Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available [Archive] - Page 2

oleg

March 18th, 2003, 08:58 PM

Originally posted by klausD:
sorry to post such a naiv question, but please can anybody tell what the mod "foundation" is?

danke und tsch��
KlausDJLS is not entirely correct. IMHO, Foundations is a mysterious mod PvK is working for almost three years. At the moment of SEIV:Gold release, Peter decided to unleash some insignificant pieces in the form of Proportions http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif We can only fantasize how The Whole Thing should reallly look like http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Aloofi

March 18th, 2003, 09:00 PM

Originally posted by JLS:
Aloofi,

Are you at war with anyone, currently in your Proportions game?Nope, so far it have been a peaceful game. The only war going on is between the Drushocka and the Phong, and since I have a T&R treaty with both, the Drushs have been asking me to breake my treaty with the Phong, to wish I have replied "no" several times (Its cheating to not reply http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ) the Drushs have become "murderous" towards me, so I expect war to be declared tonight. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

By the way it seems like the AI doesn't retrofit its ships, everybody is way ahead of me in research and have more ships than me, but my ships are far better technologically.

oleg

March 18th, 2003, 09:08 PM

Originally posted by Aloofi:

By the way it seems like the AI doesn't retrofit its ships, everybody is way ahead of me in research and have more ships than me, but my ships are far better technologically.[/QB]Ai does retrofit ships, but to do so, it must pull ships from a fleet. Usually it occurs after a battle, when fleet breaks up to damaged and undamaged ships. The change in AI status can also trigger fleet composition. But yes, if nothing drastically occur, AI keeps ships in existing fleets and do not refit them.

[ March 18, 2003, 19:12: Message edited by: oleg ]

JLS

March 18th, 2003, 09:11 PM

Aloofi,
I was just trying to put together a reason why that Partnered AI is hanging out over your Planet. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

I guess he just likes the view http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Better look out, Olegs Druskies are mean... Real Mean. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ March 18, 2003, 19:14: Message edited by: JLS ]

Aloofi

March 18th, 2003, 09:12 PM

The Drushocka are losing to the Phong, I thought the Drushockas was suppose to be the baddest AI in town.
Who's the evilest empire in Proportions?
And who's AI is the most efficient?

Aloofi

March 18th, 2003, 09:15 PM

Originally posted by JLS:
Aloofi,
I was just trying to put together a reason why that Partnered AI is hanging out over your Planet. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

I guess he just likes the view http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif Yeah, I thought first it was my Ship Training Facility......
I guess is just the lack of wars.

Would the Toltayan AI accept to join me in war against the Drushs if I ask them or will they say no and our relation deteriorate?

JLS

March 18th, 2003, 09:17 PM

Originally posted by Aloofi:

The Drushocka are losing to the Phong, I thought the Drushockas was suppose to be the baddest AI in town.
Xi Chung-HIVE are the baddest AI in town.
~

And who's AI is the most efficient?
Well the Abbidon; Of coarse http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[ March 18, 2003, 19:22: Message edited by: JLS ]

JLS

March 18th, 2003, 09:21 PM

Actually the Rock Terrans may be the most efficient. They are Certainly very Prolific.

JLS

March 18th, 2003, 09:25 PM

Originally posted by Aloofi:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JLS:
Aloofi,
I was just trying to put together a reason why that Partnered AI is hanging out over your Planet. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

I guess he just likes the view http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif Yeah, I thought first it was my Ship Training Facility......
I guess is just the lack of wars.

Would the Toltayan AI accept to join me in war against the Drushs if I ask them or will they say no and our relation deteriorate?<hr /></blockquote>Score Percent To Accept Declare war on empire := 150
Will Accept From Friend Declare war on empire := True
Will Accept From Enemy Declare war on empire := True
Score Percent To Accept Support us against another empire := 150
Will Accept From Friend Support us against another empire := True
Will Accept From Enemy Support us against another empire := False

May need to be 50% ahead of him in score http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Aloofi

March 18th, 2003, 09:26 PM

Originally posted by JLS:
[QB]Xi Cung-HIVE are the baddest AI in town.Didn't know that. I always leave the Hive out cause i don't like their shipset. I don't like organic looking shipsets, that's why I changed the Drush shipset for the UFAs http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif , but I kept the flag and the population picture.

Well the Abbidon; Of coarse http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif What?
Are you sure?
I think they are in my current game. I'm playing large quadrant with 16 races.

What About the Krill?
Will they break my partnership with them and attack my weakest system just one system away from their Homeworld?
No wait, don't tell me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

The best thing of being a newbee is that the AI still surprises me with unexpected behaivor.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Aloofi

March 18th, 2003, 09:29 PM

Originally posted by JLS:
May need to be 50% ahead of him in score http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Where exactly are these files?
I'm thinking of changing the 150 to 100.
What do you think?

oleg

March 18th, 2003, 09:30 PM

Ducks use my AI, so I refuse to believe they are losing http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Wait a little and you will see them fighting back ! They are not baddest AI for sure. Xi'Chung is a vermin. Also check my latest Krill AI.

Aloofi

March 18th, 2003, 09:44 PM

Originally posted by oleg:
Ducks use my AI, so I refuse to believe they are losing http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Wait a little and you will see them fighting back ! .One of the reason they are losing its colonization. They are way behind the Phong.
The other reason is that they claimed one of my systems http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif , and sent a massive 30 ship fleet to scare me or something, but they ran out of supply and now are moving one sector per turn to get back to their nearest supply base, while in the meantime the Phong have glassed one of their system almost unoppossed.
And the Phong have grown so fearless that now they have a minelayer mining a Warp point on the Drush side, while the the Drush keep sending ships one by one to the minefield. I suppose those ships are minesweepers.
Gotta tell you, your Drushs are really in trouble, especially if tonight they declare war on me and start fighting a war in 2 fronts http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Its there any chance that the Drushs might convince their only ally, the Jraenar, to join their war against the Phong?

oleg

March 18th, 2003, 09:59 PM

Originally posted by Aloofi:
One of the reason they are losing its colonization. They are way behind the Phong.
[/QB]Damn, damn, damn.. This is another manifistaion of horrible AI bug that affects Proportions' AI http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
here is a link to its desription:
http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=008385#000000
I made my AIs very aggressive in expansion/population transfer. But it backfired because of SEIV bug http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif Next time, either play simultaneous turns or take control of AI races for every other 10 turns.

JLS

March 18th, 2003, 10:14 PM

Oleg,
I haven�t played out your Krill yet, But your Drushskies are VERY tough!!! As is!!!

Crystals are tough also; after they get there Point Defense Weapons on board!!!

Keep in Mind in Aloofi's game they may have a bad start!

[ March 18, 2003, 20:17: Message edited by: JLS ]

oleg

March 18th, 2003, 10:30 PM

Thanks, John http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

But I am still very mighty pissed of by this "population transfer" bug. Up to the point I play "turn based" SE no more. What is the point if your latest and best ever AI becomes a laughing stck of a galaxy with all loaded colony ships sitting arond homeworld for years and years !???

JLS

March 18th, 2003, 10:43 PM

I NEVER play se4 (turn based)� http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Reminds me of my old board game days http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

oleg

March 18th, 2003, 11:00 PM

Me too, but as a cortesy to vast majority of SE players I'm obliged to check AI in "turn-based" mode. This is how I get to this bug I never knew about.. !

JLS

March 18th, 2003, 11:02 PM

Gotcha http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
Makes good sense, Oleg http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ March 18, 2003, 21:15: Message edited by: JLS ]

Aloofi

March 18th, 2003, 11:23 PM

Sorry, but was the diference between Turn Based and simultaneous?
Is it there tactical combat in simultaneous?
Is it better?
Is the AI better?

I love turn based, so i haven't tried the simultaneous. Sounds like RTS... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Fyron

March 18th, 2003, 11:26 PM

I love turn based, so i haven't tried the simultaneous. Sounds like RTS... There is absolutely no correlation between simultaneous and RTS. 0% exactly, in fact. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Aloofi

March 18th, 2003, 11:29 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
There is absolutely no correlation between simultaneous and RTS. 0% exactly, in fact. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Fyron, I love your short uninformative Posts, but i would like more info in why is so, please. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Fyron

March 18th, 2003, 11:33 PM

How could they be similar? RTS is fast-paced, simul. is just the same pace as seq. (actually, maybe a little slower). There is no possibility of click-festing in simul as in RTS.

The only difference between sequential and simultaneous move in SE4 is that you don't have the unbalancing effects of player order making a huge difference in simul. like it does in seq. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Well... you don't get to thoroughly abuse the AI's inability to deal with tactical combat like human players can in simul., which is a good thing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

PvK

March 19th, 2003, 12:37 AM

Originally posted by JLS:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by klausD:
sorry to post such a naiv question, but please can anybody tell what the mod "foundation" is?

danke und tsch��
KlausDI believe it was the Foundation for PvK's Proportions, either way, Proportions is a Diamond from any and all consequence.

John
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <hr /></blockquote>Yeah, it ended up being the foundation for Proportions. It was intended to do a lot more, but I didn't finish it in time for the Gold CD, so I just included the basic scale changes as Proportions mod, and since then have just tweaked and expanded Proportions, rather than going back to finish Foundations. The name similarity to Azimov's Foundation is unintended. The mod name refers to the need to build up fundamental prerequisites before cranking out fantastic abilities. This is most visible in Proportions with the need to do a lot of long-term building and transport in order to develop powerful colonies. The main missing parts that Proportions still doesn't have and that would take a daunting amount of work to complete properly are: the re-worked tech tree with more long-term decisions; the more drawn out weapons techs that vary from wimpy to devastating [edit: also for non-weapon techs, such as propulsion, defenses, etc, though there is a lot of this in Proportions already]; and the various racial tech areas which allow more different types of empires.

PvK

[ March 18, 2003, 22:39: Message edited by: PvK ]

Aloofi

March 21st, 2003, 04:20 PM

Oleg's Druscs have 2 colony ship and 2 starliners sitting on their homeworld...... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

And since the Druscs are losing their war against the Phong, now they have decided to declare war on the Amonkrie... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif . I guess their leadership believe that "more enemies more honor" stuff.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

On the druscs defense, I must point that they had a very disfavorable start. No good planets on their system, and neighbors too close. On the other hand, they tend to claim system too far from their homeworld and with systems that have not yet been coloniazed in between.

[EDIT] I'm not sure who's AI declared war. It might have been the Amonkrie.

[ March 21, 2003, 14:22: Message edited by: Aloofi ]

oleg

March 21st, 2003, 04:33 PM

Originally posted by Aloofi:
Oleg's Druscs have 2 colony ship and 2 starliners sitting on their homeworld...... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Yes, this is the manifestation of the ugly SE bug in classical turn games. It is the major reason I play simultaneous turns only !

klausD

March 21st, 2003, 05:45 PM

pvk

Sounds very interesting. Maybe you take some time to do this project? I mean you have done already a big part - proportions.

Its not that sure that SEV will rock (you know because of a possible RT-engine) so we will probably have to stay longer with good old SEIV http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

if you dont want to do it, well, proportions is also excellent as such.
Klaus

Aloofi

March 21st, 2003, 09:36 PM

Originally posted by oleg:
Yes, this is the manifestation of the ugly SE bug in classical turn games. It is the major reason I play simultaneous turns only !Yeah, but there is no tactical combat in simultaneous, right?

Is it there any way to have combat in simultaneous?

Fyron

March 21st, 2003, 10:06 PM

Its not that sure that SEV will rock (you know because of a possible RT-engine) Real time combat will do nothing but make SE5 better. It will be nothing like Starcraft, as that is obviously where your confusion is. A simple pause feature and the ability to do anything while paused (except watch ships move and fire, just look and issue orders) removes any possible problems with RT combat.

klausD

March 21st, 2003, 10:27 PM

Real time combat will do nothing but make SE5 better. It will be nothing like Starcraft, as that is obviously where your confusion is. A simple pause feature and the ability to do anything while paused (except watch ships move and fire, just look and issue orders) removes any possible problems with RT combat.
Maybe you like realtime. I do not. (if pauseable or not)
To claim that SEV will be better with a RT modus is a pure assumption and a matter of taste. I (and I am sure many old vets of the SE series too) can live without it.

tsch��
Klaus

PsychoTechFreak

March 22nd, 2003, 01:59 AM

Originally posted by Aloofi:

Is it there any way to have combat in simultaneous?Strategic combat, sure. But I guess you think of tactical - no way. But strategic combat in your solo games helps in many ways:
-You prevent yourself from using the tactical advantage, the AI hasn't
-It's training for PBW combats
-Once your fleet and ship strategies are set up, it saves a lot of time

But on medium/high AI bonus I would prefer tactical sometimes also.

oleg

March 22nd, 2003, 03:22 AM

Originally posted by Aloofi:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by oleg:
Yes, this is the manifestation of the ugly SE bug in classical turn games. It is the major reason I play simultaneous turns only !Yeah, but there is no tactical combat in simultaneous, right?

Is it there any way to have combat in simultaneous?<hr /></blockquote>I agree, tactical combat may be fun. Then I suggest to take AIs to your control every other 10 turns. Switch all ministers ON and let SE process one turn. Turn the race back to computer like it was before. It will temporaly clear this bug and greatly help AI !

PvK

March 22nd, 2003, 03:35 AM

Thanks Klaus!

It depends on how much time and interest I have in future. Sometimes it helps to take a break for a while... then the enthusiasm to mod SE4 slowly re-accumulates. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I have some ideas about what to do about the ever-frustrating AI, too, but like all modding AI in SE4, it'd be very time-consuming to actually implement.

PvK

Originally posted by klausD:
pvk

Sounds very interesting. Maybe you take some time to do this project? I mean you have done already a big part - proportions.

[...]

if you dont want to do it, well, proportions is also excellent as such.
Klaus

oleg

March 23rd, 2003, 11:53 PM

Not sure if it was mentioned before, but ALL colony ships use colonyshipLarge as a primary bitmap. Hence, once I added this extra shup picture, it replaced all colony ships ! I think the idea is to use colonyshipLarge for "fast colony ships" only. Regular colony should still use colonyship as a primary picture !

PvK

March 24th, 2003, 04:42 AM

My idea was all colony ships in Proportions should use "colony ship large", because there are no small colony ships in Proportions. Many shipsets offer colony ships that look like they may really be 300kT. At 1800kT, standard Proportions colony ships should most likely use the biggest-looking image available. If I or someone else added a really high-tech colony ship that was a lot smaller, it might use the ordinary colony ship image.

PvK

oleg

March 24th, 2003, 04:03 PM

Originally posted by steveh11:
my[/i] speed, or (preferably) turn it off.
Steve.SE IV tactical combat is interesting, but a lot should be said in praise of strategic combat too. It involves a lot of strategic thinkig how you design you ships, what strategy to be used, fleet composition and formations, etc. Overall I feel like a comander-in-chief when I prepare for strategig battles !

oleg

March 24th, 2003, 04:05 PM

Originally posted by PvK:
My idea was all colony ships in Proportions should use "colony ship large", because there are no small colony ships in Proportions. Many shipsets offer colony ships that look like they may really be 300kT. At 1800kT, standard Proportions colony ships should most likely use the biggest-looking image available. If I or someone else added a really high-tech colony ship that was a lot smaller, it might use the ordinary colony ship image.

PvKDuh.. I made good colonyshipLarge pictures for Pequeninos and Manticore shipsets but I quess I will not include them in the reliase - I like ordinary colonyship pictures too ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Aloofi

March 24th, 2003, 06:55 PM

My latest change to Proportions:

Missile speed to 30! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Now the Capital Ship Missiles go straight for the target in one turn, as far as their range can go.

I ran a test with the Phong's Missile Destroyers.
I saw several improvements. With CSM III, range of 12, my PDC were able of destroy only half the number of missiles than with the original spped of 5. The problem is that the missile took 3 turns to fly the distance of 12, and allowed my PDCs to fire at least twice on every missile volley. With maximus fly speed the missile goes straight for the target in one turn, effectively cutting by half the chances of being shot down by PDCs.

oleg

March 24th, 2003, 07:19 PM

But it may be TOO good ! Now everybody will use CSM instead of beams. I agree missiles need some boost, but keep it reasonable. Actually, I think it would be better to increase "seaker damage resistance" instead of speed. Make it two PDC shots per missile instead of one.

PvK

March 24th, 2003, 11:10 PM

Missiles seem quite effective to me when heavies are combined with light missile systems, not to mention when combined with drones and fighters.

No?

PvK

Fyron

March 24th, 2003, 11:16 PM

Originally posted by klausD:
Maybe you like realtime. I do not. (if pauseable or not)
To claim that SEV will be better with a RT modus is a pure assumption and a matter of taste. I (and I am sure many old vets of the SE series too) can live without it.It isn't a matter of taste, it is a matter of making the game better.

steveh11

March 25th, 2003, 02:14 AM

Originally posted by klausD:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Real time combat will do nothing but make SE5 better. It will be nothing like Starcraft, as that is obviously where your confusion is. A simple pause feature and the ability to do anything while paused (except watch ships move and fire, just look and issue orders) removes any possible problems with RT combat.
Maybe you like realtime. I do not. (if pauseable or not)
To claim that SEV will be better with a RT modus is a pure assumption and a matter of taste. I (and I am sure many old vets of the SE series too) can live without it.

tsch��
Klaus<hr /></blockquote>Oh God, you are joking aren't you? Surely Shrapnel won't do this? So-called realtime combat in MOO3 is my biggest gripe, and I don't see the justification for it - it's just eye-candy, and gets in the way.

As you can tell, I play SEIV in non-simultaneous tactical combat mode, exclusively. The only way you'll get me playing a RTS-style game is if I can pause and slow it down to my speed, or (preferably) turn it off.
Steve.

Aloofi

March 25th, 2003, 03:29 PM

Originally posted by oleg:
Actually, I think it would be better to increase "seaker damage resistance" instead of speed. Make it two PDC shots per missile instead of one.And you would be acomplishing exactly the same, one shot per missile..... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

With speed 30 they behave like real missiles now. There no more outrunning the missile. If you are far away you might still get out of range, cause the missile still behaving like a cruise missile, launching in one turn and flying to target in the next, so if you see missiles launched and you dont have PDCs, make a run for your life.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Also, this uber-missile benefits mostly the AI, cause we humans know that pound by pound missiles are not worth the effort. They weight too much and reload too slow. Even the lowly Meson BLaster is a better weapon.

Suicide Junkie

March 25th, 2003, 04:23 PM

It isn't a matter of taste, it is a matter of making the game better.It will certainly make strategic combat better.
Tactical combat would be hit hard, if not removed altogether.

Although, if instead of jsut play and pause, you had a "step forward" button that would leave the game paused, but move it a head some minimum amount of time, it would effectively become turn based in tactical... Seeing the missiles and torpedoes and beams paused in mid-flight would be pretty cool too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Fyron

March 25th, 2003, 08:09 PM

SJ: That solution works too, and just goes to prove that real-time can be not bad at all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

PvK

March 26th, 2003, 12:20 AM

Originally posted by Aloofi:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by oleg:
Actually, I think it would be better to increase "seaker damage resistance" instead of speed. Make it two PDC shots per missile instead of one.And you would be acomplishing exactly the same, one shot per missile..... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
<hr /></blockquote>
Increasing the seeker damage resistance wouldn't be exactly the same effect, though it would be similar in some ways.

I would tend to recommend taking advantage of the new ability in 1.84 for giving seekers a to-hit penalty. Unfortunately, it is applied in Settings.txt to all seekers, rather than being assignable per weapon model.

With speed 30 they behave like real missiles now. There no more outrunning the missile. If you are far away you might still get out of range, cause the missile still behaving like a cruise missile, launching in one turn and flying to target in the next, so if you see missiles launched and you dont have PDCs, make a run for your life.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Also, this uber-missile benefits mostly the AI, cause we humans know that pound by pound missiles are not worth the effort. They weight too much and reload too slow. Even the lowly Meson BLaster is a better weapon.Hmm, I tend to think both Meson BLasters and missiles are both effective weapons in Proportions fleet battles, with different strengths and weaknesses, of course. It's true that just heavy missiles will tend to be intercepted by heavy PD, but if you include rapid-firing light missiles, and/or swarms of cheap ships, it can become quite hard to shoot them all down. If the PD also have fighters and drones to deal with, suddenly even large amounts of PD can be overwhelmed.

PvK

oleg

March 26th, 2003, 12:55 PM

I never been able to use Light Missiles effectively. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif May be I just not good in ship design http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

PvK

March 27th, 2003, 09:37 AM

They need to be combined with the heavies. I've beaten technologically superior (bonus'ed) beam-armed AI Druschockans who had been wiping out my direct-fire ships, by engaging them with greater numbers of mostly small cheap missile ships with a mix of missile types.

PvK

klausD

April 21st, 2003, 01:08 AM

Could somebody please tell me if it is possible to develope a race which can only invest in its own unique tech structures and not in the normal standard SE4 tech structure?

This would be fine, because if this is possible a race could be totally different from others. (other ships sizes, different facility structures and builtup strategy - eg hives instead of cities, other units types than the others etc.)

thanks for the info
tsch��
KlausD

oleg

April 21st, 2003, 01:36 AM

you will have to do something like Pirates or Nomads in Pirates&Nomads mod or Space Monsters in Devnull mod. Basically you make all normal tech a new racial trait and give it to all races except few unique races !

Suicide Junkie

April 21st, 2003, 03:53 AM

Precisely.

1) Copy the applicable components and adjust their abilities as desired. Add a racial tech requirement.
2) Delete the original components.
3) Set the new racial trait to start at tech level 1, so the critical components like bridges and spaceports are available right from turn #1.

Note that this will invalidate all of your EMP files, and the AIs will have to be modded to pick one of the new racial traits.

[ April 21, 2003, 02:55: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

klausD

April 21st, 2003, 10:29 AM

many thanks for your prompt reply.
klausD

QuarianRex

April 21st, 2003, 07:54 PM

Originally posted by Aloofi:
Also, this uber-missile benefits mostly the AI, cause we humans know that pound by pound missiles are not worth the effort. They weight too much and reload too slow. Even the lowly Meson BLaster is a better weapon.Do you really think so? I have always found the stackable damage of missiles to be quite painful against things like leaky shields, since you tend to have a lot more damage hollowing out the hull before the shields have a chance to compensate.

PvK

February 26th, 2004, 07:55 AM

Edit:

LOL! I was doing a search to dig up the old PvK Balance Mod thread when I noticed Talenn's post from a year ago and thought it was recent. I think I'd already replied. Rather than delete what I just typed, I'll just leave it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

PvK

...

Hi Talenn,

I just noticed your message here.

Originally posted by Talenn:

...
Has anyone else noticed Torps as a good buy or is everyone just used to them being useless in the basic tech set and not really bothered with them? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
It's been noted before that I made torpedoes a good weapon in Proportions. They were dreadful in unmodded, but yes they are a good early choice. I actually like the low-tech ones pretty well because they do some damage and are dirt cheap. There are several techs that are made good in Proportion by their cheapness, which is more of a concern in Proportions than in unmodded, because you don't have runaway production, and small cheap ships can end up being cost-effective. See for example Armored Structure I, Efficient Engines, the cheap advanced sensors/ECM, small hulls, Basic Life Support, etc.

I don't know that torpedoes need to be toned down any, but lowering the to-hit is an appropriate change for the effect you have in mind - sounds good.

Many weapon stats have been adjusted, extended, and rebalanced in various ways. Pretty much all of the slow-reload weapons have more power than in unmodded. There are other heavy weapons that are more powerful higher on the tech tree, but they take more research to get to.

The various armors available also shift the weapon balance in a few ways.

Is there some updated listing of how emissive armor works now? I remember threads on it ages ago, but I'm sure they are outdated with the newer patches. Do emissive effects stack or is it only the highest...ie, if I have 2 Armored Hulls (11 Emissive each), do I have 22 total? Does it stack from different component (ie, 1 Armored Structure giving 1 + the Hull giving 11 = 12?)? I also wasnt aware that Emissive effects were 'global'. I was under the impression that the Emissive component had to be 'hit' for the damage reduction to apply. Has this been thoroughly tested and confirmed?
...It is confirmed that Emissive Armor on ships and bases is always applied to each hit, unless the hit is with an armor-piercing weapon. The highest EA value of any component on the ship is used, regardless of which component is being hit. EA effect never stacks in 1.84 or 1.91.

Regards,

PvK

[ February 26, 2004, 06:05: Message edited by: PvK ]

Siegebreaker

February 26th, 2004, 04:30 PM

Can I use proportions with the new patch?

PvK

February 26th, 2004, 06:59 PM

Yes, Proportions shouldn't have any problems with the new patch. The AI will behave a bit differently with colonizers - should hopefully be better with them now, and with its economy.

If anyone notices any issues, please let me know.

PvK

Siegebreaker

February 26th, 2004, 08:52 PM

I'm using an slightly modified Version of Proportions 2.5.3, and I'm worried that installing the new patch may erase my changes.

Do I have to reinstall proportions and/or SE4 to install the new patch?

PvK

February 26th, 2004, 11:03 PM

No, the patch doesn't touch Proportions. Proportions files aren't affected, and when using the mod, the mod's data files are used instead of the game's patched data files.

Meanwhile, all the hard-coded changes (AI, interface, bug fixes, etc.) work fine, and I don't know of anything but improvement when using Proportions.

Sometimes you do need to make a fresh install of SE4 before the finicky installer will run. Other times, you don't. If you do, you can then copy your old Proportions files into the new SE4 install, and it'll work fine (assuming the copy goes right).

The main issue with mods and the new patch is that mods don't get changed by the patch, and a few of the mod changes are in the data files which mods need to include. This is why I made a new Version of PvK Balance mod - because it doesn't change the data, so if you use Version 1.0 of PvK Balance with SE4 1.91, a few of the the SE4 1.91 changes get set back to 1.84 status - like the population curve, and component and facility tweaks.

PvK

oleg

March 1st, 2004, 03:26 PM

I played few proportions games with new patch and is quite impressed. AI use pop. transports MUCH more efficient now. However I suspect Aaron simply changed max. population to send transport from 500 to 50. I might be mistaken here but that is my impression. It would be much better if that value is determined in settings.txt than hardcoded http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Siegebreaker

March 1st, 2004, 03:43 PM

How can I mod in more than one militia unit per pop unit?
I modified my proportions settings.txt to get one per one, but I haven't found how to get more than one.

The point its, that infantry weights 1kt, and since a million pop weights 1000 kt, that means that one infantry have 1000 soldiers, right?

So if one million pop gives me one militia unit, that would mean 1000 soldiers out of one million, which seems to me completely unrealistic in the case of an alien invasion who undoubtely would unite all possible factions in any given colony against them.
I'll say that one million pop should give 10 000 militias, or maybe even 100 000, if we assume that the local authorities would draft all abled male for planetary defense.

If its not possible to have 10 or 100 militia units out of every pop unit, then I guess the only way would be to scale the single militia unit to represent 100 000 soldiers, keeping in mind that 1000 milita soldiers should be weaker than 1000 infantry.

Can anyone help me to enter the right values on the settings.txt to make militias like this, keeping that value within Proportion's combat values?
I fear I may overpower the militias.

oleg

March 1st, 2004, 04:18 PM

Originally posted by SB:
...
The point its, that infantry weights 1kt, and since a million pop weights 1000 kt, that means that one infantry have 1000 soldiers, right?

... Hmm, according to you, 1000 soldiers weight 1000 tons or 1 soldier weits 1T http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Just build more infantry and do not rely on militia.

And with your changes, how do you plan to ever take over a HW with its 2B people if each one recruit one militia http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

PvK

March 1st, 2004, 09:19 PM

Originally posted by oleg:
I played few proportions games with new patch and is quite impressed. AI use pop. transports MUCH more efficient now. However I suspect Aaron simply changed max. population to send transport from 500 to 50. I might be mistaken here but that is my impression. It would be much better if that value is determined in settings.txt than hardcoded http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif I did re-iterate the request for being able to mod that during beta. The patch notes describe a new algorithm that replaces the old threshold. IIRC it simply goes to the lowest-populated colony, unless a ship is already going there. Should be pretty effective for Proportions, given its population curve.

PvK

PvK

March 1st, 2004, 09:39 PM

Originally posted by SB:
How can I mod in more than one militia unit per pop unit?

I modified my proportions settings.txt to get one per one, but I haven't found how to get more than one.
I don't think you can. What you can do however, is change the strength of a militia unit, so it represents more or better-armed resistance.
The point its, that infantry weights 1kt, and since a million pop weights 1000 kt, that means that one infantry have 1000 soldiers, right?
No, that's making assumptions and over-simplifying. Colonists and whatever they need to become productive citizens on an alien planet may be more or less difficult to transport than soldiers and their military equipment. It'd no doubt vary from species to species and tech to tech. With no specifics available or needed, the mod is abstract on this point. If you like thinking of it as 1000 soldiers, that's not an unreasonable base-line though.

So if one million pop gives me one militia unit, that would mean 1000 soldiers out of one million, which seems to me completely unrealistic in the case of an alien invasion who undoubtely would unite all possible factions in any given colony against them.
I agree that resistence would be determined. However ...

I'll say that one million pop should give 10 000 militias, or maybe even 100 000, if we assume that the local authorities would draft all abled male for planetary defense.
Though I sympathize with the intent, your argument breaks down in practice on several details.

* First, one militia unit is not necessarily the same size as one infantry unit. It would depend on a lot of things.

* Second, realize that SE4 REGENERATES the militia for every ground combat, and that in Proportions, taking a defended planet often takes many ground combats. So one combat round of militia in Proportions should not represent all the civilians who could be drafted, but only a part. Taking a populated planet quickly therefore becomes more important, as makes sense. It would also be a game balance & logic problem if the population itself could generate unlimited strong defenders every unless they could overcome it immediately.

* Third, high-tech combat probably depends more on how many weapons are available, than how many unarmed & untrained volunteers are available. A militia can then be more properly represented by having colonies build or receive some simple infantry units. If a planet fails to do this, it means the colony doesn't have any useful weapons to equip its people with. My concept for Militia in Proportions was that it represented the ability of the civilians to use improvised weapons and to support whatever troops were there. Armed civilians, militia weapons Caches, or any military-effective weapons on the planet should be represented by infantry units. I suppose it'd be good to add a unit named "militia" for clarity.

PvK

[ March 01, 2004, 19:41: Message edited by: PvK ]

Siegebreaker

March 1st, 2004, 09:48 PM

Originally posted by oleg:
Hmm, according to you, 1000 soldiers weight 1000 tons or 1 soldier weits 1T http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
Well, think of it as the weight of the equipment. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Originally posted by oleg:

Just build more infantry and do not rely on militia. Not a bad idea. I will do it this way. It makes sense.

Originally posted by oleg:

And with your changes, how do you plan to ever take over a HW with its 2B people if each one recruit one militia http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif Humm..... I hadn't thought about this... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
I guess I'm gonna have to build a LOT of ground forces and troop transports.
That will be a battle on a true Epic scale! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

I think I will comission 4 more Shipyard Bases on my Homeworld to build my invading forces. (I already have....15!)

I either take the Xiati Homeworld or I go bankruptcy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

By the way, do the Plague Bombs kill ground forces too or only the Pops?

[ March 01, 2004, 19:51: Message edited by: SB ]