Is password guessing cheating? [Archive]

Nodachi

June 29th, 2002, 04:40 AM

Damn right its cheating! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif A good player shouldn't even be trying to guess someone else's password let alone hack it! If this were to happen in a game I was running that player would find themselves kicked quick.

Whatever happened to playing for the fun of it? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

Nodachi

disabled

June 29th, 2002, 06:10 AM

It's cheating in every way.

Now, hacking the exe is really cheating and a sign that you suck as a player (you is figurative for the cheater, not you you). Guessing the password is both cheating, stupid, and time consuming.

On a related note, if you have a guessable password or you are so secure in your position you drop hint as to your password, then you might have earned that hacking as a lesson to be learned.

Either way, cheating is intolerable in all forms!

Grandpa Kim

June 29th, 2002, 06:31 AM

This is soooo cheating that I can't believe the poll results I've seen! Those of you who have voted "not cheating" please post your names so I can add them to my black list! In a way Slaughtermeyer, I can't believe you even had to ask, on the other hand I'm glad you did. It exposes some really sleazy players that I certainly don't want to associate with. So, those of you who think its okay, please reveal yourselves so the rest of us can avoid you on PBW.

Kim

PS
Would it be cheating if by some super glitch you opened someone elses turn AND LOOKED IT OVER when you innocently thought you were opening your own? Of course it would be cheating!
Would it be cheating if, in a poker game, you were able to see someone elses hand? Of course it would be cheating!
Sheesh! This is all so obvious, I am totally boggled by the poll results. Has the world really come to this low point?

Captain Kwok

June 29th, 2002, 06:46 AM

Any attempts to gather info outside of the confines of the game is cheating.

I just don't understand why people cheat...I mean it's only a game, it's not life or death. Geez.

Suicide Junkie

June 29th, 2002, 06:49 AM

The passwords are meant to keep others out, because you're not supposed to be looking at other people's empires! Take a hint, and don't cheat.

If you want to see what somebody is up to, use an intel op!

Tenryu

June 29th, 2002, 07:21 AM

It is incrediable that someone would even try that excuse. I'd shut that turkey right down if I was running a game. He is, obviously, dishonest, and therefore, also a liar.

Zarix

June 29th, 2002, 12:31 PM

Looking into someone elses empire is cheating when playing a game of SEIV. It doesn't matter how you do it. Even in a game where there is no passwords it is still cheating.

A little OT but wouldn't it be interesting to play a game without passwords? That way people who are interested in the game but aren't playing could learn new strategies and just watch the game as it develops. Also after a players empire is dead they could see what went wrong.

The best solution would be to use passwords and then publish them on a web page. That way the players wouldn't accidentally open a wrong empire. Of course it might not be easy to find players that are honest and willing to reveal their strategies.

Slaughtermeyer

June 29th, 2002, 12:53 PM

disabled

June 29th, 2002, 02:50 PM

It would just be easier to create an intel that would allow you to see, monitor, and view everything the enemy does from your own turn.

Same for sabotage.

As for passwords, it's only practical use would be to game admins to check for cheating and to change players should the need arise (or to become a player themselves....)

Suicide Junkie

June 29th, 2002, 03:04 PM

Historically I can think of at least one instance where one side did the equivalent of guessing the other side's password: the use of ULTRA and MAGIC by the Allies in World War II to break the enemy codes. Perhaps an interesting addition to SEIV or SEV would be to include a very costly intelligence mission that if successful would reveal the target's password, either permanently or for a randomly determined number of turns. Any sort of password operation is totally unbalanced. Intel ops exist to change orders, view/intercept comms, on a one ship/message/something basis. Seeing the whole empire at once would cost you about 100 million intel points.

If anyone managed to pull that op off before the game was won, you'd know they were a cheater anyways.

[ June 29, 2002, 14:06: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

Baron Munchausen

June 29th, 2002, 03:36 PM

Use of the other player's password is completely outside the game parameters. It amounts to giving someone else complete control of the empire in question without the knowledge of the proper owner. While I agree that intelligence is a bit simplistic in informing the victim of every successful operation by enemies, I don't think that giving out game-defining control is the answer. There should be some way for the game to determine when an operation has been so successfully executed that the victim doesn't even know it has occured. Especially espionage operations where no obvious 'damage' was done.

June 29th, 2002, 04:52 PM

Originally posted by Slaughtermeyer:
Historically I can think of at least one instance where one side did the equivalent of guessing the other side's password: the use of ULTRA and MAGIC by the Allies in World War II to break the enemy codes.That was war, not game. Besides, they didn't use any "god mode" that was not part of THIS world and they certainly couldn't try giving orders to the 21st Panzers, "run the turn" in their command post and get people killed, reload their "save game" and try again. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif Your opponents' passwords are definitely out of bounds and any knowledge of it before the game ends is unfair.

[ June 29, 2002, 15:58: Message edited by: CW ]

Slaughtermeyer

June 29th, 2002, 06:41 PM

Originally posted by CW:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Slaughtermeyer:
Historically I can think of at least one instance where one side did the equivalent of guessing the other side's password: the use of ULTRA and MAGIC by the Allies in World War II to break the enemy codes.That was war, not game. Besides, they didn't use any "god mode" that was not part of THIS world and they certainly couldn't try giving orders to the 21st Panzers, "run the turn" in their command post and get people killed, reload their "save game" and try again. <hr /></blockquote>Any attempt by a password guesser to give orders and run another race's turn would instantly give him away and I would doubt that you'd ever see anything like that on PBW. The Allies were very cautious in their use of information gained through codebreaking so that the other side would not suspect that their code was broken, a good example was taking no special measures when it became known that Coventry would be bombed.

[ June 29, 2002, 17:45: Message edited by: Slaughtermeyer ]

June 29th, 2002, 07:21 PM

Any attempt by a password guesser to give orders and run another race's turn would instantly give him away and I would doubt that you'd ever see anything like that on PBW.I didn't mean that. I mean just being about to look at everything that an opponent sees through his own eyes is an unfair advantage, and logically unexplainable no matter how you look at it. Intel is okay, BUT nothing to do with the game's mechanics should be involved in the game itself.

DavidG

June 29th, 2002, 09:00 PM

Comparing the Allies actions in WWII to pasword guessing in SE4 is soooo not the same thing I can't believe it was even mentioned!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif There is a difference between a game and real life you know.

TerranC

June 29th, 2002, 09:07 PM

Cracking the code only allowed the knowledge of Enemy actions, orders, and concentrations.

That kind of intel orders are already in the game.

Password guessing would be considered to be something like getting a powerful mind controlling device, get into Hitler's head and messing everything up, destroying the Luftwafer (?), and personally executing General Rommel.

There is nothing wrong with Guessing the password, in my view, but if you take it too far as to hack the game to find it out, that is cheating beyond comprehension.

It's a game, and in a game, you get killed, and you kill also, and SE4 is complex, but easy enough to accomplish those goals without any cheating.

DavidG

June 29th, 2002, 09:12 PM

Originally posted by TerranC:
Password guessing would be considered to be something like getting a powerful mind controlling device, get into Hitler's head and messing everything up, destroying the Luftwafer (?), and personally executing General Rommel.
Actually its nothing like that. You just can't compare this to anything in real life. Anything you do outside the bounds of the game cannot be compared to real life.

DavidG

June 29th, 2002, 09:14 PM

Originally posted by TerranC:

There is nothing wrong with Guessing the password, in my view, but if you take it too far as to hack the game to find it out, that is cheating beyond comprehension.
Geussing the password is also cheating beyond comprehension.

Ragnarok

June 29th, 2002, 09:24 PM

Originally posted by DavidG:
Geussing the password is also cheating beyond comprehension.Indeed... guessing a password is cheating no matter what anyone says. What business do they got to GUESS others passwords anyways? Other then idea of CHEATING by looking at your (your meaning whoever has their passwords guessed) empire, where it's located, what plans you have stored up and so forth. So guessing someones password IS cheating.

[ June 29, 2002, 20:25: Message edited by: Ragnarok ]

Lupusman

June 29th, 2002, 09:51 PM

If I may just offer some advice. Those playing on PBW should not use the same passwords for their empires if they are playing different games.

If you take over an empire of someone who dropped out, thereby learning that persons password. It's possible that you could encounter that same person again in another game. I don't think I need to go into further details.

Grandpa Kim

June 29th, 2002, 09:53 PM

By "guessing" I mean actively selecting another player's empire and typing in a password... and I think that's what we are all talking about. To sit back in your easy chair and "guess" passwords but do nothing with them is perfectly okay, and about as productive as selecting lottery numbers in your head.

Terran C, I think you mean the second type, but if you DO mean "active guessing", I'll be glad to add you to my blacklist.

TerranC

June 29th, 2002, 11:07 PM

Whoa.

I didn't mean active guessing, as in keep typing random words into other player's empire and trying to crack it.

I meant as in just guessing. In your head. Nothing wrong with guessing in your head, but if you take that one step further, then it is cheating.

Also, DavidG, I didn't try to actually compare what hacking would be like to real world, but only compared examples of what the cheaters would do if they did hack it.

Sorry if some of this sounds back-flaming, as I'm only speaking what I think of this whole unpleasant matter.

Edit: Just so that wasn't clear...

Hitler = Empire Emperor
Luftwafer = Empire Fleet
Rommel = Empire Minister

[ June 29, 2002, 22:14: Message edited by: TerranC ]

Gandalph

June 30th, 2002, 12:34 AM

I believe that anyone who would consciously choose an empire other then their own for the purpose of anything, not just limited to password guessing, is low, and attempting to then guess the password is most definitely cheating.

Grandpa Kim

June 30th, 2002, 01:37 AM

No flames felt here, Terran C. I thought armchair guessing was what you meant and I'm glad you clarified it. Thanks. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Atrocities

June 30th, 2002, 03:40 AM

Yes, yes it is. Firmly, YES. Hell yes. It is cheating. Fun, but cheating non the less.

StarJack

June 30th, 2002, 04:20 AM

Of course it's cheating! I certainly wouldn't want to waste my time in any game with some chump that felt they had to cheat to compete...

disabled

June 30th, 2002, 03:50 PM

It's still cheating to guess a password, even for the hell of it.

Things that expose cheaters that guess passwords

- Suddenly all thier ships move to another area with no reason
- If they are egotistical, they drop hints to thier own superiority (thus proving hwo dumb they are).
- They know stuff that can be gathered via cloaked ships -- but they don't have cloaking researched.....
- Suddenly they know where all your best shipyards are and destroy them.

Those are just some of the cheaters' ways.

DavidG

June 30th, 2002, 09:43 PM

Originally posted by Hadrian Tyrael S. Aventine:
Things that expose cheaters that guess passwords

- Suddenly all thier ships move to another area with no reason
- If they are egotistical, they drop hints to thier own superiority (thus proving hwo dumb they are).
- They know stuff that can be gathered via cloaked ships -- but they don't have cloaking researched.....
- Suddenly they know where all your best shipyards are and destroy them.
Here One I experienced from a later proven cheater. Their fleets attack all your planets except the one with the massive defenses which they mysteriously avoid.

geoschmo

June 30th, 2002, 10:04 PM

Originally posted by Hadrian Tyrael S. Aventine:
It's still cheating to guess a password, even for the hell of it.

Things that expose cheaters that guess passwords

- Suddenly all thier ships move to another area with no reason
- If they are egotistical, they drop hints to thier own superiority (thus proving hwo dumb they are).
- They know stuff that can be gathered via cloaked ships -- but they don't have cloaking researched.....
- Suddenly they know where all your best shipyards are and destroy them.

Those are just some of the cheaters' ways.Guessing passwords is cheating, yes, yes, a thousand times yes.

No, it's not even remotly equatable to the intel ops of WWII, or even to any hypothetical Nazi brain reading technology that was or wasn't developed. But all that was during a war. And this is a game. All is fair in love and war. All is not fair in games.

Even real armies during war games don't allow unrestricted warfare. There are things you do during war that you don't do during games.

All that being said, if any of the things Hadrian and DavidG suggests happen to you during a game, PLEASE don't assume it's the work of cheaters. All of these things can just as easily be explained through perfectly legitimate game reasons.

Intelligence, Partnerships with empires that have cloaking technology, even just guessing or raw chance. During a war I will often avoid larger planets, or medium sized planets that are atmosphere correct. I will always check the population of a planet before attacking and make an educated guess about the defensive levels. You can also make supositions based on resource levels. Higher ones would tend to be colonized earlier, thus be older and have more defenses.

Cheating is cheating, but let's not let suspicion and paranoia ruin games either.

Geoschmo

[ June 30, 2002, 21:05: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

disabled

June 30th, 2002, 10:55 PM

That's very true.

The only true way to expose a cheater is to cheat yourself and that is something I doubt anyone wants to see.

I think cheating needs to be handled on a case-by-case system with everything properly investigated and explained.

DavidG

June 30th, 2002, 11:27 PM

Originally posted by geoschmo:
All that being said, if any of the things Hadrian and DavidG suggests happen to you during a game, PLEASE don't assume it's the work of cheaters.

GeoschmoDouble ditto to that. I hope I didn't imply you should assume someone is cheating whenever something happens you can't explain. There are so many ways to get ahead in this game that if you find someone way ahead of you chances are he/she just know something you don't, or got a lucky break etc etc etc

Hank

July 2nd, 2002, 12:47 AM

If this ever became a real problem, the game would have to be made more secure by making separate turn results for each player. A player's turn result would only contain data for his/her race. PBW would only allow downloading of a player's turn result thru their login.

Edit: Forgot to mention. Cheaters Suck Hind Tit!

[ July 01, 2002, 23:48: Message edited by: Hank ]

geoschmo

July 2nd, 2002, 04:10 AM

The next patch will have more sophisticated protection against hacking the program to allow access to other players empires. But it's still only as secure as your password. If you use one that is easily guessable, you are opening yourself up for potential abuse.

Geoschmo

Puke

July 2nd, 2002, 08:56 AM

when i play games with people i know in person, we usually dont use passwords. because we know each other. because that ****ty advice you got in gradeschool about 'only cheating yourself' is basically true. if you cheat at a game, you are taking the fun out of it.

its the same principle that lets me walk to the corner store for more beer and pretzels while playing a tabletop wargame, without having to wory about my adversary looking at my chits.

who would even want to play a game if you were going to cheat? you would know that youre not good enough to beat your opponent in open competition, and you would have to live with the fact that you're basically worthless as a tactician, as a gamer, and as a friend.

while i'll grant you that im not above bringing a gun to a knife fight, games are a different story. how do you expect to hone your strategic skills if you cant play fair? you might as well always make a point of gaming with people you know to be inferior to you so you can always have the satisfaction of winning.

dmm

July 2nd, 2002, 10:50 PM

Hmmm ... is it cheating to try to guess a password without actually hacking?
I don't think so, so I will now try to guess a password on a CIA computer. Dum de dum .... No, no, no, no, boy this is hard, no, no, ...
[ 1 hour later ]
... no, no, no, ...
[knock knock knock]
Hey look! There's a whole mess of police cars outside my house! Boy, some idiot is in a LOT of trouble!

DavidG

July 3rd, 2002, 01:29 AM

Originally posted by dmm:
Hmmm ... is it cheating to try to guess a password without actually hacking?
I don't think so, so I will now try to guess a password on a CIA computer. Dum de dum .... No, no, no, no, boy this is hard, no, no, ...
[ 1 hour later ]
... no, no, no, ...
[knock knock knock]
Hey look! There's a whole mess of police cars outside my house! Boy, some idiot is in a LOT of trouble!Hey waaait a minute!! How did you know the answer was no unless you tried it? Hope they lock you away!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif This demonstrates the utter futility of what has been termed here as 'non-active' or 'passive' guessing. It is so utterly pointless I seriously doubt anyone is doing.

[ July 03, 2002, 00:30: Message edited by: DavidG ]

Puke

July 3rd, 2002, 06:58 AM

alright, heres what pisses me off. i hit a ****ing fire extinguiser on my bike on i880. no, thats not what pisses me off, heres what pisses me off:

f---ing first ammendment f---ing a--ed f--ks. the f---ers that say f---ed up sh-t like "oh, its not cheating to do things that the game allows."

like if the game allows you to view your eneimes password, then its okay. bull-shorts. the program lets you cheat so its okay to cheat. RIGHT.

i know the Last poster was joking, so no offense to him, but GIVE ME A BREAK! i know there are people out there who are thinking like this, and it frickin' hacks me off.

I go out of my way not to believe in right and wrong, but if COMMON SENSE tells you that you are taking UNFAIR ADVANTAGE of a situation, you PROBABLY SHOULD NOT DO IT. i dont know how much more detail i can go into if the average person does not get it already. im about ready to give up my outrageously overpaid computer geek job to particpate in some ridiculously underpaid career like the police force. something with some fricking morale gratificaion for petes sakes.

gosh darn, some one give me another beer.

Askan Nightbringer

July 3rd, 2002, 11:51 AM

I'm with Puke.

The issue with this game (if it can be called an issue) is the huge investment in time it takes to play a game. I've played PBW games that have gone for 9+ months, and finished at a fairly amicable end.

I measure my time in how much money I would have got paid if I was actually working. That means if a cheater wrecks a long running game he owes me alot of cash. Being up here in Australia means its fairly unlikely I will ever get to collect my debt (until cheating in SE4 comes under the ICC) but I do travel alot and if I ever get to the cheater's town I will come for him/her/it with a cricket bat.

Now I'm not saying I'm a nice player, I'm the first to admit I'm a complete bastard. But I'de never go beyond the game to achieve a conquest.
I do, however, pay much attention to what goes on in this forum, the attitudes of the posters and the attitudes of various players I've met on the battlefield. Basically I have a "George W" style naughty list of people I'de never bother playing against.

I don't like to waste my time.

Askan

Oh...and the difference in the poll about password guessing and password hacking....thats just a difference in the talent/skills of the cheater. If its alright to 'guess' a password its alright to hack one. Wake up.

Gryphin

July 3rd, 2002, 02:05 PM

Zarix
I would be willing to try a small game where passwords were availble. I personaly play to have phun. If a player wants to guess my password all they have to do is ask me. I'll give it to them. Cheating in any form destroys the challenge.

Slaughtermeyer
While those are true historical events, it brings to mind,
"Henry Stimson's famous adage "gentlemen don't read other gentlemen's mail"
That is the "Real" world. There is no place for it in a game.

I am sure neither of you feel it any form of cheatting is acceptable.

dmm

July 3rd, 2002, 04:45 PM

It is a bit distressing that a few people don't see that guessing a password (and then using it) is cheating. One hopes these are not one's neighbors. HOWEVER, what is crystal clear to everyone now from the poll results is that the vast majority of players DO consider that to be cheating. So, from this time forward, anyone who does that is, without any doubt or argument, a cheater. Does anyone disagree with that?