Space Empires 5

[Iron Giant]

Well?

Could it happen? Is it in the works?

There is a lot of competition this year (Moo3, IG3) but how about using the same code, but building on it? Moo3 looks like a lot of stuff, but can it compare to SE5?

1. Update the combat. 3d models in a 2d environment? I'd keep it turn based myself...

2. Double the races

3. Double the special techs (Crystal, etc.)

4. Larger ship/sat/base/fighter/drones

5. Add some diplomatic options.

6. Pirates?

7. More? Ideas? Gonna happen?

[Elowan]

How about a larger map to explore?

[sachmo]

I'm not sure if SE V is needed yet. From what I've been hearing, MOO3 could have a lot of issues when it goes gold. In fact, this past year I have been let down once too often on "new" games from the big publishers that I don't even forsee myself buying MOO3. SEIV is about as complete a game as I need.

[jimbob]

Iron Giant: As you may know, most of those suggestions are completely modable at this time. This is what makes SE:IV so great!

I'd hope to see
-a vastly improved ground combat system
-a larger combat screen
-mouse wheel support ( http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif )
-labour hours as a (non-storable) resource (but transferable!)
-supply transfer
-colapsable, moving, and cycling wormholes
-non-wormhole movement between systems
-planets orbiting stars as the months progress
-placement choices for satelites and bases around planets and moons
-orbital movement of satelites and bases during combat (speed depending on planet size and orbital height)
-"jury rigging" and "modular" components, allowing the non-retrofit addition of individual components(could then sell "modular" components, rather than whole ships. Could choose to 'jury rig' on unique components from captured ships rather than repairing or analysing the ship)

just some thoughts

[ July 10, 2002, 00:54: Message edited by: jimbob ]

[Atrocities]

What I would love to see in SEV.

The multi quadrant map idea.

Basically, you have 5 or more maps that are the current size up too 255 systems each, and each one of these 5 maps has a WP to one of the other maps. So when you enter the WP, you leave the Quadrant your in, and move to a new one.

Ground Combat.
Basically it would work just like Space Combat does now except it would take place on the surface of a planet. If you defeat the planet defenders, you capture the capital, and thus the planet.

Space Combat.
3d yes, but it would mean that no more custom ship sets could be built unless you had the software that Aaron uses to create the sets.

So I would stick with what works.

Political Improvements
Basically revamp the entire political system to include demenour tabs that can be selected to tell the AI or other player how your are feeling.

Polite - Please leave X system.
Aggitated - Please leave X system.
Angery - Leave X system.
Hotile - Get out of X system Now.

etc.

The AI would interpt the demenours and respond accordingly.

Wheel mouse support.
A Withdraw from Combat before entering combat feature.
Fog of war that looks like a star map. Keep all of the systems hidden until you explore them. You only see the systems on the quadrant map that you have explored.

The ability to set each individual races starting tech level

The ability to specifically set the number of AI controlled empires and neutral races.

More neutral races. (6 is a bit low)

[ July 10, 2002, 01:21: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

[TerranC]

I know what everyone wants:

A scenario editor!

[TerranC]

"Pirates?"

The P&N mod settles that, but I'd like it to be on the normal game. An actual use for garrisons and Light Cruisers.

"How about a larger map to explore?"

The maps are large enough as it is... if you want it to be large, anyways.

"-a vastly improved ground combat system"
"Ground Combat. Basically it would work just like Space Combat does now except it would take place on the surface of a planet. If you defeat the planet defenders, you capture the capital, and thus the planet."

You want that, go play Imperium Galatica. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
Well, one of the coolest features in IG2 is 3D combat; especially the planetary combats. Even though I don't expect 3D, I'd like to see where we have to actually design effective ground units and test them. (And give weapon platforms a whole new workload)

"-a larger combat screen"

What's larger than Full Screen?

"Space Combat. 3d yes, but it would mean that no more custom ship sets could be built unless you had the software that Aaron uses to create the sets."

Leave combat as it is now, but make the strategies more effective. Especially Priorities. Also, if you want 3D, I suggest you put that in the Combat Replay.

"-non-wormhole movement between systems"

Ugh, and turn this thing into another Stars remake? No offense to all that like stars, but movement was confusing. Warp points make it simple, and give whole new strategies.

[ July 10, 2002, 01:47: Message edited by: TerranC ]

[disabled]

Inactive Ministers and petitioners from planets (think Sim City 3000)

[Phoenix-D]

"Political Improvements
Basically revamp the entire political system to include demenour tabs that can be selected to tell the AI or other player how your are feeling.

Polite - Please leave X system.
Aggitated - Please leave X system.
Angery - Leave X system.
Hotile - Get out of X system Now"

ahh.. you can already do this. Well, to the AI anyway, but human players should be smart enough to figure it out from your message http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Phoenix-D

[mac5732]

a small request, a delete save game button on the save game screen.... would make it easier for us old timers... some more work on drones makeing them more useful and affective,

just some ideas mac

[Instar]

Id want to see a full 3d game, but well, that is a little harder to do
animated planets and stars would be very cool

[Suicide Junkie]

Nobody mentioned firing arcs? Or Shield & Armor arcs to match?

Smarter combat strategies. Programmable perhaps? Write your own strategy using pseudocode?

IF enemy.shields < 300 THEN
"Move to range 1"
"Fire shield depleters"
"Attempt capture"
ELSE
"Move to Max Range"
"Fire all weapons"
"Move to Run Away"
ENDIF

[ July 10, 2002, 04:43: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[Fyron]

Fog of war that looks like a star map. Keep all of the systems hidden until you explore them. You only see the systems on the quadrant map that you have explored.

I don't know about the races you play, but mine have invented telescopes. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Actually... I'd like to be able to "explore" systems with large telescopes and scanning arrays located in other systems. Make them have limited range, of course.

[ July 10, 2002, 06:20: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Tnarg]

Options, options, and more options. More racial characteristics, more components, more facilities, more ship sizes, more troops. Don't get me wrong though, I'm satisfied with what is continually offered for another year or so.

The ability for a race to start at different epochs. Example: primitive races (nuetrals that other races can uplift and bless with star flight)or easily subjugate.

Wolfling races that are just emerging onto the scene, that must quickly learn to adapt or be swallowed up by the bigger fish.

Advanced races that know the turf, probably have a few systems already, fighting their first interstellar wars.

Type III Galactic races, the overseares, the ones that watch over all of the minions, perhaps boosting a primitive race, wiping out a careless advanced race, preparing to move onto that next Galaxy as proposed by Attrocities.

These could all be figured out during the game set up screen. Sure the game balance is all screwed up, but isn't life in general anyways.

One Last thing that would be interesting is the addition of special items that could make one planet a valuable and strategic resource. Ex: planets that produce two to three times the normal high end planet in a given resource. Perhaps discovering a highly adapted primitive race that can quantify output by two or three fold. Something worth fighting over anyways.

Ohh, and finding derelict space craft too, would be fun. Gives that wolfing race an actual chance to quickly become superior in a game. Pehaps finding a fleet, alls one needs to do is poor in some resources and wham - insta fleet- ready to go and kick your obnoxious, overbearing, subjugating, superior next door neighbor.

[Tnarg]

I also like the idea of Imperator Fyron's telescope idea. Or a type of SETI program that gives one a bit of a heads up before one sends ships blindly out into the great void.

Telescope facilities or arrays to perhaps determine what is next door. How many planets and atmosphere types, and sizes, perhaps an indication of intillegence could be detected as is being proposed for the next generation of telescope we ourselves are working on. (Detecting specific spectrums which give clue to life). Of course the more one researches, the farther one can see. Wouldn't even have to leave your home system.

SETI facilities could pinpoint sources of intelligence and give one a beacon to stear towards or away from. Also there could be an anti-SETI program also, keeping those prying ears at bay and your blossoming empire secretly expands.

[Gil Hamilton]

"...He is smart. He will make us go faster....".

[Fyron]

What's that mean Gil? I am confused. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

[Gil Hamilton]

Reference to a STTNG Episode where this "not so smart" "Wolfish" race succeeded in getting Geordi over to their ship, only for it to be a ruse to have him improve their systems.

EDIT+ I guess a more accurate quote would be, "He is smart...He will make us strong..."

[ July 10, 2002, 08:05: Message edited by: Gil Hamilton ]

[TerranC]

Before I go to sleep...

Electronic Warfare.

Other than your sensors, sensor jammers, or your average cloaking:

-Hacking of computer systems to transfer Intel or Research points
-Comm disarray with a single ship
-No shileds; disable sensors

Kinda like Black Lance Ships in WC4.

Would be fun for hunting parties.

[Lemmy]

More internal diplomacy, for example a tax rate for your empire, maybe per system, or even per planet.
Certain laws you could pass which modify happinces, troop morale, production etc.
Ministers with different personalities, and assasinable (is that a word?), like in MOO (no, not the cow, the game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

A non-tiled combat map, let the ships go wherever there is room.
Ground combat, like there is space combat.
Precombat fase, where you can deploy your satellites/mines/bases.

Scriptable AI, like SJ said, in pseudocode for example.

Naive primitive population on planets which you could subdue, or somehow recruit to fight for you (different combat modifiers), or sell as slaves throughout your empire.

And some "famous" desires:
Components which generate research/intel points
Cloakable planets
Racial traits should be kept once an alien race is captured.
Different ("working") more usefull emmisive armor

[Taera]

Great ideas everyone. I can say i like them all, well, almost.

What i would suggest is an option to play "real politics" in which your type of government (choosable) would affect much. Example:

Dictatorship: Full control over the empire, but penalties in economy and civ. You have no ministers to play with.
Democracy: Your control is reduced, you have no direct control over parts of your empire, namely your planets, civ ships and such. You receive bonuses in various civ. parts like research and intel.

While still lacking control of several parts in the better governments you can still choose the personality of the ministers controlling each on of the planets.

What i would like to see the most is petitioners like in SC3k as Hadrian suggested. Say people living in a harsh environment would requie CIP (Climate Improvement Planet) and if you do not give them what they want the thing they will grow unhappy.
Also representatives from the captured races demanding better protection, liberty and such.

Oh yeah, if i mention that, there reay should be an option to grant complete liberty to a planet under your control creating new empires.

Event system should be created, that would enchance the game. Say you establish a colony with a colony ship transfered via a wormhole and have ~20 unexplored system separate you. The colony will lose contact and break off from you though later they just *might* join you.

Recalls me of another thing, it would be great to incarporate communication into the game, meaning that systems would requie comm centers to transfer commands from the "center" and ships going on deep space missions would requie communication vessels to go with them. Creates a whole new dimension to the game. Also non-controllable events should be created with that say if your fleet loses its communication fleet it would try to break off from its current position to nearest populated area.

And Last thing, i dont like the idea of the whole system being scanned by the first time you enter it. It would requie specialized equipment and time to scan the whole system or sending scouts to fly in the system and scout it (think starcraft exploration).

ok im done

[Unknown_Enemy]

What I do NOT want to see in SE5 :

3D
Real time

What I would like to see in SE5 or a future patch

- enhanced ground combat
- enhanced IA scripting as stated by Suicide Junkie
- rework of the curently useless drones

[Arkcon]

What I'd like to see is multiple facility sizes ... stay with me on this one.

The resupply depot should be small. The spaceport ... small or medium or big, whatever works for balance

Spaceyard? ... big
Units Only Space Yard ... small or medium

Miners, refiners and farms ... small medium and large -- each with a proportional resource production.

Now ... return to the game the ability to colonize asteroids.

Maybe a small asteroid field can only hold a small miner, or a resupply depot. Resupply at ateroids is very usefull to the AI. Everyone knows the AI can't handle black holes well -- but if there are two asteroid systems next to each other ... the AI can't cross them.

A medium asteroid file could hold the space port ... but how will you defend it? This could make asteroids more interesting.

That tiny, no atmosphere planet that only holds one facility now could be more interesting if it held a resupply base, spaceport, and a miner at 1/3 production level or do you just build an ordinary miner -- your call.

Remember, if the planets are moving from month to month -- resupply depots are much more important.

So many more ideas -- but I'll calm down for now

[Baron Munchausen]

Well, gosh. There are lots of things that people might think of as 'SE V' that could still be done in SE IV. Space monsters, for example. As far as what I expect in SE V, I can only give broad outlines because the different starting points or 'frame of reference' will influence each other and create differences that are impossible to predict.

The first simple ideas I have are to ditch the stupid attempt at a 'kewl' looking interface. We don't need a special set of mouse cursors, the default is fine. It was (and is still) a waste of MM's time to code all those custom interface elements, like the file save and load dialogs, when Windows has standard ones which work better. Deh! Go back to Windows standard interface and let people play the game in the user interface they have customized for themselves.

Gamewise, add loads more 'simulation' detail to the map. Stars should have mass and internal dynamics that determine their behavior. Star size and type should affect radiation levels in the system and the performance of solar harnessing technologies. And the climates of planets! Planets should have gravity, radiation levels, and temperature ranges as well as the present atmosphere types.

Planet usage should be more dynamic as we discussed in another thread. The same space should be used for population, facilities, and cargo space.

Population needs to be more 'true to type', keeping racial characteristics and holding to an 'attitude' towards their conquerors even after the empire they came from is completely gone.

The system map needs to grow somehow. If we have to resort to a 'windowed' system like comabt then that's what we have to do. A system ought to have a radius of at least 10 sectors. Going to a coordinate system might be better than trying to keep the little discreet squares.

Combat needs to be scaled up even further as well. The increase in damage numbers for both weapons and components allowed smaller shades of difference in combat power but ranges are still pitifully small and simple. We need to have ranges measured at 10X SE III values just like damage is.

And as we all know, the AI needs thousand different improvements. Mainly it needs a memory but it also needs to be smarter in tactical combat and in simple tasks like choosing what colonies to place in a system.

[ July 10, 2002, 16:56: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

[klausD]

In SE5 I too dont wanna have any kind of

Realtime 3D and similar teenie crap.

If anybody wants to play RTS, he should goto Imperium Galactica or MOO3 (tactical combat). He should not waste his short attention span and mouse clicking talents on a great stratetic TB game series like SE.

Klaus

PS: sorry for my bad english

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by Baron Munchausen:
The first simple ideas I have are to ditch the stupid attempt at a 'kewl' looking interface. We don't need a special set of mouse cursors, the default is fine. It was (and is still) a waste of MM's time to code all those custom interface elements, like the file save and load dialogs, when Windows has standard ones which work better. Deh! Go back to Windows standard interface and let people play the game in the user interface they have customized for themselves.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I know the UI for SEIII was quite popular with SEIII fans, but it got knocked around quite severly everywhere else. I think the SEIV interface was an effort to shed the "Spreadsheet in Space" label that 4X games in general, and Space Empires in particular had been hung with. Yes, there are problems with it, but they are errors in execution I think, not in concept. I wouldn't say going backwards is the answer.

The UI set SEIV apart from it's predecesors, for good and bad. It gave it the look of a professional product. SEIV with the SEIII interface would have pleased many SEIII fans, but it would have given SEIV the same shareware look that SEIII had.

Of course function is more important than form, playability is more important than eye candy. But looks are important when you are trying to get reviews, and expand the user base.

Geoschmo

[ July 10, 2002, 16:04: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

[Iron Giant]

Nobody mentioned firing arcs? Or Shield & Armor arcs to match?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ohhh, of all the good ideas, I like this one. I also think that the ship sizes should be *2 for each successively larger size.
Frigate 200
Destroyer 400
Light Cruser 800
Cruiser 1600

etc.

I also would like this turn based. There is pleanty of real-time 4x gaming out there, I think SE5 would fill the niche of turn based.

On the other hand... I thought that combat in Star Fleet Command was going to Rot when I found out it was going to be real time, but I was wrong, they married real-time and tactics gracefully but that is so rare its not even funny....

Any word from "offical" sources? Is SE5 a possibility????

[ July 10, 2002, 16:17: Message edited by: Iron Giant ]

[Ed Kolis]

Big ships should take up more sectors in the combat map! Like in MOO2! (And stars should be bigger than planets... say, perhaps there should be some sort of penalty for flying too close to a star...)

[mottlee]

Scanners to work on planets so you can tell IF you can KICK BUTT before you get there and loose the whole dang fleet http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[Arkcon]

Originally posted by Ed Kolis:
Big ships should take up more sectors in the combat map! Like in MOO2! (And stars should be bigger than planets... <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Likewise, the ringworld and sphereworlds should fill the center third of the solar system. We already have pictures that fill the map -- the red giant.

Planets within the orbit could be destroyed or they could continue to exist -- just orbiting with the sphere. If they're enemy planets then they're simply blockaded.

[ January 24, 2003, 21:38: Message edited by: Arkcon ]

[capnq]

I'd like to see randomized damage: instead of a fixed amount, let the listed damage be the average at that range.

Warp point and storm damage should be randomized, too. You shouldn't be able to tell the exact amount of armor you need to get through safely.

"Borderless" combat screen.

[Gandalph]

Many of the suggestions I see here would be welcome additions to this great game, however, I see many of the posters saying "like such-and-such game". I don't want to see SE V like any other game. It is the individuality of this game that sets it apart from others. If you want the play style of another game, go buy the other game and leave this one to its greatness.

[geoschmo]

Gandalph, I agree with you to a point. I think it's ok to add features that are used and liked in other games, as long as SEV also remains distinctly SE. The thing that sets SE apart from the pack of 4X games, and the thing that SEV simply must have in my mind to retain that mantle, is the customizability. It was hinted at in SE2, came to life in SEIII, and truely blossomed in SEIV. That is the one critical factor which has to be kept IMHO.

Geoschmo

[mac5732]

When you put ships on patrol in a system, they would automatically try and intercept any enemy fleet entering, this would of course be restricted to their movement allowances or you could even have several strategies for them, such as, 1 identify-do nothing, 2 intercept, 3 flee to nearest friendly in system base, etc.

just some ideas mac

[Barnacle Bill]

Diplomacy change - treaties require mutual recognition of claims, so the deal establishing the treaty has to divy up the contested systems somehow (with "share" as an available option for any particular system as part of the deal). Once the treaty is in place, whichever party claims a new system first puts it off-limits to claims by treaty partners. No colonizing in systems claimed by treaty partners. No trespassing in systems claimed by treaty partners unless you have a treaty granting access. Ideally, you could either negociate right of passage agreements on an individual basis or a general agreement (automatically granted to the stronger side in a Protectorate or Subjugation, but only to the stronger side). Military treaties would be in two levels, the first being just a pledge to go to war against the aggressor if your ally is attacked, the higher allowing the partners mutual right of passage to the entirety of each other's empires plus refueling rights.

Generally, a more EU-like diplomacy system include the very large number of independent nations (I think 208 possible in EU2). Of course, there would need to be way over 255 possible systems. I think I'd like to say up to 200 races and over 2000 systems.

Hexes instead of squares for both the system & tactical maps.

Realistic and much larger system maps, something akin to the system maps in Starfire. Asteroids should be actual belts.

A much larger tactical map, so big that a ship of the highest possible speed can run in a straight line without hitting the edge before the turn limit. If you are out of weapons range and the enemy has no ship faster than your slowest, you should be able to hit "retreat" and not play out all the tactical turns.

A solution to the missile dance. My preference is proportional movement a la Star Fleet Battles. An acceptable substitute would be the ability to give your ships "opportunity fire" orders with a range limit, a la Steel Panthers. Maybe an option to have it work either way, the former being better for single player and the later for Online MP.

An optional type of star drive that works without warp points. You would only be able to activate it from a sector at the edge of the system map. You could jump to any system within range (range limit increasing with tech) within a certain arc centered on the sector from which you depart. You would appear in the sector of your choice in the target system within an arc around the straight line between the stars. Of course, you would not see the contents of the target system before picking your entry sector, unless you already had something there. Using game set-up,you should be able to sel;ect which method (jump drive or warp points) works in your game, or maybe both if you like.

The ability to nest fleets.

[Fyron]

Asteroids should be actual belts.

Can be modded. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Check out Fyron's Quadrant Mod.

[rand029]

Seeing how SE got it's start from the pen and paper game Starfire (which is actually going digital from what I hear - though as a "quasi real time"), how about Starfire "jump engines"...
Still use warp points, but you can jump in system by 1 or 2 squares... Would make minefields actual fields, and Warp Point defense would suddenly become more interesting.

I agree with the borderless combat map, and I could go either way on the interface (though standard windows is easier to hide at work http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )

Another idea: Space Yards with multiple docks/slips/whatever. You can build multiple ships at once, but the space yard resources are divided among them. So you wouldn't have to scrap that half done Battlecruiser if you needed another escort or transport in a hurry.

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by rand029:
Another idea: Space Yards with multiple docks/slips/whatever. You can build multiple ships at once, but the space yard resources are divided among them. So you wouldn't have to scrap that half done Battlecruiser if you needed another escort or transport in a hurry.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ooo, I like this idea now. I don't want to wait for SE5. And not just for space yards, do it for planetary yards as well. You actually wouldn't need to allow multiple yards, just allow the person to move a project down in the queue without losing acculumlated work done on it.

Originally SEIV had something like this where you could move a project up and the work already done would get applied towards the new project. That was taken out because it was considered a way to cheat because you could start work on an expensive ship that you never intended to build, and then switch it at the Last minute to an expensive ships that you wanted, but didn't have the tech for when you started. This would eliminate that cause you couldn't change the design once it's in the queue, but still allow flexibility. As long as you didn't take the project completely out of the queue it could keep the work accumulated while you work on other projects that you start from scratch. Much like intel or research quese now operate.

And if you could have the excess construction left over after one ship was done to go towards the next ship in line...

Geoschmo

[ July 10, 2002, 20:31: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

[TerranC]

I don't think Space Space yards should do that; they already have low rates as it is!

But for planetary space yards... It would be very nice. Especially for massively populated ones with happiness stocked up with the latest space yard.

This way, you can keep churning out starships, and your enemy has a new important target to destroy.

[Captain Kwok]

Some items I would like to see for Space Empires V include:
</font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> 3D Map of Galaxy and increased maximum # of systems</font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Several levels of zoom for maps</font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Larger or scalable (with zoom feature) mini images for ships</font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> More types of abilities</font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Optional starting tech levels</font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Improved interface</font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Improved diplomacy
</font><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I would like the game to remain turn based and not use real time 3D engine garbage.

[Nodachi]

Smarter combat strategies. Programmable perhaps? Write your own strategy using pseudocode? <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I love this idea!! Almost infinite flexibility! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

A lot of these ideas are great but I don't want to see this game turned into a micromanagement nightmare either. Make some "improvements" optional.

I'd hate to see the game turned into a resource hog too. 3D is fine but don't go overboard, I don't want to have to rebuild (again http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ) this Frankenstein computer of mine.

I'd like to see additional and more flexible abilities for modders to exploit... er, use. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

But I think the most important thing would be not to rush the game to developement. I think that's what is killing a lot of games, rushing to get a product on the shelves rather than working to put a quality product on the shelves.

[Tnarg]

Editors, more and user friendly. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

The excisting map editor is great, but incrediably time consuming.

A couple of fellows are working on component or mod editors that are starting to make modding much more friendly to the computer illiterate types, such as me.

If perhaps one big editor where compiled so that an individual could easily create new maps, new planets, new components, facilities, ships, scenerios(so one wouldn't have to actually play the computer player to get them advanced and established while keeping everyone else at bay) ect.

Yeah, that would be nice. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Pax]

Originally posted by geoschmo:
[QUOTE]Ooo, I like this idea now. I don't want to wait for SE5. And not just for space yards, do it for planetary yards as well. You actually wouldn't need to allow multiple yards, just allow the person to move a project down in the queue without losing acculumlated work done on it.

Originally SEIV had something like this where you could move a project up and the work already done would get applied towards the new project. That was taken out because it was considered a way to cheat because you could start work on an expensive ship that you never intended to build, and then switch it at the Last minute to an expensive ships that you wanted, but didn't have the tech for when you started. This would eliminate that cause you couldn't change the design once it's in the queue, but still allow flexibility. As long as you didn't take the project completely out of the queue it could keep the work accumulated while you work on other projects that you start from scratch. Much like intel or research quese now operate.

And if you could have the excess construction left over after one ship was done to go towards the next ship in line...

Geoschmo<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Better yet: change the Construction Queue interface to mirror the Research and Intelligence Project queues. Instead of a list of Research Topics, you get a listign of your current ship / base designs, or facilities, or units. Same 12 slots, the option to repeat build projects, and the option to divide construction capacity evenly.

Possibly even allow only 4 build projects for Shipyard I's, 8 for Shipyard II's, and all 12 for Shipyard III's. (maybe 8, 12, and 16 for the Emporal Shipyard I, II, and III respectively ... ?).

[lfoater]

SE5

NO 3D, NO REALTIME

Would like to see

Game startup 0ptions:

Ability to scramble Race/characteristics ie: When you meet the Norak, early on you know its missles, missles, missles and plan accordingly.
Darleks you know intell is coming, It would be interesting to not always know what the race you met was like.

Trade: It would be nice to have something for transports to carry back to the home system. Dilithium chrystals, EEEE spice, stuff like that.

Research: Occasional blind alley research, Physics doesn't always lead to PPB, maybe its astrophyiscs or stellar harnessing. Have it as a variable if this option selected. It would make research more interesting.

[Psychic 5]

Nice ideas, but I think there are more key features:

- Citizens that eat and can starve.
- Governments, please: different types of politics, economy, religion, etc. that can be changed during the game (revolution problems and anarchy included). Political factions and the like.
- Allied victory.
- Retreating from combat (with the possibility of being caught depending on speed and crew experience).
- A form of currency along with the 3 resources.
- A peace treaty.

Facilities, technologies... all can be done editing txts. I think the above is more important.

greetings

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[DirectorTsaarx]

I agree with:
- changing the squares to hexes (in all map levels)
- adding turning radius (and maybe firing arcs)
- making asteroids colonizable again
- components that generate resources
- jump engines (or jump reactor, or something); along with at least an option (or racial ability) to have a jump-capable ship carry other ships through the warp point

I'd also like to see more uses for sensors; maybe special sensor components that can improve offense/defense for an entire fleet (or even just ships within a given radius); sensors that can disrupt (or enhance) targetting systems on seekers; and require special sensors to look at a ship's design during combat. That Last could be tricky, since it should also include the option to "fill in" information as the ship performs certain functions (firing a weapon is a pretty obvious indicator that the weapon exists & what Version/mount it's using).

I'd like to see the ability to tow ships/bases around the map (using a special "tug" hull, maybe).

Along with diplomatic options mentioned by others, add options to have races get angry about the use of certain weapons (star destroyers, black hole generators, etc.), angry toward races that "glass" planets, angry at particular races just because of history/racial abilities/demeanor/culture; have races get happy towards races that destroy black holes/storms/nebulas or create stars/planets.

Improve the AI so it actually takes advantage of training facilities, remote mining and ring/sphereworld generators. (I think this is more hardcoding than AI scripting, since it's easy to mod the AI to build the above items, just hard to make the AI use them effectively).

Components that allow for population growth, and have that population affect the efficiency of components that generate resources (and affect efficiency of space-borne shipyards).

Since SE4 already requires spaceports AND a path back to the rest of the empire to make generated resources available to the empire, add two things: first, the ability to store those generated resources locally and either transfer manually (freighters) or automatically once a spaceport/path is available. Second, add a requirement for at least one space station or colony in all intervening systems for a "path" to be established. In other words, you'd have to build a space station in a nebula system in order to gain resources from the colonies on the other side of that nebula. This would make black hole systems a problem for everyone, not just the AI...

[Tnarg]

Weapons that have an area effect damage. Something to break up tight formations, screw up fighter swarms, and just plain wreak havoc. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

- Allied victory.

This is exactly the same as the "Peace for 0.1 years" victory condition.
It requires that all empires have met and have trade alliance or better with every other race.

[Will]

Ok, a lot of what I would like to see in a possible attempt at SEV has already been said. So, to keep from being a broken record, I'm going to attempt to rate them on likelyhood.

Likely:</font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Expanded population properties - populations have specific environmental tolerances, abilities, attitudes, etc., that remain with them throughout the game. No more getting a different empire's population, which automatically becomes clones of your own population that breathes different air. Some attributes of population: size (space-faring mice, or perhaps elephants?), strength (one elephant can drag a tree... how many mice does it take?), *I can't think of any others at the moment, but you get the idea*.</font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">More Detailed Planetary Stats - related to the one above. Planets should have varying amounts of space (with population, cargo, and facilities taking up the same space), gravity (with certain populations only tolerating a specific range of gravity), atmospheric gas DENSITY (a population might need X density of methane, but anything more than Y density of oxygen is poisonous, and total density has to be more than Z, etc), temperature, radiation or lack thereof, planetary volatility (think earthquakes, storms, volcanoes, etc.).</font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No limit on total empires - I'm not saying allow 100 empires on game startup (although some might want to do that for one insane reason or another). Currently, if through the course of a game, the total number of empires that ever existed reaches 20, no more may come into existance. Change the setup of empires to be contained in a linked list, instead of what now appears to be an array. Perhaps have an option for a completely new AI to pop up around turn 150 in some forgotten corner of the quadrant.</font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Randomness to damage - As it is now, weapons either have a direct hit, or a direct miss. I would just once like to see that APB cause 17kT damage instead of 30kT, because of a slight targeting mistake. Have the ability for components to be disabled (well, you slagged the torpedo tubes pretty good, but you didn't destroy that Last 1kT, so it can magically shoot at you still), with different components having differing amounts of tolerance to damage. Also, differing types of damage, i.e., flinging a big chunk up depleted uranium at high velocities is going to cause quite a different type of damage than, say, a beam-type weapon, or an explosion. Have shields work on a % basis... A DUC pellet comes flying in, shields are weakened a little, and take some damage away from the impact. A beam is partially blocked, but some gets through, etc. The different damage types, and % defense would actually probably be in this next section, though...

Hey, it could happen:</font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seperate AI engine - Whether it be a more complex scripting thing (more work for Aaron, to make an interpreter for it), or somehow using outside programs/DLLs, have the ability to directly manipulate the AI. One AI in a certain situation could think it's in "Infrastructure" phase, and another in the same situation could think it's in "Attack" phase. One could have this pattern of movement, another could have that... It would be nice to completely model the AI behaviour, but I don't think it would be done. Definitely more likely for a combat-only than for the rest of the game.</font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Coordinate system for maps - this would be an awesome improvement to the current grid system. However, I don't think it's too likely to happen. For one, this was requested a lot for SEIV (along with hex-grids, if it had to be grids), and it didn't happen there. When you think about it, it's just a whole lot easier to make a grid system than a coordinate system (or a hex-grid).</font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newtonian Movement - the coordinate system would be made just that much better if ships, units, etc. had inertia. Coordinates and inertia, I think, would be a possibility to SEV. Add in gravity, and it gets really iffy... but that would be really cool. If all of that's put in, it only makes sense to have stellar bodies orbit. But I know how much work it would have to be to create a system like that, and I'm quite content with Q-N movement at the moment http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

WOW! That'd be neat, but it's not going to happen http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif </font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Firing Arcs - coordinates are pretty much a prerequisite for this to work, and I've already said I'm not counting on coordinate-based maps when/if SEV is released. It would be very cool to have firing arcs, but there's the extra work needed to make such a system, and the problem of creating an even bigger learning curve for the game; for both humans and AI.</font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">3-D anything - I just don't see this happening. It's gotta be hard enough to work it in just two dimensions, and then you have to figure out a way to present it. Aaron seems to be limited to two dimensions, from looking at all his work thus far.

And, just some other things that I'm not going to rate/comment on, and would like:</font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Area effect damage</font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Simultaneous construction projects</font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Starting tech levels (ok, small comment; perhaps just allow X amount of research points that are allocated to various areas BEFORE 2400.0, AKA first turn. Instead of X tech levels)

Things that are just yuck:</font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Real-Time (difficult to pull off correctly, and "correctly" varies greatly from person to person)</font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Government modifiers (this should be handled with the individual races, IMHO. It would basically be another "Culture modifier", and anything beyond that is way too drastic).</font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Tactical Ground Combat (I always thought that this would basically be either a seperate game within the game, or completely useless, there is no real happy medium)

I've missed quite a few things, but I like most of the ideas in this thread, so that gives a general idea http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Phoenix-D]

"More Detailed Planetary Stats - related to the one above. Planets should have varying amounts of space (with population, cargo, and facilities taking up the same space), gravity (with certain populations only tolerating a specific range of gravity), atmospheric gas DENSITY (a population might need X density of methane, but anything more than Y density of oxygen is poisonous, and total density has to be more than Z, etc), temperature, radiation or lack thereof, planetary volatility (think earthquakes, storms, volcanoes, etc.)."

Why. Can we say "micromanagement HELL?"

Newtonian movement and gravity: I know of very few *sims* that even try, and these guys only have to deal with a few ships at a time. SE needs to deal with hundreds (and don't even suggest dropping the scale just for this..)

"Coordinate system for maps - this would be an awesome improvement to the current grid system. However, I don't think it's too likely to happen. For one, this was requested a lot for SEIV (along with hex-grids, if it had to be grids), and it didn't happen there. When you think about it, it's just a whole lot easier to make a grid system than a coordinate system (or a hex-grid)."

How is this any different than what we have now? A grid system is just a slightly modifed cordinate system with low grain (i.e. you don't get 1.45352653, just 1)

Phoenix-D

[ July 12, 2002, 05:39: Message edited by: Phoenix-D ]

[Will]

It wouldn't be micromanagement hell if the game told you what populations could live there. Could have a system level icon for your own population like there is now. Green star means your population can live there comfortably. Red star means not-so-comfortably. When examining the planet, it can show habitability Ratings for each known species. Could make a switch somewhere that changes the system-level icons to be for a population other than your own. More detail doesn't always mean more micro-management http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

The coordinates don't need to be taken to extreme numbers of decimals. A simple map having a 130.0x130.0 system would be fine (and still quite an improvement over the current 13x13). Newtonian movement wouldn't be feasible with the grid now used in SEIV, it would be far too choppy. There would still be a "grid" for combat purposes, so ships don't have to be at the exact coordinates for combat, just within a certain block.

[Mephisto]

IMHO Phoenix-D is right about the MMH. I don't see why adding lots of variables to the planets will make it any more interesting. It is just more moving around people for the best location.
A script language for the AI would be just neat and variable damage/damage absorption for different types of incoming damage would be cool. Further it would open a great deal of variety to the weapons and it would be much harder to build/find the "perfect" weapon.

[Zarix]

SE5 might have some kind of 3d. As we can see in "Call for Artist" thread Malfador is looking for 3d artists.

A lot of little features could make the game more realistic but they have some problems. Besides micro management they would increase the size of save game files. Already in multiplayer games the files can be pretty big.

[Suicide Junkie]

IMHO Phoenix-D is right about the MMH. I don't see why adding lots of variables to the planets will make it any more interesting. It is just more moving around people for the best location.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think the important part of this idea it the fact that it would allow for one race's terraforming to become another race's environmental catastrophe.

If we had separate variables for gravity, radiation, temperature, and various atmospheric gasses, it wouldn't be any more complicated than it is now.

You'd just build a terraforming facility, and each year it would tweak each variable 1% towards your race's ideal settings.
Add in a small, natural, unterraforming factor, so that planets will return to their natural state if left alone, (and also limiting the terraformer's maximum conditions change as it fights mother nature)

A Rage world with a Terraformer (vaccuum breather machine race) would start reducing the pressure of all the different gas types, shift gravity and temperature to average values, and reduce radiation.
A Terran world with a Terraformer would shift gravity towards 1g, temperature to 25 degrees C, and shift radiation towards the low end, while Increasing oxygen pressure and decreasing all others.
It would all be automatic when you build the facility, just like atmosphere modders now.

Planet Images would change whenever a new gas takes over the top concentration (or when the total pressure drops to a certain value).

Your planets would fall into a few categories:
- Very nice planets, naturally fit for your race.
- Terraformable planets
- Poor worlds that will always require a dome (facility).
- Enemy-held worlds that are very nice.
- Enemy-held worlds that were very nice until they were terraformed by aliens.
- Enemy-held worlds that were marginal before being terraformed even worse by aliens.
- Enemy-held worlds that will never be livable by your race.

[Zarix]

SJ, that is a pretty good idea. With one change it would be nearly perfect. The terraforming facility should of course change the conditions to optimal by default. But there should be also possibility to change conditions to whatever one wants.

[ July 12, 2002, 14:39: Message edited by: Zarix ]

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by Zarix:
SJ, that is a pretty good idea. With one chance it would be nearly perfect. The terraforming facility should of course change the conditions to optimal by default. But there should be also possibility to change conditions to whatever one wants.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No, you would want it to change the conditions to whatever is ideal for the population currently on the planet. If that's not optimal, then you don't want optimal. That's the point.

I have a question though. Not that it matters for game play or anything, and I won't use the "R" word, but how exactly would terraformers change the gravity of the planet? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Geoschmo

[Zarix]

Originally posted by geoschmo:
No, you would want it to change the conditions to whatever is ideal for the population currently on the planet. If that's not optimal, then you don't want optimal. That's the point..<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I meant that when you build the facility, it starts changing the planet so that the people living there become happy. Then if the player decides that those people are annoying, the player could increase the temperature and suck the air out making some vacuum-packed beef.


I have a question though. Not that it matters for game play or anything, and I won't use the "R" word, but how exactly would terraformers change the gravity of the planet?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That is quite simple. To decrease the gravity they have to put springs in every shoe on the planet. When increasing it they replace the springs with heavy weights. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by Zarix:
I meant that when you build the facility, it starts changing the planet so that the people living there become happy. Then if the player decides that those people are annoying, the player could increase the temperature and suck the air out making some vacuum-packed beef.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oh. ROFL! I didn't realize you were going for the "Evil Overlord" kind of thing there. There are more efficent ways of dealing with annoying populations, but I guess the inefficency is where the fun is. The fact that you would go to so much trouble to make their lives miserable shows what a cruel, heartless bastard you can be if you are shown the proper "respect". I LIKE it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

EDIT: Along with these lines, give us the ability to grant independance to a colony. Then you can turn around and glass it the next turn. MUUUHAHAHAHA! You can do the same thing now by gifting it to another race, but the other race has to accept the gift, then you run the risk of them getting upset at you for glassing the colony, and you don't get the satisfaction of the "Skull and Bones" log message telling you that you totally wiped that new empire out. Hehehehe, that would be so fun!

Geo

[ July 12, 2002, 15:28: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

[Growltigga]

Geo, genocide is not acceptable in any social circle I am aware of. Evil Overlord or not, you should really try and curb these tendencies toward the mass slaughter of innocents.. after all, the good lord did say that one should turn the other cheek and not do unto others as you would not like done unto yourself and let's face it, you wouldn't be too chuffed to find out you were the target of an evil despotic maniac with a predelection for extreme violence and an appalling tendency to go "MUAAUUAAUAUAUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH"

You probably will be stroking small white persian cats next

[Zarix]

New victory condition for SE5: Hell

To win the game you have to transport at least 10M of each race in the game to a planet and terraform that planet to barely liveable to all those races.

[geoschmo]

Ah yes, but when you are the all powerful ruler of all that you survey, whether your predilictions are socially acceptable is of no concern. Societal mores only exsist to assist in keeping the masses in line with the arbitrary wishes of their Emporer. Or did you miss that day in "Despot 101"?

You haven't lived until you have had a quiet candelight dinner with the concubine of your choice sitting on the veranda watching the light show created by millions of rioting Xiati being jettisoned from your transports and reentering the atmposphere. It's fantastic! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Geo

[Baron Munchausen]

Micromanagement is supposed to be reduced by computers, not increased. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif If you have micromanagment problems with a 4X game it's not designed properly, and I don't mean that the simulation elements are out of place. More detail is good. It makes the game fun. All we have to do it design the game properly to have the detail without forcing us to work on it constantly. We can have technologies to cope with planet gravity, temperature, radiation, and even atmosphere type, without micromanagement hell. There can be ONE facility type for each and even combined facilities at higher techs, that automatically adjust the planet towards the ideal conditions for the population. Issue the order for the building of the facility or facilities once. Authorize upgrades globally when a new level of technology is discovered. What's the big deal?

I think detailed planetary conditions are essential to a good 4X game and I hope even SE IV will add something besides this moronic 'conditions' variable before it's done. We could have radiation levels, for example.

That and more detailed population abilities, with better retention of those abilities when captured/conquered, would make a huge difference in the fun level of the game. Also, more detail in mass population management. Populations ought to have persistent 'attitudes' towards each other, and your empire as a whole ought to have a defined 'central government' somewhere that can be destroyed or captured. A 'Seat of government' ought to be either a facility or a component so you can be paranoid like the Minbari and keep your government hidden in a ship somewhere. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

More detail in other non-combat aspects of the game would be great, too. Stars ought to have internal dynamics and 'evolve' a little bit over the course of the game. Star conditions ought to affect both planets and stellar harnessing techs. Storms ought to appear and disappear, not just sit there like a type of planet. Comets ought to swing in and back out from their stars. When will comets be implemented, I wonder??? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

As far as ship features and combat features, yeah, we desperately need some 'randomness' to damage, and area effect weapons. At the very least we need the option to have collateral damage. It would not be that hard to have a check made on for adjacent ships when a ship blows up and allocation of a little damage. If there is a settable 'percent' for collateral damage in the config files, you can set it to zero if you don't want it.

I've been asking MM to implement different 'levels' of armor most recently. I think he could do it for SE IV if he wanted to. There would be levels of armor 'density' just like there are currently levels of cloaking, and then different levels of armor skipping just like there are levels of sensors. 'Skips Armor 1' would skip normal armor (the default 'titanium' stuff) but not 'Armor 2'. You could have an elaborate system of armor and armor-piercing technology then, with something like 'Neutronium' at the top being impenetrable. (level 9? something like that)

Of course, right now I'd be happy if Emissive Armor worked. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif It still doesn't stop any damag at all if the damage total is over the emissive ating...

[ July 12, 2002, 17:10: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

[Baron Munchausen]

Originally posted by geoschmo:
Ah yes, but when you are the all powerful ruler of all that you survey, whether your predilictions are socially acceptable is of no concern. Societal mores only exsist to assist in keeping the masses in line with the arbitrary wishes of their Emporer. Or did you miss that day in "Despot 101"?

You haven't lived until you have had a quiet candelight dinner with the concubine of your choice sitting on the veranda watching the light show created by millions of rioting Xiati being jettisoned from your transports and reentering the atmposphere. It's fantastic! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Geo<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">LOL LOL LOL LOL...

Yep, this is what it's all about. The fantasy of absolute power. And detail creates a better illusion of power. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Growltigga]

Geo, I take back all the nice things I ever said about you, you really are a horrible nasty mean minded person.......

I shall make sure you are first up against the wall when the revolution comes.....

MWAAA HAAHAAHHAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Arkcon]

God I love reading this thread.

Okay, long time back someone suggested supplies be divided into two types (much like SE4 divied SE3's construction resource into Minerals, Organics, and Radioactives)

The two types of supplies are energy and ordinance (some military genius on this board gave me that word -- I try to insert it into everyday conversation as often as I can http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Different components use different amouts of each, for example:
engines - lots of energy, a little ordinance

crew and life support - tiny amt of energy, a small amt of ordinance (food, atmosphere,reading lights)

anti proton beams - lots of energy, tiny amt of ordinance

capital ship missile, DUC, PD cannon - tiny amt of enery, lots of ordinance

Solar collectors and ramscoops may restore your energy storage containers, or perhaps advanced engines regenerate supplies when the ship isn't moving, but only advanced technology can create ordinance out of thin air (trek replicators)

So now your big bad missile ship or your inexpensive, yet quite powerful DUC5 are not so useful if you're very far from home -- it will be difficult to carry enough ordinace on-board or in a supply ship in the fleet

Of course, even energy weapons will need your ship to have some storage.

Hey, SE4 is very different from SE3. SE5 should be totally wierd by our current viewpoint. Face it, MM is working on Dungeon Odyssey and bug-fixing/minor code change for SE4. SE5 is probably a couple of years away

[ July 12, 2002, 17:06: Message edited by: Arkcon ]

[Baron Munchausen]

Arkcon, that was me that suggested ordinance. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Weapon components could have an ordinance storage ability and you would only get ordinance from resupply depots or ships bringing it from resupply depots. No 'build missiles in space with solar energy' stunts! But I think the same thing could be done even more simply. Just have weapons that use actual physical amunition track their own amunition. A missile launcher should have a number that is decremented every time you fire. When it hits zero, no more shots. Now you have to go back to a resupply depot to reload. I think MM could implement that even in SE IV. Now, some people might get angry at not being able to 'move ammunition around' between components of the same type outside of combat, and implementing that might be difficult. But other than that one issue I think it would be fairly simple to do.

Note that I suggested some weapons might use both energy and ordinance, like torpedos. In Star Fleet Battles, at least, you do 'charge' a torpedo. But most would be one or the other.

[ July 12, 2002, 17:24: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

[geoschmo]

I kind of like this energy/ordinance idea. It adds some detail, without too much detail. Running out of ordinance has obvious implications as far as missles and projectile weapons. What would be the implications for the ship as a whole if it used up all it's ordinance and still had energy? Would it still be able to move, just not shoot, except for energy weapons? You have emgines and energy weapons using a "tiny" amount of ordinance. What is this? Spare parts maybe? Would a complete lack of ordinance then cause engines to not function?

Geo

[Arkcon]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Baron Munchausen:
Arkcon, that we me that suggested ordinance. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I've been lurking awhile, I recognize the lion by the print of his paw

But I think the same thing could be done even more simply. Just have weapons that use actual physical amunition track their own amunition.

This would be simpler.

I think MM could implement that even in SE IV. Now, some people might get angry at not being able to 'move ammunition around' between

Now hold on there Tex, this is a big change in tactics for everyone -- MM might want to save this for a new Version so people don't get ticked off. I don't think it's worth MM's time to alter the code, and not make it the default -- that is only to be done in mods or by game setup switch, or maybe it is? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

[geoschmo]

Actually Baron, if you "grey" the ammunition thing a bit it could work. Don't get particular on missle, or DUC ammo. Just make all weapons use the generic ammo. Then you could have ammo storage compartments, and ships in a fleet could share ammo the way ships share supply now. Maybe add an ability to create ammo at the cost of supplies, for the inevitable Trek mod replicators, but I those should be used sparingly if at all.

Would you have energy wepons use ammo, or standard supplies?

Geoschmo

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by Arkcon:
Now hold on there Tex, this is a big change in tactics for everyone -- MM might want to save this for a new Version so people don't get ticked off. I don't think it's worth MM's time to alter the code, and not make it the default -- that is only to be done in mods or by game setup switch, or maybe it is? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">He could very easily add an optional "uses ammo" attribute that would not be in the stock game, but allow modders to change components to it if they wanted. One modder might want to make DUCS use ammo only and no supplies, while another might want some of both. But the stock game could have it use only supply.

As far as tracking ammo level, it would be in the code whether or not the particular mod was taking advantage of it. He could either just have it display a bar for ammo that was ignored, or maybe have a settings.txt entry to state whether ammo is to be used or not in the mod. It's doable, but it would be fairly complex.

And btw, if you are ever in dubt about who might have suggested something but you can't quite remember, it's a good bet it was Baron. He is a quite prolific "idea man". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Geoschmo

[Baron Munchausen]

Originally posted by geoschmo:
Actually Baron, if you "grey" the ammunition thing a bit it could work. Don't get particular on missle, or DUC ammo. Just make all weapons use the generic ammo. Then you could have ammo storage compartments, and ships in a fleet could share ammo the way ships share supply now. Maybe add an ability to create ammo at the cost of supplies, for the inevitable Trek mod replicators, but I those should be used sparingly if at all.

Would you have energy wepons use ammo, or standard supplies?

Geoschmo<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">As I edited into the previous post, only some weapons would use 'both' energy and ordinance in my original idea. The advantage of energy weapons is just that they don't need 'special' amunition but use just the ship's energy reserves. With a clear limit on the number of 'shots' you could give seekers a much better advantage in total damage inflicted.

What got me thinking of 'counting' shots though, was that missiles ought to be able to have different types of warheads. If they have different types then you'd have to be able to keep count of how many of each type you had. I guess you'd do that by using different components and just refitting a ship with a different missile component when you wanted to change it. Keeping track of individual missiles in missile magazines could be headed for that 'micromanagement hell' thing again. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Although if you really want this you can do it with drones.

[Barnacle Bill]

Starfire, at the height of its micromanagement (3rd Edition ISF rules before SM2), made you actually build different types of missiles, and store them in magazines on your ships, and track them getting used up in combat. It was rather like drones in SEIV now.

[Andrés]

Then you could have ammo storage compartments, and ships in a fleet could share ammo the way ships share supply now.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What you like how ships share supplies now???
I think that the ability to transfer supplies.
Maybe keep the auto-share in fleets, to avoid micro some managing. But I want to have a large transport go to the fleet carrying ammo and other supplies nad then GO BACK to the depots to pick up more without carring back a large portion of what it brought.

I also like the one type of ammo for every weapon and even or even more than one. Perhaps you can research better shells, or missiles for the cannon or missile tube you already have.

And also the idea of having supply generation have a cost and use this cost to replace current manteinance cost. A ship could be expensive to build but cheap to mantain or viceversa.

[ July 12, 2002, 23:19: Message edited by: Andr&eacutes Lescano ]

[Pax]

Originally posted by geoschmo:
I kind of like this energy/ordinance idea. It adds some detail, without too much detail. Running out of ordinance has obvious implications as far as missles and projectile weapons. What would be the implications for the ship as a whole if it used up all it's ordinance and still had energy? Would it still be able to move, just not shoot, except for energy weapons? You have engines and energy weapons using a "tiny" amount of ordinance. What is this? Spare parts maybe? Would a complete lack of ordinance then cause engines to not function?

Geo<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Take the idea of splitting supplies into Energy and Ordinance one step further -- perhaps repairing damaged components takes from the generic pool of Ordinance (said now also representing spare parts, as well as just bullets*) ... ? Might make establishing forward -bases- more important, especially in High tech games (instead of just slappign a Repair Bay III on every warship design, heh).

It would also help if SE5 tracked partial damage from one turn to the next -- then, lack of Ordinance-supplies could cause slow, progressive damage to all components that have to go without (in reverse order to your repair priorities, IOW, whatever you thinkis most important to fix, will be the Last thing to wear out for lack fo spare parts). So, no, your engines wouldn't stop working because you lacked spare parts ... but they will eventually break if you don't resupply the ship soon.

An increased need for spare parts based on higher and higher technology base could also provide a reason for building ships with "obsolete" technology -- you may be able to build better, but the "old-tech" stuff is FAR easier to keep in good repair "nowadays" ...

You'd also want to consider splitting the Supply storage component into "Magazine" and "Batteries" components. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[TerranC]

I thought we already talked about Ordinance in that Micro/Macrodrone thread.

[capnq]

And I thought the Last time it was discussed, somebody pointed out the difference between ordnance ( = military ammunition) and ordinance ( = governmental law).

[Will]

Originally posted by capnq:
And I thought the Last time it was discussed, somebody pointed out the difference between ordnance ( = military ammunition) and ordinance ( = governmental law).<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hey, who needs WMGs when you have red tape? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Arkcon]

Originally posted by capnq:
And I thought the Last time it was discussed, somebody pointed out the difference between ordnance ( = military ammunition) and ordinance ( = governmental law).<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yikes http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif Sorry 'bout that guys -- shoulda checked the dictionary before typing. Is military ammunition pronounced ORD-NANCE or is it still pronounced ORD-IN-ANCE despite the spelling?

[Arkcon]

Okay, under the heading of Space Empires 5 -- that is, new code changes that alter the game from SE4 --&gt; SE5 the same way game play was altered from SE3 --&gt; SE4.

In SE4 we have asteroids which are convertible to planets of random type and atmosphere. How about in SE5 we have rocky asteroid fields, icy cometary debris(is that what's meant by ort clouds?) and storms made mostly of ionized gasses.

We would have individual components for condensing each into planets -- asteroids to rock, comets to ice, storms to gas giants. So you know what you're going to get, and what not to bother with.

Under the heading of Oh No, how about a switch to allow different planet types to have significantly different relative amounts of resources: rock planets are mineral rich, ice planets have lots of extractable organic building blocks frozen in them, gas giants are very rich in radioactives, but each type would be lacking in the others.

The result would be that people would have to remote mine, and defend their remote miners or trade with each other heavily. If by chance a gas giant race found one of the rare gas giants that was 80 % minerals -- they would have to hold that planet at all costs if they wanted to build ships at all. This would be cruel to the newbies, but some experts would like the challenge of overcoming the handicap.

Oh, and lets lose this asteroids with 200%+ resources. Maybe it's needed for remote mining to be usefull, but when it becomes a planet, re-roll the stats or decrement them by some amount. I don't see why we need this at all -- no one seems to have jumped on re-writing the AI to take advantage of this. Maybe remote mining should produce more or decrease the value less rapidly instead.

[ July 13, 2002, 13:34: Message edited by: Arkcon ]

[Pax]

Originally posted by Arkcon:
Okay, under the heading of Space Empires 5 -- that is, new code changes that alter the game from SE4 --&gt; SE5 the same way game play was altered from SE3 --&gt; SE4.

In SE4 we have asteroids which are convertible to planets of random type and atmosphere. How about in SE5 we have rocky asteroid fields, icy cometary debris(is that what's meant by ort clouds?) and storms made mostly of ionized gasses.

We would have individual components for condensing each into planets -- asteroids to rock, comets to ice, storms to gas giants. So you know what you're going to get, and what not to bother with.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I like that idea, actually. And frankly, any planet you -make-, should have your own atmosphere ... after all, if you breathe Hydrogen, why would you BOTHER making an Oxygen-atmosphere world ... ?

And I'd like to see an expanded range of atmosphere types. 8)

Under the heading of Oh No, how about a switch to allow different planet types to have significantly different relative amounts of resources: rock planets are mineral rich, ice planets have lots of extractable organic building blocks frozen in them, gas giants are very rich in radioactives, but each type would be lacking in the others.

The result would be that people would have to remote mine, and defend their remote miners or trade with each other heavily. If by chance a gas giant race found one of the rare gas giants that was 80 % minerals -- they would have to hold that planet at all costs if they wanted to build ships at all. This would be cruel to the newbies, but some experts would like the challenge of overcoming the handicap.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">A good way to do this is, not to make (say) all Gas Giants poor in minerals, period. Make them poorer in minerals than in radioactives. The maximums are now, what, 250%/250%/250% ... ? Change it to be 150%/150%/300% for gas giants, 150%/300%/150% for Ice worlds, and 300%/150%/150% for Rock worlds. That -would- be entertaining, IMO.

Oh, and lets lose this asteroids with 200%+ resources. Maybe it's needed for remote mining to be usefull, but when it becomes a planet, re-roll the stats or decrement them by some amount. I don't see why we need this at all -- no one seems to have jumped on re-writing the AI to take advantage of this. Maybe remote mining should produce more or decrease the value less rapidly instead.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, 200% resources for asteroids isn't bad. If we go with Rock planets having a maximum of 300%/150%/150%, then rocky asteroids should have the same; after all, how can you build a 200%-mineral planet, out of 2%-mineral asteroids ... ? Besides, with the possibility of again being able to colonise asteroids ... it might be possible also, for Asteroids to be your HOME PLANET TYPE. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Spuzzum]

Originally posted by Arkcon:
Yikes http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif Sorry 'bout that guys -- shoulda checked the dictionary before typing. Is military ammunition pronounced ORD-NANCE or is it still pronounced ORD-IN-ANCE despite the spelling?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It's pronounced ord-nance as it's spelled. An unwieldy word, really -- following a consonant like "rd" with another consonant is bound to cause trouble. =)

[Phoenix-D]

Here's a few:

Sensors- change these to have a range. Ideally the scanning power would drop off at range- say at 0 squares you could see through level 3 cloak, 1 square level 2, etc.

Also, I'd love to see a difference between Stealth and Cloak. Cloak could work like we have now; Stealth should be always-on and not interfere with the ship's actions or need supply (stealth would, of course, be easier to spot)

Phoenix-D

[Baron Munchausen]

Atmosphere type: Logically, atmosphere depends on the composition of the planet. The gases have to come from somewhere, and they usually come from inside the planet, although lif eon the surface can alter them as has happened with earth. We'd be a methane or carbon dioxide world without life freeing oxygen.

So, also logically, a planet ought to drift back towards its original atmosphere type when the terraforming input is removed.

Planet value: It makes sense for minerals and radioactives to be less accessible when asteroids are condensed into a solid planet than when free floating in space. It also makes sense for the mineral and radiactive value of planets to go UP when they are smashed into asteroids and the material is more accessible. Where is the value coming from when 'value improvement plants' are used after all?

It'd be cool if an AI could be taught to use remote mining, and then stellar manipulations to destroy planets it can't use so it can remote mine them. You could have some interesting conflicts with a 'ruthless' race that wants to smash planets it cannot use for mineral extraction while you want to live on them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Scanning and range: Yes, if the system map is expanded to at least a radius of 10, or we go to a coordinate system, then scanning ought to have a real range and this 'full knowledge' of a system just because you have one ship or unit there could end.

[ July 13, 2002, 23:12: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

[Mephisto]

I still don't see why you all want to split the "conditions" field into different variables like gravity and radiation only to manipulate all the variables again with one facility. I do however think it would be nice to have the "conditions" field related to a race, not to all races.
The "ammo" thing would be nice IMHO and I have thought about it myself some time ago. I think "ammo" or better "military stuff" (small weapons, personnel, ship weapons...) could be the 4th resource, but could not be harvested but must be produced with the other resources. It would be stored like all the other resources and distributed over the resupply bases. Further, the actually demand for "military stuff" should exceed the possible production in a large war so that you are forced to think about building new ships or resupply your fleets. Further, an ally could actually help you in a war with delivering supplies and would not be forced to enter the war (like the US supported England in both WW). A superpower could easily fight a war through its minions this way without ever firing a single shoot itself.

[Will]

Originally posted by [K126]Mephisto:
I still don't see why you all want to split the "conditions" field into different variables like gravity and radiation only to manipulate all the variables again with one facility. I do however think it would be nice to have the "conditions" field related to a race, not to all races.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, conditions could be made so that each planet had a different condition for each race... but it just seems easier to me if there are a finite number of condition variables that can be compared to the different races, rather than arbitrarily assigning different conditions for each of the different races. In larger games, this could mean keeping only 5-10 variables per planet instead of 20 (if the 20-race limit stays). It also means it'd be a lot easier to introduce a new race in mid-game, if that would be supported.

Manipulating all the variables with one facility would be a very high-tech thing. Right now, humans would be analogous to a very low tech race is SEIV. The terraforming that we're capable of right now would be able to change atmosphere composition very slowly, and temperature. A race later on could change radiation levels perhaps, and atmosphere/temperature more quickly. So, closer to endgame, there could be an all-in-one facility, but for the rest of it they would probably be split into multiple facilities (probably, because someone could always mod it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ).

[Captain Kwok]

In regards to planets I would like to see some of the following details added or expanded:
</font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Increased # of atmosphere types</font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Gravity</font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Conditions (Radiation/Climate etc)</font> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Value depending on planet type/distance from star
</font><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The fewer planet variables matching a race's variables would result in the planet producing a very poor colony or none at all.
In regards to ammo, I rather not have to worry about that. However, I think adding food for the population or a power source for planetary facilities might be nice.

[Arkcon]

A {bump} for David Gervais and others interested in Space Empires 5

[EDIT]
I didn't even notice I went from Second Louie to First. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Well, that'll happen with all these fluff Posts of mine

[ January 24, 2003, 21:40: Message edited by: Arkcon ]

[David E. Gervais]

Thanks for bumping this thread, I'm sure Aaron will apreiciate the bump too!

Cheers!

[Rambie]

I'd like to see Armor and Sensors mean more in SE5. Battle Armor would continue past Level 3, it should be able to absorb about as much damage as shields do.

Basically, better sensors/crew skill would make for better sensor ranges. There would be two sensor ranges: Operational and Effective. Operational range is how SE4 works now, except cloaked ships would have a "to see" chance based on the level of cloak, proximity of the ships in question, size of the cloaked ship, and the on-board sensors/crew skill level.

Effective range is the next level down. You'd get the approximate size of any planets and a sensor fix, based on proximity and size of the ship(s) that were not "cloaked." Asteroid fields would be hidden at this level but you'd see Storms but not their type.

This could also bring in a better "fog of war" type situation. When planets, asteroids, storms, etc have been scanned, the type, size, value, atmosphere, and owner would be on file, but would only be updated when scanned again.

[Q]

For me the two most important points I would like to see in SE V are an improved AI and increased modability of the game. The possibilities to mod SE IV are great (especially compared to SE III), but there are still areas that could be improved (multiple weapon damage abilities, AI politics and fleet composition, multiple shield and armor levels e.g).

[ January 25, 2003, 06:42: Message edited by: Q ]

[Egregius]

I see a lot of people wishing for the stars, but I really would just like to see just a few things:

1) AI revamp, where the AI can actually figure out stellar manipulation, asteroid-mining/remote-mining and politics (which includes trading!), and maybe even new added components (although this would just be a bonus as it's moddable anyway).

2) Remote mining being even remotely usefull

3) A real character for all the races, and every special ability having it's uses. NO MORE Narn-regimes with non-existant ground combat capabilities and high research and maintenance-reduction abilities owning everybody! When I meet the Cryslonite, I want to tremble for having met a psychotic race, with genocidal leanings and dangerous tech, instead of going: "Cool, I can get gas-colonizing tech somewhere finally. Good thing they havent been exterminated yet like usually is the case.". When I meet the Orkz, let it be experienced as if I met a zany warlike race (actually I'm pretty content with that race, it has a pretty good own character compared to most races).
That is what I want to see. Of course there should be space for easy-to-modness, but now it feels a bit improvised, like they're all coming from the same mould, but with different paint on them.
More special racial abilities would be nice. For example: giant race (half population maximum, ships standard one size bigger; just a random idea)
Also this character should extend to diplomacy, and of course everyone likes to see the EEE really at conflict with the Drushocka, and races like the Drushocka really having energy-depleting weapons.

4) Integrated ground-combat. Problem with troops now is that it's such a hassle, especially for the AI (!). I feel a lot could be solved by making conscripts/enlisted troops part of the population. Possible adjustable, marines would be recruited automatically and gradually. (optional: costing resources like minerals, albeit little)
Every planet should have troops, and every ship should have some troops. Automatically. With optional components/facilities for more for planets that are in the frontline, and for ships fending off boarding or conducting boarding operations on their own. Marines dont take up that much place (barracks!) so why small troops take up so much is a riddle to me. Space-ship crew can double as security troops.
Then you could leave medium and large troops to be the really nasty weapons of ground-war, that DO take space up in cargo, and give nasty bonuses.
Then ground-combat can become interesting, especially with added suppressing fire from starships added to the equation.
(dont forget wars are rarely fought with soldiers alone, or tanks alone for that matter)

Perhaps ground-combat should be left moddable, so some smart wizzkid can code some really nifty plugin for SEV for GC.

Of course, in the best tradition of SEIV, this integrated GC-S could be left optional in favor of the current system =)

5) A use for all 3 resources. Heck, I'd be content if populations fed on organics, just give me a reason to trade, and to have more than 3 organics farms. Same goes for radioactives. Perhaps things would be different if refineries would produce one tenth of what they do now (and more realistic), but that's moddable.

6) Oh and a program that makes it easy to mod (and scenario-edit) would be nice http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

7) On start up, pre-select amount of random races, and *randomized* races. Yes randomized races. If it's moddable, it's randomizable http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

8) One Last simple request...make the game remember my selections I made Last time when starting up. It's infuriating when I'm starting a game, forgot something, and have to click-click-clickety-click all the options I want on again. Especially when I prefer certain settings. I was so pissed off when Blizzard fubared this up in WC3, while Total Annihilation has had this for centuries.

======================================
And yes, a real-time 3D space-combat system would be my wet dream. But considering how (even them!) Lucas Arts fubared the space-combat in Star Wars Rebellion, I think it's safe to keep this out of everybody's wish-list. The game is a lot more playable when it's simple, not a resource-hog, and fast and overseeable.
But again as with a moddable GC-S, this would be nice to be up for mods! If the game calls upon a function, giving the number and position and qualities of ships/other involved to an external program, where that external program will give back the number, position and qualities of ships/other involved at the end of combat to the main program, someone could also make an improved SC-S all the same.
But perhaps this is just fancifull dreaming. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[mlmbd]

How about adding a facet of playability to 'Diplomacy'! Like a 'Diplomat'.
How about being able to hire a 'Hero' or two.

<font color=purple>mlmbd http://www.shrapnelgames.com//ubb/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif </font>

[Lemmy]

Hmm..did i post here before..?

Anyway, i probably haven't posted this yet:
Moddable equations.
That's what i'd like to see in a game, it may seem complex, but it's possible.
Equations that can/should be made moddable are for example the planet happiness, or the hit-or-miss equation in combat.

A bad thing is that depending on the AI design, it may be impossible for the AI to handle it.
Off course, SE5 could also have a multihtreaded AI like in GalCiv, not only will the AI be better, but it could also handle the changing equations if designed for it.

[ January 25, 2003, 21:21: Message edited by: Lemmy ]

[Chris Adams]

I think scripting needs to be carried further - forget just the AI, I want scriptable ministers! It's relatively easy to embed a language like python and it'd be extremely handy for so large games:

- planets can build-and-launch mines or satellites, one turn's worth at a time. Nice for those 200kt cargo planets...
- low priority building - e.g. "if there's excess capacity this turn build these defenses in this order starting with border worlds"
- automatic replacements for weapons platforms, satellites, etc. The major interface would be a way to set the upgrade path. Scripting would allow this to happen one-by-one so you get the benefit of jettisoning the turn before completion and building, one unit at time so a planet is never undefended without all of the micromanagement.

This would also allow automating defense buildups (e.g. have planet x build only at the rate your mine/satellite layer can launch & automate the launch-resupply process; if there are already 100 satellites but they're older than the ones on-board, destroy/move the old ones and replace with modern, etc).

[Egregius]

Heh, almost forgot:

9) auto-launch option for unit producing planets. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[Fyron]

Play a Simultaneous game. Give Launch orders, then Repeat orders. It accomplishes the same thing.