game styles

[Taera]

Hey people, been reading lately, and thought it might be interesting to see the different "exotic" play styles that people have. For example uin A Newbie Has A Question Pax mentioned one interesting development style - rush for astrophysics and solar panels and sails, never building any ressuply depots. i could add that Adv. Power Conservation would be great to that. Anyone else with interesting play styles?

[pathfinder]

Mine in "regular" SEIV is to haul hiney to get quantum reactors and atmosphere conVersion http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Taera]

i just recalled, i've been playing for a while researching PN early on and putting them on all my ships, adding rad bombs sometimes...

[PvK]

Originally posted by pathfinder:
Mine in "regular" SEIV is to haul hiney to get quantum reactors and atmosphere conVersion http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I try to develop a different style almost every time I play, although I have never raced to develop either quantum reactors or atmosphere conVersion. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

PvK

[Suicide Junkie]

I prefer to snatch Stellar manip 1 for the monoliths very early, which keeps me overflowing with resources. I then do some quick military strength building with some quick DUC and shields research.
In a mod where it is useful, I prefer armor.

[Desdinova]

i select the organic racial trait and make a priority of researching organic technology for the organic armor and organic weapons. i have noticed that the organic weapons are better than the initial weapons the ai uses (better range and damage.) the advantage from the organic armor and weapons is enough to let me lag behind on ship size. i can remain 1-2 sizes smaller and still win in combat initially. after that i try to get the monolith.

when i encounter other races i will trade system maps for the other 2 colonization techs. this way i dont give the other races any additional planets to colonize.

i usually play xenophobe or renegade culture and bloodthirsty or neutral happiness. i also knockdown political savvy as low as possible and use the points to increase other areas or buy religious or crystallurgy ability.

[Ruatha]

Originally posted by Taera:
Hey people, been reading lately, and thought it might be interesting to see the different "exotic" play styles that people have. For example uin A Newbie Has A Question Pax mentioned one interesting development style - rush for astrophysics and solar panels and sails, never building any ressuply depots. i could add that Adv. Power Conservation would be great to that. Anyone else with interesting play styles?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I do that too and never need advanced power conservation trait.
Two solar sails 2 gets most early game ships wherever they need to go.
Supplies has never been a shortage for me.
I my first game some ships got stranded becourse of supply shortage, before I choose this strategy.

[Ruatha]

Hey http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif , I read that thread and Pax didn't suggest that.
That's my all own strategy i made up myself http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif , don't go giving someone else credit for the obviusly excellent and all winning shining and dancing splendid "Ruathian strategy" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[ November 26, 2002, 07:55: Message edited by: Ruatha ]

[Pax]

Originally posted by Ruatha:
Hey http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif , I read that thread and Pax didn't suggest that.
That's my all own strategy i made up myself http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif , don't go giving someone else credit for the obviusly excellent and all winning shining and dancing splendid "Ruathian strategy" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">True enough. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I, too, like solar panels, and tend to pick them up along the way ... but they aren't critical to me until the second game-year, really. I'm not going to put a solar panel on a colony ship (the spare 20kT of room gets a cargo bay instead), so it's nt that important to get infinite range on my explorers. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Desdinova]

which thread is going to be used. Game Styles or Newbie has Questions. its a little confusing reading from one then jumping to the other about the same thing.

[Ruatha]

Originally posted by desdinova:
which thread is going to be used. Game Styles or Newbie has Questions. its a little confusing reading from one then jumping to the other about the same thing.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Why do things easy when you can make them so beatifully complicated?

I don't put solar panels on the colony ships either but go for long range explorers so I can make more trade and research alliances.

As Game style I try to play role-playing, usually very strict obiding by my treaties.
If I dislike my allies and like my enemies that doesn't change the treaties, then I'll kill those I like and give all my tech to those I dislike.

[capnq]

I'm another roleplayer. If I'm playing a trusting, pacifistic race, I don't do any weapons research or arm any ships until I find evidence of hostile aliens' existence.

An aggressive, paranoid race will arm almost anything that a weapon will fit on, and start researching Applied Intelligence at First Contact.

[ November 26, 2002, 19:15: Message edited by: capnq ]

[mottlee]

My Sig says it all http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Fyron]

Originally posted by desdinova:
[QB]i select the organic racial trait and make a priority of researching organic technology for the organic armor and organic weapons. i have noticed that the organic weapons are better than the initial weapons the ai uses (better range and damage.) the advantage from the organic armor and weapons is enough to let me lag behind on ship size. i can remain 1-2 sizes smaller and still win in combat initially. after that i try to get the monolith.[QB]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, DUC Vs are cheaper than Organic Weapons, and stronger than most levels of them.

Depleted Uranium Cannon V (Projectile Weapons 5)
Tonnage Space Taken := 30
Weapon Damage At Rng := 40 40 40 40 40 0

Hyper - Plasma Bolt III (Organic Weapons 6)
Tonnage Space Taken := 30
Weapon Damage At Rng := 40 35 30 30 30 25 0

Hyper - Plasma Bolt III (Organic Weapons 8)
Tonnage Space Taken := 30
Weapon Damage At Rng := 45 40 35 35 35 30 25 0

Lightning Ray I (Organic Weapons 4)
Tonnage Space Taken := 20
Weapon Damage At Rng := 30 30 20 20 10 10 0

Lightning Ray I (Organic Weapons 6)
Tonnage Space Taken := 20
Weapon Damage At Rng := 40 40 30 30 20 20 10 10 0

Phased - Polaron Beam V (Phased Energy Weapons 5)
Tonnage Space Taken := 30
Weapon Damage At Rng := 60 55 55 55 50 50 0

Organic Weapons costs a lot more to research than Projectile Weapons and Phased Energy Weapons (even with Physics 2 as a tech req).

Plasma Charges are almost never better than DUCs, except with a little more range, but much less damage. Electric Discharges (for much more research) are stronger at short range, but much weaker at longer ranges. Then when you through in the PPBs, which cost fewer research points than Organic Weapons 5 or so, the Organic weapons can't even compare to them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Personally, I never research Organic Weapons past level 3, for the Troop EDs. Sure they cost organics instead of Minerals, and that lowers build time of the ship by a turn. But they are much weaker in combat. To me, this isn't worth.

[Krsqk]

I think the other "advantage" to organics weapons is that you get several different kinds of weapons quickly; low damage reload 1's; higher damage reload 2's; and seekers that do more dmg/kt/turn than CSMs--all for 1 tech area which is cheaper than, say, PPB+torps+missiles. Which only would be an advantage in very early game, due to the power of PDC. Now, give EDs 2x to shields, and they might be a little more appealing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[spoon]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
[QUOTE] Sure they cost organics instead of Minerals, and that lowers build time of the ship by a turn. But they are much weaker in combat. To me, this isn't worth.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If it lowers the Build Time from 2 turns to 1, I'd have to disagree with you there... Even 3 turns to 2 would be worthwhile.
And really, if you are spending more than 2 turns to build any Organic ship, you probably shouldn't have taken Organic Tech to begin with...

-Spoon

[PvK]

The organic resource thing is a huge advantage (not just for reduced build time, although that is a big advantage), as are the multiple weapons in one tech area. The acid weapons have the advantage of being able to nail units (which most torpedoes can't), and the parasite reload rate of 2 can keep them effective even in late-game, particularly when used in combined arms deployments with fighters and drones and direct-fire warships.

It's true that other weapons achieve better damage per weapon. So, organic is not the one uber trait, but their weapons are definitely a valid and effective choice.

PvK

[Fyron]

Those multiple weapons come at a ridiculously high research cost. Acid weapons (like torpedoes) have too small of a damage ratio to really be useful. You can max out DUCs before getting 2 levels in Organic Weapons (except maybe on high tech cost). As I showed earlier, it take a lot of levels of Organic Weapons to get them to be as strong as DUCs. But by the time you have spent that much research, you could have maxed out PPBs (as well as researching plenty of other stuff). PPBs are stronger than all organic weapons. They only suffer from the slightly lower range at the highest levels of Organic Weapons (which cost a ludicrous amount of research).

The different kinds of weapons quickly doesn't matter too much, really, because most of them are useless compared to the other Organic weapons. Researching many levels in Missiles is generally a bad idea, as PDCs easily overwhelm missiles. So, the fact that you get beams and parasites from 1 tech area doesn't really give too much benefit.

Spoon, I assume that you are implying the use of retro-series builds there, and discounting BSYs. DUC and PPB ships can be retro-series built just as easily as Organic ships can. Sure you can build them faster, but pound-for-pound, they do not match up to normal ships in combat.

Its nice arguing against multiple people at once. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Spoon, I assume that you are implying the use of retro-series builds there, and discounting BSYs. DUC and PPB ships can be retro-series built just as easily as Organic ships can. Sure you can build them faster, but pound-for-pound, they do not match up to normal ships in combat.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Handeled correctly, an organic race can build ships roughly twice as fast as an otherwise identical non-organic race without doing any sort of retrofit series stuff. And you can support more in maintenance. Yes it may be true that you lost 3 ships for every 2 the other guy loses, but when you can build 2 or 3 for every one he can, it's very easy to overwhelm them.

It doesn't matter how many ships each of you loses, it only matters who runs out first. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

That being said, the organic race alone is definetly not an uber-race.

Geoschmo

[Fyron]

And just how would you handle building ships twice as quickly, while still maintaining all those vital components that cost only minerals?

[Krsqk]

Silly rabbit. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif If build times are faster, it's because the design costs fewer minerals. If costs are more evenly spread across min/org/rad, then maintenance will be more evenly spread out as well.

[Fyron]

Wow, you mean lower costs give shorter build times? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

That does not answer the question of how you get half the build time while still maintaining the essentials on the ship.

[Krsqk]

Do you mean maintain as in ship maintenance, or maintain as in continue to meet some standard of performance? I ***_u_me that you mean paying for bridge/ls/qc when you say vital components. I'm saying that since the rest of the ship costs less in minerals, one can afford to pay for more b/ls/qc comps. Are we yanking on different ropes here?

[Fyron]

I mean by still keeping all the costs from the essential components on the ship (includes ECM, CS, PDC, Solar Sail, Engines, Stealth Armor (and Scattering for larger ships), etc. in addition to B/LS/CQ). I didn't mean anything about per turn maintenance.

[Phoenix-D]

Running a quick full-tech test..
A standard, APB armed Battleship:
B/2LS/2CQ 5 Quantum Engines 3 Phased V
CS/ECM III Scattering/Stealth Solar Sail 6 APB XII
Costs: 16450/200/2240
5 turn build time

Standard Organic Battleship:
Same except 5 OA/7 Lightning Ray/1 Parsite
Costs: 9300/7150/800
3 turn build time

EDIT: playing around in the simulator says it can go either way; pitted 3 of the first against 5 of the second.

Phoenix-D

[ November 27, 2002, 04:36: Message edited by: Phoenix-D ]

[Desdinova]

Imperator Fyron

At the INITIAL stages of the game the benefits from organic tech outway the disadvantages.

The Organic Armor alone will allow me to withstand more punishment than a regular race can, it starts off with 100kt of damage plus it regenerates.
AT level 1-2 i will admit that the DUC does more damage than the organic weapons but the range advantage goes to the Organic Weapons. What good is doing more damage if you cannot get into firing range. again i am talking EARLY stages of game.
Parasite Vs. Cap Ship Missile. again at level 1-2 advantage goes to the Organic. the range is the same and so is the damage, however the reload time goes to the Parasite. once Point Defense Weapons are researched the missiles almost become a useless weapon except in massive swarms.

this is based on ship sizes of Escort, Frigate and Destroyer as those are the EARLY game ships.

i agree that the research cost is expensive but i think it is worth it. In order of preference i am trying to get the Organic Armor, Seeker, Electric Discharge (for the range advantage) then plasma bolt.

edit. corrected statement about range and damage btwn Parasite and Cap Ship Missile and added reload time.

[ November 27, 2002, 04:52: Message edited by: desdinova ]

[Krsqk]

Several tests here. Started with a BB hull, B/2LS/2QC, 3 Phased Shield V, Mx 5, CS III, ECM III, 3 PDC V, Solar Sail III, Stealth Armor, Scattering Armor. Cost: 11500/200/800

5 different standard weapons tested.

1: 6 heavy PPB V, 1 PPB = +6500/0/3900
2: 6 heavy APB XII, 1 APB XII = +5200/0/1560
3: 9 heavy MB VI, 1 large MB VI = +5850/0/2340
4: 4 heavy QT V, 1 large QT V = +4750/0/950
5: 2 heavy WMG III, 1 large WMG III = +4500/0/2200

All were 5-turn build times.

1 organic weapon tested.
1: 6 heavy HPB V, 1 HPB V = +0/7200/0

3-turn build time.

Organic races can outbuild standard races by 60%, then. Maintenance advantage varied from 38 to 56%. With 3 standard ships to 5 organic ships, the outcome will be a toss-up. With 30 standard ships to 50 organic ships, it's no contest. If the organic race makes first kill, it's even worse. My results frequently had over 35 functional ships remaining for the organic race. Superior numbers seem to be almost as conclusive an advantage as superior accuracy, at least at max tech.

[Fyron]

Don't forget that Ionic Dispersers will disable any organic armored ship that has no extra supply pods or a quantum reactor. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Desidnova:
Actually, the organic weapons don't get a range advantage until higher levels. I never said organic armor wasn't useful. It is, until the enemy gets Ionic Dispersers. Then, 1-2 shots from an ID disables all the engines of an armored ship.

P-D:
You can have a lot more ships than me. That is fine. Since yours don't have Quantum Reactors, my ships with Heavy IDs do 120 engine damage per shot. This totally disables one of your ships in one shot. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

One more thing... a Resource Converter eliminates most single resource deficit problems in a heart beat. You cannot really support that many more organic ships than normal ships with high tech start. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ November 27, 2002, 07:52: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Ruatha]

I read a post from someone (don't remember who though, sorry) that used to make ramming organic ships.
I tried that.
Putting only crew etc + engines and then only organic armor on the ship, giving it Kamikaze strategy.
It's a killer, a small rammer takes out two regular small ships and comes away unharmed!
A battleship or battlecruiser is almost unstoppable except for ID.
I'll try to use this strategy in a game sometime.

[Fyron]

Stick on a shield generator or two to stop boarding parties and IDs. You want to at least have an ECM for defense, to make it harder for the ship to be hit by the enemy.

[oleg]

Originally posted by Krsqk:
Several tests here. Started with a BB hull, B/2LS/2QC, 3 Phased Shield V, Mx 5, CS III, ECM III, 3 PDC V, Solar Sail III, Stealth Armor, Scattering Armor. Cost: 11500/200/800

5 different standard weapons tested.

1: 6 heavy PPB V, 1 PPB = +6500/0/3900
2: 6 heavy APB XII, 1 APB XII = +5200/0/1560
3: 9 heavy MB VI, 1 large MB VI = +5850/0/2340
4: 4 heavy QT V, 1 large QT V = +4750/0/950
5: 2 heavy WMG III, 1 large WMG III = +4500/0/2200

All were 5-turn build times.

1 organic weapon tested.
1: 6 heavy HPB V, 1 HPB V = +0/7200/0

3-turn build time.

Organic races can outbuild standard races by 60%, then. Maintenance advantage varied from 38 to 56%. With 3 standard ships to 5 organic ships, the outcome will be a toss-up. With 30 standard ships to 50 organic ships, it's no contest. If the organic race makes first kill, it's even worse. My results frequently had over 35 functional ships remaining for the organic race. Superior numbers seem to be almost as conclusive an advantage as superior accuracy, at least at max tech.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">"Quantity has a quality of its own" J.Stalin

[Taera]

That is exactly why i had been playing Organic race since the game was out. Only recently i became bored with it and moved to crystallurgy.

[spoon]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
And just how would you handle building ships twice as quickly, while still maintaining all those vital components that cost only minerals?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Assume your build rate is 4500 (which is what your minimum rate should be as an Organic Race in the mid-game). You can build a good non-organic Battleship for about 18k minerals. You can design a decent Organic battleship for 9k/9k min/org. This means you can can build organic ships twice as fast as non-organic ships. The two to one odds are hard to overcome in the initial contact.

Obviously, both sides can modify their designs after they see what the enemy is using, but, by then, it is usually too late.

-Spoon

[Phoenix-D]

"You can have a lot more ships than me. That is fine. Since yours don't have Quantum Reactors, my ships with Heavy IDs do 120 engine damage per shot. This totally disables one of your ships in one shot"

I keep forgetting the ID doesn't skip shields now. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif At any rate a supply bay or two would fix the problem without adding much cost.

Phoenix-D

[Raging Deadstar]

Hmm there should be a racial tech that uses radioactives, like the organic componenets are made mostly of organics!

Is there any mods that have done that?

[capnq]

Hmm there should be a racial tech that uses radioactives <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think Temporal goes pretty heavy on rads, maybe Crystalline as well. I'm not sure because I haven't played them nearly as much as I have Organic.

Small Electric Discharge is arguably the best fighter weapon in SE IV.

When you look at the research costs, you have to consider the facilities Organic gets you as well. Medical Labs, Gestation Vats, and Replicant Centers all have significant effects.

[Fyron]

Note: I never once argued against the use of organic armor (or facilities, which I think are some of the best racial facilities http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ). I only argued against organic weapons.

To me, they are too weak compared to normal weapons to spend time researching them. Even with faster build times of ships, you can't support more of them. Organic ships will die faster than normal, shielded ships, because high level shields are a lot stronger than organic armer (something like 5 HP/KT for OA III, and 13 HP/KT for Shield V). So, the normal ships will Last a lot longer in strategic combat, and the organic ships will die sooner. Combine this with the weaker weapons, and it doesn't seem like a very good late game strategy to me at all.

[Ruatha]

Is it really so?, If you have a lot of organic armor it regenerates.
Those rammers i built regenerated their entire armor before they where at their next victim, taking them out one by one in the battle.

And yes, you can support a larger fleet if you are organic, as the maintnence is more distributed between organics and minerals. Later in the game it doesn't matter but in the beginning it does.

[ November 27, 2002, 21:17: Message edited by: Ruatha ]

[Fyron]

Organic Armor doesn't regenerate when the ship is destroyed in one round. In larger fleet battles, which is typically how se4 combats are vs. humans, ships are usually destroyed or crippled in one round because the enemy ships concentrate their fire upon them. So, OA doesn't normally get the time it needs to regenerate. If you have a ton of it, then your weapons capacity is greatly lowered, and your ships can't do much damage. Organic Ram ships are easily stopped by Ionic Dispersers. 1 shot from an ID goes right past the OA and knocks out most (if not all) of the engines on the ship. Most good players I have seen stick an ID on at least half of their standard attack ships.

Originally posted by Ruatha:
And yes, you can support a larger fleet if you are organic, as the maintnence is more distributed between organics and minerals. Later in the game it doesn't matter but in the beginning it does.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I personally research Resource Converters as soon as I can. Distribution of resources doesn't mean very much after RCs come into play. Before you gets RCs, you can build more Mineral Miners than Organic Farms, and so the distribution of resources again means nothing for maintenance purposes. I very rarely am unable to have enough planets around to get enough Mineral Miners. And, a 20% racial bonus to Minerals production covers this resource distribution problem very well. Better yet, use Monoliths. Then, it really doesn't matter. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ November 27, 2002, 22:12: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[gravey101]

I thought there was no carry-over on ionic dispersers. I.e. even if your heavy-mounted ID does 120 kt damage, it can only knock out 1 engine per round, the remaining 100kt of damage being lost as it were.

[gravey101]

Nope, I just ran a test and I am wrong. Not sure where I got that from. The damage carries over normally to remaining engines.

[Krsqk]

Why can't you use organic weapon ships without organic armor? My simulator tests used org. weap. with phased shields, and did quite well. Since ID doesn't skip shields anymore, that's not a threat until all the shields are gone.

Engine damage does carry over to the next engine. Partial engine damage is forgotten. At least, IIRC.

[Fyron]

I didn't say you couldn't use Organic Weapons on ships with shields. But some others proposed ships with OA and Organic Weapons vs. ships with normal weapons and Shields. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Partial Only X damage is forgotten if it doesn't destroy an entire component (or more) is not destroyed in 1 shot. This applies to Engines Only, Weapons Only, MC Only, Shield Generators Only, Boarding Parties Only, and Security Stations Only (I think that is all of them...).

[ November 27, 2002, 23:17: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Taera]

rock scissor paper

[Krsqk]

IMHO, if you have to rely on OA to save your ship, you've lost already. If you start with no shields, or you don't have any left, then IDs will make your ship useless. Even if it can fire, it's a sitting duck. I think the same applies to most armor for defense--shields are simply superior. I know armor gives more protection per kt; but a single shield generator blocks IDs, and all the armor in the world won't do that. If the Skips All Shields damage ability were used on a single weapon in the unmodded game, then you'd have to include both shields and armor. Now, you just load up on phased shields, and stealth and scattering armor are included simply because of the ECM bonus.

There is also a Only Planet Destroyers damage type (also not used in the unmodded game). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif I would love to see all the damage types used somehow with weapons in the next (or the next next) patch. Of course, quarter/half/double/quad damage needs to be fixed first.

[Suicide Junkie]

Krsqk:

I don't know where you got the "armor stronger than shields" from... That's only in mods such as P&N...

The only real use for unmodded standard armor as far as I know is when PPBs are in effect and before you have decently powerful Phased shields.

[Krsqk]

Mea culpa...I've been playing too much Devnullmod and P&N lately. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Standard Armor has 4 hitpoints/kt; Phased Shield V has 9.375 hitpoint/kt. OA III and CA III only hit 6.67 hitpoints/kt. Guess that just reinforces my point. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Fyron]

Armor is useful if you end up with 10 extra KT of space. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Captain Kwok]

I think armor should be 5kT - how many times when designing a ship do you end up with 5kT??!

[Fyron]

18.

[oleg]

Originally posted by Krsqk:
Mea culpa...I've been playing too much Devnullmod and P&N lately. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Standard Armor has 4 hitpoints/kt; Phased Shield V has 9.375 hitpoint/kt. OA III and CA III only hit 6.67 hitpoints/kt. Guess that just reinforces my point. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">True, but shields suffer from shield depletors/disruptors. The dedicated anti-armor weapon - SC is race trait specific and rather weak (null-space skips both and thus is a different story).

[Fyron]

They both have weaknesses, yes. But, the weaknesses of Armor are much greater than the weaknesses of Shields, esp. with IDs being stopped by shields with the latest patch. The hp/KT ratio is icing on the cake. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Taera]

consider that: you put three CA and one shield. even if shields are gone, you are resistant to 45 damage from the ID. thats a lot for a weapon that hits components directly.
Put an energy dampener on that ship, coupled with one or two HEM and the very same ID and there would be no second shot.

Damnit, im going to paper-rock-scissors myself.
ok, ill shut up now.

[Fyron]

If the enemy uses CA, use Shield Disruptors. No Shield Generators, no Shields from damage. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Originally posted by Taera:
consider that: you put three CA and one shield. even if shields are gone, you are resistant to 45 damage from the ID. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">CA ships are resistant to NO damage in the first shot. Some damage is added to the shields after the weapon does damage, not before. The 2nd shot is lowered in damage. So, if the first shot past the shields is an ID, the engines are all gone. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ December 01, 2002, 05:43: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Skulky]

slightly OT: just wondering fyron, how your whole economic model works with the monoliths, doens't that take a long time to build up? hence leaving you vulnerable?

Also, i think ID should either have been left as is or armor allowed to be more useful. Even so organics is really only an early game trait, after you start hitting higher ECM bonuses and bigger ships and ID the armor isn't as good, however 3:1 odds are still great i guess. My favorite combo is Religious and Pyshic when you hit end game and you're converting everyone in sight 100% of the time http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

[Fyron]

It takes a few years of game time to get a monolithic economy going. But, you don't start out building 50 of them. You build a few at first, and then more and more as they start being completed. It creates a snowball effect.

Talismans and Allegience Subverters are not balanced to begin with. IMO, they shouldn't be used, especially together. It is a valid strategy because it is allowable in the game, but it is still not a balanced strategy.

[PvK]

Sounds to me like there is a counter-design to just about any design*, which is as it should be. I think Fryon is missing or belittling a few strong points in favor of organic weapons and armor, but he's obviously such a strong player, that I won't bring those up here.

(* except maybe the Talisman, and I think ramming is made far too easy)

One though is that distribution of resources is still important in late game because of reduced build times, and that resource conVersion has a cost, and being able to use rich organics resource values is another factor.

Another I can't help mentioning is that organic armor is extremely cheap, and even though PPB's and DUC's have good damage per kT, they don't have very good damage per _resource_, which determines the number that can be built and maintained.

As for normal armor becoming unuseful after strong phased shields are developed, that may be sort of true from a superiority-design perspective with certain assumptions. However there are still some other uses besides the "Last 10 kT" use. Cheap ram-ships, defense against shield-damaging weapons, and combination with emissive armor, are all still effective uses of standard armor.

PvK

[Fyron]

Actually, APBs and DUCs both have lower damage per cost than the equivalent Plasma Charges and Electric Discharges. PPBs are actully only slightly higher than Hyper Plasma Vs at long range, and less at short range. Organic weapons are actually very expensive, to make up for the fact that they lower overall build time of the ship.

If the conflict happens very quickly in the game, then the Organic player might have the advantage because he can get more ships built in a short time. But, if the conflict happens later, the normal player will be able to build as many ships as the organic player (assuming equal sized empires). Being organic does not allow you to support very many more ships (maybe 10% more, if that) with Monoliths and Resource Converters. With roughly equal numbers of ships, the normal player should win, because his ships overall will be stronger than the Organic players ships.

If you want to talk about the very early game (1 planet, low tech start, and on a small map to create early conflict), someone using DUCs and normal armor will likely be able to overrun an organic race. The DUCs are much stronger than any low level organic weapons and are very cheap (with a much, much better damage per cost value), and take a lot fewer research points. With medium tech costs, you can get DUC IV or V before the enemy gets Organic Weapons 1, and most certainly before he gets OA 1. Even if the organic race has 50% more ships, it won't make up for it. And then, take into account that the normal player gets 1500 more racial points. These can be put into minerals production and construction bonuses, to lessen effect of the decreased build times of organic ships.

I am not saying that organic weapons and armor are useless, I am saying that they are not more powerful than normal tech, and probably not worth 1500 points.

However there are still some other uses besides the "Last 10 kT" use. Cheap ram-ships, defense against shield-damaging weapons, and combination with emissive armor, are all still effective uses of standard armor<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">IDs stop ram ships dead in their tracks. Emmissive armor is not very effective when BBs and DNs come into play. 30 points isn't much compared to the 180 or so being done by the weapons.