[OT] Cr*ppy Belgium [Archive] - .com.unity Forums

minipol

February 11th, 2003, 10:53 PM

Hhhmm. I live in Belgium and i'm ashamed by the way our government or better some politicians handle the whole Iraqi situation.
I mean, why o why do they have to be so annoying when it comes to the defence of Turkey. They think that issueing defences to Turkey is admitting the negotiations have already failed. Duh.
Like Saddam is going to comply. Woehahahaha. Right. He'll comply when he's dead.
Only mistake the Americans made was not finishing him of when they had the chance in the Gulf War.
Not that they won't this time.

I just don't get my own country. He's a pain in the rear, is laughing at the whole international community and sponsors terrorists yet our policitians find it necessary to behave like jack*sses. Come'on!
Do i beleive in reason? Yes. But you have to draw the line somewhere and IMHO, Saddam has crossed that line.

Also, a reason why i am not opposed to a war:
The quicker Saddams out, the quicker we can install a new government, the quicker sanctions can be lifted to aid a lot of children who are now suffering because of it.

It's a shame my country probably isn't going to send soldiers. Why do we have highly trained paratroopers if we don't use them? Why am i paying taxes for stuff that isn't used? Saddam is a threat to any civilised nation.

Yes, living in Belgium can be annoying, frustrating and confusing at times.

primitive

February 11th, 2003, 11:11 PM

minipol:
I only wish my own goverment had the wisdom and integrity to do the same as yours.

Puke

February 11th, 2003, 11:33 PM

i dont know what Belgium was thinking, but I have a pretty good idea about France and Germany.

when the trade towers were destroyed, it was the first time in recorded history that article 5 of the NATO charter was invoked. just about every allied nation had troops, ships, tanks, and planes ready to send to war. The US slapped them in the face, took the UK, Spain, and Canada, and told France and Germany to piss off. Thanks, but no thanks.

now they are getting us back. oh, the US is too good for our military alliance? guess what? we dont need to play with you either. thats what they're telling us. and they have every right to. the Alliance is falling appart. It was obvious from the first time the media started talking about "coallition forces." what the hell is that? our own private military alliance, outside of NATO? great...

now, not only do we have a "coallition," but there is talk of a european "federation." what the heck? no more Allies? couldn't find a good enough Axis power? have to make up new names for the new sides? wherever this **** is going, the people in charge have already made up their minds about it, and we are just along for the ride. you can see it in the news, as they feed us a little bit more bull**** every so often, just to get us ready for whatever they are going to do.

There IS going to be a war. NATO is NOT going to play along. we are starting our own team, and the other side is still sorting out what it is going to be about. The Arabs are going to be in the middle of it, but its not really going to be about them. both sides are picking members like schook kids getting ready for a ballgame. The world is changing, again.

Arkcon

February 11th, 2003, 11:37 PM

It was already said by someone wiser than me ... we had disagreements all the time, the threat the Soviet Union provided some "glue" to force an accord in these times. We don't have that anymore -- we're going to have to get used to disagrements like this.

European nations seem obsessed with "spanking" Turkey. Maybe Turkey's civil rights record poses a problem for letting them into the EU, or maybe it's a raceist policy with selective attention to their civil rights record. But NATO does have a job to do. Oh well, it may all sort itself out.

damien

February 11th, 2003, 11:42 PM

NATO is a defensive alliance - the members agree to defend each other from external agressors - they dont agree to automatically support each other in foreign invasions.

Iraq is not threatening to invade Turkey, and if Iraq and Turkey do go to war with each other it will be Iraq acting in self-defence, not to mention the fact that it will more likely be the Kurds fighting the Turks as the Turks move to invade northern Iraq to control the oil there and to squash any ideas of an independant Kurdistan.

I dont think that those kinds of actions were what NATO was formed to support. The turks have a human rights record almost as nasty as the Iraqis, especially where Kurds are concerned.

I do agree, however, that if Saddam still has weapons of mass destruction, that he would be less that cooperative in disarming.

On the other hand, can you imagine any circumstance in which the US (possesor of more than 6000 nuke warheads) would comply with a UN order to disarm?

The US, for instance, is a signatory to the now 30 year old Non-Proliferation Treaty. This treaty, in essence, is an agreement between the nuclear armed states and the non-nuclear armed states that the non-nuclear armed states will remain that way and the nuclear armed states will join them. Theres no sign that the US, or any of the other nuclear states, ever intends to go non-nuclear.

What this means is that any state with ambitions to act on the world stage, in a way contrary to US policy, MUST have nuclear weapons to deter the kind attack that Iraq is looking like it will recieve.

Greybeard

February 12th, 2003, 12:00 AM

I continue to be amazed at how many people don't understand that Iraq has violated the conditions of the cease fire from the previous "conflict." By violating these conditions, they have negated the cease fire. No additional action is necessary to continue the conflict. The "coalition force," or the United States does not need any additional approvals to finish the job.

The inspectors are not in Iraq to find Saddam's weapons, although you wouldn't know it from listening to Hanz Blix. The Iraqis are supposed to be showing the inspectors proof that they have destroyed or eliminated all of the biological, etc. weapons that they had at the end of the Gulf War. To date, Iraq has not cooperated and has not provided proof as required.

Saddam is playing a cat and mouse game and using disagreements between other nations to buy time. As GB said, the game is over.

The United Nations is as ineffective as the League of Nations was. For it to dissolve into nothing would be a great improvement. If you don't believe this, go to the UN web page and read some of the reports that their committees have prepared. These committees want to take away the sovereignty of all of the world's nations.

As for Europe, it's about time for them to defend themselves. Bring our troops home after this war and let Europe do what they wish without our support...Greybeard

minipol

February 12th, 2003, 12:34 AM

Originally posted by Greybeard:
As for Europe, it's about time for them to defend themselves. Bring our troops home after this war and let Europe do what they wish without our support...GreybeardI wonder how Europe would ever be able to defend itself. Europe has a history of struggles and wars and even to this day, as clearly shown the Last couple of days, they quarrel amongst themselves.
I really really wonder how this could be an effective force.
It's not IMO. More action, less talk. Debating is fine but when somebody slaps you in the face, you slap back and preferably a bit harder so they get the message (that's my way of doing things)
Reminds me of when i turned 12 and went to high school. For some reason, the kids of one class started pestering me. Talking to them or teachers
intervening didn't help. Then i punched one of them so hard in the face, a tooth flew out of his mouth. Case closed. Now when i was walking in the hall way, kids made room for me.
Of course that's not really a comparison and not meant to be, just a thought.

Anyway, i still find it hard that so many countries have trouble giving Saddam an ultimatum or whatever to really bring him down. Although i don't think an ultimatum would help.

God Emperor

February 12th, 2003, 12:40 AM

The whole problem about the Iraq affair is that the world community knows that the planned US invasion (Bush has intended to invade from day 1, have no doubt about that) is not being done solely because of altruistic reasons. Control of oil supplies and the middle-east and the USA's need to dominate the world (to support its economy) is a significant factor.

The above statement is not intended to pooh-pooh the fact that the strength of the USA over the Last 80 years has made it possible for western democracy to flourish. Its just to make the point that US policy is directed at ensuring the best outcomes for the US people, even if it is to the detriment of others (no different really from what other countries try to do).
The difference of course though is that the US is the only super-power, spends more on its military budget than the rest of the world combined, and maintains battle fleets in five of the worlds major oceans. With the USSR gone, the negative aspects of US foreign policy are more likely to become a source of friction between the US and its allies.
Comments by hardliners such as Rumsfeld (old Europe) and by Bush I think have exacerbated the differences - "if you are not with us, you are against us". Although the statement was referring to the War on Terror, it is clearly the approach that the current US administration takes to all of its dealings with other countries and just reinforces the message that the US "empire" will not tolerate dissenters.
I find it quite concerning actually that anyone the US disagrees with is automatically considered to be wrong, negative, etc.....

Just hope you Americans can keep your politicians under control and maintain your democracy and freedoms in the form that your founding fathers had in mind.
Regards,
GE

(the perspective of an Australian who doesnt like the way his Prime Minister says "how high" when Bush says "jump").....

Captain Kwok

February 12th, 2003, 12:51 AM

If I have to hear the the phrase 'weapons of mass destruction' one more time...

Here is a letter that I read in a recent Toronto Star newpaper opinion page that I thought hit the hammer on the head about those weapons...

Dubious Weapons of Mass Destruction

Feb. 6.

In would appear that there are three classifications of weapons of mass destruction: atomic, biological and gas. According to U.N. inspectors, there appears to be virtually no evidence that Iraq has constructed atomic weapons. As biological weapons go, the one most often mentioned is anthrax. But, unless some truly inspired work has been done with this agent, I have a lot of difficulty including it as a problem.

In his recent U.N. presentation, Colin Powell suggested that anthrax was a particularly deadly thing, that a teaspoonful shut down most of the Senate for a long period of time, and that two people died. While I do have sympathy for the survivors of those lost, two people do not make up a very great mass. What shut down the Senate was paranoia, not anthrax. Study of the history of recent infections suggests that it is extremely hard to develop an effective vector and that, to date, nothing has been developed that allows one to conclude that anthrax has any truly "mass" capability.

In regard to gas of whatever type, an understanding of the history of its deployment during warfare suggests that it is an extremely difficult weapon to use. Its use is complicated by wind patterns, geography and counteractive agents. As we discovered during World War I, it often blew back over the very people deploying it, rendering its use extremely questionable. It is also difficult to deliver any real quantity any real distance. A warhead filled with it might, if precisely aimed, kill a few dozen, or perhaps a few hundred, but again, classifying it as even a distant relative to the H-bomb is highly questionable. While Saddam Hussein may have even a large quantity, he has no effective means of delivery.

Given this discussion, the American rush to war seems even more questionable. I listened to Powell's presentation, hoping to hear a proper military briefing, complete with a description of weapons, weapons capability, weapons quantity and estimates of potential casualties if those weapons were deployed. I heard none of this. What I did hear was sound bite propaganda. And nothing that could not be verified by on-the-ground inspection.

How many people could the Iraqis possibly kill? How many would die if the Iraqis were attacked? Given the weapons available to each side, it seems that the Iraqis are in far more danger than we are.

The major worry seems to be that Saddam might follow a scorched earth policy. If this is truly what American officials believe, how can they still present the case that any really effective weapons of mass potential are still in Saddam's hands?Hmm.

primitive

February 12th, 2003, 01:08 AM

First of all, a statement.
- I am no friend of Saddam.
- I do belive there are some weapons of mass destruction stashed away.
- I do belive Saddam is doing everything in his power to keep these hidden.
- I do recognize this violates the cease-fire, and US have the mandate to go to war.

Yet I strongly oppose the war.

Why ?
It won't solve any problems, just move them to another location. The third worlds resentment agaist what they perceive as US/Western oppresion and aggression will increase even faster, and new terrorist bases will pop up somewhere else. It's far better to have one weak enemy you know and can control, then to have enemies you don't know.
And Weapens of mass destruction can be made with a chemistry-set in a basement. It's transporting them to the place they will be used that is the problem.

Greybeard:
American troops in Europe was needed (and greatly appreciated) until the fall of the Soviet Union. After that they are just a waste of tax-payers money. I really don't mind, because its not my taxes. But it makes me wonder if the real reason for the war is to justify the huge US defence budget.

Damien and God Emperor:
You are a wise (and well informed) men.

Puke:
There is much wisdom in your post, but I think You give the "people in charge" to much cred if you think they actually understand whats going on.

Krsqk

February 12th, 2003, 03:49 AM

Originally posted by primitive:
It won't solve any problems, just move them to another location. The third worlds resentment agaist what they perceive as US/Western oppresion and aggression will increase even faster, and new terrorist bases will pop up somewhere else. It's far better to have one weak enemy you know and can control, then to have enemies you don't know.No, the climate of hatred against the US already exists. Removing Saddam doesn't create a new problem somewhere else. Not removing Saddam doesn't prevent hatred against the US.

The world, in general, doesn't get its perspective of Americans from its foreign policy. In fact, according to a very recently released study, most non-Americans got their information about America from Hollywood. Those who knew Americans personally were less likely to hold negative views of the US than those who did not.

Militant Muslims call America the "Great Satan." This isn't because of our foreign policy; it's because of our culture, or at least their perception of it. They see us as a sexually promiscuous, greedy, irreverant, blasphemous people who stand in direct defiance to Islamic law. As such, in their minds, we must be destroyed and made subject to their laws.

How ironic that Hollywood is so strongly for talking about and "understanding" the view of these fanatics, when they would be the first people to go should the fanatics get their way. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

couslee

February 12th, 2003, 04:58 AM

now they are getting us back. oh, the US is too good for our military alliance? guess what? we dont need to play with you either. thats what they're telling us. and they have every right to.
and
both sides are picking members like schook kids getting ready for a ballgame.
and
Reminds me of when i turned 12 and went to high school. ( http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif 12yr old HS student?)
anThen i punched one of them so hard in the face, a tooth flew out of his mouth. Case closed. I certainly hope they have a better reason than the childish reason of "they told us no thanks" for failing to provide defensive measures for Turkey. If 12 yr old HS students are running the country, then perhaps whay they need is a good punch in the mouth. That is one sorry excuse to block NATO.

If I need $500, and 8 people say here is $100. Should the three people I say "no thanks, the need is met" too get offended because I didn't take "THEIR" $100? And in their anger go take it out on a third person who is in need?

I certainly hope that is not the situation. If it is..... They need to (expletive) grow up.

Besides, Iraq has already threatened many times to attack Turkey, and anyone else who aids the USA during wartime events. The threat is real, the lack of Turkish defensive aid is stupid.

And the excuse that it might be seen as a sign that talks have failed is just as lame. Perhaps everyone should wait until Saddam attacks them before making a move, because it might not be "politically correct". Iraq is a neighboring country to Turkey. It's easy to point a nay finger when your several nations away from the threat.

Baron Munchausen

February 12th, 2003, 06:08 AM

Hmm, hmm... such a menu of issues to comment on!

First of all, I think that the current European opposition to US policy on Iraq has more to do with the method than the content. If GWB had gone to the UN first, and with an attitude of really expecting to have to negotiate, there would be far fewer pissed off people in the world today. Instead the 'US Administration' simply announced that it was time for regime change in Iraq. As if this is a matter that can be determined in a cabinet meeting of the US government. Only after a lot of protest, domestic and international, was the case even taken to the UN Security Council, where it should have been started.

There are of course a certain number of countries that simply hate the US and resist anything the US wants, and they would oppose us anyway. They are no doubt in a state of glee over the way we have alienated most of our traditional allies in this debacle. Their work is much easier now.

That said, there is more than a little fault to be found with US foreign policy of late. Yes, Iraq has defied the UN mandates coming from the Gulf War for years, but that does not change the fact that it is the UN which must respond, not the US. The UN should have been primed and ready to get tough on Iraq, too. All it needed was some leadership which the US could have provided. But the many unilateral actions of the Bush administration prior to the emergence of this issue has soured the atmosphere and encouraged the other major players at the UN to think of ways to cut the US down a notch rather than how to advance international 'law and order'.

The behavior of the US Govt. on the domestic front seems to be just about the same as it is internationally. Gather all authority to itself. There is a push on to paper-over the entire constitution and create a police state with 'emergency powers' that have no defined limits and no defined times or conditions for their end. If you liked the 'USA Patriot Act' just wait for Patriot Act II which is rumored to be in the works.

[ February 12, 2003, 04:59: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

Greybeard

February 12th, 2003, 06:12 AM

My comment about taking all US troops out of Europe was intended to be said somewhat tongue-in-cheek. However, it doesn't quite read that way. Sorry.

I am tired of our leaders thinking that the US ought to be the world's policeman. Our economy is in the tank due to overspending, the world's economy is responding to fundamentals that exist even though the experts say we're in a new era, and all of us will probably be able to tell our grandchildren about living through the depression...Greybeard

BTW, the government of the US is a democratic republic, and NOT a democracy. Don't feel bad though, even our Representatives and Senators don't seem to know the difference.

Puke

February 12th, 2003, 09:38 AM

well, i probably shouldnt start talking about my ideas on politics. regarding the situation in Mesopotamia though, yes Iraq has weapons of mass destruction. we gave them to them to use against the Iranians to defend against their "human wave" attacks, a trick that they probably learned from the Russians. or maybe its just a timeless oldie.

Regarding justification for war, no we dont need any more. But no one gives a **** about Iraq, its weapons, or its human rights abuses. Just like no one cares about the human rights abuses in the Congo, or anywhere else. People care about money, oil, and power. now dont get me wrong, i like those things. our economy runs on money, and we get alot of that from oil. sure, a utopian paradise could do very well with alternate fuel systems, but we dont live in one of those. so its time to get used to it. the people in power like oil, and use it to get more money and power. sometime, it might dry up. but right now, its worth spending alot of money and lives to control. thats just the way it goes.

no one fought in south east asia for good an right, we did it for rubber, and money, and power. Im tired of all the global policeman make-believe. the people of all the other countries in the world think we are a bunch of dicks. their governments support us because they have to, not because their people want them to. if we are going to start this globalization / imperialist / hegemony stuff, lets stop kidding arround and just do it. no one is falling for the propaganda anyway.

lets slap some "Standard Oil" logos on the tails of our fighter jets, and get this over with.

Askan Nightbringer

February 12th, 2003, 09:56 AM

Well I was going to construct a thought provoking argument, with just a touch of cynical humour, but Puke said it way better than I ever could. So a big thumb's up to him.

Askan

Zarix

February 12th, 2003, 10:20 AM

Puke, you are right about the global policeman thing. If US had been a global policeman in Afganistan something would have been done to the local opium business.

Ruatha

February 12th, 2003, 11:09 AM

I belive that Puke hit the nails head. A bit honesty would improve others view on the US strategy and might even get people to approve.

[ February 12, 2003, 09:10: Message edited by: Ruatha ]

Rollo

February 12th, 2003, 11:34 AM

aye, Puke. Well said.

In response to US troops in Europe (or worldwide for that matter). Do you really think that these troops are there to defend helpless allies and the US is doing everyone a favor on the tax payer's expense?
No, these troops serve to protect US interest worldwide and conduct military campaigns around the globe. How do you think the US can deploy troops to the middle east and maitain their supply lines without bases in Europe?
Don't get me wrong, I do realize that there are many benefits for the other countries as well (yes, and also protection). The point is that the US would shoot themselves in the foot to abandon their bases.

damien

February 12th, 2003, 11:59 AM

this from an Iraqi blog
http://dear_raed.blogspot.com/

"the West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do."
-- Samuel P. Huntington

:: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 ::
:: salam pax 2:55 AM [+] ::
The whole region is a cesspool. dictatorships are all around the arab
region. Turkey and Iran fair just as bad as the rest of the lot. But the
benevolent western eye looks at Iraq only.
Thank you for your keen interest in the human rights situation in my
country,
thank you turning a blind eye for thirty years,
thank you for providing the support for my government to send 2 million
Iraqis to war with Iran and getting them killed,
thank you for not minding the development of chemical weapons by a nut case
when you knew he was a nut case,
thank you for not minding that members of the Iraqi communist party get acid
baths (you don't think that this was used for the first time in Kuwait do
you?, the government used these baths since the late 70's),
thank you for ignoring all human rights organizations when it came to the
plight of the Iraqi people,
thank you for keeping sanctions which you knew only weakened the people and
had no effect on the government.
Thank you for knowing all this and not minding.
For all your efforts I salute you with a hearty **** YOU.

There isn't a single bit of information which is not old and has been
rehashed by many human rights organizations before, so what makes you so
worried about how I manage to live in this **** hole now?
Don't read it if you are faint hearted, that is except if your name was
Raed, he has to because I say so.
Not a single line would raise an Iraqi eyebrow with amazement. This is how
it is and how it has been. Everyone heard a thousand horror stories, others
have witnessed them and still live here. Bite your tongue and move on. Don't
ask.

I forgot to thank all the western construction companies who have built the
mentioned prisons, and the eastern European countries who provided the
training.

So now you care? I don't know whether I am angry, sad or scared. You had the
reports all the time and you knew. What makes today different than a year
ago?

"No one doubts the barbarism of Saddam Hussein. It dates back to the period
when, under a Conservative government, the UK was willing to sell him
arms-related equipment and to give him substantial financial credit so that
he could afford to make purchases."
so while you're at it why don't you pull out the dossier about Syria? Or
maybe Turkey? I am sure you are already layouting the Saudi dossier and
making it look as nice as the Iraqi dossier, very good layouting don't you
think so?

Some1

February 12th, 2003, 12:12 PM

If the US would have signed Kyoto,...

If the US would have agreed the Global Justice court,...

If the US would agree to dismantle their own chemical, boilogical and nuclear weapons,...

If the US would care about human rights (even in their own country),...

If the US would be equal against (example) Saudi Aribia as vs Iraq(in their war against Terror),......

If the US really means to save the iraqi people from their cruel leader,...

If the US would treat palestinian people as PEOPLE

and a lot more...

If the US...I could 'support' the US, and with me a lot (people/countries) around the world...

But this war, is like supporting one dictator vs the other (And i see as the US as a dictator), in the end u are sorry.

R.

p.s. IF the US had a better president (rather then a couple of big Corporations, as leader).... a lot of this would not have happend...

(edit)p.s. i didn't see the post below, but i agree.

[ February 12, 2003, 10:20: Message edited by: Some1 ]

Fyron

February 12th, 2003, 12:36 PM

p.s. IF the US had a better president (rather then a couple of big Corporations, as leader).... a lot of this would not have happend...Sorry, but the US is not run by corporations. The leaders of those corporations, like rich people in every nation on the face of the planet, do have some room to make suggestions to Bush and the Congress and all. But, they do not control the government.

couslee

February 12th, 2003, 01:00 PM

rant
OIC, so if the USA intervenes in the issues, they they are wrong for violating the soverntry of another nation and accused of trying to "conquer the world" so they can have oily rubbers. And if they leave it up to which ever government that is in power to correct the wrongs in THEIR country, the USA is wrong and accused of turning a blind eye..... Kiss my arse. If the USA is going to be wrong no matter what they do, then IMNSHO they should do it right. And interpret that anyway you want.
/rant

On the lighter side, I really hope Saddam's latest cooperations is genuine and not another delay tactic. if genuine, then fantastic, a war can be averted. If it's more BS, then he has comming whatever happens. I think the there has been more than enough latitude given for him to cooperate.

minipol

February 12th, 2003, 01:53 PM

Originally posted by primitive:
It's far better to have one weak enemy you know and can control, then to have enemies you don't know.Not in alle cases. In the meanwhile he's still funding terrorists. Plus the embargo against Iraq is still in place. Do you really think they would lift the embargo while Saddam is in place?
I think ( you can never be sure, not in this political climate) that after a war, the embargo would be lifted, opening the door for aid to the people of Iraq. If the aid would reach those that really need it is another question.

How would you solve these issues while leaving Saddam in place. I don't think you can.

Askan Nightbringer

February 12th, 2003, 04:48 PM

Originally posted by minipol:

Well, i didn't feel that much different than home.
Only Vegas was much different: it's a dessert and we don't have a dessert here in Belgium http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Well now I'm being pedantic, but when I was in Brussels I did have a dessert (after my mussels and Lefe Brune of course). Never saw a desert, but there were plenty of desserts. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

As for the topic.... I love Belgium! I wish my country's leader had the testicular fortitude to do what Belgium did, instead of getting scruffed up knees and getting patted on the head alot.
With the American Hegemony at full pace now its only natural for other countries to decide on a policy of political non-cooperation. Nobody can out gun the USA, nobody can touch them economically so the best we can do is not cooperate. It may be futile but its still better than being completely trodden on.

Askan

damien

February 12th, 2003, 05:04 PM

Originally posted by Askan Nightbringer:

With the American Hegemony at full pace now its only natural for other countries to decide on a policy of political non-cooperation. Nobody can out gun the USA, nobody can touch them economically so the best we can do is not cooperate. It may be futile but its still better than being completely trodden on.
AskanYou're not saying that America has become the mega-evil empire are you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

And if so, you cant be proposing a campaign of civil disobedience can you?

Personally, I think the best way to deal with America is to ignore it completely. Filter it out of your life completely - stop watching american TV, stop going to american movies, stop listening to american music, and stop eating american food.

trooper

February 12th, 2003, 05:30 PM

Originally posted by Some1:
[QB]If the US would have signed Kyoto,...
You forgot : If the US would stop building and selling antipersonal mines...

But the rest is absolutely true. Why should we support a petrodollar dictature against a islamic military dictature ? And Irakians haven't elected Saddam (perhaps americans haven't elected GB in Florida too , I don't know), so they aren't responsible for that situation.

For me, the live of an irakian is as precious as the life of an american.

If Georges Bush has decided to get rid of SH, why not simply droper parachutists on its palace, or a big heavy laser guided bomb, instead of bombing a whole country ? These guys are paid to risk their live, after all. An other option would be to bribe irakian tribe leaders to rebel against Saddam. I think it would be a cheaper solution than moving the whole US army in the golf. So why does he want to attack ? to control the oil fields and please the corporation that put him in place ? to justify its military budget ? to be elected in 2004 ? I haven't said it, it's up to you to make your opinion.

minipol

February 12th, 2003, 06:11 PM

Originally posted by Askan Nightbringer:
(after my mussels and Lefe Brune of course)You'll have to come back. We have more than 1000 beers. I personnaly have only tasted about 40 different ones so i have much work to do :-)
Although i haven't tasted "Lefe Brune" yet but i know a beer called "Leffe Bruin" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

As for the Belgian politics. Some of our politicians might look strong to the outside world but it's ashame they can't be that resourceful when it comes to internal politics.

Belgium is one of the only countries with 3 governments. 1 flemish, 1 walloon and 1 federal. Or something like that. Too complicated for a normal thinking human being to understand.

Beer, waffels, mussels and chocolate is all we have http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

dogscoff

February 12th, 2003, 06:27 PM

Beer, waffels, mussels and chocolate is all we have
I'd be happy with just the beer and chocolate.

*Dogscoff books a one-way ticket on the Eurostar...

Krsqk

February 12th, 2003, 07:41 PM

Personally, I think the best way to deal with America is to ignore it completely. Filter it out of your life completely - stop watching american TV, stop going to american movies, stop listening to american music, and stop eating american food.Please. By all means. If anyone out there truly feels the US is evil, then it's only being consistent to avoid all connection with them. If we are controlled by evil corporate entities, then don't support them with your dollars (or dinars or rubles or francs or lira...).

Let's see if those in other countries are willing to give up the luxuries obtained from this country and put their money where their mouth is.

Sinapus

February 12th, 2003, 07:43 PM

Originally posted by trooper:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Some1:
If the US would have signed Kyoto,...
You forgot : If the US would stop building and selling antipersonal mines...
<hr /></blockquote>...it wouldn't put a dent in the number of mines used/deployed worldwide.

(...similar reasons for Kyoto, actually. Funny that.)

Desdinova

February 12th, 2003, 09:23 PM

politics! never understood it and really dont want to.
(next statement is a joke)
you realize its all the other countries fault the us is the way it is. if you hadnt sent all the undesirables from your countries to the new land we wouldnt be this way.

the war.
it has been long enough since the Last war/police action the the us military has new weapons it needs to try out and a whole lot of old ones to get rid of. if we, the us, were actually concerned about just getting rid of SH and actually helping the other countries we do have the technological ability to strike specific targets and not invade. it was proven when the us dropped the bunker buster Last time and SH realized we can strike him even in his best defended bunker. the us is looking out for its interests and using the attack on 9/11 as an excuse.
unfortunately there seems to be a recurring pattern in history regarding the so called superpowers. empire becomes to big and is disliked by others, empire is toppled and replaced by one of the others. it soon becomes a superpower and gets mega-evil empire status and it toppled....etc..
Last empire was the uk (i am still trying to figure out how a country the size of the uk was able to be as powerful as it was) now it is the us and who knows who it will be next (guess it depends on who buys up most of the us)...assuming we dont destroy the world first
these are my ramblings and they are ended.

[ February 12, 2003, 19:24: Message edited by: desdinova ]

Puke

February 12th, 2003, 10:33 PM

Originally posted by minipol:
We have more than 1000 beers. I personnaly have only tasted about 40 different ones so i have much work to do :-)I really enjoy Chimmay, and a few other Belgian ales. I would love to visit, and try some of the stuff thats too good to export http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

We make some things here that we call "Belgian Waffles," but im sure they are not as good as the rea thing.

Im getting hungry just thinking about it. If I visited, where is a good place to go?

Ruatha

February 12th, 2003, 11:22 PM

Originally posted by Sinapus:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by trooper:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Some1:
If the US would have signed Kyoto,...
You forgot : If the US would stop building and selling antipersonal mines...
<hr /></blockquote>...it wouldn't put a dent in the number of mines used/deployed worldwide.

(...similar reasons for Kyoto, actually. Funny that.)<hr /></blockquote>Yes, it would put a dent in the number of mines used worldwide.

<a href="http://www.iansa.org/news/2000/aug_00/treaty_landmines.htm" target="_blank">Now, three years after the initial signing of the Mine Ban Treaty in Ottawa, 137 nations have signed and 100 have ratified this agreement. States party to the treaty are destroying their stockpiles of antipersonnel land mines; exports of these indiscriminate weapons have, in a matter of years, gone from a flood to a trickle; and demining efforts in dozens of countries are giving people back their land.

Despite this revolutionary success, unfortunately, several states, including Russia and China, have yet to accede to the Mine Ban Treaty. Not surprisingly, Iraq, Libya, and North Korea, notorious culprits when it comes to complying with weapons regulations, have not yet joined either. Many Americans, however, would be shocked to know that the United States is part of this list of usual suspects that produce, deploy, and develop antipersonnel land mines, weapons that maim or kill more than 22,000 civilians a year.</a>

ICBL! (http://www.asca-sacrecoeur.org/MoreLandmines.htm)

Kyoto Protocol (http://unfccc.int/resource/docs/convkp/kpeng.html) Most US citizens would like the US to sign the Kyoto treaty (http://www.americans-world.org/digest/global_issues/global_warming/gw2.cfm)
Percentage of Pollution by the US (http://naturalscience.com/ns/news/ns_news7.html)
No proof humans are heating up the big place! (http://www.marshall.org/article.php?id=52)

Phoenix-D

February 13th, 2003, 12:35 AM

Ruatha, mines in and of themselves aren't a problem. It is not cleaning them up once you're done that causes problems.

Kyoto was quite flawed, in that it exempted several nations from any limits at all. Why should the US sign a treaty that would hurt its economy if everyone else isn't going to play by the same rules?

Phoenix-D

minipol

February 13th, 2003, 01:22 AM

Originally posted by Puke:
Im getting hungry just thinking about it. If I visited, where is a good place to go?Try living here. I'm always hungry http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I even joined an American Football club here in Belgium tribes (http://www.tribes.be) because my body is starting to show what happens when you indulge in all the goodness http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

For Beer, basically anywhere. Brussels and Bruges have some nice cafes known for serving a lot of those special rare beers. I'm sure there are other places but i haven't visited them yet http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Since i was born in Bruges, i know a few local pu bs there. This is a must visit if you come to Belgium. Never EVER leave belgium without going here. And please leave the pub drunk as you'll never forgive yourself for not tasting more beers http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Brugs Beertje (http://www.whitebeertravels.co.uk/bruges_bear.html)
Problem with some of them is that they are brewn by a small group of people, only during a certain season or even for a certain festivity and so the number of available beers is low. Some of the recipies date back to the middleages.

For food. Basically anywhere. Yummy.
Now i am starting to get hungry http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

By the way, Chimmay is indeed a very nice beer. Goes well with cheese.

primitive

February 13th, 2003, 01:51 AM

Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
Ruatha, mines in and of themselves aren't a problem. It is not cleaning them up once you're done that causes problems.

Kyoto was quite flawed, in that it exempted several nations from any limits at all. Why should the US sign a treaty that would hurt its economy if everyone else isn't going to play by the same rules?

Phoenix-DBull's eye.

This is the reason USA is slowly turning itself into the new MEE.

The very idea that just because you don't like something you can just ignore it.
The rest of the world don't have that freedom We are forced to interact with our neighbors, USA just steamrolls them.

minipol

February 13th, 2003, 02:00 AM

Originally posted by Krsqk:
Those who knew Americans personally were less likely to hold negative views of the US than those who did not.Yep, i think this is true. I know people who also like to bash the Americans. I can't stand this because their arguments come from shows like Jerry Springer and are full of stereotypes. Sure, JS is what America thinks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif
Come on, give me a break. I went to the States twice: once to Boston for my job and once to Las Vegas to get married there. The Last trip was kind of scary because it was only 10 days after the september 11th attack that we flew in from Belgium. My wife and me where uneasy to say the least.
Well, i didn't feel that much different than home.
Only Vegas was much different: it's a desert and we don't have a desert here in Belgium http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

For my previous job, i was working daily with Americans and i came to appreciate them. Although i must admit that i already liked the States before i met any people from there.

(Edit: changed dessert to desert. ouch http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )

[ February 12, 2003, 16:02: Message edited by: minipol ]

Thermodyne

February 13th, 2003, 02:09 AM

Let�s sum this up real quick. The US needs Arab oil, at least until the oil in the South China Sea comes on line. We do not choose to continue to fund terrorism through the purchase of Arab oil. So we will have a war in the Gulf. Also, this *** tried to have Bush Sr. assonated after GW1. If it was your dad, wouldn�t you be a little hard nosed about all of this?

Several European countries have a very profitable trade situation with a certain Arab country. Would you want to have your cash cow attacked? Also, the same European countries produce some of the finest medical equipment in the world. Equipment that will become stories in the New York Times after the war gets under way. Would you want to have to explain how this stuff got to the Middle East, and what it was being used for? It�s a loose loose situation for some people.

We could just do this in a court, drag his raggedy *** in and prosecute him for crimes against humanity. Last time I looked, the Kurds were people too!

DavidG

February 13th, 2003, 02:23 AM

Re: anti personel mines. How Can anyone defend the production of a weapon that maims 22000 civilians every year?? (and I sure that number includes a ton of children) Sure the problem may be not cleaning them up but frankly I think the world could avoid a lot of problems if those selling weapons cared a little more about how and who would be using them.

Re: Nation bashing. Well American bashing is a popular activitiy for many up here in Canada. Then at the same time they'll go off to see a Hollywood movie, buy fresh US vegetables in the middle of winter and convieniently forget Canada's huge trade surplus with the US.

Phoenix-D

February 13th, 2003, 04:19 AM

"The very idea that just because you don't like something you can just ignore it.
The rest of the world don't have that freedom We are forced to interact with our neighbors, USA just steamrolls them."

The Kyoto treaty isn't interaction. It's simply an unfair treaty. If the goal is to control carbo dioxide emissions, then -everyone- who signs the treaty should have to limit them. That isn't how the treaty was.

Phoenix-D

Sinapus

February 13th, 2003, 05:50 PM

Originally posted by DavidG:
Re: anti personel mines. How Can anyone defend the production of a weapon that maims 22000 civilians every year??
How can anyone support production of a device that kills 50,000 civilians every year (and maims many more) in the United States alone?

Or is it only bad if it's a weapon that maims people, while objects that you might find useful are okay, even if people die or are maimed by them?

(and I sure that number includes a ton of children)
Which only gives a more trauma-inducing bloody shirt for people to wave so people will blindly flock to their cause. Me? I find crying out to blunt our swords in the name of humanity to be foolish at best.

Sure the problem may be not cleaning them up but frankly I think the world could avoid a lot of problems if those selling weapons cared a little more about how and who would be using them.


I don't know whether to laugh or weep.

Ruatha

February 13th, 2003, 06:30 PM

Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
Ruatha, mines in and of themselves aren't a problem. It is not cleaning them up once you're done that causes problems.

Phoenix-DHmm, yes I see. The atombomb over Nagasaki and Hiroshima didn't kill people, it was the one dropping the bomb who killed people.

(In US many says " it's not guns whoo kill people, people kill people", yeah, five year olds who find's their dad's gun!)

You US people never stop to amuse me.
Don't get me wrong, I really like you. Close by you are really nice people, I lived 5 weeks in a tent in florida a couple of years ago, real fun.
But alot of the US citizens are really naive, and I should now what I'm talking about as I'm quite naive myself, for a swede atleast.

(Not strange I guess, there are quite alot of US citizens to choose from).

[ February 13, 2003, 16:51: Message edited by: Ruatha ]

dogscoff

February 13th, 2003, 06:42 PM

Which only gives a more trauma-inducing bloody shirt for people to wave so people will blindly flock to their cause. Me? I find crying out to blunt our swords in the name of humanity to be foolish at best.
Your metaphor is inadequate, because a landmine is not a like sword in any way. A sword kills the person you point it at. A landmine kills anyone who happens to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, sometimes years and years after the conflict is over. Most countries manage to defend themselves perfectly well without them, so I don't think there's any sensible argument for their continued production.

I don't think any government would be wise to throw away every weapon it has and dismantle its armies, but I do think certain weapons should not be produced, owned or used anywhere by anyone, ever. Landmines are one. Nukes are another.

Some1

February 13th, 2003, 06:50 PM

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
p.s. IF the US had a better president (rather then a couple of big Corporations, as leader).... a lot of this would not have happend...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry, but the US is not run by corporations. The leaders of those corporations, like rich people in every nation on the face of the planet, do have some room to make suggestions to Bush and the Congress and all. But, they do not control the government.
I see bush as one of those leaders... wasn't he himself in oil? Who made it possible to finance his election? etc..etc..
And all his actions seems that i am right, like:
Drilling in Alaska, War in middle east, Kyoto etc..
I don't see the difference honest... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

And about Kyoto, yep America had to do the most against the CO2, BECAUSE they made the most pollution... about one third of the entire world!!! Come on! The reason the US is so rich is because of it...

And to go back to the initial post?. I think Belgium is brave to deny US help... and doesn't scare away (like my country)... and be afraid to loose deals.

R.

Some1

February 13th, 2003, 06:57 PM

Re: anti personel mines. How Can anyone defend the production of a weapon that maims 22000 civilians every year?? (and I sure that number includes a ton of children) Sure the problem may be not cleaning them up but frankly I think the world could avoid a lot of problems if those selling weapons cared a little more about how and who would be using them.
Someone was very drunk or naive when writing this.

R.

dogscoff

February 13th, 2003, 07:11 PM

Someone was very drunk or naive when writing this.
And some1 was very flippant or cryptic when writing this. Why? Please explain your viewpoint.

[ February 13, 2003, 17:12: Message edited by: dogscoff ]

Puke

February 13th, 2003, 09:01 PM

all weapons kill and mame people. some of them do it indescriminantly. when creating a weapon, the thing to consider is if it will do its job effectively. Anti-personnel mines DO. when selling a weapon, the thing to consider is if the political/strategic benefit of putting it in the hands of the buyer, combined with the cold hard cash, outweigh the long term dangers of putting it in the hands of the buyer.

how those questions are evaluated seems to be a point of some contention, but the problem is not that they kill children. the people making those mines and selling those mines dont care about that, because any child who has occasion to walk through a minefield is not contributing to the global economy, and thus dont count very much in the grand scheme of profiteering. if the kid worked in a nike factory, he would probalby have a plowed road to get to his place of employment, that could be reasonably be kept clear of mines. so odds are, hes just a farmer. and if the forigners are growing their own food, it means they are not buying ours.

so, from the viewpoint of our capitalist military industrial complex, AP mines do no harm at all. crying about injustice in the world isnt going to get anyone anywhere.

geoschmo

February 13th, 2003, 09:32 PM

Damn Puke. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif I guess that's one way to look at things. A little cold though.

Fyron

February 13th, 2003, 09:39 PM

(In US many says " it's not guns whoo kill people, people kill people", yeah, five year olds who find's their dad's gun!)You do realize that that almost never happens, right? Maybe just a few times a year in the world, which is not enough to cry about. I wouldn't doubt it if there are more deaths from lighting strikes killed than there are accidental deaths by five year olds (and other young ages) with gun access.

Sinapus

February 13th, 2003, 10:08 PM

Originally posted by Ruatha:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
Ruatha, mines in and of themselves aren't a problem. It is not cleaning them up once you're done that causes problems.

Phoenix-DHmm, yes I see. The atombomb over Nagasaki and Hiroshima didn't kill people, it was the one dropping the bomb who killed people.

(In US many says " it's not guns whoo kill people, people kill people", yeah, five year olds who find's their dad's gun!)
<hr /></blockquote>Actually, the overwhelming majority of gun owners in the US are quite adept at keeping their children from killing themselves or their playmates with dad's(or even mom's) gun. But don't let facts get in the way of rabid emotionalism.

As for the person who mentioned weapons that kill people for "years after the war is over" well, you just eliminated artillery shells, bombs and pretty much anything that uses explosives. Unexploded shells from a past war are still being found in France, IIRC. That past war being the Great War. AKA World War I, or "The War to End all Wars"... (Of course, I could be mistaken and the supply of unexploded shells found in French fields for the past few years might now be solely from the 2nd World War, but I hope someone gets the point.)

The "blunt our swords" line, btw, is from Clausewitz, and didn't mean swords in a literal sense. I guess metaphors are a two-edged sword, though. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif

(Why am I having flashbacks to a Saturday Night Live sketch parodying Rumsfield's press conferences a little over a year ago. "Our troops are using night vision goggles, while the Taliban and Al Queda forces are not... is that fair?") http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

primitive

February 13th, 2003, 10:09 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />(In US many says " it's not guns whoo kill people, people kill people", yeah, five year olds who find's their dad's gun!)You do realize that that almost never happens, right? Maybe just a few times a year in the world, which is not enough to cry about. I wouldn't doubt it if there are more deaths from lighting strikes killed than there are accidental deaths by five year olds (and other young ages) with gun access.<hr /></blockquote>Fyron: Please define "young ages"

Some1

February 13th, 2003, 11:19 PM

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Someone was very drunk or naive when writing this.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And some1 was very flippant or cryptic when writing this. Why? Please explain your viewpoint.
Sorry, i will, thought it was clear already http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: anti personel mines. How Can anyone defend the production of a weapon that maims 22000 civilians every year?? (and I sure that number includes a ton of children) Sure the problem may be not cleaning them up but frankly I think the world could avoid a lot of problems if those selling weapons cared a little more about how and who would be using them.
"I think the world could avoid a lot of problems if those selling weapons cared a little more about how and who would be using them."

Why make them at all??? US(and ofcourse other countries) should stop make these things. Anyone who owns stuff they can't use can thrown it away. If countries have them, they WILL use them one way or the other, is it selling them, or using them when in trouble themselfs....

So, avoid the problem.... don't make them at all.

Not selling is just tending the wounds,
not making is the remedy..

R.

edit: Drunk = not thinking about it.
naive = thinking that if people have stuff they can sell for money... they would not sell.

[ February 13, 2003, 21:25: Message edited by: Some1 ]

DavidG

February 13th, 2003, 11:24 PM

Originally posted by Some1:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Re: anti personel mines. How Can anyone defend the production of a weapon that maims 22000 civilians every year?? (and I sure that number includes a ton of children) Sure the problem may be not cleaning them up but frankly I think the world could avoid a lot of problems if those selling weapons cared a little more about how and who would be using them.
Someone was very drunk or naive when writing this.

R.<hr /></blockquote>Oh very nice. I offer my 2 cents worth and get accused of being drunk. Got anything less insulting to say?

DavidG

February 13th, 2003, 11:29 PM

Originally posted by Sinapus:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DavidG:
Re: anti personel mines. How Can anyone defend the production of a weapon that maims 22000 civilians every year??
How can anyone support production of a device that kills 50,000 civilians every year (and maims many more) in the United States alone?

Or is it only bad if it's a weapon that maims people, while objects that you might find useful are okay, even if people die or are maimed by them?
<hr /></blockquote>Where exactly did you get from my post that I "support production of a device that kills 50,000 civilians every year"???

Some1

February 13th, 2003, 11:29 PM

i apologize for my bad choice of words... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
I don't want to trigger a discussion about my post..

sorry,sorry,sorry,sorry http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

R.

Sinapus

February 13th, 2003, 11:42 PM

Sinapus

February 13th, 2003, 11:47 PM

Originally posted by Some1:
"I think the world could avoid a lot of problems if those selling weapons cared a little more about how and who would be using them."

Why make them at all??? US(and ofcourse other countries) should stop make these things. Anyone who owns stuff they can't use can thrown it away. If countries have them, they WILL use them one way or the other, is it selling them, or using them when in trouble themselfs....

So, avoid the problem.... don't make them at all.

Not selling is just tending the wounds,
not making is the remedy..

edit: Drunk = not thinking about it.
naive = thinking that if people have stuff they can sell for money... they would not sell.Oh, I think the word naive covers quite a few assumptions. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Thermodyne

February 14th, 2003, 12:01 AM

Let�s see how much you guys really know. Which 10 countries export the most arms? Not so quick, Aircraft sales are not to be counted, and costal patrol ships don�t count either. They are very big ticket items, and tend to distort the big picture.

Next, who are the five largest exporters of ballistic missiles?

Then let�s ask who are the five largest exporters of anti shipping missiles?

And just for fun, who manufactured the majority of the land mines that are responsible for the death toll in Asia? Bosnia?

Puke

February 14th, 2003, 12:07 AM

i would be much happier in a world without cigarettes, than in a world without anti personnel mines. it just happens to be very popular at the moment, to disaprove of AP mines.

for a while it was popular to disaprove of DU tank rounds, because the uranium vaporizes as it sheers through tank hulls, and the particulate matter gets into the air, food, and water, causing cancer and radiation sickness in nearby villagers.

for a while, it was popular to disaprove of cluster bombs, because their submunitions dont always explode, and their paper packaging looks just like the packaging on air-dropped food supplies.

for a while, it was popular to disaprove of ethnic clea.. oh wait, thats still bad.

we have developed battlefield lasers that can shoot down missiles and planes, and attack targets on the ground. sounds slick, but the refracted energy from them tends to burn the corneas of happless civilians within a radius of a couple miles. while weapons designed to blind people are specifically prohibited by the Geneva Convention, lasers are not. we put that provision in there because we knew we were in the process of developing lasers that would BLIND BYSTANDARDS as far back as 60 years ago.

The basic truth of the matter, is that war is hell. and its in mankinds blood to wage war. these truths are not about to change. we have set up some basic rules of engagement regarding the kinds of things that are "foul play," and this may eventually extend to AP mines.

but even the things we Banned over half a century ago, are being stockpiled "just in case" and are being sold to "lesser" countries for their petty conflicts that fall outside of the jurisdiction of the "big boys" like civil war in South America. NATO does not give a ****. they dont give a **** about the Congo, either.

we will happily sell those guys whatever nasty stuff they want to buy, because their not in our little club. so we keep making the biological weapons. and the chemical weapons. and sometimes, we do the nasty things our selves. we were not attacking military targets in Dresden or Tokyo, but the firebombings had a strategic objective.

you can express your outrage, but you will only frustrate yourself unless you actually make an effort to understand the motives behind the things people do. no one is making weapons for the express purpose of being evil. there is a method to all of it. you can disagree, but you have to realize that its there.

Puke

February 14th, 2003, 12:34 AM

Originally posted by Thermodyne:
Let�s see how much you guys really know. You know, Thermodyne, I honestly dont know. I know that the US, Russia, and France all export alot, but the items from the US and Russia are probably more big ticket items. I know that France sells alot of missiles, and Fabrique Nationale exports alot of smallarms.

I also know that China is a HUGE arms producer and exporter, and I am pretty sure that the Ukraine is too. I know that ammunition is manufactured in all sorts of odd places, I bought some bulk lots of 7mm Mauser ammo from Columbia, a couple years ago. are you seperating Ammo from Munitions?

Germany and Austria both produce alot of arms, but I dont know how much they actually export. Japan has a very well armed "National Defense Force," but I dont think they are in the business of selling weapons.

I have some spanish swords, but I dont think those count. the UK builds some nice tanks, and their own fare share of smallarms, but again, I dont know how many actually get sold.

honestly, your question is far to specific to test anyones real knowledge of anything, and looking up statistics is not high on my list of things to do right now. but I would be interested in hearing the answer, and whatever conclusions you feel like drawing from that answer.

DavidG

February 14th, 2003, 12:44 AM

Originally posted by Sinapus:
A guess. So I was wrong and you do have objections to the manufacture of automobiles? My sincere apologies.Oooo aren't you clever. You got me. Give yourself a pat on the back. Yes land mines are just like automobiles.

I will now retreat from these politcal threads and go back to the game threads were people are actually friendly.

Phoenix-D

February 14th, 2003, 12:54 AM

"Hmm, yes I see. The atombomb over Nagasaki and Hiroshima didn't kill people, it was the one dropping the bomb who killed people."

You're not following. Civilians tend to stay the hell -away- from warzones when possible, and anyone who is blindly running around one tends to have problems aside from mines.

EDIT: speaking of which, I have to ask again why it's always Hiroshima that pops up? Why not, oh, the firebombing of the other Japanease cities, or the bombings of various European cities?

Once the shooting stops, then you have the problem with the mines. Because unlike other weapons they just sit there.

"(In US many says " it's not guns whoo kill people, people kill people", yeah, five year olds who find's their dad's gun!)"

Total number of deaths in the US:
2,391,399
Deaths by firearms, all causes:
28663

One percent; the majority of people killed were in the 15-29 range for men and 30-44 for women. Not exactly an epidepmic of 5- year olds getting killed.

Phoenix-D

[ February 13, 2003, 22:57: Message edited by: Phoenix-D ]

minipol

February 14th, 2003, 12:57 AM

Originally posted by Sinapus:
Unexploded shells from a past war are still being found in France, IIRC. That past war being the Great War. AKA World War I, or "The War to End all Wars"... (Of course, I could be mistaken and the supply of unexploded shells found in French fields for the past few years might now be solely from the 2nd World War, but I hope someone gets the point.)France? What about Belgium? We still find almost 200 tons a year of shells both conventional and chemical shells. Imagine. We are 2003 yet our fields are still full of them. And shells are not all we find: guns, bunkers, trenches, shelters, grenades, shoes, bullets and so on.
A friend of mine collects stuff from wwi and he once found a pair of shoes, with the feet still in there (decayed).

Whenever they start a rather big construction in the region of Ypres (where a lot of English soldiers where stationed and full of graveyards), they almost always bump into some forgotten trench or some other find that dates back to WWI. I mean we find a lot more stuff from WWI than we do from WWII. Might be logical because the frontlines didn't move that much here in the 4 years the war Lasted.
Almost every year a farmer dies when plowing his field because of a shell that hits the plow and explodes.
When my wife was little she was playing with small artillery shells that she and her sister had dug up in the backyard of the garden of her grandmother. Unexploded ones. Of course they where too heavy to lift. Imagine that. If they would have exploded, nothing would have been left of her. So in that respect, they might be as leathal as mines.
We even needed to build a special factory to clean up all the bombs and shells.

From WWII what we find most of the time is big bombs that where dropped by planes.
So Belgium is nice but you might want to check where you walk. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[edit for yet another spelling mistake]

[ February 13, 2003, 23:03: Message edited by: minipol ]

Sinapus

February 14th, 2003, 01:16 AM

Originally posted by Puke:
for a while, it was popular to disaprove of cluster bombs, because their submunitions dont always explode, and their paper packaging looks just like the packaging on air-dropped food supplies.
Actually, the packaging is shaped very differently. The color of the so-called identical items was the same. (Finally found an image comparison in one of the US is evil sites.) Either that was a training round, or someone decided to make the submunitions a bright color so they could be easier to find by EOD teams.

Which probably proves the "damned if you do, damned if you don't" cliche.

Fyron

February 14th, 2003, 02:49 AM

Originally posted by DavidG:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Some1:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Re: anti personel mines. How Can anyone defend the production of a weapon that maims 22000 civilians every year?? (and I sure that number includes a ton of children) Sure the problem may be not cleaning them up but frankly I think the world could avoid a lot of problems if those selling weapons cared a little more about how and who would be using them.
Someone was very drunk or naive when writing this.

R.<hr /></blockquote>Oh very nice. I offer my 2 cents worth and get accused of being drunk. Got anything less insulting to say?<hr /></blockquote>Some1, please don't be so arrogant to assume that you hold absolute truth and anyone that disagrees with you is naive. The only one being naive there is the person that believes they hold absolute truth.

Phoenix-D:

"(In US many says " it's not guns whoo kill people, people kill people", yeah, five year olds who find's their dad's gun!)"

Total number of deaths in the US:
2,391,399
Deaths by firearms, all causes:
28663

One percent; the majority of people killed were in the 15-29 range for men and 30-44 for women. Not exactly an epidepmic of 5- year olds getting killed.Thanks for backing me up there. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ February 14, 2003, 00:51: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Puke

February 14th, 2003, 03:16 AM

Thank you for the clarification, Sinapus.

primitive

February 14th, 2003, 03:20 AM

Fyron:
Some1 breatched good netiquette with his post. But he has already appologized, and that should end it.

All off us posting in these political threads suffer more or less from the arrogance virus. We should all try to keep that patronizing tone out of our Posts.

EDIT: Oops! I did it again, this is hard.

[ February 14, 2003, 01:32: Message edited by: primitive ]

Ruatha

February 14th, 2003, 09:26 AM

I think the only reason we post in these "political" topics is becourse we are frequent posters here.
We somehow got the impression that we "know" eachother and therefore feel comfortable enough to talk about these things, and not only SE4 things.

I think this is a good thing.

And I think Mines should be Banned in SE4 aswell, those pesky buggers kill most of my ships!

IBSE4MT (International Ban for Space Empires 4 Mines Treaty)

Also, people under the age of 30 shouldn't be allowed to have Phased Beam weapons, they migh harm themself, how about that Fyron and P-D, can you find any statistics?

[ February 14, 2003, 07:29: Message edited by: Ruatha ]

minipol

February 14th, 2003, 09:54 AM

Originally posted by Ruatha:
I think this is a good thing.

And I think Mines should be Banned in SE4 aswell, those pesky buggers kill most of my ships!

IBSE4MT (International Ban for Space Empires 4 Mines Treaty)

Also, people under the age of 30 shouldn't be allowed to have Phased Beam weapons, they migh harm themself, how about that Fyron and P-D, can you find any statistics?Hehehe, good humour http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Puke

February 14th, 2003, 10:26 AM

Originally posted by Ruatha:
Also, people under the age of 30 shouldn't be allowed to have Phased Beam weapons, they migh harm themself, how about that Fyron and P-D, can you find any statistics?Indeed, these discussions are far more civil, because forum members here have a kind of reporte. and yes, not only should those under 30 be Banned from PPBs, but those living anywhere within 100 miles of LA should be Banned from having APBs or NSCs, as well. Im sure Fyron would agree.

PsychoTechFreak

February 14th, 2003, 10:33 AM

Today I have received a mail from one of my US friends, we are working together in the same company division, just the ocean is between us:

Today was the day when they notified many people (mostly R&D types) that they were being released from ... It is a sad day here too! I believe that our stupid president George W. Bush is personally responsible for the bad worldwide economic climate! All he wants to do is go to war despite overwhelming international disapproval. It is making the stock market drop big time. People are really nervous and nobody is buying expensive capital items such as ... (our digital printing machine)

Some1

February 14th, 2003, 12:37 PM

Originally posted by Ruatha:
Also, people under the age of 30 shouldn't be allowed to have Phased Beam weapons, they migh harm themself, how about that Fyron and P-D, can you find any statistics?Why not ban them for all, cuz i hate it when people pierce my shields
There are a lot crazy 30+ ers too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
cuz statsitically only 5year old may have weapons, they cause less deaths of all due to wepaons http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I.Fyron, plz read all the Posts... cause what i said in that case where facts, ...IMO http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

R.

[ February 14, 2003, 10:40: Message edited by: Some1 ]

Fyron

February 14th, 2003, 01:40 PM

Some1:
I did read all of the Posts, and that is the impression I got from them all.

Also, people under the age of 30 shouldn't be allowed to have Phased Beam weapons, they migh harm themself, how about that Fyron and P-D, can you find any statistics?63% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

*Fyron stockpiles Mines, APBs, PPBs, and NSCs in a hidden location before any bans can take effect*

dogscoff

February 14th, 2003, 01:56 PM

Also, people under the age of 30 shouldn't be allowed to have Phased Beam weapons, they migh harm themself, how about that Fyron and P-D, can you find any statistics?
I disagree. I am a responsible Phased Beam owner. I have a 30kt phased beam generator which I keep locked up in my garage, and use occasionally to vapourise deer, rabbits and fowl for sport.

PsychoTechFreak

February 14th, 2003, 03:25 PM

You guys need to be disarmed! I am going to conference with GWB about that issue tonight.

EDIT: Uups, I cannot do that, I am German. So, probably I should ask Mr.Schroeder for a diplomatic solution.

[ February 14, 2003, 14:48: Message edited by: PsychoTechFreak ]

Growltigger

February 14th, 2003, 06:21 PM

I like Belgium, great beer, great food and really nice easy good looking women

Mephisto

February 14th, 2003, 07:58 PM

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
You guys need to be disarmed! I am going to conference with GWB about that issue tonight.

EDIT: Uups, I cannot do that, I am German. So, probably I should ask Mr.Schroeder for a diplomatic solution.Alles wird gut! Soooooo guuuuuttttt! *Lalala*

Ruatha

February 14th, 2003, 08:51 PM

Originally posted by dogscoff:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />
Also, people under the age of 30 shouldn't be allowed to have Phased Beam weapons, they migh harm themself, how about that Fyron and P-D, can you find any statistics?
I disagree. I am a responsible Phased Beam owner. I have a 30kt phased beam generator which I keep locked up in my garage, and use occasionally to vapourise deer, rabbits and fowl for sport.<hr /></blockquote>I've just signed a trade and research treaty with the Rabbits, we will also set up an science exchange so they will receive phased shields. They told me to tell you:
"Your garage shall burn with our vengeful fire"

minipol

February 15th, 2003, 01:06 AM

Originally posted by growltigger:
I like Belgium, great beer, great food and really nice easy good looking womenYeah, but the good thing is you get to go back to england after drinking, eating and sex while i'm stuck here

*minipol takes another beer to go with his fries*

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Growltigger

February 17th, 2003, 03:49 PM

Originally posted by minipol:
[QUOTE]Yeah, but the good thing is you get to go back to england after drinking, eating and sex while i'm stuck here *minipol takes another beer to go with his fries* http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Well, minipol, I think what you have is a case of sour grapes really. Drinking in England is OK but these days, you seem to be surrounded by loads of drunk loud 15 year old boys who have 3 pints of weak beer and then think they are Bruce Lee.... doesn't make for the most calming of night;s out, and the draft beers tend to be warm, flat and taste like they have been strained through a tramp's gusset.

Eating? well, we dont quite understand customer service the same way in England as you do in Belgium.. Case in point, I went out for dinner on Saturday, my chicken was undercooked (it was still frozen in the middle) and despite 4 returns back to the kitchen, it was still cold in the middle (and no I wasn't having cold chicken salad before anyone asks), I refused to eat it (on the basis that I dont eat frozen meat that has not been defrosted properly) and god, did I have an argument with the restuarant.... Service? you dont know you have it so good... give me Breydal de Coninck's in Bruges anyday!

As for the women, well, I have always been a fan of continental women, at least when there is no chance that the current Mrs GT will find out about it!!!

Minipol, I am happy to swap with you, I would live in Belgium anytime

Baron Munchausen

February 17th, 2003, 08:19 PM

Originally posted by dogscoff:
weapons 404 (http://www.coxar.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/)This page should be BANNED as inhumane. I might never recover. Do they do diaphragm transplants?

minipol

February 17th, 2003, 11:13 PM

Originally posted by dogscoff:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />
the link appears to be dead?
Are you etting a 404 error message?

*Dogscoff sniggers childishly

Take a closer look at that error message...<hr /></blockquote>I see. I work in IT so whenever i see an error page, i ignore it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif That's why i never saw or read the content

minipol

February 17th, 2003, 11:20 PM

Originally posted by growltigger:
Well, minipol, I think what you have is a case of sour grapes really. Drinking in England is OK but these days, you seem to be surrounded by loads of drunk loud 15 year old boys who have 3 pints of weak beer and then think they are Bruce Lee.... doesn't make for the most calming of night;s out, and the draft beers tend to be warm, flat and taste like they have been strained through a tramp's gusset.

Eating? well, we dont quite understand customer service the same way in England as you do in Belgium.. Case in point, I went out for dinner on Saturday, my chicken was undercooked (it was still frozen in the middle) and despite 4 returns back to the kitchen, it was still cold in the middle (and no I wasn't having cold chicken salad before anyone asks), I refused to eat it (on the basis that I dont eat frozen meat that has not been defrosted properly) and god, did I have an argument with the restuarant.... Service? you dont know you have it so good... give me Breydal de Coninck's in Bruges anyday!

As for the women, well, I have always been a fan of continental women, at least when there is no chance that the current Mrs GT will find out about it!!!

Minipol, I am happy to swap with you, I would live in Belgium anytimeYeah, you are right. When it comes to food and drinks, Belgium is one of the best places to go. As for women, well, i can't shop "around" either because i would be heavy mutilated and beaten to death and so on by mrs minipol http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif So i'm out of the loop as it where. Of course my eyes are still working http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
And the beer is kick*ss. Top of the line period. I once went to London, ordered a pint and it tasted like they had put grain in water, mixed it and there you go, you have a beer. NOT
Anyway, my mother remarried an English guy and he says there are nice English beers. But he lives in Belgium with my mum and only drinks Belgian beer so i don't trust him http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

dogscoff

February 18th, 2003, 02:13 AM

weapons 404 (http://www.coxar.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/)

minipol

February 18th, 2003, 02:54 AM

the link appears to be dead?

dogscoff

February 18th, 2003, 02:59 AM

the link appears to be dead?
Are you etting a 404 error message?

*Dogscoff sniggers childishly

Take a closer look at that error message...

Growltigger

February 18th, 2003, 12:12 PM

Minipol, you are right there to an extent. I think that commercialism has taken hold and it is therefore extremely difficult to find a decent pint of draught bitter in many English bars, especially the trendy ones.

Now, regional beers and bottled "designer" beers are another matter. Bitter is making a very welcome comeback in England and any supermarket generally has a good selection of decent regional bottled beers, which are generally categorised by high alcoholic strength, great taste and brilliant names!!

Saturday night for me wouldn't be the same without a few bottles of Spitfire Ale ("Downed all over Southern England, just like the Luftwaffe <cue abuse>", "No Fokker comes close"), Adnams Broadside, Old Speckled Hen and Old Peculiar....

Makes me thirsty just thinking about it

minipol

February 18th, 2003, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by growltigger:
Saturday night for me wouldn't be the same without a few bottles of Spitfire Ale ("Downed all over Southern England, just like the Luftwaffe <cue abuse>", "No Fokker comes close"), Adnams Broadside, Old Speckled Hen and Old Peculiar....

Makes me thirsty just thinking about itHmm, i like the sound of Spitfire Ale http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Funny names. I'll have to try them once i end up in England again. It's a shame the pound is so expensive for the moment compared to the euro.

minipol

February 19th, 2003, 01:23 AM

Canterbury is indeed one of the first places we stop when going to england.
I'll look for Shepherd Neame pubs next time i'll head over there. I might even end up in Manchester this year since my wifes sister went over there to work for Esso. She's the godmother, so she wants to see my son every now and then.
She asked if we could make it up there so who knows i might encounter a Spitfire Ale or Bishop's Finger sooner than i can imagine http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

A year or 2 ago i went to Singapore for my job and as usual, i wanted to try a local beer.
They recommended the Tiger and Tiger classic to me and the later was quite good actually.
That's the nice thing about travelling, there could always be some nice surprises.

Hehe, anyway, i just drank an achouffe (http://www.bottledbeer.co.uk/beer.asp?beerid=642) followed by a karmeliet (http://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/rate_results/202/656/)
Yes, life can be good.
I still have a big bottle of Duvel waiting for me but i'll leave it to ferment some more in the bottle.

Growltigger

February 19th, 2003, 02:03 AM

Well minipol, we are complaining in the UK about the strength of the euro vis a vis the pound..

Tell you what, when you make it to England, I shall happily buy you a beer...

Spitfire Ale and its sister, Bishop's Finger, come from a brewery based around Canterbury and as that is the nearest sizeable town to the Channel Ports, I suspect you will find these beers when you visit.. look for Shepherd Neame pubs

Growltigger

February 19th, 2003, 11:29 AM

Well, when you drive from Dover to Canterbury (about 25km) on the A2 road, about 6km short of Canterbury you will see a sign post for a village called "Bridge". That is where I grew up and my folks still live.

If you get time and what to see what a "proper" village local pub is like, you can pull off into Bridge and stop at a pub called "The Plough & Harrow", it does good Shepherd Neame beer and is about as "normal" an English pub as you get

I like Duval, but tend to drink Kwak and Straffe Hendrick more when I can get it

minipol

February 19th, 2003, 01:52 PM

I definitely have to try a local village pub once.
I might stop by bridge the.
Straffe Hendrik is brewn in Bruges where i was born. It's a good beer but a bit on the light side. Still, very good taste.
Have you ever drunk Kwak from their specific glasses? They are very nice.
I like the glasses from Barbar too.

Growltigger

February 19th, 2003, 01:57 PM

Bit on the light side?? gosh, the Bruin is what I drink and that is 8.5% alcohol, you cant have too many scoops of that before you are talking rubbish and catching the beer scooter home (via the kebab shop) of course.

I have drunk kwak out of the proper glasses, altho I didnt realise you picked up the wooden stand as well and got laughed at by some Belgians for taking the glass out of the mounting

havn't tried Barbar,

Do like Foufon though, tastes like a really rank cider

Growltigger

February 19th, 2003, 03:59 PM

Now that you mention it,I am sure someone told me once that some part or product of pigs was used as a clarifying agent in cider, maybe dry blackthorn just has a bit too much of that??!! eek

Minipol, I fully endorse Dogscoff's remarks re cider but add the health warning that the stuff farmers sell out of the back of their Landrovers (and do try Theobolds cider if you get the chance in Kent) tends to be a combination of battery acid and rocket fuel with a hint of apples. You have been warned. Too much scrumpy and you will end up with a silly accent and a tendency to morris dance

dogscoff

February 19th, 2003, 04:30 PM

Too much scrumpy and you will end up with a silly accent and a tendency to morris dance
Arr, oi don't know what 'ee be talkin' 'bout.

* 'scoff waves some hankies about.

I am sure someone told me once that some part or product of pigs was used as a clarifying agent in cider,
I used to know a guy who swore blind that they throw an entire dead cow into the vat when making cider. He was a dick though.

[ February 19, 2003, 14:32: Message edited by: dogscoff ]

klausD

February 19th, 2003, 05:38 PM

Belgium is also well known for its Mr. Dut. and his special relationship with children. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif (bad joke)

I cannot believe that it Last so long until he is judged by law. In the meantime I guess it is already some 4 years or so after they got him.

My advice to belgium judges is: "the time is over. No more games. Get off your arses and do your job..."

Like the rest of you I like also drinking belgium beer. (although I like the Austrian more)

bye
klausD

Growltigger

February 19th, 2003, 06:33 PM

Dont think I have ever had an Austrian beer (and I have been to Salzburg and Vienna a few times)

klausD

February 19th, 2003, 08:36 PM

Oh, there are very fine ones. Just try the "Stiegl" from Salzburg or the "Zipfer" from Linz (just to name some more popular)But as in many other countries there are alot of tiny private breweries which have excellent beer. Personally I like the czek beer best. I am living near the border to the czek nation and have easy access to it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

klausD

Puke

February 19th, 2003, 08:58 PM

My god, Minipol! Did you guys misplace a couple diamonds?

man, i wish i'd pulled that job. or at least held the door for a tip.

minipol

February 20th, 2003, 02:04 AM

I have drunk kwak out of the proper glasses, altho I didnt realise you picked up the wooden stand as well and got laughed at by some Belgians for taking the glass out of the mounting Yeah, it might be a bit strange in the beginning to use such a glass.
Just reminds me, there is a pub in Gent where you have to take out 1 shoe when you try a beer which has a special glass. That way, they want to assure you don't run away http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Foufon? Haven't heard of this one. Isn't that a framboise beer? I'm not that fond of framboise beers. Of course i'll drink them because a beer is better than no beer but they are not my favourite.

Askan Nightbringer

February 20th, 2003, 02:17 AM

I think you should rename this topic "Not so Crappy Belgium Beer".
I've only had the Chimay, Leffe Brune and Leffe Blonde (besides Stella) (all damn good beers too!). In England I've had lots of crap. I went to a pub and said...."I've come all the way to yeh old englande and all I've drunk is Stella and Kronebourg. Give me some of what the locals drink". They served me a pint of Carling, which reminds me of the crappy beers I had in the States (not the micro-brewery stuff, the main-stream stuff).
A Belgium Beer Cafe has opened in Sydney and I'm looking forward to trying Duvel, Lucifer, Forbidden Fruits and anything else with a mildly satanic name.

Askan

Growltigger

February 20th, 2003, 02:45 AM

Minipol, foufon is from the Brussels region and is apparently made out of apricots (I personally think it is made out of trappist monk's hessian underwear but that is just me).

Askan, anyone in England who gave you Carling needs slapping. Stick to the real ales, we have loads with satanic names but I like the ones that indicate the effect they will have on you eg Brain Buster, Old Dirigible, Old Regurgitator and Cripple Cock (well that is a cider)

dogscoff

February 20th, 2003, 02:49 AM

...."I've come all the way to yeh old englande and all I've drunk is Stella and Kronebourg. Give me some of what the locals drink".
Well, we don't make our own lagers, so drinking lager in England might be what the locals drink but it's not an example of English beer. You need to go for some of the curious small-brewery bitters, as mentioned by GT. Even the mass-produced stuff, like John Smiths and Boddingtons, might be interesting to a foreign palate if they don't happen to serve Old Grumblebelly or whatever strange-named real ale happens to be available.

That said, I imagine John Smith's etc is exported anyway, so you've probably tried it at home.

dogscoff

February 20th, 2003, 02:56 AM

(well that is a cider)
Oh yes, cider... I had almost forgotten about cider. The best way to drink cider over here is to find some farmer's market or rural summer festival or something in the middle of nowhere and find some farmer who's selling the stuff out the back of his landrover. Nearly all of the mass produced stuff is fizzy crap (and am I the only one who thinks Dry Blackthorn tastes of bacon?) but some of it is drinkable, especially the bottled stuff.

Askan Nightbringer

February 20th, 2003, 04:54 AM

Originally posted by growltigger:
Askan, anyone in England who gave you Carling needs slapping. Stick to the real ales, we have loads with satanic names but I like the ones that indicate the effect they will have on you eg Brain Buster, Old Dirigible, Old Regurgitator and Cripple Cock (well that is a cider)
I got a Carling in a place called The Dreadnaugth in Surrey Quays. I would have loved to give the guy a slapping but he seemed quite rough http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif
Don't think I could ever drink anything called Cripple Cock, brewer's droop is bad enough but Cripple Cock sounds damn painful http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Originally posted by dogscoff:
Well, we don't make our own lagers, so drinking lager in England might be what the locals drink but it's not an example of English beer. You need to go for some of the curious small-brewery bitters, as mentioned by GT. Even the mass-produced stuff, like John Smiths and Boddingtons, might be interesting to a foreign palate if they don't happen to serve Old Grumblebelly or whatever strange-named real ale happens to be available.

That said, I imagine John Smith's etc is exported anyway, so you've probably tried it at home.

I've had a Boddington. I also had something called a Winter Warmer which was quite nice, and heavy on the alcohol too which is good when your in London and finding it hard to get drunk before the pub closes. Never heard of John Smith, I'll have a look at the local bottle shop and see if I can find it.

I enjoyed a couple of Hoegaardens today at lunch. It was very tasty, just unfortunate that at the price a bottle was I could have two and half schooners of Tooheys.

Askan

minipol

February 20th, 2003, 10:06 AM

Originally posted by Askan Nightbringer:
A Belgium Beer Cafe has opened in Sydney and I'm looking forward to trying Duvel, Lucifer, Forbidden Fruits and anything else with a mildly satanic name.

AskanWe have a beer called satan too. It's quite tasty. Problem is that all those nice beers are quite expensive abroad. I should set up a SEIV-beer-export-line to ship beer abroad to SEIV players http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

minipol

February 20th, 2003, 10:09 AM

Originally posted by growltigger:

Minipol, I fully endorse Dogscoff's remarks re cider but add the health warning that the stuff farmers sell out of the back of their Landrovers (and do try Theobolds cider if you get the chance in Kent) tends to be a combination of battery acid and rocket fuel with a hint of apples. You have been warned. Too much scrumpy and you will end up with a silly accent and a tendency to morris danceLOL !!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif My wife likes cider very much (and england also). I wonder what effect "farmers cider" would have on her. Hmmm..... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

minipol

February 20th, 2003, 10:12 AM

Originally posted by klausD:
Belgium is also well known for its Mr. Dut. and his special relationship with children. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif (bad joke)

I cannot believe that it Last so long until he is judged by law. In the meantime I guess it is already some 4 years or so after they got him.

My advice to belgium judges is: "the time is over. No more games. Get off your arses and do your job..."

Like the rest of you I like also drinking belgium beer. (although I like the Austrian more)

bye
klausDYes the Mr. Dut case is very very sad. Unbelievable. You could also call this typical for the Belgian justice system :-(
Anyway what good beers do they have in Austria.
And if you say you like Austrian beers more than Belgian ones, how many of the more than 1000 beers have you tried? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif (just kidding)

Puke: yes, you can say that again. Somebody is out there have a lot of fun, drinking nice beers.
It's quite unbelievable this could have happened.

[ February 20, 2003, 08:13: Message edited by: minipol ]

dogscoff

February 20th, 2003, 10:13 AM

We have a beer called satan too. It's quite tasty. Problem is that all those nice beers are quite expensive abroad. I should set up a SEIV-beer-export-line to ship beer abroad to SEIV players
Hmm, some kind of organised SEIV goods distribution system is definitely needed. We're always discussing stuff available in country X but not Y. We could ship decent beers to the states, and bring back CDs from Shrapnel without the usual shipping costs. Oh, and sweet tea. And DVDs of films/ tv shows not yet available in one place or the other.

Minipol: The effects (of cider) on your wife would be either very very good for your relationship or very very bad http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

And who is this Mr Dut you keep talking about? It's pretty obvious what he's been up to but what was he famous for before that?

[ February 20, 2003, 08:14: Message edited by: dogscoff ]

Growltigger

February 20th, 2003, 03:51 PM

My local pub does draft "Duval" and a dutch beer called "Silvester" - each is �3.70 a pint (about $6 or AUD14) but you really dont need very many before you end up "squaring the hypoteneuse" in the loo (you know when you are so drunk that you have to lean your head on the urinal wall in order to pee straight!)

Wardad

February 20th, 2003, 06:42 PM

Belgium Jokes
You know when you've been in Belgium too long when ...

1. You always stop your car for traffic from even the tiniest little road from the right.

2. You consider breaking the speed limit normal, and honk and flash at people who don't.

3. If you have had less than 10 beers you drive your car home, but you still don't indicate when turning or respect the speed limit.

4. If you have a car, you consider any other means of transportation slightly suspicious.

5. You know the names of at least 10 different sauces for chips.

6. You catch yourself ordering a "Supplement Frites" with every single dish you have in any kind of restaurant.

7. You give other foreigners lectures on the difference between fake and real monastery-produced beer.

8. You don't drink the Last two centilitres of a Westmalle trippel.

9. You never wear any colour brighter than dark green. You automatically assume anyone who does is either a. Dutch
b. Scandinavian
c. American or
d. Extremely childish or rude

10. Just one day without rain even in July and August can make you happy.

11. On Saturday morning and Sunday evening of any sunny summer-weekend you accept spending more than three hours stuck in traffic jams on motorways in order to get to and from 100 km's of coastline that are completely cramped with high-risers 20 meters from the beach.

12. You don't mind that bouncers have to be given at least 20 francs when you leave a disco as a bribe for letting you get in next time

13. You consider it normal that even the train to and from the airport has announcements in both Dutch and French, but not in English. You don't react when all the foreigners storm out of the train at the announcement of Brussels North when coming from the airport.

14. You do all your grocery shopping in either GB or Delhaize, and you don't understand anyone who shops in the other supermarket chain.

15. You consider it normal to go out to a restaurant at least five times per week.

16. You think it is logical that shops are closed Sundays and evenings, but buy the booze you consume in night-shops between 4 and 5 AM Sunday morning.

17. You use and understand abbreviations like NMBS/SNCB, MIVB/STIB and SMAP/OMOB.

18. You only buy the most up-market chocolate brands, and feel sorry for the geeks who buy "white products".

19. You start going to Quick instead of McDonalds and you have actually tasted the Quick Bearnaise Burger.

20. You think it looks nice when the type of pavement tiles in front of each house are different, and you don't mind falling over lopsided tiles occasionally.

21. You take dog-**** on the pavement as just another challenge on you daily walks.

22. You keep three colours of bin-bags for different kinds of waste, and remember which days to put out which kind of bag on the pavement in front of your house.

23. You don't mind when most streets are full of bags that have been put out on the wrong day, not even in the summer when the combination of the sun and intrepid dogs makes it a very interesting experience.

24. You automatically assume that everyone else speaks at least three Languages, but refuse to speak more than one yourself.

25. You have given up on any sensible political discussion on the language divide in general and the Brussels Capital Region and the future of Belgium in particular.

26. You consider politicians and the police worse than criminals, with the possible exception of paedophiles.

27. You consider it perfectly normal when the names of towns on road signs change from French to Dutch and vice versa every 5 or 10 kilometres of motorway.

28. You have understood that the hassle of monthly visits to the municipality to obtain papers or residence permits is reserved for recently arrived foreigners who move every 6 months, and you therefore don't complain over your own annual visit where you wait in line for an hour or two.

Puke

February 20th, 2003, 09:20 PM

Originally posted by growltigger:
My local pub does draft "Duval"Duvel? you have Duvel on draft? my god man, how do i emmigrate?

minipol

February 21st, 2003, 12:31 AM

wardad: great list except those aren't jokes. A lot of stuff in that list is plain true. To illustrate one point: driving. An American colleague of mine came to Belgium and wanted to visit Bruges. No probs, we made arrangements to leave after work so we would have time enough to visit Bruges. When she got in the car and we were cruising at 140-150 ks (86-93mph) an hour towards Bruges, she was literally shocked by that speed while other cars where still overtaking us http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

But this is changing as the policy is controlling far more often, the fines have gone up and they use a lot of unmanned camera's.

It's a good thing our ancestors started making beer. Bless them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

I wonder if one of the products you will be able to trade in the upcoming Starfury is going to be beer. I think there should be galactic beer.

minipol

February 21st, 2003, 12:33 AM

Originally posted by Askan Nightbringer:
How much would it cost to mail a case/cart/2 dozen?I have no idea. I expect that it wouldn't be that cheap. Plus it needs to get there in 1 piece. Having no beer is bad but receiving a case full of broken bottles of beer must be one the worst sights there can be http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif NOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Askan Nightbringer

February 21st, 2003, 02:14 AM

Originally posted by minipol:
We have a beer called satan too. It's quite tasty. Problem is that all those nice beers are quite expensive abroad. I should set up a SEIV-beer-export-line to ship beer abroad to SEIV players http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Well after my 375ml Hoegaarden cost me $8.50 AUD at lunch, and then tonight I was drinking Tooheys New at $2.50 AUD a 425ml Schooner I'de be happy to be involved in a beer export line. How much would it cost to mail a case/cart/2 dozen?

Askan

$1 AUD = $0.60 USD for conVersion sake. Yeh I know beer is cheap in Australia and I should quit complaining.

dogscoff

February 21st, 2003, 02:45 AM

Yeah, Hoegaarden (my favouritest beer) is upwards of 4 quid (ie getting on for 10 US dollars) for a pint (half-litre) in Bournemouth. Worth it though=-)

Far better for me to zip across the channel and buy a car-load from a hypermarket in France at about 50p (1 US dollar) per pint.

Wardad

February 21st, 2003, 05:45 PM

Minipol, I'm glad you enjoyed it.

Now for something more outragous....

***
U.S. Secretary Defense Donald Rumsfeld apologized today for referring to France and Germany as an "Axis of Weasels."

"I'm sorry about that Axis of Weasels remark," said Mr. Rumsfeld.

"I didn't mean to dredge up the history France and Germany share of pathetic compliance with ruthless dictators." The Defense Secretary said he was "way out of bounds" with the comments. "I should have known better than to remind people that these two nations--which live in freedom thanks only to the righteous might of America, Britain and their allies--that these nations are morally and politically bankrupt, and have failed to learn the lessons of history," he said.

"It really was an inappropriate thing to say--you know, the Axis of Weasels thing. I really should not have called them the Axis of Weasels.I think it's the 'Weasels' part that was most offensive...you know, when I said that France and Germany form an Axis of Weasels. Of course, I'm so sorry."

"I want it to be known that no other man holds the weasel in as high a regard as I do, and I'll be the first to point out the crucial role this noble creature plays in our ecosystem. I went way over the line comparing the weasel to a bunch of rude, unwashed, leftist Euroweenie surrender monkeys who change their underwear once a month whether they need to or not. And I just did it again, didn't I? I just insulted the monkeys. I'm quitting while I'm ahead."
***

Please no throwing rocks... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif
I don't believe Rumsfeld is sincere. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif