OPEN SOURCE SEIV Grass Roots Movement [Archive]

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tesco samoa

January 27th, 2003, 01:46 AM

I would like to start a grass roots movement here for SEIV to be open sourced... when Arron decides that it is time to move on to SEV....

One reason for this is that I would personaly like to fix the combat system...

And make it work.... As I am sick of one sided battles... It is slowly and surely making me want to stop playing the game, as it is no fun to win a one sided victory or to lose one.

Now I really do not know how to approach Arron on this... so I am looking for suggestions and a group of people who are willing to push for this as well....

I think it will extend the life of the product a few extra years as we can really mod the game

couslee

January 27th, 2003, 01:52 AM

Anopen source would be good for those that know programming. i don't, so it's not really an issue for me but i like the idea. problem is, if they open it, and every jumps in to fix this and fix that, is that same customer base going to buy SEV? or are they going to play the game they tweaked. I can understan both sides of the issue of open sourcing old games. And talk about a MP nightmare. that part would be gone. (tho i am sure others will disagree) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Fyron

January 27th, 2003, 02:09 AM

It would not be open sourced immediately when SE5 is released. And besides, SE5 will be fundamentally different that SE4, just like SE4 was different from SE3. You couldn't really take the source code of SE3 and build SE4 out of it. You would not be able to do the same with making SE5 out of SE4.

Well... not without rewriting everything, and essentially writing a new game from scratch. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ January 27, 2003, 00:10: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Instar

January 27th, 2003, 02:39 AM

I do not think that MM will open source SEIV. He hasn't open sourced SEI, and I think he'd open source the earlier Versions first.

tesco samoa

January 27th, 2003, 02:46 AM

Now I really do not know how to approach Arron on this... so I am looking for suggestions and a group of people who are willing to push for this as well....

SEIV has a solid group of people here who like to play with the game...

These core players will also purchase sev... and play it...

But SEIV needs to be finished... If it is to survive...

It is a great game... And this would be a great way to extend the life of the game and get additional people involved in the SE world... As this will increase its popularity....

Desdinova

January 27th, 2003, 03:11 AM

semi off topic. i would like to learn programming for video games. i know there are several books out there dealing with this, and i have bought several of them, but they dont use games that i like playing (most use first person shooters or arcade type games and i want to see more on strategy). it would be nice to see how a game that i like is designed. if nothing else maybe a howto book can be made using the SE source code (in any of its generations I-IV). i know it would take a lot of time and effort to do something like this but i would be willing to pay for something like this.

[ January 27, 2003, 01:12: Message edited by: desdinova ]

Kamog

January 27th, 2003, 03:34 AM

Do you know what language Aaron uses to program his games?

Baron Munchausen

January 27th, 2003, 04:03 AM

Sorry folks. Aaron has quit his 'regular' job to work on games full time. He's not going to throw away his 'capital' in the form of source code. It would put a huge dent in the possible market for future Versions of SE precisely because people could just do what they want and wouldn't need to buy his product.

And, FYI, he uses Delphi. I'm not sure what Version he's on now. There seems to be a new one every year. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif I'm not sure he needs to upgrade every time, and personally I wouldn't upgrade every time.

PvK

January 27th, 2003, 05:34 AM

Instar

January 27th, 2003, 05:56 AM

desdinova:
If you want to learn game programming, learn C first. I would reccomend reading an easy C book (like C for dummies 1 and 2) and then possibly getting a C++ book (C++ for dummies is decent, but I wasnt as impressed as C for dummies)
I tried to jump right into advanced programming too quickly and I did not learn a thing. I got lost so quickly.
As for the dummies books, don't let the titles fool you! They are not overly made stupid, but they are easy to read and easy to understand. (I am a CompSci student, and I have a C++ book that costs twice as much but teaches so much less it seems)

Desdinova

January 27th, 2003, 06:05 AM

instar,
i will check into the for dummies books, i have actually used several of them for other items. most tend to be well writen from what i have read. i have two books on c++ also borlands c++. i am looking at trying to take some courses but my work schedule fluctuates, so hard to sign up for actually classes. may need to see about Online class. all i have managed to take so far is intro to structured programming and 1 other class. both a long time ago.

anyone know of any open source strategy games out there in c or c++ that i can look at for guidance/inspiration (something to make me go, see i can do something like this...see this is how to do it).

[ January 27, 2003, 04:10: Message edited by: desdinova ]

Suicide Junkie

January 27th, 2003, 06:13 AM

The one "one-sided battles" issue mentioned as a reason for wanting the source, can be modded out. Proportions greatly reduces this, and it could be done to a greater degree. Just divide down the amount of the to-hit modifiers in all ways - sensors, ECM, training, armor, culture, and racial abilities. And perhaps, increase the structure and shield strengths compared to damage amounts, and perhaps reduce the turn length, if you want more battles that don't end in complete destruction.Leaky shields and armor components will also help greatly in that regard.
Any ship which is hit will take at least some permanent damage, and with leaky armor, a ship can become crippled to uselessness long before it is actually destroyed.
Players who don't adjust their strategies in order to spread the damage around will be caught shooting at dead hulks while the enemies lay waste to their fleet.

PvK

January 27th, 2003, 06:30 AM

Yep SJ. What you call "leaky armor", I call "Armored Structure" - high-structure, low-cost components that don't have the "Armor - hit first" ability.

PvK

Lord Kodos

January 27th, 2003, 07:42 AM

I remember hearing somewhere that SEII and possibly SEIII where going to go freeware.

Captain Kwok

January 27th, 2003, 07:47 AM

I still don't know who this mysterious 'Arron' is that Tesco keeps referring to... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

I don't see him giving the code up, it is afterall, his means of support.

Will

January 27th, 2003, 08:17 AM

OT a little, desdinova, I would recommend simply using your current programming experience. Take a look at a game, any game, from something as simple as tic-tac-toe up to things like pac-man or tetris, up to a game as complex as SEIV, and just think of what you would need to do to program it. That would really be the best way to learn game programming, IMHO, just doing it. If those books are the kind I think they are (a la "Tricks of the Windows Game Programming Gurus"), you should be able to pick up the graphical side. As a personal exercise (and partially as a result of boredom), I started writing out the basic data structures needed for a SEIV-like game. Almost like SEIV, except I tweaked it a little, so there's no limits on total players, ships, units, systems, etc. and it's on a coordinate system. Just doing that for a few days really helped solidify my knowledge in areas of C++ that I had only begun to learn a few weeks before (mainly, I wrote a templated double-linked list from scratch, then debugged it many many times).

So, just pick a simple game, take a little time to outline what you would need to do to make the game (ie, card game, make the deck, think of ways to code-ify the rules, etc), then start. Then just keep on increasing the complexity, you'll learn more and more each time.

(BTW, please don't ask for the code I wrote, it is vastly incomplete, and I would like to finish it as an exercise before handing it out).

Graeme Dice

January 27th, 2003, 08:18 AM

Another good way that I've seen battles made more even is to start the accuracy at 50%, then have it decrease by 3% per square. You then make your sensors twice as effective as ECM so that you can get a maximum to-hit of 99% at a range of 1 only if you have a 50% advantage in either sensors or aggressiveness. It works very well, and makes it so it's not so easy to get unhittable ships.

Rambie

January 27th, 2003, 09:20 AM

Originally posted by tesco samoa:

One reason for this is that I would personaly like to fix the combat system... And make it work.... As I am sick of one sided battles... Well, if memory serves, MM was going to make a setting where SE4 could be set to use external combat modules. If that was done you could make a Ground Combat module without having to get the SE4 source code.

PvK

January 27th, 2003, 11:39 AM

Originally posted by Rambie:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by tesco samoa:

One reason for this is that I would personaly like to fix the combat system... And make it work.... As I am sick of one sided battles... Well, if memory serves, MM was going to make a setting where SE4 could be set to use external combat modules. If that was done you could make a Ground Combat module without having to get the SE4 source code.<hr /></blockquote>Really? I know I've suggested it, but I didn't think it was ever accepted for SE4.

PvK

Desdinova

January 27th, 2003, 10:43 PM

Will,
thanks for the info. you are correct some of the books are the tricks of the gaming gurus plus teach yourself game programming in 21 days (just picked it up) and a few others. the tygpi21d looks like it will help me more than the gurus books. you are correct though the only way to do it is practice.

Hank

January 27th, 2003, 11:42 PM

Im a programmer, but not a game programmer. Here is one site that I read to keep up on game development:

Gamasutra (http://gamasutra.com/)

Instar

January 27th, 2003, 11:58 PM

another thing for beginning game programming is trying to do too much with little experience. I don't think I could do a game on the scope of SEIV or Doom, without some more knowledge of things like DirectX and more knowledge of programming in general. (BTW, if youre going to be a CompSci major in college, get used to classes with only 1 or 2 girls... ugh, and Ive heard that back in the 80's it was actually 50% girls at one point)

Shyrka

January 28th, 2003, 02:36 AM

Originally posted by Baron Munchausen:
And, FYI, he uses Delphi.Really? Wow, this is a surprise for me. It is my favourite language!
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Will

January 28th, 2003, 06:23 AM

Originally posted by Instar:
(BTW, if youre going to be a CompSci major in college, get used to classes with only 1 or 2 girls... ugh, and Ive heard that back in the 80's it was actually 50% girls at one point)You're just going to the wrong school. Last semester my class of 30 had 10 female students. This semester, my class of about 90 has about 40 female students. Plus, a lot of my other, non-CSci classes are skewed the other way (4 males in a class of 18). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Phoenix-D

January 28th, 2003, 07:11 AM

Plus, a lot of my other, non-CSci classes are skewed the other way (4 males in a class of 18). "

That's not skewed. Now, my sign classes- THOSE are scewed. (first was 2 out of 30, second 3 out of 30, this one is 4 out of 35)

Phoenix-D

Instar

January 28th, 2003, 07:56 AM

Yeah, here in the HC the girls outnumber the men by quite a margin... its nice
oh yeah
nice
heh
(no offense to any females!)

Kamog

January 28th, 2003, 08:15 AM

When I went to school, maybe there were 3 girls out of about 300 students in the entire department. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif