AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!

[Master Belisarius]

Here more than once, the people have asked about what is or are the best AI Races.
In my humble opinion, the question can't be answered 100% in an objective way. Mostly, because depending of the game settings and starting position, the luck, and the preferences of the human player, most of the AI races will have different performances.
Anyway, all of us agree that all (most?) of the the modded Races, are better than the stock Races... then, think that some degree of comparison can be done.
More than one year ago, here was organized an AI tournament, and think that now is time to start a new one!

I want to start this contest, with 2 premises:

- Exclude in the possible the luck.
I know it's impossible...but want to do my best effort! IMHO, most the time the starting position and the map, determine the AI performance in a game. Then, believed that starting with a custom map, that could be fair enough to offer similar opportunities to all the AIs, would be a good idea. I did it and if the map that did, it's fair to all the AIs or not, can be debated... and I would be glad to hear opinions. But at least it's something that I can start to use (hey, if it's too geometric and boring to somebody, please remember that I did the SE3/4 Ladder's Map!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ).

- Head to Head games (it mean, 1 AI vs 1 AI).
Why? Because are more easy to do (and fast!), because avoid the problem when the AI doesn't know where to send their fleets, and finally because avoid the problem when an AI is struggled between other two. I know, races like the Rage will have an advantage, and will be a drawback for the peaceful ones. But at least in my games, the aggressive AIs usually have more success than the peaceful (maybe excluding the TDM Praetorians).

RULES.
- Everybody can vote here, for 5 AI scripts to be included into the contest, until the next 11/12 night.
- The 16 more voted AI scripts, will take part of the AI DEAD MATCH CONTEST!
- If we can't reach this number, I will include the AI's that could consider more competitives, until have 16 AIs.
- I will use the more new AI scripts Versions that could find, or if the AI's author want, could send me an updated Version.
- If the author of the AI don't want to see their scripts included into this contest, the AI will be replaced for the next AI in the list.
- Using a random function (as I said, we can't avoid 100% the luck!), will assign numbers from 1 to 16, to every AI.
- I will start matches, between the AI 1 vs AI 2, the AI 3 vs AI 4, etc, etc.
- The games will be played using a custom map, TDM data files, 3 Good Starting Planets, no random events, simultaneous movement and the first Player for the "human" player.
- The victory can be decided by:
a) One AI was able to destroy 100% the other AI.
b) The AI with more victory points after 500 turns.
- I will post the save game at the end of every game.
- Every AI will need to defeat 3 times their opponent, to pass the next round (it mean, at least 3 games between the two AIs!).
- If somebody have suggestions or observations, I will be happy to hear it!

Please, can somebody vote?

[Master Belisarius]

Here is the link to the map:

AIContestMAP.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1036960686.zip)

EDIT: I have changed the map a bit, to balance the Gas Giant races, including some Large planets.

[ November 10, 2002, 20:41: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

[Urendi Maleldil]

I still have the tech files I used for the old AI Challenge. They were used for a playaer controlled observer race since one player race is needed to run a game and a human player with full AI control runs differently than a full AI player.

With your SE4batch program running, 1 on 1 duels should go very quickly. The only problem I see is if two friendly players ally with each other and remain approximately equal in score. Then they will never fight each other (no MEE).

Might I offer a suggestion to judge races on style and originality as well as brute combat effectiveness?

[Master Belisarius]

Originally posted by Urendi Maleldil:
I still have the tech files I used for the old AI Challenge. They were used for a playaer controlled observer race since one player race is needed to run a game and a human player with full AI control runs differently than a full AI player.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You did a great effort this time... more considering that you needed to do it manually all the time.
I can see your point about the human race. But I have decided a different approach: have created a lone system, without warp connections far in the left down corner for the human player. Then, I don't need special tech files: simply the human player will be out of the battle. And if one AI can open a hole to this system (what I doubt), good for them!

Originally posted by Urendi Maleldil:

With your SE4batch program running, 1 on 1 duels should go very quickly. The only problem I see is if two friendly players ally with each other and remain approximately equal in score. Then they will never fight each other (no MEE).
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I never knew 2 so peaceful races... but would be possible, I think. At this case, the race who will manage the resources better, or the race that could colonize more fastest, will make more points than the other race and would be the winner.

Originally posted by Urendi Maleldil:

Might I offer a suggestion to judge races on style and originality as well as brute combat effectiveness?
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I can remember that you included this point in your contest. I liked the idea. But the problem is that to determine the winner, would be based in my subjective judge!
And my subjective judge believe that the United Flora, should win every style and originality contest hands down! And because I wanted to do the more objective contest possible, have decided to exclude other kinds of prizes.
But, if you want to be part, and judge the races considering style and originality, I have not problems!

Hey, nobody like to vote for any AI? Please don't let me select the 16 AI races myself! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[God Emperor]

Out of my six AI (Jraenar, Klingons, Praetorian, Romulans, Shadows and UkraTal), I'd be interested to see how my Klingons do....

Regards

GE

PS: I have posted an update that supercedes my mod-pack Version.

[ November 10, 2002, 00:04: Message edited by: God Emperor ]

[CombatSquirrel]

I absolutely insist that the United Flora compete. I would also like to see how the Space Vikings fare, and am interested in the Drakol showing.

CombatSquirrel

[Urendi Maleldil]

The modified tech files had a component that closed warp points (for sealing off the human's system on a random map), had a master computer, super high movement, quantum reactor, super high cloaking, and all sensors and scanners.

I did it because I wasn't sure if "omnipresent view" affected AI behavior. Also it was kind of cool to play the omnipotent observer.

I simply slapped together a few observer escorts for each AI race and parked them over key systems. Then I could see anything they did and note any nifty actions. I also played AI turns outside of the game every hundred turns or so so I could see how they were doing research wise and stuff.

P.S. I really want the Orks to take some names.

[ November 10, 2002, 05:04: Message edited by: Urendi Maleldil ]

[Mephisto]

I would like to throw in the Earth Alliance and the Narn. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Master Belisarius]

First, thanks to everybody for the votes!!!

Originally posted by Urendi Maleldil:
I did it because I wasn't sure if "omnipresent view" affected AI behavior. Also it was kind of cool to play the omnipotent observer.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I understand! The question is that now I will run the games with a batch mode, then, can't see the AI behavior "Online"! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif But I can keep savefiles.

[Deathstalker]

Being one who never underestimates the power of the Dark Side I'd like to see how the Empire does (Star Wars Empire 1) or even my poor misunderstood EEEvil Empire. As for other peoples AI's I've always had a great respect for the Angelican Regency. That and the Xi'Chung have always kicked butt (mine at least!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif )

[Alpha Kodiak]

This sounds cool! I'd like to see my Namovans and Azorani in it, if there is still room. I'm also about to release a new Version of the Rage with improvements based upon my observations from Turn Blitz 1. I would like to see how the new Version performs in your test, again, if there is room.

[Mephisto]

Originally posted by Deathstalker:
That and the Xi'Chung have always kicked butt (mine at least!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif )<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Xi'Chung and Narn have the same AI. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Baron Grazic]

I've never had my AI survive long enough to sugest using them, but I'd vote for the :-

Orcs, Pyrochette, Drakol, Earth Alliance, Xi'Chung, EEEvil Empire, & Eee

They always seem to be in the Top 10 in any of my Solo games.

[Urendi Maleldil]

Rage or Vikings vs Orks

[Rollo]

Cool idea http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .
Only problem I see might be the "quad damage" bug or are you running that on the beta?

Only 5 AI choices, that is hard. My votes go to: Azorani, Eee (new Version), Namovan, Orks, Toron

I would also include the Aquilaeian, but I have only 5 votes and I reckon they will get enough votes anyway http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif .

Rollo

[Rollo]

Originally posted by [K126]Mephisto:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Deathstalker:
That and the Xi'Chung have always kicked butt (mine at least!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif )<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Xi'Chung and Narn have the same AI. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think Mephisto means the Narn and Xiati are the same, not Xi'Chung.

[Stone Mill]

Believe it or not, my #1 vote for most challenging AI goes to...

the Romulans!!

Superb job beefing them up, God Emperor. They always ravage the other AIs in my games, and give us humans something to think about.

My money is certainly on the Romulans... so... speaking of wagers... when the final list is decided, please post odds so we can do some virtual wagering! This could be fun, eh?

[Master Belisarius]

Originally posted by Rollo:
Cool idea http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .
Only problem I see might be the "quad damage" bug or are you running that on the beta?
Rollo<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sadly, after my computer crashed, never was able to install any beta patch in my computer again!
I asked to Aaron, and he told me that only needed to install the game from the CD, and then, apply the Last patch... but never worked.

[TerranC]

Torons, and GE's new races.

But torons moreover. They expand fast, they research fast, they build fast, and they have drones with alligience subverters http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

[Urendi Maleldil]

They use subverter drones!? I've used that strategy. It's really effective. I must be playing the old Torons.

[Rexxx]

My votes are:
the United Flora, the Rage (if possible the new Version AK mentioned), the Klingons, the Narn and the new Version of the Eee (sorry, couldn't resist).

Thanks MB for your great idea and listening to the wishes of the gas giant races.
R.

[Mephisto]

Originally posted by Rollo:
I think Mephisto means the Narn and Xiati are the same, not Xi'Chung.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ups! Yep, Rollo, you are right. The Xi'Chung are Dynarr's race.

[Urendi Maleldil]

My five votes:

Orks
Vikings
Rage
EEEvil
United Flora

[ November 11, 2002, 19:08: Message edited by: Urendi Maleldil ]

[Dingo]

What about all the TDM races? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Thanks guys, you did a wonderful work modding these races!
Seriously, my votes are:
1) Narn
2) EA
3) Pyrochette
4) Vikings
5) Aquilaeian

Could also include, a vote for the XiChung?

[Atraikius]

My think my votes would be for the Aquillians, Earth Alliance, Toron, and United Floral - they seem to be in the top 10 for me the most consistantly, with the the fifth being a toss-up between the Orks, Rage, Vaxin, or Pyrochette.

M.B. wasn't there one of the Beta testers who had problems after a bad computer crash, ending up with thier machine ID code changing.

[ November 11, 2002, 12:53: Message edited by: Atraikius ]

[Master Belisarius]

If doesn't exist objections, I'm going to change something the original format of the Contest.

First, would like to include max of possible AI without became crazy running the games! Then, will be happy to extend the 16 AIs limit to 24.

Second, was thinking that with the originally proposed fixture, maybe the best 2 AIs could have the bad luck to have a meet in the first round, and then, we will lose one of them so early... then, was thinking to use a more fair but long system to run the contest.

- 6 Groups with 4 races.
- All the races of ech group will play between them, in the 1 vs 1 basis. It mean, 6 games per Group.
- The 2 first races of each group, will go to the next round.
- If does exist a draw for the 1st or second place, I'll run extra games.
- The second round will be done with 3 Groups of 4 AIs. The 2 first of each group will go to the third round.
- The Third Round will be done with 2 Groups of 3 AIs each one. The 2 first of each group, will go the the fourth round.
- The Fourth round will be done with 2 Groups of 2 AIs each one. The winner of each group, will fight the final.

Here is a link with the projected fixture.
Fixture.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1037067885.zip)

With this format, the tournament will take more time to run, but think we will get more accurated results.
Objections?????????

Hey, does exist a voluntary that would like to run a website for the Tournament? Would be cool, because we could post there all the AI files used, the Map, zip files with the savegames, the results, etc, etc

[CombatSquirrel]

Originally posted by Stone Mill:

My money is certainly on the Romulans... so... speaking of wagers... when the final list is decided, please post odds so we can do some virtual wagering! This could be fun, eh?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Stone Mill, that is an awesome idea. Maybe victory will only be bragging rights, but I'm in.

CombatSquirrel

[Urendi Maleldil]

MB, could you post save game files every so often for each of the games so we the "spectators" can see what the AIs are doing to each other?

[Master Belisarius]

Originally posted by Urendi Maleldil:
MB, could you post save game files every so often for each of the games so we the "spectators" can see what the AIs are doing to each other?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sure.
The only problem is the size. I'll keep savegames every 10 turns, but considering that will be lots of games, Shrapnel will kill me!

Well. The list was closed and after compile all the named races... the number was exactly 24! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Here are all the voted AIs:

Jraenar
Klingons
Praetorian
Romulans
Shadows
UkraTal
United Flora
Space Vikings
Drakol
Earth Alliance
Narn
Star Wars Empire
EEEvil Empire
Angelican Regency
Xi'Chung
Namovans
Azorani
Rage
Orks
Pyrochette
Eee
Toron
Aquilaeian
Vaxin

Well, after it, have started to generate random numbers with my calc for every race. Then, after order the racers for the generated number, the Groups are:

GROUP A
United Flora 0,035
Eee 0,101
Drakol 0,134
Azorani 0,229

GROUP B
Aquilaeian 0,244
Orks 0,261
Space Vikings 0,331
UkraTal 0,364

GROUP C
Namovans 0,392
Pyrochette 0,452
Praetorian 0,5
Vaxin 0,603

GROUP D
Toron 0,606
Xi'Chung 0,609
Rage 0,609
Earth Alliance 0,688

GROUP E
EEEvil Empire 0,709
Klingons 0,722
Angelican Regency 0,831
Jraenar 0,838

GROUP F
Star Wars Empire 0,844
Shadows 0,85
Narn 0,979
Romulans 9,62

Then, I'm starting the first match between United Flora and the EEE new Version.
LETS GO!!!

[Alpha Kodiak]

I have just posted Version 3.0 of the Rage. If it is not too late, I would like them to be the Version in the contest.

For the sake of redundency, here is the link:

1037251673.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1037251673.zip)

Edit for corrected link. Somehow I previously uploaded the wrong Zip file. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif

[ November 14, 2002, 05:32: Message edited by: Alpha Kodiak ]

[Master Belisarius]

Originally posted by Alpha Kodiak:
I have just posted Version 3.0 of the Rage. If it is not too late, I would like them to be the Version in the contest.

For the sake of redundency, here is the link:

1037143144.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1037143144.zip)<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sure Alpha, I will use the Last files.

Well, we have our first winner!
Yep, the United Flora have defeated the EEE. Was something easy for them, I think. Believe that the main problem with the EEE was their expansion.
Here is the link: UFlora_vs_EEE_G1.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1037146905.zip)

Now are fighting the Drakol vs Azorani.
The Azorani go first (turn 85), but looks a balanced game.
EDIT: Turn 273 and the game seems decided for the Azorani. The Drakol where out of minerals during a long time.
Edit2: The game has been finished and the Azorani are the winners.
Drakol_vs_Azorani_G1.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1037154712.zip)

Now are fighting the Aquilaeian Vs Orks.
I'll going to sleep and tomorrow will see the result...
EDIT 3: I'm still here! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ! Turn 178 and the Aquilaeian have the advantage and think will win the match.
Now, really I'm going to sleep!!!

----------------------------------------------
IMPORTANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hey DeathStalker, could you send me the files for:

Star Wars Empire 1.
EEEvil Empire
Angelican Regency

Please remember that should be compatible with 1.78.

[ November 13, 2002, 03:16: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

[Deathstalker]

Quote"IMPORTANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hey DeathStalker, could you send me the files for:

Star Wars Empire 1.
EEEvil Empire
Angelican Regency

Please remember that should be compatible with 1.78."

The latest Versions of the shipsets (EEEvil and StarWars Emp1) are at Kuat Drive Yards. The Regency is one of John Beeches and is at Universal Ship Yards. (dont' actually know who did the AI for it).

As for compatibility the ones I have work fine with the latest se4 Version.

If you can't get to them though I could post them here. (edit)

[ November 13, 2002, 04:28: Message edited by: Deathstalker ]

[Alpha Kodiak]

Something odd happened in the Drokol vs. Azorani match. I checked the Azorani designs at turn 100 and none of the designs were correct for Azorani. There was an armed colonizer cruiser that does not exist for the Azorani, and weapons for attack ships were a mix of missiles and PPB. Then I checked at the end of the game and the designs were a mix of the above designs and standard Azorani designs. I noticed that many of the designs were named Design nnn, so I wonder if there was a cross-up of some sort with the Drakol on design names.

[Skulky]

EDIT: About my idea below, i'll do something on the EEE, 1st game in the next couple days and post it.

EDIT: I only read pages 2 and 3 before posting hence most of this is irrelevant.

However... each game or series could be distributed for analysis and a whole analysis package could be drawn up with a winner written up. Also big points for any race that can beat the allegiance subverter w/o a mod.

...maybe?

[ November 13, 2002, 05:01: Message edited by: Skulky ]

[Rexxx]

I just checked the saves (turn 100 and later) of the EEE-UF match. There are lots of oddities (on the Eee side) similar to those AK mentioned in his Last post.

The ship designs are completely new: The Eee never designed cargo or troop transports. I didn't find the missile and PPB attack ships, there are lots of APB and DUC ships which the Eee never designed (APBs are not even researched). There are weapon platforms the Eee never designed, researched or built but a lot of "wrong" fighters. The research tree is also very strange and not the "original" one, the facility construction is lousy. To shorten it up, I found the Emperor's name but the wrong Empire.
After seeing this chaos I stopped wondering why the UF defeated the Eee so easily. Using this stuff the Eee are not even a match for a stock race. An official protest by General Secretary Lihun is in order. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Master Belisarius]

Originally posted by Alpha Kodiak:
Something odd happened in the Drokol vs. Azorani match. I checked the Azorani designs at turn 100 and none of the designs were correct for Azorani. There was an armed colonizer cruiser that does not exist for the Azorani, and weapons for attack ships were a mix of missiles and PPB. Then I checked at the end of the game and the designs were a mix of the above designs and standard Azorani designs. I noticed that many of the designs were named Design nnn, so I wonder if there was a cross-up of some sort with the Drakol on design names.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'll check it today. But first all, must say that the Azorani are new in my computer, right, then think this is not the same problem with the EEE...

[Master Belisarius]

Originally posted by Rexxx:
I just checked the saves (turn 100 and later) of the EEE-UF match. There are lots of oddities (on the Eee side) similar to those AK mentioned in his Last post.

The ship designs are completely new: The Eee never designed cargo or troop transports. I didn't find the missile and PPB attack ships, there are lots of APB and DUC ships which the Eee never designed (APBs are not even researched). There are weapon platforms the Eee never designed, researched or built but a lot of "wrong" fighters. The research tree is also very strange and not the "original" one, the facility construction is lousy. To shorten it up, I found the Emperor's name but the wrong Empire.
After seeing this chaos I stopped wondering why the UF defeated the Eee so easily. Using this stuff the Eee are not even a match for a stock race. An official protest by General Secretary Lihun is in order. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You're right!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif
When I have started the tournament, I have created a new folder named "Tournament", and was doing a copy there all the AI files.
The problem was, that when I have started this game, forget to change the setting into the program "SE4Batch", to change the MOD folder... then, think that the EEE used most the time, the TDM files!
I never played the EEE TDM, then, when I realized the mistake, checked the EEE and believed that was not the stock EEE, then, believed that everything was ok (because I don't remembered that the EEE was included into the TDM).

When the United Flora, doesn't existed problems (THINK!), because I had a copy of the 2.0 Version inside my TDM folder.
Conclusion: I'll play the game again... SORRY!

About the Drakol_vs_Azorani, well, I think that have changed the setting before this game. But I have got some game errors, and then, did a reboot and everything was ok.
I will replay this game too, if doesn't exist objections!

Here is the result between: Aquilaeian_Vs_Orks.
The Aquilaeian wins. Please note that at the turn 340, they opened a hole to the Human race and killed everything!
Aquilaeian_vs_Orks_G2.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1037184957.zip)

Hey, sorry for the problems, but is not easy try to have in mind all the details... This is because I'm posting ALL, trying to keep everything transparent to everybody.

Edit:
Skulky wrote:
"However... each game or series could be distributed for analysis and a whole analysis package could be drawn up with a winner written up. Also big points for any race that can beat the allegiance subverter w/o a mod.
...maybe?"
It's ok with me. If you want the job, you will be able to download all the savegames and judge them.

To DeathStalker:
Thanks, I will download the files from there.

[ November 13, 2002, 13:42: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

[Rexxx]

Hi MB,
no problem at all. Just as you said there are lots of files and races to be dealt with to make this contest work. It is much easier - and definitely more fun - to check out the results than to create them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ November 13, 2002, 14:27: Message edited by: Rexxx ]

[Master Belisarius]

Well, still are fighting the United Flora against the EEE (this time with the right files!).
And surprise! The EEE are doing a great job and think will win!!!
Now it's the turn 319 and the UF are down in the numbers and at the defensive... The UF started in a good way, but at some point, they became lack of organics, and think it changed the course of the game.
What a difference with the previous EEE files!!!!!! Good work Rexxx!!
Hope could post the files today, because the turns after the turn 350 always start to be verrrrry slow.

Tomorrow will be unable to play any game, because need to fly to Buenos Aires. Will continue Friday night.

Edit: now it's the turn 382 and the things looks more even.
The EEE have 3.0M of points and the UF2.4. Everything could happen! UF with problems with organics, and EEE with problems with radioactives!
Sadly, that here we had a new example of a bug that I have already seen in other games: some AI fleets stand without do anything during turns and turns.
For example, does exist a EEE fleet into the Baksha system, that is not under Minister Control!!!!!!!!! Similar thing, but with a bunch of UF ships into the same system, coordinates 2,5.

Turn 420 and the UF where first in the points, and believed that should start to change the game for their side.
Turn 430 and the UF are first, and have 2 strong fleets inside the EEE territory at Cuyrok and Cephedri, but the EEE had an strong fleet in AGR.
Turn 440 and the EEE are in the first place again. Their attacks inside Agr, are giving good results for them.
Turn 445 and the UF are falling! Lots of riots and Ships abandoned! They only have 871K of points, when 15 turns ago they had more than 3.0 M!!

Obviously, both AI's are doing mistakes that the humans doesn't do... If not, nobody could explain the amazing course of this game!!!!!!!!!

Turn 447 and the UF have riots everywhere!
Turn 453 and the UF only have 326K points!
It is strange of seeing, how its strong empire with a winning situation, crumbled in a few turns, as a castle of cards!
Turn 470 and the UF did something VERY INTELLIGENT: they surrendered to the EEE.
Turn 480 and the EEE have killed the humans!

A very interesting game! Sure, sometimes the AI mistakes could irritate the more calm people, but was a cool game!
Here is the link UFlora_vs_EEE_G1_with_right_Files.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1037241362.zip)

[ November 14, 2002, 02:38: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

[Alpha Kodiak]

I would definitely like to see how the Azorani play with the correct files. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[Master Belisarius]

Originally posted by Alpha Kodiak:
I would definitely like to see how the Azorani play with the correct files. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Touche!!!
But think were the right files...
Something strange happened, that was unable to determinate, and was fixed after reboot (damn Windows!).
Maybe was a memory problem, or something like that.

[Master Belisarius]

Last Report before sleep:
Now are playing the Drakol vs Azorani, again...
Turn 227, and although the Drakol control more systems, their victory points are 643k, vs 1.2M of the Azorani.

Tomorrow if have time, will post the results befor take the taxi to the airport! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Edit: The Azorani are the winners...
Here is the link: Drakol_vs_Azorani_Right_Game.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1037271102.zip)

[ November 14, 2002, 10:53: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

[Alpha Kodiak]

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Alpha Kodiak:
I would definitely like to see how the Azorani play with the correct files. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Touche!!!
But think were the right files...
Something strange happened, that was unable to determinate, and was fixed after reboot (damn Windows!).
Maybe was a memory problem, or something like that.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No shot intended. I was a bit rushed when I wrote the reply. I just meant that I want to see how the Azorani do when their designs are consistently being used so that I can tell if I need to tweek anything.

[Alpha Kodiak]

Ok, this is embarassing. I uploaded the wrong copy of the Rage. I've corrected the link everywhere I had originally posted it, and here it is again for good measure:

1037251673.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1037251673.zip)

That's what I get for trying to hurry! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[Master Belisarius]

Originally posted by Alpha Kodiak:
No shot intended. I was a bit rushed when I wrote the reply. I just meant that I want to see how the Azorani do when their designs are consistently being used so that I can tell if I need to tweek anything.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif No problem!

Originally posted by Alpha Kodiak:
Ok, this is embarassing. I uploaded the wrong copy of the Rage. I've corrected the link everywhere I had originally posted it, and here it is again for good measure:

1037251673.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1037251673.zip)

That's what I get for trying to hurry! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ok, don't worry! I have already downloaded this new Version.

[Urendi Maleldil]

Wow! This is great guys; some really slugging matches. Tons of fun for everyone. And good excersise for AI race creaters.

[Master Belisarius]

The Vikings defeated the UkraTal. Here is the link: Vikings_vs_UkraTal_G3.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1037417874.zip)

Now I'm starting the game between the Namovans and the Pyrochette.

[Master Belisarius]

The Pyrochette have defeated the Namovans. Was a duel of Temporal Races! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Here is the link: Namovans_vs_Pyrochette_G3.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1037456655.zip)

Now, are fighting the Praetorian vs the Vaxin...
and hehehehehe, these kind races have a Partnership! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
As always, the Praetorians are colonizing very very fast, and have duplicated the number of planets of the Vaxin... If a war is not started, this will be the first match without a KO, and the Vaxin will lose by points...

EDIT: hey Captain Kwok, don't worry! Seems to be that even the peaceful people can have problems sometimes!!! The Preateorians killed everyobdy, including the Humans, at the turn 340! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Here the link:
Preatorian_vs_Vaxin_G3.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1037461452.zip)

[ November 16, 2002, 15:46: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

[Captain Kwok]

I wasn't going to say anything - but it has finally got to me...

Shouldn't the thread's title be "AI Death Match Contest"?

[Master Belisarius]

The Toron have defeated the Xichung. Was something easy for them: only 190 turns.
Here is the link
Toron_vs_XiChung_G4.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1037465117.zip)

Next, will be starting an interesting game: EA vs Rage.
Edit: The EA was the winner. Later will post the link.
I have expected a Rage victory, at least, a more balanced game... but the EA have erased the Rage before the turn 190!
EA_vs_RAGE_G4.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1037496048.zip)

[ November 17, 2002, 01:22: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

[Master Belisarius]

EEEvil vs Klingon. Turn 115 and think the EEEvil will be dead meat...

Well, I was right: after the turn 179 the Klingons are the winners! Khaless is Great!!!!
EEEvil_vs_Klingon_G5.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1037500171.zip)

Now, the Angelican Regency will meet the Jraenar!
Tomorrow the result... because I'm going to sleep!
Edit 1: well... was forced to edit the A.Regency that have downloaded from the Universal Shipyards, because where not 1.78 compatible. Needed to edit the settings.txt (all the settings after "Personality Group"), and fleets.txt (after "Fleet default strategy"), because got game errors... I have filled the fields with Aquilaeian values, then, sorry if they doesn't does a good work...

Edit 2: the Jraenar won, and was another fast game.
ARegency_vs_Jraenar.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1037535392.zip)

[ November 17, 2002, 12:36: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

[God Emperor]

Thanks for the update and the effort you are putting in MB!

Just as a note, the Praetorians and Klingons have a lot of similar AI files, with the Politics and Anger files being the main differences between the two (subtle differences include things like the Praetorians not researching Cloaking although they'll use it if they get hold of it somehow).
Regards,

GE

[Mephisto]

Yes, yes, the good old EA. So very peaceful until attacked. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
Calm waters are deep...

[Ruatha]

Just wanted to say-
What a great idea!

[Master Belisarius]

Originally posted by Ruatha:
Just wanted to say-
What a great idea!<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thanks Ruatha!

Here the Last game for the first wave of matches: the Narn defeated the Romulan very fast (Turn 174).
Narn_vs_Romulan_G6.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1037547164.zip)

Sitiuations after the first serie of matches:

Group 1
EEE 1
Azorani 1
United Flora 0
Drakol 0

Group 2
Aquilaeian 1
Space Vikings 1
Orks 0
UkraTal 0

Group 3
Pyrochette 1
Praetorian 1
Namovans 0
Vaxin 0

Group 4
Toron 1
Earh Alliance 1
XiChung 0
Rage 0

Group 5
Klingons 1
Jraenar 1
Eeevil 0
A.Regency 0

Group 6
Shadows 1
Narn 1
Star Wars Emp. 0
Romulans 0

Now, I'll start with the second serie of matches. Somebody wants to bet??? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ November 17, 2002, 19:32: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

[Master Belisarius]

Have started the second wave of games.

The United Flora have defeated the Drakol, and still could go to the second round. In the other hand, the Drakol will not continue...
Here the link:
Drakol_vs_UFlora_G1.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1037561967.zip)

Now, are fighting the EEE vs Azorani, for the leadership of this group.

[Master Belisarius]

The EEE confirmed their good qualities, and defeated the Azorani. Please note that the Azorani are not "dead" when you go to load the Last savegame... but they only have a minefield.
Here the link:
EEE_vs_Azorani_G1.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1037566604.zip)

Next, the Aquilaeian will meet the Space Vikings.

[Master Belisarius]

Hey, thanks for the support guys!

And now, I'm starting a duel of evil people:
Star Wars Empire 1 vs Shadows! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Edit 1: like with the Angelican Regency, the SWEmpire had not updated the settings.txt and fleets.txt to run into 1.78. And like with the A.Regency, have filled the settings with Aquilaeian settings (was the first race in the list!!!!!).

Edit 2: the Shadows have defeated the Empire!
SWEmpire1_vs_Shadows_G6.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1037542092.zip)

[ November 17, 2002, 14:08: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

[Master Belisarius]

Aquilaeian vs Vikings.
A very weird game!!!
The Vikings are using the Political Puppets a lot against the Aquilaeian, and with the initiative during most the game... but they're loosing by points!!!!!!
454 turns and can count 11 dead empires!!!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Every turn take a loong time to play in my computer, then, hope could post the result today.
Turn 464, and the Vikings have a lot of riots, because the Aquilaeians have started to attack their systems.
Finally, the Aquilaeian won by points... but had a winner situation. Here is the link:
Aquilaeian_vs_Vikings_G2.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1037592028.zip)

Now, are fighting the Orks vs UkraTal.

[ November 18, 2002, 04:04: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

[Fyron]

Those crazy Vikings... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[TerranC]

I for one, are happy that those vikings are dead. I'll be sleeping happy to know that they aren't so smart after all (took down my baseship in a game).

[Master Belisarius]

The UkraTal defeated the Orks... then, all the races still of this group, can be in the next round!
Will post the files later.

Here the link:
Orks_vs_UkraTal_G2.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1037658766.zip)

[ November 18, 2002, 22:34: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

[dogscoff]

I for one, are happy that those vikings are dead. I'll be sleeping happy to know that they aren't so smart after all (took down my baseship in a game).
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The vikings are happy too. Having died a heroic warrior's death in battle, they are now living in the halls of Valhalla, enjoying an eternal cycle of eating roast boar, drinking mead and fighting one-another to the death.

[ November 18, 2002, 11:40: Message edited by: dogscoff ]

[dumbluck]

What the....

O....
n....
i....
o....
n....

What the....? Hey, what's that sound?

[capnq]

Hey, what's that sound? <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The sound of one eye crying?

[Master Belisarius]

Praetorians vs Namovans.
Another weird game!
During 420 turns was the more boring AI test that ever did!!!!! Nothing happened!
But after it, the Namovans started an offensive and used Black Holes Creators and Sun Destroyers against the poor Praetorians!
After the turn 500, still remained some Praetorian's planets, but were not many...
Here the link:
Praetorian_Vs_Namovans.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1037671398.zip)

[henk brouwer]

Originally posted by dogscoff:
[QUOTE]
The vikings are happy too. Having died a heroic warrior's death in battle, they are now living in the halls of Valhalla, enjoying an eternal cycle of eating roast boar, drinking mead and fighting one-another to the death.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Aack!! subliminal Messages! we're all getting brainwashed!

[Master Belisarius]

The Pyrochette have defeated the Vaxin. Had not time to see the match.
Here the link:
Vaxin_vs_Pyrochette_G3.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1037703723.zip)

[DirectorTsaarx]

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
Praetorians vs Namovans.
Another weird game!
During 420 turns was the more boring AI test that ever did!!!!! Nothing happened!
But after it, the Namovans started an offensive and used Black Holes Creators and Sun Destroyers against the poor Praetorians!
After the turn 500, still remained some Praetorian's planets, but were not many...
Here the link:
Praetorian_Vs_Namovans.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1037671398.zip)<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">An AI using Black Hole Creators and Sun Destroyers - be afraid... be very afraid... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

[Master Belisarius]

The Toron have defeated the Rage in 210 turns, and surelly will be in the next round... meanwhile, will be very difficult to see the Rage there.

Toron_vs_Rage_G4.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1037746615.zip)

Now, are fighting the XiChung vs EA. If the EA wins, then, XiChung and Rage will be out.

[ November 19, 2002, 23:01: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

[Master Belisarius]

The EA has defeated the XiChung, and then, the EA and the Toron go to the next round!!!
Are the first confirmed empires in the second round!!!!

XiChung_vs_EA_G4.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1037750481.zip)

[Master Belisarius]

The Angelican Regency defeated the EEEvil in 230 turns. Always I liked to see the goodness triumph over the wickedness! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Eeevil_vs_ARegency_G5.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1037753738.zip)

[Master Belisarius]

Jraenar vs Klingons.
Klingons are ahead in the numbers, but both empires are lack of resources (Klingons radioactives, Jraenar minearls).
It's another easy game. Think because the Klingons has not Minesweepers and has not the resources to build them, can't invade the Jraenar's systems... and mehanwhile the Jraenar's fleets had the "no movement" syndrome (for example, their fleet at Baksha).
I'm going to sleep...

EDIT: Turn 500 and nothing have changed! The Klingon won by points.
Later will post the link.

[ November 20, 2002, 10:58: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

[Alpha Kodiak]

Hmmm... the Rage seem to be having problems in this. In my testing they seemed to do well. Has anyone been playing against the Rage outside of this test? If so, what are your impressions?

[Master Belisarius]

Originally posted by Alpha Kodiak:
Hmmm... the Rage seem to be having problems in this. In my testing they seemed to do well. Has anyone been playing against the Rage outside of this test? If so, what are your impressions?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Please let me know if you think that was not using the right files (for example, check the buildings in the planets, the kind of planets selected by the AI, the ship designes, etc.).

Yes, I have expected more form the Rage, but in the other hand, think the Toron is one of the candidates to win the contest, and the EA is a veru good race.
Anyway, don't know, could be the map?

[God Emperor]

@Alpha Kodiak,
In my games (large galaxies, high difficulty, low bonus, 19 modpack races) I generally find the Rage to be between 6th to 10th place across the first 100 turns (I include them in all my games).
They are aggressive and have good ships but I'm not sure that they expand fast enough.

@Master Belisarius,
Just a note, all Klingon ships carry minesweeper elements. Are you suggesting though that the AI waits until it has a certain number of Minesweeper ships though before it will tackle a known minefield?

Regards
GE

PS: The EA quite often make it into the top 4 in my games (make quite a few friends on the diplomatic front usually).

[ November 20, 2002, 11:59: Message edited by: God Emperor ]

[Master Belisarius]

Originally posted by God Emperor:
@Master Belisarius,
Just a note, all Klingon ships carry minesweeper elements. Are you suggesting though that the AI waits until it has a certain number of Minesweeper ships though before it will tackle a known minefield?
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yep, I saw the ships designes with minesweepers, but also with cloak devices, then:

1) Are you sure that the AI decloak the ATTACK ships, before go through a minefield? (I know that the AI does it with the MINESWEEPERS SHIPS, and doubt that would be smart enough to do it with ATTACK ships). But I can see another problem: if the attack ships find a minefield not reported yet, the minesweepers will be useless because can't sweep mines while are cloaked.

2) Into the settings.txt, the Klingons have:

Ships don't move through minefields := True

It mean that these large fleets with ATTACK ships with minesweepers DEVICES, never will try to go through a warp point if know that at the other side does exist mines... They will wait until a MINESWEEPER SHIP could clean the minefield before go there.

Some modders, have changed this settings to "False".
To my taste, I like this setting in "True", because if not, the AI like to send fleets to commit suicide, sending ships without minesweepers DEVICES or lack of it...
But if you put it "True", then, the MINESWEEPERS SHIPS are a MUST BE.

[ November 20, 2002, 13:57: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

[Rexxx]

Originally posted by Alpha Kodiak:
Has anyone been playing against the Rage outside of this test? If so, what are your impressions?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I often met them during my EEE test games (different quadrants, no up to medium bonus, high
diffculty, TDM-races).
If anyone survive the first onslaught of your Rage the fortunes of war change. I think the Rage "kill" themselves by fighting almost every race they meet. They are bleeding out literally....
Probably the price for making them so aggressive.

Is it possible that the Rage research mines relatively late? After the EEE had deployed their first minefields (they research mines very early), they can relax for several years, crippling the expansion of the Rage at least in their direction for this time.

The fleets of the Rage are deadly in early game, a lot of ships. But I never met many fleets. The EEE could glass lots of planets before running into one of them. When they met one, well, very bad luck and some new construction orders.

Later in the game lack of technology becomes an issue. Maybe it comes from this "bleeding out".

According to my experiences it is true when I say: the later I met the Rage the better. To be honest I used (and use) them to test my AIs in early game. If you survive the first and second year after making First Contact with the Primary Sequencer (in his usual mood) you know that your race is doing fine.

After two games against your new Version I would say these impressions are still valid.

I cannot say anything about the expansion issue GE mentioned. Don't work with rock/ice planet races.

Regards
R.

[Alpha Kodiak]

Originally posted by Rexxx:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Alpha Kodiak:
Has anyone been playing against the Rage outside of this test? If so, what are your impressions?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I often met them during my EEE test games (different quadrants, no up to medium bonus, high
diffculty, TDM-races).
If anyone survive the first onslaught of your Rage the fortunes of war change. I think the Rage "kill" themselves by fighting almost every race they meet. They are bleeding out literally....
Probably the price for making them so aggressive.

Is it possible that the Rage research mines relatively late? After the EEE had deployed their first minefields (they research mines very early), they can relax for several years, crippling the expansion of the Rage at least in their direction for this time.

The fleets of the Rage are deadly in early game, a lot of ships. But I never met many fleets. The EEE could glass lots of planets before running into one of them. When they met one, well, very bad luck and some new construction orders.

Later in the game lack of technology becomes an issue. Maybe it comes from this "bleeding out".

According to my experiences it is true when I say: the later I met the Rage the better. To be honest I used (and use) them to test my AIs in early game. If you survive the first and second year after making First Contact with the Primary Sequencer (in his usual mood) you know that your race is doing fine.

After two games against your new Version I would say these impressions are still valid.

I cannot say anything about the expansion issue GE mentioned. Don't work with rock/ice planet races.

Regards
R.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Interesting observations. I was aware of, and accepted, the problem of falling behind by not having trade relations with other races, but that shouldn't have an effect in a one-on-one game. You may be right about not researching mines early enough. Also, in this game, there is a fair distance between the two opponents, which gives more time for the Rage's opponent to develop. Another map related issue may be the number of moons on the map. It seems like there are less than an average number, and the Rage flourish on maps with more moons. I think I do need to look at the number of fleets issue. I had messed around with those settings early in the developement of the Rage, and I may have made them build too few large fleets. I will have to investigate that. I also need to make sure that they maintain a good expansion rate.

[Master Belisarius]

Alpha wrote: "Another map related issue may be the number of moons on the map. It seems
like there are less than an average number, and the Rage flourish on maps
with more moons."

I did the map with the idea that everybody should have similar opportunities to colonize planets... a big problem when you consider that doesn't exist Gas Giant planets with "None" as atmosphere!

To compensate this, was because I have included 2 moons without atmosphere (one rock and the other ice) per system.
Then, think the Rage still had more opportunities to develop in the EARLY game than the other races, because had 1 more breathable planet per system, but less opportunities to build facilities when "ICE" and "GAS" colonizations are
available later.

In the early game:
Standard Rock Race with "Advanced Storage Techniques"
1 Breathable with 18 facilities.
1 Non-Breathable moon with 1 facility.
4 Non-Breathable planets with 3 facilities.
Total = 18 + 1 + (4*3) = 31 facilites

Rock Race with "No atmosphere" and "Advanced Storage Techniques"
1 planet NO atmosphere with 18 facilities.
1 moon with 6 facilities.
4 Non-Breathable planets with 3 facilities.

Total = 18 + 6 + (4*3) = 36 facilites per system.

Every race had 7 nearest systems available to colonize, the Rage had available 7 * 5 = 35 extra facilities to build in the early game, if they where able to colonize these systems and keep them. Then, don't think one of the reasons was the lack of space to colonize.

Considering that the Rage doesn't lost the game in the late game, the reason in my view (and of course it not mean that I'm right!), was mostly, what God Emperor wrote: expansion.

It can justify, how in the turn 50, the Toron was able to have colonies in all the nearest systems and 42 planets. At the same turn, the Rage only had 22 planets and has not colonies in Abrion, Butukret and Rove.

Ok, maybe the Rage research mines something later, or had bad luck to be in a group with 2 strong races like Toron and EA, but the main reason think was the expansion rate. Something vital in a map where it's no room to expand, if it's not going against the enemy.

[Master Belisarius]

Here the link to see the game between Jraenar vs Klingons.

Jraenar_vs_Klingon_G5.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1037830427.zip)

Now, I'm starting the game between SWEmpire and Narn.

[Master Belisarius]

The Narn defeated the Star Wars Empire... the Empire surrendered their Last planets.
Think the Empire has very big problems in the ship designs: some of them has not Sensors, and others has no ECM...

Here the link: SWEmpire_vs_Narn_G6.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1037834126.zip)

Now I'm doing the Last game for the second wave: Shadows_Vs_Romulans

Edit: the Romulans has the same problem of the Klingons/Jraenar with the mines... But the Shadows have lots of minesweeper ships, then, hope this will be NOT another game until the turn 500.
Turn 142 and the Shadows are ahead in the numbers... and without minesweeper ships, think the Romulans will play a lost battle.

Turn 151 an at least the Romulans built a lone minesweeper... that will die trying to clean a minefiled at Aargau... Think that the difference it's that they're not out of supplies like the Jraenar/Klingons were.

Turn 219 and although the Romulans can't go into the Shadows territory, they have killed 2 large fleets without loses, and now are first!

Turn 395 and nothing new... Both races out of supplies and without fight.
Think that the God Emperor's races would work better with Medium or High bonus...

Turn 500. Game over and the Romulans wins by a short margin! They managed to open a hole into Shadow's territory and killed most planets at Aargau. But the Shadows attacked at Abrion. Then, both races finished with lots of riots and with very close victory points: 798K vs 746K.
Here the link:
Shadows_vs_Romulan_G6.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1037842837.zip)

[ November 21, 2002, 01:44: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

[God Emperor]

MB,
Thanks for the report regarding minesweepers. Looks like I will have to advance them a bit further in the AI_Construction queue.

Regards,
GE

[Master Belisarius]

Originally posted by God Emperor:
MB,
Thanks for the report regarding minesweepers. Looks like I will have to advance them a bit further in the AI_Construction queue.

Regards,
GE<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Hey, no problem! Always liked your AI's for the Klingons and Romulans... then, I'm happy if can help in some way.

[Master Belisarius]

Here is the situation after the second wave of matches:

Group 1
EEE 2
Azorani 1
United Flora 1
Drakol 0

Group 2
Aquilaeian 2
Space Vikings 1
UkraTal 1
Orks 0

Group 3
Pyrochette 2
Praetorian 1
Namovans 1
Vaxin 0

Group 4
Toron 2
Earh Alliance 2
XiChung 0
Rage 0

Group 5
Klingons 2
Jraenar 1
A.Regency 1
Eeevil 0

Group 6
Narn 2
Shadows 1
Romulans 1
Star Wars Emp. 0

Now, I'm starting the 3rd and Last wave of matches for the first round.

The Azorani will fight against the United Flora, and the winner will be in the next Round with the EEE.

[ November 21, 2002, 01:45: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

[Master Belisarius]

Azorani vs United Flora.
Turn 246.
A very interesting game, and 2 very good races!
The United Flora at the offensive with the Talisman, but the Azorani has AS...
Turn 260.
The UF attacks in Aargau are creating riots into the Azorani colonies.
The Azorani has a big fleet that maybe would have been able to stop the UF attacks... but not used it. Sadly, it looks like a hardcoded behavior.

Interesting, but the Azorani are destroying most the planets (previously conquered by the UF) into Aargau, to rebuild them later.

I'm going to sleep!

Edit: United Flora won. Here the link:
Azorani_vs_UFlora_G1.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1037917390.zip)

[ November 21, 2002, 22:25: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

[Alpha Kodiak]

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
Alpha wrote: "Another map related issue may be the number of moons on the map. It seems
like there are less than an average number, and the Rage flourish on maps
with more moons."

I did the map with the idea that everybody should have similar opportunities to colonize planets... a big problem when you consider that doesn't exist Gas Giant planets with "None" as atmosphere!

To compensate this, was because I have included 2 moons without atmosphere (one rock and the other ice) per system.
Then, think the Rage still had more opportunities to develop in the EARLY game than the other races, because had 1 more breathable planet per system, but less opportunities to build facilities when "ICE" and "GAS" colonizations are
available later.

In the early game:
Standard Rock Race with "Advanced Storage Techniques"
1 Breathable with 18 facilities.
1 Non-Breathable moon with 1 facility.
4 Non-Breathable planets with 3 facilities.
Total = 18 + 1 + (4*3) = 31 facilites

Rock Race with "No atmosphere" and "Advanced Storage Techniques"
1 planet NO atmosphere with 18 facilities.
1 moon with 6 facilities.
4 Non-Breathable planets with 3 facilities.

Total = 18 + 6 + (4*3) = 36 facilites per system.

Every race had 7 nearest systems available to colonize, the Rage had available 7 * 5 = 35 extra facilities to build in the early game, if they where able to colonize these systems and keep them. Then, don't think one of the reasons was the lack of space to colonize.

Considering that the Rage doesn't lost the game in the late game, the reason in my view (and of course it not mean that I'm right!), was mostly, what God Emperor wrote: expansion.

It can justify, how in the turn 50, the Toron was able to have colonies in all the nearest systems and 42 planets. At the same turn, the Rage only had 22 planets and has not colonies in Abrion, Butukret and Rove.

Ok, maybe the Rage research mines something later, or had bad luck to be in a group with 2 strong races like Toron and EA, but the main reason think was the expansion rate. Something vital in a map where it's no room to expand, if it's not going against the enemy.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It definitely looks like I need to push the Rage expansion rate. First I'll have to figure out why they are not expanding fast, then maybe I can improve it. Now, if I only had more time to actually look at what is going on.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[Master Belisarius]

As I have expected, the EEE crushed the Drakol. Only 164 turns!

EEE_vs_Drakol_G1.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1037920089.zip)

[TerranC]

the drakol seem to be crushed too easily; in all my games, by the time I have contact, they are almost dead and holding off at their homesystem, or worse.

I'd like to see the drakol become a menace as it is described...

[Master Belisarius]

The Aquilaeian defeated the UkraTal.
Here the link:
UkraTal_vs_Aquilaeian_G2.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1037934324.zip)

Orks vs Vikings: what a fast game!!!!! The Vikings defeated the Orks in less than 156 turns!
Here the link.

Orks_vs_Vikings_G2.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1037936015.zip)

[Master Belisarius]

Originally posted by TerranC:
the drakol seem to be crushed too easily; in all my games, by the time I have contact, they are almost dead and holding off at their homesystem, or worse.

I'd like to see the drakol become a menace as it is described...<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think that they're very good, in the way that try to be an Intel race, and then, they has a different approach than most races... but... in SE4, think is not so easy survive as an Intel race.

[Master Belisarius]

The Namovans defeated the Vaxin.
Here the link: Namovans_vs_Vaxin_G3.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1037964397.zip)

Now, if the Praetorians can defeat the Pyrochette, will have 3 empires with the same score!

[Mephisto]

The Drakol are not only an Intel race, they are a Gas Giant race, too. This is a problem for the AI as you have fewer planets to settle. They might be larger but the AI uses for various reasons more small planets better then fewer large planets. Further, when they loose a large planet, they are really screwed.

[Master Belisarius]

The Pyrochette defeated the Praetorians... then, they're first in the group and the Namovans second.
Here the link:
Pyrochette_vs_Praetorians_G3.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1037982233.zip)

Now are playing EA vs Toron.

Sadly, I'm going out and could continue with the contest, sunday nigth.

[God Emperor]

MB,
I downloaded some of your files but cannot seem to load them in SE4. Are you using any special settings or modified files?
Could you post your /Data files?

Regards,

GE

[ November 25, 2002, 00:03: Message edited by: God Emperor ]

[oleg]

Originally posted by God Emperor:
MB,
I downloaded some of your files but cannot seem to load them in SE4. Are you using any special settings or modified files?
Could you post your /Data files?

Regards,

GE<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think MB uses the first Gold patch. If you have latest patch (#2) that may be a problem

[God Emperor]

MB,
Reloaded the modpack Data files and everything is fine now. Must have had a file that was edited in some way.
Anyway, was just checking a few saves and noticed that my races seemed short of resources in their games (you also made a comment previously).
eg Praetorians in their Last game had Ice Colonisation by turn 110 but were never able to afford to build an Ice coloniser.

Did you set the game up with No Bonus? (My races are optimised for low bonus which would explain their running out of resources - I suspect a few other modders have optimised theirs for low bonus as well as it makes the AI a better challenge by offsetting their inability to optimise use of resources).

Regards,

GE

[ November 25, 2002, 14:43: Message edited by: God Emperor ]

[Master Belisarius]

Originally posted by God Emperor:
MB,
Reloaded the modpack Data files and everything is fine now. Must have had a file that was edited in some way.
Anyway, was just checking a few saves and noticed that my races seemed short of resources in their games (you also made a comment previously).
eg Praetorians in their Last game had Ice Colonisation by turn 110 but were never able to afford to build an Ice coloniser.

Did you set the game up with No Bonus? (My races are optimised for low bonus which would explain their running out of resources - I suspect a few other modders have optimised theirs for low bonus as well as it makes the AI a better challenge by offsetting their inability to optimise use of resources).

Regards,

GE<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">All the games were without bonus.
Why?
1) Were all games played between AIs, and the "human" is only nominal.
2) All the AI start with 3 good planets, and all the planets available to generate resources, are very good, then, the AI have more available resources than in standard games.
3) The most important reason: when I wrote the game settings for the games, nobody suggested to change the bonus!!!!

For the first round, I can't change this setting... I'm near to finish and would not like to restart everything!
I could change it to LOW BONUS, for the next steps of this contest... but would like to hear some more opinions first.

Finally, want to say that most the races had not problems with the resources... In my personal view, put this setting in: Maximum Maintenance Percent of Revenue := 99
it's something high. Maybe would be ok for medium or high bonus, I think.
My two races had 90, and never where out of resources.
In my opinion (of course), believe it's something dangerous put this setting so high. If for some reason (even with high bonus could happen), the AI is out of supplies, never will be able to build a new colony and compensate this problem, if the AI doesn't lost some ships first...

[ November 25, 2002, 17:42: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

[Baron Grazic]

Originally posted by MB:
For the first round, I can't change this setting... I'm near to finish and would not like to restart everything!
I could change it to LOW BONUS, for the next steps of this contest... but would like to hear some more opinions first. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I would suggest keeping the same settings for the rest of the rounds. That would keep consistancy from the start to the end.

Keep up the running commentary, MB, it makes an interesting read.

[God Emperor]

MB,
I wasnt suggesting making any changes now to how you were running the matches, just seeking confirmation of my deduction (I didnt realise that you were intending to use No Bonus - I could have adjusted the AI_Construction_Vehicles files if I had realised - no worries though http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ) and making an observation for the benefit of other modders and forum members assessing the performance of the various AI (ie those AI running out of resources dont necessarily have to be revised).
Regards,

GE

PS: The 99% setting works fine on low bonus and assists the AI by maintaining a very high build rate - 90% in my experience results in the AI losing lots of resources. On No Bonus however, 90% is probably one of the easiest settings changes to make.

PPS: I second the comment regarding game commentary and look forward to the next installment.

[ November 25, 2002, 22:13: Message edited by: God Emperor ]

[Rexxx]

An English friend of mine once told me: Don't change your horses in the mid of the stream.
I know, I know, it's just a proverb but there is truth in it. Hopefully I can explain my point of view:

We have a contest with defined preconditions (which were open to discussion) for its whole course. If one or more of these preconditions are changed for the second round, we will get another contest. There are 12 races which are being eliminated in the first round. Possibly some of these races still would be in the contest if those new precondition(s) were used from the beginning. That's just what nobody knows and that is exactly my point. Changing rules during a contest will lead to a lot of "what if" questions.

My answer would be same even if the EEE were eliminated during the first round.

[Master Belisarius]

Originally posted by God Emperor:
MB,
I wasnt suggesting making any changes now to how you were running the matches, just seeking confirmation of my deduction (I didnt realise that you were intending to use No Bonus - I could have adjusted the AI_Construction_Vehicles files if I had realised - no worries though http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ) and making an observation for the benefit of other modders and forum members assessing the performance of the various AI (ie those AI running out of resources dont necessarily have to be revised).
Regards,

GE<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ok, I understand.
Maybe the next time, I will run it with low bonus!
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Master Belisarius]

EA vs Toron.
This time, 2 strong and friendly AI's had close encounter... and was... verrrrry boring!
The EA won by points in the turn 500, and both races had a Military Alliance until the end...
Here the link:
EA_vs_Toron_G4.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1038263243.zip)

XiChung vs Rage.
This time, although the Rage has not started very fast, they got a deserved victory and defeated the XiChung in 330 turns.
Here the link: XiChung_vs_Rage_G4.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1038263709.zip)

Now, I'm running Jraenar vs EEEvil.

[Master Belisarius]

Jraenar vs EEEvil Empire.
The Jraenar's expansion was a lot more fast than the EEEvil, and killed them in less than 126 turns!!
The BC EEEvil's ships with DUC cannons, were unable to stop the Jraenar's LC ships with PPB.
Here the link: Jraenar_vs_EEEvil_G5.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1038264908.zip)

[Master Belisarius]

Klingons vs Angelican Regency.
Turn 246 and the Klingons have the best opportunities. They're not out of supplies, but anyway, had not mine-sweepers to remove the Angelican Regency's minefields... then, think they will not start the final assault for now...

Turn 333 and nothing changed... The Regency like the Klingon, has not mine-sweeper ships... then, probably it will continue until the turn 500.

Turn 401.
The Klingons are now out of radioactives...
The Angelican regency, could colonize a lot of Ice/Gas planets... but is not building colony ships altough has enough resources, and has colony ships in all the Ship Construction file's states! Think it's because still has lot of Colony rock ships, that can't use to colonize because are no more available rock planets into their systems...

Turn 500 and the Klingons won...
Here the link: Klingon_vs_ARegency_G5.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1038277507.zip)

[ November 26, 2002, 03:02: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

[Master Belisarius]

Originally posted by God Emperor:
MB,
I downloaded some of your files but cannot seem to load them in SE4. Are you using any special settings or modified files?
Could you post your /Data files?

Regards,

GE<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm using the TDM data files. Think you should have not problems using it (because know that others where able to see the savefiles).
Please let me know if you still have problems.

[Master Belisarius]

Romulan vs SWEmpire.
The Empire was not a menace for the Romulans... Turn 155 and the Empire will fall soon.

The Romulans has the Force, and crushed the Empire before the turn 163. Think they lost so fast, because has not layed mines... if not, at least the Romulans would had more problems to win.
Here the link: Romulan_vs_SWEmpire_G6.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1038279360.zip)

[Master Belisarius]

The Narn defeated the Shadows (later will post the link).

Then, here are the races that will be in the next round:

GROUP S1
Eee
Space Vikings
Pyrochette
Toron

GROUP S2
Aquilaeian
United Flora
Klingons
Romulans

GROUP S3
Earth Alliance
Namovans
Narn
Jraenar

- For the round 3 where only will be 2 Groups with 3 AIs, I'll play 2 games between every AI.

- For the round 4, where only will be 2 Groups of 2 AIs, the winner of each group, will be the AI that could defeat 2 times their opponent.

- For the final, the winner will be the AI that could defeat 3 times their opponent.

[Gryphin]

First:
Master Belisarius, Thank you for your hard work. This is impressive.

Second:
Will anyone mind if I post my predictions?

[Master Belisarius]

Originally posted by Gryphin:
First:
Master Belisarius, Thank you for your hard work. This is impressive.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hug, thanks, but I enjoy doing it!

Originally posted by Gryphin:
First:
Second:
Will anyone mind if I post my predictions?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Of course not!
Here is the only prediction (not guess) that can say: will be very difficult for the God Emperor's AIs, to be in the next round. Think that the problem with the lack of resources and lack of mine-sweeper ships will be too much for them on this round.

[God Emperor]

Here is the only prediction (not guess) that can say: will be very difficult for the God Emperor's AIs, to be in the next round. Think that the problem with the lack of resources and lack of mine-sweeper ships will be too much for them on this round. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Agree with you completely MB. Have downloaded several of the saves from the games involving my AI and believe that they will run short of resources again and wont get to build the cool technology that they research in the later stages of the game (basically they are building too many Attack ships for a No Bonus game).

Regards,

GE

[Master Belisarius]

Ok, here the link for the Shadows vs Narn.
Shadows_vs_Narn_G6.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1038357102.zip)
Now, I'm starting the first game of the second round: EEE vs Space Vikings.

Sadly, tomorrow I'll go to Buenos Aires again, and will continue the games the next friday.

[ November 30, 2002, 03:07: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

[Master Belisarius]

The EEE defeated the Vikings in 260 turns!
They looks like a firm candidate to win the contest!
Here the link: EEE_vs_Vikings_S1.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1038363333.zip)

Now, I'm starting the game between the Pyrochette and Toron

[Master Belisarius]

Pyrochette vs Toron.
Well, I have started this game after the 23hs here, and finished at 05:00! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Then, after 6 hours of combat, the Pyrochette won at the turn 500.
An interesting game. When I was going to sleep, believed that the Toron would be the winners... but was wrong.
Here the link: Pyrochette_vs_Toron_S1.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1038402336.zip)

Now, I'm starting the game between Aquilaeian and United Flora. Will let run it, and will see the result when come back to my house the Friday night.

[Ruatha]

Ahhrg, the suspension... Friday night!
Go vikings go!

[Master Belisarius]

I'm back.
Only had time to see the result between Aquilaeian vs United Flora.
The Aquilaeian won before the turn 370.
Link: Aquilaeian_vs_UFlora_S2.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1038612609.zip)

[ November 30, 2002, 03:08: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

[Master Belisarius]

Klingons vs Romulans.
This ST war, was a trench war! And the Klingons were the winners because they had a highest score after the turn 500.
Here the link: Klingons_vs_Romulans_S2.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1038625374.zip)

[ November 30, 2002, 03:03: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

[TerranC]

I know this is a big request, but could you post the AI Versions used for the top 12 AIs that made it?

[Master Belisarius]

EA vs Namovans.
The EA played a very good game, and defeated the Namovans before the turn 187.
Here the link:
EA_vs_Namovans_S3.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1038628305.zip)

Now, I'm starting the game between the Narn and the Jraenar, and after it, will go to sleep.

[Master Belisarius]

Originally posted by TerranC:
I know this is a big request, but could you post the AI Versions used for the top 12 AIs that made it?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">But I'm using files that are currently in the download forum.
- EEE, United Flora, Namovans, Pyrochette and Aquilaeian: you can see them posted.
- Klingon, Romulan and Jraenar, from the Last posted God Emperor's AIs.
- Vikings, Toron, EA and Narn, from the Last TDM.

Anyway, I have not problems to post the AI files inside a zip (but without the *.bmp files), but tomorrow.

[Cheeze]

I realize that the EEE are already doing well, but I wonder if they'd do even BETTER if the matches weren't 1 on 1. Their ultra-friendliness might prove even more dangerous in those situations. I've been in games where I've wanted to war with the EEE, but I had more immediate enemies, and those EEE are so darn friendly and so darn STRONG!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Rexxx]

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
But I'm using files that are currently in the download forum.
- EEE, United Flora, Namovans, Pyrochette and Aquilaeian: you can see them posted.
- Klingon, Romulan and Jraenar, from the Last posted God Emperor's AIs.
- Vikings, Toron, EA and Narn, from the Last TDM.

Anyway, I have not problems to post the AI files inside a zip (but without the *.bmp files), but tomorrow. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Please exclude the EEE. I'm altering most of the strategies due to new knowledge (from PvK) about "missile hunting" and how it can be avoided. Secondly after checking the savegames I decided to alter slightly the design creation and facility construction files.
I would like to have only the most recent of my EEE available, the one I'm currently using, that is. That's why I removed the download link in the Mod-forum some days ago.

[Tampa_Gamer]

Hi MB - great idea. Thanks for including my Dra'kol, but as Mephisto pointed out, I tried to keep them true to form as an Intel/Gas race based on their ancestors the Darlok http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif so they would offer some variety in races. Anyway, if you do another series, I would not mind seeing how my revised Piundon AI from the TDM pack fare.

Thanks

-TG

[Master Belisarius]

Originally posted by Rexxx:
Please exclude the EEE. I'm altering most of the strategies due to new knowledge (from PvK) about "missile hunting" and how it can be avoided. Secondly after checking the savegames I decided to alter slightly the design creation and facility construction files.
I would like to have only the most recent of my EEE available, the one I'm currently using, that is. That's why I removed the download link in the Mod-forum some days ago.[/QB]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ok, as you wish Rexxx, but think TerranC wanted to have all the AIs involved in the contest, not the Last Version.

[Master Belisarius]

Originally posted by Tampa_Gamer:
Hi MB - great idea. Thanks for including my Dra'kol, but as Mephisto pointed out, I tried to keep them true to form as an Intel/Gas race based on their ancestors the Darlok http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif so they would offer some variety in races. Anyway, if you do another series, I would not mind seeing how my revised Piundon AI from the TDM pack fare.

Thanks

-TG<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hi Tampa! A long time without see you!
Ok, no problem, the next time the Piundon will be there.
But I have not included the AIs to my own taste! All the races into the contest were voted for someone.

[Master Belisarius]

Narn vs Jraenar.
The Narn defeated the Jraenar in less than 200 turns.
Here the link: Narn_vs_Jraenar_S3.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1038667184.zip)

Now, I'm starting the game between the Pyrochette and EEE.

[ November 30, 2002, 14:44: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

[Master Belisarius]

Originally posted by Cheeze:
I realize that the EEE are already doing well, but I wonder if they'd do even BETTER if the matches weren't 1 on 1. Their ultra-friendliness might prove even more dangerous in those situations. I've been in games where I've wanted to war with the EEE, but I had more immediate enemies, and those EEE are so darn friendly and so darn STRONG!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yep, as I wrote in the first post, the peaceful races will have some disadvantage with this system to run the contest... But run a large contest with games including more than 2 races, would be a nightmare.

I have an observation about the EEE: they have lots of fleets with a few ships. Think it's ok fighting against others AIs, but against humans doesn't look so good.

[ November 30, 2002, 14:54: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

[Master Belisarius]

Pyrochette vs EEE.
The Pyrochette has a better start than the EEE. But the EEE started to attack the Pyrochette planets with several small fleets, and then, changed the game to their side.
The Pyrochette had several fleets with the "do nothing" syndrome, and then at the turn 365, although think still they could fight and try to win, believe the EEE will win.
Turn 458.
The Pyrochette were able to control the riots, and start to re-construct their empire. Has started an offensive into the EEE territory, and are near in the numbers.
Turn 482.
Although the EEE control most the galaxy, anyway they're loosing by points. A loong and very interesting game.
Turn 500 and the Pyrochette won by points...
Here the link (a heavy file to download!): Pyrochette_vs_EEE_S1.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1038696802.zip)

Want to comment a few things:
1) The EEE never used troop transports. Think this is a disadvantage.
2) The Pyrochette won, only because:
a) Were good keeping their Last systems and their planets without riots most the time.
b) Had a good management of the production, to surpass the EEE production, even with less systems.
3) Interesting, but the Pyrochette never won a fast game: Two times at the turn 350, one time at the turn 450 and two times at the turn 500.
4) Sometimes the hardcoded AI behavior is very frustrating... The "do nothing" bug in the fleets or the lack of skills that has the Population Minister to send population to planets without people, or the lack of skills to decide the right targets, can change the course of any game.

Finally, I'm starting to feel myself ashamed and afraid: my two AI's had won all the games... and think that somebody could start to believe that I'm doing something to help them to win...
If somebody feel something like that, I have not problems if this person want to run the games where my AIs are involved.

[ November 30, 2002, 22:54: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

[Rexxx]

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:

I have an observation about the EEE: they have lots of fleets with a few ships. Think it's ok fighting against others AIs, but against humans doesn't look so good.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">MB, you're right. The EEE prefer more but smaller fleets to a few (very) large ones. Large fleets are very powerful but you can only attack one or two planets - sometimes even in the same system - at the same time. Small fleets are less powerful but you can attack much more planets (if the AI has a good day even in different systems http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ).
In a "normal" game you frequently face more than one enemy, more than one or two enemy fleets. IMO the best answer to these multiple threats are more but smaller fleets.
I agree that larger ones are more dangerous to a human player. However, normally your AI don't face the human opponent at first, the probability of running into a hostile AI is much higher. You're also right, that - in a normal game - this "more fleets strategy" works quite well against other AIs, especially those with large fleets. Thus, it raises the chances to reach midgame at all and not being killed early. In midgame (it means for me being able to colonize rock planets) the EEE I'm currently testing begin to build up larger fleets in their desperate attempt to be a worthy opponent for the human player.

The situation in this contest is quite different. There is only one enemy to be crushed and for this purpose large and powerful fleets are much better. I'm surprised that the EEE survived so long against your Pyrochette.

This fleet thingie is like the quadrature of the circle, there is no perfect answer. The only solution I can imagine would be the ability to control the structure of our AI fleets, that would boost the qualities of any modded AI and make them a much better opponent.
As it is now I like the fact that there are different approaches regarding those "fleet strategies", it protects the game from getting too easy and predictable for the human player. What seems to work well against the EEE might be useless against the Pyrochette. Bad luck... Reload or start a new game... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

EDIT:
Hi MB: Just read your Last post. Bad news, very bad news http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .
Controlling most of the galaxy and losing at the same time is hard, very hard indeed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
Looking forward to checking the savegames. I guess the EEE - stubborn as they are - build unit upon unit, not realizing that these efforts don't increase the score.

[ November 30, 2002, 22:53: Message edited by: Rexxx ]

[Master Belisarius]

Originally posted by Rexxx:
This fleet thingie is like the quadrature of the circle, there is no perfect answer. The only solution I can imagine would be the ability to control the structure of our AI fleets, that would boost the qualities of any modded AI and make them a much better opponent.
[/QB]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Good points, and agree 100% with you... Probably, I'll change a bit, the fleets.txt for the next Pyrochette/Aquilaeian Versions.

[Rexxx]

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
Finally, I'm starting to feel myself ashamed and afraid: my two AI's had won all the games... and think that somebody could start to believe that I'm doing something to help them to win...
If somebody feel something like that, I have not problems if this person want to run the games where my AIs are involved.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Don't be silly.
Sorry for this bluntness but if someone doubts your fairness I would say that this person has a serious problem but not you.

[Master Belisarius]

Toron vs Vikings.
The Toron played a very good game and defeated the Vikings. The training facilities for ships/fleets plus the AS, good ship designes and fast expansion, are good arguments to win.
The Vikings are great, of course, with good aggressiveness/defensiveness, and very good ship designes, but were unable to stop the Toron at any momment.
Here the link: Vikings_vs_Toron_S1.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1038702571.zip)

[Master Belisarius]

Klingons vs Aquilaeian.
The Klingons expanded a LOT more fast than the Aquilaeian, then, had the possiblity to kill the Aquilaeian very fast!
The Aquilaeian only control 3 systems now (turn 224), but the Klingons started to had the problem with lack of minesweepers and lack of resources... then, don't know if they could finish the Aquilaeian.
Turn 271.
The Aquilaeian killed a big Klingon's fleet into their homeworld system, and has started to rebuild their empire... The Klingons has now resources, but are building only attack ships (no minesweepers).
Turn 342.
The Aquilaeian only control an small part of the galaxy, but now are in the first possition for a short margin.
Turn 350.
The Klingons must face a LOT of riots... their ships are destroyed by lack of maintencance. Really they were very very close to destroy the Aquilaeian, but are paying a high price for the problems with lack of mine-sweepers and lack of resources.
Turn 462.
The Klingons only control a few systems, and nothing can change their fate...
The Aquilaeian killed the Last Klingon's planet, at the turn 498.
Here the link: Klingons_vs_Aquilaeian_S2.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1038769780.zip)

[ December 01, 2002, 19:23: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

[Cheeze]

I couldn't agree more that anything more than a 1 on 1 test would be a nightmare to manage.

I can remember seeing the EEE dreadnoughts, bristling with heavy-mounted ripper beams...brrrrrr!

I can only imagine the horror if the EEE had proven the best AI in the game. The thought that their happy, friendly demeanor hid an absolute monster of an AI opponent would give even us humans the willies!!!

[Rexxx]

Originally posted by Cheeze:
I can only imagine the horror if the EEE had proven the best AI in the game. The thought that their happy, friendly demeanor hid an absolute monster of an AI opponent would give even us humans the willies!!!<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The stock EEE had to be peaceful/forgiving to make use of the Ancient Race trait at all. An aggressive Gas Giant Race with this racial trait is dead within 50-70 turns. They build an endless stream of colonizers which are dead meat a few turns later, never reaching their destinations.

The EEE in this contest use the - only slightly altered - anger and politics files of their ancestors. Their happy friendly demeanor is their best chance to survive long enough to discover rock planet colonization. From this point on they can build up an empire similar to those of rock planet races. An empire consisting only of Gas Giants isn't an empire it is "patchwork". The Emperor has to travel very far to visit his citizens, lots of systems to be crossed without any colonizable planet.

In a "normal" game when facing a Gas Giant race the best strategy is strike first and strike hard. Their empires crumble very easily in early game, later - when they get the colonization techs - they become much more powerful.

I prefer the peaceful approach for my games as well but for the EEE (IMO any Gas Giant race) it is vitally important.

[ December 01, 2002, 18:53: Message edited by: Rexxx ]

[capnq]

The stock EEE had to be peaceful/forgiving to make use of the Ancient Race trait at all. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm convinced that that's a typo/bug in the stock game; IMO the 2000-point Eee should be Mechanoids like their other two options, rather than Ancient.

[Master Belisarius]

United Flora vs Romulans.
The United Flora defeated the Romulans, before the turn 290. The Romulans never were able to stop the United Flora's waves of ships.
Here the link: UFlora_vs_Romulans_S2.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1038771256.zip)

Now, I'm starting a game between 2 strong AIs, and a B5 duel: Narn vs EA.

[Master Belisarius]

Narn vs EA.
Turn 47.
The Narn is ahead in the numbers... but both races signed a Trade Alliance. Hope they break this treaty... if not, will be a boring game until the turn 500.
Turn 500.
A boooring game... and the EA won by points.
Here the link: Narn_vs_EA_S3.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/Narn_vs_EA_S3.zip)

[ December 01, 2002, 22:32: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

[God Emperor]

MB,
Just wondering whether you could do me a favour and at some point run the Klingons vs the Aquileans on Low Bonus. Would be interested to assess their performance and deficiencies under that condition.
Thanks,

GE

[Master Belisarius]

Originally posted by God Emperor:
MB,
Just wondering whether you could do me a favour and at some point run the Klingons vs the Aquileans on Low Bonus. Would be interested to assess their performance and deficiencies under that condition.
Thanks,

GE<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sure. But give me a few days...

[Master Belisarius]

Namovans vs Jraenar.
Like in other games, the Namovans had a slow start, but finished using sun destroyers and planet destroyers against the Jraenar... The Jraenar surrender after the turn 455.
Here the link: Namovans_vs_Jraenar_S3.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1038787633.zip)

Now, I'm starting a decisive game between the Toron and EEE. The winner will be in the next round.

[ December 02, 2002, 00:09: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

[Master Belisarius]

Toron vs EEE.
Turn 50.
Bad news: both races signed a military alliance. Then, probably we will have a new boring game...
Turn 308.
The military alliance is still there... and the Toron is winning by points.
WEIRD!!!!!!! but the EEE had lot of available planets to colonize into their own systems, but are not colonizing the Rock/Ice planets!!
Turn 398.
Finally the EEE has decided to colonize the rock/ice planets, and now are in the first place.
Turn 500.
The EEE won and go to the next round!
Here the link:
Toron_vs_EEE_S1.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1038799303.zip)

I'm starting Vikings vs Pyrochette (and will let run the game during the night).
Although the Vikings can't go to the next round, if they are the winners, I will need an extra game to determine the first place in the group.

[ December 02, 2002, 03:24: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

[Master Belisarius]

Vikings vs Pyrochette.
The Vikings saved their pride, and crushed the Pyrochette before the turn 190.
Then, will need an extra game to see the first place of this group.
Think this was the more hard of the 3 Groups.

Here the link: Vikings_vs_Pyrochette_S1.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1038869945.zip)

[ December 02, 2002, 23:05: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

[Rexxx]

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
WEIRD!!!!!!! but the EEE had lot of available planets to colonize into their own systems, but are not colonizing the Rock/Ice planets!!
Turn 398.
Finally the EEE has decided to colonize the rock/ice planets, and now are in the first place.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Just checked the savegames and I think I found the explanation:
Around turn 55 the EEE discovered rock planet colonization. They didn't start building rock colonizers because - at this point - they already had the maximum number of colonizing ships the contruction file called for (5). They couldn't use their available ships because all colonizable gas giants were in "friendly" systems and having only a military alliance made it impossible to use them.
Till turn 263 - when they finished their Create Planet ship - nothing happened, no new colonies, just an endless stream of retrofit activities. At some point even the orders from the construction unit file run out. No more construction at all for years and years and...
It took them until turn 325 to create the first Gas Giant, before that they created 12 rock and 9 ice planets (!!!).
At Last they could use one of their colonizers, their empire awoke. At turn 400 they had 88 colonies (from turn 55 to 325 there were no less than 29).
I think the Toron basically had the same problem. They developed Ice Planet colonization around turn 50 but had - at this point - one open colonizer slot and could expand further but very very slow. (At least that's what I'm guessing)

That's why I fear peaceful opponents, the AI respects friendly borders which could be annoying, actually it can kill expansion at all.

If someone has an idea how such a "dead end" can be avoided, please let me know. Researching Stellar Manipulations earlier would reduce the problem but not solve it. The ability of calling for different types of colonizers would be a solution, but that is impossible so far.

Did somebody find a pattern behind creating planets activities? A 12-9-0 result is terrible, at least for Gas Giant races. I asked this question already in http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=007536 but make assurance double sure... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Have to admit that I never tested any kind of stellar manipulation techs so far.

This contest is just great: it leads to questions I never would have thought of.

Very interesting results. The Toron and the EEE defeated the Vikings, were defeated by the Pyrochette who lost their game against the Vikings.

[oleg]

Originally posted by Rexxx:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
WEIRD!!!!!!! but the EEE had lot of available planets to colonize into their own systems, but are not colonizing the Rock/Ice planets!!
Turn 398.
Finally the EEE has decided to colonize the rock/ice planets, and now are in the first place.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Just checked the savegames and I think I found the explanation:
-----
The ability of calling for different types of colonizers would be a solution, but that is impossible so far.
------
.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Why ? Just make colony ship designs with different names for Rock/Ice/Gas and use these names in construction_vehicles file instead of generic "colony ship". Also, be sure to add up "must have" numbers for different colony ships.

[Rexxx]

Originally posted by oleg:
Why ? Just make colony ship designs with different names for Rock/Ice/Gas and use these names in construction_vehicles file instead of generic "colony ship". Also, be sure to add up "must have" numbers for different colony ships.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think, I just tried that in the beginning of my EEE modding. Used different names for the colonizers but failed.
Maybe I did something wrong will try it again.

[Rexxx]

It worked. Great. Thanks, Oleg.
Found my first (and only) attempt to do so and found the flaw in it: I didn't adapt the must have numbers accordingly.
Obviously, that penny dropped much later. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Captain Kwok]

Can we see the standings for the second round?

[Master Belisarius]

Originally posted by Rexxx:
It worked. Great. Thanks, Oleg.
Found my first (and only) attempt to do so and found the flaw in it: I didn't adapt the must have numbers accordingly.
Obviously, that penny dropped much later. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hey, can you send me a copy???? I wanted to do somethink like that, but like you in the past, had not success.

[Master Belisarius]

Originally posted by Captain Kwok:
Can we see the standings for the second round?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">For now the AIs in the next round are (could be):

- EEE-Pyrochette (need to play an extra game to see who is first and who second).

- Aquilaeian-(Klingons or United Flora).

- EA-(Namovans or Narn).

[ December 03, 2002, 01:43: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

[Master Belisarius]

Romulans vs Aquilaeian.
The Aquilaeian defeated the Romulans before the turn 320, and reached the first place in the group 2.
Here the link: Romulans_vs_Aquilaeian_S2.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1038882457.zip)

Now, I'm starting the game between United Flora and Klingons: a decisive match for a place in the next round.

[Master Belisarius]

Originally posted by TerranC:
I know this is a big request, but could you post the AI Versions used for the top 12 AIs that made it?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ok Terranc, here are the AI files, excluding the EEE files (due Rexxx request).

AI_Files_Contest.ZIP (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1038883280.ZIP)

[Rexxx]

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
Hey, can you send me a copy???? I wanted to do somethink like that, but like you in the past, had not success.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">My attempt was for the Not Connected state. Useful for testing purposes, apart from that pretty useless.
Will change and test the construction file for the other states next weekend (hopefully) and send it to you. I use 4 Versions of colonizers for each planet type, there are lots of must have numbers to be changed and tested.

[Master Belisarius]

Originally posted by Rexxx:
My attempt was for the Not Connected state. Useful for testing purposes, apart from that pretty useless.
Will change and test the construction file for the other states next weekend (hopefully) and send it to you. I use 4 Versions of colonizers for each planet type, there are lots of must have numbers to be changed and tested.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ok, thanks!

[Master Belisarius]

The United Flora defeated the Klingons before the turn 360, and then, got the second place to be in the next round.
Here the link: UFlora_vs_Klingons_S2.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1038953443.zip)

[ December 03, 2002, 22:16: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

[Master Belisarius]

The EA defeated the Jraenar, and are first in their group.
Here the link: Jraenar_vs_EA_S3.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1038958677.zip)

Now I'm starting the game between Narn and Namovans: the winner will continue.

[ December 03, 2002, 23:40: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

[Master Belisarius]

The Narn killed the Namovans before the turn 290, and then, they are in the third round.
Here the link: Namonvans_vs_Narn_S3.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1038964681.zip)

The races in the third round are:
EEE
Pyrochette
Aquilaeian
United Flora
Earth Alliance
Narn Regime

Now, I'm starting a game between the EEE and Pyrochette, to determinate who is first and who second in the group.

[Master Belisarius]

The Pyrochette won by points against the EEE, after the turn 500, then, finished first in the group.
After see the savefile with the number 500, realized that the game really was runned until the turn 98. And because the difference of points was not high, decided to run manually 2 more turns. After it, the Pyrochette still were the winners.
Here the link: EEE_vs_Pyrochette_TB1.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1039042478.zip)

[ December 04, 2002, 23:32: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

[Master Belisarius]

I did the test game between Klingons and Aquilaeian, with small bonus. The Aquilaeian defeated them before the turn 311.
The Klingons during all the game had enough resources (well, except when the big riots started).
They built some minesweepers. But anyway, had problems to remove the minefields, because had not many mine-sweeper devices.
Here the link: Klingons_vs_Aquilaeian_Test.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1039057046.zip)

[Master Belisarius]

Ok, I'm starting the Third Round.

Group 1
Pyrochette
United Flora
Earth Alliance

Group 2
Aquilaeian
EEE
Narn

I'm starting the game between Pyrochette and United Flora.

[God Emperor]

MB,
Thanks for that. Have been working on an update which addresses the minesweeper issue and improves ship designs further (Research queues have been optimised more). The Dead Match has been most useful in tweaking my AI's further.
Regards,

GE http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ December 05, 2002, 10:14: Message edited by: God Emperor ]

[Master Belisarius]

Hey guys thanks for your support! And yes, I think that looking the games, all the AI moders can get elements to improve the AI scripts.

The game between Pyrochette and United Flora was running during the night, and the Pyrochette erased the Last UF's planets, before the turn 370.

Here the link: Pyrochette_vs_UFlora_T1.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1039127578.zip)

[ December 05, 2002, 22:35: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

[Gryphin]

MB, Yes thanks. I expect to have a tougher time and more suprises.
Hmm, I was wrong in my calculations. I expected the UF to win all the way.
I'm going to have to try the Pyros.

[Rexxx]

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
After it, the Pyrochette still were the winners.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And they will be forever.

Again the lack of radioactives (among other things).
During the Last days I fired quite a few of my ministers, my poor emperor was surrounded by idiots... Of course, it was clearly their responsibility! Why did you ask?

A Pyrochette fleet of 103 ships, wow. Well, I guess the EEE colonists in the Arklite system and the crews of their 20-ships-fleets used other words about that monster heading towards them. Fortunately for them the game ended after turn 500... BTW the fleet minister was fired too.

I cannot say that the EEE are looking forward to facing the Aquilaeian. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Master Belisarius]

Originally posted by Gryphin:
MB, Hmm, I was wrong in my calculations. I expected the UF to win all the way.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yep, believed the UF would win too...
The "Quad Damage" bug, could be one of the reasons. (But the bug with the Organic Armors helped the UF).
Anyway, think the Pyrochette has a solid management of the resources, resist very well the riots, and has decent ship designes, then, believe these could be some of their arguments to reach the victory.

[Master Belisarius]

Originally posted by Rexxx:

And they will be forever.

Again the lack of radioactives (among other things).
During the Last days I fired quite a few of my ministers, my poor emperor was surrounded by idiots... Of course, it was clearly their responsibility! Why did you ask?

A Pyrochette fleet of 103 ships, wow. Well, I guess the EEE colonists in the Arklite system and the crews of their 20-ships-fleets used other words about that monster heading towards them. Fortunately for them the game ended after turn 500... BTW the fleet minister was fired too.

I cannot say that the EEE are looking forward to facing the Aquilaeian. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Rexxx, don't worry about the ministers... they're bad for everybody!!! If some day I start a new contest, think will run it with small bonus.

About the fleet minister... well, think this is the main reason because the AI has big problems to defeat humans.

[Atraikius]

MB, you have my thanks too.
Observing how the races have done throughout the game has been really useful for finding the things that needed to be tweeked - wonder what the AI revisions that result from this are going to be like http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Master Belisarius]

United Flora vs Earth Alliance.
The United Flora won by points. A balanced game, but at the end the UF got a deserved victory.
Here the link: UFlora_vs_EA_T1.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1039145161.zip)

Now I'm starting the game between the Aquilaeian and EEE.

[Master Belisarius]

Before go to sleep, I left running the game between Aquilaeian and EEE.
Well… my computer crashed near to the 01:10 AM, then, only ran 179 turns (the Aquilaeian winning by points, but nothing decided yet).
Then, before come to my job, I left running the game again… hope this time everything will be ok.

The EEE defeated the Aquilaeian, before the turn 357.
Here the link: Aquilaeian_vs_EEE_T2.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1039212290.zip)

Now, I'm starting the game between the EEE and Narn.

[ December 06, 2002, 22:06: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

[Master Belisarius]

EEE vs Narn.
Both empires had a good relationship during most part of the game (Military alliance), but at some point, the war started.
The Narn erased the Last EEE planets before the turn 460.
Here the link: EEE_vs_Narn_T2.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1039228957.zip)

[ December 07, 2002, 02:54: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

[Master Belisarius]

EA vs Pyrochette.
A balanced game most the time, and the EA had some success first.
But after the turn 350 the Pyrochette started to change the game to their side.
The Pyrochette won before the turn 480.

The Link: EA_vs_Pyrochette_T1.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1039266260.zip)

[Master Belisarius]

The United Flora has taken revenge, and defeated the Pyrochette by points.
Here the link: UFlora_vs_Pyrochette_T1.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1039287104.zip)

[Rexxx]

Found it surprising that there are different results in game 1 and game 2.
It was a very good idea to have 2 games between the AIs in this round. It seems that they are very close to each other.

[ December 07, 2002, 23:19: Message edited by: Rexxx ]

[Master Belisarius]

Originally posted by Rexxx:
Found it surprising that there are different results in game 1 and game 2.
It was a very good idea to have 2 games between the AIs in this round. It seems that they there are very close to each other.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yep. Agree with you.
Think that those idle fleets that time in time we can see here and there, can decide a game when 2 close AIs fight.

[Master Belisarius]

The Narn defeated the Aquilaeian.
They're very solid and will be in the next round... and are great candidate to win, I think.
Here the link: Narn_vs_Aquilaeian_T2.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1039304137.zip)

[ December 07, 2002, 23:40: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

[Master Belisarius]

EEE vs Aquilaeian.
Was the first victory for the Aquilaeian on this round.
The EEE surrendered to the Aquilaeian at the turn 400, although still they had several systems.
Here the link: EEE_vs_Aquilaeian_T2.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1039354400.zip)

[geoschmo]

Cool! You got the AI to demand someone's surrender? Nice.

[Master Belisarius]

Originally posted by geoschmo:
Cool! You got the AI to demand someone's surrender? Nice.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yep. More than once on this contest, an AI surrendered to other.
The question is that most of the AIs, refuse to surrender...
By the way, I like your new Avatar!

[ December 08, 2002, 20:48: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

[Master Belisarius]

EA vs United Flora.
This time, the victory was for the Earth Alliance, before the turn 460.
Here the link: EA_vs_UFlora_T1.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1039380353.zip)

[Rollo]

Thanks for all this work, MB http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

Rollo

[Master Belisarius]

Narn vs EEE.
The EEE won by points, by a short margin: 4.2 vs 4.3!!
The Narn had the problem with the Colonizers (too many rock), and then, never colonized Gas Giant planets!! Without this problem, they would been the winners...
Here the link: Narn_vs_EEE_T2.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1039392961.zip)

[ December 09, 2002, 00:20: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

[Master Belisarius]

Originally posted by Rollo:
Thanks for all this work, MB http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

Rollo<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thanks Rollo! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
But I liked the work! And it's very interesting to me!
And honestly, my computer does the job, not me!

[Master Belisarius]

Pyrochette vs Earth Alliance.
The Pyrochette killed the Last EA's planets, before the turn 480.
Then, the Pyrochette and the United Flora will go to the next round.
Here the link: Pyrochette_vs_EA_T1.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1039473158.zip)

Now, I'm starting the game between Aquilaeian and Narn. If the Narn are the winners, then, will get the first place and the EEE the second. If the Aquilaeian win (what I doubt), will need to play a new serie of games for this round...

[Master Belisarius]

Aquilaeian vs Narn.
The Narn defeated the Aquilaeian, at the turn 350.
The Aquilaeian's ships never were able to hit the Narn's ships, and in the other hand, the Narn's ships always hit the Aquilaeian's ships...
Was a lost battle from the first turn.
Here the link: Aquilaeian_vs_Narn_T2.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1039484115.zip)

Then, the Groups for the round fourth are:

F1
Pyrochette
EEE

F2
Narn
United Flora

The first AI to win 2 games, will go to the final.

[ December 10, 2002, 01:37: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

[Master Belisarius]

Round Fourth.

During the night, I have played 2 games:

Pyrochette vs EEE.
The Pyrochette defeated the EEE, at the turn 315.

Narn vs United Flora.
The Narn defeated the United Flora before the turn 310.

Later will post the link.

Pyrochette vs EEE.
Pyrochette_vs_EEE_F1.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1039558010.zip)

Narn vs United Flora.
Narn_vs_UFlora_F2.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1039558590.zip)

[ December 10, 2002, 22:17: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

[Ruatha]

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
Round Fourth.
The Narn defeated the Narn before the turn 310.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Suicide? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[ December 10, 2002, 14:38: Message edited by: Ruatha ]

[Master Belisarius]

Originally posted by Ruatha:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
Round Fourth.
The Narn defeated the Narn before the turn 310.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Suicide? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hugh! Thanks for the tip!
It was homicide...

[Master Belisarius]

EEE vs Pyrochette.
The EEE surrendered their Last planets to the Pyrochette, before the turn 440.
Then, the Pyrochette won a place in the final.

Here the link: EEE_vs_Pyrochette_F1.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1039646993.zip)

[ December 11, 2002, 22:50: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

[Master Belisarius]

United Flora vs Narn

Turn 94.
A balanced game. The UF are ahead in the numbers, but the Narn are close.

A balanced game??? The UF surrendered their empire, at the turn 225!

Here the link: UFlora_vs_Narn_F2.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1039651357.zip)

Later will start the first game between the Narn and Pyrochette... think the Narn should be the winners.

[ December 12, 2002, 00:03: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

[Master Belisarius]

Pyrochette vs Narn.
As expected, the Narn killed the Last Pyrochette's planets, before the turn 430.
Here the link: Pyrochette_vs_Narn_Final1.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1039731715.zip)

[ December 12, 2002, 22:24: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

[Master Belisarius]

Narn vs Pyrochette
The Narn crushed the Pyrochette before the turn 360.
Here the link:
Narn_vs_Pyrochette_Final2.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1039741470.zip)

I think the next match will be the Last of this marathon... and the Narn will be officially proclaimed the winners of this contest.

EDIT: well... my computer crashed again during the night, then, later will finish this game.

[ December 13, 2002, 12:58: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

[Master Belisarius]

Ok, the NARN are the WINNERS!
Defeated the Pyrochette again, at the turn 460.

Here the link: Pyrochette_vs_Narn_Final3.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1039871102.zip)

Here a link with an XLS with match Results and positions:
AIDeadmatchContest.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1039872586.zip)

That's all friends!

[ December 14, 2002, 13:32: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

[TerranC]

The Narn?

The Narn is the best AI one to one?

That's unexpected.

[ December 14, 2002, 16:19: Message edited by: TerranC ]

[Master Belisarius]

Originally posted by TerranC:
The Narn?

The Narn are the best AI one to one?

That's unexpected.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">With the map that I have used, the AIs had time to research deep in their tech trees... and then, when the Narn can develop their Last ships, are unstoppable for other AIs: good ship designes + Talisman + very good defensiveness it's too much for other AIs.
Also, they proved to expand fast and has a solid resource management.
Interesting, but the Narn lost 2 games, and were games against peaceful races.

[Urendi Maleldil]

Hey, that was really cool. MB, could you run another deadmatch next month?

[capnq]

MB, could you post a summary of the final "standings"? I'm curious about the overall results, but not enough to reread a 13 page thread. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[DarkHorse]

Originally posted by capnq:
MB, could you post a summary of the final "standings"? I'm curious about the overall results, but not enough to reread a 13 page thread. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">He did:

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
Here a link with an XLS with match Results and positions:
AIDeadmatchContest.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1039872586.zip)<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

[ December 14, 2002, 22:15: Message edited by: DarkHorse ]

[capnq]

could you post a summary of the final "standings"?

He did <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shows how much attention I've been paying. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif Thanks for the link.

[Stone Mill]

Son of a gun. The Narn? I would have lost my money...
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Excellent job, M.B.! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[Master Belisarius]

Originally posted by Urendi Maleldil:
Hey, that was really cool. MB, could you run another deadmatch next month?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Give me a rest!
My computer is suffering an stress problem after run this contest!
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Master Belisarius]

Originally posted by Stone Mill:
Son of a gun. The Narn? I would have lost my money...
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Excellent job, M.B.! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thanks!

And I would have lost my money too... The Narn has been improved a lot from their first Versions... Mephisto did an excelent job.

[SamuraiProgrammer]

I will expose my ignorance and please forgive me if I am missing something obvious...

How do you set up a game to be run between the two AIs and be able to watch?

[Mephisto]

Hehe. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Thanks for all the work you have done, M.B.!

[Master Belisarius]

Originally posted by SamuraiProgrammer:
I will expose my ignorance and please forgive me if I am missing something obvious...

How do you set up a game to be run between the two AIs and be able to watch?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
No problem!
-You need to start a new game (of course!)
-Include an empire for the “human” player (usually the first player)-
-Include the AI empires that you want to test.
-Select the simultaneous movement option.
-I did a program where you can run x number of turns in a batch mode, for games with simultaneous movement. It’s named SE4 Batch (you can find it into the download section). This program can keep savegames every determined number of turns (you can indicate how many).