Honor Harrington Mod Discussion

[Phoenix-D]

All right, I'm going to take this one on, ideally to be combined into the SF Crossover. GOLD only however, as it needs elements of the next gold patch, namely the mount changes.

Now, I can do the data files. I can do passable AIs. What I probably can't do is race styles, and I *certainly* can't do race portraits!

Also, if anyone has any input I've love to hear it. I have all the books, and will be using them as referenes (esp. the tech bible section at the end of some!) but any ideas/opinions on exactly how to impliment would be great.

Thus far, concept stage:
-I'll be sticking true to the sizes. In other words, send a BB against a DN, expect the DN to die. Send FOUR BCs against a DN, expect the BCs to die. Quickly. Balanced by the fact that capital ships are much, much harder to build.

-Most missiles will be drones with short ranged one-shot weapons or ramming warheads. Ghost Rider missiles will have *one* strategic movement point, simulating their longer range. All drones with have a very small supply storage; use em or loose em.

-LACs replace fighters. This means LACs can't fire laser-head missiles. Ideas on how to get around this?

-Mounts will be useable on ANY ship- but ideally the larger mounts will have drawbacks that make them prefered in capital ships (large supply usage)

-supply system: reactors will simply be supply storage. This is a reactor+it's fuel supply, so it's assumed that if the reactor goes so does the fuel. Energy weapons and engines will use quite a bit of supply, so the player will have to be careful about budgeting it. Nothing else will store supply, so the ships will always need at least one reactor.

-Propulsion system: right now it looks like this: There are two Impeller Rings, Alpha and Beta. These give standard movement points and are limited to one per ship. The mount system will be used to vary the power levels and restrict access to various nodes (you can't put a SD node in a DD, the thing would tear itself to bits).

-the wedge: I'm out of ideas here..SE4 doesn't seem to allow this. May just have to give the nodes a certain amount of shield generation or ECM.

Inertial Compensators will probably give extra combat movement points. No sails, since there is no hyper in SE4. Alternatively they may be WP openers/closers, but I don't care for this one.

Phoenix-D

[Marvin Kosh]

Well, um, you could get the feel of hyperspace by distributing an edited map with a number of nebulae sectors which render shields useless.

Also, might be nice to stick in the grav lance and the energy torps as in 'The Short Victorious War' (or was it one of the other ones?) So you have a massive shield depleter or something that takes hideous amounts of time to reload, and then torps that do a lot of damage but only to unshielded targets. And make sure everyone has shield tech so they can't complain http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

It would be really cool if you could replicate the effects of the nodes in combat, because in tactical combat at least you would then have to really manoeuvre for ideal firing position. But there aren't any shield arcs in the game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

I would suggest that you mark out the speed difference between the classes for combat, because while the bigger ships survive by sticking to a wall formation and drenching the opposition in missiles, the smaller ships depend on their manoeuverability to survive. Maybe gently nudge their defensive bonus?

I like the idea of the mount system for the propulsion system.... you can buy more speed but it'll cost you space and bucks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif But you might want to give them a heck of a damage resistance because otherwise it will be real easy to cripple ships.

One other thing I like the idea of is adding a Damage Control Parties component to the ship. Sort of a scaled-down Version of a Repair Bay.

That's all the idea I have at the moment....

[EDIT] spelling

[ June 19, 2002, 03:16: Message edited by: Marvin Kosh ]

[Phoenix-D]

The hyperspace map thing is too limited, really, and still doesn't quite fit.

There is no "can't hurt shields" damage type in SE4. So the energy torps (from On Basilk Station BTW) would have to be toned down in power.

I suppose I could make all weapons EXCEPT the torps do 4x to shields, then have the torps skip armor..

re: the nodes: I'm probably going to make them provide high amounts of ECM, simulating the fact that you can't hit a third of the ship. And after all, in the HH universe if you lose the wedge in combat.. you're screwed. Loosing a lot of ECM would hurt pretty badly too.

The smaller ships do tend to manuver more, probably because the *can* manuver more, where the others tend to close in for massed PD fire. So the smaller ships will have higher inherent ECM, and the larger ships will want to use the Wall formation (or varients) for the extra missile defense.

The nodes will be pretty big; I'm representing the entire system in two parts, so those parts will be bulky. Engine destroyers don't really fit HH tech anyway, so they'll probably be out.

Phoenix-D

[ June 19, 2002, 03:22: Message edited by: Phoenix-D ]

[RWittman]

First of all, great news that you are taking on this diffcult task. I can't wait to try it out. I would be glad to help, but I have no SE4 mod experince. I could beta test or anything else to help. I love the books and have read it twice through. One question, I thought a DN was bigger then a BB (only the Peep's used BB, and they were for system garrision. Only massed for space combat as an idea to give the Peep's some fodder.) But in your example you said DN vs BB, DN dies ?

[Dead Meat]

-LACs replace fighters. This means LACs can't fire laser-head missiles. Ideas on how to get around this? <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't think that you would be able to get around this with missles being drones, sense units can't launch stuff (though i could be wrong). What you might have to do instead is just have a normal missle for fighters (rocket pods), lower the amount of damage and lower the to hit % so ships could still doge. Remember that LACs wheren't realy use effectivly till the Manties came up with the fore and aft side walls and the LAC carrier. Not to mention the stealth techology so they could get in close to be effective. Till then, they where mostly Last ditch, system defence ships.

I like the Missle = Drones idea. Don't forget that each ship class has a diffrent size missle (not to mention how much ammo they hold) which relates to the damage the missles do. Example would be that a DDs missle is way smaller than a DNs. But where a DN would laugh if a DDs missle hit it, the DD would more or less just disapair if hit by a DNs cap missle. I know one of the books (hard cover?) shows the relations of ship to each other and the size relation of missle for the diffrent ship sizes.

In other words, send a BB against a DN, expect the DN to die. Send FOUR BCs against a DN, expect the BCs to die. Quickly. Balanced by the fact that capital ships are much, much harder to build. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">RWittman, right. the BB would lose to a DN. BBs are smaller than DN, but bigger than BCs. You are right about the 4 BC vs a DN. I love that account where Edward Pierre and his 2 BC division got wiped out by that lone DN (see: The Short Victorious War).

[Phoenix-D]

"But in your example you said DN vs BB, DN dies ? "

Uh.. TYPO! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Yeah, you're correct.

"Remember that LACs wheren't realy use effectivly till the Manties came up with the fore and aft side walls and the LAC carrier. Not to mention the stealth techology so they could get in close to be effective. Till then, they where mostly Last ditch, system defence ships."

Right, but it's those LACs that relied more on the missile launchers. Eggshells with sledgehammers.

"I know one of the books (hard cover?) shows the relations of ship to each other and the size relation of missle for the diffrent ship sizes."

Got it, using it. They'll be different sized drones, with different sized warheads, ECM mounts, armor/shield (probably shield) etc. Nothing will stop a DD from using a SD's missiles, but it won't be able to carry many of them.

"I love that account where Edward Pierre and his 2 BC division got wiped out by that lone DN (see: The Short Victorious War)."

In one salvo no less..oopsie on their part. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Phoenix-D]

OK, mounts cannot effect engine speed.. time to think up another propulsion system.

EDIT: got it. This system won't be able to stop a DD from using an SD's nodes.. but I can probably just make the SD's nodes HUGE, so the DD can't really use them.

The 'one per vehicle' restriction works by component family, and it works even if the components are seperated by unrelated components.

So it'll look like:
Small Impeller Drive I-V
Small Beta Node Ring I-V
Impeller Drive I-V
Beta Node Ring I-V
Large Impeller Drive I-V
Large Beta Node Ring I-V
Capital Impeller Drive I-V
Captial Beta Node Ring I-V

The larger the system, the more speed you get, and the worse the supply usage is. And you won't be able to mount more than one Impeller Drive or Beta Node Ring, because they're all the same family. This will confuse the living hell out of the AI, but oh well.

Suggestions on names?

Phoenix-D

[ June 19, 2002, 21:18: Message edited by: Phoenix-D ]

[Dead Meat]

Um I think I'm lost. I'm think that the Impeller Ring and Nodes (the drive) are 2 diffrent things. The Ring holds the Nodes right?

What about doing it this way.

Have you concidered using SJ Propulsion system (forget the name. Bigger ship = more engines needed for same movment). IMO this would work well concidering that, while all ships in HH are suppose to reach the same top speed, smaller ships are able to accelrate faster than bigger ships (its in the tech bible).

So propulsion would works like this.

Each ship has to have an Alpha and Beta Impeller Ring (required) that gives you a standard +1 movment point. The size could very depending on the size of the ship or not. I think thats what your getting at with the Small Impeller Node Ring, Imperller Node Ring and Larg Impeller Node Ring, right? If so you could simply name them; DD Impeller Rings, BC Impeller Rings, DN Impeller Rings and so on. While I don't know how to stop someone from using a DD ring on a DN you can make a minaiml size requirement so it can not fit on a smalle ship (which might be a good reason to just have them all the same size, but where the fun in that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ). You could also think about having a Impeller Drive reasurch field which is seperate from the normal propulsion field.

Next the Nodes, which if I understand it right, will be like (and work like) normal SE4 engines, just change the name. You could either keep the same size for all the node regardless of the ship size or not. But I don't remember their being any diffrent sizes for DD nodes or DN nodes. I could be wrong, but if i remember correctly how fast a ship was able to accelrate related to not how big its nodes where but how they where placed on the Impeller Ring (you could only space them so close together, but you only had so much hull space to work with). Any of that make sense? My guess is that you would want Alpha and Beta Nodes in which case you might be able to have a requirment of equal number of Alpha and Beta Nodes on the ship. (But the only thing diffrent between Alpha and Beta Nodes is the name)

Thier would have to balance with price/size and how fast you want the ships to move. But I think it could work.

[Phoenix-D]

"Um I think I'm lost. I'm think that the Impeller Ring and Nodes (the drive) are 2 diffrent things. The Ring holds the Nodes right?"

Yes, but right now they're combined into one unit for the sake of simplicity.

"Have you concidered using SJ Propulsion system (forget the name. Bigger ship = more engines needed for same movment). IMO this would work well concidering that, while all ships in HH are suppose to reach the same top speed, smaller ships are able to accelrate faster than bigger ships (its in the tech bible)."

This results in higher top speeds with more engines; I'm not sure you can just slap more nodes in the HH system..you can make them more powerful but add more?

"ship has to have an Alpha and Beta Impeller Ring (required) that gives you a standard +1 movment point. The size could very depending on the size of the ship or not."

Can be varied depending on the NODE size, but not the ship size. SE4 doesn't go there.

"I think thats what your getting at with the Small Impeller Node Ring, Imperller Node Ring and Larg Impeller Node Ring, right? If so you could simply name them; DD Impeller Rings, BC Impeller Rings, DN Impeller Rings and so on. While I don't know how to stop someone from using a DD ring on a DN you can make a minaiml size requirement so it can not fit on a smalle ship (which might be a good reason to just have them all the same size, but where the fun in that )."

Can't restrict them based on ship sizes other than making them not fit; it's why I'm calling them small-Capital rather than DD-SD. It would look a little weird seeing a SD with a DD impeller drive..

"You could also think about having a Impeller Drive reasurch field which is seperate from the normal propulsion field."

The impeller drive field IS the propulsion field in this mod http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Well, I suppose there are reaction thrusters, but those are so limited I'm not going to bother moding them.

"Next the Nodes, which if I understand it right, will be like (and work like) normal SE4 engines, just change the name. You could either keep the same size for all the node regardless of the ship size or not. But I don't remember their being any diffrent sizes for DD nodes or DN nodes. I could be wrong, but if i remember correctly how fast a ship was able to accelrate related to not how big its nodes where but how they where placed on the Impeller Ring (you could only space them so close together, but you only had so much hull space to work with)."

It depends on the node's *power* IIRC; and I think you're right in that you can't just go slapping nodes wherever you want. Which is why the node ring idea; it doesn't feel right to me to just put in more impeller nodes for more speed. You could have a DN filled with nothing but alpha nodes that way.

"Any of that make sense? My guess is that you would want Alpha and Beta Nodes in which case you might be able to have a requirment of equal number of Alpha and Beta Nodes on the ship. (But the only thing diffrent between Alpha and Beta Nodes is the name)"

Can't be done- you can't require a ship to have anything other the Bridge, Life Support, Crew Quarters, Fighter Bays, Cargo Bays, or colony modules. The Alpha and Beta nodes are different according to Ashes of Victory's tech drawings- the betas are much smaller.

Not sure I follow your system though. If all the impeller drive unit did was provide one movement point.. why bother mounting it?

Phoenix-D

[RWittman]

I thought that the real limiting factor on acceleration was the inertial compensator. I'm thinking that most warships could push a much higher gee level, but the inertial compensator can only produce so much "compensation" else the crew turns to goo.

I remember that as nodes were damaged in combat, the ships speed would be reduced. I belive that you could lose a few nodes with no loss of acceleration, but after that it would have an impact.

[Phoenix-D]

Right, but try modeling that in SE4.. I haven't come up with a way yet. SE4 doesn't do acceleration, and the IC allows fast acceleration.

Phoenix-D

[Phoenix-D]

OK, it's going.. I have the propulsion system set up, and I'm working on getting the armor and sidewalls right.

The hardest part is the scale; I've already bumped the size of the smaller ships up a bit, but creating components to go in ships that range from 80 kt to 8000 kt is a pain!

Phoenix-D

[Phoenix-D]

Sidewalls are still being a pain in the butt.

Question: what's the amount of time you'd consider reasonable to make a high-tech SD? Right now I've got SDs that take upwards of half a decade to build (when filled with standard SE4 tech and my Impeller system)

Phoenix-D

[RWittman]

I think it should be more like 2-3 years. The space yards in HH are much larger then in SEIV, can the limit of one per planet be changed or maybe just the total amount of resources built per turn be raised.

[Phoenix-D]

Can be done. Aren't most of the major yards off-planet? So the faster yards will probably be space station based.

Phoenix-D

[dumbluck]

It can be done. SJ did it for P&N. Basically, you build something called a "Space Yard Extension" or some such. Then you UPGRADE the extension into a full shipyard. You need to talk to SJ for the details, though.

[Phoenix-D]

I didn't say "can't" dumbluck, but that doesn't really fit anyway.. at least from what I can tell

[RWittman]

I thought all SY were orbital anyway. If you want the pop mod you need to be on a high pop planet.

If you look at the Grayson Space Navy as an example. They have few SY (Blackbird being the largest) yet they produce lots of SD's and the like. Remenber that the GSN had more SD(p)'s than the RMN and all of those were produced in just a few years.

[sachmo]

I don't know how much this might help in the race designs or anything, but it might give some help with components...
Anyway, I stumbled across this site and thought I would post it in case it would be of help to someone!

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~tpope/misc/harrington/nefarious-list.html

[sachmo]

I don't know how much this might help in the race designs or anything, but it might give some help with components...
Anyway, I stumbled across this site and thought I would post it in case it would be of help to someone!

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~tpope/misc/harrington/nefarious-list.html

[Phoenix-D]

Nice site, though it's slightly out of date.

"I thought all SY were orbital anyway. If you want the pop mod you need to be on a high pop planet."

I can't make them ALL orbital, otherwise you'd never be able to build ships! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Probably the first thing a player will want to do is build a space yard. The planetary yards will be quite slow except on large worlds with large amounts of space devoted to shipbuilding.

RWittman: there is another problem with the yards. Most HH universe yards produce more than one ship be yard; they've massive beasts.

Space Empires ship yards can only work on ONE thing a turn. Haven't figured out how I will address that yet..

Phoenix-D

[jimbob]

How about more efficient space yards for bases? 400-450kT to keep 'em off ships for the first bit of the game, but allow them on space stations. Have a build rate of 2000-3000 min/org/rads per "month". Now your planetary yards have a "reasonable" build speed to get players going, but then the "good" build speed will be acheived from those gargantuan space yards.

[ July 10, 2002, 00:33: Message edited by: jimbob ]

[Phoenix-D]

Probably what will happen.

Mines: in The Short Victorious War, these things sound like missiles with quick-burn engines and cloaking devices. I dislike the standard SE4 mine system, so I probably will do one of two things:

-Make components that let drone missiles be used as mines
-Make the SATELITES the mines

they both have their problems. Sat mines won't be able to move, and will be unable to attack unless the enemy is stupid enough to get in range. Drone mines will enable any ship with missile launchers to "fire" mines. No dedicated minelayers.

I'm waiting to see what the new component mounts can do before going too far; I may just make three sizes of armor and then use armor mounts to make them bigger for larger ships.

Sidewalls are STILL giving me problems. The crystalline ability would be ideal, but it's not playing nice; it's only regening the shields when a hit reduces the shields to 0 and damages something inside. OK, fine; but I've also managed to make ships totally invulnerable this way..ooops. Crystalline ability plus no-breach component damage = component damage VANISHES. In other words, if you pound an 90 Kt armor component down to 1 KT, the shield regnerates 89 KT. Fine, works as expected. The thing is, if the next shot doesn't breach the shields, that damage disappears. ARRRRRRRRG.

Weapons: "Down the throat" and "up the kilt" shots will be represented by special components that totally skip shields. On the bad side, they'll also have a really obscene negative to-hit- probably an average of 30% less chance to hit than the equivilent normal weapon. Each weapon will have several size variations.

Energy torpedos: these are useless against sidewalls. SE4 doesn't have a damage type that works like that! Two options: either make every other component 4x damage to shields and the torps *not*, or the energy torps will be inaccurate and skip shields- in other words, "down the throat" weapons only.

Grav Lance: will burn out sidewall generators totally.

One thing: on the weapons and armor, they're two options. 1: use mounts to represent the more powerful armor and weapons on larger ships. Two: use the same system as the sidewalls. I.e. each type of armor or weapon has variations in size, say:
Laser 50cm 1-10 (or 50cm Laser 1-10)
Laser 100cm 1-10
Laser 150cm 1-10
Laser 200cm 1-10
Laser 250cm 1-10
Laser 300cm 1-10
etc
I'm using 1-whatever because that seems to fit the universe better.. and because I'm going to have really obscene numbers of tech levels for some stuff. Hence the lack of Roman numerals. XII is bad enough. Imagine XXX. or worse, XXXXVIII. Looks like a freaking Bolo novel.. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

The early game will be cheap, and tech will come fast and easy.. but once you start getting into the upper 20s you'll be feeling the hurt even on Low tech cost. Not sure how high I'll go.

Opinions on any of this?

Phoenix-D

[Skulky]

{EDIT} WOW IM STUPID, Shiva Option is from Starfire, wow im figured out now! Gotta go read two sets of books haha

Sadly, I've only read "The Shiva Option" but i think it would be really cool, once this is all done to some scnearios, like the start of the bug war (before Shiva) and then some mini scenarios, like the battle for Justin (and put these mini battles in 3 or 4 system galaxies) or the attack on Home Hive 1 and the retreat/ambush. or the battle where they meet the "old enemies" Star Federation?

Also, how are you going to do things like primary packs? i wish you could specify what something targets. What is the grav lance? Is it the little projectile that accelerates to something like 30% of c?

While anyway, i'm terribly confused as to which universe shiva is set in and where all the rest of the books fall in. If someone coudl please set me straight that would be lovely.

And one Last thought... You could make gunboats (jump capable of course, but not able to be held in ships racks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif ) by requiring only a bridge, or a specific component (cause you really don't need to living comps, you could make one of them into Life +crew quarters, and the other into something else you want to require) adn then set them at a low size with inherent move bonus' and other stuff.

More questions, i just can't stop... how about suicide riders, both SRHAWK and the bug Versions that are LC's(?) and what about interpentration? I guess some of this has to be given up because this just can't be done with the current engine.

ahhhh, of to find more of the books...

[ July 12, 2002, 03:21: Message edited by: Skulky ]

[Phoenix-D]

I am going to have to hurt you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I haven't read Shiva Option yet!

Phoenix-D

[geoschmo]

Honor Harrington is a girl?!? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

I heard some much about these Weber books from you people on the forum and decided to check it out. Weber and his publisher, Baen Books, has graciously (and smartly I think) put the first book (Basilik Station) in the series on their free Online library (http://www.baen.com/). Read the first couple chapters and it looks very interesting. Probably going to have to pick this one up.

Geoschmo

[ July 12, 2002, 19:03: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

[Baron Munchausen]

Heh...

I just read those two free books in the Last few days. Interesting technical universe. I like it. It's much more realistic then Treknology, but it's different from the usual 'gritty' war story universe like Starship Troopers.

Honor Harrington herself is Horatio Hornblower recast (note the initials!) if the books hold true to the form of the first two through the entire series. She keeps getting promotions to 'unusual responsibility' for her age and sets to work uncovering the secret machinations of the enemy or enemies. Once she's figured things out, the enemy has to play his hand and it's broadside after broadside until both sides are reduced to shreds, with Honor Harrington winning by a smidge. She's gonna need a new ship for every novel. She always finds a reason to use her superior strength (from growing up on a high gravity world) to smack some men around, too.

[ July 12, 2002, 19:59: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

[Trajan]

If you have not read the Harrington novels, and you are a fan of Military Sci-Fi, then you are missing out on some very good books.

In a nutt-shell, Honor (chick hero) gets into some really bad situation(s), kicks someones butt, gets deeper into the bad situation, gets her own behind kicked, finds and implements a nearly impossible solution that will get a lot of people killed yet save the world/star system/galaxy and then gets a promotion or somehow becomes a significant politician/ruler/leader on a planet that she saves. Occasionally she gets her eye shot out or an arm broken/amputated, but basically she wins in every book.

Oh....one more thing...She has a six legged cat that enjoys eating celery and killing Honor's enemies.

I really look forward to the HH mod but I am wondering how they will implement the Tree Cats into the Mod.

Cheers!
Trajan

[ July 12, 2002, 20:10: Message edited by: Trajan ]

[Hiruu]

Hey Geoschmo,

Honor Harrington isn't a girl, she's a War Goddess!!!

Anybody hear anything about the next book in the HH series, it's due out in Nov...War of Honor!!! I just started playing Space Empires again,...alot, and I also just got done reading Shiva Option (I read almost all of Weber's stuff!), so I thought to myself, this would make some great mods, but somebody already thought of it!

The Fifth Imperium series would be cool as well, with those huge planetiods. Dalhak would cool!

[Phoenix-D]

"She's gonna need a new ship for every novel."

Pretty much. As far as mass destruction goes, you ain't seen nothing yet..

And no, I'm not touching the treecats with a ten foot pole. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Phoenix-D

[sachmo]

Yes, my universe was very much influenced by the Honorverse, but it seems to have taken a bit of a turn. The dang game won't cooperate! All the action keeps happening where Jager isn't!

[ July 12, 2002, 23:09: Message edited by: sachmo ]

[Phoenix-D]

this is being one momumental PITA..

Right now I have a serious problem. If I keep the launchers small enough that little ships can use them, the BIG ships can fire a really obscene numbers of missiles. SE4's combat system doesn't handle that very well..

Phoenix-D

[geoschmo]

Phoenix, with the next patch there is something that should help. It gives you the capability for a mount to have a max tonnage as well as the minimum you are used to using. You could make a mount for the seekers that only works for smaller hulls and reduces the size of the missle component. This is exactly what we had in mind when we suggested this change.

If you don't like that though you could also put an arbitrary limit on the number of missle comps allowed. The most you can do there is ten per ship. That would keep the big ships from cramming them on. That's in the next patch too, if it's not already enabled in 1.67. I can't remember right now.

Geoschmo

[ July 14, 2002, 15:18: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

[ZeroAdunn]

But it isn't normal missile comps he is using. He has modded drones so they are now missiles.

[Phoenix-D]

Zero is correct, the ships are firing drones. And since a drone launcher will fire a 15kt drone just as easily as a 3kt one, I'm having problems getting things right.

Limiting the launchers to ten per ship or five per ship would help somewhat, but that's still 5 missiles fired *per combat turn* per ship. It ends up with so many drones that they not only slow things down drasticlly, they get in each other's way!

Phoenix-D

[geoschmo]

Ok, well you can also use the mounts for the drone launchers. Same principle. The launcher would launch the same number, but the smaller ships would have a mount that made them take up less space on the ship. You can use mounts for non weapons now. And with the new patch you will be able to specify families that mounts can only be used for, so you could limit the mount to only the launcher comp.

Geoschmo

[Phoenix-D]

Hmm. That has potential.

Phoenix-D

[Pax]

Make it one component per ship,a nd have increasing tech levels make the component larger and larger, with more and more capacity for per-turn launches.

IOW, DroneMissile Launcher I is 20kT, launces one per turn.

Launcher II is 30kT, launces two per turn.

Launcer III is 40 kT, launches 3 per turn.

And so on, maybe up to a Launcher X, which pops out ten each turn, but weighs over 100kT. Back them up with enhanced cargo capacity, and you get low ROF, high-ammo ships.

Just as an idea ...

[Phoenix-D]

Basiclly combine all the launcher on the ship into one? Also a possibility, though I'm not sure I like that one very much..

I'm not using mounts for weapons, except maybe the missile launchers. The Grasers, for example, currently are:

100cm Graser
150cm Graser
200cm Graser
400cm Graser
600cm Graser (which weighs 300kt and does 1300 damage http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif )

Phoenix-D

[Baron Munchausen]

This is an example of the sort of situation where seperate 'supplies' and 'ordnance' would be useful. You could have 'missile magazines' and 'missile launchers' as seperate components. Only the magazines would have ordnance storage. The launchers would just have the ability to fire. You could then play the same 'fire power or staying power' balancing game as you see described in the HH books. But we'd also need a far larger combat map and a vastly greater missile range to account for the differences between missile and energy weapons in the HH universe.

[Phoenix-D]

Baron, I already have everything you've mentioned.

-No storge in the launcher, so you must have space for the drones you fire.
-Drones can be fired from anywhere in combat, so they greatly outrange the longest seeker or beam weapon
-Missile range can be extended by giving the drones strategic move- allowing missile bombardment from one or two sectors away.

The other big issue right now is how do I stop the player from putting 50000 missiles on a planet then firing them all at the first enemy to come by..

Phoenix-D

[Baron Munchausen]

So a drone launcher is called a 'missile tube' in your mod, huh? You could add a small missile component that only targets drones and call it 'anti-missiles' or 'point defense missiles' too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif But I hope your missile launchers are all only one per turn, with possibly a 'special tech' that allows a large and expensive launcher to do more than that.

How big are the drones in your mod? Have you shrunk them to fighter size or are they still 100+ kt?

The thing about using drones as missiles is that they have no range limit at all, so anywhere on the combat map is 'in range' for missiles. Kinda messes up the strategic maneuvering issue. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I hope MM will extend missile range another 10 squares even in SE IV, and of course expand the combat map and all weapons ranges even more in SE V.

The AI problem is another reason that drones as missiles is not such a good idea. I have noticed that ALL drones will be launchd on any planet when it is attacked. Argh... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[Phoenix-D]

"So a drone launcher is called a 'missile tube' in your mod, huh? You could add a small missile component that only targets drones and call it 'anti-missiles' or 'point defense missiles' too. But I hope your missile launchers are all only one per turn, with possibly a 'special tech' that allows a large and expensive launcher to do more than that."

Counter Missiles actually. Along with PD lasers and (early tech) PD Autocannons.

"How big are the drones in your mod? Have you shrunk them to fighter size or are they still 100+ kt?"

3-15kt. (Keep in mind the ship sizes are 100-8000kt)

"The thing about using drones as missiles is that they have no range limit at all, so anywhere on the combat map is 'in range' for missiles. Kinda messes up the strategic maneuvering issue."

"I hope MM will extend missile range another 10 squares even in SE IV, and of course expand the combat map and all weapons ranges even more in SE V."

Yup. I STILL would have to use drones though. You can't make a standoff missile warhead, it has to come into contact.

"The AI problem is another reason that drones as missiles is not such a good idea. I have noticed that ALL drones will be launchd on any planet when it is attacked. Argh... "

Oh great. It's still the only way though.

Phoenix-D

[killer]

Grav Lance? Energy Torpedo? ECM that works on seekers?

[Phoenix-D]

ECM working on seekers is taken care of because I'm not USING seekers.

Grav lance is easy- it kills sidewall generators.

E Torps are.. a pain. SE4 doesn't have a "can't hurt shields" damage type..

Right now I'm waiting on the patch because as SE4 is right now this isn't working.

Phoenix-D

[Puke]

so how do sidewalls work? just as shields? do drone warheads (missiles, i presume) skip shields? maybe they should be shields that regenerate 100% per turn. do engines generate their own shields?

[Phoenix-D]

1. Currently sidewalls work like so:
They generate, say, 200 shield. (Capital ships use Phased shields)
They RE generate equal to half their initial level (so, 100)

The drive components have crystaline shield ability. Bigger the drive, the higher the effect, and it's big effect. So when your shields are breached, they'll be restored.. IF the shot didn't damage an engine component. If it did, you are in serious trouble.

2. Drone warheads are direct-fire weapons that fire from 4-5 spaces out (laser heads) to 1 space (contact nuke). They don't skip shields.

3. Most any weapon can be made to skip shields by using a special varient component. This simulates a shot down the open throat of the ship's wedge. The problem is these components have a nasty negative to-hit.

Phoenix-D

[killer]

Let me rephrase that. ECM that works on missiles

[Baron Munchausen]

Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
ECM working on seekers is taken care of because I'm not USING seekers.

Grav lance is easy- it kills sidewall generators.

E Torps are.. a pain. SE4 doesn't have a "can't hurt shields" damage type..

Right now I'm waiting on the patch because as SE4 is right now this isn't working.

Phoenix-D<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think he's referring to some sort of ECM that affects seekers ability to hit. We've been asking MM to do this for a long time. He doesn't seem to want to do it.

The next patch will have a damage type 'Quarter Damage to Shields' which will provide quite a serious penalty against shields. This sounds like a good simulation of 'sidewall' deflection of energy weapons.

And... you could use the 'Only Shield Generators' damage type to create a Grav Lance. Too bad SE doesn't have shield facings and you have to knock out ALL of the shield generators to get a clear shot.

[ July 27, 2002, 19:58: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

[Phoenix-D]

"I think he's referring to some sort of ECM that affects seekers ability to hit. We've been asking MM to do this for a long time. He doesn't seem to want to do it."

Again, I'm not using seekers so this is no problem. The missile (drone) warheads are direct fire..

(in other words, if you want to rant on unrelated stuff, please don't hijack this thread with it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )

Phoenix-D

[Mind Elemental]

If the largest graser is 300 kt... is the BC-grade graser(second largest? third largest?) gonna be small enough to shoehorn into a LAC?

[Noble713]

The largest grasers are not battlecruiser grasers, but dreadnought/superdreadnought grasers. Then comes battleship weapons, then battlecruiser weapons.

A dreadnought (not even a superdreadnought) took the fire of multiple (I think 4) enemy battlecruisers with no damage, but in return blew them all to pieces. There is a fairly large capability gap between BCs and ships of the wall.

Aren't LACS about 20,000 tons? That would make them 20kT, so you sure as hell can't fit a 300kT weapon in them.

[Phoenix-D]

No, you're not shoehorning a DN graser into a LAC. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif The BC grasers are smaller and much less effective. Not surprising considering that a BC is something like 10 times smaller than a DN..the advanced LACs still have to use different components though.

The HH Mod ships are mounting less weapons overall than the actual ships, just to keep things somewhat sane and avoid SE4 screaming in pain and crashing.

Phoenix-D

[Mind Elemental]

Re: LACs, thanks for the clarification! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Yeah, the game might not like 60+ weapons on an SD. XD

Are weapon platforms and sats going to be more useful than they were in the books, considering that SE4 probably cannot model cee-fractional missile strikes?

Will ringworlds/sphereworlds at tech levels waaaaay beyond the books be added in? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Phoenix-D]

No sphereworlds, no ringworlds.

"Are weapon platforms and sats going to be more useful than they were in the books, considering that SE4 probably cannot model cee-fractional missile strikes?"

Sats yes, WPs not likely. I still need to find a way around the "store 50000 missiles on a planet then launch them en-masse" problem..

Phoenix-D

[Growltigga]

I am a great fan of the honour harrington books and whilst I have kept quiet so far, I would like to contribute sensibly to this thread, albeit that I have no abilities as a modder.

I think the size of the drones aka missiles is going to be the keypoint here. IIRC the 'Fearless' in "On Basilisk Station" had storage for about 120 missiles - for the storage for these to fit on a light cruiser, you obviously need to massivley downsize the size of the drones (and possbily use fighter size components on them).

My next thought is that this could work for laser head missiles, in addtion to the warhead and the engines (I think you would need to design missile specific double/triple speed engines) you could add combat sensors to replicate the effect of penaids, and ECM to reflect the effect of jammers, and if you could stack these compoenents, that would allow you to create the pure jammer missile concept Rafe Cardones nailed the Sirius with.

[ August 09, 2002, 14:28: Message edited by: Growltigga ]

[Suicide Junkie]

ECM components will stack if they have different family numbers.

You should probably make each successive ECM component provide diminishing returns.

[Growltigga]

SJ, I didn't know this. Does that mean that I can put ECM I AND ECM II on my vessels and that they will stack up?

[oleg]

Originally posted by Growltigga:
SJ, I didn't know this. Does that mean that I can put ECM I AND ECM II on my vessels and that they will stack up?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No. It is because they belong to the same family number and only have different roman numerical numbers. To make them stacck, you must edit components.txt file.

[Phoenix-D]

"I think the size of the drones aka missiles is going to be the keypoint here. IIRC the 'Fearless' in "On Basilisk Station" had storage for about 120 missiles - for the storage for these to fit on a light cruiser, you obviously need to massivley downsize the size of the drones (and possbily use fighter size components on them)."

Correct.. and remember that there are different sized missiles. That may get me out of this jam actually. I'll make the high-damamging capital missiles pretty big, as well as the warheads, but restrict all the warheads to one per drone so you can't just load up on the more efficient per KT smaller missiles. Combine that with increased missile storage space, increased population size, reduced planetary storage, and BIG troops, and this may just work..

"My next thought is that this could work for laser head missiles, in addtion to the warhead and the engines (I think you would need to design missile specific double/triple speed engines) you could add combat sensors to replicate the effect of penaids, and ECM to reflect the effect of jammers, and if you could stack these compoenents, that would allow you to create the pure jammer missile concept Rafe Cardones nailed the Sirius with."

Already doing it..also pure armor missiles, etc. The only problem is there's no way I can see to control when they're launched.

ECM abilities do stack, and I'm using that to my advantage. The impeller wedge components do a lot of things for the ship- and they give a 65% ECM bonus EACH. But each hull has a -100% to-hit built into it. So you loose the wedge and you're a sitting duck in more ways than one.

Phoenix-D

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by Phoenix-D:(from Microdrone thread)
HH mod uses it. See that thread for the major issues.

The problems are you can't target the drones manually in tactical (they attack always using their strategy), a lot of drones will actually get in each others way, you can't set a fire rate of below 1 per turn, and they will always outrange any other weapon.

Phoenix-D<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Phoenix,

Why Direct Fire warheads instead of contact ones? Is this something that fits with the HH universe, or a workaround for some problem you came across trying to implement the missle drones.

What do you mean by "the Drones get in each others way"? I can see a hundred drones with direct fire weapons milling about could be a problem, since they dont' stack like fighters. Is that what you mean? I wonder if maybe my first question has the answer for the second. If you change the warheads back to ramming warheads don't you eliminate the problem of them getting in each others way?

Your other three problems stated in your post aren't really problems for the mod I am considering.

The store 50,000 drones and launch them at the first fleet that attacks would be a problem. However, it would actually be a problem for attacker and defender as well, since once launched the drones cannot be recovered a simple single ship probing defenses would clear out any stockpile of drone missles and these two things would cancel each other out and make the defenders less likely to attempt this tactic, don't you think?

Geoschmo

[ August 09, 2002, 20:15: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

[sachmo]

If you want to use them, I uploaded some design name files under the mods section from the honorverse. Just to reiterate, I make no claims on their completeness, but you might be able to use them as a starting place when you are ready. Or, you can just throw them in your game! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Phoenix-D]

"Why Direct Fire warheads instead of contact ones? Is this something that fits with the HH universe, or a workaround for some problem you came across trying to implement the missle drones."

Ramming is not affected by ECM; HH universe missiles are very much affected by ECM. So the contact warheads are range-1 single shot. The HH books also have a weapon called the laser-head missile; it's a bomb-driven laser mounted on a missile. Missile flies to within 40k kilometers, denonates the bomb which fires the laser at the target.. it's also supposed to destroy the missile, but I can't make SE4 do that.

"What do you mean by "the Drones get in each others way"? I can see a hundred drones with direct fire weapons milling about could be a problem, since they dont' stack like fighters. Is that what you mean? I wonder if maybe my first question has the answer for the second. If you change the warheads back to ramming warheads don't you eliminate the problem of them getting in each others way?"

No, you don't. The HH universe also has ships firing *obscene* numbers of missiles to saturate the enemy point defense. I've cut that down by at least a factor of 10, but in a major fleet battle there will STILL be hundreds of drones flying around; even before they get to the target they get in each other's way because they can't stack. I suppose I could use fighters for the missiles instead of drones, but then I wouldn't be able to do another component, that is light attack craft.

"Your other three problems stated in your post aren't really problems for the mod I am considering."

Good..

"The store 50,000 drones and launch them at the first fleet that attacks would be a problem. However, it would actually be a problem for attacker and defender as well, since once launched the drones cannot be recovered a simple single ship probing defenses would clear out any stockpile of drone missles and these two things would cancel each other out and make the defenders less likely to attempt this tactic, don't you think?"

Perhaps. We'll have to see I guess..

Phoenix-D

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
Ramming is not affected by ECM; HH universe missiles are very much affected by ECM. So the contact warheads are range-1 single shot.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ah, that makes sense then. I am not trying to make missles suceptable to ECM, but I am going to be giving them ECM components themselves to protect them from PDC some, so contact warheads should work fine for me.

I suppose I could use fighters for the missiles instead of drones,<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hmmm, well that doesn't work for me cause then they can be recovered after combat, and I don't want that. I guess I will have to trust that with the contact warheads they don't get too much in each others way on the way to ramming their targets. Too bad drones can't stack though.

Geoschmo

[Mind Elemental]

Uhm. Maybe have drones take up an obscene amount of space, and have the amount of storage offered by missile storage greatly increased? (Of course, that means you could then use missile storage to haul troops. O_o; No such thing as a free lunch...)

How will missile pods be modelled?

[Mind Elemental]

How are missile pods going to be implemented?

[Phoenix-D]

As of now I don't know.

Phoenix-D

[AJC]

Drone launcher with its own cargo space? Make it take up less space than it actually holds - call it a missile pod?

[Phoenix-D]

Eh, maybe. The problem is that doesn't really accuratly represent the pods. Right now the missile tubes hold 1 shot each. If I make a "missile pod" that is, say, the size of 4 missiles but holds and shoots 5, people will use *just* the pods, and fire multiple missiles out of the "pod".

Phoenix-D

[AJC]

unfortunately its probably impossible to simulate the books perfectly.

If limiting number of components on a ship is working correctly that would help , then you could restrict its use as far as how many can be on a ship and make them cheaper than normal launchers. Several different components could be created limiting the size of ship that they can be on. Each pod component holding a few more missiles(drones) to simulate numerous pods on bigger ships.

how about component destroyed on use? maybe this would encourage using more than just the pods, set the value for the number of missile(drones) being launched at maximum number when fired. I.e. 5. Repairing the Pod could be considered part of rearming them. they should take up little space and be cheap however.

Another thought is find a way using the new mounts capabilities coming in patch 2 and do a combination of abilities and mounts.

[ August 14, 2002, 00:13: Message edited by: AJC ]

[AJC]

Thinking about the Missile Pod - How about creating a component that is really quite large cumbersome and somewhat pricey if its just placed on a ship.... Until you put it on a mount.

make a mount specifically for the missile pod that reduces its size/cost - the explanation that its a mounted pod. limit the size of a pod component by hull size.

The size of the Pod component could be a representation of multiple pods. Limit the pod to one per hull and increase fire power of the pod by 25% per ship hull size or something along those lines.

The mount(s) can be easily designed with the upcoming features for mounts in the next release!

[Phoenix-D]

"increase fire power of the pod by 25% per ship hull size or something along those lines."

Cannot be done; you can't change the number of drones launched with a mount, and you especially can't change the damage done by a drone by modding it's launcher.

[oleg]

Little off topic: Do you guys know that "On Basilisk Station" and "The Honor of the Queen" are available free for download from http://www.baen.com/library/ ?

The Free Library is hosted by the official Baen Books publishing company. It is not pirate.

[Mind Elemental]

Yep. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Could you model SD(P)s by creating a component called, oh, "Hollow Core Pod Launcher" that's limited to 1 per ship, takes up a huge amount of room, but can also launch /and/ store a very large number of drones?

[Phoenix-D]

"Could you model SD(P)s by creating a component called, oh, "Hollow Core Pod Launcher" that's limited to 1 per ship, takes up a huge amount of room, but can also launch /and/ store a very large number of drones?"

Still doesn't seem to model them well, but it's the best shot yet.

(yes, I'm still working on this. Slowly. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )

Phoenix-D

[Mind Elemental]

Woohoo!

*bumps while he's at it*

[Phoenix-D]

Funny. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

At the moment I'm re-working for the patch. Testing out different styles- haven't decided if the bigger energy weapons should just be mounts, or actual components. Leaning toward components, because then I can do other things with the mounts.

Phoenix-D

[Phoenix-D]

*beats head against desk*

SE4 is not liking me. The update in short is that I have very little done. I am running into MAJOR problems. Right now I'm just trying to get energy-only SDs up and running.

Se4 is not liking this at all. I have two SDs, identical designs, in the sim. They have:
1 bridge
5 CQ/LS
supply storage
4 1000kt Grasers doing 1000 damage, Quad to shields.
a number of Sidewall generators that give 1200 shield points and have 1200 Crystalline ability.

what happens most often is the SDs fire, and can't penetrate the shields becase I've made them too powerful. OK, fine.. but occasionally they will breach the shields, damage the components within..and stop firing. Neither ship will fire a shot for the rest of the battle, despite fully recharged weapons and good to-hit chances. this is on tactical, as well.

[oleg]

If anybody will ever make HH ship set, here is
my model (128X128 BMP) of HMS Fearless:

1033490793.bmp (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1033490793.bmp)

[Deathstalker]

Heads up for lovers of the book series. The next novel (War of Honor) is in stores in hardcover. And for those who don't have the previous books it comes with a cd will ALL of the previous books on it!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Sinapus]

Originally posted by oleg:
Little off topic: Do you guys know that "On Basilisk Station" and "The Honor of the Queen" are available free for download from http://www.baen.com/library/ ?

The Free Library is hosted by the official Baen Books publishing company. It is not pirate.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No, it's more like drug pushing. "The first ones are free..." http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Dead Meat]

War of Honor was good. I like it.

[Urendi Maleldil]

I'm not familiar with the Honor Harrington series. Tell me about the story and technology.

[oleg]

Well, I obviously like it a lot. You can read first two books ,On Basilisk Station and Honor Of The Queen, free on-line :
http://www.baen.com/library/

[oleg]

For the lack of responces by others I post a short review of the first H.H. novel that I found onthe net. I hope it will heat up your interest http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif :

"So far there are eight books in this series. Each one is perfect and while they could be read independent of each other I would recommend tackling them in sequence if you want to maximize your enjoyment. The eight titles are, "On Basilisk Station", "The Honor of the Queen", "The Short Victorious War", "Field of Dishonor", "Flag in Exile", "Honor Among Enemies", "In Enemy Hands" and "Ashes of Victory".
The feel of the books is quite similar to David Feintuch's Nicholas Seafort series. It is set in the far distant future amongst a competing variety of human empires. Each empire controls an area of space including its stars and planets. Honor Harrington is a member of the Royal Manticoran Navy, charged with the protection of the realm in service to the queen. In the first book Honor is a commander in charge of a smallish space craft. She has been sent to purgatory, (Basilisk Station), as an indirect result of physically rejecting the advances of one of the aristocracy while in the academy, years before.
To make matters worse, her ship is carrying an experimental weapon, to the exclusion of most others, which has just amply shown its shortcomings during Navy maneuvers. Her crew is embarrassed by their recent performance in the exercise and many of them blame Honor for this as well as the posting to Basilisk. Furthermore, when her ship arrives at Basilisk her old enemy is the Captain in charge and promptly leaves the system for questionable repairs, dumping the responsibility of the whole area in Honor's lap with only one small ship to carry it out.
The rest of the story takes us through Honor's efforts to turn things around in the face of an ever worsening situation. We learn to love her as she holds true to the best principles that most people can only talk about. The other characters are well defined and the details of the politics and human dynamics are smooth. A further pleasure is the well thought out military scenarios. The weaponry and craft performance has been designed by Weber to provide a diverse yet plausible array of military confrontations.
Luckily for us, the readers, this future has made available a medical treatment that extends the lifetime of its citizens many fold. For this reason I look forward to many more novels from David Weber, leading me further into the life of Honor Harrington."

[Puke]

BUMP. I say, BUMP!

I have not been on this forum in ages, im down to one pbw game that I am actually playing in, and I have no free time. I have a GritTech mod 2/3s of the way to an alpha release, and will probably be begging for help once it is stable enough to play.

but unlike the Stones, time is not on my side. I dont have time to play my game, work on my mod, or read this forum.

But my mind keeps wandering back to the HH mod, and hoping that in another month I will again be able to play lots and lots of SE4. Where is the HH mod? any luck? still progressing? Is there any community support if P-D has gotten weary of beating his head against it? This mod sounds awesome! I want to see it, and play it!

[Phoenix-D]

I'm having difficulties, and decided not to post any more until I have a playable Version. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I'm also waiting on the next patch, because of the bug with Quad to Shields and Quarter to Shields weapons. The energy weapons are all Quad to Shields, and the Energy TORPS are quarter, to simulate the energy torps not having much effect on ships with sidewalls. However, a bug in SE4 means that these weapons do 4 times and 1/4 times their listed damage *all the time*, instead of just to shields. That and the ships keep behaving quite oddly in my tests, and I haven't resolved how I'm modeling the laser-head missiles.

Phoenix-D

[PvK]

The shield damage factors are supposed to be fixed in the next patch, thankfully.

[Phoenix-D]

Which is why I said I was waiting for the next patch http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

The truth of the matter is I got frustrated, and haven't more than fiddled with it since then. Semester break is coming up though, so I'll try to get something done.

Phoenix-D

[Phoenix-D]

Put a fork in it, it's done.

I have now exausted my abilities to work with SE4 on this. If anyone else wants to try, you're welcome.

The problem is the disparity in ship sizes. Light Cruisers are 200kt, SDs are 8000kt. This means I have to use mounts, in order to keep the space used for drives and brige, LS, etc fair.

SE4's mount system rounds down. This means with the size reductions I have to use, many components end up being zero KT in size. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Another problem is the SDs behave oddly. I filled them with just my drive system and the normal components, and they had the problems I described earlier in the thread- fire one salvo then refuse to do much of anything. Knocking the size down to BBs, and everything works fine..so I have to conclude these 8000kt behemoths are just too much for SE4 to handle. 17 shield generators, 40 Armor components, 30 APB XIIIs, 5000 shield regeneration from damage, etc etc etc..too much stuff for the engine to track.

Phoenix-D

[Puke]

Phoenix-D, the grit tech mod should be out in beta next week. you should take a look. I shamelessly cribbed laser missiles from HH fiction, but would be happy to replace them with something else, if it treads on this mod.

anyway, the point of my post is this: i have ships from 200-10000KT, and handle both the engines and the armor with mounts. I dont have any 0KT components due to size reduction, and the scale seems to work out OK. I did have to implement dry-dock shipyards to get things built, but I wanted it that way anyhoo. I dont know if I will end up having the problems with things not firing in strageic combat, as you describe. If so, I will work arround it with weapon mounts for larger ships.

I am guessing that you might be running into problems with silly numbers of missiles and drones being launched into combat, and the game not wanting to fire any more. I would love to take a look at what you have got so far, if you upload the mod somewhere.

[Phoenix-D]

"Phoenix-D, the grit tech mod should be out in beta next week. you should take a look. I shamelessly cribbed laser missiles from HH fiction, but would be happy to replace them with something else, if it treads on this mod."

Which is gleefully treading on someone else's work? No way, no problem.

"anyway, the point of my post is this: i have ships from 200-10000KT, and handle both the engines and the armor with mounts. I dont have any 0KT components due to size reduction, and the scale seems to work out OK."

Anything that would end up being less than 1 kt in size get's round down. My 50kt Life support modules end up as 0kt on DDs, because 1% of 50 is .5, rounds to 0. On light cruisers, which take a 2% scale mount, they are 1kt in size. Any component of 20kt original size or less gets chopped to zero though.

"I am guessing that you might be running into problems with silly numbers of missiles and drones being launched into combat, and the game not wanting to fire any more. I would love to take a look at what you have got so far, if you upload the mod somewhere."

This was with pure beam weaponry, only. There's not a lot -too- the mod; just made the bridge, LS, and CQ bigger, added the two drives I mentioned, and changed the ship sizes.

Phoenix-D

[Rambie]

Originally posted by Phoenix-D:

Anything that would end up being less than 1 kt in size get's round down. My 50kt Life support modules end up as 0kt on DDs, because 1% of 50 is .5, rounds to 0. On light cruisers, which take a 2% scale mount, they are 1kt in size. Any component of 20kt original size or less gets chopped to zero though.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Question: Why do you want the Crew Quarters and Life Support components to have mounts? I'd think the SE4 standard "x-amount required for this Y sized ship" would suffice.

It sounds like you're taking the components and scalling them down. The mount system in SE4, actually came about during the first Beta period, was designed to take components from the standard size and move up in range/power, not down. We weren't thinking of using mounts to "minatureize" components.

It seems to me a HH MOD could use the "Neutonian" system from the B5 MOD for the engines, a modified mount system for weapons and maybe side-wall generators. The only thing that'd be hard to do is the "fog of war" since SE4 doesn't have any.

I've only just began to read the HH books, actually reading "A Short Victorious War" right now. So I appologize now if these questions are obvious or dumb.

[Phoenix-D]

"Question: Why do you want the Crew Quarters and Life Support components to have mounts? I'd think the SE4 standard "x-amount required for this Y sized ship" would suffice."

Because the smallest ship is 100kt and the biggest ship is 8000kt. To keep the amount of LS and CQ fair would involve a LOT of clicking.

"It sounds like you're taking the components and scalling them down. The mount system in SE4, actually came about during the first Beta period, was designed to take components from the standard size and move up in range/power, not down. We weren't thinking of using mounts to "minatureize" components."

Which is where this problem comes from. However, using the mounts to scale things up doesn't work. Why would the player even bother? I suppose I could make them ridiclously expensive and use the mount to scale down, then hope I didn't run into the same problem..

"It seems to me a HH MOD could use the "Neutonian" system from the B5 MOD for the engines, a modified mount system for weapons and maybe side-wall generators. The only thing that'd be hard to do is the "fog of war" since SE4 doesn't have any."

See problem about ship sizes. This also ends up running into the 255 MP limit, which drasticlly cuts down on the amount of speed captial ships can have. And I still don't know what the problem with the SDs is.

Phoenix-D

[Rambie]

Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
Because the smallest ship is 100kt and the biggest ship is 8000kt. To keep the amount of LS and CQ fair would involve a LOT of clicking.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Too bad fighters can't warp... You could make the small ships "fighters" and start the "Ships of the wall" at Cruisers or Heavy Cruisers.

Since fighters and ships have different techs that would have helped on that situation too.

[Phoenix-D]

I need the fighters for LACs though, so even that wouldn't have helped much.

Phoenix-D

[killer]

Originally posted by oleg:

"So far there are eight books in this series. Each one is perfect and while they could be read independent of each other I would recommend tackling them in sequence if you want to maximize your enjoyment. The eight titles are, "On Basilisk Station", "The Honor of the Queen", "The Short Victorious War", "Field of Dishonor", "Flag in Exile", "Honor Among Enemies", "In Enemy Hands" and "Ashes of Victory"
"<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">There is a new one, "War of Honor"
Where can I get a copy of the Honor H. Mod?

killer out

[killer]

Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
"Question: Why do you want the Crew Quarters and Life Support components to have mounts? I'd think the SE4 standard "x-amount required for this Y sized ship" would suffice."

Because the smallest ship is 100kt and the biggest ship is 8000kt. To keep the amount of LS and CQ fair would involve a LOT of clicking.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Make there be a "Large Armor" thet = 10 normal armor
same with shiedls crew corters etc.

killer out

[Krsqk]

The AI will try to use the most recent=lowest component in the list, even if it means squeezing a 500kt life support component into a 150kt escort. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Rambie]

[QB"Question: Why do you want the Crew Quarters and Life Support components to have mounts? I'd think the SE4 standard "x-amount required for this Y sized ship" would suffice."

Because the smallest ship is 100kt and the biggest ship is 8000kt. To keep the amount of LS and CQ fair would involve a LOT of clicking.
[/qb]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, if that's the only way, I'd live with clicking. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Phoenix-D]

"Well, if that's the only way, I'd live with clicking"

When I say a lot of clicking I'm not kidding. Currently it would take 250 LS components to balance out a SD using Destroyer-sized LS.

Phoenix-D

[Rambie]

Originally posted by killer:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by oleg:

"So far there are eight books in this series. Each one is perfect and while they could be read independent of each other I would recommend tackling them in sequence if you want to maximize your enjoyment. The eight titles are, "On Basilisk Station", "The Honor of the Queen", "The Short Victorious War", "Field of Dishonor", "Flag in Exile", "Honor Among Enemies", "In Enemy Hands" and "Ashes of Victory"
"<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">There is a new one, "War of Honor"
Where can I get a copy of the Honor H. Mod?

killer out</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hmm, actually there are 10 books with 3 other books set in the HH universe: "More Than Honor" "Worlds of Honor" and "Changer of Worlds"

I've read both "More Than Honor" and "Worlds of Honor" as well as starting the series. I'm about done with "The Short Victorious War" and look forward to the rest of the series.

I bought "War of Honor" from the local B&N... though I found it cheaper on Amazon. As a bonus, the book comes with a CD-ROM containing all HH books in electronic format, and also cover art, and other graphics. The books are in multiple formats: HTML, MS Reader, Rich Text, and two other eBook reader formats.

It was a good deal for me since I haven't been able to find all the books.

[Puke]

Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
"Well, if that's the only way, I'd live with clicking"

When I say a lot of clicking I'm not kidding. Currently it would take 250 LS components to balance out a SD using Destroyer-sized LS.

Phoenix-D<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">for grit, i am using standard size control components, and requiring 1 per 500KT or fraction thereof. it balances fairly well, i think DNs take 14 and baseships take 30 each of crew/life support.

[Rambie]

Originally posted by Puke:
for grit, i am using standard size control components, and requiring 1 per 500KT or fraction thereof. it balances fairly well, i think DNs take 14 and baseships take 30 each of crew/life support.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Perhaps not a perfect solution for a HH mod... but resonable

[Phoenix-D]

for grit, i am using standard size control components, and requiring 1 per 500KT or fraction thereof. it balances fairly well, i think DNs take 14 and baseships take 30 each of crew/life support."

The only problem with this is the really large size jump. It goes:

400
800
4000
6000
8000

Phoenix-D

[Puke]

it looks like you could either scale them to require one per 400, or one per 1000. you would need 20 of each for your 8000kt hull if you required 1/400, and sized the components appropriatly. thats not too much clicking, in my book. (especially since my starbases take 30 each, in GritTech..)

anyway, im working hard on getting Version 0.11 of GritTech out, which should fix alot of problems in the 0.1 pre-release (which you can download from the Grit-Tech thread, and take a look at, if you like).

[Rambie]

Question: do you guy have the Manticore or PRH graphics?

[Phoenix-D]

In my case the answer to both would be "no".

Phoenix-D

[Rambie]

Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
In my case the answer to both would be "no".

Phoenix-D<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Other than the cover art from the books, is there any reference material?

[Phoenix-D]

There is some on the inside of the Ashes of Victory Hardcover; perhaps on the inside of the other hardcover books as well. Other than that, none that I know of.

The covers and illustrations are often considered bad representation..the covers at least rarely match the book descriptions.

Phoenix-D

[Sessile]

What a surprise.. I was looking around at the SE4 mod scene to kill a few hours, and I find a whole bunch of people talking about a HH mod for the game. I've actually been working on a barebones realtime game based in the HH universe, to see where it goes. Anybody who's interested in getting involved with such a thing can email me at Sessile1@hotmail.com. My credentials are basically that I've been a game programmer on 2 shipped games, and am working on a team making a third. I'm also a huge Weber/4X game fan. I've about half completed a game design, and will need people who can do decent art and sound assets, as well as some design help (building missions, ships, components, etc.) I'm going to focus on building the engine and toolkit, which is mostly specced out at this point. Anyhow, if this is even remotely interesting to any of you, email!

[oleg]

I think I'll make Honor Harrington shipset. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Here are few images I mde so far.
1046372788.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1046372788.zip)

[solops]

Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
There is some on the inside of the Ashes of Victory Hardcover; perhaps on the inside of the other hardcover books as well. Other than that, none that I know of.

The covers and illustrations are often considered bad representation..the covers at least rarely match the book descriptions.

Phoenix-D<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Right on both counts. There is a complete, scaled chart of both ships (from LAC to SD) and missiles in one of the books. Dimensions and masses are listed. There is also a complete discussion of the technology and how it works. Can't remember which book, though....

[oleg]

I finished all warships and fighters. Hope to finish the rest soon. Here is what I have made so far. Any comments ?
1047691632.ZIP (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1047691632.ZIP)

[Phoenix-D]

Looks good. Not too fond of the pop portrait, but then I'm not too fond of any of the cover art. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

The fighers should techniclly have the same general shape as the ships, but then they'd look a little too similar I think..

Phoenix-D

[oleg]

Thanks! I spend a lot of time on internet looking for a good portrait. I have only paperback books but best covers appear to be on hardcover. If anybody could scan covers... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Yes, fighters should also have hammerhead body but I just want more variety in pictures http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[oleg]

I think this one is much better http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif "
1047695726.bmp (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1047695726.bmp)

[Phoenix-D]

Much. Its not only facing the viewer there's no yellow circle. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Looks like On Basilik Station..

Phoenix-D

[oleg]

Yes, it is from Basilisk http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I finally found a way to get big nice pictures of book covers - go to Amazon, find an item, then click on "more details", It will usually display the big cover picture http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Dawn Falcon]

As a FYI, the Baen CD on the copy of War of Honor is freely (legally..gotta love Baen) copyable (only read the Last few pages of the thread, sorry if it's been mentioned), and has all the HH books on it.

If anyone wants it, I have it up for DL. E-mail me for the web address.

[oleg]

Is it really ? I thought it is for personal use only and can not be destributed freely !? But I did't read any legal stuff actually http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Just assumed it. Way to go, Baen !

[Dawn Falcon]

Nope, you can freely distribute it as long as you don't charge http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

The CD on _Hells Faire_ will be the same, and it's got a LOTA D20 RPG on it. The fact I'm plugging it has NOTHING to do with the fact I'm lead QA on the RPG project. Honest.

[Sukerkin]

Just an enquiry (i.e. not to be taken as anything negative) but is this mod nearing completion or has 'development' stalled (I know there were some real problems with being able to reasonably simulate some of the weapons and technology)?

I only ask as I'd love to be able to play it and have been nipping in every now and again to see how things were going http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif .

[oleg]

No http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif I don't think it'l be ever finished...
too ambitious i guess.

As a compensation, of sort, I'm trying to mod a very
heavy drone/missile manticore Ai for proportions mod. Quite difficult should I say.

[ May 12, 2003, 01:54: Message edited by: oleg ]

[Phoenix-D]

Devlopment has been canceled, at least my Version. Too many problems with SE4 I can't find ways around; principally with the drones.