Devnull Mod Gold: updates and discussion [Archive] - Page 2

Puke

February 4th, 2004, 01:24 AM

Hey Rollo, I was going to write you an email with some thoughts on space monsters, but I think posting here will be better - more people to discuss things with.

I would like to see some more challenging space monsters. You did a really good job on them, and they are pretty tough as it is, but they could be harder. Maybe create a second monster race with the improvements, and leave the current one as-is. that way, people can choose which to play with.

Here is what I am thinking:

1 - Move the sector cloak ability to the monster facilities. I am pretty sure that it will work on them (tested it a few Versions back) and this will make sure that all monster planets have the cloak, even without bases. this is important if you are going to:

2 - allow the monsters to colonize. not to hard, just give them a generic colony component that can hit any colony type. give the colony component cloaking ability (regular cloak, no supply use, not sector cloak.) so that the colony ship cant be shot down or captured. I think the AI can handle cloaks on colony ships, and will uncloak before attempting to colonize. if not, give it a high enough sector cloak to avoid being seen, but a high enough sensor to see through its cloak and colonize target planets. (i ran into trouble trying to colonize with a sector cloak, because i could not see the planet i was trying to colonize).

3 - put spaceyards on those space stations! increase the monster production capacity!

a long time ago there was a discusion about this next idea. I dont remember who first came up with it, but its still a darn good idea:

4 - stick planetary and system shield abilities on the monster facilities. this makes them indestructable. now create a sensor component that can see through monster cloaks, and put it on a ship design that is possible (but difficult) to capture. you can either make the player used the captured ship as a sensor, or allow them to analyze it for the technology.

you can capture, analyze, and use racial technologies if it is setup right. if a component requires technology A, and technology A requires technology B, where tech B is racial and tech A is not, then anyone can analyze the component - if i remember correctly.

Fyron

February 4th, 2004, 03:23 AM

1 - Move the sector cloak ability to the monster facilities. I am pretty sure that it will work on them (tested it a few Versions back) and this will make sure that all monster planets have the cloak, even without bases. It only works if you save the game, quit, and then reload. The next SE4 patch should make them work without the need to reload. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Puke

February 4th, 2004, 06:35 AM

ah.. for a new game, it shouldnt matter - right? and simultanious games are saved/quitted/reloaded every turn, so....

I dont mean the 'cloaking' ability that has some sort of issue with the cloaking icon appearing for planets, i mean the 'sector cloaking' storm ability, which is always-on.

Rollo

February 5th, 2004, 12:49 AM

Originally posted by Puke:
Hey Rollo, I was going to write you an email with some thoughts on space monsters, but I think posting here will be better - more people to discuss things with.

I would like to see some more challenging space monsters. You did a really good job on them, and they are pretty tough as it is, but they could be harder. Maybe create a second monster race with the improvements, and leave the current one as-is. that way, people can choose which to play with.

Here is what I am thinking:

1 - Move the sector cloak ability to the monster facilities. I am pretty sure that it will work on them (tested it a few Versions back) and this will make sure that all monster planets have the cloak, even without bases. this is important if you are going to:

2 - allow the monsters to colonize. not to hard, just give them a generic colony component that can hit any colony type. give the colony component cloaking ability (regular cloak, no supply use, not sector cloak.) so that the colony ship cant be shot down or captured. I think the AI can handle cloaks on colony ships, and will uncloak before attempting to colonize. if not, give it a high enough sector cloak to avoid being seen, but a high enough sensor to see through its cloak and colonize target planets. (i ran into trouble trying to colonize with a sector cloak, because i could not see the planet i was trying to colonize).

3 - put spaceyards on those space stations! increase the monster production capacity!

a long time ago there was a discusion about this next idea. I dont remember who first came up with it, but its still a darn good idea:

4 - stick planetary and system shield abilities on the monster facilities. this makes them indestructable. now create a sensor component that can see through monster cloaks, and put it on a ship design that is possible (but difficult) to capture. you can either make the player used the captured ship as a sensor, or allow them to analyze it for the technology.

you can capture, analyze, and use racial technologies if it is setup right. if a component requires technology A, and technology A requires technology B, where tech B is racial and tech A is not, then anyone can analyze the component - if i remember correctly. Hey Puke, I have considered all of these ideas in the past and tested some of them. Let me reply to each of them in some more detail:

1 - I tried cloaking facilities. Didn't work for me (*shrugs). That's why I did the workaround with the bases. I admit that I tested this with a rather old Version (I think before gold patch 1), could be it is working now.

2 - giving the monsters colonization is easy enough, but can be problematic. If the monsters get tech via ruins for example, it cannot only screw up their designs, but also it could mean that they are able to use tech they are not supposed to have. You really don't wanna have the monsters use offensive intel for example.

3 - yes, I have used that in the past. In fact the monster space yard is still in the components.txt file. I think the earliest Version of the monsters used them and proved too overwhelming. If you like that, it is easy to add back in.

4 - For several reasons I like the monster planets 'out of the game'. Obscene production of intel points for one reason. These things should never fall into the hands of a human player. I tested the capture of space monsters and tech analysis and it does work fine. However, I like the fact that monsters can't be captured, because they can be abused too much (for example as mobile quantum reactors for the players fleets).

bottom line: I like all these ideas, just not for the way the monsters currently work (well, except for the SY idea. That one is easy enough to do and has no adverse effects other than making the monsters a real b..ch to fight against).
However, all these ideas would work great for another monster race that acts more a swarm: colonization, huge numbers, tough ground troops, planet invasions, just heaps and heaps of critters that threaten to swallow up the whole quadrant. I did want to add a 2nd race like that, but have not found the time yet to do it. It is definately on the list of things I want to do at some point.
As for additional stuff to the current monsters I'd like even bigger and badder monsters, rather than an increase in numbers or colonization. There is a pretty big gap between the big monsters (dragons) and the huge worms that can be filled with some new and nasty designs.

spoon

February 9th, 2004, 07:56 PM

I'm confused whether these are changes in the most recent released Version (1.70???), or if these are changes that are going to be released soon.

I'm starting in a game today, using DevNull + PvK Balance, and want to make sure I got the right Version!

Thanks!

Originally posted by Rollo:
just to keep those who are interested up to date:

* updated standard formations form the stock game
* added more positions to the custom formations (Hard Flanks, Dark Wing, Cube, etc)
* changed values for Massive Planetary Shield Generator (ruins tech)
* reduced cost for Emotionless trait
* reduced cost for Advanced Power Conservation trait
* reduced cost for Mechanoids trait
* added new ruins tech (ancient atmospheric processors)
* added new ruins tech (gravity field inducers)

Fyron

February 9th, 2004, 08:36 PM

They are changes that will be in the next release Version. A teaser if you will.

Rollo

February 9th, 2004, 10:52 PM

Originally posted by spoon:
I'm confused whether these are changes in the most recent released Version (1.70???), or if these are changes that are going to be released soon.

I'm starting in a game today, using DevNull + PvK Balance, and want to make sure I got the right Version!

Thanks!The current Version 1.70 has not changed.

These changes are in the Version that is currently under development (1.71 or 1.80; not sure yet, if it is compatible with old saves). That Version won't be released any time soon. Not before the Last SE4 patch anyways.

Puke

February 10th, 2004, 03:10 AM

Originally posted by Rollo:
1 - I tried cloaking facilities. Didn't work for me (*shrugs). That's why I did the workaround with the bases. I admit that I tested this with a rather old Version (I think before gold patch 1), could be it is working now. I thought the guy that did the Space Monsters vs the Galactic Patrol mod had sucessfully dont cloaking facilities? I think he had a monster 'swarm' too, maybe his code can be re-used? if its still around.

Fyron

February 10th, 2004, 03:24 AM

Cloaking facilities work, except that you have to save, close and reload the game after one is built in order to enable the cloaking buttons. This is not an issue in PBEM games, but it is in SP. The next patch will fix this and allow them to work fine without needing to reload the game.

[ February 10, 2004, 01:25: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Rollo

February 11th, 2004, 10:35 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Cloaking facilities work, except that you have to save, close and reload the game after one is built in order to enable the cloaking buttons...yeah, but normal cloaking via the button is not good enough. The monster planets need a sector cloak.

Rollo

February 13th, 2004, 12:39 PM

I tried sector cloak on a facility. Doesn't seem to work.

Grandpa Kim

March 28th, 2004, 08:10 PM

Will you be incorporating the new smoothed pop. settings into Devnull's extended pop. settings?

Unknown_Enemy

March 29th, 2004, 12:31 PM

Rollo, you missed several turns in Devnull4bis, while the game is at a critical stage.

What's going on ?

spoon

May 4th, 2004, 05:45 PM

I'd like to see DevNull updated for the most recent SE4 Gold patch. But I seem to recall Rollo deciding to quit Space Empiring - is this true???

If so, is there anyone "officially" in charge of the mod?

If not, does anyone care if I take over and put out an update???

Fyron

May 4th, 2004, 06:33 PM

I do not believe anyone is officially in charge, and Rollo has stated on numerous occassions that the mod is open to public domain. However, I do recall Rollo mentioning that he had been working on it... perhaps try to get whatever he had updated from him first?

parabolize

May 20th, 2005, 01:47 AM

Would anyone mind if I updated Devnull? Here is what I have done so far. What do you think?

Version 1.71
19.05.2005:
* Changed - Added in Imperator Fyron's smoothed population modifiers.
* Fixed - The Create and Destroy Storm components are now destroyed on use.
* Fixed - Added more slots to all of the formations to keep ships together better in combat. New formations thanks to Imperator Fyron.
* Changed - Anti-Fighter Missile range/damage and chance to hit. Here (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=356437&page=0&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1#Post356440) is a poll.

Swarm

May 20th, 2005, 07:49 AM

Please do - It would be a real shame for this mod to stagnate.

Could you also correct the repair rates of temporal spaceyards? ( the figures are correct in the descriptions, but wrong in the Ability Val field)

If your updates are loaded onto PBW, will it be possible to update an existing game to use it?

Ragnarok-X

May 20th, 2005, 12:13 PM

It is possible, given the order of component within the modfiles do not change.

spoon

May 20th, 2005, 12:28 PM

parabolize said:
Would anyone mind if I updated Devnull?

When I asked Rollo about an update several months back, he said he was planning something. But I think he ran out of leisure time for SE4, so you should go ahead with your changes.

I'll let a few other DevNull players know about this thread, so you can get some more feedback.

Thanks for doing this!

Unco

May 20th, 2005, 02:22 PM

Hey Parabolize,

I'm glad Devnull isn't dying. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I kind of like your Anti-Fighter Missile changes. After playing a bunch of Devnull games, it always felt like fighters were powerful in the early game but lost value in the middle to late game. I like that you reduce the damage and range on the early components, but is there a reason why you increase damage and slightly reduce range on the later components?

Thanks again!

PS - A year or two ago, Spoon and I had some other change ideas for Devnull. I'll try and dig them up and post them here. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Ragnarok-X

May 20th, 2005, 05:24 PM

Agreed, anti-fighters weapons definitly needs to be nerved. Population modifers are a very good idea as well. Other than that i really like the Devnull Mod. Im playing a pretty great game on pbw right now, if i stumble upon anything i will let you know.

parabolize

May 21st, 2005, 02:18 AM

Swarm said:
Please do - It would be a real shame for this mod to stagnate.

Could you also correct the repair rates of temporal spaceyards? ( the figures are correct in the descriptions, but wrong in the Ability Val field)

Done, though I am a bit wary of what this might do to high tech games.

Unco said:
Hey Parabolize,

I'm glad Devnull isn't dying. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I kind of like your Anti-Fighter Missile changes. After playing a bunch of Devnull games, it always felt like fighters were powerful in the early game but lost value in the middle to late game. I like that you reduce the damage and range on the early components, but is there a reason why you increase damage and slightly reduce range on the later components?

Thanks again!

PS - A year or two ago, Spoon and I had some other change ideas for Devnull. I'll try and dig them up and post them here. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

The range on level 4 did make them powerful but half the time they would be shooting something off screen. So I lowered the range and made up for it in damage.

I am thinking about updating devnull's SystemTypes.txt, StellarAbilityTypes.txt and QuadrantTypes.txt. Rollo made parts of these text files stock other parts FQM 1.13. The FQM parts really need a upgrade to 1.22 but editing around Rollo's files is a pain. Considering FQM has stock-like maps in it (with some extra abilities) would anyone mind if I flat-out replaced the text files with FQM 1.22?

Grandpa Kim

May 21st, 2005, 12:01 PM

I think the changes still leave the anti-fighter missile much too powerful. The range is still far too great. To me, point defense implies shooting down threats right on top of you. An in-your-face, short range defense. The current AFM and the proposed still allow a fighter to be shot at twice before it even gets close enough to loose its own guns.

Spoo

May 21st, 2005, 12:35 PM

parabolize said:
I am thinking about updating devnull's SystemTypes.txt, StellarAbilityTypes.txt and QuadrantTypes.txt. Rollo made parts of these text files stock other parts FQM 1.13. The FQM parts really need a upgrade to 1.22 but editing around Rollo's files is a pain. Considering FQM has stock-like maps in it (with some extra abilities) would anyone mind if I flat-out replaced the text files with FQM 1.22?

Sounds good to me.

spoon

May 21st, 2005, 12:48 PM

For the planets, you'd have to make extra effort to make sure the Extra Huge planets and Stellar Moons remain in the game. I'm not sure if this would mean modifying the FQM files or not.

Ragnarok-X

May 21st, 2005, 01:13 PM

Yeah, spoon is right, i almost forgot. Hopefully Fyron can tell us, im out of modding since months.

Fyron

May 21st, 2005, 04:52 PM

As long as the FQM STD secttype.txt and planetsize.txt files, which are just the stock files, are not copied over, those should be fine. Artificial planets are constructed via items in components.txt and the extra huge planet is still a "huge" sized planet as far as SystemTypes.txt is concerned.

Fyron

May 21st, 2005, 05:39 PM

An addendum about the stellar moons:

I see that they are an ancient ruins tech. That ability needs to be added as a possibility to stellarabilitytypes.txt. But the actual tech, components, and planet entries should be fine.

parabolize

May 21st, 2005, 08:02 PM

Grandpa Kim said:
I think the changes still leave the anti-fighter missile much too powerful. The range is still far too great. To me, point defense implies shooting down threats right on top of you. An in-your-face, short range defense. The current AFM and the proposed still allow a fighter to be shot at twice before it even gets close enough to loose its own guns.

Anyone second that?

The Extra Huge planets work. Here is whats done so far:
Version 1.71
19.05.2005:
* Changed - Added in Imperator Fyron's smoothed population modifiers.
* Fixed - The Create and Destroy Storm components are now destroyed on use.
* Fixed - Added more slots to all of the formations to keep ships together better in combat. New formations thanks to Imperator Fyron.
* Changed - Anti-Fighter Missile range/damage and chance to hit.
* Fixed - Temporal Space Yard Facility Component Repair.
* Changed - SystemTypes.txt, StellarAbilityTypes.txt and QuadrantTypes.txt to FQM Standard 1.22
* added - ruins tech: artificial stellar moon to the new StellarAbilityTypes.txt

Unco

May 23rd, 2005, 05:21 PM

For the Anti-Missile change, I think the changes should be a little more even and reduce their power across all components. Below is a table of what you are proposing to change. I've also added a row that would be what I would propose.

AF I
Old: Range 6, Damage 50, Weapon Modifier 80
New: Range 4 (-33%), Damage 40 (-20%), Weapon Modifier 60 (-26%)
Unco: Range 4 (-33%), Damage 37 (-26%), Weapon Modifer 60 (-25%)

AF II
Old: Range 8, Damage 65, Weapon Modifier 90
New: Range 5 (-38%), Damage 50 (-23%), Weapon Modifier 70 (-22%)
Unco: Range 5 (-38%), Damage 49 (-25%), Weapon Modifer 67 (-26%)

AF III
Old: Range 10, Damage 80, Weapon Modifier 100
New: Range 7 (-30%), Damage 100 (+20%), Weapon Modifier 60 (-25%)
Unco: Range 6 (-40%), Damage 60 (-25%), Weapon Modifer 75 (-25%)

AF IV
Old: Range 12, Damage 100, Weapon Modifier 110
New: Range 10 (-17%), Damage 125 (+25%), Weapon Modifier 90 (-18%)
Unco: Range 8 (-33%), Damage 75 (-25%), Weapon Modifer 83 (-25%)

Grandpa Kim said:
* Changed - SystemTypes.txt, StellarAbilityTypes.txt and QuadrantTypes.txt to FQM Standard 1.22
* added - ruins tech: artificial stellar moon to the new StellarAbilityTypes.txt

In regards to the system, stellar and quadrant changes, what exactly does this do? I'm not familar with the FQM mod.

Thanks!

Unco

Fyron

May 23rd, 2005, 06:04 PM

If you use the "classic" quadrants, the only difference will be some extra ability possibilities on stellar objects and added abilities to the Gold system types that were nothing but pictures in stock SE4 (such as organic infestaions, which cause random movement and damage to your ships). If you use a FQM quadrant, there will be more moons and actual belts of asteroids (unless you select a "No AST" quadrant type). FQM adds many new options for quadrant types, including various relative levels of warp points and planet densities across systems. I'd recommend loading up FQM (standard) (http://fqm.spaceempires.net/) and checking out a few maps.

The version of FQM included in Devnull is/was in dire need of updating.

Gandalf Parker

May 23rd, 2005, 08:20 PM

Speaking of warp points, Im not sure which of the many mods I loaded that popped in tons of new warp points and descriptions for them but I wish they were abit more specific. There is lots of variety but effects (damaging, worthless shields, etc) dont seem to tie in to specific images. The planet images give some idea of what you will get when you examine it further but the warps seem random. Are we stuck with that?

Fyron

May 23rd, 2005, 09:05 PM

Answered in new thread. (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=355641)

parabolize

May 30th, 2005, 01:47 AM

There is a problem with the retrofit cost. Retrobuilding ships is CHEAPER than building them. I don't know about you but I hate spending 30 minutes building all the retrofit classes. Considering training takes 20 turns I don't think we need the lower cost to encourage retrofitting. Are the 1.71 rates below OK with you?

Retrofit Cost Percent For Comps
Devnull1.70:= 70
Devnull1.71:= 120
Stock:= 120
Retrofit Cost Percent For Comp Removal
Devnull1.70:= 10
Devnull1.71:= -30
Stock:= 30

spoon

May 30th, 2005, 11:34 PM

For Comp Removal, did you mean to put 1.71 at +30 or -30?

parabolize

May 31st, 2005, 12:14 AM

-30. Sell the old parts. Mostly I set it that way so upgrading would still be cheap like devnullicus(?) wanted it. I doubt anybody really wants to retrobuild everything.

parabolize

June 1st, 2005, 02:02 AM

If there is to be a chance to get 1.71 on the SE4 deluxe CD I need to send it now. I tested everything and uploaded to pbw and se.net. I might make a 1.72 but I would like to see the Devnull Mod in good condition on the CD.

Download (http://www.spaceempires.net/home/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=viewdownloaddetail s&lid=479&ttitle=Devnull_Mod_1.71#dldetails)

Atrocities

June 7th, 2005, 11:31 PM

You can always add an update after the fact. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif The people who get the mod on the D-CD can then visit your website and update to the current version.

Looks like the image mod is not going to be on the CD... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif Oh well. I look forward to the influx of new players and their confuse over how to install the image mod.

Ragnarok-X

June 8th, 2005, 02:34 PM

So, will the upgrade be used in pbw ?

parabolize

June 9th, 2005, 03:20 AM

Ragnarok-X said:
So, will the upgrade be used in pbw ?

Would PBW admin please list 1.71? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Unco

June 9th, 2005, 01:54 PM

Is it possible to upgrade an already in progress PBW Devnull game from 1.7 to 1.71?

Ragnarok-X

June 9th, 2005, 02:28 PM

I think it is. If para only changed existing components, and didnt messed up the order of them within the game files, it will work. If he added new components and added them at the bottom, it will work as well. If he pasted them in between, it wont. Somehow SE4 is made up really weird, it remember the number of components instead of the name, for example if you had a ship with 5 lvl 5 anti-proton beams and those were component numbers 150, then SE4 will always call for number 150 component. Now if a new component was entered before the antiproton beam, its number will have changed to 151..

Fyron

June 9th, 2005, 03:00 PM

It does allow multiple components to exist with the same name though, such as different versions of a component based on the racial traits you possess. The game could store some sort of checksum of the data fields for each component and throw everything into a hash table, alleviating the need to store an array-type index. Unfortunately, this scheme would be broken by modifying the values of any item.

Anything other than an array-type (or hash table) data structure would probably lead to horribly slow access times. Imagine having to potentially scan through the entire list to load the pictures for each component shown in the ship design window. Or worse, the component display sections when viewing a ship design's details. You could reduce this by checking each item you need displayed for every item accessed in the list, but it still won't be pretty.

There could be a balance tree storing the components by names, allowing multiple items to exist with the same name. This would allow for far more rapid access times (on the order of the length of the longest component name), but it would be tricky to properly handle multiple components with the same name. How do you differentiate between them while still allowing the data fields (and the name itself) to be changed and maintain savegame compatibility? You could disallow name changes, which is probably ok. But if you allow other fields to be changed, you can't very well use them to differentiate between different components with the same name. Since the tree would have to be rebuilt after reloading the game, we are back to a scheme of ordering components with identical names by position in the file. They at least would have to be kept in the same order, with any new copies added after their position in the file.

You could have some fancy "array" that is indexed by component name, but you run into the same problem for components of the same name.

Ragnarok-X

June 9th, 2005, 04:08 PM

yeah, still i think the "apply number to component" idea is pretty much the worst, isnt it ?

parabolize

June 9th, 2005, 05:14 PM

1.71 is now listed. Thank you PBW admin!
1.70 should upgrade to 1.71 though I have not tried it.

PTF

June 13th, 2005, 04:11 AM

parabolize said:
1.71 is now listed. Thank you PBW admin!
1.70 should upgrade to 1.71 though I have not tried it.

Could anybody point me on that? Where is 1.71 listed?

Fyron

June 13th, 2005, 04:29 AM

It is a mod option when creating a new game.

PTF

June 13th, 2005, 04:41 AM

I see, it is a PBW thing only.

Fyron

June 13th, 2005, 05:32 AM

I'm not sure what you mean. You can download it from PBW or from SEnet.

parabolize said:
If there is to be a chance to get 1.71 on the SE4 deluxe CD I need to send it now. I tested everything and uploaded to pbw and se.net. I might make a 1.72 but I would like to see the Devnull Mod in good condition on the CD.

Download (http://www.spaceempires.net/home/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=viewdownloaddetail s&lid=479&ttitle=Devnull_Mod_1.71#dldetails)

PTF

June 13th, 2005, 04:05 PM

Thanks. I was just not aware of these download sources. I am still looking at malfador's mod page and there is still 1.70 listed.

Fyron

June 13th, 2005, 05:29 PM

That page is out of date. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Rathan

July 14th, 2005, 04:05 PM

Is it okay if I make a mod that uses the devnull mod's components and techtree (I plan to expand/modify them not just use them as is)? I will give credit of course.

Ragnarok-X

July 14th, 2005, 06:43 PM

I think so, yes. Given you give proper credits http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

parabolize

July 14th, 2005, 11:09 PM

Ragnarok-X said:
I think so, yes. Given you give proper credits http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I second that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

AMF

July 15th, 2005, 08:40 AM

I'm going to upgrade to 1.71, but after downloading the zip file, I noticed that it looks like the files in it are not self-extracting into the various folders...is there a possibility that the zip could be made into a self-extracting one with the folder structure? Or am I just being stupid here?

thanks,

Alarik

Fyron

July 15th, 2005, 02:07 PM

Hmm... it seems to work fine for me. What program are you using to view the archive? Do you happen to have "flat folder view" or a similar option enabled?

parabolize

July 16th, 2005, 04:54 AM

Use this archive manager (http://www.7-zip.org/dl/7z423.exe) to extract the Devnull171 folder into your se4 folder. After that you may want to create a Savegame folder inside the Devnull171 folder to reduce confusion (sorry its not there in the first place).

AMF

July 16th, 2005, 05:34 AM

That's probably what I did. So, of the two possibilities, I guess the second one was accurate (ie: I was just being stupid).

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Thanks,

Alarik

Oversway

November 3rd, 2005, 06:42 PM

Thanks to parabolize (and any others). I'm glad for the update to devnull, it is my favorite mod.

Rollo

February 21st, 2006, 10:25 PM

*With his newfound powers in necromancy Rollo twirls a dead cat around his head and pours a keg of mead over the thread.
'Rise thread, RISE!'

First of all many thanks to parabolize for doing the last update while I was away.

I have started where I left off, and working on the new version for DevnullMod Gold again. From the looks of it will be version 1.80 rather than 1.72, which means older games will not be compatible.

Here is what I have done so far:
Version 1.80 (special thanks to David E. Gervais and dogscoff)
22.02.2006:
* added more positions to Sonne formation
* new AI for temporal races: Xiati and Sallega
* updates to Cue Cappa/Abbidon AI
* raised retrofit Max Percent Difference to 70
* corrected typo in description of normal mounts
* corrected typo in description of massive ship mounts
* renamed 'Space Yard - Ship' to 'Mobile Space Yard' to avoid confusion with 'Space Yard - Base'
* Reactive Armor is only allowed on Ship\Base to prevent exploit with Weapon Platform PD mounts
* changed planets.bmp: new asteroids by David E. Gervais
* added new asteroid portraits (new pics by David E. Gervais)
* changed stats for Incinerator Beam (still needs playtesting)
* raised damage for Graviton Hellbore, gave double damage vs. shields, and +20% to hit
* raised tech cost for Graviton Hellbore to 10k
* added new picture for monster drone by dogscoff
* added Single Satellite Tube to make deployment of remote miners and spy sats easier in simultaneous games
* updated standard formations from the stock game
* added more positions to the custom formations (Hard Flanks, Dark Wing, Cube, etc)
* changed values for Massive Planetary Shield Generator (ruins tech)
* reduced cost for Emotionless trait
* reduced cost for Advanced Power Conservation trait
* reduced cost for Mechanoids trait
* added new ruins tech (ancient atmospheric processors)
* more tweaks to various formations
* Supply Storage is now allowed on drones, but not on satellites anymore
* Solar Collectors are now allowed on drones, but not on satellites anymore
* raised repair capability of higher level space yard facilities
* added new intro pic, thanks to David E. Gervais for teaching =)
* added new game buttons, by David E. Gervais (note: there is also a .../pictures/game/buttons/main_for_whimps.bmp for non-Viking themed buttons)
* added back new formations that were left out in version 1.71
* rolled back changes to SystemTypes.txt, StellarAbilityTypes.txt and QuadrantTypes.txt
* added Compact, Triple Threat, Column, Flank, Staggered Flank, Pincer and Pyramid formations from Strategies mod
* changed and smoothed population modifiers for worlds with more then 12000 (only effects constructed planets). A fully populated Sphereworld now gets 310% bonus.
* removed redundant master computer components from AI designs
* added temporal base space yard components (requires temporal tech and base tech, similar to the Space Yard - Base components)
* raised bonus for small sensors and ecm components
* changed vehiclesize.txt: large hulls are now easier to hit (for example battleships now get a -20% to defense)
* spinal mounts and heavy mounts require a battleship hull or bigger
* Battle Cruisers get a +10% to hit

Rollo

February 21st, 2006, 10:39 PM

Oh, and here is a peek at my to do list. With some ideas what is to come. Some things that need to be done. Some things that may or may not be. And, ummm, some cryptic stuff that I have no clue what it actually means.
At any rate it is food for thought

to do:
======
[?] tweak mounts -> remove the -20 from DN mount and rebalance accordingly
[] raise DUC damage slightly and give it 1/2 damage to shields
[] look at incinerator beam again for balance
[] add new mount for heavy cruiser (size600)?
[] Xiati _AI_General file and new .emp files
[] copy Xiati files to Sallega

ideas: expert fighter pilots trait (gives special cockpit component with +10 combat modifiers, maybe tech tree with better levels), also expert capital ships?, engineers, etc...

AI to do:
=========
Xiati et al. AI (temporal)
[] Terran et al.AI (missile/fighter heavy)
[] Phong et al. AI (crystalline)
[?] replace untweaked AI with newer versions even if racial tech doesn't match? (no crystal AI, yet)
[] add new Taera graphics
[] check facilty files for Planet - shield generation and change the Phased Shield Generation
[] check research of mil sci 2 and adv mil sci
[] add supermonitor designs to older design files (EEE, Cuecappa, Vikings, etc..)
[] Sergetti+? AI (PPB)
[] Taera AI (bio-cryst)
[] Sharlon AI psy/org (need permission for shipset?)
[] more crossover AIs, need more races (Ixaris? and others)
[] revise Amonkrie/Fazrah AI (no offense Geo =) )
[] custom contruction_units files

more ideas: crystal amplified thought control centre (+happines in system as a base/ship component. psy/crsytal crossover tech)
portable war/death shrine
psy/crys crew quarters with repair
psy/crys reduced maintenance

new stuff (and ruins tech)

* cloked sats with gravity warheads (sector damgage like storms) to make unsweepable mines -> (tested it, but the AI doesn't like the sector damage ability)
* ancient SY add-ons (expensive, 1000 build rate per add-on)
* more engineering levels (see thread)
* maintenance red. for bases (and/or ships?). stackable?
* emergency propulsion for bases? (doesn't work)
* small null space weapons for fighters
* finding officers in ruins?
* monster lore, type B tech, can be gained only though capture and analysis of monsters -> hints, components, sensors (probably not unless new monster race is added)
* ancient tech that gives super weapons when reserch is maxed (for example APB XII + ancient tech = APB XIII)

maybe:
[] rework shield system
[+] rebalance weapons (GHB, IB, HBMissile)
[] ablative armor to Weapon platforms?
[] add more normal armor IV-VI?
[] add more stuff to psy/crys and temp/rel
[] crossover tech when all three(?) massive weapon techs have been found (Puke's Sci-Fi Cannon)

possible abilities for components (for crosover techs) needs checking if it works:
[] check Sector - Sensor Interference
[?] training component temp/rel
[] check Combat Modifier - System on comps
[] check Damage Modifier - System on comps
[] check Modified Maintenance Cost on comps
[] assimilation warheads (crew conversation) for drones and mines (psy/crys crossover)

Fyron

February 21st, 2006, 10:52 PM

* rolled back changes to SystemTypes.txt, StellarAbilityTypes.txt and QuadrantTypes.txt

I'm not sure that is the best idea... The version of FQM that was in the mod before was really, really old. You should probably update it again. There have been some significant fixes and improvements since 1.12 or so.

possible abilities for components (for crosover techs) needs checking if it works:
[] check Sector - Sensor Interference
[] check Combat Modifier - System on comps
[] check Damage Modifier - System on comps
[] check Modified Maintenance Cost on comps

The first 3 of these will work on components. Never tested the maintenance one, assuming you refer to the system-wide crystalline ability, however.

Black_Knyght

February 21st, 2006, 10:53 PM

Damn, that's a helluva lot of work goin' on. I can't wait to see where this ends up.

Rollo

February 21st, 2006, 11:04 PM

Imperator Fyron said:

* rolled back changes to SystemTypes.txt, StellarAbilityTypes.txt and QuadrantTypes.txt

I'm not sure that is the best idea... The version of FQM that was in the mod before was really, really old. You should probably update it again. There have been some significant fixes and improvements since 1.12 or so.

Yeah, I know. However, simply copying over the FQM files makes it impossible to make classic quadrants.
Personally I don't like all the abilities added to standard suns, planets, warppoints, and asteroids. And the AI doesn't like them either.

parabolize

February 22nd, 2006, 02:39 AM

I was thinking about making some AI improvements but if you are back I will just dump them on you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Basically I wanted the AIs putting better components on their ships and better facilities on their planets. Like armor, no good reason a large ship shouldn't have 1 Scattering/Stealth/Emissive armor. But its kinda hard to make the AI put on 3 types of armor. So you add them as different abilities; Emissive as armor, Stealth as cloak, Scattering as scanner jammer. You may need to reorder a few components abilities to do it though.

As it is right now I think AIs never build Mineral Scanners, Hybrid Eco - Farms or Radioactives Colliders.

I think the AIs should build cargo facilities with some weapons platforms. If the AI is crapy at attacking why not make it good at defending?

I was also thinking about giving the AI a different ECM/Combat Sensors tech tree that added 40% to each level because the AIs are not training ships no matter how hard I try.

Anyway, its nice to have you back.

Captain Kwok

February 22nd, 2006, 02:51 AM

You can also use the AI Tags (there's 20 of them) to help the AI choose components as well.

Captain Kwok

February 22nd, 2006, 03:03 AM

Also, you may consider giving the AI System - Training facilities instead so they can at least inadvertently train.

Atrocities

February 22nd, 2006, 03:56 AM

AI improvements would be a welcome addition. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Fyron

February 22nd, 2006, 06:18 AM

Captain Kwok said:
Also, you may consider giving the AI System - Training facilities instead so they can at least inadvertently train.

Devnull was perhaps the first mod to do this. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Atrocities

February 22nd, 2006, 08:33 AM

I still remember when I first played the mod so many years ago. I was like "oh my god you can do this?"

frightlever

February 22nd, 2006, 10:59 AM

Good news to see there's going to be a new version of Dev Null. I had a hankering to play so more SE4 last weekend after a break of about a year but it didn't feel right until I remembered about DevNull.

Rollo

February 22nd, 2006, 01:24 PM

Thanks for feedback, all.

@parabolize: the AI is actually doing a good job using all kinds of different components and facilities (well, the updated ones anyway). Using different kinds of armor isn't very hard to do, like you said, you just have use the correct abilities. Most races use 3 or 4 (sometimes up to 5) kinds of armor. The Xiati, for example, use steath, scatter, emissive, normal and ablative armor, and later also the hardenered shield generators (which replace the normal armor and/or ablative armor).

Mineral Scanners etc are also built, but I agree it is a rare thing and doesn't happen until the late game. I usually have high levels of resource extraction very far down the research list. And then the AI has to find a suitable planet, too. But it's a good idea, I will add that to my notes to make an AI that focusses more on resources and less on military and see how that turns out.

Cargo facilities are kind of wasted slots IMO. There is very little a modder can do to actually build units where the actual cargo space is available. Overall the locations for AI contruction is pretty erratic. Besides, domed worlds have had their cargo space doubled (in version 1.60 or 1.70) to mitigate some of the AI (and perhaps player) cargo woes.

Giving the AI tech that humans cannot have (AI only tech) is a big no-no for me. Besides from cluttering up the racial traits, I just don't like the AI to cheat (well, besides the AI bonus to make up for general AI inefficiency). But I agree that Sensors and ECM can be a problem, if you look at the stuff that is being done right now, you will see that I am tweaking a lot with to-hit chances.

@CaptainKwok: All training facilities (for humans and AI) are system wide in DevnullMod Gold. Again, I am not going to give the AI any tech that humans cannot get.

oh, and to prove that I am indeed making progress. Here is some more news:
* Battle Cruisers get a +10% to hit
* removed level 4 for Base Construction and lowered the requirements to get the Barge hull
* made large fighters a bit harder to hit
* added +1 innate combat movement to interceptor (medium fighter)
* added Afterburners IV component
* added Broadsides Mount for ships 600+
* raised damage for Depleted Uranium Cannon, but gave it 1/2 damage to shields
* added maintenance reduction to Barge
* reduced the minus to-hit for DN mount from -20 to -10 (for now)

and finally... duh!!! This is so obvious and mitigates such a great AI woe.. I cannot believe I didn't think of this years ago:
* added +15% Defense Bonus to Cloaking Device and gave it the same family number as Steath Armor to prevent stacking

Rollo

February 23rd, 2006, 12:56 AM

well, well... making good progress. Not so much work done on the the data files, but giving the Xiati AI some last tweaks before release. Also here is a little thing:
* added two little batch files to install FQM-Quadrants and Classic_Quadrants back and forth

Think of this as a quick and dirty version of the mod picker, which lets you choose which types of quadrants you prefer. Now both the FQM and the Classic crowd can be happy =).

Also speaking of release earlier... I think I am pretty close to be able to relase this version, but before I do here is some questions. I do this because there are a lot of ideas floating around right now, that will most likely make games from this version 1.80 imcompatibel (again). But I am willing to relase this soon-ish, even if not totally balanced in some cases and still in work, if there is interest and people want to playtest.

Question 1: Which AI would you like to see next?
a) Fighter and Missile heavy AI (Terrans, Jraenar, etc)
b) Crystalline AI (Phong et al.)

Question 2: I have read some reports about weak AI in some cases. Well, actually the AI is pretty good (by my standards). It's just that not all of the races have had updates, yet (list of up-to-date and good AI are at the bottom of this post). And if people start games with random races, they are likely to get some of them (all the updated races have .emp files, btw).

How would you prefer to handle these not-up-to-par races?
a) Temporarily delete them from the mod until they get updated.
b) Replace the AI files with copies from the updated races for now, even if that means the races lose some of their characteristic traits and weapon choices.
c) Leave them as they are. I don't mind a few punching bags.

Question 3: How soon would you like to see this new version released?
a) Give us the new stuff NOW! Even if it means I have to start a new game with the next version.
b) Nonono, stop breaking our old savegames now, if you are going to do it again with the next update. I'd rather wait longer to get a more polished version later.

Alrighty that's about it. Feel free to comment outside the provided choices. Oh, and question4: do you actually play Devnullmod Gold or are planning to do so? =)

PS: list of races which have been created or updated
by Rollo: Cue Cappa, Abbidon, Norak, Toltayan, Eee, Drushocka, Praetorian, UkraTal, XiChung, Space Vikings, United Flora, Sonne, Monsters.
by Geoschmo: Amonkrie and Fazrah

PsychoTechFreak

February 23rd, 2006, 10:01 AM

* added two little batch files to install FQM-Quadrants and Classic_Quadrants back and forth

Neat !

Question 1: Which AI would you like to see next?
a) Fighter and Missile heavy AI (Terrans, Jraenar, etc)
b) Crystalline AI (Phong et al.)

a) and b) with somewhat higher priority on a)

Question 2: ...How would you prefer to handle these not-up-to-par races?

c) Leave them as they are. I don't mind a few punching bags.

Question 3: How soon would you like to see this new version released?

I don't mind to start a new game, but I don't mind to wait for a polished version also.

question4: do you actually play Devnullmod Gold or are planning to do so? =)

Let me put it this way, I am always watching singleplayer mods with competitive but non-cheating AI. I am looking forward to start a new one with Devnullmod 1.80, certainly - but take your time, please.

Rollo

March 3rd, 2006, 02:59 PM

Thanks for the feedback PTF. I'll be away for 10 days and after I get back I'll tie up some loose ends in the mod and release a new version.

Ragnarok-X

March 3rd, 2006, 09:44 PM

Any interest in a proper PBW-games once the final V is released ?

Black_Knyght

March 4th, 2006, 09:03 PM

Any idea on a specific timetable for the new DevNull's release ?

Rollo

March 14th, 2006, 02:36 PM

Black_Knyght said:
Any idea on a specific timetable for the new DevNull's release ?

nope, but I am back now.
If my little sideproject doesn't distract me too much, I should find the time to wrap up this version soon.

Rollo

March 23rd, 2006, 07:19 PM

Just because someone wanted to know what the status of the update is and what has been done so far:

Version 1.80 (special thanks to David E. Gervais, dogscoff, Fyron)
23.03.2006: not released yet
* added more positions to Sonne formation
* new AI for temporal races: Xiati and Sallega
* updates to Cue Cappa/Abbidon AI
* raised retrofit Max Percent Difference to 70
* corrected typo in description of normal mounts
* corrected typo in description of massive ship mounts
* renamed 'Space Yard - Ship' to 'Mobile Space Yard' to avoid confusion with 'Space Yard - Base'
* Reactive Armor is only allowed on Ship\Base to prevent exploit with Weapon Platform PD mounts
* changed planets.bmp: new asteriods by David E. Gervais
* added new asteroid portraits (new pics by David E. Gervais)
* raised damage for Incinerator Beam and gave it +10/15/20 to-hit
* raised damage for Graviton Hellbore, gave double damage vs. shields, and +20% to hit
* raised tech cost for Graviton Hellbore to 10k
* added new picture for monster drone by dogscoff
* added Single Satellite Tube to make deployment of remote miners and spy sats easier in simultaneous games
* updated standard formations from the stock game
* added more positions to the custom formations (Hard Flanks, Dark Wing, Cube, etc)
* changed values for Massive Planetary Shield Generator (ruins tech)
* reduced cost for Emotionless trait
* reduced cost for Advanced Power Conservation trait
* reduced cost for Mechanoids trait
* added new ruins tech (ancient atmospheric processors)
* more tweaks to various formations
* Supply Storage is now allowed on drones, but not on satellites anymore
* Solar Collectors are now allowed on drones, but not on satellites anymore
* raised repair capability of higher level space yard facilities
* added new intro pic, thanks to David E. Gervais for teaching =)
* added new game buttons, by David E. Gervais (note: there is also a .../pictures/game/buttons/main_for_whimps.bmp for non-Viking themed buttons)
* added back new formations that were left out in version 1.71
* rolled back changes to SystemTypes.txt, StellarAbilityTypes.txt and QuadrantTypes.txt
* added Compact, Triple Threat, Column, Flank, Staggered Flank, Pincer and Pyramid formations from Strategies mod
* changed and smoothed population modifiers for worlds with more then 12000 (only effects constructed planets). A fully populated Sphereworld now gets 310% bonus.
* removed redundant master computer components from AI designs
* added temporal base space yard components (requires temporal tech and base tech, similar to the Space Yard - Base components)
* raised bonus for small sensors and ecm components
* changed vehiclesize.txt: large hulls are now easier to hit (for example battleships now get a -20% to defense)
* spinal mounts and heavy mounts now require a battleship hull or bigger
* Battle Cruisers and Heavy Destroyers get a +10% to hit
* removed level 4 for Base Construction and lowered the requirements to get the Barge hull
* tweaked offense and defense bonus for fighters
* added +1 innate combat movement to interceptor (medium fighter)
* added Afterburners IV component
* added Broadsides Mount for ships 600+
* raised damage for Depleted Uranium Cannon, but gave it 1/2 damage to shields
* added maintenance reduction to Barge
* reduced the minus to-hit for DN mount from -20 to -10 (for now)
* added +15% Defense Bonus to Cloaking Device and gave it the same family number as Steath Armor to prevent stacking (old Cloak family number was 26)
* added two little batch files to install FQM-Quadrants and Classic_Quadrants back and forth (thanks Fyron)
* added Massive Point Defense, Computer Virus, and Repulsor Beam as ruin techs
* added Applied Science Fiction Lore tech area that opens up once all massive weapon are found. The tech area gives infamous Sci-Fi Canon Cannon. In full tech games it is recommended to turn Applied Science Fiction Lore OFF.
* added proto-mineral scanners, eco-farms, and rad colliders, which function as placeholder and regular extraction facilities, but can be upgraded once the tech is available (good for AI and can reduce human micromanagement if the upgrade button is used), same for system scanners etc.
* removed some of the imbalances between Methane and other atmospheres, as well as Ice and Rock planet types
* updated /Data/FQM_systems with the FQM standard v1.23 files
* revised all weapon mounts
* lowered the minus to-hit per distance to 5 and the base to-hit chance to 85
* slightly reduced all defense bonuses for components. ECM is now 17/36/56, other components were balanced accordingly
* lowered size and structure for cloaking devices to 30kt, higher level cloaks increase the ECM bonus slighty compared to stealth armor.
* added Space Tugs vehicles and mounts to pull artificial stellar moon components into place
* removed System Fleet Training Facilities
* toned down bonus for System Ship Training Facilities, and the Psychic Training Facilities
* changed family (2051) and weapon number (53) for Psychic Stun Crystal (was sharing same with mental flailer before)
* added prototype facilities for research and intel as well
* tweaked all AI_construction_facilities queues to include modifying facilities sooner
* tweaked all AI_construction_facilities queues to include planet shields
* revised personality groups: AI that share many files and/or race techs are now grouped together, non-updated AI have their chances to be placed greatly reduced
* added new Taera graphics and gave them a copy of the UkraTal/Xichung AI for now, also added the insect.txt to /dsgnname
* changed description of the PDC to make clear they only shoot seekers and sweep mines
* raised damage of Mini-PDCs and gave them AI Tag 01
* slighty raised/smoothed the damage resistence of some seekers (CSM, Plasma Missile, Crystalline Torpedo)

Rollo

March 23rd, 2006, 07:21 PM

...and a synopsis of the above:
* new AI for temporal races: Xiati and Sallega
* lots of tweaks to other races that should improve performance
* fixed an exploit with Weapon Platform PD mounts and Reactive Armor
* improved weapon balance
* lots of new ruins techs, including the infamous Sci-Fi Canon Cannon
* graphical updates
* now supports both FQM (full implementation) AND classic Quadrants
* lots of tweaks involving to-hit chances
* revised mounts
* races with non-revised AI are now added very sparsely or not at all
* and more

maybe still to come (or in next update):
* higher levels of Engineering with nifty multipurpose components

Dizzy

March 30th, 2006, 11:29 AM

Rollo, I added Atrocities Imperial Shipset to your 1.71 devnull mod and when I load the game windows gives me a load error window for 'Imperial 2k.emp'.

I added the 2k, 3k and 5k .emp Imperial files to the Devnull Empire folder as asked of me by the readme and I dropped the imperial.txt into the Devnull Dsgnname folder. The imperials load on the standard game, but not with your mod.

What do I need to do to get them to work?

Fyron

March 30th, 2006, 03:03 PM

Don't use the .emp files. Make new ones.

Rollo

March 30th, 2006, 03:09 PM

yep, .emp files are mod specific most of the time.
If the \data\RacialTraits.txt of two mods are different, then the .emp files are not portable.

Dizzy

April 3rd, 2006, 11:19 PM

Ok, well I created a new race and just used the shipset, but I have no ship names. Ideas?

Oh, and the system map wouldnt come up till I replaced all aytocities text files with those of the Devnul's vikings. Im sure another race woulda worked as well... But atrocities text files did not.

Fyron

April 4th, 2006, 01:08 AM

The race is using a design names file that is not present in the mod.

Design Names Anthology has nearly every design name file in it. You could stick em in your stock folder, then remove the ones from mods (move the files over first just in case DNA is missing some).

http://dna.spaceempires.net

Dizzy

April 4th, 2006, 10:06 AM

Hehe, ok, I'll bite. What do i need to do to get it to show?

In the Dsgnname folder I put the Imperial.txt. In the Race folder's Imperial_AI_General.txt, the line:

Design Name File := imperial.txt

matches with whats in the dsgname folder. Is there something more to it?

Fyron

April 4th, 2006, 02:26 PM

Are you loading an empire file or letting the AI generate randomly? Or creating the empire manually? Did you put it in the Devnull folder or the stock folder?

Dizzy

April 4th, 2006, 11:01 PM

Put devnull mod in the same folder as the exe. Load it up on the launcher and ive confirmed 4 sur that its the devnull mod im playing.

Ive dropped the imperial.txt into devnulls dsgname folder witht he rest of them. There is also a duplicate in the stock folder. The race pic and txt files are also in devnulls proper folders. Its all where its supposed to go.

The game would not load a system map for a new game with atrocities imperial shipset when I chose 'Add New' and selected the star wars pics for my race I created since the .emp's wouldnt work.

Only until after I replaced and renamed all the txt files in the Imperial race folder with Devnulls Vikings (I'm sure any custom race would have worked from devnulls) would the system map show. All other times it was blacked out.

I have the vikings political traits, annoying, and no ship names, further annoying, and it just doesnt feel complete. I feel I am playing a poor patch. Im not into my game as much as Id like to be.

What can I do to fix it?

Suicide Junkie

April 4th, 2006, 11:46 PM

**Don't use EMPs**
They don't work in mods that use a different race setup, for obvious reasons.

Just create a new race, and you'll be fine.
Type in whatever descriptions you like, select whatever ship name list you like via the dropdown.

---

Occasionally you won't see the system view the first time you run a mod.
Just save and reload the game. It only happens the first time, so nobody has been able to figure out why.

Rollo

April 4th, 2006, 11:51 PM

I don't quite get the problem. Do you want to use the Imperials as an AI race or your own?

If the latter, just create the race traits as you like in the game setup and select your designnames in the dropdown. Don't need any AI_files for that.

Dizzy

April 5th, 2006, 09:51 AM

It doesnt work otherwise, Rollo. And im not using emp's SJ.

I dont know why it gives me a blacked out system screen when I use the Imperial txt files. Only works for me as a playable race when I use the vikings txt from devnulls.

Thats why I need help. When is the new version ready? Mb this one is just fubared.

Rollo

April 5th, 2006, 10:46 AM

The blacked out systems have nothing to do with adding the Imperials as a race. At least I have never seen such a thing.

Much more likely this is due a change you did to the /data files.

As for the new Devnull Mod Gold version? Soon =).

Dizzy

April 5th, 2006, 12:01 PM

Allright, just to clear it up... mb there is a glaring error that I made, but here's the scoop.

I put the devnull folder into the main directory. I changed the pathway txt to devnull171 so the launcher loads devnull171 when started or when using the standard exe. Its gonna load devnull171 regardless.

I dropped the emp's into the devnull empire folder, told that wouldnt work anywya.

I dropped atrocities shipset imperial folder into devnulls picture/races folder.

I dropped the imperial txt names file into devnulls dsgname folder.

When I initially tried atrocities shipset, the emp's ouldnt work. Was told to create a new race using the shipset and then choose the txt names i wanted.

When I started the game, i got a black system screen.

Only when I totally replaced and renamed all the imperial txt files with the devnuklls vikings did i get system info.

After that, I started changing some components around. Not before.

So, what did I do wrong and what is wrong with what I did?

Fyron

April 5th, 2006, 03:38 PM

Did you replace the images too, or just text files?

Try opening and saving all of the Imperial text files in wordpad or so.

Dizzy

April 5th, 2006, 06:24 PM

Just the txt files. And my notepad works for editing the txt files just fine. But I didnt do any editing prior to the game not giving me a system screen...

Rollo

April 5th, 2006, 07:03 PM

Dizzy said:
Allright, just to clear it up... mb there is a glaring error that I made, but here's the scoop.

I put the devnull folder into the main directory. I changed the pathway txt to devnull171 so the launcher loads devnull171 when started or when using the standard exe. Its gonna load devnull171 regardless...(snip)...

So, what did I do wrong and what is wrong with what I did?

Don't see anything wrong with what you did.

Was this the unmodded DevnullMod171, or something you have modded? As said earlier, adding a race won't cause the systems to be blank. Only changes to the mod itself, IIRC.

I would suggest starting over with the fresh version 1.71 and adding the Imperials then. See how that goes.

Fyron

April 5th, 2006, 08:26 PM

Dizzy said:
Just the txt files. And my notepad works for editing the txt files just fine. But I didnt do any editing prior to the game not giving me a system screen...

Ok... did you try what I suggested?

Dizzy

April 6th, 2006, 01:46 AM

Ill try wordpad tomorrow. But i mean, it works now, but the damned things given me no shipnames.

Rollo

April 9th, 2006, 02:37 AM

Well, good news. I have made fine progress. Here are the latest changes:

* removed small emissive armor
* removed abilities from small organic and crytalline armors, since they aren't working for units anyways. Reduced their sizes to 1 to make better fit on units
* reduced cost for small shield generators
* restricted Solar Sails to one per vehicle
* added Balanced System Mod as another selection for different quadrant styles
* removed Master Computer I and II, made Master Computer III a ruins tech (#10)
* increased cost and size for Allegiance Subverter by 100 and reduced range by 2
* added Psychic Weapon Mount that brings back Allegiance Subverter back to its original size and cost, effectively making AS an unmountable weapon, except for its own mount
* reduced minerals cost for Allegiance Subverter but increased rad cost and largely increased its organic cost. reasoning: it needs manpower (psychics) to operate. for the same reason AS can no longer be placed on satellites or drones.
* added boarding defense to Allegiance Subverter and Boarding Parties
* added Death Ray (ancient ruins tech) that kills boarding defense only (can be used against Allegiance Subverter, Boarding Parties, Security Stations, Telepathic Armor, and Monster Immune System)
* added Death Ray as requirement for the Sci-Fi Cannon
* made Monitors (baseships) and Starbases immune to crew conversion
* added Master Computer tech area. MC has to be researched after finding it in a ruin and getting to Computers level 3.
* added Advanced Master Computer that combines a MC with a neural combat net, if both ruins were found and MC tech researched
* revised a lot of the CueCappa/Abbidon construction, research and designs
* revised some of the Sonne research and designs
* added the Quadrant Style Selector.exe that allows a player to switch between different quadrant mods, Classic, FQM, and Balanced mod
* added /data/Classic Systems, /Data/FQM Systems and /data/Balanced Systems folders and appropriate files. These folders act as source for the Quadrant Mod Selector
* updated /Data/FQM Systems with the FQM v1.23 files
* cut away unneeded images for component and planet minis and moved/renumbered some planets to make file smaller (components are still image mod compliant)
* revised (generally increased) fleet sizes for all AI races
* added Ancient Technology tech group and moved/reordered all ruin tech areas
* reduced costs for seekers (for some of them greatly reduced costs)
* increased damage resistance for ionic pulse missile and tweaked damage, range and speed a bit
* tweaked fighter offense and defense bonus
* set to-hit bonus for AFM to 70 for all sizes
* raised to-hit bonus for PDC to 90
* raised to-hit bonus for mini-PDC to 80
* raised Seeker Combat Defense Modifier to 110
* reduced Planet Combat Offense Modifier to 10
* reduced bonus for Accelerated Psychic Sensors to 10/20/30
* added Equal Systems from Balance Mod to Classic Quadrant SystemTypes.txt
* added Asteroid Belt with Planets to Classic Quadrant SystemTypes.txt
* added AI Friendly Quadrant to Classic Quadrant QuadrantTypes.txt (no hazard systems, some equal systems, no storms or 'useless' systems, asteroid belts have one planet of each type, systems have few warp points and quadrant layout is string-like)
__________________________________________________ _________

Apart from cleaning up some stuff, my todo list is done. I am going to test the mod a bit now and see if made any big and easy to catch mistakes.

So ETA has moved from 'soon' to 'very soon' http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif.

Rollo

April 10th, 2006, 07:15 PM

Ta-daaa!
And here it is, no teaser or April fool's joke this time. This is the real thing:

DevnullMod Gold version 1.80 (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/download.php?Number=417665)

very short summary of changes and new features:
* New AIs: Xiati and Sallega, and updates to all other races.
* New graphics: Asteroids, Taera shipset, monster drone, new buttons and intro screen.
* Quadrant Style Selector: allows easy switching between different quadrant mods
* many more revisions, features and fixes: better weapon balance, new ruins techs, revised mounts and to hit chances, Master Computer is now a ruins tech, single satellite tube, Puke's infamous Sci-Fi Canon Cannon and much much more... please refer to readme for more details.

Have fun http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif,
Rollo

henk brouwer

April 11th, 2006, 04:33 PM

*pushes download button*

Rollo

April 11th, 2006, 08:07 PM

Hey, Henk!
good to see you are still around =).

henk brouwer

April 12th, 2006, 01:06 PM

Yes, I still lurk here occasionally while waiting for the release of SeV http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. Good to see you still around as well, I guess we are the only people here that actually link to dungeon odyssey related stuff in their sigs..

Anyhow, Judging by the lists of changes a lot of work was put into this version, I probably won't have time to play the new version of Devnull until somewhere next week but I'll try and give some more usefull comments when I do.

se5a

April 12th, 2006, 04:28 PM

have the normal shield and phased shields been fixed so the normal sheilds don't upgrade to the phased?

and can you add a phased shield regen?
AFAIK the normal one doesn not work on phased shields.

Ed Kolis

April 12th, 2006, 04:54 PM

There is only one shield regeneration ability. AFAIK it works on both types of shields...

Rollo

April 12th, 2006, 05:53 PM

That's cool Henk, no hurry, but I am always looking for feedback, of course.

se5a, what exactly do you think needs fixing with shields? Can you be a bit more specific?

And yeah, as Ed already said, shield regen works for either shield.

henk brouwer

April 21st, 2006, 01:29 PM

I finally got around to playing a game and so far it's great, one note so far, it seems that the AI's in my game are not investing as much in research as they should. I'm only 6th by total score but my research output is 5 times higher than any of the other races, in fact they are all still very close to the amount of research they started out with, and none of them seem to have build any research stations in the last 4 years (it's 2408 now). They keep up quite well when looking at the amount of tech levels they have researched because of their AI bonus, but they could do much better.

Here's a screenshot of the scores, it's a high tech cost, no intel game, I changed the monster's flag in my game because it looked a lot like the neutrals (I forgot to switch them off at the game start) I'm player 1 (the taera shipset)
http://img479.imageshack.us/img479/4570/racescore3mk.gif (http://imageshack.us)

The problem is probably made worse by the galaxy settings, (small, sparse galaxy) at this point most of the planets have been colonized and there's not much room to expand or build additional research facilities. Anyhow it couldn't hurt if one or two of the AI's were designed to build more research stations.

Anyhow, even though I'm doing well on the research front I'm having a lot of trouble keeping my empire together:), I did manage to conquer the Jraenar empire early on, but now the Cue Cappa attack me from behind. They use a lot of seekers (which are far more difficult to defend against in Devnull) and because of AI-bonus they can support huge fleets. (i'm having trouble with my upkeep at only 26 ships) My ships don't stand a chance against their fleets out in open space, but well designed weapon platforms with lots of pd at the planets bordering their empire can just stop them for now. I however still lost two far away systems to large Cue-Cappan fleets over the last year. Also the space monsters have picked me as their favourite victim http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I'm getting monster attacks almost every turn. Looks like I'm really going to need the research advantage I have build up http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

henk brouwer

April 24th, 2006, 05:55 AM

Never mind that last post, I just started a new game and the AI is building huge amounts of research facilities. I'm playing on a slightly larger map this time, but otherwise the settings are the same.

Why did I start a new game you ask? Well because the AI humiliated me in the last one http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. I might have been ahead in technology but that did not save me from the Cue-Cappan fleet of 59 ships with missiles and fighters that suddenly entered my homesystem.

Anyhow, geat mod. the techtree (or what I've seen of it) is mostly the same as stock, but weapons and components have been tweaked a lot, and interesting new ones have been added. It seems far better balanced compared to stock and the AI does a very good job at using the new options it has. I'm looking forward to new versions http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

David E. Gervais

April 24th, 2006, 05:04 PM

I'm here lurking too,.. <waves to everyone> Hi people.

Cheers! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Rollo

April 24th, 2006, 06:19 PM

Thanks for the great and informative feedback, Henk.

Glad the AI is researching better in the 2nd game. Honestly, I hadn't really known how to reply to the first report. But yeah, small Galaxy and monsters could easily throw the AI off-balance I assume. Killing fledgling research worlds very fast, and not letting the AI get a foot on the ground. And also glad the Cue Cappa managed to give you some troubles http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif. Looking at your scores it did seem to me you invested a bit too much into research and not enough resources to maintain a large enough standing fleet. Serves you right =P.

Keep us posted how the 2nd game goes, if you feel like it.
That applies for everyone, of course. There have been some extensive changes to to-hit chances, seekers and fighters. So looking for feedback and insights on that, but anything else as well really.

As for new versions... well, let's just say I hope it doesn't take over 2 years again. But I wouldn't expect anything for the next couple of months either. Apart from small typos, fixes, or any glaring mod breaking errors that have not been found yet.

and David! I knew you'd be lurking around somewhere... but I had no clue you were hiding in THIS thread http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif. I hope everything is well on your end. And thanks again for the pixel work tutelage. You will find some of your artwork that you sent to me oh so long ago in this new version.

narf poit chez BOOM

April 24th, 2006, 09:00 PM

/me waves back.

How's your mother doing? I remember you saying you were busy taking care of her.

henk brouwer

April 25th, 2006, 03:28 AM

Hi David, good to see you around too, are you still working on art for Malfador?

Rollo said:
Keep us posted how the 2nd game goes, if you feel like it.
That applies for everyone, of course. There have been some extensive changes to to-hit chances, seekers and fighters. So looking for feedback and insights on that, but anything else as well really.

Well in that case it might be usefull to tell a bit more about the dramatic downfall of the Jitwick Empire in my last game:

The war with the Cue Cappa had raged for years, only a few remembered how it all started. The treacherous Cue Cappa, once close allies, had attacked the Jitwick by suprise, and there had been no answer to their huge fleets of ships and missile technology, and many, many innocent lives had been lost.

The Jitwick however had learned from these early encounters: Their superior technology would not help against the cue cappa, they destroyed our fleets from long range with their more primitive, yet effective missile technology before we could use our state of the art weapons. We needed to build a large fleet with strong point defense to counter the threat. We would also need a more resource based economy. Work on the project started immediately.

And it worked! Captain Twurckle still fondly remembered how they defeated, a year ago, a huge Cue Cappan fleet of around 60 ships. Our fleet of 30 ships had been outnumbered but had had backup of point-defense weapon platforms from the planet below them. We suffered no losses. There was other news, the second Jitwick fleet was in Cue cappan teritory and was destroying their smaller colonies, it lacked the firepower to destroy their main worlds, but it was a start, the Jirwick were winning the war. The Cue Cappa were not about to give up: scouting forces warned of a 59 ship fleet that was approaching the homesystem, and reports from some small skirmishes elsewhere said that the cue cappa had acquired new technology: fighters. The large fleet had 5 carriers.

Captain Twurckle took immediate action. conventional point defense weapons (in Devnull) would not help against fighters, so he quickly produced and retrofitted several ships to use anti-fighter pd missiles. He parked his 27 ship fleet on top of a nearby world that had lots of conventional point defense (but not much offensive weapons) a quick calculation showed that they had more point defense than they needed.
The Cue Cappa fell for the trap, they thought the small Jitwick fleet would be easy prey, and they entered the sector. Captain Jirwick laughed his maniacal laughter when he saw the wall of fighters and misilles approach and nearly spilled his coffee.

He actually did spill his coffee when he saw things did not go as planned. The anti-fighter-pd missiles, which had longer range than the conventional pd, suddenly started firing on the incoming missiles. All of the anti-fighter pd was depleted when the conventional pd kicked in. The enemy missiles were easily destroyed but there was no means left to kill the fighters. The fighters came in at high speed dodged some panicked shots of directed fire weapons and started tearing apart the large Antares class pd ships that defended against the Cue cappan missiles. Captain Twurckle called for retreat, but with the Antares class ships gone he had no chance to outrun the cue cappan missiles.

After this the cue cappan quickly took out my most important worlds and I had no change to rebuild (losing important worlds can be painfull on a small map). I would probably have won the battle if I had used fighters myself, instead of anti-fighter pd, which is a usefull thing to remember for the future. Anyhow the point is that the anti fighter PD seems quite useless against fighters if the enemy also uses missiles, maybe their range should be reduced so they fire after conventional point defense, or they should no longer target seekers.

David E. Gervais

April 26th, 2006, 04:23 AM

Narf, Mom is doing as well as can be expected, thanks for asking.

Henk, yes I'm still doing Artwork for Malfador..

thread hijack over,..

Cheers! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

narf poit chez BOOM

April 26th, 2006, 01:37 PM

Well, if that means she's getting better, that's good. But that's probably private, so I'll but out now. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

oleg

July 13th, 2006, 07:24 AM

After a long distraction by normal life I want to start
playing SEIV again.
I never tried latest Devnull. One think I don't like
in unmoded sEIv is fast pace of research.
I often play with "high cost" and also reduced output
of research centers by 1/2.
I wonder what effect would it have on Devnull mod ?
Will it make game too slow ??
I'm planning to play large galaxy ~200 system with
~15 AI on low or medium bonus.

Rollo

July 13th, 2006, 09:47 AM

Devnull Mod Gold plays at the same pace as stock SE4. So lowering the research output will have the same effects.
I can not think of any mod specific reasons that speak against it.

Will it make the game too slow? Yes, IMHO it will. But to each his own. If you like slower research, go for it.

Dizzy

July 13th, 2006, 01:11 PM

Rollo, in the devnull mod Im doing, the Sonne race freaked out somehow and went on a mad rampage... Their research and resources are 5x that of any other empire cept mine... and I'm consistently ranking half they are in everything else... despite me capturing several early enemy race's HW's. Only thing I'm leading in is population.

What the hell happened? They are going nuts... You do anything special with their AI scripts or did they just get lucky this game? I'm especially impressed with their research and tech levels. Super impressive. When I got word they created a planet... I felt like a third world country at the advent of the atomic age...

Rollo

July 13th, 2006, 02:44 PM

Hey Dizzy, nope there isn't anything special about their script. But yes, the Sonne do have the potential to be a formidable opponent.
Just a mix of solid research and designs, and of course a portion of luck. Have fun with your battle against them.
Glad to hear the script works out to give you a challenge and even impress you.

oleg

July 13th, 2006, 02:56 PM

BTW, it might be usefull to update the download link in
the sticky "newbees" thread. It is still to 1.71
I started a game and played for a while bedore noticing 1.8 patch.

Dizzy

July 13th, 2006, 04:02 PM

Ya, only mod I play. I do want to try SJ's CBmod.

At this point in my campaign... Im thinking of a sneak attack against the Sonne. I dont know what AI are capable of when they get that nasty Stellar Manipulation Tech... but I'm kinda afraid to find out. If the Sonne created a planet... wont be long before they destroy one... and then start opening up warp gates into my backfield...

Course... its gonna be tough biting the hand that feeds me. My TR alliance with them is a HUGE chunk of change. Dunno what to do... Only thing I've managed to do is gift older outdated war machines to the United Flora Empire so the Sonne war with them lasts a while and keeps them occupied.

I'm edging toward a Japanese style Pearl Harbor attack... Course look how that went for the Japs...

Yimboli

July 14th, 2006, 09:35 AM

Hey Rollo

I was wondering... it was you that did the AI in CBMod, yes? I remember a long time ago playing devnull mod when devnullicus did it.. did you do the AI in the current devnull mod? Is it possible to compare the devnull AI to the CBMod AI? I don't PBW so mods with strong AI have immense appeal to me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Thanks!

Captain Kwok

July 14th, 2006, 11:23 AM

The AI in both mods is strong. Devnull is kind of like an enhanced and balanced stock version of SE:IV with some bonus features like Monsters. I think that most of the AIs are based on TDM ones.

CBmod is also reported to have strong AI. However, the mod itself is vastly different from stock or Devnull. I'd recommend that you check out some of SJ's support documention (ie school of ship design) for the mod when you first start...

Rollo

July 14th, 2006, 07:23 PM

Hello Yimboli, yes I did the AI for CB Mod and most of the AI for Devnull Mod Gold as well. Not all of the AI for DNM Gold have been updated yet and the Amonkrie and Fazrah were done by Geoschmo.

The races that I did update (they are listed in the readme and are the only ones that have .emp files) have pretty good AI, but unlike CB Mod they probably need a bit of a bonus (high difficulty, low or medium bonus).
If you like a mod with strong AI, I feel confident enough about them to recommend DNM Gold.

Comparing the AI is rather difficult, as the mods are very different. Pretty much as Kwok has already said.
Devnull Mod Gold AI is not based on TDM, though. Well, actually it partly is, since it IS based on the AI that I wrote for TDM (Vikings, CueCappa, United Flora). But DNM Gold calls for many tweaks in the AI files that you can say they are their own thing. And all the other races have been done completely from scratch or partly based on previous work. But I digress.

There are some similarities between CB Mod and DNM Gold AI, though. All races use combined weapon strategies, fighters, and use troops to capture planets.
But the differences are much larger: DNM Gold AI is aimed to be diverse. I tried a lot of different concepts to make the races use different gameplans and overall strategy. Some of these concepts work better than others, and some are very effective. Most of the scripts took very long to make, test, and fine-tune in order to make them cope with DNM Gold.

OTOH, CB Mod AI is pretty much a hack job. Not polished or optimized yet, but surprisingly strong. This is due to the superb way that CB Mod is set up. If I were to put numbers to it, I'd say the reason CB Mod AI is good is 70% because of the mod itself, 20% dumb luck, and 10% experience in doing AI on my part.

Hope that answers your question.