Black Hole! Panic stations!

[dogscoff]

Hmm... Don't know why that would happen. Are you sure there's not an enemy presence in the system? Some shipsets are really hard to see against certain backdrops. Check on the galaxy map to see the system is marked with a "I'm on my own" circle or a "foreign influence" triangle.

[geoschmo]

Is it possible that your ships are passing through a damaging warp point? I think ships will clear orders when damaged as well. And it may be that the damage is less that it would take to destroy a component, so you may not actually see the damage. But you should get a log message about it.

Geoschmo

[Marvin Kosh]

I just had a second look for ships. It's pretty darn unlikely because (heh) the warp points leading to the black hole are of the really nasty variety, save one. The ones you explore when you've researched armour, repair, etc etc like I *had* to do just to get out of my home system http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

OK, I should probably shut up now lest I give my position away ;-) I just wanted to flag it up more than anything else, see if anyone's seen this happen.

Could it just be that the original path the ship plotted got disrupted by the black-hole movement? As far as I can see, that happens AFTER normal movement in simultaneous....

EDIT: I know they should have their orders cleared if they take damage, but I'd swear they went Scooby AFTER passing into the black hole system.

I checked my previous turns, and I think my repair ship cleared it's orders and fell toward the black hole instead of following it's plotted course out through the far warp point. Of course it's difficult to tell because my orders were naturally cleared when it entered the system.

I don't know if this is because it's a repair ship, because some of my other ships (colony/pop transport) have exhibited this behaviour whilst passing through the system.

A likely explanation for this is that I messed up my turn submission and the orders didn't take, and this wouldn't affect things in my empire too much because I have orders for everything stacked and queued, but it would affect ships whose orders were cleared because of damage.

However, what's the chances that I messed up my submission every time a ship passed into the black hole system? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif There's something at work here I just can't pin it down....

[ August 02, 2002, 14:09: Message edited by: Marvin Kosh ]

[geoschmo]

"Went Scooby". snicker. I'm not sure what that means, but I like the term. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Arkcon]

Clearing their orders is a common occurance on non-simultaneous. Here's what happens. You order the ship to warp out a warp point on the far side of the black hole system (to get somewhere you want to be). The ship exhausts it's movement points AT THE WARP POINT INSIDE THE BLACK HOLE SYSTEM. If you look at it's orders (the little eyeball icon) it says only one thing -- WARP. Next turn, before it can move, the system's abilities pulls it 2 spaces in. Now it tries to execute it's orders -- and can't so it does nothing. I don't know if this is a more common problem on simultaneous.

Basically, you have to keep an eye on your ships in black hole systems. This will happen sometimes, and preventing it isn't really easy.

Maybe if you tell the ship to MOVE TO a sector past the warp point where you want to be warp wont appear in the orders list, but maybe not -- but I think still if it stops at the inside warp point, this still happens.

[Marvin Kosh]

Originally posted by geoschmo:
"Went Scooby". snicker. I'm not sure what that means, but I like the term. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">LMAO.... exactly what it says. Just think of any time Scooby Doo has chickened out because of the scary monster-style villain, but he's running against the grain of a conveyer belt or something and actually not getting anywhere at all http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

EDIT: Come to think of it, when I say something is messed up, I tend to say it's 'scoobied' http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[ August 02, 2002, 14:14: Message edited by: Marvin Kosh ]

[Marvin Kosh]

Originally posted by Arkcon:
Maybe if you tell the ship to MOVE TO a sector past the warp point where you want to be warp wont appear in the orders list, but maybe not -- but I think still if it stops at the inside warp point, this still happens.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This can't be it. I had my ships with orders to warp at each warp point, so I could see the plotted course. That would mean that if it couldn't warp it would still continue with its next order, to move to the next system and warp.

In this instance, they've scoobied up before they even got near the far (destination) warp point in the black hole system. I'm pretty sure it's been the same for the others.

EDIT: Anyway, I guess we'll see what happens when my next ship runs through that system - there was one a turn behind the repair ship on the same plot http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ August 02, 2002, 14:20: Message edited by: Marvin Kosh ]

[Arkcon]

Originally posted by Marvin Kosh:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Arkcon:
[qb]I had my ships with orders to warp at each warp point, so I could see the plotted course. That would mean that if it couldn't warp it would still continue with its next order, to move to the next system and warp.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">'Kay. So maybe the fix doesn't work. But I still think my explanantion holds --

Situation A
IF (ship is on warp point) AND (order to WARP), THEN (warp through).

Situation B
If NOT(ship is on warp point) AND (order to WARP), THEN (BEEP at user) AND DO(nothing).

What happens is Situation A becomes Situation B when you're not looking. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ August 02, 2002, 18:13: Message edited by: Arkcon ]

[Marvin Kosh]

Hmmm, you know I'm going to just stop using the Warp order for moving to systems I've already explored. That will eliminate that particular loophole http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

Ships tend to clear orders when one of them fails.
I think Arkcon's answer is more accurate than it first seems.

Do(nothing) is instead: Clear Orders

I believe this also happens when you have a Launch order without cargo, or a load order without free space.

[ August 02, 2002, 14:53: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[Arkcon]

Originally posted by Marvin Kosh:
Hmmm, you know I'm going to just stop using the Warp order for moving to systems I've already explored. That will eliminate that particular loophole http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's always a good plan, notice the newbie problem with zero population colonies. That's caused by using the warp command instead of the colonize command. But then, how do you explore an unknown warp point -- you go to it and activate the warp command. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Note that your work around may still fail, if the ships Last movement point that turn places it on the warp point out.

Anyways, even though black holes are unfair to the AI -- I think they're fun. They add variety, a little bit of drama ( Do we have the supplies to cross ? Can we repair engines in time to escape? Captain, the light cruiser is too damaged -- we have to cut it free from the fleet before we're lost as well. Captain ? Captain ? Sir ?)

Then there's those crazy ship commaders of mine, shutting down those engines and letting the the ship coast in to save supplies, activating them just two sectors away from certain destruction --

"Commander, we must activate the engines now, or we'll be destroyed"

"Orders from the Emperor have not arrived yet"

"You fool, can't you see he's forgotten us and left us to die !"

"You're out of line Sub-commander, stand down!"

*Crunch*

Uhh, oops. Sorry 'bout that guys. Heh.

[ August 02, 2002, 16:48: Message edited by: Arkcon ]

[dogscoff]

*crunch*
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">LOL! So true. I think there should be a log report at the beginning of the turn for those occasions:

"Events: Hey, Stupid! You've left a fleet in a black hole system without any orders! Maybe it's time you got some sleep!"

[Marvin Kosh]

Originally posted by Arkcon:
"Orders from the Emperor have not arrived yet"

"You fool, can't you see he's forgotten us and left us to die !"
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">LOL! You know, it would be nice if, in addition to getting sucked in two sectors a turn, the ship was swirled clockwise (or is it counter-clockwise)one sector around the black hole too. I know, it's not the same as a cosmic sinkhole, but....

Originally posted by dogscoff:
I think there should be a log report at the beginning of the turn for those occasions:

"Events: Hey, Stupid! You've left a fleet in a black hole system without any orders! Maybe it's time you got some sleep!"

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Heehee, I think it should be more like a blinking warning light on the empire map, that indicates ships are in imminent danger if you do not give them orders this turn, but that's just me.

[Marvin Kosh]

....is what my ship captains must be saying. I'm in a PBW game (simultaneous turns), and I'm sending ships through a black hole system regularly, and for some reason they are clearing their orders.... looks random but I just don't know for sure. I've had them set to warp through several systems and this one is in the middle.

It's nippy, because if I wasn't such a micromanager I would have just lost my repair ship to the black hole.

[DirectorTsaarx]

Originally posted by Marvin Kosh:
EDIT: I know they should have their orders cleared if they take damage, but I'd swear they went Scooby AFTER passing into the black hole system.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You mean they passed into the system, moved a couple spaces, and THEN went Scooby? Or do you mean they went Scooby immediately after warp? If they lost orders immediately after warping in, it's the damage thing. Damaging warp points cause damage when you warp through, which means the damage appears AFTER passing through the damaging warp point.

If they moved a couple spaces before losing orders, that would be strange. Although it could be that an enemy warped in, clearing your ship orders, and then the enemy ship got sucked into the black hole and destroyed before you saw it during your turn.

[DirectorTsaarx]

Originally posted by Arkcon:
Clearing their orders is a common occurance on non-simultaneous. Here's what happens. You order the ship to warp out a warp point on the far side of the black hole system (to get somewhere you want to be). The ship exhausts it's movement points AT THE WARP POINT INSIDE THE BLACK HOLE SYSTEM. If you look at it's orders (the little eyeball icon) it says only one thing -- WARP. Next turn, before it can move, the system's abilities pulls it 2 spaces in. Now it tries to execute it's orders -- and can't so it does nothing. I don't know if this is a more common problem on simultaneous.
&lt;snip&gt;<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">An even better twist on this one: if you use "warp points can appear anywhere in system", it's completely possible to have a warp point within 2 spaces of the center. Then, when your ships run out of movement points at the warp point (either warping in or warping out), you're just out of luck. I lost a fleet of 3 baseships that way recently... 2 lessons learned: never warp into an unknown system with your Last movement point, and micromanage your ships' movement through a known black hole system.

[Suicide Junkie]

The safe way to explore new warppoints is to give an order to "warp" through, and then "move" back to the known side of the warppoint. And give that order when you have at least 2 MP and are standing on the safe side of the WP.

Unless there are mines, an enemy defense force, or it is a damaging warppoint, you will peek in, gaining the system map, and return before anything bad can happen.

[Baron Munchausen]

Now if only the AI were smart enough to mark black hole systems as 'no transit' once it had explored them...

[Alpha Kodiak]

Originally posted by Baron Munchausen:
Now if only the AI were smart enough to mark black hole systems as 'no transit' once it had explored them...<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Trouble is, a situation would come along where the only way out of its limited area would be a black hole, and it would voluntarily lock itself in for the rest of the game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

You just can't win when you try to help out the AI.

[Arkcon]

Originally posted by Baron Munchausen:
Now if only the AI were smart enough to mark black hole systems as 'no transit' once it had explored them...<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hmm... Looks like if the AI did that, that system would be a free system for a human player in the mood for some micromanagement. And what if you closed all warp points except black hole system points. Now you can travel and the AI can't. At least, if the AI is there, there's a chance to lay down some hurt if an ememy is there.

Looks to me like this is the AI's "plan" -- if anything it does can be called a plan. Build lots of stuff and throw it at the enemy, anywhere and anyway it can.

For example, "Ooo... I lost 3/4 of my fleet to mines" A human player might run away to regroup, the AI instaed just tries the best it can with what's left. Which of the two is the best plan -- the one that works in the end. With the bonus we give the AI, it's method works pretty good.

Like many people I would like to see a more intelligent AI. As it stands now it makes some good decisions, something like ...

IF (enemy ships are N light cruisers) then send (N+2 destroyers) else wait (more ships built)

and

If (ships blow up due to mines) then research (minesweepers),build them, send them to minefield.

If only the AI were capable of ...

If (damageing warp point) then research (Armor and repair), build them, include with fleets exploring warp point.

or

If (two nebulas systems in a row) then build (extra supply storage) else (put weapon instead)

Right now, there is only some limited planning, and only against certain enemy threats not against demands of the galactic environment.

[Gryphin]

Arn't Un Explored warp ponts why we have Escorts? Use SJs method with expendable ships, (run by master computers of course to reduce loss of life).