SE4 by Committee

[Suicide Junkie]

I was thinking that it might be neat to play a game of SE4 by committee here on shrapnel.
Note: This is a REAL SE4 game, Shrapnel VS AIs, with tactical combat, not just RolePlaying.

Anyone who joins would get one vote in the run of things.
A player who is denoted a Minister would be given significant control over some portion of the empire, and would get a block of 25% votes if the motion falls under thier job description. Only the most applicable minister would get the block.
Because of the 25% block, it will take a 2/3rds majority of the rest of the players to veto.
Preferably, new players would take minister slots, which will make for much debate, and a good learning opportunity.

A player who is denoted a General will be given the option to command fleets in tactical combat for the empire. This requires an Instant Messaging Client (MSN/ICQ/IRC preferred, Yahoo, AOL possible too) and to be available often.

Option:
Players will be given a special unit to mark their place in the galaxy. Generals must be present in the fleet they are to control. All players' marker unit must remain alive and uncaptured in order to vote.
If your marker is captured, and then recovered, you may resume your duties.

This game will likely take as long or longer than a standard PBW game, but the main point is the interaction between forum goers.

Empire setup can be done similarily, with each player making a vote for one positive trait modifier, and one negative trait modifier.

What do you think of the SE4 by committee game idea?

[ December 17, 2002, 15:46: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[Jmenschenfresser]

May I offer a suggestion...

As far as I can tell you mean to play this against the AI. You or some other game host would play what is decided, am I correct?

I suggest that you start a game, select an empire and play through 30-50 turns before starting the committee participation. That way, you can build a few fleets and have some AI interaction from the get go. This way there is something for several people to do at the start than having to wait 25 turns to get a fleet to command.

[Perrin]

It is an interesting idea but it is definitely not my cup of tea. I also see problems developing between the "Players". Too many cooks tends to spoil things. Also what happens when one of your generals/ministers is unavailable due to "real life" (whatever that is).

If you choose to do it I will watch and wish you all good luck.

[geoschmo]

Ooo, now this sounds rather interesting.

SJ, let me see if I have this correct. You are the emporer. At least initially. Various people are appointed ministers for design, research, construction, etc. Others play the parts of generic senators in a ruling body of some sort.

As ships are built then you recruit new players to be captains, and admirals of fleets, etc. What about colony ships and new colonys? Do they get governors?

I think this would be quite fascinating. I could see myself as a captain of an exploratory vessel, or the governor of a border colony.

Can people play different parts at the same time? And if your character gets killed can you get a new one? This has potential for role play big time.

Geoschmo

[Arkcon]

Wow, I'm the 5th voter, and now each option has one vote. I wonder what that means. Clearly nothing ... yet.

This is a fun way to play against the AI, turn on all ministers except one, which you play. Are you the mad scientist (you do research), crazed engineer (the AI researches, you design ships with what you get), the psycotic intelligist (you handle intel, the AI handles diplomacy, can you say "What Iran is our friend this week, OK"

If you play this way yourself, you may find S J's idea more appealing.

I especially like how you gave the virtual minister a 25 % vote for what influences him, nice touch. I'd really like to be in on this.

If there's enough interest, maybe there could be two teams and they could play against each other.

[ December 17, 2002, 16:36: Message edited by: Arkcon ]

[Suicide Junkie]

As far as I can tell you mean to play this against the AI. You or some other game host would play what is decided, am I correct?

I suggest that you start a game, select an empire and play through 30-50 turns before starting the committee participation. That way, you can build a few fleets and have some AI interaction from the get go. This way there is something for several people to do at the start than having to wait 25 turns to get a fleet to command.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, one empire VS the AI. And one secretary to pass out the orders to the game.

The initial turns is a good point. The generals will get at most a scout ship during the early game.
However, the generals won't be very active anyways except during a large campaign.
They still have a senate vote, though, so they won't be totally out of the action.

It is an interesting idea but it is definitely not my cup of tea. I also see problems developing between the "Players". Too many cooks tends to spoil things. Also what happens when one of your generals/ministers is unavailable due to "real life" (whatever that is).<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If a general is sick or otherwise unavailable to defend the fleet he is in, appointing a proxy would be fair.

SJ, let me see if I have this correct. You are the emporer. At least initially. Various people are appointed ministers for design, research, construction, etc. Others play the parts of generic senators in a ruling body of some sort.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I will be just a secretary, marking down the orders, and punching them into the game.
Forum members will vote on various actions. Inter-system Strategic ship orders will be voted on. Tactical combat may be completely controlled by one General who is available on an instant chat service to relay commands during battle.
The wording of the voted order will determine what level of Intra-System movement may be commanded by the General.

If there are enough players, then a specific planetary governor would be possible. You would have "Minister" status regarding activities in the sector.

Can people play different parts at the same time? And if your character gets killed can you get a new one? This has potential for role play big time.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If we decide to go with mortal characters, then there will be a seniority rule for promotions.
IE: the longest living player would have first dibs on your old Job, and if he declines, the next person down gets it. If nobody else wants it, you can have your new character take over the old job.
(Assuming the old job still exists: minister of a glassed colony wouldn't work http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif )

[ December 17, 2002, 16:30: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[Urendi Maleldil]

How about we break up into to teams and play each other instead of the AI. We could get a PW protected forum for each team.

[Suicide Junkie]

That is a possibility, if there are enough players, but I would prefer one "Shrapnel" empire.

For one, the turns will go faster (by committee will slow it down enough already), and two, it will be a community event bringing everyone together.

PS:
Thinking about the Mortal players thing:
If players want to join in after the game has started, that shouldn't be a problem. There should be a delay before they are allowed to start voting, so we can keep the results straight. Having new players begin voting at the end of the turn when their avatars are constructed would be a reasonable point.

Re: Avatars.
Ministers and Senators could be represented by 1KT weapon platforms, while Generals have the option of being represented by a Troop.

The platform markers can be captured and recovered, while the troop markers could be made with Heroic stats and abilities.

Players who are killed would spend a minimum of one turn out of action while their new avatars are constructed, and if there is a lot of death going on, of the players who were killed on the same turn, those that had seniority before they were killed should be given first rebirth.

[ December 17, 2002, 17:20: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[Matryx]

I like the idea http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
I can see myself flying the front line formation of the suicide contact squad:)
Except I probably will get voted out quickly for my *wonderful* combat skills http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif (or lack of)

[Suicide Junkie]

IRC comments:
Krsqk How much participation are we expecting? One person/planet is quite a few people.
SJ Well many planets wouldn't have any minister, and would fall to the next minister to make a case for them... eg: construction, economic, etc.
Krsqk Would/could it end up more like a system-wide governor?
SJ Whoever gives the best reason that they are the primary minister for the issue at hand, gets the 25% block.
SJ Yeah, system governors would be good too.
Krsqk Oh, so now we're politicking for influence, eh? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
SJ Well, if the vote is on building a dreadnought at Geo's Backwater Resort Planet, for example, Geo would have a solid case for getting the Block. Otherwise it would probably fall to the construction minister.
Krsqk But the general of the fleet receiving the dreadnought could push for construction at another planet where he has friends at the shipyard.
SJ Sure... He would try to organize a veto, and support Geo's bid for the block if Geo was going to vote no.
SJ Then a new site would have to be decided on.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Some ideas on Minister jobs:
- Individual planets: small ones seem popular with RPers and those with little time to be in the spotlight. Manages ships in orbit.
- System lords: Rules all planets in a system that have no individual ministers. Manages ships making intra-system journeys.
- Political: One overall, or possibly one Minister for each race as an Ambassador.
- Finance: Watches over the budget and expenditures.
- Defense: Manages the overall inter-system distribution of warships.
- Economic: Manages resource generation, and general facility construction.
- Transportation: Manages the overall non-military shipping and travel arrangements.
- Science: Manages research projects.
- R&D: Designs ships.
- Covert Ops: Manages intel once researched.
- Construction: Decides locations to build at, and negotiates with local ministers.
- Naming Minister: Renames planets, ships, Design Classes.

[ December 17, 2002, 19:32: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[Dead Meat]

Sweet I like the idea SJ. Sign me up (Minister).

[Suicide Junkie]

As for the game setup:
- 3 planet start, to get things rolling.
- Low tech start.
- vast galaxy
- suggestions?

Signups:
#1: Geo. (Local Planetary Minister or General)
#2: Arckon. (R&D Minister)
#3: Matryx (General)
#4: Dead meat (Misc Minister (1st = Defense, 2nd = Construction))

Anyone want to be more specific? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Also, those who chose "Generic Senator", please speak up, so I can add you too.

Geo: Do you want to start as a homeworld minister, and then move to another planet or retire and get a new General character once there are some ships built?
Arkcon: Any particular minister you want? You've got dibs on non-planet ministers.
Matryx: What heroic traits would you like for General Matryx?
Dead Meat: What are your first choices for minister positions?

NOTE:
Generals can be considered "Minister of Tactical Combat"
An experience system for generals will be applied:
Something along the lines of:
+10% experience per ground combat.
+2X/Y experience per space combat. Where X = # of enemy ships, and Y = # of friendly ships.
+20 Starting Experience.

Each 2 experience points could be spent to boost one trait on your general by +1.
- Hitpoints (Starts at 1)
- Shields (Starts at 1/2 kt worth of current tech)
- Weapon damage, (Starts at 1/2kt worth of current tech)
- Leadership(Combat sensors/ECM, starts at zero)

Each General will be a 1KT Troop with a unique component, that will be modified as you gain experience.

[ December 17, 2002, 19:58: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[PvK]

Sounds like a good idea. The P&N mod might be a good idea. SJ could play a pirate race and a nomad race, and the mod has some small civilian ships in it and other colorful and interesting additions. OTOH, it might reduce the widespread appeal - probably worth another poll question.

As for the units for players - I'm not sure why they'd be entirely necessary - SJ could just track character positions on paper, which would probably be easier and more flexible.

How is character movement going to be carried out? If we want to travel from place to place, will we need to somehow get an in-game ship to move from planet A to planet B? If so, we'll probably want a lot of little transports... which would be neat, and probably best with a mod to add tiny cheap ones, although again it might be more sane to just have SJ track it on paper.

It would be more interesting if at least some of the opposition was potentially human. There could be a few adversary players, and/or SJ, and then just one committee empire.

PvK

[PvK]

I would suggest running a fairly large number of turns before starting the committee play, instead of a 3-planet start.

I'd also suggest a High research cost. I've played games before as a fleet commander, leaving the rest of my empire to the AI ministers, and with research faster than slow, the fleets tend to become obsolete as quickly as they are able to carry out missions and get refuelled.

PvK

[Dan C.]

I have often thought that the 4X games suffered from an abundance of information. Ye Olde Emperor who is 12 turns of movement from the front somehow knows that they need to buid a few more minesweepers because the enemny is now using mines in larger numbers.

Perhaps quick and perfect communication between all the somewhat developed worlds in empire is good/normal/acceptable, but when you send that fleet through the warp point, and they all get eliminated? Now there may be auto-launching flight data recorders or something, but I think there should be a much greater Fog of war.

How about this for a concept. Have one large central empire which is say the size of 5 normal empires. You have 5 players (or AI) competing against them on more-or-less islolated fronts. Assign one Imperial player as Military commander of each district, with control of all the fleets and some limited production, and then a Emperor (or council) which allocates the majority of empire builds and all tech advances etc. based on the written reports of each district commander (with perhaps a turn or two delay until the Messages are recieved)?

[Suicide Junkie]

PvK:
If I'm going to keep track of the stats manually, I'd be doing it in notepad, and if I'm doing it in notepad, its not hard to do it in the datafiles too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Plus your Generals can have an effect on ground combat, and the location information is tracked automatically.

I think I will run a few turns initially. Mainly to build all of the avatars, but I could throw in some orbital spaceyards too.
I want to do as few turns as possible before the committee is in full force.

Dan C:
Some of that may happen here, though the communication will still be instantaneous. Going through a committee to reallocate resources will provide that fog of war http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Optionally, I can also not report information that should be lost, such as ships lost in minefields or black holes.

PS:
Regarding the voting system:
If only one Minister holds clear control over an issue, they recieve a 25% vote block, requiring a 2/3rds senate majority to be vetoed.
If two Ministers apply to a decision, the Primary minister will receive a 20% vote block, and the secondary Minister will receive a 10% vote block, requiring a 72% senate majority to veto two ministers in agreement.

An example of the second would be the Naming minister wanting to rename "Geo's Backwater Resort". As the local Governor being directly affected, Geo would be the majority minister with a 20% block. The naming minister is clearly involved, and so would be the secondary with a 10% block.

[ December 17, 2002, 19:54: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[Arkcon]

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:

Arkcon: Any particular minister you want? You've got dibs on non-planet ministers.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Okay, I'd like to be Science Minister. I say I'd like that -- not sure everyone else would like my research choices.

I came up with something else, don't know if its too late in the planning to introduce another wrinkle...

Everyone who wants to join, gets a system to govern. You can appoint one of those system governers a minister at the start, but if there is a global vote of non-confidence, a minister can lose their position to some other system governor.

For example, "What, Arkcon spent 10 turns getting stupid drones? Lets vote him out and put Geo in, he'll know what to do."

By the way, I doubt I can be accessible enough to run a fleet. Most minister communication can happen by email or this forum, right. Else, I may have to pass entirely http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[ December 17, 2002, 19:57: Message edited by: Arkcon ]

[LazarusLong42]

Sounds interesting to me, though given my time constraints I'll be happy as a plain ol' senator. I will make two suggestions however:

1. Don't do it on the Shrapnel Forums. Unless you can get them to set up a special forum for you, the discussions and votes will get hopelessly muddled in one thread.

I'd be happy to host a forum for the purpose of playing the game.

2. Run the game on PBW, so that everyone can easily access it. We'll have to create a "public" user for the purpose, but I don't see a problem with that either.

Eric/LL

[Suicide Junkie]

Arkcon:
A 2/3rds Senate vote to expel a minister sounds good.
And yes, all open comms and votes will be taken via forum.

Only Generals engaging in tactical combat need Instant Messenger clients.

New players joining would have the option of taking any available minister slot, being a general or a senator, and would follow the same rules as players who previously died in game.

LazarusLong:
1) Seems fair enough. I wonder who is the person to talk to know that Richard's gone?
A dedicated forum would be nice, too.

2) No can do, PBW dosen't take sequential turn games, or tactical combat http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
I am going to be manually entering the commands, modding player experience in, and generating reports. I may just post the savegame for public viewing if its too much work to generate the reports...

Signups:
#1: Geo. (Local Planetary Minister or General)
#2: Arckon. (Science Minister)
#3: Matryx (General)
#4: Dead meat (Defense Minister)
#5: LazarusLong (Senator)

Minister jobs:
- Individual planets: small ones seem popular with RPers and those with little time to be in the spotlight. Manages ships in orbit.
- System lords: Rules all planets in a system that have no individual ministers. Manages ships making intra-system journeys.
- Political: One overall, or possibly one Minister for each race as an Ambassador.
- Finance: Watches over the budget and expenditures.
- Defense: Manages the overall inter-system distribution of warships.
- Economic: Manages resource generation, and general facility construction.
- Transportation: Manages the overall non-military shipping and travel arrangements.
- Colonization: Organizes colonization efforts.
Covered by Transportation if nobody claims the job.
- Science: Manages research projects.
- R&D: Designs ships.
- Covert Ops: Manages intel once researched.
- Construction: Decides locations to build at, and negotiates with local ministers.
- Naming Minister: Renames planets, ships, Design Classes.

[ December 17, 2002, 20:15: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[Lemmy]

Sounds like the Democracy game thingie i posted a while ago, there have been games like this (community vs AI) on some civilization forums for a few months now..

ooh, i found my old thread..it seems i had some trouble getting the idea through to people http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif link (http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=006574;p=1)

I'm actually acting president for a SMAC democarcy game right now, it's fun, but also a lot of work...i'll post my experiences when i have read more of this thread. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by PvK:
How is character movement going to be carried out? If we want to travel from place to place, will we need to somehow get an in-game ship to move from planet A to planet B? If so, we'll probably want a lot of little transports... which would be neat, and probably best with a mod to add tiny cheap ones, although again it might be more sane to just have SJ track it on paper.
PvK<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">For Ship Admirals it's easy enoough. They have a flagship. We can rename the ship's if they transfer their flag to a different vessel.

As far as the planet bound ministers, senator, governors, lords. Why not have personal ships assigned to each character. If we use some kind of unit to represent the player then it's asimple matter of having small cheap vessels that have a cargo unit on them. You could make the crew quarters hold cargo and then load the minister unit on them. For that matter the ship admirals could be done this way as well. Once we work out the specifics it wouldn't be that hard to do in game, and it would add a lot of depth to the idea I think.

Geoschmo

[Suicide Junkie]

As far as the planet bound ministers, senator, governors, lords. Why not have personal ships assigned to each character.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That would be up to the R&D, finance and transportation ministers, I believe http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

There could be a handful of tiny personal shuttles for some of the big ministers, and some high-speed passenger busses for the backwater governors.

Whatever the budget allows for, and the senate votes for http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[geoschmo]

I think a person that has acheived the wealth and status associated with a position such as this could be assumed to have some personal means capable of such a vessel. Perhaps in times of great crises these could be "appropriated" by the local or empire authorities, but I think at least for some levels of positions these vehicles should be a basic perk of the position.

Geoschmo

[Lemmy]

k, after reading the Posts in this thread:
(beware, i'm mostly criticizing all your ideas here, don't take this the wrong way, i would very much like to see a game like this)

Too many cooks tends to spoil things.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not really, in the game i'm in, there are currently 2 players who don't like each other at all, it's basically one thing they don't agree about, one says option a is good cos it will help us win the game, the other says option b is better, because it is "good" from an RP-perspective, adn we'll win anyway. They haven't resorted to namecalling or something like that, and for each statement they make against each other, they bring good arguments, so actually it makes the game better.

Tactical combat
How exactly do you want to do this? Over IRC or some IM program?
Even then, how long will it take for the secretary to move, say 10 ships? I mean the general has to be aware of the current situation to make the right decisions.
And you can't

Mortality, Game location
That's gonna be one big administration, keeping track of where everyone is in the universe, if they can do certain action or not

- Individual planets: small ones seem popular with RPers and those with little time to be in the spotlight. Manages ships in orbit.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What managing is there to do with ships in orbit?
Retrofit and disband (and maybe tactical combat).
They can't be moved, cos then the governor will lose jurisdiction over the ship.
Same goes for
- System lords: Rules all planets in a system that have no individual ministers. Manages ships making intra-system journeys.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Signups:
...
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Whoaa, slow down there, it would be best to sort out jurisdictions and job descriptions first, how many ministers are there? What minister gets to control what? How are ministers chosen? Who plays the game? What exactly do governors do?

oh well, that's all for now, maybe more later.

[TerranC]

I love the idea! I'd like to be Design minister, or naming minister, If possible.

[Lemmy]

I'd like to be test pilot, testing new designs in the combat simulator, adn reporting back to the design minister http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by Lemmy:
Tactical combat
How exactly do you want to do this? Over IRC or some IM program?
Even then, how long will it take for the secretary to move, say 10 ships? I mean the general has to be aware of the current situation to make the right decisions.
And you can't
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Looks like you stopped in mid sentance here. But basically tactical combat would be simple. The secrtary does most of the empire work and then when it comes time for the battle he can save the game and email it to the admiral fo the fleet in question and let him control it for the battle, save the game and send it back to the secretary without ending turn. THe only time it would be a problem is if the enemy attacks during their turn. The Secretary might have to just control the fleet in that case.

Or maybe we could do strategic combat and the Admiral player is just a person that makes decisions on a large scale, lobying the senate for new ships, giving fleet move to orders, setting strategies, etc.

Geoschmo

[ December 17, 2002, 21:37: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

[Arkcon]

Originally posted by geoschmo:
As far as the planet bound ministers, senator, governors, lords. Why not have personal ships assigned to each character. If we use some kind of unit to represent the player then it's asimple matter of having small cheap vessels that have a cargo unit on them. You could make the crew quarters hold cargo and then load the minister unit on them. For that matter the ship admirals could be done this way as well. Once we work out the specifics it wouldn't be that hard to do in game, and it would add a lot of depth to the idea I think.

Geoschmo<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wow, finally a use for escorts

[tesco samoa]

Defense: Manages the overall inter-system distribution of warships
or general...

Perhaps later one of the senators can stumble and fall and i can take over...

but a general is where i wish to be...

P.S. I was the first to vote general in the other thread....

[Suicide Junkie]

A player who is denoted a General will be given the option to command fleets in tactical combat for the empire. This requires an Instant Messaging Client (MSN/ICQ/IRC preferred, Yahoo, AOL possible too) and to be available often.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sometimes Combat happens unexpectedly, too, and there may be multiple engagements per turn.

I will simply IM orders and reports back and forth with the general as the battle happens.

Mortality, Game location
That's gonna be one big administration, keeping track of where everyone is in the universe, if they can do certain action or not<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">There will simply be a troop unit that is loaded, unloaded and moved around in game, leaving SE4 to take care of it all.

What managing is there to do with ships in orbit?
Retrofit and disband (and maybe tactical combat).
They can't be moved, cos then the governor will lose jurisdiction over the ship.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I know its not much, but if you don't want the job, don't take it. Deciding which ships to retrofit first, and whether to release a ship or finishe repairs would fit.
You may be overruled by a bigger minister and/or the senate, but you will surely get a block of votes, and make an impact.

Signups:
#1: Geo. (Local Planetary Minister)
#2: Arckon. (Science Minister)
#3: Matryx (General)
#4: Dead meat (Defense Minister)
#5: LazarusLong (Senator)
#6: TerranC (R&D Minister)
#7: Lemmy (General [so you can command/fly ships])
#8: Tesco Samoa (General)

[ December 17, 2002, 21:51: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[PvK]

Originally posted by geoschmo:
...
basically tactical combat would be simple. The secrtary does most of the empire work and then when it comes time for the battle he can save the game and email it to the admiral fo the fleet in question and let him control it for the battle, save the game and send it back to the secretary without ending turn. THe only time it would be a problem is if the enemy attacks during their turn. The Secretary might have to just control the fleet in that case.

Or maybe we could do strategic combat and the Admiral player is just a person that makes decisions on a large scale, lobying the senate for new ships, giving fleet move to orders, setting strategies, etc.
Geoschmo[/QB]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oh when chat programs were mentioned as requirements for generals, I was thinking tactical combat would involve sending screenshots back and forth, and the game master or an adversary player playing the other side, since tactical combat between humans is a lot more interesting that against the AI.

I was thinking that maybe the game's mod should include small passenger vessels, so the empire wouldn't be burdened by the cost of full transports (or even escorts - except in a mod like Proportions, these are expensive because of all the engines) just to send Senator Pomboo to Backwater XII.

Also, it might be spiffy if personal wealth could be accumulated, and used to do some limited things without committee approval...

PvK

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by PvK:
[QUOTE]Oh when chat programs were mentioned as requirements for generals, I was thinking tactical combat would involve sending screenshots back and forth, and the game master or an adversary player playing the other side, since tactical combat between humans is a lot more interesting that against the AI.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think that is what SJ had in mind too. I was just suggesting an alternative option.

Geo

[Lemmy]

Originally posted by geoschmo:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Lemmy:
Tactical combat
How exactly do you want to do this? Over IRC or some IM program?
Even then, how long will it take for the secretary to move, say 10 ships? I mean the general has to be aware of the current situation to make the right decisions.
And you can't
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Looks like you stopped in mid sentance here.
...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif
I really shouldn't be doing 2 things at once..

Anyqway, here's the rest:
And you can't distribute the savegame while your playing to the needed general, what if he isn't Online? The secretary and generals would have to find compatible Online times, it may sounds easy, but in the SMACDG it's impossible to get the full ~10 man government Online for a turnchat (where the president plays the turns and keeps the ministers updated on IRC).
Turnchats are usually done with half the government, and the present minister will decide what to do if something unexpected happens, even if the minister whose job it is, isn't present...

To summarise my ramblings, i have very little faith in tactical combat with generals.

i'd rather see this:
Or maybe we could do strategic combat and the Admiral player is just a person that makes decisions on a large scale, lobying the senate for new ships, giving fleet move to orders, setting strategies, etc.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

[Krsqk]

How will race setup be determined?

We could setup a poll with "plus attributes," "minus attributes," "plus traits," and "minus traits" (culture/happiness, too? Atmosphere/planet type? Shipset? The list goes on and on http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ). Allow selection of, say, 5-6 on each question. Combine positive and negative results, and use those in determining which traits have priority for raising/lowering/selecting.

Of course, we could choose Gas Giants and take -50% to research, production, happiness, environmental resistance, and construction and -20% to maintenance--just to give the AI a chance. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[edit--Used {}s instead of ()s. Too much time in POV-ray. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ]

[ December 17, 2002, 22:54: Message edited by: Krsqk ]

[LazarusLong42]

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
LazarusLong:
1) Seems fair enough. I wonder who is the person to talk to know that Richard's gone?
A dedicated forum would be nice, too.

2) No can do, PBW dosen't take sequential turn games, or tactical combat http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
I am going to be manually entering the commands, modding player experience in, and generating reports. I may just post the savegame for public viewing if its too much work to generate the reports...

Signups:
#1: Geo. (Local Planetary Minister or General)
#2: Arckon. (Science Minister)
#3: Matryx (General)
#4: Dead meat (Defense Minister)
#5: LazarusLong (Senator)
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">(1) OK, I'll try to get a forum set up... sometime. Ping me over email and remind me;

(2) True, though you could set it to "never run auto turns" and just upload each turn for easy distribution.

(3) Aw, heck, I'll take colonization minister, since you seem to still need some ministers. It's what I do best. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Eric/LL

[Lemmy]

Question:
Are those positions just handed out to whoever wants them, or will there be actual elections before the game starts?

[Dead Meat]

First come first serve.

[Suicide Junkie]

And you can't distribute the savegame while your playing to the needed general, what if he isn't Online? The secretary and generals would have to find compatible Online times, it may sounds easy, but in the SMACDG it's impossible to get the full ~10 man government Online for a turnchat (where the president plays the turns and keeps the ministers updated on IRC).
Turnchats are usually done with half the government, and the present minister will decide what to do if something unexpected happens, even if the minister whose job it is, isn't present...<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I only need to do IM chat with the particular General who is involved in that particular combat.
If more than one is going to be in the same fleet, they would decide beforehand who will lead and when the other can take over.
The likely choice would be the one who is present at the time, and if both are, seniority would decide the leader unless the fleets are already divided up somehow.

The generals all have to be people who can be on IM clients regularily.
Find me at
MSN: hohoho611@hotmail.com (no email, just MSN)
ICQ: 155877638
IRC: #se4 on gamesnet.net
I can create an account on Yahoo or AOL if I need to.

Signups:
#1: Geo. (General/Colony Ship Captain)
#2: Arkcon. (Science Minister)
#3: Matryx (General)
#4: Dead meat (Defense Minister)
#5: LazarusLong (Colonization Minister)
#6: TerranC (R&D Minister)
#7: Lemmy (General/Simulation Minister)
#8: Tesco Samoa (General)

[ December 18, 2002, 03:36: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[LazarusLong42]

S_J:

Check your Private Message Box.

Eric/LL

[Suicide Junkie]

Got it. Had a problem, though. See PM

[Taera]

i guess im too late, plus i dont yet have Gold (will soon). i've read this from school but had no way of posting it from there :-/
Guess i'll hae to wait for second row...
Anyway, i had a suggestion:
Every position has replacement people standing in the line. as soon as one is killed/exits he is moved to the end (if killed) and the next person takes his place.
How does that sound?

[Suicide Junkie]

You don't need Gold to play.
You don't even need SE4 to play, but it would help. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I will be typing in the commands that the players and senate dictate, and will post the savegame and summaries of the events.

If any particular minister dies, is promoted, retires or is evicted by the senate, then the Avatars with the greatest seniority will have first dibs on taking over the position.
Seniority is based on time since Last ressurection.

Signups:
#1: Geo. (General/Colony Ship Captain)
#2: Arkcon. (Science Minister)
#3: Matryx (General)
#4: Dead meat (Defense Minister)
#5: LazarusLong (Colonization Minister)
#6: TerranC (R&D Minister)
#7: Lemmy (General/Simulation Minister)
#8: Tesco Samoa (General)

Minister jobs:
- Individual planets: small ones seem popular with RPers and those with little time to be in the spotlight. Manages ships in orbit.
- System lords: Rules all planets in a system that have no individual ministers. Manages ships making intra-system journeys.
- Political: One overall, or possibly one Minister for each race as an Ambassador.
- Finance: Watches over the budget and expenditures.
(Taken) Defense: Manages the overall inter-system distribution of warships.
- Economic: Manages resource generation, and general facility construction.
- Transportation: Manages the overall non-military shipping and travel arrangements.
(Taken) Colonization: Organizes colonization efforts.
Covered by Transportation if nobody claims the job.
(Taken) Science: Manages research projects.
(Taken) R&D: Designs ships.
- Covert Ops: Manages intel once researched.
- Construction: Decides locations to build at, and negotiates with local ministers.
- Naming Minister: Renames planets, ships, Design Classes.

[ December 18, 2002, 03:45: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[tesco samoa]

we could create a channel on games net as well

[Dan C.]

Okay, this sounds different and interesting. I'll take transportation minister if it is still open.

I can see how this goes and after learning what not to do attempt my idea...

[Skulky]

I'd like to be Construction minister. And once the game gets rolling, if i could get one or two planets (or a whole system) that is like a construction hub. assuming everyone agrees. I think teh system lords is really cool, cause then ppl will have to negotiate for what they want etc.

[Askan Nightbringer]

I like the sounds of this.
I'll be a Senator.

Askan

[Lemmy]

I only need to do IM chat with the particular General who is involved in that particular combat.
If more than one is going to be in the same fleet, they would decide beforehand who will lead and when the other can take over.
The likely choice would be the one who is present at the time, and if both are, seniority would decide the leader unless the fleets are already divided up somehow.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What if the general isn't Online, or 2 generals are needed for 2 consecutive battles, and only one of them is Online, do you stop the game? Or let the other general take over combat?

[Sabaoth]

I really like this idea. I would like to be a system lord, if the opportunity arises.

[oleg]

Originally posted by Sabaoth:
I really like this idea. I would like to be a system lord, if the opportunity arises.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">There shall be only one System Lord - your god Apophis

[Suicide Junkie]

What if the general isn't Online, or 2 generals are needed for 2 consecutive battles, and only one of them is Online, do you stop the game? Or let the other general take over combat?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I can leave the game running on my PC for a few hours while waiting for the next General to wake up/get home from work/etc.
Not a problem.
Generals should have a proxy player in another timezone, preferably.

The finance minister is the Last job we will really need filled (at least before first contact). Plenty of power since most things boil down to needing money http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Anyone want it? Lemmy?

Signups:
#1: Geo. (General/Colony Ship Captain)
#2: Arkcon. (Science Minister)
#3: Matryx (General)
#4: Dead meat (Defense Minister)
#5: LazarusLong (Colonization Minister)
#6: TerranC (R&D Minister)
#7: Lemmy (General/Simulation Minister)
#8: Tesco Samoa (General)
#9: Dan C (Transportation Minister)
#10: Skulky (Construction Minister)
#11: Askan Nightbringer (Senator)
#12: Sabaoth (System Lord)
#13: Krsqk (Finance Minister)

Minister jobs:
- Individual planets: small ones seem popular with RPers and those with little time to be in the spotlight. Manages ships in orbit.
- System lords: Rules all planets in a system that have no individual ministers. Manages ships making intra-system journeys.
- Political: One overall, or possibly one Minister for each race as an Ambassador.
(Taken) Finance: Watches over the budget and expenditures.
(Taken) Defense: Manages the overall inter-system distribution of warships.
- Economic: Manages resource generation, and general facility construction.
(Taken) Transportation: Manages the overall non-military shipping and travel arrangements.
(Taken) Colonization: Organizes colonization efforts.
Covered by Transportation if nobody claims the job.
(Taken) Science: Manages research projects.
(Taken) R&D: Designs ships.
- Covert Ops: Manages intel once researched.
(Taken) Construction: Decides locations to build at, and negotiates with local ministers.
- Naming Minister: Renames planets, ships, Design Classes.

[ December 18, 2002, 14:25: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[Krsqk]

I'll volunteer for the finance minister.

[Ragnarok]

This is all a really interesting idea.
I will probably take political minister.
What all would be involved with that one? I wouldn't need to be Online in like IRC would I? Let me know what all I would have to do.

[Puke]

this does all sound pretty cool. i probably would not have enough time to play very often, but i think i would not mind governing some little provincial backwatter, if one ever opened up. maybe if you ever colonize a planet with a moon(s) then I could take one or the other, and bicker with the govenor of the planet or moon.

or maybe if you just have some backwatter system filled with several small-fry planetary govenors, you could toss me in there too. maybe we could start a little civil war in the system, or have labor disputes or something. we could name the planet Berkeley and ban anything useful from being built there.

it would be a 'green' planet with no industrial construction, and no military construction, and we would get upset about the polution caused by excessive coffee bean grinding. and we would complain any time the output from our research facilities were used for anything besides developing new eco-friendly farming techniques.

or not. or most definitly not. i would still like to be a backwater govenor with neighbors to bicker with, though.

[Suicide Junkie]

What all would be involved with that one? I wouldn't need to be Online in like IRC would I? Let me know what all I would have to do.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">As the political minister, you will get a major block of votes when dealing with alien races.
You would also be the person to turn to if another player wants to deal with aliens (trade, demands, pay a ransom for a captured avatar, etc).
Until aliens do show up, you'll essentially be a senator.

Signups:
#1: Geo. (General/Colony Ship Captain)
#2: Arkcon. (Science Minister)
#3: Matryx (General)
#4: Dead meat (Defense Minister)
#5: LazarusLong (Colonization Minister)
#6: TerranC (R&D Minister)
#7: Lemmy (General/Simulation Minister)
#8: Tesco Samoa (General)
#9: Dan C (Transportation Minister)
#10: Skulky (Construction Minister)
#11: Askan Nightbringer (Senator)
#12: Sabaoth (System Lord)
#13: Krsqk (Finance Minister)
#14: Ragnarok (Political Minister/Ambassador)
#15: Puke (Local Governor)

Minister jobs:
- Individual planets: small ones seem popular with RPers and those with little time to be in the spotlight. Manages ships in orbit.
- System lords: Rules all planets in a system that have no individual ministers. Manages ships making intra-system journeys.
(Taken) Political: One overall, or possibly one Minister for each race as an Ambassador.
(Taken) Finance: Watches over the budget and expenditures.
(Taken) Defense: Manages the overall inter-system distribution of warships.
- Economic: Manages resource generation, and general facility construction.
(Taken) Transportation: Manages the overall non-military shipping and travel arrangements.
(Taken) Colonization: Organizes colonization efforts.
Covered by Transportation if nobody claims the job.
(Taken) Science: Manages research projects.
(Taken) R&D: Designs ships.
- Covert Ops: Manages intel once researched.
(Taken) Construction: Decides locations to build at, and negotiates with local ministers.
- Naming Minister: Renames planets, ships, Design Classes.

[Captain Kwok]

I'll sign up for Naming minister.

[Ragnarok]

As the political minister, you will get a major block of votes when dealing with alien races.
You would also be the person to turn to if another player wants to deal with aliens (trade, demands, pay a ransom for a captured avatar, etc).
Until aliens do show up, you'll essentially be a senator. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Alright, I think I can handle that. I will do the best I can.

[Will]

Neato. I'll just be a senator for now, maybe pick up a small backwater planet (or system) later on.

[Suicide Junkie]

Originally posted by Captain Kwok:
I'll sign up for Naming minister.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If you can think of a better name than "Naming" minister, you're in http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Signups:
#1: Geo. (General/Colony Ship Captain)
#2: Arkcon. (Science Minister)
#3: Matryx (General)
#4: Dead meat (Defense Minister)
#5: LazarusLong (Colonization Minister)
#6: TerranC (R&D Minister)
#7: Lemmy (General/Simulation Minister)
#8: Tesco Samoa (General)
#9: Dan C (Transportation Minister)
#10: Skulky (Construction Minister)
#11: Askan Nightbringer (Senator)
#12: Sabaoth (System Lord/Local Governor)
#13: Krsqk (Finance Minister)
#14: Ragnarok (Political Minister/Ambassador)
#15: Puke (Local Governor)
#16: Captain Kwok ("Naming" Minister)
#17: Will (Senator)

Minister jobs:
- Individual planets: small ones seem popular with RPers and those with little time to spend in the spotlight. Manages ships in orbit.
- System lords: Rules all planets in a system that have no individual ministers. Manages ships making intra-system journeys.
(Taken) Political: One overall, or possibly one Minister for each race as an Ambassador.
(Taken) Finance: Watches over the budget and expenditures.
(Taken) Defense: Manages the overall inter-system distribution of warships.
- Economic: Manages resource generation, and general facility construction.
(Taken) Transportation: Manages the overall non-military shipping and travel arrangements.
(Taken) Colonization: Organizes colonization efforts.
Covered by Transportation if nobody claims the job.
(Taken) Science: Manages research projects.
(Taken) R&D: Designs ships.
- Covert Ops: Manages intel once researched.
(Taken) Construction: Decides locations to build at, and negotiates with local ministers.
(Taken) Naming Minister: Renames planets, ships, Design Classes.

[ December 18, 2002, 23:09: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[David E. Gervais]

..Intergalatic Designation Minister.. Been there done that and as a result I love the new show "John Doe" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

P.S. SJ, this thread is seeing as much action as my Avatar thread in it's hey day! It's great to be popular Eh? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ December 18, 2002, 23:53: Message edited by: David Gervais ]

[geoschmo]

"Minister of Nomenclature" ?

[Suicide Junkie]

Yes, it is nice to be popular http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Geo:
Nice work, now I can build your office.

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
Geo:
Nice work, now I can build your office.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What? I didn't want the job. I just was throwing that out there. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[geoschmo]

Hey SJ. Are you going to allow a System Lord to decide he wants to stage a little revolt if he wants. I could see one from a major system getting uppity and building some ships of his own. Might require some of the regular navy to show up and put the revolt down. Of course combat would be problematic. Maybe you could estimate it in the simulator or something. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Geoschmo

[Suicide Junkie]

What? I didn't want the job. I just was throwing that out there. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hey, oops. Ah, well. Kwok's got the job anyways. He's just got a little more pressure to come up with good names now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Geo:
Good question. A system lord could start voting against moving ships out, and try to collect a navy...
He would probably have to have a rebel General in the fleet or be personally present in order to block the senate's orders from the ships... The senate would be able to vote him out of office, but he should retain some command over the immediate ships.
Perhaps once loyalist ships or a senator enters the sector, the rebel would be removed and control returned to normal ... so the rebellion could withhold ships from a war effort by playing cat-and-mouse for a few months, or go off and attack on his own for a while.
This is worth a vote.

[Krsqk]

Personally, I think this is a great idea. Whole systems or Groups of systems could even band together and revolt. The home systems could even revolt (this would be much harder to organize with the high concentration of senators in the system; would also probably require out-of-game communication). This will probably turn into RL politics, with each minister or group of ministers promoting their own interests at the expense of the empire. Who knows, we may even see political parties form out of this. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

The one concern I have right now is the level of involvment of the Senate. How much influence do they have in the day-to-day affairs of every planet or transport or exploration ship? Do they really even care if Planet X has enough fighters or System Y has a plague (unless that's where they're from:))? I guess the gist of my question is, does the Senate vote on every action, or are some actions only subject to the planet/system/fleet/whatever leaders?

One more question. Do I as finance minister have a say in the "invisible" financial matters, like worker or government payrolls? For example, could I get a 25% block to cut the research budget (by scrapping research facilities)? Just wondering exactly how far I can push my boundaries. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[edit-styoopid smileys:)]

[ December 19, 2002, 02:59: Message edited by: Krsqk ]

[Arkcon]

Originally posted by Krsqk:
Do I as finance minister have a say in the "invisible" financial matters, like worker or government payrolls? For example, could I get a 25% block to cut the research budget (by scrapping research facilities)? Just wondering exactly how far I can push my boundaries. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[edit-styoopid smileys:)]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Watch it there with those research centers, "he who cannot be named", as Minister of Science, I may have to throw my 25 % against you. And I'll have the support of governers of large, optimal planets with low resource levels. Who else would they support? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

The SE4 by Committee Forum
Thanks to Lazarus Long, there is now a forum up for the day-to-day running of this game!
Visit here, and sign up! (link) (http://www.invirtuo.cc/se4/index.php)

Join up with your shrapnel names, or tell me who you are in this thread.
I will then add you, as applicable, to the senators, ministers, and officers Groups.
Ministers will get offices, and moderator powers there for taking calls and having meetings.
Officers have a lounge, and Senators are allowed to vote.
(Note: Ministers and Officers are Senators too)

Originally posted by Krsqk:
The one concern I have right now is the level of involvment of the Senate. How much influence do they have in the day-to-day affairs of every planet or transport or exploration ship? Do they really even care if Planet X has enough fighters or System Y has a plague (unless that's where they're from:))? I guess the gist of my question is, does the Senate vote on every action, or are some actions only subject to the planet/system/fleet/whatever leaders?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The senate could certainly grant some independence to certain colonies and ministers. They could simply not bring up certain issues to vote on, and ignore them.
If a Minister or Officer wishes to do something against a senate decision, they would be privately warned that it may be considered treason. If the senate fails to notice, no problem, otherwise they may be voted a traitor and forcibly removed from office as a rebel.

One more question. Do I as finance minister have a say in the "invisible" financial matters, like worker or government payrolls? For example, could I get a 25% block to cut the research budget (by scrapping research facilities)? Just wondering exactly how far I can push my boundaries. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[edit-styoopid smileys:)][/QB]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, Construction Minister Skulky would get one of the blocks for build orders. And the other block would probably fall to the local governor of the planet in question.
Science Minister Arkcon might have a word or two for you as well http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

You could get a majority block on a vote for a budget plan "The empire needs to add six more rads facilities, and 20,000 mineral storage this next year"
If the construction minister then scraps rads miners and mineral storage facilities, him and the planetary governor/system lord in question may be branded traitors.
I suspect you will find you have more direct control over the out-going resources than the incoming. New ship construction would definitely be a finance concern.

That brings up the question of the social structure of the Empire... does the bigger minister get the majority vote, or the local governor?
Can there be a declared state of emergency where the priorities reverse?
Can local governors authorize construction,scrappings and other orders on their own?
If the local governor and the immediate minister agree, does a senate vote have to be taken?

[geoschmo]

I think it would be most realistic if the senate and the main minsters didn't get involved in every day to day decision a system lord or planetary governor makes. In times of economic crises they would vote to withhold resources for construction projects (put queues on hold) and might direct the various planets to build certain things.

The System Lords I think will be the most interesting position in this thing. They should have the ability to make autonimous decisions and decide whether to follow the Empires directions or not. Of course a System Lord that disobeys too often runs the risk of being replaced. So it will be a balancing act on their part.

Revolts would be very interesting. Some ships Generals could be convinced to follow the system lord with promises of larger ships and fleets to command. Maybe be given a planet of their own. This has so many intersting options in it. It could be fun to play even without AI. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Geoschmo

[geoschmo]

SJ, I can't seem to post in the other forum. It's telling me I have to have special access.

Geoschmo

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by geoschmo:
SJ, I can't seem to post in the other forum. It's telling me I have to have special access.

EDIT: Maybe it's cause I am not a Senator? I can post in the Bar & Grill ok.

Geoschmo<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

[Krsqk]

That brings up the question of the social structure of the Empire... does the bigger minister get the majority vote, or the local governor?
Can there be a declared state of emergency where the priorities reverse?
Can local governors authorize construction,scrappings and other orders on their own?
If the local governor and the immediate minister agree, does a senate vote have to be taken?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That also brings up the question of governmental structure. Are we (for the purposes of this game) a two-branch government with separation of powers and checks and balances? Or is either the executive branch or legislative branch supreme?

Will there be a defined goal for the game, such as 1) beat the AI http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif , 2) role-play and cause general mayhem, or 3) just do your thing? I.e., is there any "constitutional" direction for our empire, or is it solely the product of our clashes?

Also, will there be any process for including new "players" as the game progresses?

[Suicide Junkie]

Yes, Geo. You need to be a senator in order to speak in the Senate Room.

Be patient for a second while I fiddle around in the admin menu http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Krsqk:
Structure, eh? Normally, I'd expect the ministers to have the most power. If they abuse it, some irate Generals might decide to move the fleet a few million klicks back from the shuttle as the Rage warships approach http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
It seems to me that it is a mostly homogenous single branch government that will self-divide chaotically according to the situation.

As for making some checks, balances and peeling off some branches, see the Senate room over at the committee Forum
http://www.invirtuo.cc/se4/index.php

Predetermined goal, I'd say survival is a good starting point http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Some players may want to gain power, and command huge fleets, or great political strength, or just to be the "local" governor of the first Sphereworld and have it named after themselves http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
If you want, the senate could vote for a declaration of principles or somesuch.

[David E. Gervais]

SJ, I just posted the new Badges in my 'Avatar' thread. Let me know what you think!

Cheers!

[Spoo]

I want to be a planetary governor. Breathable world would be ideal.

[Suicide Junkie]

Great stuff David!

I commented in the avatar thread too.

Spoo: No problem, there are still homeworlds available.
I've added you to the senators group, and I'm going to sleep now.

I'll finish with your special rank & stuff tomorrow http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Skulky]

I'll take on teh job of economic minister for now as well. I'm in favor of a few dummy Ai empires being created to allow people to revolt (they will be given a new forum, and their holdings will be transfered to the new AI).

I think we shoudl also set up a judicial branch too (only supreme court). And an executive would be good (SJ???).

Im also all for the ministers having the most power, but the system lords being able to do day to day, its the ministers who give general orders, or orders to places lacking lords. I think we should also use normal SE4 not beta so that way everyone can look at the turn, that will help me for one with my decisions and make things sooooo mcuh faster.

[geoschmo]

Hey, SJ. What's the name of the empire? I just realized I don't know what it is. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[geoschmo]

Heh, something else noone has asked for would be a position as a member of the press. We have a newspaper room in the other forum. Perhaps it would be good to have a reporter or two to post on current events, do interviews with important empire figures, etc. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Spoo]

What's the name of the empire?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think that should be one of the first things the senate votes on.

[Captain Kwok]

Several things:

I do not want it to be a human empire - ugh!

Does every minister recieve a forum (office) for discussions?

[David E. Gervais]

SJ, your new badge order is in.. Get it over at the 'Avatar' thread!

Cheers!

[Suicide Junkie]

Signups:
#1: Geo. (General/Colony Ship Captain)
#2: Arkcon. (Science Minister)
#3: Matryx (General)
#4: Dead meat (Defense Minister)
#5: LazarusLong (Colonization Minister)
#6: TerranC (R&D Minister)
#7: Lemmy (General/Simulation Minister)
#8: Tesco Samoa (General)
#9: Dan C (Transportation Minister)
#10: Skulky (Construction Minister)
#11: Askan Nightbringer (Senator)
#12: Sabaoth (System Lord/Local Governor)
#13: Krsqk (Finance Minister)
#14: Ragnarok (Political Minister/Ambassador)
#15: Puke (Local Governor)
#16: Captain Kwok (Nomenclature Minister)
#17: Will (Senator)
#18: Spoo (Local Governor)
#19: Ruatha (System Lord/Local Governor)
#20: Imperator Fyron (Minister -Industry/Economic?)

Minister jobs:
(Homeworlds Taken) Individual planets: small ones seem popular with RPers and those with little time to spend in the spotlight. Manages ships in orbit.
- System lords: Rules all planets in a system that have no individual ministers. Manages ships making intra-system journeys.
(Taken) Political: One overall, or possibly one Minister for each race as an Ambassador.
(Taken) Finance: Watches over the budget and expenditures.
(Taken) Defense: Manages the overall inter-system distribution of warships.
- Industry: Manages resource generation, and general facility construction. Negotiates with locals to build what facilities are required.
(Taken) Transportation: Manages the overall non-military shipping and travel arrangements.
(Taken) Colonization: Organizes colonization efforts.
Covered by Transportation if nobody claims the job.
(Taken) Science: Manages research projects.
(Taken) R&D: Designs ships.
- Covert Ops: Manages intel once researched.
(Taken) Construction: Decides locations to build at, and negotiates with local ministers.
(Taken) Minister of Nomenclature: Names and Renames planets, ships, Design Classes.

[ December 19, 2002, 19:00: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[Dan C.]

Originally posted by Spoo:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What's the name of the empire?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think that should be one of the first things the senate votes on.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wouldn't that be the job of the naming minister to present a list? In fact I am a bit disappointed that he has not suggested new names for everything, least of which is "naming minister".

What I would like to know is what race we are. Any ETA for some sort of organizational start? I think SJ was setting up a forum elsewhere, how is progess on that?

[Ragnarok]

The forum is already set up.
http://www.invirtuo.cc/se4/index.php
Voting on issues have already begun.

[Suicide Junkie]

Sorry, I posted that before, but it got pushed down aways in the thread without getting bumped back up.

[Skulky]

SJ, guess you either didn't see this or disregarded it I'll take on the job of economic minister for now as well.

I'm in favor of a few dummy AI empires being created to allow people to revolt (they will be given a new forum, and their holdings will be transfered to the new AI).

I think we shoudl also set up a judicial branch too (only supreme court). And an executive would be good we can have elections every 40 turns or so, 80 turn limit.

Im also all for the ministers having the most power, but the system lords being able to do day to day, its the ministers who give general orders, or orders to places lacking lords.

With normal SE4, not beta, everyone can look at the turn. That will help all of us make decisions. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">on second thought it seems like Fyron has taken this job, o well.

[ December 20, 2002, 00:33: Message edited by: Skulky ]

[Skulky]

One really cool idea:

Add a Bank to the game.

You will need a banker/accountant.

The central bank (represented by another empire) will allow system lords to tax up to 3% directly on production in their system on min/org/rads. These totals will be kept track of by the accountant and then gifted over to the other empire every turn. Gov't can tax income of rich ppl (senators, ministers) up to 30%. Their income is paid in $ not in min/org/rads. Of course $ can be converted into min/org/rads.

System wealth, calculated by adding up construction dollars spent, resarch points generated (x 1.2) and intel points generated (x 1.3) and adding in any min/org/rad production (x .5). You will get a number, when taxed by the system lord at up to 6% it is converted to $ and deposited in their account. Gov't can levy an additional tax up to 12%. Wealth is calculated every .0 turn so 2400.0, 2401.0, etc and then used to charge taxes for the next fiscal year.

Their will be negative effects for high taxes. one reovlt point for combined taxes over 5% per year, 2 for over 10%, and 4 for over 15%. These points will accrue over time. You can reduce them through other ways of course, however if left unattended revolt will forment.

If the total reaches 30 pts of governemnt caused tax points then the system (or any individual planet therein) will be able to revolt, revolt isn't possible before then. If the combined totals cause it to reach 50 pts the system will revolt, taking a leader with it from one of its planets, maybe killing the system lord who knows.

This will require lots of record keeping and may become too tiresome. But i'd like your comments anyway.

EDIT: had to leave midway through. Unfinished buisness

[ December 20, 2002, 00:31: Message edited by: Skulky ]

[Ruatha]

I want to be a system Lord, if there's still any system left, or Senator on a homeworld.

Otherwise I'd like to captain a ship, if possible.

[ December 19, 2002, 12:58: Message edited by: Ruatha ]

[Suicide Junkie]

That sounds like a lot of work to simulate people's rebellions...

If the Finance wants to set up a complex tax system to decide how much money he will approve each governor and minister to spend, that's fine with me.

Rebellions would be roleplayed, where some local minister starts giving orders against senate decisions, or attempts to sabotage other ministers or something...

[TerranC]

SJ, What is this Seniority? Is there a hierarchy? If there is, who goes from highest to lowest?

[Quikngruvn]

Is it too late to join the fun? I wouldn't mind being a planetary governor or a system lord... something that (hopefully) won't be hampered too much by my tendency to lurk. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Quikngruvn

[Suicide Junkie]

SE4 by Committee Forum! (http://www.invirtuo.cc/se4/index.php)
There is now a Recruitment Office on that Board specifically for signing up and finding a place in the game.

The players who have been in the game longest (or survived the longest since their Last death) would have seniority.
This would only affect who has first dibs on a job when someone gets killed or promoted away.

Unless someone bumps him off, Geoschmo has seniority, followed by Arkcon.
Geo dosen't appear to want a big job, but he will surely get a good planet to command when he wants to settle down and retire from the colony ship piloting business. Assuming he dosen't run into a damaging warppoint or an enemy cruiser on his travels. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Quikngruvn:
It is not too late at all, though the major minister slots are all taken.
I believe all the homeworlds are accounted for, but you could be a system lord, and/or move to one of the colonies that are sure to spring up in the first few turns.

Signups:
#1: Geo. (General/Colony Ship Captain)
#2: Arkcon. (Science Minister)
#3: Matryx (General)
#4: Dead meat (Defense Minister)
#5: LazarusLong (Colonization Minister)
#6: TerranC (R&D Minister)
#7: Lemmy (General/Simulation Minister)
#8: Tesco Samoa (General)
#9: Dan C (Transportation Minister)
#10: Skulky (Construction Minister)
#11: Askan Nightbringer (Senator)
#12: Sabaoth (System Lord/Local Governor)
#13: Krsqk (Finance Minister)
#14: Ragnarok (Political Minister/Ambassador)
#15: Puke (Local Governor)
#16: Captain Kwok (Nomenclature Minister)
#17: Will (Senator)
#18: Spoo (Local Governor)
#19: Ruatha (System Lord/Local Governor)
#20: Imperator Fyron (Minister -Industry/Economic?)
#21: Quikngruvn (Local Governor/ System Lord)

[ December 20, 2002, 15:21: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[Quikngruvn]

Cool! I don't think I could devote enough time right now to playing a critical minister anyway, but maybe cause a little local havoc. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

BTW, there's no 'c' in my handle (for the sake of accuracy).

Quikngruvn

[Taera]

i belive im rather late, but still - can i get a position of a minor in R&D/Research offices, which will also mean i'll be the replacement for any of these (wherever i go) should they dissapear?

[Suicide Junkie]

Thanks, David.

To all the new players:
please sign up in the recruitment office, at The SE4 by Committee (http://www.invirtuo.cc/se4/index.php) Forums.

Sorry guys!

I think I'm going to drop out of the committee. It's a novel idea, but I don't have the time to keep up with it all. At this point, it's too confusing to follow what the heck is going on!<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, the great thing is, you don't have to keep track of everything: that's what the other ministers are for http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif .
Just respond to Posts that are made in your office, which should be fairly routine. And visit the active voting forum every now and then.

I can move you to a plain Senator if you like, or even put you down to an avatarless civilian.

[Lemmy]

Sorry guys!

I think I'm going to drop out of the committee. It's a novel idea, but I don't have the time to keep up with it all.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Unfortunately, the same goes for me to. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
With the holidays and the end of the semester coming for me, i don't think i'll have time, at least not until February.

[Suicide Junkie]

Not a problem. You can still sign up on the Committee Forum, and look in from time to time at it like a story.

[Captain Kwok]

Sorry guys!

I think I'm going to drop out of the committee. It's a novel idea, but I don't have the time to keep up with it all. At this point, it's too confusing to follow what the heck is going on!

Perhaps Taera can take my place.

[ December 20, 2002, 12:24: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]

[David E. Gervais]

SJ, THe 'Naming Minister's' badge has been posted in the 'Avatar' thread.

Cheers!

[Quikngruvn]

Speaking of stories, has anyone considered a story thread here for the Committee game? I would think the story potential will be tremendous....

Quikngruvn

[Suicide Junkie]

The best part is that the records are all autmatically kept, so you don't have to worry about taking notes!

If anyone wants to write up stories or news, I'd be happy to set you up in the Newspaper stand.

[Suicide Junkie]

One Last Note:

This thread is finished.
All further activity should be diverted to the official forum, at http://www.invirtuo.cc/se4/index.php

If you wish to sign up, visit the recruitment office, and make a post at the appropriate desk.