Do we need larger mines than small?

[Ruatha]

A small mine seems to kill a ship as good as a large mine.
Isn't two small mines better tha one medium or large.
I mean if you don't sweep they'll both hit. If you sweep, the more mines the more chance one won't be swept and therefore hit.

So, is there any use for medium and large mines?

[Suicide Junkie]

Medium and large pack more punch in the same unit limit.

Small mines are cheaper for when you expect them to be swept.

[Dralasite]

Sure, 100 large mines are better than 100 small mines.

[Fyron]

But, they are just as easily swept away. And, the 100 large mines cost a lot more than 100 small mines. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[geoschmo]

The only time a small mine is better than a big one, is if the enemy can't sweep 100 mines, but they can sweep some mines and you don't have time to get enough large mines built to get past his sweeping capability. So unless the enemy is bearing down on your planet two turns away and you need something, anything, up right now, go with bigger mines. Any time you are building defenses in preparation for an assault that is not in the actual act of happening right now, go with big mines if you are going to use mines at all.

[Fyron]

I think small, 1 warhead mines are better. Either the enemy sweeps 100 mines, or not. Only very rarely have I seen non-newbie fleets capable of sweeping mines able to sweep fewer than 100 mines (except when their sweepers all get destroyed, but that is another issue). If they are going to be swept, why not minimize the resources and time spent building them?

[Phoenix-D]

If they are going to be swept, why not minimize the resources and time spent building them?"

It is, IMO a matter of having enough mines to overwhelm any sweepers they bring AND enough firepower to kill them off. In the unmodded game a single 300 point warhead will probably kill off most smaller ships; larger ones might need two. If the enemy is using armor still, you need more firepower.

In mods where armor is an affective choice, you need lots more firepower.

Phoenix-D

[Dralasite]

But, they are just as easily swept away. And, the 100 large mines cost a lot more than 100 small mines <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I know, I never research or build more than small mines, but I was just pointing out that there are situations where a bigger mine could be better. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Slick]

In general I agree, but I like throwing in a few turn's worth of small-1-warhead mines followed by a turn of "Big Berthas", then repeat. This way, if (for whatever reason) not all the mines are swept, the "Big Berthas" thrown in here and there will do significant damage.

BTW, if you are just interested in overloading the minesweepers, you can build really cheap small mines with NO warheads, then sprinkle in some with warheads occasionally. You really can build a lot of zero-warhead mines in 1 turn. Of course they can't knock out a half-dead mosquito if they hit...

Slick.

[Fyron]

Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
If they are going to be swept, why not minimize the resources and time spent building them?"

It is, IMO a matter of having enough mines to overwhelm any sweepers they bring AND enough firepower to kill them off. In the unmodded game a single 300 point warhead will probably kill off most smaller ships; larger ones might need two. If the enemy is using armor still, you need more firepower.

In mods where armor is an affective choice, you need lots more firepower.

Phoenix-D<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">By the time they get big ships, they should have no problem sweeping 100 mines at all. Mines are only useful in the early game, when small ships are used. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[geoschmo]

Ok, how is this for a one sentance rule?

LAW OF MINES:
Use the biggest mines you can afford that will be built by the time you need them.

A mine that is not done when you need it is useless. It's not even a mine, it's a construction queue entry. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif And if resources are scare there is probably something better you could spend them on than mines to begin with. But if you have the resources to spare and the time to build them, there is no reason not to build the biggest mine you can and cram it full of warheads. That way if any do get through the sweepers they will do the maximum damage possible.

Geoschmo

[ January 11, 2003, 02:15: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

[Fyron]

But once the game progresses, mines become next to useless because sweeping is cheap and easy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
But once the game progresses, mines become next to useless because sweeping is cheap and easy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If the question asked had been "Do we need mines?" then your statement would be relevant Fyron. But the question asked has to assume that mines are being used. And if mines are being used then you should use the biggest mines you can afford that will be built by the time you need them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Geoschmo

[Fyron]

Yeah, and all those resources you spent on mines are wasted. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif My cheap mines waste less. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[atari_eric]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Yeah, and all those resources you spent on mines are wasted. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif My cheap mines waste less. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">One could argue those saved resources do you no good if you are dead. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[geoschmo]

Not to mention that if you don't need mines, any amount spent on them is a waste. While if you need them, not spending enough to do the job right is a bad thing. I am not going to argue that mines are neccesary Fyron. All I am saying is that if you decide they are, don't hedge your bet by doing them halfway. Do them right, or don't do them. UNLESS you need them and the the critcal issue is a lack of time or lack of resources. If that is the case do smaller mines, or somehting else entirely. That's why I say use the biggest mines you can afford that will be built by the time you need them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Geoschmo

[Fyron]

More often than not, large mines end up being a waste. Small mines are sufficient to take out fleets with no sweepers. Fleets with sweepers sweep large mines as well as small ones.

[geoschmo]

Fyron, when are you going to bed? Cause I am gonna get the Last word on this one. Don't make me lock the thread to do it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[Fyron]

What a petty SOB... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif j/k

[Katchoo]

I'll be brave and jump into the topic here... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

For the most part I love using mines, and the bigger the better. Unfortunately larger mines do tend to take a snails age to build up in any worthwhile numbers, so it's always best to have decent protection in your system(s) already before dedicating any time to build the big boys.

I've discovered though that the Mod you use can change your tactics quickly. Atrocities' Star Trek Mod allows for Space Yard Ships to build ships & units at a crazy fast pace. In a case like this you can build large mines like a mad man and not make any huges dents in your construction que.

So to sumarize, mines are good, but mimes are bad http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif