Proportions 2.4.2 released

[PvK]

Version 2.4.2 of Proportions mod is available from the Proportions web site (http://g2.latibulum.com/pvk/proportions/).

Version 2.4.2:

* Reduced costs of Solar Sail components.
* Removed access to duplicate Resupply Depot.
* Corrected typo in new Jraenar General file that would sometimes cause an
error while creating a new game.
* Changed family of drone launchers (was same as anti-ship drone warheads)
to avoid incorrect upgrades.
* Changed family of Computer Virus components, to remove conflict in
original SE4 data.
* Changed families of some armor types to avoid incorrect upgrades.
* Changed family of Secondary Fire Control to avoid incorrect upgrades, but
that didn't stop the upgrade code, so I shifted Multiplex Tracking to a
new lower position. Nothing should upgrade to Secondary Fire Control now.

PvK

[dumbluck]

Hmmmm.... Maybe I'll have to try this mod out one of these days.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif

[Ed Kolis]

Wait... are you saying that if I have a Family 53 of components for ships and a Family 53 of components for fighters then if I design a ship with a component from that family and upgrade it then it will upgrade to the fighter Version??? Darn, I was designing my data files under the assumption that it was safe to have different components with the same family number as long as they had different vehicle types! It was saving me a lot of trouble when I copied over stuff like Master Computers - a Small Master Computer would have the same family as the regular type only it would be Fighter mounted instead of Ship\Base (who ever came up with these backslashes anyway? looks like a freaking DIRECTORY! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ) <-- test to see if smileys will work even without surrounding spaces Anyway, that way I wouldn't have to come up with a new family number to use for the Small Master Computers. Guess I might have to change all my data files now... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

[Phoenix-D]

Oh, you do. You can end up with some very freaky things if you don't change family numbers.

Phoenix-D

[PvK]

Yep, that's right, and that's what I was mostly doing for this patch. It will even upgrade to completely different component types - I was having "Supply Compartment" upgrade to "Drone Launcher", or something similar, at one point! And yes, the upgrader will ignore vehicle type limits.

Also, I found out that multiplex tracking upgrading actually ignores the family number, so you must put them in the order you want them to upgrade, or it will upgrade to the MP-ability component that is farthest down in the file, regardless of family number.

PvK

[Schwarzbart]

Hmm think you have a typo on your Web Page!

Patch to Version 2.4.2 from 2.4.2<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

[PvK]

Thanks Schwarzbart - fixed.

oleg, I'll think about it more, but the Tachyon Cannon does have an advantage that increases in Proportions, which is the +10 to-hit modifier. In the standard game, this cancels out half a level of ECM, half-training (about three turns), or 1/3 the max armor to-hit mods. In Proportions, +10 cancels out two-to-four times as much effort to increase defense: ECM II, a year's training with Ship Training Facility level III-IV, or more than half the max armor defense bonus.

How about if I add extended levels (with diminishing returns though), for those who want to devote exceptional research and resources to get a more powerful weapon?

PvK

[oleg]

PvK, I think it would be a good idea to beef up
Tachion Cannon. It is a top-level temporal weapon but is pretty much useless now. Can you scale up its damage in the same way as you did to Torpedoes, High-energy magnifier and mental singularity cannon ? Enveloping acid globule may need adjustments as well.

[ August 06, 2002, 12:54: Message edited by: oleg ]

[oleg]

Extra research level would be fine. I think overall Temporal is little bit weak in Proportions - Temporal vacation center is not such a good facility as in vanilla SE IV (high level cities and above give morale bonuses) and weapons become weaker. Temporal space yards are very nice though. They can really speed up Acropolis construction !

[PvK]

I see your points, but I think Temporal is more or less worth the points. I think there is another Temporal advantage you haven't mentioned yet which is also quite powerful, both in the normal game and in Proportions. I don't think people figure it out very often, though.

PvK

[oleg]

Actually, argument with +10 to hit does not hold: both WMG and HEM have even bigger to hit bonuses and are scaled up. T.C. definetly needs it too. It is just too underpowered now.

Hmm, what is the hidden advantage of Temporal ?
system-wide combat bonus, right ?

[PvK]

I'll do a detailed numeric comparison comparing to others, and probably add higher level Versions as a result.

The system combat bonus is another good one you didn't mention, but there is something else that I consider quite powerful but I think most players don't think of and see/notice is as good as it is.

PvK

[DirectorTsaarx]

Originally posted by PvK:
I'll do a detailed numeric comparison comparing to others, and probably add higher level Versions as a result.

The system combat bonus is another good one you didn't mention, but there is something else that I consider quite powerful but I think most players don't think of and see/notice is as good as it is.

PvK<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, the only things left are the "cheaper" Version of the Null-Space Cannon (but with shorter range and less damage), the Shield Accelerators (very high on the temporal tech tree, though), and the quad-damage-to-shields weapon. That Last is the one I like best; fires every round, good range (7 at max tech), the quad damage to shields makes it as powerful as most shield-only weapons against shields, and then it can do normal damage. All in the same space as an Anti-Proton Beam.

Also, I don't usually bother with the combat bonus facility against the AI, because I'm rarely fighting in my own systems...

[PvK]

Tsaarx almost got it.

[Spoo]

The happiness facility?

[Fyron]

Temporal Scanners. You get them much sooner than you would get Hyper Optics, Tachyon Scanners, or Gravitic Scanners.

[PvK]

See how many neat things Temporal has? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif But one of their most powerful and I think usually overlooked hasn't been mentioned yet. ... unless I'm nuts. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

PvK

[oleg]

In standard SE IV small time distorsion bLast is IMHO the best fighter weapon. It is weaker than say small telikinetic projector or small electric discharge, but against heavily shielded battlecruisers and battleships, sTDB performs much better.
In Proportions it is not as powerfull though.

On the other hand, regular TDB is a nice weapon. In normal SE IV PPB is a no-brainer before phased shields but then everybody would have decent shield depletors. Hence, there is no much use for TDB. In proportions good PPB take a long time to research and TDB certainly has its use.

[DirectorTsaarx]

Originally posted by oleg:
In standard SE IV small time distorsion bLast is IMHO the best fighter weapon. It is weaker than say small telikinetic projector or small electric discharge, but against heavily shielded battlecruisers and battleships, sTDB performs much better.
In Proportions it is not as powerfull though.

On the other hand, regular TDB is a nice weapon. In normal SE IV PPB is a no-brainer before phased shields but then everybody would have decent shield depletors. Hence, there is no much use for TDB. In proportions good PPB take a long time to research and TDB certainly has its use.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree about the small TDB. Size, damage & range same as small DUC (well, actually the small DUC has worse range at level 1); however, that 4x damage to shields still holds. So a Small TDB 3 will do 60 damage to shields at range 2, in a 3kT package. And the small shield depleter 3 will only do 15 kt damage (in a 2kT package).

However, I'd have to disagree about TDB not being as useful as shield depleters + another weapon. The TDB does almost as much damage as the shield depleter at highest levels (TDB is better than the shield depleter at level 1 ! ), and goes on to do internal damage as well. Besides, by the time everyone else has phased shields and the standard shield depleters, temporal has the shield accelerator...

[oleg]

I did not check it myself yet but wonder if anybody can answer this question: fighters use shields as part of structure (related thread - http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=006412 ), so what happens when TDB or small TDB hits fighters stack ? Does 4X shield damage have any effect ?

[oleg]

Well, it seems like 4x shield damage is completely ignored against shielded fighters.
All this business about special treatments of units makes me sick.

[dumbluck]

I hate guessing games. Why don't you just let us in on your little secret? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[PvK]

Prize goes to Oleg. Small TDB is what I was thinking of. It is reduced in Proportions as are all fighter weapons, but fighter defenses make fighters much stronger than in the standard game.

PvK

[PvK]

Rollo asked me a question about upgrading old games to 2.4.2 that brought up something I hadn't considered much, but is a bit of an issue for upgrading old games.

That is, when I fixed the way components upgrade, I had to make identical copies of some components, and make the old Versions part of the unattainable "Inaccessible Technology" tree. This means that existing and under-construction items will function normally when a game is upgraded to a later Version of Proportions, but designs that use the "old" components will show up as too advanced to build. In general this is not a problem.

However there is one case where it can have a non-superficial effect: If ships and bases with old components get damaged, they won't be able to repair those components that have been adjusted, unless they get retrofitted with the new identical Versions.

So, this is just to let everyone know about the unintended side-effect, if they're in ongoing games that have upgraded.

PvK

[oleg]

With Emissive armour finally fixed, it may be worth restoring "armor" ability to proportions' emissive armor. In my short tests, internal emissive armor gives strange protection to all components - 35 hit points (EA III) are subtracted from damage regardless what components are destroyed. Of course it is impossible to trek the partial damage and it may be every time some partial damage is redirected to EA but so far my impression is that EA is extremely powerfull.

Even better would be to make both types of EA - normal and internal.

[PvK]

Yes, the new emissive function will require some rethinking of armor balance. Certainly it would be interesting to have two types of armor that work both ways, though some testing should be done to figure out exactly what's going on with the new mechanic. I expect it's simply that the emissive value gets applied to every hit, until all emissive ability components are destroyed. If the component lacks "armor" ability, it might take a long time to get destroyed, increasing the value of the emissive ability compared to components with the "armor" (hit first) ability.

PvK

[oleg]

My view is that EA should be made "armor" back again with appropriate changes in damage resistance. Internal EA should be renamed "damper field generator" (like in Moo2) or something like that.
It can be also be moved to Shields research area - just makes more sence to me. Or it can be made a crossover shield-armour tech.

[PvK]

Sounds about right, although I think I may give all armor a very low emissive ability. Not enough to absorb anything completely, but enough to deflect some damage. Unless it stacks... it doesn't stack, does it?

PvK

[oleg]

EA does not stack. The most disturbing fact is that internal EA makes all armor "emissive" - check the "emissive armor" thread.

[ August 16, 2002, 00:17: Message edited by: oleg ]

[PvK]

Thanks for those results, oleg. Interesting. I'm stewing on ideas for how to adjust Proportions armor to compensate for the new EA system.

Current thought is something like (for ships):

Armor I: 60 structure, 5 EA, cost 20
Armor II: 90 structure, 6 EA, cost 40
Armor III: 120 structure, 7 EA, cost 80
Adv. Armor I: 150 structure, 9 EA, cost 160
Adv. Armor II: 180 structure, 10 EA, cost 320
Ult. Armor I: 210 structure, 12 EA, cost 640
Ult. Armor II: 240 structure, 13 EA, cost 1280

Emissive Ar.I: 200 structure, 15 EA, cost 500 + 200
Emissive A.II: 200 structure, 20 EA, cost 750 + 350
Emissive III: 200 structure, 25 EA, cost 1000 + 500

Note EA takes twice the size as normal armor, and corresponds to the top three armor tech levels, plus a physics-2 requirement.

Ideas? Comments?

Anyone tested whether different levels of EA stack, or if two components with different family number, both with EA, have EA stack?

And, does the EA actually stop when all EA components are destroyed?

PvK

[oleg]

Are you keeping EA as internal component ?
I still think it is better to make EA "normal" armor again. I modified my proportions' components.txt that EA is armor, EA1 has 60hp, ea 20, size 20;
EA2 - 70hp, ea 25; EA3 - 80hp, ea 30.

As I mentioned already, my major concern is that EA ability for any internal component converts all armor to EA. I think it is too unbalancing. As to stacking EA from different families - good question, I do not know yet.

[oleg]

PvK, according to Baron, EA abilities from different families/components do not stack. He posted this observation in "emissive armor" thread.

[PvK]

Thanks oleg. Yes, I was thinking of keeping EA as internal armor, but it might do well to also add a standard EA that is damaged first, has lower structure, and has higher EA ability than the other.

In general I think all armor should have some level of EA, even internal, because in general all armor "should" (IMO) reduce the amount of damage done, particularly by light hits, compared to unarmored ships. Currently this only takes place in Proportions due to the way partial damage is dropped between battles.

Moreover, the ability of armor to deflect and reduce damage shouldn't usually be able to be "shot off" a ship, and that certainly would almost never happen "first" (before other components) unless you had some sort of enveloping disintegration weapon (enveloping acid globule or something).

This new mechanic does throw a bit of a wrench in all previous balance calculations, though.

PvK

[oleg]

Amonkarie_AI_general.txt list 2K option is overbord - as a result, Amonkarie start wit 0 maintanace reduction and 400 spare points. I changed its maintainance from 115 to 108 in order to get exactly 2K race make-up

[PvK]

The Amon'krie, except for option 3, just spend points on characteristics rather than traits. I tried to design them to spend up to 5000 points, though the 0/2000/3000/5000 boundaries may often cross a characteristic. However I don't think that results in unspent points - I think the AI will spend up until it runs out of points, even if it can't reach the goal level in a characteristic.

Does that address it, or were you seeing something not covered by that (or am I wrong about the way the AI is spending points?)?

PvK

[oleg]

You are mistaken about how SE uses points: when it sees "maintanance := 115", it tries to add it to race characteristics and if it exceeds 2K (assuming 2K start), it ignores it completely. For every entry in AI_general.txt SE works like all or nothing. Amonkarie starts with 100 maintainance and 400 unused points.

[overminder]

I have a question. I just doneload Proportions and wanted to know why is basic life support large the normal if it can't take as much damage? Basic is 15k and only 1 DR while normal is 10k and 10 DR.

[Phoenix-D]

Basic is cheaper to build.

[PvK]

Thanks Oleg. Of course a work-around would be to go and add intermediate steps... humpf.

As for Basic Life Support, it saves a lot of cost but is less efficient in size and breaks as soon as it gets hit. So you can decide for each design whether it is worth the expense to gain a little space for other components, and to have a more durable ship.

PvK

[overminder]

Thanks. I wasn't paying attention to the cost at the time.

[oleg]

Just a minor issue: 2.4 Ukra-Tal uses Pequeninos AI. Pequeninos are Rock but Ukra-Tal are Ice. To make Ukra-Tal research Rock planet colonization, a minor tweak to UkraTal_Ai_research.txt is needed. Here it is:
1029722993.txt (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1029722993.txt)

[dogscoff]

Don't know if this is a Proportions bug or a 1.78 bug, but I thought I'd poost it here rather than open a new thread:

In a solo proportions 2.4.2 game under 1.78, I got a level 1 plague event on one of my colonies. I went to look at it, and it looked fine. Population happy and increasing. "Oh well, maybe it will kick in next turn or something." I started researching biology and hit "next turn."

It's now 10 or 20 turns later and that colony (and all my other colonies) are plague free, happy and increasing in population.

[dumbluck]

It's not a bug. See THIS (http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=006674) thread.

[PvK]

Hmm, but that thread describes how you get a plague notification when colonies that are not yours suffer a plague. Dogscoff says the message was about one of his own colonies.

So, I'm not sure what would cause that. I know I've caught plagues in other games, though I think the Last time I saw one was more like Proportions 2.2 + SE4 1.67.

PvK

[Spoo]

Does the planet say "plagued"?

[DirectorTsaarx]

Don't some of the special Proportions facilities cure plagues automagically? Maybe the plague got cured as soon as it started...

[dogscoff]

I dunno, maybe it was an AI colony. I hadn't considered that. My colony is a moon orbitting an AI colony, so maybe. It certainly wasn't autmatically cured by a facility (at least it shouldn't have been) and no, it doesn't say "plagued" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[PvK]

I guess there could also be system-wide protection against plagues, on an alien colony?

If you like, email me the turn and I can take a peek.

PvK

[Puke]

i believe that a time long ago, in a patch far, far away...

there was a change that enabled allies (dont remember the treaty level required) ships with medical bays to cure plagues of the allied empire. It stands to reason that this calls the same function that the facility ability calls, and that is what happened.

[oleg]

Any plans to incorporate new mounts ? Like in AJC or Deathstalker mounts mods ?

[PvK]

Yes, I am musing on what to put in 2.5. I am currently thinking:

2.5 (upgradable from earlier Versions 2.0+):

* Add a few new-style mounts, but they have to come at the end of the lists, to allow games to upgrade and AI not to break, so there are some limits on what I can do.

* Adjust emissive armor somewhat, as discussed below. I'm still mulling over the options, but am thinking about like below.

* Using one or two of the new damage types, and checking the weapon balance again. There was a recommendation for a temporal weapon extension below, and I think I may make the Graviton Hellbore more worthwhile by giving it the 2x vs. shields ability.

PvK

[jimbob]

How about making the low velocity particle cannons (DUC, others?) 2x against shields? Afterall, it isn't just energy hitting the shields, it's actual mass, which should be harder to stop (IMHO). Besides, it would make them a little more useful, maybe even until midgame...

[PvK]

I have some ideas for cannon variations, but I think not for 2.5, because there are some Proportions 2.x games in progress, and largely changing a weapon that is likely in widespread use would tend to disturb the coherence of those games.

Which types of weapons would have more or less effects on shields, logically speaking, depends on what kind of shields you imagine. Some shields currently being researched actually only affect solid projectiles.

PvK

[DocShane]

I would like to get involved in a Proportions PBW game. Please let me know if anyone has an opening or if a new game starts.

[Phoenix-D]

You're in luck Shayne. A player just dropped out of Proportions 24hr (my game)

http://seiv.pbw.cc/text/index.jsp?menu=gamemenu.jsp%3fgame=1taddsi&body=gamebody.jsp%3fgame=1taddsi

runing latest Version of Proportions and SE4; the Last player dropped out because 24hr turns was a bit fast.

Phoenix-D

[dogscoff]

Some shields currently being researched actually only affect solid projectiles.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Cool! I love it when sci-fi tech comes to life! You got a URL for that?

[PvK]

Not handy. I've noticed two different shield techs listed in the popular media recently. One is designed to zap and defeat incoming shaped-charge armor-piercing cannon rounds. The other is the plasma shield which someone posted a link to on this forum recently.

PvK

[Jmenschenfresser]

Help, I need somebody...

Umm. Just downloaded Prop 2.4.2. Several, well all really, of the non-stock races included don't have pics or AI files, which of course causes errors when adding a new race.

Am I missing something. I did d/l the complete Version.

[oleg]

Extra races are in separate file. Go back to PvK' site, they are there. He put them into separate file so people won't have to download big files every time there is a new Version.

Yes, this is a link:

http://g2.latibulum.com/pvk/proportions/OlegsProportionsAIs.zip

[ August 24, 2002, 03:32: Message edited by: oleg ]

[PvK]

Thanks Oleg.

PvK

[Phoenix-D]

Whoa. Major, major bug I just found.

Fighter Shield Generators (when you have lg fighters and level III shields) upgrade to *AFV* shield generators. This is very nasty, because the AFV shields are the same size but make 1600 shield points! Also, for some reason upgrading fighters adds an extra life support component.

Phoenix-D

[Aub]

Speaking of upgrades, I find it very irritating that ECM II (for example) upgrades to ECM Ia. This is something you never want to do to your ships.

What you do want is, after getting new tech, to click on "upgrade" and get your ship equipped with the up-to-day stuff. Going through and changing ECMs back to full-power Versions all the time is no fun.

Of course this pales in comparison to upgrade bugs that affect gameplay...

AUB

[oleg]

I concur. There are just too many component families in Proportions. It is not easy to track all upgrade bugs. Poor PvK needs all our help ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[PvK]

Thanks for catching those. It's been quite difficult to catch all of the weird upgrade side-effects. I thought I got the ECM ones sorted out, but I guess not. Grumble grumble... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

PvK

[Rollo]

There is a very helpful tool in the tools archive (probably the old one) that will look through the components file and list all the family numbers. IIRC it is called 'Component Lister'. Helped me a lot to sort out the components and upgrade issues when revising the Devnull Mod.

Rollo

[Urendi Maleldil]

I found it, it's from November 2001, but the link is broken. That sounds like a really useful utility.

[oleg]

Another upgrade problem:

There are 3 separate mineral miners families:
Mineral miner (level I,II,III)
Mineral complex (I,II,III)
Mineral megaplex (I,II,III)

Now, if I research Industry 2 and get megaplex,
complex becomes obsolete. Thus, if I later research mineral extraction 2, I can upgrade miner 1 to miner 2, megaplex 1 to megaplex 2 but there is no way to upgrade complex 1 to complex 2 ! It simply does not show up in upgrade window. Thus if I already build complex 1, I stuck with it and must scrap it. Same happened to radioactive extraction buildings. I suspect there is a mix-up in family numbers of complex and megaplex.

[PvK]

Thanks Oleg. I thought I'd tested that, but ah well. The thing is they are all in the same family, so the intention was that they would upgrade to the biggest and brightest. It seems important to be able to upgrade from complex to megacomplex without scrapping. For some reason, it seems that it upgrades only to the first facility found with the highest roman numeral, so that's Facility II, not Megacomplex II. Ooops. So I either need to change the numerals, or reverse the fac family order. I may do one way for 2.4.3 (to preserve games in progress) and the other for 3.0 (since it will be easier to understand).

PvK

[PvK]

Oh, and BTW, a tip - megacomplexes don't really obsolete complexes, because complexes retain a much faster build time and a faster return on investment, to a serious degree. Especially once I fix the %$#@&* upgrade path, it can make sense to build complexes before investing in megacomplexes.

PvK