Sheild Regen V?

[Skulky]

Are there any advantages to sheild regen V over IV? It seems to be an extra 10 kt in size for only an extra 5 pts in regeneration so in the space of 2 v's i could fit 3 iv's and generate 60 pts as opposed to 50.

[Fyron]

Shield Regenerators aren't very useful to begin with, esp. in larger fleet battles.

[TerranC]

Shiled regenerators are only helpful to Battleship and above, and on ship to ship skirmishes. Fleet actions whoever, 50-200 regeneration points do little good against 1500 damage. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[Phoenix-D]

Suicide Junkie worked it out- if you can expect your ship to survive for 7 combat turns or longer, adding shield regenerators is better than adding more shields. (just use IVs!)

Then again, if you're surviving being shot at for THAT long, you're probably going to win anyway..

Phoenix-D

[Fyron]

Exactly. If they regenerated, say, half as many shields as a shield generator made (per kiloton), then they would be useful.

[Skulky]

So the consensus is don't use them unless you're looking at small scale battles. And, if you do use them, use IV's because V's are useless (does this sound like a thing that needs fixing?)

[Fyron]

It definitely needs fixing.

Actually, using 1 on large ships can be useful if your enemies use boarding parties a lot, because it makes it more difficult for the boarders to get on board the ship.

[ October 13, 2002, 19:45: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Grandpa Kim]

Version 1.52:
6. Changed - Decreased the size of the Shield Regenerator V to 20kT. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This was changed some time ago, but I haven't been paying attention to see if it took effect...

[Fyron]

Originally posted by Grandpa Kim:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Version 1.52:
6. Changed - Decreased the size of the Shield Regenerator V to 20kT. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This was changed some time ago, but I haven't been paying attention to see if it took effect...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It is changed. The SR V is 20 kT. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Skulky]

Well this whole thread was in regards to a stock se4 game where i noticed that discrepency.

[Suicide Junkie]

That stock game must be a pretty old Version...

You're not playing SE4 Classic without installing any patches, are you?

EDIT: 1.52?!?
Crikey, that's a pretty late change.

I fixed my data files within an hour of getting shields level 10 for the first time, way back in the olden days.

[ October 14, 2002, 03:16: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[Taera]

Hate to bring up old topics but...

I dont like people saying shield regen are bad. This is WRONG. I have endless examples of personal experience that proved that a well built ship (i use cruisers) with two shields and two shield regens put in good combine with other ships and using correct tactics and fleet formation can be extremly useful. A good example is the turbine formation - it seems rather useless, yes. But when you go beyond Contra-terrene engine it becomes invaluable because ships move quickly and the formation continuously spins around putting a different ship under fire. Give it some thinking and your fleets would have much less losses. Shield depleters are the single counter to this.

[Ragnarok]

Sheild regen comps are usefull to an extent. But for the most part they are not worth the resources to put them on your ship. Just read this thread again, it's speaking mostly of how they are useless. But they can come in handy if used right. Which is explained in this thread as well.

[Taera]

Yes i see. the component is expensive but much more balanced that in most similar games where it was included in shield generators and was significantly more powerful than current one in SE is.

[Fyron]

Leaving ships in formation is a bad idea in general. Your fleet will be much, much more powerful if the ships break formation than if they stay in formation.

[Taera]

Fyron, i disagree. I dont want to put unneccesary stuff into this topic. If you want to know about my personal fleet experiencec PM me.

[Fyron]

Don't want to divert the thread from the topic? That's fine. PM sent.

[Taera]

PM sent.

Another thing about regens. They might not have much use on ships but when it comes to a base it seems reasonable to put a lot of them and the regens on it, doesnt it? AI was doing that a lot back in SEIII and it had its uses. such a thing was only beatable by a handful of ships with shield burners.

[Fyron]

Too bad bases aren't of too much strategic use.

[Suicide Junkie]

Shield Regeneration in SEIII was also very useful on Baseships with boarding parties.

As I recall, when you boarded a ship, you took only 100 damage points to "shields and boarding parties". With a baseship having 130 shields, you could capture, and still have 30 shields and all your boarding parties... Regenerate the shields for a second and third capture, or just capture a second immediately http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[mottlee]

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
As I recall, when you boarded a ship, you took only 100 damage points to "shields and boarding parties". With a baseship having 130 shields, you could capture, and still have 30 shields and all your boarding parties... Regenerate the shields for a second and third capture, or just capture a second immediately http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">???? Every time I try to do this with more than 1 boarding party they ALL go and I can not go to another...am I doing something wrong??? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

That's in Space Empires three, and that technique expoited the method that the program used to lower your shields and kill your parties.

[mottlee]

AAAH in III ...lets see when WAS the Last time I played it????? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Taera]

Anyway i still consider shield regens to be of use. Especially if you come on an enemy with these by a surprise.

[Fyron]

You're going to surprise them by having significantly less defensive value of each ship? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Skulky]

Why don't we do a PBW test? where one guy builds all sheild regen designs and the other builds non-regen designs and see who wins? FUll tech start of course, kinda building on my Fleet Wars idea.

[Fyron]

You can do that. I'd participate, but I am not joining any new PBW games for a while.

[Taera]

You can try that guys. im outa it though, only have 1.49 on my hands.

Also i thought i'd answer the original question:
The use of shield regens when decreased to 20kT size is significantly increased as now you can put two of these instead of one shield regen. two of these and two shields can be powerful, IMO. You never know though.

[ October 18, 2002, 06:52: Message edited by: Taera ]

[Fyron]

Taera, the problem is that ships are rarely ever only hit by 1 or 2 weapons in a round. They are generally hit so many times that they are either crippled or destroyed. This gives the shield regenerator little chance to operate. The only ship(s) that are only hit a few times are those that are hit Last in the round, because the opponent ran out of weapons to fire. These ships are likely to be pulvarized in the next round, because the enemy ships (unless using Ion engines) will be able to move almost as much- if not as much- as your ship does, and so they will be able to get to about the same range as the previous round, and continue their barrage. In my experience, target ships only get 1 or 2 rounds to live before they are destroyed (or the combat ends, of course). This is why the amount of regen given by a regenerator isn't enough. So, for all those ships that get destroyed in 1 round, an extra shield generator provides a lot more defense than 2 shield regenerators, so it takes a few more shots to destroy, lowering the damage other ships in the fleet receive. If a ship is shot once or twice, then it will regenerate 50 shield points. If it had an extra shield generator instead, it would have 375 more shield points overall, or 325 more damage resistance (or 275 more if it Lasts 2 rounds). Generally, ships do not survive for the 8 rounds necessary for the shield regenerators to become more powerful than a shield generator (assuming max shield tech).

Edit: 1 shield regenerator can be useful to thwart boarding ships if your enemies make heavy use of them. That is the only practical use I can see for a shield regenerator on ships.

[ October 18, 2002, 07:55: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[oleg]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Taera, the problem is that ships are rarely ever only hit by 1 or 2 weapons in a round. They are generally hit so many times that they are either crippled or destroyed. This gives the shield regenerator little chance to operate. The only ship(s) that are only hit a few times are those that are hit Last in the round, because the opponent ran out of weapons to fire. These ships are likely to be pulvarized in the next round, because the enemy ships (unless using Ion engines) will be able to move almost as much- if not as much- as your ship does, and so they will be able to get to about the same range as the previous round, and continue their barrage. In my experience, target ships only get 1 or 2 rounds to live before they are destroyed (or the combat ends, of course). This is why the amount of regen given by a regenerator isn't enough. So, for all those ships that get destroyed in 1 round, an extra shield generator provides a lot more defense than 2 shield regenerators, so it takes a few more shots to destroy, lowering the damage other ships in the fleet receive. If a ship is shot once or twice, then it will regenerate 50 shield points. If it had an extra shield generator instead, it would have 375 more shield points overall, or 325 more damage resistance (or 275 more if it Lasts 2 rounds). Generally, ships do not survive for the 8 rounds necessary for the shield regenerators to become more powerful than a shield generator (assuming max shield tech).

Edit: 1 shield regenerator can be useful to thwart boarding ships if your enemies make heavy use of them. That is the only practical use I can see for a shield regenerator on ships.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Quite accurate analysis why shield regeneration is almost useless. Now, replace the shield regeneration with the organic armor and it becomes obvious that the new OA fix that removes regeneration before damage makes OA not any better than normal armor (except using organics instead of minerals) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

One thing you guys are also assuming is massive fleet battles.

Try putting regenerators on your transports, minelayers, and your solo "ninja" ships that attack targets of opportunity behind enemy lines.

In a 1 on 1 combat, you can much more easily survive the 7-8 rounds nessesary.

[Skulky]

So the consensus is that massive fleet battles, and ships built for that purpose, need not waste space on shield regenerators, however, ships that will be engaging in covert ops/ operating in small fleets (5-10) and/or have a special mission that wouldn't bring them into big battles much, would benifit from sheild regenerators, now i have to go back to the drawing board, again.

[Suicide Junkie]

Also, support ships in big fleets might be a good platform for regenerators.

If you only expect a few ships or fighters to slip past your main force, regenerators will be effective.

Another good place to put regenerators would be on truly massive ships, such as BattleMoons.

Those can be expected to survive the nessesary turns even in large fleet battles, especially if it has escort battleships http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ October 18, 2002, 21:52: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[Taera]

I can see your points. I have never said that the shield regens are something to rely heavy on, i just said it is a powerful tactical tool to not be considered useless. And remember, not all weapons hit, especialy if on max tech and training, plus the scattering and stealth armors.

[Fyron]

Taera, enough weapons still hit to destroy ships in 1 round.

[Taera]

scissor-rock-paper

[Fyron]

It's rock-paper-scissors. And shield regenerators aren't in that process, cause they are too weak to be of use.

[Suicide Junkie]

Hows this?
Rock = Convoys
Paper = Large Fleet(s)
Scissors = Raider ships

Raiders beat huge fleets by avoiding combat, and striking the transports & planets of your empire. The large fleets can catch some, but not all.

Raiders make use of shield regenerators to boost defense strength in small skirmishes, making them immune to the firepower that can be expeced on transport vessels where escorting forces are light to none.

[ October 19, 2002, 13:55: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[Taera]

Yes SJ. exactly. And Fyron, i got the point. i've never said that the shield regen would make you win so get off that they are useless for fleets.

[Fyron]

SJ, if you allow raiding fleets to enter your empire, you haven't defended yourself properly.

Taera, please choose your words more carefully in future Posts. That post could be viewed as the beginning of a flame. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, and has the same rights to post them. If we disagree, that is perfectly fine. But, telling me to "get off that they are useless for fleets" is inappropriate.

[Taera]

Sorry Fyron, no flames or offense meant.
Just i suggest we leave the topic before it becomes one. I admit i have no real experience in PBW but what i post is usualy my thinking.

[Suicide Junkie]

SJ, if you allow raiding fleets to enter your empire, you haven't defended yourself properly.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Chokepoints certainly help in that regard, but can be broken through.

Even if the enemy dosen't have a fleet large enough to wipe out your defeses/blockades, they could send a bunch of raiders in with "don't get hurt" orders, and with 1/4 of them at each corner, a good number should get through to wreak havok behind your lines.

[Fyron]

Odd strategy, I must say. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Could work, I suppose. But if you have enough ships for that to work, and enough ships not charging through to defend you from a counter attack, wouldn't you have enough ships to just break through their fleet?

[Suicide Junkie]

Well, there could be a number of reasons...
1) You don't actually have any defenses.
- you came from a storm system or a chain of nasties.
- you came through an ally's territory.
2) You have a special, alternate defense plan.
- A black hole system, plus ion cannon frigates.
- A star destroyer.
3) Your defenses are not mobile.
- Lots of sats, fighters, mines, and bases rather than ships.
- Your defenses are planet based, with a warppoint in orbit.

[Fyron]

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
Well, there could be a number of reasons...
1) You don't actually have any defenses.
- you came from a storm system or a chain of nasties.
- you came through an ally's territory.
2) You have a special, alternate defense plan.
- A black hole system, plus ion cannon frigates.
- A star destroyer.
3) Your defenses are not mobile.
- Lots of sats, fighters, mines, and bases rather than ships.
- Your defenses are planet based, with a warppoint in orbit.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That all goes back to this statement:
"SJ, if you allow raiding fleets to enter your empire, you haven't defended yourself properly."
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

You shouldn't pick allies that will allow your enemies to pass through their territory, whether voluntarily or because they don't have the strength to stop them.

Immobile defenses are not to be relied upon.

[Taera]

Fyron: but you can always get any of these cases without you knowing. Your allies might not have scanners in certain places, or the enemy is doing smart job with storms. You might get a couple of turns where all of your mobile defenses would be gone for some reason. And so on.

Thats why i love this game!!

[Suicide Junkie]

You shouldn't pick allies that will allow your enemies to pass through their territory, whether voluntarily or because they don't have the strength to stop them.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's not it at all...

In that example, the reason why you can't use your defense fleet to break through, and are using raiders instead, is because the defense fleet dosen't belong to you!

You are the attacker, and you have an ally who is defending this particular entrace from your (presumably) mutual enemy.

But if you have enough ships for that to work, and enough ships not charging through to defend you from a counter attack, wouldn't you have enough ships to just break through their fleet?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Those are all reasons why you might not have the desire or ability to break through, yet still be able to defend yourself from a counter attack.

Another good reason would be that you plant to use the raiders as a decoy, and get the main defense force to split up so they can be smashed by your fleet with fewer casualties.

PS: also, change the "3) Your defenses are not mobile" to
"3) Your defenses are not Warp-Capable" if you like.

[ October 20, 2002, 22:06: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[Shadow Master]

I'v found one realy good place for sheild re-gen.

Consider this starbase that I call Undaunted:
about 2000 sheilds
regens 1000 per turn
massive anti-proton beams(range 15)
religious talisman
max level multiplex

This ship proves both sheild regenerators and stationary defenses can be extermly effective, unless the enemy can get enough ships in range to deal > 1000 damage for more than 2 turns in a row to cause any respectable damage. Cuppled with a few point defense satalites and you have a nearly inpenitrible defense for anywhere that i can deployed in.

[Fyron]

Originally posted by Shadow Master:
I'v found one realy good place for sheild re-gen.

Consider this starbase that I call Undaunted:
about 2000 sheilds
regens 1000 per turn
massive anti-proton beams(range 15)
religious talisman
max level multiplex

This ship proves both sheild regenerators and stationary defenses can be extermly effective, unless the enemy can get enough ships in range to deal > 1000 damage for more than 2 turns in a row to cause any respectable damage. Cuppled with a few point defense satalites and you have a nearly inpenitrible defense for anywhere that i can deployed in.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ok. I will make ships with Null-Space Cannons on them. Those will literally gut that starbase. Shielding and regenerators are wasted space against NSCs.

[Taera]

rock-scissor-paper again

[Suicide Junkie]

Ok. I will make ships with Null-Space Cannons on them. Those will literally gut that starbase. Shielding and regenerators are wasted space against NSCs.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Try replacing a some of the weapons and shields with a pile of Massive Mount (with extended range!) repulsor beams, and/or a stack of wormhole beams. The enemy ships will have a devil of a time getting close enough to fire the NSPs.
I suppose you could mount Wormhole beams on the auxiliary platforms too.

The starbase can easily handle the few ships that actually manage to come into the bases extreme range before getting warped away again.

Wormhole beams are like engines for bases http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif allowing you to keep away from the enemy.

[ October 21, 2002, 02:40: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[Taera]

SJ, you stole my words. Was just about to post that.

Note about StarBase mounted repulser, you get realy no defense against this one. IIRC bases get an accuracy bonus, too.

[ October 21, 2002, 03:08: Message edited by: Taera ]