Is there a listing of successful ship designs?

[Elowan]

Showing components, etc? It might help some of us newbies put together better ships.

[Baron Munchausen]

The problem is that there are so many different situations. I suppose an experienced player with TDM for example, could give you some outlines for types of ships that work well for specific races in that mod. But that advice might be worthless in a standard game or a Proportions game. And even within the same mod different games can be very different. That's the fun of it. It's not like chess where you have to figure out how to use the same fixed set of pieces and their moves to do things. The level of detail is too great for there to be any clear, fixed methods to anything.

[ July 11, 2002, 15:59: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

[geoschmo]

Now wait a minute. We all had to learn the hard way, so should you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

The thing to do is play a bunch of games against other people and when their ships tear yours up, then you get the ships designs and can use them in your next game.

Geoschmo

[Gandalph]

Ship designs, like the game itself, are dynamic. As the game changes, your enemy builds different ships, or you meet a new enemy, you must be able to adapt to what you are up against so the best design is determined by the situation. This is one of the reasons AI's do not do well, they cannot adjust.

[Hank]

In the SE4 Dubious Strategy Guide there are listings of favorite ship designs.

[DirectorTsaarx]

I only have two suggestions about ship design:

1) In the standard game, make your ships as fast as possible. (For SJ's Pirates & Nomads, or other mods that use proportional movement, you'll need to find the right balance between speed & weapons/armor/etc.).

2) Don't forget to use combat sensors and ECM on your attack ships; and don't forget to use ECM on ANY ship that will be in battle on a regular basis (like the supply and repair ships you should be including with fleets).

There are, of course, exceptions to the first rule; for instance, to fit a space yard on a cruiser hull you generally have to give up an engine (unless you have master computers). That's perfectly acceptable, and better than using a battle cruiser hull for the space yard ship and either wasting space or adding unnecessary components (and, therefore, unnecessary expense).

There are very few exceptions to the second rule (ships armed only with seekers don't need combat sensors, for instance).

[Baron Munchausen]

Ships armed only with seekers DO need combat sensors if they are also carrying point-defense. PDC are affected by combat sensors, and fighters can be very hard to hit. Granted, if you are not currently fighting any enemies who use fighters you will probably not notice the difference. But just as with most other 'rules' there are exceptions to this one and I thought you should be reminded. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Growltigga]

With respect to ship design, I do like the philosophy put forward by Suicide Junky/Atrocities (apologies guys, I cannot remember which of you it was).

The coda went as follows:

1 select your hull, and then add the requisite amount of bridge, life support and crew quarters for that hull size

2 max out on engines, and if available, stick in a solar sail

3 divide the remaining hull spaces in half, and allocate allocate one half for defensive systems, the other half for offensive systems of your choice

4 once you have this design save it, then copy it over and tweak it a bit

5 go to the simulator and fight both designs against each other a few times - go with the one that wins the most

[sachmo]

Originally posted by Growltigga:
With respect to ship design, I do like the philosophy put forward by Suicide Junky/Atrocities (apologies guys, I cannot remember which of you it was).

The coda went as follows:

1 select your hull, and then add the requisite amount of bridge, life support and crew quarters for that hull size

2 max out on engines, and if available, stick in a solar sail

3 divide the remaining hull spaces in half, and allocate allocate one half for defensive systems, the other half for offensive systems of your choice

4 once you have this design save it, then copy it over and tweak it a bit

5 go to the simulator and fight both designs against each other a few times - go with the one that wins the most<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What an excellent idea!

[Growltigga]

Yeah, I like it and find it works well.

Want to make it clear it is not my idea, Atrocities/SJ get the credit

[Kimball]

Originally posted by Baron Munchausen:
Ships armed only with seekers DO need combat sensors if they are also carrying point-defense. PDC are affected by combat sensors, and fighters can be very hard to hit. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I seem to recall reading a thread quite a while ago that said combat sensors do not influence PDC's. Has that changed?

[Suicide Junkie]

Pre-Gold, PDCs had a 70% minimum to-hit chance. There were only a very small range of situations where Sensors [i]could[/u] make a difference.

Now, PDCs are only +50% (might be +70% in unmodded SE4G)
So now, sensors are very useful, especially for long range PDC shots against ECM-using targets.

[ July 12, 2002, 00:27: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[Baron Munchausen]

Originally posted by Kimball:
I seem to recall reading a thread quite a while ago that said combat sensors do not influence PDC's. Has that changed?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">MM's own Q&A on their site says that combat sensors do affect PDC.

[Atrocities]

one simple rule when designing ships. Don't use every weapon you can stuff into them. Make specialized vessels.

One that is nothing but Point Defense
One for Planet assualts.
One for Fighters
One for Missles
One for other weapons.

Use your ships in tandom, and your fleet will be a stronger unit.

[Baron Munchausen]

Originally posted by Atrocities:
one simple rule when designing ships. Don't use every weapon you can stuff into them. Make specialized vessels.

One that is nothing but Point Defense
One for Planet assualts.
One for Fighters
One for Missles
One for other weapons.

Use your ships in tandom, and your fleet will be a stronger unit.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's when you use manual tactical combat control. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif When you rely on strategic combat, and you must in multiplayer games, this has to be modified a bit. A PDC ship needs one weapon of the same type as the ships it is escorting, and all warships need at least one PDC each. Carriers need PDC and it's probably smart to give them a conventional weapon so they aren't easy prey to a random frigate if they get caught without fighters. As long as they have the 'don't get hurt' strategy they should still stay out of the way in combat. Other modifiactions depend on particular situations.

[ July 12, 2002, 15:33: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

[Will]

My designs vary a lot, depending on the opponents I'm facing at the time in the game. However, in standard-tech SEIV, I generally go with max engines, multiplex/sensors/ecm, one shield, max out on weapons. My philosophy is usually build a whole lot of disposable ships that will do a lot of damage, probably why I usually don't build bigger than Battleships.

When I do build bigger than battleships, they're (usually) more balanced with offense and defense. I'll usually throw in an engine-killer and weapon-killer as well. I've found that those often help quite a bit in combat, especially when defending and using Max Range strategy. A bunch of ships can effectively be disabled by an outmatched ship.

[Skulky]

2 words: PLAY PBW (against humans duh!)

[DirectorTsaarx]

Originally posted by Baron Munchausen:
Ships armed only with seekers DO need combat sensors if they are also carrying point-defense. PDC are affected by combat sensors, and fighters can be very hard to hit. Granted, if you are not currently fighting any enemies who use fighters you will probably not notice the difference. But just as with most other 'rules' there are exceptions to this one and I thought you should be reminded. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You're right, I forgot about combat sensors affecting PDC; but, as you pointed out, it doesn't make much difference unless the enemy is using fighters (or drones).

[Phoenix-D]

It also doesn't matter so much because PD gets a rather large to-hit bonus.

Phoenix-D

[Fyron]

Which is nearly cancelled out by Fighter's defense bonus. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Pax]

Here's a related question: Do Religious Talismans affect the hit probabilities of PDC?

IOW, do PDC count as "direct fire weapons? for purposes of the Religious Talisman's effect? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[PvK]

Yes, both combat sensors and talismans affect the to-hit chances of PDC. So does ship and fleet training, and they all (mathematically incorrectly) ADD together, making a potentially overpoweringly high to-hit mod, at least against fighters at range 1-5 (PDC range).

PvK

[Gryphin]

I guess I could test this in a simulator.
I infer from this thread:
1) Fighters get a large defense bonus
2) Combat Sensors improve PDC

Is this correct?