 10 torpedos I start adding those in as well, usually arrange them so they fire first. Also tend to use null-space, but not exclusively, having meson bLasters or anti-proton beams as secondary weapons.

Haven't done much with missiles yet. May try something later.

[TerranC]

Missiles remind me:

On usual games, there are those AI's and Human Players that like to use Long range Weapon platforms and Missiles. Lots and Lots of Missiles.

Although I don't make this a priority, On usual after I encounter them Missile liking races (AI examples: Norak, Krill, Terran, Toltoyan, Jreanar) I create Light Cruisers with armed with only Point Defense, and sometimes APB, PPB, or Quantum Torpedoes along with it. I arm it with the latest sensor tech has to offer also.

Makes a mean escort and patrol ship and sometimes fleet leaders in planetary offense and fleet action against missile fleets.

And to breach those Weapon platform guns, (Not Missles) I create a cruiser with the basics, all the latest missiles and get into maximum range and keep firing until they peel away. Then send in a transport or a fleet in for the kill. Can't say that it works 100% as some players are more clever than others, but it's simple and it works... Mostly http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Edit: I can't spell... M... I...

[ 06 May 2002: Message edited by: TerranC ]</p>

[Taz-in-Space]

One weapon combination I found that works well (especially at warp points) is a base loaded with paired engine destroyers/repulsers. One quick zap'n'shove and you not only took a ship out of the fight - you also leave the enemy with useless ships they have to pay for that can't move after the fight! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ( be careful not to allow too many to build up however; they will be there at the next battle!)

[Alpha Kodiak]

I just learned a nasty quirk of engine destroyers (and probably of weapon destroyers and shield destroyers - not drainers, but destroyers) while testing the AI for a new race. Level I and II Ionic Dispersers only do 15 damage if not in an upgraded mount. It takes 20 damage to destroy an engine. The damage doesn't seem to accumulate, so if you put level I or II Ionic Dispersers on a destroyer or smaller, they are essentially useless and just taking up space.

[Baron Munchausen]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Alpha Kodiak:
I just learned a nasty quirk of engine destroyers (and probably of weapon destroyers and shield destroyers - not drainers, but destroyers) while testing the AI for a new race. Level I and II Ionic Dispersers only do 15 damage if not in an upgraded mount. It takes 20 damage to destroy an engine. The damage doesn't seem to accumulate, so if you put level I or II Ionic Dispersers on a destroyer or smaller, they are essentially useless and just taking up space.<hr></blockquote>

Logically, since a deployable weapon system is supposed to be effective, the thing to do is mod them to do 20 points of damage minimum. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif This might make them extremely powerful in standard propulsion model games, since all ships have only 6 engines max, but in a QNP game they would still be relatively balanced.

[capnq]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> The damage doesn't seem to accumulate <hr></blockquote>AAMOF, damage does accumulate; the engine should be destroyed on the second hit.

However, if a component doesn't take enough damage to be destroyed before the combat ends, it automatically goes back to full strength.

[Suicide Junkie]

For most weapons, including normal, skips X, etc, that is true.
However for the Only X weapons, any shot that does not do enough damage to destroy a component will not do damage at all, and the partial damage is not stored.

[Wardad]

Good thing to know.I'm playing a high tech cost game, I'll just have to wait before using Ionic Dispersers.

[LGM]

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
For most weapons, including normal, skips X, etc, that is true.
However for the Only X weapons, any shot that does not do enough damage to destroy a component will not do damage at all, and the partial damage is not stored.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Partial damage is not stored between combats, but it should be between rounds. My understanding is that during combat, partial damage gets stored until the next hit on the vehicle at which time the damage is added to that hit. For example, suppose you hit 100 point piece of organic armor for 45 damage. If the next hit is a null space weapon for 60 damage, the net effect is 105 points of damage that skip armor.

Thus, you should always add damage based weapons in the following order: normal, shield skipping, shield and armor skipping.

If an engine zapper hits for 15 damage and the next hit is a DUC, then the 15 damage SHOULD get added to that. However, if things work as Suicide Junkie suggests, then you cannot use the cheaper ones as noted earlier unless you have larger mounts. Players need to be careful about Weapon killing weapons as well since Large and Huge Mount weapons take more points to take out. In affect, small ships cannot take out the weapons of larger ships using this. Good think to know.

Another thing that will probably happen is that surplus damage will be lost if you do 25 to a ships engine. You will need to design Engine killing ships to always do a multiple of 20. At least Religious races do not have a shrine that reduces damage to their ships, just to hit and damage done to enemies.

[ 09 May 2002, 17:59: Message edited by: LGM ]

[Alpha Kodiak]

Originally posted by capnq:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The damage doesn't seem to accumulate <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">AAMOF, damage does accumulate; the engine should be destroyed on the second hit.

However, if a component doesn't take enough damage to be destroyed before the combat ends, it automatically goes back to full strength.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's possible that it accumulates, but in destroyer vs. destroyer fleet combat, it is hard to get multiple hits on the same destroyer in time to make up for the fact that the other guy is hitting you with weapons that are actually doing damage. Also, there may be an issue where the accumulated engine killing damage would get pooled with the next normal hit against shields. I'm not sure how that works and haven't had much time to try further tests. Others have done some analysis of that in the past, so someone may be able to shine more light on that. At any rate, it seems at least fairly ineffective to use level I or II Ionic Dispersers in normal mounts, even if the damage might eventually do something.

[E. Albright]

I've tested this in tactical [2 or 3 ity-bity engine-killing (I) destroyers along with a cruiser] and found to my dismay that SJ is absolutely, positively correct. I manually shot a given foeman with 2 or more engine killers sequentially and saw no effect...

E. Albright

[ 09 May 2002, 20:27: Message edited by: ealbright ]

[Alpha Kodiak]

Ok, here is the complete scoop on Ionic Dispersers, at least as run from the simulator. There is no carryover of damage from shot to shot, even in the same volley. I set up a group of 5 sats armed only with a single Ionic Disperser II each. Brought a target ship up close and let fly. No matter how many hits, there was no damage done. I switched to Ionic Disperser IVs which do 30 points of damage per hit. In the first volley, there were three hits. That should have caused 90 damage, enough to destroy 4 engines. However, only three engines were destroyed, one per hit. I then switched to Ionic Disperser Vs which do 40 per hit. As expected, each hit destroyed two engines.

My final conclusion, which causes me severe grief in trying to build my latest AI, is that it is a total waste to put unmodded level I or II Ionic Dispersers on destroyer or smaller ships, as well as small satellites. That is tricky enough, but it also means that it is a waste to put Ionic Dispersers that individually do anything other than even multiples of 20 damage when modified by their mounts. Getting the AI to recognize that will be just about impossible. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[Taera]

Anyone has anything interesting about other weapons? I just like to hear otehr people's strategies.