OT: Star Trek Nemesis

[Ragnarok]

I'm sure we're all looking forward to this movie very much. At least I am. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif As you all may know that the Romulans are the feature bad guys in this one. I just came across the new Romulan Warbird for this movie. It's friggin sick! (in the good way of course) Take a look here. {link} (http://www.mx-webdesign.com/images/valdore.jpg)

This ship is awesome. Very sleak and evil looking. My kind of ship. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Hope you all enjoy. I'm sure Atrocities will. If he hasn't come across this already of course. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Puke]

tradition has it, that this should be one of the good ones. either that, or i forgot which number we were on.

[Deathstalker]

from all the 'rumors' and cameos I have heard about it should be an 'interesting' movie to say the least http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

So long as it does NOT feature the Borg or Time Travel I will be happy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif (though I always did say that the best solution to the Shapeshifter threat in DS9 was to let the Borg know where their homeworld was http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

[ August 30, 2002, 06:40: Message edited by: Deathstalker ]

[Fyron]

I don't think the Borg could assimilate the Changelings. They would just stare at them dumb-founded like they do with anything they can't assimilate or understand and get picked off one-by-one. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Atrocities]

Ragnarok thanks for posting the image. I had hoped someone would find one. I did post about the Trailer when it came out over a month ago, but I did not have any images of the new Romulan ships. Thanks. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Glad that others have taken an interest in the movie. Your right, I will enjoy it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Hope to see you there too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Pax]

Originally posted by Deathstalker:
So long as it does NOT feature the Borg or Time Travel I will be happy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif (though I always did say that the best solution to the Shapeshifter threat in DS9 was to let the Borg know where their homeworld was http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">WHAT ARE YOU INSANE?!?!?!?!?

Then we'd've just had to deal with SHAPESHIFTING BORG ... *sigh* ...

lol j/k. heh.

[Ragnarok]

"Ragnarok thanks for posting the image. I had hoped someone would find one. I did post about the Trailer when it came out over a month ago, but I did not have any images of the new Romulan ships. Thanks."

Hey man no problem. I knew you'd enjoy that more then anyone. I knew you were one of the biggest star trek fans on here so yeah. I'm also a huge trekkie. Have been ever since I was a kid. But I will be there hopefully on opening night. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[oleg]

Just to beat anybody who has the same idea:
I converted the snapshot to SEIV friendly 128x128 bmp image. I believe it will make a nice addition to Atrocities' or anybody else Romulan shipset:

1030732651.bmp (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1030732651.bmp)

[Atrocities]

Nice work, now all we need is a top down image. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I was something like 4 when the neighbor kid turned me onto it. He had models of star ships and such. The very first episode I watched was the one with the salt sucking creature. After that I was hooked. No one else in my family likes the show. Well thats wrong, now that enterprise is out, my Dad likes it. I must admit, the series is a pleasent one to watch with good acting, and good stories so far. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ August 30, 2002, 20:19: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

[oleg]

I watched every ST:TOS and ST:TNG episodes. DS9 and, what is the correct acronism for 7of9 show, really and I mean REALLY, disapointed me. Not surprisngly, my attention was glued to the best ever(IMHO, of course) SF show - Babylon5. But Enterprize really rocks - very nice and solid show. I can hardly wait for the second season !

[Dracus]

I tape every show and then watch them all in re-runs.

Seven of nine WHat a babe.

[Dracus]

Enterprise second run airs sept 18 and I have my pvr aready to tape it.

[oleg]

Ok, here is mini-picture. it corresponds more or less to lightcruiser/cruiser slot. I can scale it up or down upon the request:
1030752748.BMP (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1030752748.BMP)

Good for you, Dracus. Here in UK I'm afraid we will have to wait for 6+ monthes before paramaunt and C4 agree about royalties http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[Captain Kwok]

It's a nice looking ship - very sleek. It's also very massive - 115 decks say the specs.

[Magnum357]

115 Decks?????? My god, its got to be a Battleship or dreadnaunght in SE4 terms. This ship might out-do a Soverign!

Hey, I do have a couple of questions about this movie though.

First-Does the Dominion War play an effect on how this story is going work? I mean, the Dominoin War was a very large and important war. I find it hard to beleive it wouldn't have major effects in the future.

Second-About the Show Enterprise, are we ever going to see Starfleet make first contact with the Romulans? I don't know if Enterprise is anywhere similar to SFB, but in SFB part of the reason the Federation was formed was because of the devestating effects the Romulan/Fed war in the 22nd Century. I would have sworn the Romulan War was etheir just before or just after the Federation was formed (at least in SFB terms).

[disabled]

There is an episode coming up where the Enterprise NX-01 runs into a romulan mine field. I think it's slated at episode 3 for the season.

They have also invited John Logan to script any romulan shows he wants to do and are being extremely careful abotu handling the romulans.

[Major Tom]

I personally try to pretend that Voyager never really happened, as well as parts of DS9. Those two shows really took Star Trek away form 'meeting new life and new civilizations' to 'meeting and killing new life and battling new civilizations'. Having 2 Star Trek shows on at a time was a bit much as well.

I can see that Enterprise might be drawn into the flashy special effects, big explosions, super spaceships, and major battles that obsessed DS9 and Voyager, notably with their obsession of time travel. However, the best thing that I have noticed about Enterprise is that they are getting back to the basics, charactor development over special effects. They do not have the same two dimensional and very boring characters that filled the Last two shows. In DS9 and Voyager, they all got along too well, it was like watching Full House, but in space.

I started watching Star Trek as a kid. Actually, my mother watched Star Trek when it was rerun in the late 60's and early 70's. I watched every episode of TNG, but lost interest in DS9 and Voyager and then became a fan of B5.

(I actually saw a picture of the new Romulan Warbird a few months ago, and was very dissappointed in it. At the time, it was very silver and non-Romulan looking. It was possibly just the angle that the picture was, but this one looks a heck of a lot better!)

[ August 31, 2002, 15:38: Message edited by: Major Tom ]

[disabled]

I saw that same picture, it was a pre-production picture I think. Like the ones they mock up for the producers to see.

I did a little bit more digging and found that Rick Berman wants to be very careful about the Romulans because it was firmly established that no one had seen them until Kirk's era.

So for the romulans in Enterprise, I understand the helmsman, mayweather, will be piloting the good ship across a minefield with expert ability....

something about it makes me say "Petal to the Metal, Commander!"

[Magnum357]

Well, that is good to hear that the Romulans will be introduced in Enterprise. And I'm glad to hear that they are "Being careful" with the Romulans in the show. But I still think they should include some sort of war between Starfleet and the Romulans. From stuff I have read by both Star Trek stuff and SFB stuff, the war Lasted a few years and was very devestating to both sides. And like I said before, in the SFB universe, the Romulan War was basically why the Federation was formed. It would be neat if they setup the series like this in comming seasons...

-First Contact with Romulans by attack of a Terran vessel (can't remember in my readings if it was a Cargo ship or an Exploration ship).
-Over the next few months, more and more incidents of Romulan incursions (etheir by attacks or espionage) on other races and even Terran ships and colonies (I assume their might be a few Terran OutPosts by the 22nd century).
-Many nearby races get in a panicked situation and start waring against Romulans, or attack other races due to Romulan involvment (I could see some very interesting episodes if it was built this way).
-After a couple of seasons, Starfleet and maybe even Vulcans find true intentions by Romulans and try too form an Alliance against the Threat.
-War starts between the Romulans and the Alliance. Last for a few years with devestating loses and results in a stalemate.
-Neutral Zone is established by way of Sub-space Radio and rules are established between governments.
-Just After War, with such devestating loses to Alliances forces, a centralized government is formed (with opposition of course) between races which form the core of what we see today of the Federation. An new force within the Alpha Quadrant to supress the Evil Romulan Empire. Takes decades for the new Alliance to root itself into the publics trust, but time heals all wounds.
-Just after the Federation is formed, Section 31 is secretly established by parinoid individuals in order to keep the Federation intact at any cost.

By the Way, what ever they do, they should make the Romulans Warp Capable. Even if their War Engines are subpar to Starfleets, it wouldn't be logical to have the romulans such a threat without Warp Technology. They may have inferior Warp engines, but their weapons (Plasma Torpedos, Cloaks) make up for that big time. The Klingons should probably not be involved with this becuase they might have had a war with the Romulans in the past and figure it was best to be kept out of it.

I know, just my theory and pretty war like. Although Major Tom may disagree with me about involving War to the Stat Trek Series, I liked DS(I agree about Voyager, it was getting cheesy on how easy to destroy borg) but I really liked the Dominion War. What ever people think how bad war is, it does play a major role on how societies are formed and how much it impacts history.

[Atrocities]

The only way they could introduce the Romulans is to keep that and any contact top secret. That way it can be explained why Kirk and crew did not know what they looked like.

Look at it this way, if Earth knew that the Romulans of Enterprises era were Vulcan, and given the already tense relationship, they would openly expel the Vulcans as Romulans thus destroying any future relationship with the Vulcans.

Its like keeping people in the dark about the end of our civilization. To tell us would instil panic. Better to keep it quite and let us continue to live our meger lives to the bitter end.

The enterprise D had something like 49 decks, the E has half that. So any ship with a 115 decks would have to be a Star Base in Trek terms.

[ September 01, 2002, 06:56: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

[oleg]

For no any good reason except to please TV audience, ships always transmit captain's videos. If Romulans will sensibly refuse to follow ST broadcasting standards, the long and bloody war when no one ever saw the face of the enemy is more than possible, I would even say likely. BTW, we have problems with Pal, Secam and NTSC Tv encoding back here at home, but when two aliens meet, they all Subscribe to the same video standard ! Of course, TV viewers can still enjoy close-ups of hot romulans denied to Captain Archer http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[disabled]

Here's how I seem the doing the romulans. You know how the vulcans are all a bunch of jerks on Enterprise and the andorians are fighting the vulcans. Suppose the romulans subverted vulcan and the war was trying to drive the romulans off vulcan - but no one knew the romulans were on vulcan.

[Magnum357]

??????? I'm a little confused by that Hadrian. Could you please explain that again. Are you saying that ST:Enterprise should make it where the Romulans occupy or influence Vulcan doctrine? Is that what you mean?

[Magnum357]

Oh, and one other thing. What ever they do on ST:Enterprise, I sure hope they are very careful with this time thing. On that Last episode of Enterprise, they keep messing with this time stuff and that race that somehow everybody knows but no one likes, yet is never mentioned in the future (you know, the guys that can manipulate their bodies by their genetics). I'm really worried Enterprise is messing with the time stuff a little too much. The only episode I have ever saw that dealt with Time stuff well was a couple of TOS episodes and the TNG episode "yesterdays Enterprise" (My personal favorite).

I don't mind ST:Enterprise using time in their story plots, but they need to be very careful because since they use so many different writers to make their stories, inconsistancies seem to occure easily.

But at least it is good to hear that they do want to introduce the Romulans.

[disabled]

Lemme clear up my hopes for the romulan war.

It always ran on my mind that the only way the war could have been that serious and have the romulans remain unknown was to use the vulcans.

The Vulcans and Andorians have this cold war thing going on, maybe fore a good reason. Perhaps the Romulans are secretly manipulating the Vulcans to expand thier empire. Weaken thy enemy before weaken thyself.

Soval always struck me as being on the emotional side.

[Magnum357]

A good possibility. I agree, their have been a few Vulcans that could be Romulans. Why couldn't they infiltrate Vulcan. I guess we will have to wait and see if Paramount will add the Romulan War or not.

[disabled]

the good thing is that they arranged Enterprise to end it's run just before the formation of the Federation.

Perhaps the Romulan war never happened, but was made up to cover up the Temporal Cold War.

[gregebowman]

Well, I don't know any of the SFB history, but from what I have read and understood over the 3 decades I've been a Trekkie, there was no visual contact between the terran (or federation) fleets and the Romulans. Now either the Romulans didn't have that kind of technology at the time (subspace transmissions), or they were very xenophobic and didn't want anyone to know what they looked like. Now, whether they knew they resembled Vulcans or not was unclear, but Berman made up for that in ST:TNG. One of the few things that has always bugged me about the Star Trek franchis is the use of language. It seems like every race speaks English (or Basic or whatever you want to call it) even when they are met for the first time. A univeral translator can only do so much. That's one thing I like about Enterprise, where they have to learn every new language. Maybe that's what caused the first Terran/Federation vs Romulan war; a simple lack of knowledge of each other's language and customs. It would be interesting once they do show this war to show the creation of the Federation. That would bring the Andorians and Tellarites into the treaty, and if I'm not mistaken, Alpha Centauri was the fifth founding race. I can't wait for September 18 to see the new season.

[Magnum357]

Hey, I do have one question about all this Romulan stuff on ST:Enterprise. On the episode "Silent Enemey" (I think that is what the episode is called) when that ship (which seem to have a clocking device, could that have been a Romulan ship? When my brother and I first saw that episode, we figured "hey, maybe these are the Romulans that the crew finally runs into" yet we see some sort of creatures that board the Enterprise and then we thought "man, they sure don't look like Romulans I have ever seen".

I mean, Archer fires a Phase Pistol at them and it didn't even seem to bother them. Could it be possible that it was a Romulan ship and those creaters where etheir allied to the Romulans or controled by the Romulans somehow? Or maybe they were holograms... er.. nah! Granted, a long shot, but the encounter between the the unknown ship and the Enterprise sure did "feel" like a Romulan encounter to me. I'll say one thing, if they are not romulan, they are definitly one of the weirdest races I have ever seeno on Star Trek, even in the 24th Century.

[Major Tom]

However, from what I understand, cloaking was a new technology the Romulans developed when they fought Kirk. Their ships were also sublight vessels at that time as well. For them to keep a Romulan war realistic to Trek history it has to be primarily in space, (as any land battle would show Romulan bodies). Since Romulans were already shown to self destruct instead of surrendering, knowing what they look like will be very difficult. I do hope that they do not get into what DS9 did, and just have a big all consuming war. The war could be just a few episodes long, not a few seasons.

I am also miffed at a lot of what is going on in Enterprise. All of these technologically advanced aliens they are meeting really confuses me. Virtually all of the space that Enterprise is flying through is Federation territory by TOS. However, many aliens they encountered in Enterprise were vastly superior to them. So why would they become members of a federation sponsored by technologically inferior beings? Where did all of these 'new' races go? So far, all that we have seen from any other Star Trek episode are...

1. Humans
2. Vulcans
3. Klingons
4. Andorians
5. Ferrengi (for some reason they decided to introduce the Ferrengi in Enterprise, when they were unknown even when Picard fought them. This makes me feel that the Romulans will be done in a similar way, the crew will know them, but will feel that it is too unimportant to report to Starfleet for some unknown reason).

I may be missing 1 or two, but the vast majority of new life they are meeting is just new and too unbelievably powerful to just dissappear. What's next? The Borg?

[Puke]

Originally posted by Hadrian Tyrael S. Aventine:

Perhaps the Romulan war never happened, but was made up to cover up the Temporal Cold War.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">oh please tell me you just made up that bit about the TCW? please?

I gave up watching enterprise after the first episode (shortly before that, actually) when i became fed up with the lack of continuity not only between trek serise, but from one episode to the next. lack of thought put into story arcs, temporal un-doings of events, and no direction to anything. things only make sense when over zealous fans make up excuses for why the trek universe is not COMPLETELY ridiculous, and then those theories are promptly over-ridden when some new episode comes out.

Tell me there isnt really a temporal cold war in the trek universe! thats the final straw of absurdity that would completely un-do anything any of the old episodes or old serise have ever accomplished. it just does not get any worse than that.

[Magnum357]

Well, can definitly agree with many of your points Puke and Major Tom about a lot of your points. I still wouldn't mind to see though a Romulan War because even though. As much as many Star Trek "purists" would like to shy away from wars, it did Last a few years and was a bloody war (not something that Lasted a couple of weeks and then ended). Doesn't mean ST:Enterprise will even do it, they may actually do what you said Major Tom. Also, although their is much literature that says that the Romulans were only Pre-warp until TOS eara, I really find that hard to beleive. I can't see the Romulans being a Threat to anybody if they didn't have some sort of Warp Capability. Even at Warp 1, it would take Decades to reach some of the Star Systems in the show. In the episodes that introduced the Romulans, I would have sworn that Spock only said the ship they were battling was "Sublight". I never heard anything in that episode (or other episodes) that all Romulan ships were sublight. Maybe only that ship was sublight was because the ships Plasma Torpedo and Clocking Device took up a lot of space on the Ship and the ships generator didn't have enough power to make warp Velocities (low power Warp engines perhaps).

As for this Temporal War stuff, I do agree with you Puke, its beginning to really worry me too. I don't mind Star Trek using Time in episodes, but it can really makes things hairy for explanations. The only episodes I have ever seen in Star Trek that I liked that ever dealt with time was the TNG Episode "Yesterdays enterprise" and a few Episodes of TOS, DS9, and TNG that dealt with time as more of a Random phenomina. Like for example when the Enterprise-D was stuck in a Time Bubble with a Romulan ship and Picard, Gordie, Troi, and Data had to figure it out. Or when the Bozeman was stuck in a Time loop for 80 years. Those kind of episodes intrigue me. When I see crews going back and forth through time and able to change the future in one episode then in another episode can't change the effects of time makes me quite angry at these writers. And this Temperoal War Stuff is sort of a facinating idea for a story, but I can see how this could REALLY mess things up with the whole Star Trek universe. Even Star Trek: First Contact (a great action Star Trek movie) didn't even approch the time thing right. Ok, maybe the Borg do have the ability to travel through time, but that sort of opens a pandoras box! Why not just keep sending another Borg ship to Fed Space (or a whole fleet) to the past? And why was it so easy for the Ent-E to get back to the future? I think Star Trek should just dabble with time only sparadically and make it make sense where it doesn't screw up other episodes in other series.

I think I will still keep watching Enterprsie, but I very Wary lately.

P.S. I do agree with Major Tom about the Ferengi. Even if this did occur that a few Ferengi where around the Core systems in the 22nd century, they are a LOOOOOONNNNGGG way from home. I mean, their homeworld is what... probably 2500 to 3000 light years away??? I guess they got some fine warp engines on this older ships huh? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Magnum357]

Oh, and another thing I'm not all thrilled with the Star Trek show is... well... a lot of things.

Like for example, the design of the ship. It looks like an upside down Akira! Why not just design the ship with some TOS aspects to it. Granted, in the 1960's they didn't have anywhere near the Movie special effect capabilities we have today, but a TOS designed ship with some touchups here and their and superfical redesigning could actually make a fine vessel even for todays shoot'em up kids of the 21st Century.

Also, whats up with these Starfleet Admirals??? They seem like a bunch of whimps compared to the other series. I bet Archer could give orders to them!

And I do agree (yet again) about these races they are meeting. Some are so advanced that you wonder where the heck they are by the 23rd Century! And why do we have the Enterprise heading to Risa in the 22nd Century? Isn't it a bit farther away from earth then that? I was sort of hoping to see Enterprise just dealing with some races and visiting worlds in the nearby area (like Vulcan) and show some of the first Intersteller Colonies of humans in the nearby area (like didn't humans settle on Alpha Centauri). Maybe have first contact with Klingons but I seriously doubt Humans would be able to visit the Homeworld until years later. I don't know how much are NX-01 has covered, but I with a Warp Capability of warp 4 (max average), I find it hard to beleive that Enterprise has traveled farther then a 50 light year radius.

[disabled]

Sadly, the NX-01 design was lifted from the Akira class, Excelsior, and a few others. The designers of the NX-01 say they based in on the p-38 fighter. Yeah, sure.
There was a design similar, and a likely precursor to the 1701 of kirk, but Berman rejected saying Kirk's enterprise looked like a toy.

I've seen some nice fan made ones and even tried at making my own for a while.
http://www.spaceempires.org/gallery/fan/nx01a.gif
http://www.spaceempires.org/gallery/fan/nx01b.gif

Overall, I'm disappointed with Enterprise for the lack of original story telling. We've had what, 5 shuttle crash episodes in the first season, please, even voyager had less than that in the firt season.

The Temporal Cold War was actually another TV series that was going to be made by Braga, but paramount didn't pick up on it so they wrote it into Star Trek. They decided to toss it into Enterprise to silence the people that bash them for not being consistant.

Enterprise is the final deathblow for star trek. I am looking forward to seeing Star Trek Nemesis, but that will most likely be the end of my Trek days. Gene Roddenberry would change his name to Iben Scrood if he saw that [Enterprise] travesty....

In terms of mature, develoepd sci-fi, this is my ranking on a 1-10 scale. 10 is the most grown up.

Farscape : 10
Stargate SG1 : 10
Jerimiah : 8
Odyssey 5 : 9
Andromeda : 1
Enterprise : 2
Earth: Final conflict: 1
Voyager : 1
DS9 : 9
TNG : 9
TOS : 5

[Timstone]

Don't forget Babylon 5!!
It most defently scores a 10.

Oh, and Space: Above and Beyond. Not too perfect, but not bad. I say it scores a 7.

[ September 04, 2002, 15:57: Message edited by: Timstone ]

[geoschmo]

I like Enterprise as a whole. I am a big fan of Scott Bakula, and the acting and writing for Enterprise are way better I think then the first couple TNG seasons. So far it's not been as good as TNG at it's best, or DS9 at it's worst, but if it develops the way the others did I think it will be fine.

However, the Temporal cold war thing is simply aweful. And there are a LOT of dicontinuities from the other series as others have pointed out. I had to give up on those after a couple episodes and simply take it as a separate show. Call it an alternate reality, or whatever. It does make it more enjoyable and tolerable. And you start to see the good points then when you aren't so hung up on those major gaffs.

Geoschmo

[Captain Kwok]

I enjoy Enterprise for the most part, although they've had a few clunkers. I think it's getting off to a better start than some of the other series. I look forward to the second season.

The movie Nemesis looks like it's going to be good with lots of space battles and action. Yay!

[gregebowman]

Well, I for one don't like the shortened length of each episode. If I remember right, each hour of TV is now roughly only 42 minutes, as compared to the original Trek time of 51 minutes. That's a lot of difference in time, and sometimes they have to have something done off-camera to get the episode done in the allotted time. Every once in awhile I think that I'm watching a 2 parter, when actually whatever they're talking about just wasn't filmed. That to me is really annoying. IF they're going to do that, stop trying to tell 2 stories per episode and just tell one story like they did in the original show.

[ September 04, 2002, 18:41: Message edited by: gregebowman ]

[Magnum357]

Hey, I keep forgetting to ask this question about Star Trek, but who is this Berman guy anyway? I've heard a lot of negative things about him. Diddn't he write most of the Episodes of DS9? I liked DS9 personally, but if this is the same guy, why was Voyager and Enterprise such lousy Star Trek shows? I don't know much about the writers of ST so some info about this guy would be appreciated.

You have got to be kidding me! They added the Temperal War stuff from another shows idea??? Talk about trying to use the system!!! They have basically ruined the whole ST universe just so some writers could get their idea across. Pathetic! Actually, I find it hard to beleive how humanity could acheive Time travel within a few centuries when we see a lot of other races in Star Trek (old ones like 500,000 years old) that were still not cabable of traveling through time. What makes us so special anyway?

I agree, ever since Gene Rodenbery died, without his approval/disapproval, Star Trek has been on very Wary ground. Doesn't his wife have any say on these episodes? On the other hand, even if she did, maybe she has been approving this episodes and series.

here are my list of favorite shows

Babylon 5: 10
DS9: 9
TNG: 8
VOY: 1
TOS: 5
SG1: 8
Farscape: 6

[gregebowman]

Berman was Roddenberry's assistant or producer or something like that. When Roddenberry died, Berman was picked to head the Star Trek franchise. He was the one who developed, along with others, all of the spin-off shows, DS9, Voyager and Enterprise. I don't think Majel Barrett has much influence over the shows, other than providing the computer voices. I stopped reading all of the production info on the shows, so I really don't know more than that. There's probably some die hard Trekkie who could tell you much more than that.

[disabled]

Berman and Braga are the current executive producers of the entire trek franchise. Berman was hand picked by Roddenberry to lead the franchise.
On DS9, he handled the studio-production link and gave the writers free range to do what they want (something forbidden on nearly all shows even now). In response to the poor viewing results of DS9, voyager was a total clampdown.

Majel was pretty much run off the series after DS9. Majel has also stopped her involvement with Tribune Entertainment after they destroyed EFC and Andromeda. I think all she gets is the meager royalties from the various franchises roddenberry made.

The Temporal Cold War is just a gimmic to attact the x-file viewers now. As a seperate show (and universe), it would have been interesting to see.

Babylon 5 : 8
Space Above and Beyond : 3
I just never felt comfortable with the Overwhelming aspects of christian religion (while totally ignoring all others) in babylon 5, but it gains points for perfect handling. Space:A&B suffers from the slipping of nazism into the series.

In the TOS era, TV shwos ran around 50 minutes, in the TNG to Voy era they ran about 45.
In Enterprise, the episodes run roughly 38 minutes.

I could accept everything going on in Trek as an alternate reality type stuff except for one thing. Gene Roddenberry wrote the series as what humanity should be in this reality.

[Major Tom]

My sci-fi television shows rank as follows (when it comes to space war like shows like these).

Babylon 5: 10 (except for that Last season)

Farscape: 11 (either you love this show, or hate it)

TOS: 10 (I can watch any episode of this, simple plot, character oriented)

TNG: 8 (was excellent during the middle, early too cheezy, late too boring [signs of what to come after Rodenberry died])

DS9: 5 (was ok, but definite rip off of B5 epic-battles, and done too poorly)

VOY: 1 (never watched this beyond the odd episode)

Earth Final conflict: 0 (knew some people who worked on the set, it was very cheaply done, even from behind the scenes)

Third Wave: 8 (got caught up in this, only to realize it was cancelled the year before)

Stargate SG1: 9 (never watched this until there was nothing on during a particular boring part of the day, started watching it, and it really caught on. Simple 1 topic plots, character development, added applicable humour at parts, same 4 people, keeps continuity in plot. Really reminded me of TOS)

G vs. E (good vs. evil): 9 (sort of a sci-fi, all about dead demon hunters (basically neutral people working their way into heaven after they die) done in a 1970's style, yet again cancelled)

The absolute best thing that ever came out of the Star Trek universe, according to me, is 'Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan'. It was an unbelievably bad script, but was done very well. To me, this is what Star Trek is. ONE main plot, the starship all by itself solving its problem, action, using skill over technology [what star trek was until late TNG decided it was technology over skill].

Realistically, Star Trek died with Rodenberry. The rest are merely cover-bands or Elvis impersonators.

[tesco samoa]

G vs E was a great show....

[dogscoff]

I'll throw my Ratings in here. Maybe someone should start a poll?

B5: 9.5 - just about perfectly executed plot arc. A bit dodgy in the first series, and some distinctly wooden acting in places, but overall a near- perfect blend of space opera and personal drama.

Farscape: 8 Good characters, decent plots and a break from the same old same old "guys in uniforms uphold human values of truth & justice". A bit episodic but very fresh and imaginative. Loses marks for not having a handy TLA http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

DS9: 7 The best of the Treks. The competition from Bab5 did it a lot of good, IMHO when it started to introduce politics & (gasp!) story arcs.

TNG: 6 A bit cheesy & episodic by today's standards, but I remember it looking fantastic when it first came out. It really did a lot for sci-fi at that time. Oh, and Patrick Stewart is the most convincing starship Captain ever.

SG1: 5 Nothing amazingly good about it, but nothing wrong with it either. Good for a Sunday afternoon if it's on TV. If I watched more of it I could probably get into it.

TOS: 4.5 Silly, silly, silly. Hopelessly outdated, with hardly any continuity and shallow cowboy characters. You can hardly class it as sci-fi, but it did something amazing for the genre and it gets points for that.

VOY: 4 Formulaic and dull. This did nothing new or interesting, it just gave everyone what they expected while pandering to the lowest possible denominator. Just about watchable, I suppose.

Enterprise: ?Never watched it. Don't intend to.

Space A&B: 2 Overly militaristic techno gun-porn. It's a while since I watched any but I remember thinking it was way too far to the right, and not in an ironic "Starship Troopers" way. It had a few moments of watchability, but by & large, unentertaining crud.

Andromeda: 2 Pretty crap so far, it reminds me more of that ****ty space precinct than anything else, although I confess I've only seen 3 or 4 episodes. Far too glossy for me. The Captain badly needs a haircut.

And for my "whatever happened to..?" entry, I nominate the excellent "Alien:Nation", about a few million of aliens who get stranded on earth and become the new ethnic underclass. There was a buddy cop element, and some realy good characters. I seem to remember they left a series a cliffhanger then cancelled the show! NOOOOO!

[ September 05, 2002, 16:39: Message edited by: dogscoff ]

[disabled]

I agree, G vs E was good. Maybe a 5, but only loow because I missed a lot of episodes in it.

Seven Days: I would about a 6. Lost it's power in the Last season.

SU2: 4. Needed work. Reminded me a lot of G vs E.

There was many other subplots to Star Trek II, it wasn't single minded.
- The crew is getting older and moving on in life (echoed in ST6:TUC)
- New crew is coming in
- Can't cheat death
- Great things and inventions are often preverted into weapons.
- Scientist vs Soldiers
- Things that might have been.

The director handled it so perfectly, it all meshed together into one plot. Similar to great Trek episodes like "city on the edge of forever, Doomsday machine, and even Yesterday's Enterprise"

A few of those points were carried over by John Logan for Star Trek Nemesis, and for good reason.

The Next Generation is 15 years old, and riker is still a first officer???

For those that want a funny tidbit into trek, Ensign Hawk in Star Trek: First Contact was supposed to be the first gay character on star trek. The scenes showing that was edited out....

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by Hadrian Tyrael S. Aventine:
I could accept everything going on in Trek as an alternate reality type stuff except for one thing. Gene Roddenberry wrote the series as what humanity should be in this reality.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What I meant by that was Enterprise as an alternate reality to TOS or TNG. All of them are in our future, so you can say any one of them could be our reality to come. It's just that when they start messing around and have these inconsistancies between series, and even between different episodes in the same series I have stopped trying to crowbar them all and make them fit one single timeline. The writers obviously don't care about that, including Roddenbery before he died, so why should I? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

For those that want a funny tidbit into trek, Ensign Hawk in Star Trek: First Contact was supposed to be the first gay character on star trek. The scenes showing that was edited out....<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Maybe the first gay regular character (although I am not so sure that Bashir wasn't just chasing Dax as a cover. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ) but one of them (Voyager I think) had an episode where they visited a planet where everyone was gay. One of the alien scientists fell in love with one of the starfleet crew members of the opposite sex and it was all very scandalous. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif Her people ended up "reprograming" her or something if I recall correctly.

Geoschmo

[dogscoff]

Maybe the first gay regular character (although I am not so sure that Bashir wasn't just chasing Dax as a cover. ) but one of them (Voyager I think) had an episode where they visited a planet where everyone was gay. One of the alien scientists fell in love with one of the starfleet crew members of the opposite sex and it was all very scandalous. Her people ended up "reprograming" her or something if I recall correctly.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That was TNG. The aliens were all androgynous (sp?) and it one of them fell for Riker. The fool. There were some nice touches to that ep, actually, although it got a bit silly towards the end.

It's interesting that Trek should shy away from something like the gay issue. The first ever episode of TOS was ground-breaking (and scandalous) at the time for showing an inter-racial kiss. I guess nowadays they're too scared they'll upset all those fans who tune in just to see 7 of 9 or whatever other gratuitous T&A fodder they have in Enterprise.

[geoschmo]

Personally I'd like the next Trek series to be a Monty-Pythonesqe take on TOS. Like the Life of Brian, Trek style. From the perspective of a captain and crew in some backwater part of the galaxy. Use the same sets and costumes from TOS. And make them all perfectly aware of the Enterprise and the "Great Captain Kirk" getting all the good press.

It would be a hoot!

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Geoschmo

[Magnum357]

Well, this subject got just a tad off topic! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif LOL...

One more question I do have about this Nemisis Movie. I don't want anybody to tell me any spoilers, but is this going to be the Last show of the TNG crew? I've heard on a few occassions that it could be.

I guess it would make sense too if it was the Last show of the TNG cast, 15 years and Riker still won't make captain??? Maybe he is scared of the big chair huh?

[Deathstalker]

"For those that want a funny tidbit into trek, Ensign Hawk in Star Trek: First Contact was supposed to be the first gay character on star trek. The scenes showing that was edited out...."

They carried over the plot to a recent StarTrek novel where you get to know the character quite well. (takes place just before First Contact).

And I'm surprised no one has mentioned the greatest sci-fi series of them all. Dr.Who http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif (rates a 10 in my book, at least the Tom Baker years do.)

That and alot of the best sci-fi is Animae in my mind (StarBlazers, Battle of the Planets, RoboTech, etc).

And another 'funny' trek tidbit. IIRC the Babylon5 show was pitched to the Trek guys first and they didn't like the idea, so they went on and made B5 themselves. Then of course Trek had its B5 clone (which is DS9 of course, the similarities are incredible!). Mind you of all the ST series I think I liked DS9 the most, Sisco (however you spell it) was an amazing actor (yes, I can't recall his real name right now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif ). But I did get real tired of the Kira/Odo thing and the fact that Worf was an 'intregal part of DS9' until a NextGen movie or novel came out where he was 'suddenly free' to save the day with his old Enterprise comrades.

[Magnum357]

And another thing, I resent people saying that ST2 was single minded. It was probably one of the finest Star Trek shows ever made!

I agree with Hadrian, all those points it talked about in the movie made it really feel that you were on board the Enterprise in real life. When I first watched it (and even today), it felt real and beleiveble.

And if it is soooo simplistic, maybe that is whats missing about Star Trek anymore. They try to make it too complex so it ruins the story.

[Magnum357]

Hey Deathstalker, are you sure about that with B5 and DS9? I may be wrong on this, but I think you might be a little confused. I heard their was a bit of contraversy about which story was written first, B5 or DS9, but I never heard anything that suggested that the writer for B5 approached Paramount to include his story arc to Star Trek.

[gregebowman]

The absolute best thing that ever came out of the Star Trek universe, according to me, is 'Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan'. It was an unbelievably bad script, but was done very well. To me, this is what Star Trek is. ONE main plot, the starship all by itself solving its problem, action, using skill over technology [what star trek was until late TNG decided it was technology over skill].

Realistically, Star Trek died with Rodenberry. The rest are merely cover-bands or Elvis impersonators.[/QB]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The one thing about Wrath of Kahn I could never digest is the fact you don't know who Kahn's followers are. They're too young to be the original followers, yet look to old to be children. The only one who could have been an original member was Joquain, and he obviously not the same actor who was in "Space Seed". And again, he looks too young to be Joquain. So what's the deal?

And I agree. I think the spirit of Trek died when Roddenberry died.

[Ragnarok]

"I don't want anybody to tell me any spoilers, but is this going to be the Last show of the TNG crew? I've heard on a few occassions that it could be. "

Ok, to say this and not spoil shouldn't be too hard to do. But if you watch the trailer it says "A generations final journy..." if you take that and add into the rumors about it and yes this will be the final movie with the TNG cast. It's disappointing to me as this was my favorite cast of them all.

"I guess it would make sense too if it was the Last show of the TNG cast, 15 years and Riker still won't make captain??? Maybe he is scared of the big chair huh?"

Yeah, 15 years has gone by quick. Of course I don't remember the first 5 of that but hey it's all good. I've seen just about every episode that TNG had. And I wasn't even old enough to know what's going on when it started. (re-runs help with that department) I still watch re-runs on TNN.

But yeah, maybe Riker is scared of the big chair. But if you recall during the TV series that many-a-time he was offered the job of captian. But he didn't take it due to the fact that he loved the Enterprise and John-Luc. So looking at that my guess is that he won't take that job due to just that, he loves the ship and crew too much to leave and take command of his own ship.

[DirectorTsaarx]

Originally posted by Magnum357:
One more question I do have about this Nemisis Movie. I don't want anybody to tell me any spoilers, but is this going to be the Last show of the TNG crew? I've heard on a few occassions that it could be.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I've heard that it WAS going to be the Last TNG movie, but the actors had such a good time making it that they decided they'd be willing to do another one...

BTW - My opinion about Captain Kirk (and William Shatner, too) has seesawed a bit; he became something of a caricature for a while, but I think Shatner himself has become more interesting recently, and watching the old movies & shows has gotten more enjoyable... well, except for Star Trek 5... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif I agree that Picard was a much more believable captain, but Kirk was fun to watch. Janeway was practically manic-depressive; one moment she'd be bending over backwards to accommodate some idiot alien or whiny crew member, and then she'd be firing a full spread of torps & phasers at an unarmed vessel. Cisco, well, I liked him as Hawk in the old Spenser series; and I have to admit I enjoyed some of the "fluff" episodes in DS9. Real life has prevented me from watching Enterprise...

[geoschmo]

Director, regarding Janeway, haven't you ever heard that it's woman's perogative to change her mind? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[capnq]

15 years and Riker still won't make captain??? <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The future Version of Riker in "All Good Things" was an admiral.

[Ragnarok]

"I've heard that it WAS going to be the Last TNG movie, but the actors had such a good time making it that they decided they'd be willing to do another one..."

That'd be cool if they did another one. Although just because they are willing to do another one doesn't mean that they will be in another one. I believe I heard some place that Brent Spiner (Data) was the only one to say that his role in the movies and shows has gotten boring. But that's just what I heard. It probably isn't true.

[Ragnarok]

Originally posted by capnq:
The future Version of Riker in "All Good Things" was an admiral.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That is true. I think once Picard is too old to captain a ship he'll move on. But as long as Picard is in control of the Enterprise then Riker will always be #1. IMHO.

[disabled]

Actually, several trek cast members were surprised by the tagline. But I think that's required since Nemesis paid out 20million to picard and data each in salary. The film's budget was 70million. They said they might make a few mixed crew or even an entirely new crew for the next films or, if this one really makes money, a sequel to nemesis....
They said that about insurrection and even filmed and alternate ending.......

Spiner said he was tired of the role and felt he couldn't move forward, so they wrote him out for good. They wrote in the character B-9 incase spiner wanted to return.

As for Riker, he said he was after the Enterprise... Maybe they should have wrote a subplot for riker working with shizon.... Anyways, riker gets to move on.

B5 v. DS9 scandal... JMS pitched the series to a few paramount executives who turned it down. A year later, just before B5 went into production, DS9 was announced. The basically, the claim is DS9 stole B5's basic story outline. There is some merit to the claim, then again there isn't. B5 had 4 wars in 5 season. DS9 had 3 wars in 7 season. Also, JMS didn't pitch it to the Trek guys. The people responsible for the other crappy UPN sci-fi got the pitch

[ June 16, 2003, 05:19: Message edited by: General Talashar ]

[Magnum357]

Well, I think its good to hear that at least the possibility of other movies is still hopeful. I just hope if they do continue on the Star Trek Saga, plan it right and basically forget about Voyager at least. Their best bet would be to relate any future movies to DS9 and TNG. I guess we will have to wait and see, but another movie probably will not happen for at least a few years. Wasn't Inserection released in 1998?

Hey gregebowman,

About your ST2 question, I do agree, that is sort of a problem about the young people. The only theory I could think of is maybe that the entire crew of the sleeper ship were Genetically enhanced by age too. Maybe they could live longer than normal humans. I know, sounds like a Trekkie theory to explain another inconsistancy, but I have no clue what other theory explains the young followers of Kahn.

P.S. I could be wrong about this, but I heard that in ST2, their was an entire chapter of how Kahns crew took over the Reliant. I heard it was a lot of hand to hand combat and killing. I guess they cut it from the final cut because it ran too long. On the other hand, maybe they cut it because it was rediculas because even the Reliant had a heavily armed security force. Unless they were caught comepletely by suprised, Genetic Enhancements wouldn't protect you from Phasers.

[ September 06, 2002, 07:22: Message edited by: Magnum357 ]

[Major Tom]

You didn't actually get to see everyone in the TOS episode that was supposed to be from Khan's sleeper ship. So there 'might' have been some younger siblings or child prodegies (these genetically enhanced leaders probably wanted genetically enhanced successors). Yet this might also be 'filler'. Checkov was not a part of the Star Trek cast when Khan was originally in TOS, but for some reason Checkov and Khan knew eachother in Star Trek II.

These plot holes are technically small (you would really have to know your stuff to see the holes, as I had no problem with the movie until someone told me about all of the little details). When you compare it to the plot holes done recently, Star Trek II's are more explainable, as they only affected certain small bits of plot and diologue. The fact that some of Khan's followers were young, and Checkov knew Khan when he should not have does not really detract from Star Trek, as they are just minor points.

What gets me about DS9 is that it does not appear to look planned. I kept on seeing changes done to improve Ratings (adding Worf when TNG ended), having Sisco shave his head and get that gotee to look tougher. To me, the big Dominion war looks like they could not think of a way to improve Ratings, and decided to go the war route. The first encounter with the Dominion was good, when that Galaxy Class ship was destroyed. However, soon after they got the Defiant (like the Whitestar from B5) and suddenly there were hundreds of starfleet, klingon and romulan spaceships blowing up hundreds of dominion and cardassian ships. Star Trek was not about hundreds of ships fighting hundreds more, battles were usually between, at most, a few dozen. The more battles, and the more ships involved, the less personal the fighting got. Previously, to defeat an enemy ship took cunning, time and effort (it was a big deal to come up against a single Romulan warbird). DS9 made destroying any ship common place, and really got boring as all of their battles appeared to be EXACTLY the same.

B5's battles were interesting, as they dealt with different opponents, different tactics and such. The big battle between the Shadow, Vorlons and the Alliance was reminiscent of a typical DS9 batte, but this was B5's high-point in the war, and of course it must be big. Most other B5 battles were between handfulls of ships, where killing just one Shadow vessel was an amazing feat.

DS9 and VOY just ruined my impressions on what Star Trek was. Star Trek had wars (all the way back to TOS), but these were not the all consuming plot driver that DS9 got into and VOY jumped into as well. Also, half of their plots were the very outdated 'it was just a dream and never happened' with all of the alternate-dimension (they stole this from TOS and beat it until it was as boring as the borg) and time travelling that was commonplace.

[thorfrog]

That's too bad you feel that way. I thought the Dominion War idea was excellent. It brought my attention back to the show. I've always wanted to see what large fleet actions would look like in Star Trek. Those Last few seasons really shined. Besides, I thought the show show was headed for a large war confrontation when it started.

[gregebowman]

Well, I liked seeing the space battles. to me, it spiced up the show. I know Roddenberry wouldn't have liked them, but it's neat seeing ships blowing each other up from time to time. My only thought on this is that where are the Organians in the 24th century? Like they don't exist at that point in time, or are they having their own conflict with the Q or the Prophets that allows all of this conflict to go on?

[Magnum357]

Good question gregebowman,

I've wondered that myself. Maybe your right that Q, the Prophets, or something else is fighting against the Organains and they have their own problems right now. Hey, why couldn't Gods fight amongs themselves!

I agree too about DS9. I thought it was a good idea for DS9 to introduced the Dominion War. Granted, Gene most likely would not have approved the idea, but like I said before, Wars have a huge impact on how society and culture are made in the world. Also, DS9 did approach issues that Star Trek wouldn't go into. Like for example the Vulcan killing people with a Gun and Dax had to think like a killer. Granted, sort of a copy of Silence of the Lambs, but I find it just rediculas that people in the Federation (or especially earth) don't kill each other anymore (to me, thats a Rodenberry Fantasy). And I really liked the Episode where Sisko sets up the Romulans to enter the War. Even in the star Trek Universe, their has to shades of Grey.

The Battles where neat to me too. Ok, Major Tom has a point that ship versus ship combat gave Star Trek its own flare in TOS an the Movies, but when war occurs, its just not common for ships to spread out all over the place. In wars, I would a have to imagine Fleet versus Fleet battles are the norm. Ok, ships were getting destroyed fairly easily in the show, but its not like the battles seen showed everything. I'm sure the Space Battle Feilds where tens of thousands of Kiliometers wide and when several ships concentrate fire on one ship, chances are the one ship is going to get hammered easily.

[QuarianRex]

The one thing that always got me about Trek, compared to other sci-fi, was that there were never any consequences, nothing had an effect. In TOS and TNG the crew faced invincible foes and world changing problems every episode and yet solved them in such a way that they always broke even, nothing in the universe actually changed.

Granted, this fit well with the utopian starfleet image, the enlightened olympians handing down judgement and meddling with mere mortals as they see fit, but is it human? I know that the idea was to show the best that humans could be, but it ignored the fact that not everyone will agree with you.

This is why I liked DS9 so much. Here starfleet had to deal with equals who completely disagreed with them, instead of merely handling their inferiors (whether it was technologically, intellectually, or morally inferior). DS9 showed that even in utopia there are those who are willing to take what you hold dear.

[disabled]

Originally posted by Hadrian Tyrael S. Aventine:
Just to jump back to the Star Trek two lot whole of chekov, how do we know chekov wasn't on the ship when Kahn was around (maybe a scene that we didn't see). Sulu started as a science office on the ship before becoming the helmsman, same with other cast members that came on after the first episodes were made.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Good point, this could very well be the truth of the matter. While not canon, it fits the bill

[ June 16, 2003, 05:17: Message edited by: General Talashar ]

[Magnum357]

Good point Hadrian. Who is to say that Chekov wasn't doing some Academy inturnship work on the Enterprise? If I recall, Cadets are required to serve about a starship for a year or two before they graduate right? Maybe Chekov was on board when Kahn tried to take over but was in a non-senior officer role. He did have Security experience, maybe he started out with the Security detachment on board Enterprise. This would work out nice too because Kahn did try to forcably take over Enterprise. Maybe he was part of the Security Forces involved to defeat Kahn!

[geoschmo]

Maybe Checkov was working the night shift that season. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Urendi Maleldil]

What ever happened to Special Agent Gary Seven and his kind? His super high-tech superiors seem to have disappeared.

[disabled]

Gary seven was supposed to be the first trek spinoff.

The networks felt a series like that wouldn't work - even with an xfiles twist...

[gregebowman]

Originally posted by Hadrian Tyrael S. Aventine:
Just to jump back to the Star Trek two lot whole of chekov, how do we know chekov wasn't on the ship when Kahn was around (maybe a scene that we didn't see). Sulu started as a science office on the ship before becoming the helmsman, same with other cast members that came on after the first episodes were made.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That reminds me of a joke Walter Koenig (Chekov) told about this situation. I don't remember exactly how it went, but it was something to the effect that Kahn was waiting to go to the head (that's the bathroom to you who don't speak navy) and apparantly had to wait awhile. when the door opened, Chekov comes out and Kahn says "I'll remember you".

[Magnum357]

?????????????

Sorry, but I don't get it.

[DirectorTsaarx]

Originally posted by geoschmo:
Director, regarding Janeway, haven't you ever heard that it's woman's perogative to change her mind? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Good point. But Janeway really took it to extremes... then again, maybe warp travel wreaks havoc on certain biological cycles and Janeway was in a permanent state of PMS (Oops - I meant UMS, or Ugly Mood Swings http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif )...

As for large fleet actions in DS9, what about the fight at Wolf 359 in TNG? Granted, the battle itself wasn't really shown, but the aftermath certainly was. So TNG really set up the concept, DS9 just ran with it...

[Major Tom]

The battle at Wolf 359 had about 40 federation ships engage the Borg, and it was hinted at that this loss of vessels was a major blow to Starfleet. However, DS9 had hundreds of starships lost per engagement but starfleet did not collapse (plus making the borg threat look silly). I could believe that there were hundreds of vessels in Starfleet, as the universe is large, but wouldn't the stability of the Federation suffer with virtually every ship at one part of their territory? The attrition rate of the Federation, Klingons, Cardassians and Romulans was enourmous. It turned into a battle of numbers (i.e., "we lost 400 ships, but destroyed 1000 of theirs" as in DS9) instead of a battle of wits (i.e., "we were heavily damaged but their ship was crippled" as of TOS and TNG).

Wolf 359 was thought of as a major battle in Starfleet history, as all other battles hinted at in the series also revolved around only a handful of ships (the Cardassian war mentioned a few individual ship battles, Klingon/Romulan battles like Khitomer were between less then a dozen total vessels, even in the alternate future with the Enterprise C there was a battle between 5 ships at the end). During the Klingon Civil war, the task force set up under the command of Picard was of around 20-25 ships, all that could be spared to guard this very important region of space. TNG kept ship numbers at reasonable rates and still kept battles interesting, especially when it was down to the attrition of 1 vs. 1.

Even B5 had limits on fleet size, as when the Alliance went to liberate Earth, the Earth Defense force had about 30 or so Destroyers guarding Mars, which is a pretty strong force in that 'universe'. DS9 would have been a lot better had they copied more of the good aspects of B5 instead of just the premise and go on weird and detracting tangents.

[ September 10, 2002, 05:00: Message edited by: Major Tom ]

[Ragnarok]

Not to get too OT with what's being talked about right now. But I used to hate B5. I would watch 5 minutes of the show and be bored to death so I'd turn it. But tonight for first time I watched B5 Third Space. It was on sci-fi channel. I actually enjoyed it. It was an interesting plot and storyline. The battle towards the end was great too. I still prefer ST over B5 anyday but I opened up a little bit to B5 just from watching that 2 hour movie.

[Magnum357]

Hey Ragnarok, ya Third Space was a pretty good movie. And it kinda hinted at Ancient B5 history too. Great Battle scences aswell. Glad to hear you liked the movie. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

To Major Tom,

Ok, you do have a point about the Fleet sizes in DS9. From my understanding, Federation Territory (not to confuse explored territory which is about 10% of the Galaxy) only about 5% is Fed right? Even at 5% is a vast amount of Space. I suppose DS9 assumed that with such vast territory, Starfleets actual number of ships could range in the Thousands. But I do agree with you too that Wolf359 was stated that 40+ ships was a large chunk of Starfleets forces. It would have been better (and maybe graphically easier) if DS9 dealt with fleets of about 1/5 to 1/10 was stated. Like for example, in the DS9 episode "The Sacrifice of Angels", it was stated that the Federation fleet numbered in at 600 and the Dominions Fleet was about 1200 or 1300. Instead of these large numbers, they probably should have made it 60 Fed ships and and about 125 Dominion Vessels in the episode. That would at least keep it in Wolf359 perspective. Also, since the Federation is such a vast amount of space, and since during wars individual ships seem to cling together during wars, its very plausable that their could be a lot of fleets spread out along the front lines (say maybe 6+ fleets of 50 to 75 ships).

On the other hand, when we hear 40 ships at Wolf359, maybe most of these ships where very advanced starships (like Ent-D era vessels) while in the episode "Sacrifice of Angels" the vast majority of ships where old vessels like tons of Miranda class vessels. After all, I recall reading that Starfleet had a huge number of Mirandas (and some other similar vessels) left over from the 23rd century. They may have even recommishened old, worn out vessels that where etheir in mothballs or obsolete. Hey, they had to do something, the Dominions capability to mass produce ships (even though they were not the most sturdies vessels out their), worried the Feds and had to get as many ships on the front lines as possible.

But I do agree, it would have worked just as well if the writers just made the Fleets etheir 1/5th or 1/10th the number.

[geoschmo]

I read some interesting stuff onetime on this. It wasn't "canon" information but it sounded plausible. Some of it was from the Trek books that come out every month. They produce like 3 or four books every month by different authors. Some are good, some not so good. A lot of Trekkies don't even acknowledge them, but they can be a good source of "semi-canon" information.

Anyway, the stuff I read was on a website and I don't know if the guy made it up or read it somewhere what but he had this explanation that the Federation started a massive construction buildup after the first meeting between the Borg and the Enterprise. He said that while a lot of ships got bLasted at Wolf 359, a lot more were in the pipeline, and that that disaster caused an even bigger buildup. That basically the Federation was already producing ships at a wartime rate because of the constant threat of Borg invasion and that this all just happened to coincide with the war against the Dominion.

Geoschmo

[disabled]

Originally posted by Hadrian Tyrael S. Aventine:
Remember, the US fleet went from like 13 carriers at the start of WW2 to over 100 by the middle of WW2.

I suspect it was cheaper for the Federation to crank out smaller ships faster that have already been designed.

Larger ships like the Galaxy class became massive troopships with extra transporters isntalled and the crew levels left wide open.

Meanwhile, ships like the Ambassadors and the era of ships between Ambassador and Galaxy were either cut down in the opening wave of the war or have been exiled to maintain Federation borders.

Hey, don't be surprised if the dominion managed to push right up to earth's orbit that the Federation would start attacking with old ICBM's and maybe the NX-01. But if that happened, I would stop watching trek.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Very true, I recall seeing an interview that explained why more and more insane shis appearing too. A lot of ships were cobbled together from other ships to save time or something like that.

[ June 16, 2003, 05:14: Message edited by: General Talashar ]

[Magnum357]

Hadrian does bring up a point that at the beginning of WWII their where very few Carriers in the US arsnenal. By the End of the war, we had like over a hundred, but most of them where small "jeep carriers" (converted Freighters to launch fighters from) and were not exactly as capable as the larger Feet carriers.

I think sense the Founders don't really care how many of their Gem hedar soldiers die, I would think then that most of their small ships (maybe even their large ones too) where probaby pretty simple vessels to produce and my not be much of a match one on one. Like for example, its probably a good bet that a Galaxy Class starship could defeat a Dominion Crusier, but possible that the Dominion could produce 2 or 3 Crusiers much easier then the Feds could.

[gregebowman]

Originally posted by geoschmo:
I read some interesting stuff onetime on this. It wasn't "canon" information but it sounded plausible. Some of it was from the Trek books that come out every month. They produce like 3 or four books every month by different authors. Some are good, some not so good. A lot of Trekkies don't even acknowledge them, but they can be a good source of "semi-canon" information.

Geoschmo<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yeah, I'm one of those Trekkies who hardly ever read a Star Trek novel, until it's from Peter David or someone of that caliber. I really like the ghost-written Shatner books. They don't coordinate anything between any of the authors, and if you could track down all of the stardates, I wouldn't be surprised if 2 different novels were using the same stardates in different parts of the galaxy. That's why I like reading the Star Wars books. Not only do they get their blessing from George Lucas, but they even include all of the (Dark Horse) comics in their overall story line. Now, I must admit that I'm not particularly happy with the current storyline with the Vong, but I'll read a Star Wars book over a Star Trek book anytime. Besides, George Lucas has said that anything written is canon, unless he specifically changes it in a movie. Paramount says that unless you see it in a movie or an episode, it's not canon. Which one would you prefer?

[ September 11, 2002, 02:17: Message edited by: gregebowman ]

[Atrocities]

I remember having this very same discussion over two years ago on a long since dead Star Trek fan site. How did the Federation arm so quickly after the loss at Wolf 359 to the 600 plus ships of each fleet in the Dominion War?

The official Star Trek answer is refurbished mothballed ships, rapid development and construction of new ships, and purchasing of ships built by other parties to Federation standards.

Until the Borg attack the Federation was a research and exploration focused society with few ships for fighting. They had in fact had an on going conflict with the Cardassians as described in the 4th season episode called "The Wounded" where we were introduced to both the Cardassians and the Nebula class star ship.

Following the Borg attack the Federation began a crash course in ship design and construction, and from that the Akira, Sovereign, steamrunner, intrepid, and defiant class ships were born.

Think of it as well, like the beginnings of a SEIV game. At first you’re dedicated to exploration, until you meet a hostile enemy, then you begin researching new weapons, and ship designs. You then begin a rapid production of these ships in anticipation of war.

That is essentially what happened in the Trek universe.

[Ragnarok]

Massive bump. But for a good reason. The new trailer for Nemesis is out. It looks even better in this. Although what it looks like it they might trash the Enterprise. Which sucks. But none the less it looks like a awesome movie. Go HERE! {Link} (http://www.apple.com/trailers/paramount/star_trek_nemesis/STX_trailer_large.html)

[Fyron]

I just saw the preview for the season premier of Enterprise next week, and I'll be damned if I didn't just see a Romulan ship. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Atrocities]

Yep. And it comes with a time bomb too.

[Ragnarok]

Originally posted by Atrocities:
Yep. And it comes with a time bomb too.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wow, you guys were right (I didn't doubt you one bit FYI) but I just saw it myself. Nice bomb and a Romulan ship at the same time. Should be an intersting show.

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
I just saw the preview for the season premier of Enterprise next week, and I'll be damned if I didn't just see a Romulan ship. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hmmm, that is next weeks episode, but it's not the season premiere. The season premire was Last week. It was a continuation of the cliffhanger episode from the end of Last season. And then we had another new episode this week. The Romulan show next week by my count is episode 3 for season two.

Of course as always, local listings may vary. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Geoschmo

[ September 27, 2002, 12:02: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

[gregebowman]

I couldn't believe it either when at the end of the trailer for next week's episode the Last word spoken said "Romulan". It's also interesting to note that at the season premiere, Archer found a book about the Romulan Star Empire and the future guy (forgot his name) told him not to read it. I'm really surprised that they're bringing the Romulans in this early. I would have imagined a 3rd of 4th season appearance. to me, this seems too soon. But, hey, I'm not running the show.

Speaking of this week's episode, I liked it. It was interesting to see how 3 stranded Vulcans could exist in the 1950's (wasn't Sputnik launched in 1959?). I would love for them to do a follow-up on the Vulcan who wanted to stay, especially if he ever ran into Gary Seven. And what really surprised me about the episode is that in the history of some 500+ episodes, they did not show the entire case. Only 3 cast members were shown. That's something that I liked in B5. If the storyline didn't include a character, he or she wasn't shown. I wish they'd do that more often.

[Fyron]

Originally posted by geoschmo:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
I just saw the preview for the season premier of Enterprise next week, and I'll be damned if I didn't just see a Romulan ship. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hmmm, that is next weeks episode, but it's not the season premiere. The season premire was Last week. It was a continuation of the cliffhanger episode from the end of Last season. And then we had another new episode this week. The Romulan show next week by my count is episode 3 for season two.

Of course as always, local listings may vary. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Geoschmo</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well... I don't pay too much attention to Enterprise. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Ragnarok]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:

Well... I don't pay too much attention to Enterprise. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Neither do I. I've seen a grand total of 4 episodes I believe. After Voyager I just couldn't get into Enterprise. To whole back in time didn't catch my eye though. It's interesting but I doubt I'll get into the series that much. Hopefully after Enterprise (I'm guessing 7 years as usual) they come out with a good creative show that I will watch. But right now I'm just anxious to see the movie come out.

[disabled]

So far it seems like Enterprise is starting to shake the wet-dream story habits of Voyager. I mean, hell, they covered thier 18-34 demographics tool with a fannel shirt!

Now if they can just fire that thief Braga.... He's the key suspect and aggressor in the downfall of trek. Not Berman, Berman is a guy that knows how to make money. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Magnum357]

Who the heck is Braga???? I have never heard of him.

[Atrocities]

Brandon Braga is, was, one of the producers for Voyager, and is "the" producer for Enterprise.

He is a guy who Gene R. brought on board, and who knew nothing about Star Trek, and was at one point the most hated person in star trek, but who has redeemed himself and proven that he is the man with the plan for Trek. (According to hard-core trekkers, not my opinion.) (I think the guy takes himself to seriously, and is a little back stabbing arrogant weasel.) But he has brown nosed his way into one of the top spots at Paramount and there he will remain.

He also wrote Mission Impossible II.

Oh ya, you know 7 of 9? Well thats his girl friend. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ September 28, 2002, 08:18: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

[disabled]

Braga was hired as a writer and did okay on it. After Roddenerry died, Braga started to move up, cleaning out all the old timers and experianced writers.

[Magnum357]

I see. Why the heck do that? Good help is hard to find these days. Who exactly do you mean by old timers?