Damage Calculation [Archive] - .com.unity Forums

tbontob

November 16th, 2002, 04:41 AM

Thanks Phoenix-D for your list

I am wondering if we can expand on it to include the special cases.

ATTACK BONUSES:
Racial characteristic (aggressiveness)
Combat Sensors
..lvl 1 25%
..lvl 2 45%
..lvl 3 65%
Weapon attack bonus
..PDC's 70%
..Ripper Beam 10%
..Wave-Motion Gun 30%
..High Energy Magifier 30% (crystalline)
..Tachyon Cannon 10% (temporal)
Cultral trait: space combat
Ship Experience level
..lvl 1 10%
..lvl 2 15%
..lvl 3 20%
Fleet Experience level
..lvl 1 10%
..lvl 2 15%
..lvl 3 20%
Chassis bonus (ex:
..fighters 50%

DEFENCE BONUSES:
Racial characteristic (defensiveness)
ECM
..lvl 1 20%
..lvl 2 40%
..lvl 3 60%
Cultral trait: space combat
Ship Experience level
..lvl 1 10%
..lvl 2 15%
..lvl 3 20%
Fleet Experience level
..lvl 1 10%
..lvl 2 15%
..lvl 3 20%
Scattering Armor
..lvl 1 5%
..lvl 2 10%
..lvl 3 15%
Stealth Armor
..lvl 1 5%
..lvl 2 10%
..lvl 3 15%
Chassis bonus
..fighters 40%? bonus

[EDIT]SPECIAL CASE
Religious talisman sets the bonus at 100% (cannot be modified by the attack/defense bonuses)

[ November 16, 2002, 02:46: Message edited by: tbontob ]

tbontob

November 16th, 2002, 04:43 AM

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
Yes. The key here is that the Talisman SETS it to 100% no matter what, rather than simply ADDING 100%.

No matter how much defense bonus you have, the talisman trumps it.

Without the talisman, you also get a max of 99%. Ships have been known to MISS a planet by that 1% http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Actually that was why I put it in as a special case...it is just automatically 100% chance to hit.

tbontob

November 16th, 2002, 04:52 AM

Probably a better way to put it...

Factors which affect the probability of a hit:

ATTACK BONUSES:
Racial characteristic (aggressiveness)
Combat Sensors
..lvl 1 25%
..lvl 2 45%
..lvl 3 65%
Weapon attack bonus
..PDC's 70%
..Ripper Beam 10%
..Wave-Motion Gun 30%
..High Energy Magifier 30% (crystalline)
..Tachyon Cannon 10% (temporal)
Cultral trait: space combat
Ship Experience level
..lvl 1 10%
..lvl 2 15%
..lvl 3 20%
Fleet Experience level
..lvl 1 10%
..lvl 2 15%
..lvl 3 20%
Chassis bonus (ex:
..fighters 50%

DEFENCE BONUSES:
Racial characteristic (defensiveness)
ECM
..lvl 1 20%
..lvl 2 40%
..lvl 3 60%
Cultral trait: space combat
Ship Experience level
..lvl 1 10%
..lvl 2 15%
..lvl 3 20%
Fleet Experience level
..lvl 1 10%
..lvl 2 15%
..lvl 3 20%
Scattering Armor
..lvl 1 5%
..lvl 2 10%
..lvl 3 15%
Stealth Armor
..lvl 1 5%
..lvl 2 10%
..lvl 3 15%
Chassis bonus
..fighters 40%? bonus

[EDIT]SPECIAL CASE
Religious talisman sets the probability of a hit at 100% (cannot be modified by the attack/defense bonuses or changed by the 1% rule to 99%)

Suicide Junkie

November 16th, 2002, 04:54 AM

The experience bonuses do not depend on tech level. Only the acutal experience a ship has.

They can be trained for "free" experience, but it takes time to complete, and they can also get up to 50% experience through battle.

tbontob

November 16th, 2002, 04:59 AM

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
The experience bonuses do not depend on tech level. Only the acutal experience a ship has.

They can be trained for "free" experience, but it takes time to complete, and they can also get up to 50% experience through battle.SJ, it is a good point, I'll include it in the list a bit later...

What do you mean by 'trained for "free" experience'? Do you mean the training from the Ship Training Facility?

[ November 16, 2002, 03:07: Message edited by: tbontob ]

tbontob

November 16th, 2002, 05:33 AM

Updated list.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Factors which affect the probability of a hit:

ATTACK BONUSES:
Racial characteristic (aggressiveness)
Combat Sensors
..lvl 1 25%
..lvl 2 45%
..lvl 3 65%
Weapon attack bonus
..PDC's 70%
..Ripper Beam 10%
..Wave-Motion Gun 30%
..High Energy Magifier 30% (crystalline)
..Tachyon Cannon 10% (temporal)
Cultral trait: space combat
Ship Experience level
..0 to 50%
....obtained by actual experience
....can be trained by Ship Training Facility to maximum of:
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
Fleet Experience level
..0 to 50%
....obtained by actual experience
....can be trained by Fleet Training Facility to maximum of:
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
Chassis bonus (ex:
..fighters 50%

DEFENCE BONUSES:
Racial characteristic (defensiveness)
ECM
..lvl 1 20%
..lvl 2 40%
..lvl 3 60%
Cultral trait: space combat
Ship Experience level
..0 to 50%
....obtained by actual experience
....can be trained by Ship Training Facility to maximum of:
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
Fleet Experience level
..0 to 50%
....obtained by actual experience
....can be trained by Fleet Training Facility to maximum of:
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
Scattering Armor
..lvl 1 5%
..lvl 2 10%
..lvl 3 15%
Stealth Armor
..lvl 1 5%
..lvl 2 10%
..lvl 3 15%
Chassis bonus
..fighters 40%? bonus

[EDIT]SPECIAL CASE
Religious talisman sets the probability of a hit at 100% (cannot be modified by the attack/defense bonuses or changed by the 1% reduction rule to 99%)

tbontob

November 16th, 2002, 05:35 AM

Does anyon know for sure what a fighter's defence bonus is?

I'd like to include it with the small ships and drones defensive bonuses.

Krsqk

November 16th, 2002, 05:38 AM

As far as determining actual damage, Death Shrines add a 5/10/15% bonus to actual damage amount for weapons fired in that system. IIRC, that is.

Krsqk

November 16th, 2002, 05:44 AM

Fighters have a 50% offense bonus and a 60/70/80% defense bonus for large/medium/small hulls, respectively.

tbontob

November 16th, 2002, 05:46 AM

New, new list http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Factors which affect the probability of a hit:

ATTACK BONUSES:
Racial characteristic (aggressiveness)
Combat Sensors
..lvl 1 25%
..lvl 2 45%
..lvl 3 65%
Weapon attack bonus
..PDC's 70%
..Ripper Beam 10%
..Wave-Motion Gun 30%
..High Energy Magifier 30% (crystalline)
..Tachyon Cannon 10% (temporal)
Cultral trait: space combat
Ship Experience level
..0 to 50%
....obtained by actual experience
....can be trained by Ship Training Facility to maximum of:
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
Fleet Experience level
..0 to 50%
....obtained by actual experience
....can be trained by Fleet Training Facility to maximum of:
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
Chassis bonus (ex:
..fighters 50%

DEFENCE BONUSES:
Racial characteristic (defensiveness)
ECM
..lvl 1 20%
..lvl 2 40%
..lvl 3 60%
Cultral trait: space combat
Ship Experience level
..0 to 50%
....obtained by actual experience
....can be trained by Ship Training Facility to maximum of:
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
Fleet Experience level
..0 to 50%
....obtained by actual experience
....can be trained by Fleet Training Facility to maximum of:
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
Scattering Armor
..lvl 1 5%
..lvl 2 10%
..lvl 3 15%
Stealth Armor
..lvl 1 5%
..lvl 2 10%
..lvl 3 15%
Chassis bonus
..drones 50%
..fighters 40%? bonus
..escort 40%
..frigate 30%
..destroyer 20%
..light cruiser 10%
..baseship (40%) brackets denote easier to hit
..space station (20%)
..battle station (40%)
..starbase (60%)

[EDIT]SPECIAL CASE
Religious talisman sets the probability of a hit at 100% (cannot be modified by the attack/defense bonuses or changed by the 1% reduction rule to 99%)

tbontob

November 16th, 2002, 05:58 AM

Thanks Krsqk for the info on fighters.

On the Shrines, it is my understanding they do not affect the probability to hit but the damage amount. So, I�ve started a new Category for damage bonus.

Factors which affect the probability of a hit:

ATTACK BONUSES:
Racial characteristic (aggressiveness)
Combat Sensors
..lvl 1 25%
..lvl 2 45%
..lvl 3 65%
Weapon attack bonus
..PDC's 70%
..Ripper Beam 10%
..Wave-Motion Gun 30%
..High Energy Magifier 30% (crystalline)
..Tachyon Cannon 10% (temporal)
Cultral trait: space combat
Ship Experience level
..0 to 50%
....obtained by actual experience
....can be trained by Ship Training Facility to maximum of:
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
Fleet Experience level
..0 to 50%
....obtained by actual experience
....can be trained by Fleet Training Facility to maximum of:
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
Chassis bonus
..fighters 50%

DEFENCE BONUSES:
Racial characteristic (defensiveness)
ECM
..lvl 1 20%
..lvl 2 40%
..lvl 3 60%
Cultral trait: space combat
Ship Experience level
..0 to 50%
....obtained by actual experience
....can be trained by Ship Training Facility to maximum of:
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
Fleet Experience level
..0 to 50%
....obtained by actual experience
....can be trained by Fleet Training Facility to maximum of:
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
Scattering Armor
..lvl 1 5%
..lvl 2 10%
..lvl 3 15%
Stealth Armor
..lvl 1 5%
..lvl 2 10%
..lvl 3 15%
Chassis bonus
..drones 50%
..fighters, small 80%
..fighters, medium 70%
..fighters, large 60%
..escort 40%
..frigate 30%
..destroyer 20%
..light cruiser 10%
..baseship (40%) brackets denote easier to hit
..space station (20%)
..battle station (40%)
..starbase (60%)

SPECIAL CASE
Religious talisman sets the probability of a hit at 100% (cannot be modified by the attack/defense bonuses or changed by the 1% reduction rule to 99%)
================================================
DAMAGE BONUS
..Death Shrine 1 (Religious) 5% damage bonus to all weapons used in system
..Death Shrine 2 (Religious) 10% damage bonus to all weapons used in system
..Death Shrine 3 (Religious) 15% damage bonus to all weapons used in system

tbontob

November 16th, 2002, 06:15 AM

New, newer, newest list http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Factors which affect the probability of a hit:

ATTACK BONUSES:
Racial characteristic (aggressiveness)
..race creation points. 75% - 125% (Negative if below 100%)
..Berzerkers 10%
..Warriors 5%
..Politicians 2%
..Zealots 5%
..Engineers �5%
..Merchants -2%
..Renegades 2%
Combat Sensors
..lvl 1 25%
..lvl 2 45%
..lvl 3 65%
Weapon attack bonus
..PDC's 70%
..Ripper Beam 10%
..Wave-Motion Gun 30%
..High Energy Magifier 30% (crystalline)
..Tachyon Cannon 10% (temporal)
Cultral trait: space combat
Ship Experience level
..0 to 50%
....obtained by actual experience
....can be trained by Ship Training Facility to maximum of:
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
Fleet Experience level
..0 to 50%
....obtained by actual experience
....can be trained by Fleet Training Facility to maximum of:
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
Chassis bonus
..fighters 50%

DEFENCE BONUSES:
Racial characteristic (defensiveness)
..race creation points. 75% - 125% (Negative if below 100%)
..Berzerkers 10%
..Warriors 5%
..Politicians 2%
..Zealots 5%
..Engineers �5%
..Merchants -2%
..Renegades 2%
ECM
..lvl 1 20%
..lvl 2 40%
..lvl 3 60%
Ship Experience level
..0 to 50%
....obtained by actual experience
....can be trained by Ship Training Facility to maximum of:
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
Fleet Experience level
..0 to 50%
....obtained by actual experience
....can be trained by Fleet Training Facility to maximum of:
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
Scattering Armor
..lvl 1 5%
..lvl 2 10%
..lvl 3 15%
Stealth Armor
..lvl 1 5%
..lvl 2 10%
..lvl 3 15%
Chassis bonus
..drones 50%
..fighters, small 80%
..fighters, medium 70%
..fighters, large 60%
..escort 40%
..frigate 30%
..destroyer 20%
..light cruiser 10%
..baseship �40%
..space station �20%
..battle station �40%
..starbase �60%

SPECIAL CASE
Religious talisman sets the probability of a hit at 100% (cannot be modified by the attack/defense bonuses or changed by the 1% reduction rule to 99%)
================================================
DAMAGE BONUS
..Death Shrine 1 (Religious) 5% damage bonus to all weapons used in system

..Death Shrine 2 (Religious) 10% damage bonus to all weapons used in system
..Death Shrine 3 (Religious) 15% damage bonus to all weapons used in system

tbontob

November 16th, 2002, 06:37 AM

Hey guys...don't tell me my list is perfect. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I can see one mistake http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif Who can find it? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

dumbluck

November 16th, 2002, 09:55 AM

Temporal Events Predictor gives a system-wide tohit bonus (I don't remember how much, though...) And I thought that Religious had a tohit/ecm bonus shrine, as well as the death shrine...

Quikngruvn

November 16th, 2002, 03:33 PM

For one thing, you've got the Space Combat cultural modifiers listed under the Racial Trait heading. It should be something like....

ATTACK BONUSES:
Racial characteristic (aggressiveness)
..race creation points assigned �25% to 25%
Cultural trait: space combat [fixed typo]
..Berzerkers 10%
..Warriors 5%
..Politicians 2%
..Zealots 5%
..Engineers �5%
..Merchants -2%
..Renegades 2%

...

DEFENCE BONUSES
Racial characteristic (defensiveness)
..race creation points assigned �25% to 25%
Cultural trait: space combat
..Berzerkers 10%
..Warriors 5%
..Politicians 2%
..Zealots 5%
..Engineers �5%
..Merchants -2%
..Renegades 2%

Also, certain Base and Weapon Platform mounts give a bonus to hit:

Large WP/Base Mount: +40%
Heavy WP/Base Mount: +60%
Massive WP/Base Mount: +80%

Quikngruvn

TerranC

November 16th, 2002, 04:06 PM

Ship Experience level
..0 to 50%
....obtained by actual experience
....can be trained by Ship Training Facility (including temporal) to maximum of:
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
Fleet Experience level
..0 to 50%
....obtained by actual experience
....can be trained by Fleet Training Facility (including temporal) to maximum of:
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%

I don't understand. What do you mean by Including Temporal? If you are talking about a Traning facility within the temporal racial tech, you're mistaken. It's the psychic racial tech, and it's system-wide.

Suicide Junkie

November 16th, 2002, 04:26 PM

SJ...I will fix it if it continues to stump the experts. Seriously. There are more than enough REAL problems to solve without making more.
A minute wasted looking for problems you already know about is a minute less of playing SE4 for me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

I guess I should just ignore this thread for a while, instead.

[ November 16, 2002, 19:04: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

tbontob

November 16th, 2002, 09:27 PM

Originally posted by Quikngruvn:
For one thing, you've got the Space Combat cultural modifiers listed under the Racial Trait heading. It should be something like....

ATTACK BONUSES:
Racial characteristic (aggressiveness)
..race creation points assigned �25% to 25%
Cultural trait: space combat [fixed typo]
..Berzerkers 10%
..Warriors 5%
..Politicians 2%
..Zealots 5%
..Engineers �5%
..Merchants -2%
..Renegades 2%

...

DEFENCE BONUSES
Racial characteristic (defensiveness)
..race creation points assigned �25% to 25%
Cultural trait: space combat
..Berzerkers 10%
..Warriors 5%
..Politicians 2%
..Zealots 5%
..Engineers �5%
..Merchants -2%
..Renegades 2%

Also, certain Base and Weapon Platform mounts give a bonus to hit:

Large WP/Base Mount: +40%
Heavy WP/Base Mount: +60%
Massive WP/Base Mount: +80%

QuikngruvnThanx Quikngruvn for the headings.

Didn't know the WP's got an attack bonus! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Your improvements & WP data will go into the new update. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

tbontob

November 16th, 2002, 09:40 PM

Originally posted by TerranC:
Ship Experience level
..0 to 50%
....obtained by actual experience
....can be trained by Ship Training Facility (including temporal) to maximum of:
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
Fleet Experience level
..0 to 50%
....obtained by actual experience
....can be trained by Fleet Training Facility (including temporal) to maximum of:
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%

I don't understand. What do you mean by Including Temporal? If you are talking about a Traning facility within the temporal racial tech, you're mistaken. It's the psychic racial tech, and it's system-wide.TC...quite right. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

It is the Psychic ship training facility and the Temporal fleet training facility (which doesn't exit).

Must have been crosseyed when I transposed the data. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

Another error to correct. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

My understanding was that the training facilities only improve experience if the ships are in the same sector as the facility.

Thanks for telling me it is system wide.

Suicide Junkie

November 16th, 2002, 09:57 PM

My understanding was that the training facilities only improve experience if the ships are in the same sector as the facility.

Thanks for telling me it is system wideNormal ones DO require the ships to be in the same sector.
The Psychic Version of the facility broadcasts the training effect across the entire system.

tbontob

November 16th, 2002, 09:59 PM

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />SJ...I will fix it if it continues to stump the experts. Seriously. There are more than enough REAL problems to solve without making more.
A minute wasted looking for problems you already know about is a minute less of playing SE4 for me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

I guess I should just ignore this thread for a while, instead.<hr /></blockquote>SJ. I am sorry you feel that way. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

I can understand the frustration of knowing that there is something not right with the data and the insecurity of having to rely on incorrect information.

For myself, I like games. And I was hoping there are others out there who feel the way I do and will take up the challenge I threw out.

Often, I will spend hours trying to solve a puzzle which has no practical purpose whatsoever.

But the challenge I threw out does have a real purpose in addition to the fun aspect. I am not perfect. I assumed I made other mistakes. As it has turned out, a number of my mistakes have already surfaced. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Unfortunately we can be lazy creatures. There is a lot of data presented here and sometimes it is just easier to accept the data as it is presented rather than question its validity.

The challenge is meant to engage those who like a puzzle. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

The challenge also points out the fact that if I made one mistake, there very well could be others which may remain uncorrected unless the data is examined in a critical manner.

However, I do not want to be the cause unnecessary frustration and irritation. If I get a deluge of demands to correct it immediately, I would have no problem doing so.

As it stands, the error has not yet been discovered. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ November 16, 2002, 20:33: Message edited by: tbontob ]

tbontob

November 16th, 2002, 10:19 PM

NEW! NEW! IMPROVED! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Here�s the new up to date Attack/Defense bonus listing

And my error is still there... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
=============================================

Factors which affect the probability of a hit:

ATTACK BONUSES:
Racial characteristic (aggressiveness)
..race creation points assigned �25% to 25%
Cultural trait (amends aggressiveness)
..Berzerkers 10%
..Warriors 5%
..Politicians 2%
..Zealots 5%
..Engineers �5%
..Merchants -2%
..Renegades 2%
Combat Sensors
..lvl 1 25%
..lvl 2 45%
..lvl 3 65%
Weapon attack bonus
..PDC's 70%
..Ripper Beam 10%
..Wave-Motion Gun 30%
..High Energy Magifier 30% (crystalline)
..Tachyon Cannon 10% (temporal)
Cultral trait: space combat
Ship Experience level
..0 to 50%
....obtained by actual experience
....can be trained by Ship Training Facility (in sector) to maximum of:
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
�.can be trained by Psychic Ship Training Facility (in system) to a max of
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
Fleet Experience level
..0 to 50%
....obtained by actual experience
....can be trained by Fleet Training Facility (in sector) to maximum of:
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
�.can be trained by Psychic Fleet Training Facility (in system) to a max of
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
Chassis bonus
..fighters 50%
Facilities
..War Shrine (religious)
�.lvl 1 5% to in-system ships and units
�.lvl 2 10% to in-system ships and units
�.lvl 3 15% to in-system ships and units
..Events Predictor (temporal)
�.lvl 1 10% to in-system ships and units
�.lvl 2 20% to in-system ships and units
�.lvl 3 30% to in-system ships and units
Weapon Mount
..Large WP/Base Mount 40%
..Heavy WP/Base Mount 60%
..Massive WP/Base Mount 80%

DEFENCE BONUSES:
Racial characteristic (defensiveness)
..race creation points assigned �25% to 25%
Cultural trait (amends defensiveness)
..Berzerkers 10%
..Warriors 5%
..Politicians 2%
..Zealots 5%
..Engineers �5%
..Merchants -2%
..Renegades 2%
ECM
..lvl 1 20%
..lvl 2 40%
..lvl 3 60%
Ship Experience level
..0 to 50%
....obtained by actual experience
....can be trained by Ship Training Facility (in sector) to maximum of:
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
....can be trained by Psychic Ship Training Facility (in system) to max of:
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%

Fleet Experience level
..0 to 50%
....obtained by actual experience
....can be trained by Fleet Training Facility (in sector) to maximum of:
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
....can be trained by Psychic Fleet Training Facility (in system) to max of:
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
Scattering Armor
..lvl 1 5%
..lvl 2 10%
..lvl 3 15%
Stealth Armor
..lvl 1 5%
..lvl 2 10%
..lvl 3 15%
Chassis bonus
..drones 50%
..fighters, small 80%
..fighters, medium 70%
..fighters, large 60%
..escort 40%
..frigate 30%
..destroyer 20%
..light cruiser 10%
..baseship �40%
..space station �20%
..battle station �40%
..starbase �60%
Facilities
..War Shrine (religious)
�.lvl 1 5% to in-system ships and units
�.lvl 2 10% to in-system ships and units
�.lvl 3 15% to in-system ships and units
..Events Predictor (temporal)
�.lvl 1 10% to in-system ships and units
�.lvl 2 20% to in-system ships and units
�.lvl 3 30% to in-system ships and units

SPECIAL CASE
Religious talisman sets the probability of a hit at 100% (cannot be modified by the attack/defense bonuses or changed by the 1% reduction rule to 99%)
================================================
DAMAGE BONUS
..Death Shrine 1 (Religious) 5% damage bonus to all weapons used in system

..Death Shrine 2 (Religious) 10% damage bonus to all weapons used in system
..Death Shrine 3 (Religious) 15% damage bonus to all weapons used in system

tbontob

November 16th, 2002, 11:20 PM

What about mines?

Would they be in the special Category with the Talisman as having a 100% chance to hit?

Fyron

November 16th, 2002, 11:39 PM

Mines are not weapons.

Kamog

November 17th, 2002, 12:06 AM

Hmm, an error is supposed to be in the list? I like puzzles...
How about:

Ripper beams don't get a 10% bonus. Incinerator beams do.
You didn't include the hit percentage dropping with distance.

Kamog

November 17th, 2002, 12:55 AM

Weapon attack bonus
Mental singularity generator 20%

TerranC

November 17th, 2002, 01:34 AM

I think I got the error:

The space between death shrines.

Edit: Also, I thought the British spelling (also canadian) was Armour?

and HE Magnifier is spelled magifire.

Another Edit: I thought drones also had bonus offensive?

[ November 16, 2002, 23:40: Message edited by: TerranC ]

Fyron

November 17th, 2002, 02:08 AM

Also, I thought the British spelling (also canadian) was Armour?Looks like Armor in the game to me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

tbontob

November 17th, 2002, 02:27 AM

Originally posted by dumbluck:
Temporal Events Predictor gives a system-wide tohit bonus (I don't remember how much, though...) And I thought that Religious had a tohit/ecm bonus shrine, as well as the death shrine...Give the man a ceegar! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

The War Shrine gives a combat bonus from 5 to 15% to in system battles and the Events Predictor (temporal) gives 10 to 30 percent combat bonus to in system battles.

However, my mistake is still there, undiscovered�. Who will find it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Here�s the new up to date Attack/Defense bonus listing

=============================================

Factors which affect the probability of a hit:

ATTACK BONUSES:
Racial characteristic (aggressiveness)
..race creation points. 75% - 125% (Negative if below 100%)
..Berzerkers 10%
..Warriors 5%
..Politicians 2%
..Zealots 5%
..Engineers �5%
..Merchants -2%
..Renegades 2%
Combat Sensors
..lvl 1 25%
..lvl 2 45%
..lvl 3 65%
Weapon attack bonus
..PDC's 70%
..Ripper Beam 10%
..Wave-Motion Gun 30%
..High Energy Magifier 30% (crystalline)
..Tachyon Cannon 10% (temporal)
Cultral trait: space combat
Ship Experience level
..0 to 50%
....obtained by actual experience
....can be trained by Ship Training Facility (including temporal) to maximum of:
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
Fleet Experience level
..0 to 50%
....obtained by actual experience
....can be trained by Fleet Training Facility (including temporal) to maximum of:
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
Chassis bonus
..fighters 50%
Facilitities
..War Shrine (religious)
�.lvl 1 5% to in-system ships and units
�.lvl 2 10% to in-system ships and units
�.lvl 3 15% to in-system ships and units
..Events Predictor (temporal)
�.lvl 1 10% to in-system ships and units
�.lvl 2 20% to in-system ships and units
�.lvl 3 30% to in-system ships and units

DEFENCE BONUSES:
Racial characteristic (defensiveness)
..race creation points. 75% - 125% (Negative if below 100%)
..Berzerkers 10%
..Warriors 5%
..Politicians 2%
..Zealots 5%
..Engineers �5%
..Merchants -2%
..Renegades 2%
ECM
..lvl 1 20%
..lvl 2 40%
..lvl 3 60%
Ship Experience level
..0 to 50%
....obtained by actual experience
....can be trained by Ship Training Facility (including temporal) to maximum of:
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
Fleet Experience level
..0 to 50%
....obtained by actual experience
....can be trained by Fleet Training Facility (including temporal) to maximum of:
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
Scattering Armor
..lvl 1 5%
..lvl 2 10%
..lvl 3 15%
Stealth Armor
..lvl 1 5%
..lvl 2 10%
..lvl 3 15%
Chassis bonus
..drones 50%
..fighters, small 80%
..fighters, medium 70%
..fighters, large 60%
..escort 40%
..frigate 30%
..destroyer 20%
..light cruiser 10%
..baseship �40%
..space station �20%
..battle station �40%
..starbase �60%
Facilitities
..War Shrine (religious)
�.lvl 1 5% to in-system ships and units
�.lvl 2 10% to in-system ships and units
�.lvl 3 15% to in-system ships and units
..Events Predictor (temporal)
�.lvl 1 10% to in-system ships and units
�.lvl 2 20% to in-system ships and units
�.lvl 3 30% to in-system ships and units

SPECIAL CASE
Religious talisman sets the probability of a hit at 100% (cannot be modified by the attack/defense bonuses or changed by the 1% reduction rule to 99%)
================================================

DAMAGE BONUS
..Death Shrine 1 (Religious) 5% damage bonus to all weapons used in system

..Death Shrine 2 (Religious) 10% damage bonus to all weapons used in system
..Death Shrine 3 (Religious) 15% damage bonus to all weapons used in system

Suicide Junkie

November 17th, 2002, 02:34 AM

However, my mistake is still there, undiscovered…. Who will find it.You discovered it, you fix it. No sense duplicating work http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Especially when we've got a game like SE4 installed http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ November 16, 2002, 12:36: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

tbontob

November 17th, 2002, 02:58 AM

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />However, my mistake is still there, undiscovered…. Who will find it.You discovered it, you fix it. No sense duplicating work http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Especially when we've got a game like SE4 installed http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif <hr /></blockquote>SJ...I will fix it if it continues to stump the experts. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

It could be anything...a percentage error, missed tech, etc. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Here�s the new up to date Attack/Defense bonus listing, corrected for some spelling mistakes and to make the racial characteristic bonus a bit clearer.

=============================================

Factors which affect the probability of a hit:

ATTACK BONUSES:
Racial characteristic (aggressiveness)
..race creation points assigned �25% to 25%
..Berzerkers 10%
..Warriors 5%
..Politicians 2%
..Zealots 5%
..Engineers �5%
..Merchants -2%
..Renegades 2%
Combat Sensors
..lvl 1 25%
..lvl 2 45%
..lvl 3 65%
Weapon attack bonus
..PDC's 70%
..Ripper Beam 10%
..Wave-Motion Gun 30%
..High Energy Magifier 30% (crystalline)
..Tachyon Cannon 10% (temporal)
Cultral trait: space combat
Ship Experience level
..0 to 50%
....obtained by actual experience
....can be trained by Ship Training Facility (including temporal) to maximum of:
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
Fleet Experience level
..0 to 50%
....obtained by actual experience
....can be trained by Fleet Training Facility (including temporal) to maximum of:
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
Chassis bonus
..fighters 50%
Facilities
..War Shrine (religious)
�.lvl 1 5% to in-system ships and units
�.lvl 2 10% to in-system ships and units
�.lvl 3 15% to in-system ships and units
..Events Predictor (temporal)
�.lvl 1 10% to in-system ships and units
�.lvl 2 20% to in-system ships and units
�.lvl 3 30% to in-system ships and units

DEFENCE BONUSES:
Racial characteristic (defensiveness)
..race creation points assigned �25% to 25%
..Berzerkers 10%
..Warriors 5%
..Politicians 2%
..Zealots 5%
..Engineers �5%
..Merchants -2%
..Renegades 2%
ECM
..lvl 1 20%
..lvl 2 40%
..lvl 3 60%
Ship Experience level
..0 to 50%
....obtained by actual experience
....can be trained by Ship Training Facility (including temporal) to maximum of:
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
Fleet Experience level
..0 to 50%
....obtained by actual experience
....can be trained by Fleet Training Facility (including temporal) to maximum of:
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
Scattering Armor
..lvl 1 5%
..lvl 2 10%
..lvl 3 15%
Stealth Armor
..lvl 1 5%
..lvl 2 10%
..lvl 3 15%
Chassis bonus
..drones 50%
..fighters, small 80%
..fighters, medium 70%
..fighters, large 60%
..escort 40%
..frigate 30%
..destroyer 20%
..light cruiser 10%
..baseship �40%
..space station �20%
..battle station �40%
..starbase �60%
Facilities
..War Shrine (religious)
�.lvl 1 5% to in-system ships and units
�.lvl 2 10% to in-system ships and units
�.lvl 3 15% to in-system ships and units
..Events Predictor (temporal)
�.lvl 1 10% to in-system ships and units
�.lvl 2 20% to in-system ships and units
�.lvl 3 30% to in-system ships and units

SPECIAL CASE
Religious talisman sets the probability of a hit at 100% (cannot be modified by the attack/defense bonuses or changed by the 1% reduction rule to 99%)
================================================
DAMAGE BONUS
..Death Shrine 1 (Religious) 5% damage bonus to all weapons used in system

..Death Shrine 2 (Religious) 10% damage bonus to all weapons used in system
..Death Shrine 3 (Religious) 15% damage bonus to all weapons used in system

tbontob

November 17th, 2002, 03:16 AM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Mines are not weapons.Not weapons? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Tell that to 2 destroyers and an escort that just met their demise in a game I'm playing.

Or am I missing something here. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

tbontob

November 17th, 2002, 03:20 AM

Originally posted by Kamog:
Hmm, an error is supposed to be in the list? I like puzzles...
How about:

Ripper beams don't get a 10% bonus. Incinerator beams do.
You didn't include the hit percentage dropping with distance.Kamog. Quite right. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Sigh, I must have been having a bad day.

Thanks for catching it.

But sorry, it's not the "puzzle" error. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

EDIT: Does anyone know the "percentage dropping with distance"?

[ November 17, 2002, 01:21: Message edited by: tbontob ]

tbontob

November 17th, 2002, 03:23 AM

Originally posted by Kamog:
Weapon attack bonus
Mental singularity generator 20%Hi again Kamog http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Unfortunately, I do not know the point you are making. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Could you explain it more?

tbontob

November 17th, 2002, 03:33 AM

Originally posted by TerranC:
I think I got the error:

The space between death shrines.

Edit: Also, I thought the British spelling (also canadian) was Armour?

and HE Magnifier is spelled magifire.

Another Edit: I thought drones also had bonus offensive?Hi TerranC http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Sorry to disappoint you. But keep on lookin. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

To deal with your questions... correct me if I am wrong.
1) I believe Death Shrines is 2 words.
2) Yes, I believe the British and Canadian spelling is "Armour" I am Canadian, so I may use "Armor" and "Armour" interchangeably. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
3)"HE Magnifier is spelled magifire", I don't believe is correct. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Does anyone know for sure that the drone does or does not have a bonus offensive?

tbontob

November 17th, 2002, 04:02 AM

Is it time for a hint? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Hint #1 Someone has indirectly touched on the "error".

I know the hint is somewhat obtuse, but it is designed to be. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif So please do not ask for clarification. It may not be obvious now, but when you "see" the error, you will understand why I phrased it in this particular way.

If no one solves it, hint #2 will be on its way. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Good hunting

[ November 17, 2002, 02:16: Message edited by: tbontob ]

tbontob

November 17th, 2002, 04:25 AM

Originally posted by tbontob:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Kamog:
Hmm, an error is supposed to be in the list? I like puzzles...
How about:

Ripper beams don't get a 10% bonus. Incinerator beams do.
You didn't include the hit percentage dropping with distance.Kamog. Quite right. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Sigh, I must have been having a bad day.

Thanks for catching it.

But sorry, it's not the "puzzle" error. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

EDIT: Does anyone know the "percentage dropping with distance"?<hr /></blockquote>Oops, this is probably the 10% drop per sector. Y/N?

TerranC

November 17th, 2002, 04:27 AM

No... you read my explanation all wrong.

The High Energy Magnifier is spelled Magifire on your list.

Also, there is an empty line; a space, between the death shrine entrys.

Fyron

November 17th, 2002, 04:34 AM

Originally posted by tbontob:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Mines are not weapons.Not weapons? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Tell that to 2 destroyers and an escort that just met their demise in a game I'm playing.

Or am I missing something here. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <hr /></blockquote>They are not weapons because weapons are useable in combat. Mines only affect ships out of combat. So, they are not weapons. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

tbontob

November 17th, 2002, 04:35 AM

Originally posted by TerranC:
No... you read my explanation all wrong.

The High Energy Magnifier is spelled Magifire on your list.

Also, there is an empty line; a space, between the death shrine entrys.TerranC, you are correct. My apologies for the misinterpretation. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

As to the empty line, I had inadvertently entered a page break in my word processor. I guess this thread interprets the page break as a line.

Quikngruvn

November 17th, 2002, 04:50 AM

Stab in the dark... the first line should read:

Factors which affect the probability of a hit by a direct fire weapon

If that isn't it, I may have to wait for hint #2. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Quikngruvn

tbontob

November 17th, 2002, 04:52 AM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by tbontob:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Mines are not weapons.Not weapons? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Tell that to 2 destroyers and an escort that just met their demise in a game I'm playing.

Or am I missing something here. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <hr /></blockquote>They are not weapons because weapons are useable in combat. Mines only affect ships out of combat. So, they are not weapons. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <hr /></blockquote>Hmmmm

I am wondering if the difference is how we view weapons.

I view a weapon as anything that limits, damages or destroys an asset of the enemy.

Would it be correct to say that you view a weapon as something that limits, damages or destroys an asset of the enemy but also must be shown on a combat screen?

tbontob

November 17th, 2002, 04:59 AM

Originally posted by Quikngruvn:
Stab in the dark... the first line should read:

Factors which affect the probability of a hit by a direct fire weapon

If that isn't it, I may have to wait for hint #2. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

QuikngruvnQ, Maybe this is the point Fyron is trying to make. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Would it be correct to say that all the data we have listed only affects direct fire weapons?

But sorry, it is not the "error" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Fyron

November 17th, 2002, 05:00 AM

Your definition of a weapon would include intel projects as well. Those aren't "weapons." http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Fyron

November 17th, 2002, 05:02 AM

Originally posted by tbontob:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Quikngruvn:
Stab in the dark... the first line should read:

Factors which affect the probability of a hit by a direct fire weapon

If that isn't it, I may have to wait for hint #2. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

QuikngruvnQ, Maybe this is the point Fyron is trying to make. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Would it be correct to say that all the data we have listed only affects direct fire weapons?

But sorry, it is not the "error" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif <hr /></blockquote>Ah, but you see, a CSM or a Plasma Missile is a weapon. It is not affected by to hit chances. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

tbontob

November 17th, 2002, 05:35 AM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by tbontob:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Quikngruvn:
Stab in the dark... the first line should read:

Factors which affect the probability of a hit by a direct fire weapon

If that isn't it, I may have to wait for hint #2. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

QuikngruvnQ, Maybe this is the point Fyron is trying to make. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Would it be correct to say that all the data we have listed only affects direct fire weapons?

But sorry, it is not the "error" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif <hr /></blockquote>Ah, but you see, a CSM or a Plasma Missile is a weapon. It is not affected by to hit chances. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif <hr /></blockquote>Yes and the talisman is also not affected by to hit chances.

Which is why I think we should include mines, CSM and Plasma Missiles in the "Special" section. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ November 17, 2002, 03:35: Message edited by: tbontob ]

tbontob

November 17th, 2002, 05:39 AM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Your definition of a weapon would include intel projects as well. Those aren't "weapons." http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Actually, they are. We could just include the Intel Projects as a Category (ie not list them all) in the special section as being unaffected by the to hit bonuses.

Fyron

November 17th, 2002, 05:57 AM

No they aren't. Is a Force Concentrations Mission a weapon? Some of them use weapons, but they are not weapons themselves.

[ November 17, 2002, 04:04: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

tbontob

November 17th, 2002, 06:15 AM

Here is the new listing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I put the distance modifier under Defence Bonuses.

I have asked a number of questions which remain unanswered. Hopefully, someone can answer them.

=============================================

Factors which affect the probability of a hit by a direct fire weapon:

ATTACK BONUSES:
Racial characteristic (aggressiveness)
..race creation points assigned �25% to 25%
Cultural trait (amends aggressiveness)
..Berzerkers 10%
..Warriors 5%
..Politicians 2%
..Zealots 5%
..Engineers �5%
..Merchants -2%
..Renegades 2%
Combat Sensors
..lvl 1 25%
..lvl 2 45%
..lvl 3 65%
Weapon attack bonus
..PDC's 70%
..Incinerator Beam 10%
..Wave-Motion Gun 30%
..High Energy Magnifier 30% (crystalline)
..Tachyon Cannon 10% (temporal)
Cultral trait: space combat
Ship Experience level
..0 to 50%
....obtained by actual experience
....can be trained by Ship Training Facility (in sector) to maximum of:
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
�.can be trained by Psychic Ship Training Facility (in system) to a max of
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
Fleet Experience level
..0 to 50%
....obtained by actual experience
....can be trained by Fleet Training Facility (in sector) to maximum of:
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
�.can be trained by Psychic Fleet Training Facility (in system) to a max of
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
Chassis bonus
..fighters 50%
Facilities
..War Shrine (religious)
�.lvl 1 5% to in-system ships and units
�.lvl 2 10% to in-system ships and units
�.lvl 3 15% to in-system ships and units
..Events Predictor (temporal)
�.lvl 1 10% to in-system ships and units
�.lvl 2 20% to in-system ships and units
�.lvl 3 30% to in-system ships and units
Weapon Mount
..Large WP/Base Mount 40%
..Heavy WP/Base Mount 60%
..Massive WP/Base Mount 80%

DEFENCE BONUSES:
Racial characteristic (defensiveness)
..race creation points assigned �25% to 25%
Cultural trait (amends defensiveness)
..Berzerkers 10%
..Warriors 5%
..Politicians 2%
..Zealots 5%
..Engineers �5%
..Merchants -2%
..Renegades 2%
ECM
..lvl 1 20%
..lvl 2 40%
..lvl 3 60%
Ship Experience level
..0 to 50%
....obtained by actual experience
....can be trained by Ship Training Facility (in sector) to maximum of:
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
....can be trained by Psychic Ship Training Facility (in system) to max of:
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%

Fleet Experience level
..0 to 50%
....obtained by actual experience
....can be trained by Fleet Training Facility (in sector) to maximum of:
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
....can be trained by Psychic Fleet Training Facility (in system) to max of:
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
Scattering Armor
..lvl 1 5%
..lvl 2 10%
..lvl 3 15%
Stealth Armor
..lvl 1 5%
..lvl 2 10%
..lvl 3 15%
Chassis bonus
..drones 50%
..fighters, small 80%
..fighters, medium 70%
..fighters, large 60%
..escort 40%
..frigate 30%
..destroyer 20%
..light cruiser 10%
..baseship �40%
..space station �20%
..battle station �40%
..starbase �60%
Distance Modifier
..Sectors between direct fire weapon of attacker and target, 10% X sectors
Facilities
..War Shrine (religious)
�.lvl 1 5% to in-system ships and units
�.lvl 2 10% to in-system ships and units
�.lvl 3 15% to in-system ships and units
..Events Predictor (temporal)
�.lvl 1 10% to in-system ships and units
�.lvl 2 20% to in-system ships and units
�.lvl 3 30% to in-system ships and units

SPECIAL CASE (Weapons not affect by attack or defence bonuses)
..Religious talisman sets the probability of a hit at 100% (unchanged by any factor)
..Mines
..Missiles (Capital Ship and Plasma)
..Intel Projects

================================================
DAMAGE BONUS
..Death Shrine 1 (Religious) 5% damage bonus to all weapons used in system
..Death Shrine 2 (Religious) 10% damage bonus to all weapons used in system
..Death Shrine 3 (Religious) 15% damage bonus to all weapons used in system

tbontob

November 17th, 2002, 06:29 AM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
No they aren't. Is a Force Concentrations Mission a weapon? Some of them use weapons, but they are not weapons themselves.Hmmmm

The definition of the Force Concentrations Mission is "Stolen empire communications detail ship concentrations in various areas"

I think that comes under my definition of a weapon given previously as:

"I view a weapon as anything that limits, damages or destroys an asset of the enemy."

In this particular case, the asset is secrecy. Uncovering the "veil of secrecy" exposes the enemies secret concentrations and allows the empire to use that information to their advantage and the enemies disadvantage

Fyron

November 17th, 2002, 06:36 AM

Originally posted by tbontob:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
No they aren't. Is a Force Concentrations Mission a weapon? Some of them use weapons, but they are not weapons themselves.Hmmmm

The definition of the Force Concentrations Mission is "Stolen empire communications detail ship concentrations in various areas"

I think that comes under my definition of a weapon given previously as:

"I view a weapon as anything that limits, damages or destroys an asset of the enemy."

In this particular case, the asset is secrecy. Uncovering the "veil of secrecy" exposes the enemies secret concentrations and allows the empire to use that information to their advantage and the enemies disadvantage<hr /></blockquote>If it can include something non-damaging as a weapon, then that definition of a weapon is a little flawed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Main Entry: 1weap�on
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English wepen, from Old English w[AE]pen; akin to Old High German wAffan weapon, Old Norse vApn
Date: before 12th century
1 : something (as a club, knife, or gun) used to injure, defeat, or destroy

tbontob

November 17th, 2002, 06:48 AM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by tbontob:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
No they aren't. Is a Force Concentrations Mission a weapon? Some of them use weapons, but they are not weapons themselves.Hmmmm

The definition of the Force Concentrations Mission is "Stolen empire communications detail ship concentrations in various areas"

I think that comes under my definition of a weapon given previously as:

"I view a weapon as anything that limits, damages or destroys an asset of the enemy."

In this particular case, the asset is secrecy. Uncovering the "veil of secrecy" exposes the enemies secret concentrations and allows the empire to use that information to their advantage and the enemies disadvantage<hr /></blockquote>If it can include something non-damaging as a weapon, then that definition of a weapon is a little flawed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Main Entry: 1weap�on
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English wepen, from Old English w[AE]pen; akin to Old High German wAffan weapon, Old Norse vApn
Date: before 12th century
1 : something (as a club, knife, or gun) used to injure, defeat, or destroy<hr /></blockquote>Hmmm

It is obvious you have not given all the definitions. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

My Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary defines weapons as:

1) an instrument of offensive or defensive combat: something to fight with.
2) a means of contending with another.

Espionage qualifies under both definitions. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Fyron

November 17th, 2002, 12:16 PM

I got that definition from the Merriam Webster Online dictionary. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Quikngruvn

November 17th, 2002, 01:42 PM

Before this goes too far afield.... tbontob, your definition of 'weapon' is completely valid--'anything used to cause harm to another.' But the point you're missing is that your chart deals with weapons as defined by the game. That, I think, was Fyron's original point, and that talking about things the game does not consider to be weapons in this context is moot.

So, at least in the context of the chart, a weapon is 'a component that can do damage to another empire's ships, units, or colonies.'

A mine is not a weapon (it is a unit), but its warheads are weapons.
Intel projects are not weapons. They're, well, intel projects....
The Stellar Nucleonic Torpedo is not a weapon, though its effect is much more devastating than any weapon in the game....

Outside the context of the chart, all of the above are indeed weapons.

Can I have my hint now? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Quikngruvn

tbontob

November 17th, 2002, 05:16 PM

Originally posted by Quikngruvn:
Before this goes too far afield.... tbontob, your definition of 'weapon' is completely valid--'anything used to cause harm to another.' But the point you're missing is that your chart deals with weapons as defined by the game. That, I think, was Fyron's original point, and that talking about things the game does not consider to be weapons in this context is moot.

So, at least in the context of the chart, a weapon is 'a component that can do damage to another empire's ships, units, or colonies.'

A mine is not a weapon (it is a unit), but its warheads are weapons.
Intel projects are not weapons. They're, well, intel projects....
The Stellar Nucleonic Torpedo is not a weapon, though its effect is much more devastating than any weapon in the game....

Outside the context of the chart, all of the above are indeed weapons.

Can I have my hint now? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

QuikngruvnQuikngruvn http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I appreciate you comments, but want you to know I was well aware of Fyrons contention.

An unaddressed issue is that Newbies will be using the information as well as experts. Experts know the difference between SE4 defined weapons, Newbies do not.

Newbies would like to know that mines have a 100% chance to hit.

Newbies would like to know that drones have a 100% chance to hit.

Newbies would like to know that capital ship missiles have a 100% chance to hit.

So, I have preserved the weapons as �defined by the game� in the ATTACK and DEFENSE bonus section. I assume there is no issue with that.

The special section is just that�special. Experts would know this and understand that they may not be weapons as strictly defined by SE4. And with that understanding, they could be more tolerant of the needs of Newbies.

Newbies do not know the distinction between SE4 defined weapons and non-SE4 defined weapons. More importantly, in the early stages of their learning curve, they do not care whether it is a �weapon as defined by the game� or not. Later, they may care, but it is not on the top of their list of priorities when they are starting to learn the incredible intricacies of this game.

They require a starting point as to what �all the weapons� of SE4 can do. And they can learn about the �chance to hit� of all weapons by reading it in this thread.

tbontob

November 17th, 2002, 05:37 PM

Originally posted by Quikngruvn:

Can I have my hint now? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

QuikngruvnHmmmm

Hint #1 Someone has indirectly touched on the "error".
Hint #2 The player who "mechanically" applies the attack and defense factors may (or may not) calculate an incorrect hit probability.

Kamog

November 17th, 2002, 09:09 PM

Originally posted by tbontob:

Hint #2 The player who "mechanically" applies the attack and defense factors may (or may not) calculate an incorrect hit probability.OK, how about:

We should include the note that:
The % to hit can never go above 99% without the talisman
The % to hit can never go below 1%

So, after "mechanically" applying the attack and defense factors, we have to apply these range checks.

DirectorTsaarx

November 18th, 2002, 11:46 PM

Originally posted by Kamog:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by tbontob:

Hint #2 The player who "mechanically" applies the attack and defense factors may (or may not) calculate an incorrect hit probability.OK, how about:

We should include the note that:
The % to hit can never go above 99% without the talisman
The % to hit can never go below 1%

So, after "mechanically" applying the attack and defense factors, we have to apply these range checks.<hr /></blockquote>We also have to start from the same point; "to-hit" chances start at 100%. THEN the modifiers are applied...

Wardad

November 19th, 2002, 12:49 AM

Nice list.....
but what are the fighter ECM and Sensor bonuses?

Suicide Junkie

November 19th, 2002, 12:55 AM

They are abilities given directly to the fighter hull.

Next time you are selecting a ship size, hold your mouse over a fighter size hull, and look at the text box near the cancel button.
It will list all the ability descriptions associated with that hull.

Wardad

November 19th, 2002, 01:41 AM

no, not that bonus...
I meant with the fighter ECM and targeting componants.

tbontob

November 19th, 2002, 01:54 AM

Originally posted by Wardad:
Nice list.....
but what are the fighter ECM and Sensor bonuses?Thanks Wardad http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

You bring up a good point as

Small combat sensors are 10% 20% and 30%
Small ECM are 10%, 20% and 30%

tbontob

November 19th, 2002, 02:09 AM

Originally posted by Kamog:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by tbontob:

Hint #2 The player who "mechanically" applies the attack and defense factors may (or may not) calculate an incorrect hit probability.OK, how about:

We should include the note that:
The % to hit can never go above 99% without the talisman
The % to hit can never go below 1%

So, after "mechanically" applying the attack and defense factors, we have to apply these range checks.<hr /></blockquote>Sorry Kamog http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

But your question brings up a good issue in that I have to change the special section somewhat to make it more understandable to the readers. Originally, the 1% was in there and I thought my phrasing covered it, but obviously it did not.

Wardad

November 19th, 2002, 02:34 AM

Great, It is about time there is a completely detailed list on Attack and Defense bonuses.

One thing missing - Negative Planetary Defense, (which definitely affects Weapon platforms).

One thing I heard, but didn't quite understand - Default Attack 50%???
I guess it's a ship with no attack bonus vs a ship with no defense bonus, (tested at what - zero or 5 distance).

Suicide Junkie

November 19th, 2002, 02:42 AM

The base accuracy is 100%
Planetary defense modifier is -200%
Planetary attack modifier is +30%
Seeker defense modifier is +40% (missiles in flight, used when being shot at by PDCs)

[ November 19, 2002, 00:44: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

tbontob

November 19th, 2002, 07:43 AM

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
The base accuracy is 100%
Planetary defense modifier is -200%
Planetary attack modifier is +30%
Seeker defense modifier is +40% (missiles in flight, used when being shot at by PDCs)Wha.......?? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

SJ. Where did you get this? And what does each of those modifiers mean? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

tbontob

November 19th, 2002, 07:49 AM

Originally posted by Wardad:
Great, It is about time there is a completely detailed list on Attack and Defense bonuses.

One thing missing - Negative Planetary Defense, (which definitely affects Weapon platforms).

One thing I heard, but didn't quite understand - Default Attack 50%???
I guess it's a ship with no attack bonus vs a ship with no defense bonus, (tested at what - zero or 5 distance).I don't understand it either. Can anyone out there help Wardad and me to understand this? [EDIT: added question mark]

[ November 19, 2002, 05:51: Message edited by: tbontob ]

tbontob

November 19th, 2002, 08:02 AM

Nother hint. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Hint #1 Someone has indirectly touched on the "error".
Hint #2 The player who "mechanically" applies the attack and defense factors may (or may not) calculate an incorrect hit probability.
Hint #3 It is not a punctuation error, grammar error, spelling error or additional lines.

But if you find a punctuation error, grammar error, spelling error, please tell me! It will make for easier reading. (besides helping me to avoid appearing like a do-do for posterity. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

And help. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I am running out of hints which will not give away the store! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Kamog

November 19th, 2002, 08:04 AM

I think that they mean that before you add/subtract the attack and defense modifiers, you start off with a base chance of 100% to hit. Planets, being big, are easy to hit and therefore get a -200% defense modifier. I'm not sure about the others.

tbontob

November 19th, 2002, 08:21 AM

Previously in this thread, Quikngruvn spoke of the "Stellar Nucleonic Torpedo".

Does the Stellar Nucleonic Torpedo have a 100% chance to hit?

Fyron

November 19th, 2002, 08:25 AM

It doesn't "hit". It is "used" by the use component button in the strategic map.

Kamog

November 19th, 2002, 08:36 AM

OK, here's another guess for the answer to the "puzzle":

If you "mechanically" apply the attack and defense bonus modifiers, you may not calculate a correct hit probability because some abilities stack with each other, and others do not. For example, if you install an ECM1 (20%) and and ECM3 (60%) on the same ship, you will not get 20% + 60% = 80% bonus; rather, you will only get the 60%. Similarly, I believe that ECM and scattering armor do not stack, so if you install both scattering armor and ECM on the same ship, you will not get the combined bonus from the two components. I'm not sure if ship experience and fleet experience stack, but I have a suspicion that they do not.

[ November 19, 2002, 06:37: Message edited by: Kamog ]

Fyron

November 19th, 2002, 09:05 AM

Originally posted by Kamog:
Similarly, I believe that ECM and scattering armor do not stack, so if you install both scattering armor and ECM on the same ship, you will not get the combined bonus from the two components. I'm not sure if ship experience and fleet experience stack, but I have a suspicion that they do not.ECM, Stealth Armor and Scattering Armor all stack.
Ship and Fleet bonuses both stack.
And, they all stack with each other. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Kamog

November 19th, 2002, 09:14 AM

All right, I'm stumped... I'm out of ideas. This is a tough puzzle. I haven't given up yet, though. I'll look at the list one more time...

tbontob

November 19th, 2002, 12:03 PM

Two hints this time. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Hint #1 Someone has indirectly touched on the "error".
Hint #2 The player who "mechanically" applies the attack and defense factors may (or may not) calculate an incorrect hit probability.
Hint #3 It is not a punctuation error, grammar error, spelling error or additional lines.
Hint #4 Possibly too much focus has been placed on individual trees rather than the forest.
Hint #5 It is an error of d _ _ _ _ _ _ tion.

I will be adding a letter until someone comes up with the answer.

I must say, I never thought it would go on this long! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Fyron

November 19th, 2002, 12:04 PM

I was gonna say denotation, but that leaves an extra space...

d _ _ _ _ _ _ tion

d e n o t a _ tion

d e f i n i _ tion

d e t o n a _ tion

d e m o l i _ tion

I think tbontob added an extra underscore, or he is really evil. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif j/k http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Edit:

Wait...

d e f o l i a tion

That's it! That's the answer! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[ November 19, 2002, 10:08: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

tbontob

November 19th, 2002, 12:09 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
I was gonna say denotation, but that leaves an extra space...

d _ _ _ _ _ _ tion

d e n o t a _ tion

d e f i n i _ tion

d e t o n a _ tion

d e m o l i _ tion

I think tbontob added an extra underscore, or he is really evil. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif j/k http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif LOL & ROF http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Sorry, Fyron I made doubly sure it is the right number of letters.

I didn't want to be strung up on the nearest lamp post. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

tbontob

November 19th, 2002, 12:11 PM

Nope, not defoliation either! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

dumbluck

November 19th, 2002, 12:12 PM

Damn. I can't count.

[ November 19, 2002, 10:15: Message edited by: dumbluck ]

Fyron

November 19th, 2002, 12:17 PM

Destination.

Or....

Donkeyation! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ November 19, 2002, 10:29: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

dumbluck

November 19th, 2002, 12:37 PM

Desperation.
Declaration.
Disposition.
Description.

Of coarse, I have no Idea what error any of these word might be atatched to, but I kinda like word games...

[ November 19, 2002, 11:08: Message edited by: dumbluck ]

tbontob

November 19th, 2002, 04:48 PM

Originally posted by dumbluck:
Desperation.
Declaration.
Disposition.
Description.

Of coarse, I have no Idea what error any of these word might be atatched to, but I kinda like word games...LOL

It is a meaningful discription of the error. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Suicide Junkie

November 19th, 2002, 04:56 PM

Originally posted by tbontob:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
The base accuracy is 100%
Planetary defense modifier is -200%
Planetary attack modifier is +30%
Seeker defense modifier is +40% (missiles in flight, used when being shot at by PDCs)Wha.......?? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

SJ. Where did you get this? And what does each of those modifiers mean? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif <hr /></blockquote>#1) Start at 100% accuracy before any modifiers are added. So if the only effect were a 20% ECM I, you would hit with 80% accuracy.
#2) If you shoot at a planet, you add 200% to your accuracy. IE: it is [i]really[i] hard to miss a great big target like that, especially when gravity is helping you aim.
#3) If you shoot FROM a planet (IE: weapon platforms), then you add 30% to your chance of hitting. A planet, shooting at an alien-infested moon colony, would thus get a +230% accuracy bonus added onto the other modifiers.
#4) If you are shooting at a seeker (missile), then you suffer a 40% accuracy penalty. Point defense cannons get a 70% bonus to hit. So, ignoring other modifiers, That would give you a (100%[base] -40%[seeker] +70%[PDC] -40%[range4] = 90%) chance to hit at range 4.

PS: And I got them straight out of Settings.txt
(They are all moddable)

[ November 19, 2002, 14:57: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

Krsqk

November 19th, 2002, 05:30 PM

<blockquote>code:<hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">deamidation demarcation deuteration
deamination demarkation devaluation
debarkation dementation devastation
debarration demibastion dezincation
debellation denervation dialysation
debullition denigration dialyzation
decalvation denitration diffidation
decantation dentilation diffraction
decaudation denutrition dimidiation
decertation deoxidation dipartition
declamation departition diradiation
declaration deperdition discerption
declination deploration discreation
decollation deplumation discubation
decondition deportation disfunction
decurvation depravation disjunction
decussation deprecation dislocation
dedentition depredation dismutation
dedignation deprevation disparation
defalcation deprivation disparition
defiliation dereliction disposition
defloration dermutation disputation
defoedation description disrelation
defoliation desecration dissilition
deformation deselection dissipation
defrication desiccation dissolution
deglutition designation distinction
degradation desperation distraction
degustation despumation distriction
dehortation dessication divulgation
dehydration destination dockization
deification destitution dualization
delactation destruction duodenation
delassation desucration duplication
delectation deterration dysaptation
delineation detestation dysfunction</pre><hr /></blockquote>Not sure which one fits. Definition of "deuteration" available here (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=DEUTERATION) (or try the "Top ten sites for 'DEUTERATION'" (http://dictionary.directhit.com/dictionary/search.php?qry=DEUTERATION)).

[ November 19, 2002, 15:42: Message edited by: Krsqk ]

Wardad

November 19th, 2002, 06:42 PM

Hey now....
I also heard that racial and cultural bonuses apply only to SHIPS, and UNITS are not affected.

Which would mean you need a seperate list for ships. It would also make sense to have a list for each unit.
Since some units use standard componants (SATs, WP, Drones) and some (Fighters, Troops) have their own componants, and some (WP, Troops) are on planets and subject to bombardment, but one type can only attack a similar unit (troops).

Instead of trying to define WEAPON, use the expression DIRECT FIRE WEAPON (componant).

That should exclude Seekers, Stellar Manipulation, and INTEL. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif
But... I'm sure someone will nit pick it to death. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

tbontob

November 19th, 2002, 08:14 PM

Originally posted by Krsqk:
<blockquote>code:<hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">deamidation demarcation deuteration
deamination demarkation devaluation
debarkation dementation devastation
debarration demibastion dezincation
debellation denervation dialysation
debullition denigration dialyzation
decalvation denitration diffidation
decantation dentilation diffraction
decaudation denutrition dimidiation
decertation deoxidation dipartition
declamation departition diradiation
declaration deperdition discerption
declination deploration discreation
decollation deplumation discubation
decondition deportation disfunction
decurvation depravation disjunction
decussation deprecation dislocation
dedentition depredation dismutation
dedignation deprevation disparation
defalcation deprivation disparition
defiliation dereliction disposition
defloration dermutation disputation
defoedation description disrelation
defoliation desecration dissilition
deformation deselection dissipation
defrication desiccation dissolution
deglutition designation distinction
degradation desperation distraction
degustation despumation distriction
dehortation dessication divulgation
dehydration destination dockization
deification destitution dualization
delactation destruction duodenation
delassation desucration duplication
delectation deterration dysaptation
delineation detestation dysfunction</pre><hr /></blockquote>Not sure which one fits. Definition of "deuteration" available here (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=DEUTERATION) (or try the "Top ten sites for 'DEUTERATION'" (http://dictionary.directhit.com/dictionary/search.php?qry=DEUTERATION)).Boy you guys are smart! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Where did you get all those words? From a crossword puzzle site (ie a crossword dictionary)?

Don't have much time, so will have to make this short. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

It is one of those words. But which one?
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Gryphin

November 19th, 2002, 08:57 PM

Against the Religious Talisman
Stealth / Scattering Armor, ECM, and Experience: don’t help reduce hit probability.
As such, don’t use ECM or Stealth / Scattering Armor against that race. Try to keep your Experienced ships to use against other races..

Fyron

November 19th, 2002, 11:25 PM

Originally posted by tbontob:
Don't have much time, so will have to make this short. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

It is one of those words. But which one?
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Don't do that. That will encourage huge lengths of one word Posts.

Originally posted by Gryphin:
Against the Religious Talisman
Stealth / Scattering Armor, ECM, and Experience: don’t help reduce hit probability.
As such, don’t use ECM or Stealth / Scattering Armor against that race. Try to keep your Experienced ships to use against other races..You always want to use fully trained ships. In fact, all of your warships should be trained ASAP. The training will give you a 40% bonus to hit the enemy's ships. They will fall faster, and have less time to make use of the Talisman.

[ November 19, 2002, 21:28: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Krsqk

November 20th, 2002, 02:11 AM

I got it! I got it! It's an error of... ... ...... ........ .... ( http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ) duplication!!!!! Cultural traits are mentioned right underneath racial traits, where each culture affecting combat is listed. Later, near the bottom of the Attack modifiers, the "cultral" modifier Category Space Combat is listed. Quickngruvn indirectly touched on it on Nov. 16, 16:33 when he noticed that racial and cultural traits were combined. He fixed your typo in his correction (which came from the double entry), but didn't notice it was mentioned twice.

Quikngruvn

November 20th, 2002, 04:13 AM

Damn! I could have sworn it was 'dysfunction'! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif Kudos, Krsqk, 'cos if I were a betting man, I'd put money on your guess....

[kicks self for not getting it after hint #1 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif ]

[edit] Feh. I can't even get the emoticon working....

Quikngruvn

[ November 20, 2002, 02:14: Message edited by: Quikngruvn ]

Krsqk

November 20th, 2002, 05:08 AM

Well, I was torn between despumation and deoxidation. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Kamog

November 20th, 2002, 06:48 AM

I agree, looks like Krsqk got the answer! By the way, I'm really impressed with your list of words: how did you come up with all those 11-character words that start with 'd' and end with 'tion'? Did you manually look them up in a dictionary, or did you write a program to generate a list?

Krsqk

November 20th, 2002, 03:20 PM

Well, I started at http://directory.google.com/Top/Games/Puzzles/Crosswords/Dictionaries ...I don't remember which site I used, though. I don't waste my time hunting for words. (I use it trying to fill 59 systems with converted atmosphere, max conditions, max value planets, with no non-star systems, no asteroids, and sphereworlds on every star.) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ November 20, 2002, 13:22: Message edited by: Krsqk ]

tbontob

November 20th, 2002, 05:14 PM

Originally posted by Krsqk:
I got it! I got it! It's an error of... ... ...... ........ .... ( http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ) duplication!!!!! Cultural traits are mentioned right underneath racial traits, where each culture affecting combat is listed. Later, near the bottom of the Attack modifiers, the "cultral" modifier Category Space Combat is listed. Quickngruvn indirectly touched on it on Nov. 16, 16:33 when he noticed that racial and cultural traits were combined. He fixed your typo in his correction (which came from the double entry), but didn't notice it was mentioned twice.Krsqk..You got it!!!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Congratulations http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

tbontob

November 20th, 2002, 05:58 PM

Just a quick rundown on the hints

Hint #1 Someone has indirectly touched on the "error".
Hint #2 The player who "mechanically" applies the attack and defense factors may (or may not) calculate an incorrect hit probability.
Hint #3 It is not a punctuation error, grammar error, spelling error or additional lines.
Hint #4 Possibly too much focus has been placed on individual trees rather than the forest.
Hint #5 It is an error of d _ _ _ _ _ _ tion.

Krsqk is right in his analysis. But read right, the hints could have led a person to the answer very quickly.

Hint #1 talks of the error being "touched on".

But what data is "touched on" and what isn't?

If you interpreted it to mean anyone having anything to do with the data then it is really not a clue at all. All data would be "touched on". So what could it mean?

If you interpreted it to mean anyone having anything to do with data AFTER it was entered into the list, it then a very important clue.

How is this? Well, there is only one person who could have entered any data which was not touched on. Moi. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif There was no discussion, request for it to be entered etc... it was just entered by me.

More significantly, I entered about 75% to 80% of the data this way. The percentage drops with discussion of some of the data because it is then "touched on" but about two-thirds or three-quarters of the data was never directly or indirectly addressed in discussions before or after it was entered.

So, a person who made a print out of the data at the time the puzzle was presented, could have gotten a very short list of 10 to 15 items by eliminating the ones which were not "touched on".

Granted the phrase is vague but it was designed to be vague otherwise you guys would have come up with the answer right away. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif And there would not have been any fun. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Edit: and I was very open about it when I said this at the time I presented the first hint...
Quote:
-------------------------------------
I know the hint is somewhat obtuse, but it is designed to be. So please do not ask for clarification. It may not be obvious now, but when you "see" the error, you will understand why I phrased it in this particular way.]
-----------------------------------------

Hint #2 used the word "mechanically" very blatantly (quotes were used to bring attention to it!) and was actually a hint to try out an example. Any example would have worked unless the person just "mechanicaly" entered the figures without any thought at all. Ergo the point of "mechanically".

Of much lesser importance, a trait like Berzerker would lead to an error. a trait like scientists would not. Therefore the reference to "may (or may not) calculate an incorrect hit probability"

The hint also automatically excluded the data in the "special" section.

The rest of the hints are self explanetory.

Hope you guys had fun! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif I did!

[ November 20, 2002, 16:23: Message edited by: tbontob ]

tbontob

November 20th, 2002, 08:34 PM

Originally posted by Wardad:
Hey now....
I also heard that racial and cultural bonuses apply only to SHIPS, and UNITS are not affected.

Which would mean you need a seperate list for ships. It would also make sense to have a list for each unit.
Since some units use standard componants (SATs, WP, Drones) and some (Fighters, Troops) have their own componants, and some (WP, Troops) are on planets and subject to bombardment, but one type can only attack a similar unit (troops).

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

You guys are really going to have to help me with this. I know next to nothing about fighters, troops etc.

And Wardad does bring up a very good point. The list could be misleading in that we "assume" everything listed is applicable. But some may not...

Anybody have any ideas on a good format to take note of exceptions without making this list incredibly long and complicated?

Or is the best way to have a separate list for ships, planets, troops, fighters, etc. Groan...(tbontob holds his head in pain http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif )

tbontob

November 20th, 2002, 08:44 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Gryphin:
Against the Religious Talisman
Stealth / Scattering Armor, ECM, and Experience: don’t help reduce hit probability.
As such, don’t use ECM or Stealth / Scattering Armor against that race. Try to keep your Experienced ships to use against other races..You always want to use fully trained ships. In fact, all of your warships should be trained ASAP. The training will give you a 40% bonus to hit the enemy's ships. They will fall faster, and have less time to make use of the Talisman.<hr /></blockquote>I just want to confirm what I think has been said.

Would this be correct?
1)Pursue ship and fleet training etc until the "enemy" has the talisman.
2) Once the enemy has the talisman, use the fleet against other races.
3) Build new fleets (without training, ECM or stealth or scattering armor etc) for use against the race with the Talisman.

PvK

November 20th, 2002, 08:51 PM

Sort of, although if the talisman ships are good and trained, you may need to train your ships in order to have a good chance to hit them. But the ECM and special armors won't help against the talisman ships.

Missile, Boarding, Drone Carrier, and Ram ships may be useful against the Talisman fleet though, and those don't need training to hit with. Just don't send them in alone - used combined arms, with trained direct-fire ships behind them.

PvK

tbontob

November 20th, 2002, 09:25 PM

Here is the new listing.

I thought I�d try something new. Sometimes questions just fall through the holes in a discussion and are never answered. So, where there is uncertainty, I highlight the uncertainty with a ��===�, giving the name and date of the reference.

This way, we may be able to clear up issues that just get lost.

I haven�t fixed up the �special� section yet, so please bear with me on that.
===============================================

Factors which affect the probability of a hit by a direct fire weapon:

ATTACK BONUSES:
Base Bonus 100% (All calculations start at 100%)
Racial characteristic (aggressiveness)
..race creation points assigned �25% to 25%
Cultural trait (amends aggressiveness)
..Berzerkers 10%
..Warriors 5%
..Politicians 2%
..Zealots 5%
..Engineers �5%
..Merchants -2%
..Renegades 2%
Combat Sensors
..lvl 1 25%
..lvl 2 45%
..lvl 3 65%
Small Combat Sensors
..lvl 1 10%
..lvl 2 20%
..lvl 3 30%
Weapon attack bonus
..PDC's 70%
..Incinerator Beam 10%
..Wave-Motion Gun 30%
..High Energy Magnifier 30% (crystalline)
..Tachyon Cannon 10% (temporal)
Cultral trait: space combat
Ship Experience level
..0 to 50%
....obtained by actual experience
....can be trained by Ship Training Facility (in sector) to maximum of:
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
�.can be trained by Psychic Ship Training Facility (in system) to a max of
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
Fleet Experience level
..0 to 50%
....obtained by actual experience
....can be trained by Fleet Training Facility (in sector) to maximum of:
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
�.can be trained by Psychic Fleet Training Facility (in system) to a max of
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
Chassis bonus
..fighters 50%
Facilities
..War Shrine (religious)
�.lvl 1 5% to in-system ships and units
�.lvl 2 10% to in-system ships and units
�.lvl 3 15% to in-system ships and units
..Events Predictor (temporal)
�.lvl 1 10% to in-system ships and units
�.lvl 2 20% to in-system ships and units
�.lvl 3 30% to in-system ships and units
Weapon Mount
..Base Planetary Attack Modifier 30% �===(SUICIDE JUNKIE) IF I UNDERSTAND SJ, A SMALL WP WOULD BE 30%, A LARGE WP WOULD BE 70% (40+30), A HEAVY WP WOULD BE 90% (30 +60), ETC.
..Large WP/Base Mount 40%
..Heavy WP/Base Mount 60%
..Massive WP/Base Mount 80%
Default Attack Bonus 50%? �=== (WARDAD�s QUESTION, NOV 19, WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?)

DEFENCE BONUSES:
Racial characteristic (defensiveness)
..race creation points assigned �25% to 25%
Cultural trait (amends defensiveness)
..Berzerkers 10%
..Warriors 5%
..Politicians 2%
..Zealots 5%
..Engineers �5%
..Merchants -2%
..Renegades 2%
ECM
..lvl 1 20%
..lvl 2 40%
..lvl 3 60%
Small ECM
..lvl 1 10%
..lvl 2 20%
..lvl 3 30%
Ship Experience level
..0 to 50%
....obtained by actual experience
....can be trained by Ship Training Facility (in sector) to maximum of:
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
....can be trained by Psychic Ship Training Facility (in system) to max of:
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
Fleet Experience level
..0 to 50%
....obtained by actual experience
....can be trained by Fleet Training Facility (in sector) to maximum of:
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
....can be trained by Psychic Fleet Training Facility (in system) to max of:
......lvl 1 10%
......lvl 2 15%
......lvl 3 20%
Scattering Armor
..lvl 1 5%
..lvl 2 10%
..lvl 3 15%
Stealth Armor
..lvl 1 5%
..lvl 2 10%
..lvl 3 15%
Chassis bonus
..drones 50%
..fighters, small 80%
..fighters, medium 70%
..fighters, large 60%
..escort 40%
..frigate 30%
..destroyer 20%
..light cruiser 10%
..baseship �40%
..space station �20%
..battle station �40%
..starbase �60%
Distance Modifier
..Sectors between direct fire weapon of attacker and target, 10% X sectors
Facilities
Missile defence modifer vs PDC�s 40
..War Shrine (religious)
�.lvl 1 5% to in-system ships and units
�.lvl 2 10% to in-system ships and units
�.lvl 3 15% to in-system ships and units
..Events Predictor (temporal)
�.lvl 1 10% to in-system ships and units
�.lvl 2 20% to in-system ships and units
�.lvl 3 30% to in-system ships and units

SPECIAL CASE (Weapons not affect by attack or defence bonuses)
..Religious talisman sets the probability of a hit at 100% (unchanged by any factor)
..Mines 100%
..Missiles (Capital Ship and Plasma) 100%
..Drones 100%
..Stellar Nucleonic Torpedo 100% �===
..Intel Projects �===

================================================
DAMAGE BONUS
..Death Shrine 1 (Religious) 5% damage bonus to all weapons used in system
..Death Shrine 2 (Religious) 10% damage bonus to all weapons used in system
..Death Shrine 3 (Religious) 15% damage bonus to all weapons used in system

tbontob

November 20th, 2002, 09:30 PM

Originally posted by PvK:
Sort of, although if the talisman ships are good and trained, you may need to train your ships in order to have a good chance to hit them. But the ECM and special armors won't help against the talisman ships.

Missile, Boarding, Drone Carrier, and Ram ships may be useful against the Talisman fleet though, and those don't need training to hit with. Just don't send them in alone - used combined arms, with trained direct-fire ships behind them.

PvKQuite right.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

We need ship and fleet training in order to increase our chances of hitting enemy ships. We don't need it to decrease our chances of being hit, since the Talisman rigidly fixes the chance of our being hit at 100%

tbontob

November 20th, 2002, 09:50 PM

Originally posted by tbontob:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Wardad:
Hey now....
I also heard that racial and cultural bonuses apply only to SHIPS, and UNITS are not affected.

Which would mean you need a seperate list for ships. It would also make sense to have a list for each unit.
Since some units use standard componants (SATs, WP, Drones) and some (Fighters, Troops) have their own componants, and some (WP, Troops) are on planets and subject to bombardment, but one type can only attack a similar unit (troops).

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

You guys are really going to have to help me with this. I know next to nothing about fighters, troops etc.

And Wardad does bring up a very good point. The list could be misleading in that we "assume" everything listed is applicable. But some may not...

Anybody have any ideas on a good format to take note of exceptions without making this list incredibly long and complicated?

Or is the best way to have a separate list for ships, planets, troops, fighters, etc. Groan...(tbontob holds his head in pain http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif )<hr /></blockquote>I have an idea.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

After each entry we could put something like [P,T] or [P,S,F]. The former would mean it would apply to planets and troops, that latter to planets, ships and fighters.

What other categories would we need? Weapons? (PDC's vs missiles)

Fyron

November 21st, 2002, 01:08 AM

Originally posted by tbontob:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Gryphin:
Against the Religious Talisman
Stealth / Scattering Armor, ECM, and Experience: don’t help reduce hit probability.
As such, don’t use ECM or Stealth / Scattering Armor against that race. Try to keep your Experienced ships to use against other races..You always want to use fully trained ships. In fact, all of your warships should be trained ASAP. The training will give you a 40% bonus to hit the enemy's ships. They will fall faster, and have less time to make use of the Talisman.<hr /></blockquote>I just want to confirm what I think has been said.

Would this be correct?
1)Pursue ship and fleet training etc until the "enemy" has the talisman.
2) Once the enemy has the talisman, use the fleet against other races.
3) Build new fleets (without training, ECM or stealth or scattering armor etc) for use against the race with the Talisman.<hr /></blockquote>No. Train all ships to the max unless you need them for an emergency immediately. You still want the 40% attack bonus from the training to hit the Talisman ships. They will likely have all the defensive bonuses, so you want as many offensive bonuses as you can get.

Krsqk

November 21st, 2002, 03:03 PM

The rationale is that it takes only seven turns to fully train your ships, and that extra 40% to hit makes a big difference.
<blockquote>code:<hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;"> You Enemy
ECM n/a 60%
Stealth Armor n/a 15%
Scattering Armor n/a 15%
Combat Sensor 65% n/a
----------------------------------------
+65% -90% = -25%</pre><hr /></blockquote>At point blank range, you have a 75% chance to hit. At range 6 (Meson BLaster max), you have 25% to hit. At range 8 (APB max), you have 5% to hit. Fully trained ships add 40% to hit, which makes a big difference. Even four turns of training makes up for all but 1% of the defensive advantage he has. As it is, you've obviously had success with the strategy you've adopted, which goes to show there's more than one way to skin a cat. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Gryphin

November 22nd, 2002, 02:39 AM

My reason for not using trained ships against Talisman ships is because you will most likely loose them. This could be because I'm using the wrong strategys.
Currently against one of the TDM AI which places them on BCs and BBs I use the following:
Combat Sensors and Max Speed on All ships
Target Ships - BC's with 3 Direct Fire Reload 1 weapons, and the rest Armor III Set to Point Blank.
PDC Ships - LCs with 1 Direct Fire Reload 1, 4 Armor III, and the rest PDC Set to Short Weapons Range
Offensive Ships - BCs with 4 Armor III, As many Direct Fire Large Mount Reload 1 weapons as I can Strategy set to Maximum Range.
Basicaly I expect to loose ships. My hope is the Target ships wiil get asorb more damage while the PDC remove Fighers, and the Offensive ships remove the AIs ships.
So far it is not pefect but if I have a 1/3 numerical advantage it seem to be paying off.
In this senario I feel I'm going to loose the ships anyway so why use the Experianced ships?
Since it is agains the AI I'm not using Training Facilties.
I have not tried the wave of RAM ships, Maybe I will do that for the home system which is my next objective.

[ November 21, 2002, 12:40: Message edited by: Gryphin ]

Gryphin

November 23rd, 2002, 02:47 AM

Reading through here and watching Combat Replays more closly I have re designed my "Target" and PDC ships. I have Changed the strategy of my "Gun Ships"
Target Shhips now Carry 2 of the heavyiest Reload 1 Guns I can put on them.
PDC Ships, (I like to call Aegis) Carry the same but no armor.
Gun Ships are now out fitted with 2 Reload 2, 1 Multi Track Lve 2, 4 Armor, Rest is filled with heavyest Reload 1 I have.
All ships have Max Speed and Combat Sensors.
I had forgotton to change the Strategy on one Version of a Gun Ship. I noticed in a battle where I had
104 combat ships and the AI had
21 Combat ships
The Target, (Point Bland), and Aegis, (Short Range), ships made major effort to move forward somtimes acidentaly formaing a line that blocked the AI. Ships with "Optimal" Also moved forward. The Optimal did the most damage. In that battle I lost 4 Target Ships, 2 Aegis Ships, and 2 Optimal Strategy Gun Ships

BTYW: Name of AI is withheld so as to not ruin the surprise of anyone who has not had the pleasure / pain of running into them.
Talisman + Organic Armor = You are going to loose a lot of ships. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif