Formations - what's your strategy [Archive]

rextorres

October 31st, 2002, 11:11 PM

I have read in these here forums that all ships in formation should be set to break formation -
also different players have different theories on what type of formation to choose.

For instance: I took over for someone in a PBW game and the player made a point of suggesting that I choose "spider" formation which is a spread out formation and that they break formation. In my experience, however, I have found that it's best for ships to stay in a formation that's as tight as possible. The reason for this is that the ships concentrate fire and provide mutual defense against seekers. I have been able to beat fleets twice as big that were spread out over the map.

So . . . I am curious why some players insist that it's advantageous for ALL ships to break formation (not just defenseless ships) - and what formation do you think works best.

geoschmo

October 31st, 2002, 11:31 PM

The reason usually for breaking formation is that large formations of ships don't move intelligently. As the formation turns they tend to get tied up with each other and run into range of enemy weapons. Small fleets of 3 - 5 ships though usually do better in formation. And there are circumstances when having your large fleet stay in formation is advantageous.

If you outnumebr an enemy, but they enemy has superiour firepower for example. By breaking formation in this case you will simply get your ships zapped one at a time as they approach the enemy. This is especially evident when facing an enemy with the tailsman. What I like to do there is use the wall formation so my ships all come into ragnge at the same time nad I get to do the most damage I can before he can pick my ships off.

Geoschmo

[ October 31, 2002, 21:32: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Fyron

November 1st, 2002, 12:04 AM

If you have more than about 25 ships in a fleet, formations don't do too much anyways. Most of the ships will appear randomly around the map. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif If only MM had actually increased the size of the default formations when he increased the maximum possible spots in a formation...

oleg

November 1st, 2002, 03:14 AM

Another reason to set "break formations" is an insurance that your ships will move and fight if, God forbid, the fleet leader lose engines.

IMHO, the best formation is "compact" - it is included in TDM formations file.

Skulky

November 1st, 2002, 06:30 AM

How many spots can you have now?

And why can't we have the leader spot taken over by 1 and then by 2 or 3 and so forth?

Fyron

November 1st, 2002, 06:42 AM

If the leader is destroyed, then I think the next available ship in the list is made the new leader.

You can have up to 100 ship slots in a formation now.

rextorres

November 1st, 2002, 07:09 AM

Originally posted by oleg:
IMHO, the best formation is "compact" - it is included in TDM formations file.I agree I've used this one and it's worked the great for me.

Is there a way to add your own formations in PBW?

Also it would be great to assign ships to spots in a formation - hopefully that will be added someday.

Fyron

November 1st, 2002, 07:19 AM

Originally posted by rextorres:
Is there a way to add your own formations in PBW?You could create a mod that has a modded formations file, and play the game with that. But unfortunately you can not add any formations from within the game.

capnq

November 1st, 2002, 08:58 PM

The Gold CD Extras include Raynor's Formation Editor, to help you mod the Formations.txt file.

Which formation is "best" depends on your preferred fighting style and both sides' ship designs, so it's hard to make recommendations.

geoschmo

November 1st, 2002, 09:16 PM

Originally posted by capnq:
[QB]The Gold CD Extras include Raynor's Formation Editor, to help you mod the Formations.txt file.

[QB]IIRC Rayonor's editor only allow's up to 30 positions. The latest Se4 patch's will allow up to 100 positions in your formations, so Raynor's editor is a little obsolete.

I recommend DavidG's SE4Modder though. It has a formation file editor that you cna add the full 100 positions with.

Geoschmo

tesco samoa

November 2nd, 2002, 12:19 AM

I no longer have one.

I used to use them all the time but with games now...fleets are greater than 50 so i get a nice group of ships together and the whole bottom of the combat screen is filled up with ships equally spaced apart. Not very good for capturing planets... As the planet is destroyed before you capture ships can get to it.

Real Pain...

I think this is one area that needs to be cleaned up...

geoschmo

November 2nd, 2002, 04:05 AM

Originally posted by tesco samoa:
I no longer have one.

I used to use them all the time but with games now...fleets are greater than 50 so i get a nice group of ships together and the whole bottom of the combat screen is filled up with ships equally spaced apart. Not very good for capturing planets... As the planet is destroyed before you capture ships can get to it.

Real Pain...

I think this is one area that needs to be cleaned up...The planet wont be destroyed if your strategy is set up correctly. What does happen from time to time with large fleets is the transport is blocked from reaching the planet and can't get to it to drop troops. Usually though the next run it gets through.

Geoschmo

Fyron

November 2nd, 2002, 04:11 AM

Originally posted by geoschmo:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by tesco samoa:
I no longer have one.

I used to use them all the time but with games now...fleets are greater than 50 so i get a nice group of ships together and the whole bottom of the combat screen is filled up with ships equally spaced apart. Not very good for capturing planets... As the planet is destroyed before you capture ships can get to it.

Real Pain...

I think this is one area that needs to be cleaned up...The planet wont be destroyed if your strategy is set up correctly. What does happen from time to time with large fleets is the transport is blocked from reaching the planet and can't get to it to drop troops. Usually though the next run it gets through.

Geoschmo<hr /></blockquote>I've seen 4 battles happen in a row before the transport was placed in a spot where it couldn't get to the planet. All the WPs were destroyed in the first combat. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ November 02, 2002, 02:12: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Gandalph

November 2nd, 2002, 04:22 AM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
If the leader is destroyed, then I think the next available ship in the list is made the new leader.

You can have up to 100 ship slots in a formation now.What I have seen happen is when the leader is destroyed the formation is broken and all ship refer to individual strategy. I only observed this behavior in tactical auto solo play, so it may be different for simul-PBW.

Skulky

November 2nd, 2002, 07:56 AM

Leader Position Xpos := 10
Leader Position Ypos := 9
Leader Design Type := Any
Number of positions := 59
Position 1 Xpos := 9
Position 1 Ypos := 10
Position 1 Type := Any

What does the type entry mean? can you give a certain type of ship a certain position?

Taera

November 2nd, 2002, 08:05 AM

When speaking of formations i always strongly suggest trying out the Turbine formation. It has numerous advantages, mainly having the best ship spinning around.

As for numerous ships, i still think its a good idea to have several fleets at maximum ships.

idea: why there is no "flotile" option to fleet fleets?

capnq

November 2nd, 2002, 11:29 PM

Raynor's editor is a little obsolete. Thanks, Geo; I didn't know that. I've never used the program; I just know it's there.

I've never come up with a formation that I thought would perform better than the stock ones.

Suicide Junkie

November 3rd, 2002, 05:16 AM

idea: why there is no "flotile" option to fleet fleets?Hold the shift key, and click an number of fleets and/or ships.

They will all move as a group for one turn, giving you your flotilla.

tbontob

November 3rd, 2002, 05:34 PM

What the h... is "flotile"? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Is the intended word "flottila"? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

What can the "Shift-click" of ships/fleet accomplish? Non-combat? Combat?

geoschmo

November 3rd, 2002, 05:50 PM

Taera

November 3rd, 2002, 06:53 PM

maybe its Flottila. dont know the exact word. Doesnt matter, you got what i was saying. the problem is, they WILL move together on the first turn when you shift-selected them, but then they will move on their own.

Grandpa Kim

November 3rd, 2002, 07:09 PM

Originally posted by Skulky:
Leader Position Xpos := 10
Leader Position Ypos := 9
Leader Design Type := Any
Number of positions := 59
Position 1 Xpos := 9
Position 1 Ypos := 10
Position 1 Type := Any

What does the type entry mean? can you give a certain type of ship a certain position?The type entry describes the type of design of the ship. IE. attack ship, defense ship, carrier, mine sweeper, etc. I have tried entering specific types on this line with no luck. The game seems to put in whatever it pleases.

Kim

geoschmo

November 3rd, 2002, 09:48 PM

Originally posted by Taera:
maybe its Flottila. dont know the exact word. Doesnt matter, you got what i was saying. the problem is, they WILL move together on the first turn when you shift-selected them, but then they will move on their own.Yes, but even on the first turn although they seem to move together, they won't attack together.

Geoschmo

Fyron

November 3rd, 2002, 10:36 PM

Did you use the Attack order or the Move To order?

PaladinX

November 4th, 2002, 01:29 AM

Funny, I've used it, and they attacked together... Maybe they don't attack together in simultaneous, I wouldn't know.

-Paladin

Suicide Junkie

November 4th, 2002, 02:17 AM

Shift clicked fleets will move together to the same places, but not neccesarily at exactly the same moment. I did some tests with it and could never get them to attack at the same time, regardless of varying fleet speed.I used it to attack a super-heavyweight defended planet in simultaneous (Play by LAN). I shift-clicked to send in an unfleeted Battlemoon, a fleet of support ships, and two 120 ship fleets.
Result: one combat, with 250 ships spread across the entire right half of the combat map.

About five ships shot at the planet (since they started in range), and a transport decided to retreat to the far corner. As it passed the planet, it decided to drop its troops as well.
The fleet stopped firing at the 30-odd massive platforms since my troops were on the surface, and my ships got ripped to shreds.

The only survivors were: the battlemoon, the minesweepers and repair ships, and the troops on the surface.

Skulky

November 4th, 2002, 02:36 AM

that sure sucks. Why didn't your troops capture though? I would've thought that would've been good as you could've gotten the planet at least semi intact.

Fyron

November 4th, 2002, 04:12 AM

In P&N, there is only 1 ground combat round per game turn (or is it 2, I forget). In the normal game, there are 10. So, it takes a while to capture the planet. Of course, dropping more troops on the planet starts another ground combat, so multiple transports can make more than 1 round of ground combat happen in a turn.

geoschmo

November 4th, 2002, 04:29 AM

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Shift clicked fleets will move together to the same places, but not neccesarily at exactly the same moment. I did some tests with it and could never get them to attack at the same time, regardless of varying fleet speed.I used it to attack a super-heavyweight defended planet in simultaneous (Play by LAN). I shift-clicked to send in an unfleeted Battlemoon, a fleet of support ships, and two 120 ship fleets.
Result: one combat, with 250 ships spread across the entire right half of the combat map.
<hr /></blockquote>Interesting. Apparently this was changed at some point since I tested it, cause I just ran some more tests now and confirmed what you are seeing. Don't remember what Version I was using before when it didn't work. Nice to see it does now, but I dont' see anyhting in the history anywhere that it was changed.

Geoschmo

Suicide Junkie

November 4th, 2002, 05:02 AM

Why didn't your troops capture though? I would've thought that would've been good as you could've gotten the planet at least semi intact. They did eventually capture it, but the troops took heavy losses, and almost two years. (See fyron's note)

I'd dropped at least 5 thousand troops, but the planet was huge, breathable, and had 12 billion people on it.
(Don't ask me how the AI crammed 'em in; that size planet only holds 9.6 billion with advanced storage)
My -50% to ground combat hurt, but with 5,000 troops, you just can't go wrong http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

PS: yep 2 years = 20 turns
I didn't dare try to send reinforcements during all that time, 'cause the platforms were still operational. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ November 04, 2002, 03:03: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

Erax

August 7th, 2003, 03:53 PM

Hey, use it to your advantage. Build some heavily armored/shielded weaponless ships and let them soak up initial fire. Give your real support ships one weapon to make sure they start in formation.

August 8th, 2003, 01:42 AM

Originally posted by Grandpa Kim:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Skulky:
Leader Position Xpos := 10
Leader Position Ypos := 9
Leader Design Type := Any
Number of positions := 59
Position 1 Xpos := 9
Position 1 Ypos := 10
Position 1 Type := Any

What does the type entry mean? can you give a certain type of ship a certain position?The type entry describes the type of design of the ship. IE. attack ship, defense ship, carrier, mine sweeper, etc. I have tried entering specific types on this line with no luck. The game seems to put in whatever it pleases.

Kim<hr /></blockquote>A very old post but I did not find a newer one about this problem. I have observed the same as Kim: the ship types seem to be ignored. Anyone knows something else??
Another observation I made: Ships with no weapons at all (no point defense too) are placed outside the formation and at random at the beginning of the combat. Sometimes with deadly consequences!