OT: Alien Contact [Archive] - .com.unity Forums

Atrocities

February 26th, 2003, 08:10 PM

Do you think that it is possible for Earth to have been or is going to be visited by an Alien race?

What do you think would be our response now given all of the hype that Sci-fi shows, books, and movies has generated. Would we be open minded and accept them as friends, if they come in peace, or would we be secptical and be threatened by them?

First and foremost, I do not believe that Earth has ever been visited by Aliens, nor do I ever believe we will be. I do believe that life may exsist else where in the universe, but I do not believe it is wide spread. I feel that Earth is a fragile bio-sphere, and that all life on Earth is a trillion to one happenstance.

If for some reason we were contacted by alien life, then I think we would fear it, but accept it. I think a few nutball goobers might try and mock it up, but overall the people of our world would accept the new reality without wanting to blow it to hell.

That is say for the ultra fanatical religious types and ultra paranoid "the sky is falling" fruit cakes of the world.

Instar

February 26th, 2003, 08:23 PM

Well, if there is life out there (a possibility, because even if the odds are 1 to a trillion, there are billions of stars), it will be unlikely that we will contact it anytime soon. Due to the incredible distances involved, signals, let alone spacecraft, (radio, laser, etc) take centuries if not thousands of years to get here, because of the limit of the speed of light.
If there is a way around the speed of light, I dont know. String theory holds that we exist in 10 dimensions, maybe we can circumvent the speed of light by altering these other dimensions (if string theory is true, mind you)

gregebowman

February 26th, 2003, 08:24 PM

If an alien race ever did try to contact us, I think that the movies portrayal of what the military might do is probably closer to the truth than I'd like to imagine. I'd like to believe that there is other life out there, but to tell you the truth, I'm more Scully than Mulder. I'd have to see/hear/taste/feel it to know that it was true. This reminds of a time I saw something that might have been an UFO back when I was a kid. I was out at night with my Boy Scout troop, and we were doing a night hike, when we noticed a fast moving light in the sky. We all thought it was a satellite, but as it approached the horizon, it did a 90 degree turn in a split second. There was no gradual turn. Even now that I live in Florida and there's all of those sightings in the panhandle portion of the state, that's the only time I've seen a UFO. But I'd love to see one again.

Wardad

February 26th, 2003, 08:30 PM

Beam me up Scotty. There is no intelligent life down here.

Greybeard

February 26th, 2003, 08:32 PM

I don't believe that alien races exist, at least not on a level with humans. This would be inconsistent with a God who created mankind to be in His likeness, and be special in all of creation.

However, I do believe that there are beings who exist in another dimension, the spirit world, who we usually can't see (we may be able to feel their presence though). There are also methods of contact between the dimensions. I have been very interested in string theory because it may be an explanation to this relationship. It may be possible that all UFO sightings, etc. could be explained by contact between the spirit world and humanity.

Greybeard

QuarianRex

February 26th, 2003, 08:44 PM

I don't think that there would be any real problem with alien contact, provided we are contacted by sufficiently intelligent aliens.

I mean, according to most movies aliens are apparently idiot savants. They can figure out how to travel interstellar distances but they can't figure out how to open a dialogue BEFORE trying to land on the Whitehouse lawn (thus provoking tanks to shoot at it, denying us a cure for cancer, etc., etc.).

Any alien race that managed to say hello before trying to land (a.k.a. invading Earth) would receive a rather warm (if stunned) welcome. As for the military, they might get a little twitchy but there is really nothing they can do against orbital bombardment and they know it. Despite the cliche of the texan general who is aching to nuke something, these are professionals who will not start a war that they have no hope of winning, and no idea of how to fight.

Putting outer space into strategic and tactical consideration would require a greater shift in military doctrine than was required when tanks replaced the cavalry (or any other major advance in the art of war).

oleg

February 26th, 2003, 08:44 PM

Originally posted by Greybeard:
I don't believe that alien races exist, at least not on a level with humans. This would be inconsistent with a God who created mankind to be in His likeness, and be special in all of creation.

...
GreybeardYour argument is fallacious: You question the ability of Allmighty to create the very similar race on any other celectial body. After all, Star Treck proved we can interbreed with Klingons, Vulcans, etc. proving we all are the same kind ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Ragnarok

February 26th, 2003, 08:55 PM

There is no other life out there, if there is, it is only microscopic and not intelligent. Nor have we ever been visited by aliens.
We as humans are unique in the universe, and always will be.

Along with Greybeards thought, well not along with it, but sort of against it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I don't believe there is another "spirit realm". All those people you see claming to talk to the dead, or talk to the spirits of ones or read the future or crap like that, I like to call that demons at work.
But like I said, that is how I feel and I'm sure not everyone agrees with that. Which is fine. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Wardad

February 26th, 2003, 09:10 PM

Originally posted by QuarianRex:
...As for the military, they might get a little twitchy but there is really nothing they can do against orbital bombardment and they know it...Some how my disturbed mind conjured up a movie image of a gangster trying to ride a horse. He gets so frustrated and points his gun at the horses head. Well, of course the animal doesn't recognize the threat and doesn't respond.
So maybe we are to stupid to be conquered yet.

Aloofi

February 26th, 2003, 09:25 PM

I don't have an opinion about if alien races exists or not. I really don't.
But if they exist its very unlikely that they would have the means to communicate with us.
In theory, our galaxy might be swarming with life, and even a few intelligent species, or maybe our galaxy its just a barren piece of real estate. Or maybe there is nothing out there and even the stars are an optical ilusion.....
Who knows?

oleg

February 26th, 2003, 09:33 PM

Originally posted by Wardad:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by QuarianRex:
...As for the military, they might get a little twitchy but there is really nothing they can do against orbital bombardment and they know it...Some how my disturbed mind conjured up a movie image of a gangster trying to ride a horse. He gets so frustrated and points his gun at the horses head. Well, of course the animal doesn't recognize the threat and doesn't respond.
So maybe we are to stupid to be conquered yet.<hr /></blockquote>don't remember exact quote or who said it but it is something like: "the exact proof that there is an intelligent life out there is that no one tried to contact us " http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Puke

February 26th, 2003, 10:14 PM

i think that was from a calvin and hobes comic strip, as calvin is looking at a sawed off tree stump, littered with empty beer cans.

Fyron

February 26th, 2003, 10:16 PM

There is little to no possibility of being visited by an alien race because it would be quite impractical to get to earth from another star system. It is impossible to travel faster than light, or even anywhere near the speed of light. It would take centuries to get here from the nearest stars, and there is no way those stars could support life on any planets that could be around them. Alpha Centauri and its companion stars probably don't even have any planets, much less ones that could support life. So, any life-supporting planets are going to be much farther away, making a trip here even less practical. Warp points (or frequent worm holes, which is what warp points would be, really) do not exist in reality, so that nullifies the possibility of bypassing most of interstellar space on the trip here.

Phoenix-D

February 26th, 2003, 10:20 PM

Fyron, you're being so much of a skeptic you're starting to look like a speculator yourself.

We have not tried to accelerate past C. We don't -know- for sure what happens. Yes, we have theory. Yes, have have tests that support it, and observations that do the same. But we haven't done it. Remember how the sound barrier got its name.

The same applies even more so to other FTL methods, especially the ones you mentioned. Lack of proof is not proof of abscene.

Phoenix-D

Suicide Junkie

February 26th, 2003, 10:40 PM

I'm sure there are a lot of wacky crackpots trying to literally accelerate past C, at the moment.

Then there's the serious scientists with their super-high energy particle accelerators who don't even bother with the idea.

Fyron

February 26th, 2003, 10:51 PM

There is a world of difference between the limits of the sound barrier and the speed of light.

ZeroAdunn

February 26th, 2003, 10:52 PM

Wow... this thread is a hotplate ready to explode. Nice to see nobody stepping on anybody elses toes though.

Fyron is quite the skeptic. Amazing isn't it?

As for faster then light, you could travel faster then light, because light has variable velocity and as such you just slow down some light.....

Yah, I know, it is stupid but I had to say it.

As for science, remember this is current science we talk about, there was a time when current science told us the world was flat (I love cliches) We can't really talk about the future in certainties because nobody, unless your phsycic, in which case, what are next weeks lotery numbers?

Fyron

February 26th, 2003, 10:56 PM

What light has variable velocity?

rdouglass

February 26th, 2003, 10:57 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
What light has variable velocity?I thought all light has variable velocity - it depends on the medium. That is the whole principle behind a prism IIRC....

Aloofi

February 26th, 2003, 10:58 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
There is a world of difference between the limits of the sound barrier and the speed of light.Yeah, I agree.
If the research of "faster than sound" would be 5K research points then the research of "Faster than Light" would be somwhere around 5B.
Who knows, maybe there are other barriers before the speed of light. Or maybe the speed of light is not a barrier. One thing is sure, we are light years away from an engine that come even close.

Wardad

February 26th, 2003, 10:59 PM

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
I'm sure there are a lot of wacky crackpots trying to literally accelerate past C, at the moment...One Word: C++

Fyron

February 26th, 2003, 11:01 PM

Originally posted by rdouglass:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
What light has variable velocity?I thought all light has variable velocity - it depends on the medium. That is the whole principle behind a prism IIRC....<hr /></blockquote>No, light has constant velocity. Different wavelengths travel at marginally different speeds, but it is all constant. Light seeming to slow down in water and such is an optical illusion.

Fyron

February 26th, 2003, 11:04 PM

Originally posted by Aloofi:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
There is a world of difference between the limits of the sound barrier and the speed of light.Yeah, I agree.
If the research of "faster than sound" would be 5K research points then the research of "Faster than Light" would be somwhere around 5B.
Who knows, maybe there are other barriers before the speed of light. Or maybe the speed of light is not a barrier. One thing is sure, we are light years away from an engine that come even close.<hr /></blockquote>Going the speed of light requires infinite energy and gives you infinite mass. Also, the closer you get to the speed of light (as you are not a sub-sub atomic particle), the slower you go in relation to the rest of the universe. This is because time seems to slow down for you, while the rest of the universe goes along at its normal rate. You would see yourself going really fast, but an outside observer in a stationary reference frame (such as the universe) would see you going slower and slower.

rdouglass

February 26th, 2003, 11:05 PM

I would disagree IF, light has constant velocity in a vacuum. That is represented by C IIRC. (It's been a long time since physics class). Also, I thought that was one of the reasons why light fits the wave theory as well as the particle theory - because it has variable velocity depending on the medium...

Fyron

February 26th, 2003, 11:05 PM

Originally posted by Wardad:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
I'm sure there are a lot of wacky crackpots trying to literally accelerate past C, at the moment...One Word: C++<hr /></blockquote>LOL! Too bad you can't upgrade the speed of light like you can computer coding Languages. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Fyron

February 26th, 2003, 11:06 PM

Originally posted by rdouglass:
I would disagree IF, light has constant velocity in a vacuum. That is represented by C IIRC. (It's been a long time since physics class). Also, I thought that was one of the reasons why light fits the wave theory as well as the particle theory - because it has variable velocity depending on the medium...No, the light only seems to slow down in a thicker medium. It does not actually slow down. It has only been 26 hours since the Last time I was in a physics class. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ February 26, 2003, 21:07: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

rdouglass

February 26th, 2003, 11:07 PM

To Quote:

To be precise, what we usually call the "speed of light" is really the speed of light in a vacuum (the absence of matter). In reality, the speed of light depends on the material that light moves through. Thus, for example, light moves slower in glass than in air, and in both cases the speed is less than in a vacuum.

Fyron

February 26th, 2003, 11:09 PM

Yeah, I can make up random quotes too. What is your point?

rdouglass

February 26th, 2003, 11:12 PM

My point is, just do a Google search on the "speed of light" and you'll see MANY references that say you're incorrect and that light does vary in speed...

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SpeedOfLight/speed_of_light.html

rdouglass

February 26th, 2003, 11:13 PM

Maybe you meant "C" is a constant.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Greybeard

February 26th, 2003, 11:15 PM

Originally posted by oleg:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Greybeard:
I don't believe that alien races exist, at least not on a level with humans. This would be inconsistent with a God who created mankind to be in His likeness, and be special in all of creation.

...
GreybeardYour argument is fallacious: You question the ability of Allmighty to create the very similar race on any other celectial body. After all, Star Treck proved we can interbreed with Klingons, Vulcans, etc. proving we all are the same kind ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <hr /></blockquote>If you read carefully, I didn't question the Almighty's ability. I just said it was inconsistent with His nature. God can do whatever he wants. However, he has revealed himself in his word and in nature, and I believe that he is consistent and doesn't change....Greybeard

Fyron

February 26th, 2003, 11:15 PM

Light seems to slow down because the different wavelengths travel at slightly different speeds. When a beam white light (which consists of all colors/wavelengths of visible light) goes from a thin medium to a thick medium (such as from air to water), the faster wavelengths of light seem to have a longer distance to travel, as they are on the outside of the angle of refraction. The slower wavelenghts are on the inside of the turn, and so seem to travel a shorter distance. This gives the appearance of the light slowing down, when in actuality, it does not. I forget the exact mathematical proof that shows that the light did not slow down any.

Fyron

February 26th, 2003, 11:17 PM

Originally posted by Greybeard:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by oleg:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Greybeard:
I don't believe that alien races exist, at least not on a level with humans. This would be inconsistent with a God who created mankind to be in His likeness, and be special in all of creation.

...
GreybeardYour argument is fallacious: You question the ability of Allmighty to create the very similar race on any other celectial body. After all, Star Treck proved we can interbreed with Klingons, Vulcans, etc. proving we all are the same kind ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <hr /></blockquote>If you read carefully, I didn't question the Almighty's ability. I just said it was inconsistent with His nature. God can do whatever he wants. However, he has revealed himself in his word and in nature, and I believe that he is consistent and doesn't change....Greybeard<hr /></blockquote>Should I even go there... yes. The Christian God (and all other religions) is a creation of mankind to explain things that we can not explain otherwise.

[ February 26, 2003, 21:18: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

rdouglass

February 26th, 2003, 11:20 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
I forget the exact mathematical proof that shows that the light did not slow down any.I don't want to sound crass, but I would be very interested in seeing some evidence to support this postulation. I consider myself well-read and have never encountered any reading to support your position.

EDIT: Yeah, that 'changing medium' thing - its called the 'refractive index'....

[ February 26, 2003, 21:21: Message edited by: rdouglass ]

Aloofi

February 26th, 2003, 11:20 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
(and all other religions) is a creation of mankind to explain things that we can not explain otherwise.[/QB]Oh man, I've heard that so many times.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Let me post somthing to light it up a little.

http://mandyfanatic.com/pics/new7.jpg

Greybeard

February 26th, 2003, 11:21 PM

Originally posted by Ragnarok:
Along with Greybeards thought, well not along with it, but sort of against it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I don't believe there is another "spirit realm". All those people you see claming to talk to the dead, or talk to the spirits of ones or read the future or crap like that, I like to call that demons at work.
But like I said, that is how I feel and I'm sure not everyone agrees with that. Which is fine. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Rag: I agree that the activities you list aren't good. However, I belive that there are angels and demons, and yes, the devil. Although we can't see these spiritual beings, they are around us and influence us for good and evil. I also believe that some evil people are aided by demons, just as believers can be aided by God's angels. A person must be very careful to not get caught up in the spiritual realm, as it is easy to be deceived....Greybeard

Fyron

February 26th, 2003, 11:23 PM

Originally posted by rdouglass:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
I forget the exact mathematical proof that shows that the light did not slow down any.I don't want to sound crass, but I would be very interested in seeing some evidence to support this postulation. I consider myself well-read and have never encountered any reading to support your position.

EDIT: Yeah, that 'changing medium' thing - its called the 'refractive index'....<hr /></blockquote>It was in my physics book Last year, which is generally accepted as the best physics text book out there. Unfortunately, I only have volume one of that book now, so I can't look it up to relate it to you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

It is all about reference frames. From our reference frame, the light appears to slow down when going into a thicker medium. But from the reference frame of the light, it has not decreased in speed at all. That is what matters more. Our perception is inherently flawed anyways. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Fyron

February 26th, 2003, 11:24 PM

Originally posted by Greybeard:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Ragnarok:
Along with Greybeards thought, well not along with it, but sort of against it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I don't believe there is another "spirit realm". All those people you see claming to talk to the dead, or talk to the spirits of ones or read the future or crap like that, I like to call that demons at work.
But like I said, that is how I feel and I'm sure not everyone agrees with that. Which is fine. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Rag: I agree that the activities you list aren't good. However, I belive that there are angels and demons, and yes, the devil. Although we can't see these spiritual beings, they are around us and influence us for good and evil. I also believe that some evil people are aided by demons, just as believers can be aided by God's angels. A person must be very careful to not get caught up in the spiritual realm, as it is easy to be deceived....Greybeard<hr /></blockquote>I welcome you to join us in the 21st century if you would like to. Its up to you, really. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Mephisto

February 26th, 2003, 11:26 PM

I don't know exactly about the SoL thing but there are many pages out there. Try this one:

http://www.what-is-the-speed-of-light.com/refractive-index.html

Suicide Junkie

February 26th, 2003, 11:26 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
No, light has constant velocity. Different wavelengths travel at marginally different speeds, but it is all constant. Light seeming to slow down in water and such is an optical illusion.Same thing.
The initial wavefront moving thorugh the material goes right through at the speed of light.
The interference from the secondary EM waves generated by the atoms jostled by the main wave adds up to produce a new wave whos peaks and valleys change position slower than you'd expect.

Look at standing waves on a rope as a slowed down example. You start waving the rope (attached to a wall or a friend on the other side)
You see a succession of waves travel down the rope, hit the wall, and then reflect back, and start to interfere with the later waves you made.
When the two waves interfere in the rope, the total result is a wave that looks like it isn't moving at all.
The energy is still moving along at the normal speed, but the interference causes the illusion of slower (or faster (!)) velocities.
Given appropriate conditions, you can actually make the wave peaks appear to "travel" faster than C, but the far side of the apparatus will not light up until enough time has passed for a beam at speed C to travel the length of the apparatus.

Fyron

February 26th, 2003, 11:27 PM

Why the heck does Atrocities keep creating threads that spiral out of control? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Ragnarok

February 26th, 2003, 11:27 PM

The Christian God (and all other religions) is a creation of mankind to explain things that we can not explain otherwise.So you're saying there is no God? That mankind made Him up? All you have to do is look around, look at the evidence, look through his Word (the Bible), and it is plain as day that there is a God. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Fyron

February 26th, 2003, 11:28 PM

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
No, light has constant velocity. Different wavelengths travel at marginally different speeds, but it is all constant. Light seeming to slow down in water and such is an optical illusion.Same thing.
The initial wavefront moving thorugh the material goes right through at the speed of light.
The interference from the secondary EM waves generated by the atoms jostled by the main wave adds up to produce a new wave whos peaks and valleys change position slower than you'd expect.

Look at standing waves on a rope as a slowed down example. You start waving the rope (attached to a wall or a friend on the other side)
You see a succession of waves travel down the rope, hit the wall, and then reflect back, and start to interfere with the later waves you made.
When the two waves interfere in the rope, the total result is a wave that looks like it isn't moving at all.
The energy is still moving along at the normal speed, but the interference causes the illusion of slower (or faster (!)) velocities.
Given appropriate conditions, you can actually make the wave peaks appear to "travel" faster than C, but the far side of the apparatus will not light up until enough time has passed for a beam at speed C to travel the length of the apparatus.<hr /></blockquote>Finally, someone joining the conversation that knows more physics than I do instead of someone that knows less. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Ragnarok

February 26th, 2003, 11:29 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Why the heck does Atrocities keep creating threads that spiral out of control? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif He's just good at it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Fyron

February 26th, 2003, 11:29 PM

Originally posted by Ragnarok:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />The Christian God (and all other religions) is a creation of mankind to explain things that we can not explain otherwise.So you're saying there is no God? That mankind made Him up? All you have to do is look around, look at the evidence, look through his Word (the Bible), and it is plain as day that there is a God. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <hr /></blockquote>From the smiley, I conclude that that is meant as a joke. Otherwise...

Ragnarok

February 26th, 2003, 11:30 PM

Aloofi

February 26th, 2003, 11:31 PM

Originally posted by Greybeard:

I agree that the activities you list aren't good. However, I belive that there are angels and demons, and yes, the devil. Although we can't see these spiritual beings, they are around us and influence us for good and evil. I also believe that some evil people are aided by demons, just as believers can be aided by God's angels. A person must be very careful to not get caught up in the spiritual realm, as it is easy to be deceived....GreybeardAre you serious?
You aren't trolling on us, aren't you?
Remember that the definition of trolling is to post and defend an idea in which you don't really believe just for your own amusement.

Fyron

February 26th, 2003, 11:44 PM

Originally posted by Ragnarok:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Ragnarok:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />The Christian God (and all other religions) is a creation of mankind to explain things that we can not explain otherwise.So you're saying there is no God? That mankind made Him up? All you have to do is look around, look at the evidence, look through his Word (the Bible), and it is plain as day that there is a God. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <hr /></blockquote>From the smiley, I conclude that that is meant as a joke. Otherwise...<hr /></blockquote>No, from the smiley I mean I am not heated in the discussion and not about to argue the point.
I firmly believe what I posted.<hr /></blockquote>In that case... why do you think the Bible is any evidence? Why is it (and hence Christianity) better than other religions? What makes it right, and everything else wrong?

The "evidence" in the Bible is only corroborated by the world around you because the authors of the Bible were good authors and wrote it as such.

[ February 26, 2003, 21:49: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Ragnarok

February 26th, 2003, 11:55 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
In that case... why do you think the Bible is any evidence? Why is it (and hence Christianity) better than other religions? What makes it right, and everything else wrong?Because if you look into the Bible you will see that everything that it has said will happen, has indeed happened. There's not a single thing that was fortold in the Bible that didn't come true. So this being the case, why would any question the content in it?
I'm not going to argue the facts with you simply because I realize that I believe what I believe, and you believe what you believe.

Fyron

February 26th, 2003, 11:56 PM

Umm... no. There are tons of things the Bible says happened and will happen that did not ever happen.

I would question the Bible's content because I am a thinking being. Everyone should question any book's content. Blindly accepting anything is horribly, horrible wrong. Even worse than having drastically wrong beliefs about the nature of reality, by many orders of magnitude.

[ February 26, 2003, 21:57: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Ragnarok

February 26th, 2003, 11:57 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Umm... no. There are tons of things the Bible says happened and will happen that did not ever happen.Give me 1 example.

Aloofi

February 26th, 2003, 11:58 PM

Originally posted by Ragnarok:
Because if you look into the Bible you will see that everything that it has said will happen, has indeed happened. There's not a single thing that was fortold in the Bible that didn't come true. So this being the case, why would any question the content in it?
I'm not going to argue the facts with you simply because I realize that I believe what I believe, and you believe what you believe.Are you familiar with the term of "Post-Diction" as opouse to pre-diction?

Fyron

February 26th, 2003, 11:59 PM

Originally posted by Ragnarok:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Umm... no. There are tons of things the Bible says happened and will happen that did not ever happen.Give me 1 example.<hr /></blockquote>Give me examples of supposedly accurate predictions the Bible made. You made the claim that it has made accurate predictions, yet you have not defended that at all. The burden of proof currently rests on you.

(I edited the Last post, so you may have missed the edit, by the way.)

[ February 26, 2003, 21:59: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Aloofi

February 27th, 2003, 12:03 AM

Originally posted by Ragnarok:
[Give me 1 example.From the new testament: "There will not remain any stone of this temple"

Last time i check the Western Wall (wailing wall) was still there.

Ragnarok

February 27th, 2003, 12:06 AM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Ragnarok:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Umm... no. There are tons of things the Bible says happened and will happen that did not ever happen.Give me 1 example.<hr /></blockquote>Give me examples of supposedly accurate predictions the Bible made. You made the claim that it has made accurate predictions, yet you have not defended that at all. The burden of proof currently rests on you.

(I edited the Last post, so you may have missed the edit, by the way.)<hr /></blockquote>Yup, I missed the edit.
And I don't just "blindly" accept what the Bible says. I didn't just read the Bible and say, "hey, this sounds good, I'm going to believe this." I had to prove to myself that what I was reading was correct. I did, and still do, much study and research in order to continue proving to myself that what I believe is in fact the truth.

I can give you lots of examples.
Just to list a couple:
When man believe that the world was flat, the Bible clearly stated it was round. (Not a issue of prediction but showing how if man would have looked into the Bible before thinking the world was flat, they would've realized it wasn't.)

It was foretold that Jerusalem would be destroyed in one night by the Babylon army, those that survived would be carried off into exile for 70 years and then return to their homeland to restore their city. This in fact did happen.

It was foretold that the Messiah (Jesus) would come through the line of David. If you look at Jesus' liniage you will find that he did indeed come through the line of David.

These are but a few examples to back up what I'm saying. I shift the burden of proof over to you.

Aloofi, I am very much aware of "Post-dition" and "pre-diction," and the Bible is not a book of post-diction. It was written well over 2000 years ago and has not been changed one bit.

Ragnarok

February 27th, 2003, 12:08 AM

Originally posted by Aloofi:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Ragnarok:
[Give me 1 example.From the new testament: "There will not remain any stone of this temple"

Last time i check the Western Wall (wailing wall) was still there.<hr /></blockquote>If you study that verse a bit more, you'll come to see that you are taking that verse a bit too literally.
You will also see that the meaning of the verse indicates that the city will be completely and utterly destroyed.

[ February 26, 2003, 22:09: Message edited by: Ragnarok ]

Aloofi

February 27th, 2003, 12:13 AM

Originally posted by Ragnarok:
Aloofi, I am very much aware of "Post-dition" and "pre-diction," and the Bible is not a book of post-diction. It was written well over 2000 years ago and has not been changed one bit.Nah, that guy didn't come from King David, since genealogy back them was kept only through males and if he is not the son of a man.......

None of the "predictions" of the new testament have ever ocurred. Not even one.

Ragnarok

February 27th, 2003, 12:16 AM

Originally posted by Aloofi:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Ragnarok:
Aloofi, I am very much aware of "Post-dition" and "pre-diction," and the Bible is not a book of post-diction. It was written well over 2000 years ago and has not been changed one bit.Nah, that guy didn't come from King David, since genealogy back them was kept only through males and if he is not the son of a man.......

None of the "predictions" of the new testament have ever ocurred. Not even one.<hr /></blockquote>You are correct in saying he is not the son of man. God put the embryo(sp?) into his mother Mary. His adoptive father (Joseph) was through the line of David. Thus, he could be said to have come thorugh the line of King David.

Ragnarok

February 27th, 2003, 12:18 AM

Originally posted by Aloofi:
None of the "predictions" of the new testament have ever ocurred. Not even one.By your saying that, is basically saying that proven secular history did not even happen. The fall of Babylon for example.

Aloofi

February 27th, 2003, 12:21 AM

Originally posted by Ragnarok:
[]If you study that verse a bit more, you'll come to see that you are taking that verse a bit too literally.
You will also see that the meaning of the verse indicates that the city will be completely and utterly destroyed.If you don't take thing literaly then anything can mean anything.
For example, did you know that the New Testament quotes from the Book of Enoch, a book known to have been written centuries after the events it describes and that is not part of the Old Testament as if it were part of it?.
Check the letter of John if you don't believe me.

Baron Munchausen

February 27th, 2003, 12:21 AM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Why the heck does Atrocities keep creating threads that spiral out of control? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Now there is a good question...

He does have a talent for pushing buttons, doesn't he? This thread is only a few hours old and it's pages long already!

Fyron

February 27th, 2003, 12:21 AM

When man believe that the world was flat, the Bible clearly stated it was round. (Not a issue of prediction but showing how if man would have looked into the Bible before thinking the world was flat, they would've realized it wasn't.)Actually, a lot of people did believe that the earth was round long before the Bible was ever written.

It was foretold that the Messiah (Jesus) would come through the line of David. If you look at Jesus' liniage you will find that he did indeed come through the line of David.
Ok. Now you are taken what is written in the Bible as proof of the Bible's validity. That is a huge logical fallacy.

It was foretold that Jerusalem would be destroyed in one night by the Babylon army, those that survived would be carried off into exile for 70 years and then return to their homeland to restore their city. This in fact did happenBabylon fell into ruin milennia before the Bible was written. How could a Babylonian army sack a city after Babylon is gone?

Aloofi, I am very much aware of "Post-dition" and "pre-diction," and the Bible is not a book of post-diction. It was written well over 2000 years ago and has not been changed one bit.Sure it has. Books are always changed at least a little bit in translations, whether it is intentional or not.

If you study that verse a bit more, you'll come to see that you are taking that verse a bit too literally.
You will also see that the meaning of the verse indicates that the city will be completely and utterly destroyed.So now you alter what the Bible means to fit in with the facts of what happened later. Very good evidence, if you ask me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif Randomly varying interpretations of the Bible can not be used to say whether it is right nor not.

You are correct in saying he is not the son of man. God put the embryo(sp?) into his mother Mary. His adoptive father (Joseph) was through the line of David. Thus, he could be said to have come thorugh the line of King David.Well... in the Reality that the rest of us live in, that doesn't happen. Everyone has a human father and human mother. Some guy named Jesus most likely lived, but Joseph was either his biological father, or someone that Mary cheated with is his biological father. Immaculate conception is 100% impossible, and you are using flawed evidence to support flawed claims. Another logical fallacy.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Aloofi:
None of the "predictions" of the new testament have ever ocurred. Not even one.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By your saying that, is basically saying that proven secular history did not even happen. The fall of Babylon for example.No it doesn't. There is no basis of comparison between the two things.

[ February 26, 2003, 22:30: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Ragnarok

February 27th, 2003, 12:23 AM

Originally posted by Aloofi:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Ragnarok:
[]If you study that verse a bit more, you'll come to see that you are taking that verse a bit too literally.
You will also see that the meaning of the verse indicates that the city will be completely and utterly destroyed.If you don't take thing literaly then anything can mean anything.
For example, did you know that the New Testament quotes from the Book of Enoch, a book known to have been written centuries after the events it describes and that is not part of the Old Testament as if it were part of it?.
Check the letter of John if you don't believe me.<hr /></blockquote>Anything and not mean anything. That is only if you look at one verse and one verse only to try and get the meaning of it. To understand the Bible you must look through the whole thing and derive how it is speaking. Some parts of the Bible are literal, others are sybolic, it all depends on the context it is in.

Aloofi

February 27th, 2003, 12:25 AM

Originally posted by Ragnarok:
[QBBy your saying that, is basically saying that proven secular history did not even happen. The fall of Babylon for example.[/QB]The fall of Babylon was long before the New Testament.
I said: None of the predictions from the New Testament.

The Old Testament is too old to try to put it against history. Not good records back then.

Ragnarok

February 27th, 2003, 12:26 AM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Actually, a lot of people did believe that the earth was round long before the Bible was ever written.Yes, some people did believe this. But mankind in general was what I was driving at.

Ok. Now you are taken what is written in the Bible as proof of the Bible's validity. That is a huge logical fallacy.My mistake. But did come true, did it not?
I gave other examples to make up for that.

Sure it has. Books are always changed at least a little bit in translations, whether it is intentional or not.Granted. But those changes that are unintentionally made are not huge changes that will change the Bibles meaning all together.

Originally posted by Aloofi:
The Old Testament is too old to try to put it against history. Not good records back then.In the new testiment parts of it are still being fulfilled down to this day. The new testiment brought out that we would see multitudes of bad things happening in the Last days. These things are indeed happening. You may say that they have always happened. Granted they have, but not to the extent that they are right now.

Stop posting until I am done with my post.Sorry.

Well... in the Reality that the rest of us live in, that doesn't happen. Everyone has a human father and human mother. Some guy named Jesus most likely lived, but Joseph was either his biological father, or someone that Mary cheated with is his biological father. Immaculate conception is 100% impossible, and you are using flawed evidence to support flawed claims. Another logical fallacy.It is perfectly possible when you are dealing with the Almighty himself. He can do anything he pleases.

Like I said before, you believe what you believe, and likewise with me. I do not wish to argue/discuss this any further.

This has totally changed topic from where this thread started. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
But I have to take off for a while. I will be back later tonight.

[ February 26, 2003, 22:33: Message edited by: Ragnarok ]

Fyron

February 27th, 2003, 12:29 AM

Stop replying until I am done with my post.

edit: ok, now that post is done.

[ February 26, 2003, 22:30: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Aloofi

February 27th, 2003, 12:32 AM

Guys, do you want another mandy to light it up? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

http://mandyfanatic.com/MadTV16.jpg

Ragnarok

February 27th, 2003, 12:35 AM

Originally posted by Aloofi:
Guys, do you want another mandy to light it up? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Thanks!
Doesn't really help but hey. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
As far as I'm concerned this topic is over. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif This thread can now go back to discussing aliens.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Fyron

February 27th, 2003, 12:36 AM

Yes, some people did believe this. But mankind in general was what I was driving at. The people living around the people writing the Bible, sure. But, many ancient cultures believed the world was round. Pretty much all of the people in those cultures believed that. Mankind in general was torn 50/50 between the two beliefs.

My mistake. But did come true, did it not?Almost all (if not all) of that stuff was written after the fact. It was not prediction, it was postdiction.

I gave other examples to make up for that.No they don't. They are all flawed.

In the new testiment parts of it are still being fulfilled down to this day. The new testiment brought out that we would see multitudes of bad things happening in the Last days. These things are indeed happening. You may say that they have always happened. Granted they have, but not to the extent that they are right now.

This has totally changed topic from where this thread started. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
But I have to take off for a while. I will be back later tonight.[/QB]No they aren't. What are some examples of these things that are supposedly happening?

Baron Munchausen

February 27th, 2003, 12:36 AM

Originally posted by Atrocities:
Do you think that it is possible for Earth to have been or is going to be visited by an Alien race?

What do you think would be our response now given all of the hype that Sci-fi shows, books, and movies has generated. Would we be open minded and accept them as friends, if they come in peace, or would we be secptical and be threatened by them?

First and foremost, I do not believe that Earth has ever been visited by Aliens, nor do I ever believe we will be. I do believe that life may exsist else where in the universe, but I do not believe it is wide spread. I feel that Earth is a fragile bio-sphere, and that all life on Earth is a trillion to one happenstance.

If for some reason we were contacted by alien life, then I think we would fear it, but accept it. I think a few nutball goobers might try and mock it up, but overall the people of our world would accept the new reality without wanting to blow it to hell.

That is say for the ultra fanatical religious types and ultra paranoid "the sky is falling" fruit cakes of the world.Whoooeee, you have a talent for starting discussions. Have you ever considered getting a job as a talk show host? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I think it's barely possible that earth has been visited in the past by 'aliens' from other solar systems. Given the difficulty of travel between the stars, especially the time scale of it, it would most likely have been in an era when there weren't even 'proto' humans to witness it. The 'little green men' would most likely have seen dinosaurs and ferns when they visited. And it's not likely that any other 'visitors' will arrive in any historical time that we can imagine.

Of course, statistics are only attempts to model reality. What really happens is what really happens and that's why bookies and insurance adjusters often have to pay up. If we saw real live 'aliens' arrive I think it'd be a huge shock to the world. Yes, many people would panic, and many people would proclaim the 'new age' of enlightened life in the galactic community. Which reaction was justified would depend on the actual character of the aliens, of course. But the actual long-term effect on our civilization would probably be more like the effect that 'discovery' has had on the various isolated primitive tribes that we've heard about in the Last century or so. Have you ever noticed how that goes? They learn about the huge, complex, confusing world out here and their own world-view is bLasted to dust. They lose motivation and incentive in their old system, as their religion and 'economy' such as it is collapses. I think something similar would happen to the whole world if we were suddenly exposed to a new context including intelligent life beyond earth. Not just because various 'fundamentalists' would be confounded in their view of humans on earth as somehow 'special' either. I think it would rattle the materialists as much as the fundamentalists.

For this reason, I think the 'conspiracy theories' about government cover-up of alien contact is not so outlandish as some have assumed. IF there were in fact clear evidence of extra-terrestrial civilizations I think the govt. would do just that out of fear of our society collapsing. They too have seen what happened to various isolated cultures here on earth when they were 'discovered' by the larger world...

[ February 26, 2003, 22:40: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

Fyron

February 27th, 2003, 12:36 AM

Fyron

February 27th, 2003, 12:39 AM

Originally posted by Ragnarok:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Aloofi:
Guys, do you want another mandy to light it up? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Thanks!
Doesn't really help but hey. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
As far as I'm concerned this topic is over. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif This thread can now go back to discussing aliens.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif <hr /></blockquote>Well that's nice. Just abandon the discussion so you can't have your views questioned, and can go on happily living with them, even though they could be wrong. That is probably worse than that other horribly horribly wrong thing that happened earlier. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Ragnarok

February 27th, 2003, 12:48 AM

Well that's nice. Just abandon the discussion so you can't have your views questioned, and can go on happily living with them, even though they could be wrong. That is probably worse than that other horribly horribly wrong thing that happened earlier. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I'm not abandoning the discussion. If you wish I will return later and discuss further. But I see no point in it as neither one of us are getting anywhere. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
I've had my views questioned many times before and it has never stopped me from beliving them.

Almost all (if not all) of that stuff was written after the fact. It was not prediction, it was postdiction.How can you prove it was postdiction?
Again, if you examine each book of the Bible, and really look for dates and so forth, you can come out with a date of when the book was started and completed.

No they don't. They are all flawed.So you're saying that Babylon never did fall to the assyrian army?

No they aren't. What are some examples of these things that are supposedly happening?2nd Timothy 3: 1-5 has some. Earthqacks, wars, famines, pestilences, nation rising against nation, etc.

Ok, now I'm really leaving, but if you wish, I will return tonight. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

minipol

February 27th, 2003, 01:14 AM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
In that case... why do you think the Bible is any evidence? Why is it (and hence Christianity) better than other religions? What makes it right, and everything else wrong?

The "evidence" in the Bible is only corroborated by the world around you because the authors of the Bible were good authors and wrote it as such.[/QB]Hhhmm. You also referred to a book (a physics book) as and i quote: "It was in my physics book Last year, which is generally accepted as the best physics text book out there. "
So if it's ok for you to refer to a book, why can't Ragnarok do it. Just because your book is a scientific book and his the bible doesn't mean that your book is more inclined to be true.
History is full of scientific books that years later (or centuries later) proved to be utter crap.
And it's always easy to question a book:
"why do you think that physics book is any evidence? Why is it better than other physics book? What makes it right, and everything else wrong?"
Don't get me wrong i love science and i do believe that what you are saying about the speed of light is true, it just don't agree with the way you are trying to show there is no evidence that the bible is true (or wrong for that matter).
Any book can be full of crap.

And i personally don't believe that there is a good or upper being. When we die, there's nothing. The big void. The big zero.

minipol

February 27th, 2003, 01:19 AM

i forgot: as for aliens, i do believe they are out there but i don't think we will see one very soon. I once saw a program on that string theory you guys where talking about earlier and it was amazing. 10 dimensions. go figure. to much for my brain to handle. I have trouble with 3 dimensions after a few beers. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Fyron

February 27th, 2003, 01:35 AM

How can you prove it was postdiction?
Again, if you examine each book of the Bible, and really look for dates and so forth, you can come out with a date of when the book was started and completed. How can you prove it is prediction? That is the claim on which you base your argument. You can not prove this, so your argument has no base.

So you're saying that Babylon never did fall to the assyrian army?That was not an example you gave. You said that the new testament said that Jerusalem would fall to Babylon. In fact, you said this:

It was foretold that Jerusalem would be destroyed in one night by the Babylon army, those that survived would be carried off into exile for 70 years and then return to their homeland to restore their city. This in fact did happen.There was nothing about Assyrians.

2nd Timothy 3: 1-5 has some. Earthqacks, wars, famines, pestilences, nation rising against nation, etc.Oh, so he said that some very common disasters that had happened in the past would happen again? That is like saying the sun will rise tomorrow. Well duh. It doesn't make it impressive at all, and does not mean that anything else in the Bible is true just because of that.

[ February 26, 2003, 23:40: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Fyron

February 27th, 2003, 01:52 AM

Hhhmm. You also referred to a book (a physics book) as and i quote: "It was in my physics book Last year, which is generally accepted as the best physics text book out there. "
So if it's ok for you to refer to a book, why can't Ragnarok do it. Just because your book is a scientific book and his the bible doesn't mean that your book is more inclined to be true.
History is full of scientific books that years later (or centuries later) proved to be utter crap.
And it's always easy to question a book:
"why do you think that physics book is any evidence? Why is it better than other physics book? What makes it right, and everything else wrong?"
Don't get me wrong i love science and i do believe that what you are saying about the speed of light is true, it just don't agree with the way you are trying to show there is no evidence that the bible is true (or wrong for that matter).
Any book can be full of crap.First off, there is a huge difference between subjective truths and objective truths. Objective truths are verifiable outside of the context of the beliefs and reactions of a single person. Subjective truths are not, and completely depend on the beliefs of the person in question.

The formulae and such in my Physics book have valid mathematical proofs that show that they are correct. Examining the proofs for error turned up nothing, so the forumulae and then the theorems and statements based on those formulae have a valid basis. So, I can conclude that they are more or less accurate, and are objective instead of subjective. The Bible lacks anything like this. It is based off of subjective opinion used as fact and evidence, which simply does not work.

The physics book could be full of crap, but at least it is not based off of crap, it is based of of logical reasoning. Frankly, the basis of the Bible is (to use your words http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ) crap. A book based off of flawed subjective truths can not be right. A book based off of valid objective reasoning (such as my physics book) at least has a valid basis. It is very unlikely that we are completley wrong about the basic principles on which the information in the physics book is founded. If we were, we would not have these nice computers to be used to post on this forum. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif The information presented in my physics book was used to design them, and the internet, so it looks to me as if it is not crap. However, the Bible does lack these objective facts that the physics book is based off of. It's basis is entirely subjective. So, it can not be taken as true, because it's claims have no logical proof. You have to take a huge leap of faith to believe the Bible. You do not have to take such a leap to believe my physics book.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by minipol:
i forgot: as for aliens, i do believe they are out there but i don't think we will see one very soon. I once saw a program on that string theory you guys where talking about earlier and it was amazing. 10 dimensions. go figure. to much for my brain to handle. I have trouble with 3 dimensions after a few beers. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif <hr /></blockquote>I think it is supposed to be 11, actually. Of course, it is an extreme theory, and has little chance of ever being proven satisfactorily. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ February 26, 2003, 23:54: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

minipol

February 27th, 2003, 01:59 AM

Frankly, the basis of the Bible is (to use your words http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ) crap.I didn't say that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I think it is supposed to be 11, actually. Of course, it is an extreme theory, and has little chance of ever being proven satisfactorily. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif 11? Wow. It looked promosing though. In that program they said that suddenly a lot of "unsolved" mysteries of science could be solved by it or at least when they recalculated stuff it now worked http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
I have no idea what to expect from it but it was quite complicated. Interesting though.

Andr�s

February 27th, 2003, 02:16 AM

Discussing god existence, the accuracy of the bible, and even all this fight religion vs science, I have my own point of view but I will not join that discussion, just say you have a religious opposition to the existence of aliens and step aside for those who like to see scientific proof before believing something.

Considering the numbers of stars out there, even if a small fraction is similar to our sun and even a small fraction of them is orbited by a planet similar to Earth, there still remain billions of Earth-like worlds only in the Milky Way.
It would be very selfish to believe that Earth is the only inhabited planet in the universe.
Almost sounds like Paulo III telling Copernicus that earth is the center of the universe and it doesn't move. You agree Earth orbits around the sun don't you?

And if they exist and have the same dreams about the stars we have, I think they'll eventually try to reach other worlds, the same way I believe we'll eventually do that ourselves.

I don�t know enough about relativistic physics to seriously discuss if you can move faster than light or not. Most respected scientists claim you can�t, and I�ll take their word.
So unless a warp points, warp-drives, hyperdrives or other bizarre sci-fi twist of physics is possible, travel between even close systems will take several centuries or even millennia.
But that is not proof that interstellar travel is impossible, it just indicates that it takes a long time.

If someone is arriving Earth now, they must have departed from their home planet long before our industrial era, and of course our first radio transmissions haven't reach there yet.

They can have advanced astronomy and be able to determine that Earth is a planet likely to hold life. There must be thousands of planet that fit the basic profile of our planet (assuming it�s similar to theirs and that's how they pinpointed Earth). It must have been a shot in the dark.

For such a long journey, their ship can be a small one carrying a handful of crewers in some sort of animated suspension.
Or it can be a large ship, carrying enough population to live several generations on board during the trip.
They will be cut out of their home, only a few thousand at best alone in a world inhabited by many billions.
Not enough for any war, at least if the objective is conquest even if they're armed with better weapons than ours, so they�ll surely try to be friendly towards the natives.

But of course all of this is a lie, aliens have been among us for a long time.
Not only they can travel several light years in days but they can also shift between dimensions.
Our governants have been replaced by alien replicants, and they are trying to make us fight each other to weaken us and facilitate their invasion plans....

Fyron

February 27th, 2003, 02:30 AM

Originally posted by minipol:
[QB] <blockquote>quote:<hr />Frankly, the basis of the Bible is (to use your words http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ) crap.I didn't say that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <hr /></blockquote>You used "crap". I was just being consistent, instead of saying something like "unsound".

Fyron

February 27th, 2003, 02:37 AM

Andres:
Such travel is impractical- not impossible- and would take many generations of lives of the ship's crew (so their children's children many times over would reach earth, not the original crew), or advanced cryogenics to put them in stasis for several millennia. When they got back, their home would be nothing like what it was when they left. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Ragnarok

February 27th, 2003, 04:02 AM

Just to clear up a few points before I do as Andres said and step aside for others in the conversation.

How can you prove it is prediction? That is the claim on which you base your argument. You can not prove this, so your argument has no base.
Again, if you read the Bible, then look at secular history, you will see that the Bible does in fact predict future events, well actually, it's not the Bible that does this, God is. The Bible was inspired by God to be written. But we won't go into that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
But let me say this, since you say that I cannot prove my argument, then neither can you. You yourself have yet to prove that it is
postdiction. Therefore, your argument has no base either.

That was not an example you gave. You said that the new testament said that Jerusalem would fall to Babylon. In fact, you said this:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />
quote:It was foretold that Jerusalem would be destroyed in one night by the Babylon army, those that survived would be carried off into exile for 70 years and then return to their homeland to restore their city. This in fact did happen.There was nothing about Assyrians.<hr /></blockquote>Simple human mistake. The events were Jerusalem fell to Babylon, and then Babylon fell to Assyria. I simple forgot which example I used. But either one would be relevent as both were foretold years in advance.

Oh, so he said that some very common disasters that had happened in the past would happen again? That is like saying the sun will rise tomorrow. Well duh. It doesn't make it impressive at all, and does not mean that anything else in the Bible is true just because of that.No, let me clearify what I was saying. Yes, these events took place in the past, no doubt about that, and it would be quite easy to say they will happen in the future, but what Timothy said was indicating that there would be more of these events taking place in the time of the end. If you do a bit of research you can find that there have been more earthquakes since 1914 up to now, then there was from the beginning of time. That is true. I forget the numbers but it's ALOT more then there used to be.

Ok, now I have said my peace and will do as Andres said, I have a religious opposition to the arguments you provided.
It was a enjoyable conversation to say the least. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Fyron

February 27th, 2003, 04:27 AM

Again, if you read the Bible, then look at secular history, you will see that the Bible does in fact predict future events, well actually, it's not the Bible that does this, God is. The Bible was inspired by God to be written. But we won't go into that. Kind of odd when you consider that the Bible was written well after all of those historical events. None of this historical events were predicted at all. The authors of the Bible simply wrote it after the fact, and wrote it as if they were predicting the future.

But let me say this, since you say that I cannot prove my argument, then neither can you. You yourself have yet to prove that it is
postdiction. Therefore, your argument has no base either.My "argument" is that you are wrong. You have to prove yourself right for me to be wrong. Since you can't prove yourself right (as all of your evidence is wrong), my argument is true. You are wrong. There is little extra work going from showing that your arguments are wrong to saying that you are wrong.

Simple human mistake. The events were Jerusalem fell to Babylon, and then Babylon fell to Assyria. I simple forgot which example I used. But either one would be relevent as both were foretold years in advance. Except that the Bible was written after those events took place. Nothing was predicted.

No, let me clearify what I was saying. Yes, these events took place in the past, no doubt about that, and it would be quite easy to say they will happen in the future, but what Timothy said was indicating that there would be more of these events taking place in the time of the end. If you do a bit of research you can find that there have been more earthquakes since 1914 up to now, then there was from the beginning of time. That is true. I forget the numbers but it's ALOT more then there used to be. First off, that is 100% wrong. There were a lot more earthquakes from 4 billion BC to 1914 than there have been since 1914 to today. We were not around to record them all, and not all of the earthquakes that happened when we were around were recorded, and so are not known about now. Nowadays, we can record every little earthquake that occurs, so you get the illusion that there are more earthquakes.

Ok, now I have said my peace and will do as Andres said, I have a religious opposition to the arguments you provided. It was a enjoyable conversation to say the least. Basically what you are saying is "I have no real proof, but I know I am right, because I am, and the Bible says so." All of your arguments have been rather circular, and prove absolutely nothing. The biggest problem for you is that the Bible was written well after the real historical events took place, not before.

Phoenix-D

February 27th, 2003, 04:39 AM

Fyron, all I'm going to say, AGAIN, is this:

Lack of proof is not proof of abscence.

Well, one other thing. If you are talking about God or a god-like being, science does not work; you can't prove or disprove. Science is based on observing the natural world an determing how it works. These beings, almost by definition, could -change- those rules at a whim. Just because it is impossible now and was impossible before doesn't mean they couldn't make it possible then.

re: the sound barrier vs speed of light
Oh? Why is that then.

Phoenix-D

DavidG

February 27th, 2003, 04:40 AM

Well pretty interesting discussion (although not much to do with Alien Contact http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ) I'd be very interested in knowing exactly what passages of the bible supposedly predict future events and what those events are. If there is one thing I know about the bible it is than many passages are open to wildly different interpretations. (For example the passage that prohibts Jehovahs from accepting blood transfustions)

Ragnarok

February 27th, 2003, 04:47 AM

Kind of odd when you consider that the Bible was written well after all of those historical events. None of this historical events were predicted at all. The authors of the Bible simply wrote it after the fact, and wrote it as if they were predicting the future.And what says these events weren't predicted? And no, you saying it does not count. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

My "argument" is that you are wrong. You have to prove yourself right for me to be wrong. Since you can't prove yourself right (as all of your evidence is wrong), my argument is true. You are wrong. There is little extra work going from showing that your arguments are wrong to saying that you are wrong.But you are saying, "I am right because I say everything was postdicted." You have yet to back that up either. Therefore I am right in saying your arguments are not based either. For you to argue that I am wrong you must prove it as well, which you have failed to do thus far.

First off, that is 100% wrong. There were a lot more earthquakes from 4 billion BC to 1914 than there have been since 1914 to today. We were not around to record them all, and not all of the earthquakes that happened when we were around were recorded, and so are not known about now. Nowadays, we can record every little earthquake that occurs, so you get the illusion that there are more earthquakes.You are taking the points that I bring out and turning them into something I did not mean. It may be my fault for not being more clear but still.
Sure from 4Billion BC to 1914 there were alot. But I wasn't speaking of that time frame. I'm speaking of when mankind was put on the earth to 1914.

Basically what you are saying is "I have no real proof, but I know I am right, because I am, and the Bible says so." All of your arguments have been rather circular, and prove absolutely nothing. The biggest problem for you is that the Bible was written well after the real historical events took place, not before.I have given real proof in that the predictions that were written in the Bible were intold fulfilled in secular history. You have denied this by saying that these things were written after the fact but that is not the case.
You are providing no evidence yourself in order to prove me wrong, you are simply saying that I am wrong because you say so.
Therefore, since you have yet to truely prove one of my points wrong your arguments to do just that have failed and it is a draw. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Edit: I am finally done with my part of the discussion. Neither one of us are getting anywhere with it so lets move on. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Edit2: And also I believe the forum guildlines prohibited getting into Bible discussions on this forum so I will refrain from doing just that. If others wish to continue conversation feel free.

[ February 27, 2003, 02:52: Message edited by: Ragnarok ]

Andr�s

February 27th, 2003, 04:58 AM

I agree it�s impractical, but it was also impractical to send a ship to the moon.
IMO that�s the most plausible way aliens could get here.
Yes anyone embarking on such a mission would be saying goodbye to his/her/other(what sex can aliens have) home planet forever. I see that even if their cryogenics were good enough to send them and take them back during a lifetime, so long after they departed the world they return to would be as alien for them as any other they can visit.
I�m sure that if we had the technology to build such a ship, we�d do it. And it wouldn�t be so difficult to find volunteers for a 1 way trip to another planet.
If aliens are anything like us in that regard, they�ll do that too.

About multiple dimensions, excuse me if this has nothing to do with what you were talking about:
The same way you cannot place a 2D figure on a 1D line, or a 3D body in a 2D plane, you cannot put a 4D hyperbody in 3d space.
There can be infinite 1D lines in a 2D plane, infinite 2D planes in a 3D space and infinite 3D spaces in a 4D hyperspace.
Mathematically there can be any number of dimensions.

Unfortunately as we're 3D beings our minds have been designed to think in 3D, it's impossible for us to imagine a 4th spatial dimension.
Now imagine that the 1D line is not straight or that the 2D plane is crumpled. For someone moving along the line, or someone moving in that plane, it is impossible to see his universe is crumpled, you need to step out of their universe to see that. And when you do that, you can see that the shortest way between two points in the 1D or 2D universe is a straight line that jumps out of the crumpled universe.
This is the original concept of hyperspace, assuming that our 3D space is crumpled within a 4D hyperspace, and that you can find a shortcut by moving in straight line outside the universe.
Can anyone remember who was the sci-fi author that invented this?

DavidG

February 27th, 2003, 05:10 AM

Originally posted by Ragnarok:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Kind of odd when you consider that the Bible was written well after all of those historical events. None of this historical events were predicted at all. The authors of the Bible simply wrote it after the fact, and wrote it as if they were predicting the future.And what says these events weren't predicted? And no, you saying it does not count. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
<hr /></blockquote>Wow you guys are just getting confusing now. I'm sure IF will have an answer but it would seem to me the fact (which you don't seem to be disputing) that the bible was written after these events would sort of mean it didn't predict them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

[ February 27, 2003, 04:02: Message edited by: DavidG ]

Taera

February 27th, 2003, 06:40 AM

the post is long and i dont want to read the whole 6 pages, i'll just post my opinion on the original topic.

In my opinion there IS intelligent life out there, though i dont believe in super-intelligent aliens because evolution simply cannot go that fast (remember - they couldnt have evolved before galaxy was born) and it seems that human evolution was hastened on its own (if you think about it humans are highly unsuitable for life in wilderness without intelligence - no protection, no real claws or anything). Which means there is no way we're going to see them any soon. Aliens, if they are, are most likely more primitive than us or at the same level. By the time we meet them (if we do - most likely all we would get is a radio signal) i presume we would have a space force (you dont have to go FTL to get to mars, for example) and it would be a little more difficult. That is, of course, given that Earth and its population can survive that long (resources are running low... and governments are going crazy)

DavidG

February 27th, 2003, 06:50 AM

Originally posted by Taera:
[QBAliens, if they are, are most likely more primitive than us or at the same level[/QB]Well I don't thikg I agree with this. The galaxy is what... 4 billion years old? (or is that just the Earth?? ) Just think how much we have advanced in the Last oh say 200 years. Either way we have advanced a hell of a lot in a time space that on a cosmic scale is extremely small.

[ February 27, 2003, 04:53: Message edited by: DavidG ]

Fyron

February 27th, 2003, 06:53 AM

Originally posted by DavidG:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Taera:
[QBAliens, if they are, are most likely more primitive than us or at the same levelWell I dont thing I agree with this. The galaxy is what... 4 billion years old? (or is that just the Earth?? ) Just think how much we have advanced in the Last oh say 200 years. Either way we have advanced a hell of a lot in a time space that on a cosmic scale is extremely small.[/QB]<hr /></blockquote>The Galaxy is something like 6-8 billion years old, and the Universe is between 12 and 20 billion years old. The Milky Way was around long before Sol and the Earth came about.

Fyron

February 27th, 2003, 06:53 AM

And what says these events weren't predicted? And no, you saying it does not count.
Because IT WAS WRITTEN AFTER THOSE EVENTS TOOK PLACE. Maybe you will see that if I capitalize it.

But you are saying, "I am right because I say everything was postdicted." You have yet to back that up either. Therefore I am right in saying your arguments are not based either. For you to argue that I am wrong you must prove it as well, which you have failed to do thus far. Sure I have. If you take a look at my previous sentence, that pretty much sums up how you are wrong.

You are taking the points that I bring out and turning them into something I did not mean. It may be my fault for not being more clear but still.
Sure from 4Billion BC to 1914 there were alot. But I wasn't speaking of that time frame. I'm speaking of when mankind was put on the earth to 1914.Ignoring the erroneous "put on the earth" bit... there were many more earthquakes from about 2 million BC (when the first ancestors of modern humans evolved) to 1914 than there have been from 1914 until the present day.

I have given real proof in that the predictions that were written in the Bible were intold fulfilled in secular history. You have denied this by saying that these things were written after the fact but that is not the case.
You are providing no evidence yourself in order to prove me wrong, you are simply saying that I am wrong because you say so. Umm... Babylon was long gone by the time the Bible was written. Basic elementary school history lessons will tell you that. Your real proof is not real at all, and certainly not proof. It is completely wrong. The New Testament was mostly written about the time that this Jesus guy was alive, which is millennia after Babylon fell. It is millennia after they sacked Jerusalem. Since you are a Christian, the New Testament is the most important part of the Bible to you, so it is the most relevant part. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Therefore, since you have yet to truely prove one of my points wrong your arguments to do just that have failed and it is a draw.Very basic knowledge of history is enough to know that your arguments are wrong. I guess not everyone learned stuff in school. Should I go get a 6th grade history book for you to prove these things?

Edit: I am finally done with my part of the discussion. Neither one of us are getting anywhere with it so lets move on.Only because you ignore basic historical facts so that your beliefs remain valid. Noone knows exactly when past events occured, yet you seem to claim that you do, and you know when they happened. Does the Bible tell you when they happened?

Edit2: And also I believe the forum guildlines prohibited getting into Bible discussions on this forum so I will refrain from doing just that. If others wish to continue conversation feel free.Forum guidelines? I have not heard of those. I have also seen a number of discussions similar to this one on Shrapnel over the years that were not moderated away. There is no problem continuing this discussion.

Can anyone remember who was the sci-fi author that invented this?No clue. I don't think Asimov used hyperspace, and Lucas didn't really create anything original. I don't read a lot of older sci-fi, so I couldn't tell you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Originally posted by Ragnarok:
quote:

Kind of odd when you consider that the Bible was written well after all of those historical events. None of this historical events were predicted at all. The authors of the Bible simply wrote it after the fact, and wrote it as if they were predicting the future.

And what says these events weren't predicted? And no, you saying it does not count.

Wow you guys are just getting confusing now. I'm sure IF will have an answer but it would seem to me the fact (which you don't seem to be disputing) that the bible was written after these events would sort of mean it didn't predict them. That is indeed a fact. It is a fact that Rags enjoys disregarding, as it directly contradicts his beliefs. Can't possibly look at facts that would do that, now can we?

To Rags:
Me saying it comes from going through school and becoming educated enough to have a basic understanding of when historical events took place. If I were a historian, I could probably cite you references that would dispel that myth that you believe about the Bible predicting actual events quite quickly.

Taera

February 27th, 2003, 07:02 AM

i dont like getting into this topic but i'll just post my thoughts. dont go too far people, and keep it civil.

it depends what bible are you talking about.
the original bible (forgive me for not knowing the name you call it on English) which i studied in Israel, AFAIK, had been written in parts. Near a thirdth of the books were written as events happened, another thirdth was written after things happened and the Last one was written from stories and memories. That is what i remember, i might be wrong. I know at least one book though which is proven to have been written as events in it took place. I cant remember the name now and wouldnt be able to translate it into English anyways.

Desdinova

February 27th, 2003, 07:03 AM

it is entirely plausible that aliens could/would be more advanced than us. we have made huge leaps in technology in the Last 50-100 years. but there is a period in our history called the dark ages in which knowledge was repressed, iirc, it Lasted about 400-500 years. if that either did not occur or did not Last as long then current technology could be even greater than it is now. so if an alien society was about to avoid it then they could/would be more advanced than us technologically.

Taera

February 27th, 2003, 07:09 AM

makes me think and i agree with you desdinova. if aliens could have avoided the genetical will of people to spit into their neighbour's soup (quote from somewhere) - or put his head on lance, if its Dark Age - their advancements could have went much faster and in a way different way. (yea right)

Such species would make a lethal mistake would they ever contact humanity - their weaponry would be inferior and once WE could get there someone would initiate a crusade against them (sooner or later - im skeptical about that part of humans). If they came to here they were intilligent enough to realize this and simply left us alone http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif which returns us to the quote:

the proof that there is an intelligent life out there is that no one tried to contact us

Fyron

February 27th, 2003, 08:07 AM

Originally posted by Taera:
i dont like getting into this topic but i'll just post my thoughts. dont go too far people, and keep it civil.

it depends what bible are you talking about.
the original bible (forgive me for not knowing the name you call it on English) which i studied in Israel, AFAIK, had been written in parts. Near a thirdth of the books were written as events happened, another thirdth was written after things happened and the Last one was written from stories and memories. That is what i remember, i might be wrong. I know at least one book though which is proven to have been written as events in it took place. I cant remember the name now and wouldnt be able to translate it into English anyways.Well... Christians almost always refer mostly to the New Testament when refering to the Bible, as that is the part with the fictional tales about Jesus and all. Either way... written as events took place is wholly different from written as predictions that came true.

ZeroAdunn

February 27th, 2003, 08:48 AM

Wow, this topic is getting way out of hand. First, there needs to be some clerity on how the bible was written, it was not written by one person (not even god as some christians claim) it is a collection of parts written by numerous authors. Jesus himself never actually wrote anything, it was all his disciples. Other parts of course were written by the jews long before christianity.

As for being "educated," that means nothing. Most people have some education, most just have it in different fields.

I once had a reall awakening in thought, that changed me forever, it started with one simple phrase, "China does not exist, it is a myth made up by the government to scare small children into eating their vegetables" consider:

Have you ever seen china? No? Then how do you know it exists. Pictures can be forged, people can lie, books are just things written on paper. Without seeing, you cannot know, and even then there is no way to validate reality, as it is all perception. We all choose our reality to live in, that cannot be denied by anyone, so choose to live in a good one, and don't !@*% with my reality....

Fyron

February 27th, 2003, 09:19 AM

As for being "educated," that means nothing. Most people have some education, most just have it in different fields.The only point of mentioning that word was to tell Rags where my information about the Bible being written after the events it supposedly predicted came from.

Taera

February 27th, 2003, 09:31 AM

i say, topic's closed. back on original topic.

Fyron

February 27th, 2003, 10:19 AM

I say, it will continue to be discussed as long as we want to.

I think I ticked a few people off. I got 4 more Ratings, and my average dropped by .05 points. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ February 27, 2003, 08:29: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Ruatha

February 27th, 2003, 10:53 AM

IF > I totally agree on you with the God issue, hovewer I've discussed this with many of my christian friends and the discussions never lead anywhere, except as a social interaction.

But over to the Speed of Light.
If information can travel faster than the speed of light (And that was also belived impossible not long ago) why can't we someday find a way to make matter travel faster than light?

I know that currently the accpted theories don't allow it, but also that without string theory we can't make our theories fit together. And to prove string theory experimental will prove a real challange.

[ February 27, 2003, 08:54: Message edited by: Ruatha ]

Aloofi

February 27th, 2003, 05:05 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
I say, it will continue to be discussed as long as we want to.

I think I ticked a few people off. I got 4 more Ratings, and my average dropped by .05 points. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Man, at this rate you gonna end up without any of those neat little stars...... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
Look at it this way: The less stars you have the most truthfull to yourself you are. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Aloofi

February 27th, 2003, 05:13 PM

Originally posted by Taera:
makes me think and i agree with you desdinova. if aliens could have avoided the genetical will of people to spit into their neighbour's soup (quote from somewhere) - or put his head on lance, if its Dark Age - their advancements could have went much faster and in a way different way. (yea right)

Nah, I don't think they would had advanced at all without wars. If you look into our history you'll see that the ALL tech advancements have been fueled, inspired, financed, impulsed, pushed, used by the military.
Tech never advanced as fast as in WW2, and after that the cold war gave us from the Space shuttle to the CD player going through microwave technology and stealth composite materials.

A civilization without wars wouldn't have gone farther than collecting fruits form wild trees.
That's why I'm convinced that if there is an alien civilization, and if they actualy make it here, its not gonna be pretty.

dogscoff

February 27th, 2003, 05:14 PM

Man, at this rate you gonna end up without any of those neat little stars......
Look at it this way: The less stars you have the most truthfull to yourself you are.
4 stars is the optimum value. I very carefully and deliberately maintain 4 at all times. I don't want 5.

Fyron

February 27th, 2003, 08:07 PM

Originally posted by Aloofi:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
I say, it will continue to be discussed as long as we want to.

I think I ticked a few people off. I got 4 more Ratings, and my average dropped by .05 points. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Man, at this rate you gonna end up without any of those neat little stars...... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
Look at it this way: The less stars you have the most truthfull to yourself you are. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif <hr /></blockquote>The fewer stars I have, the less I care about the rating. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Also, you need to be pissed off from time to time. Anger is an emotion, and it needs to be expressed the same as other emotions do. Keeping any emotion pent up for too long leads to psychological disorders. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Sometimes this can even lead to physical disorders (like ulcers, heart attacks, strokes, etc.), as emotions are really on their fundamental level a balance of chemicals in our brains and bodies. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Originally posted by Ruatha:
But over to the Speed of Light.
If information can travel faster than the speed of light (And that was also belived impossible not long ago) why can't we someday find a way to make matter travel faster than light?

I know that currently the accpted theories don't allow it, but also that without string theory we can't make our theories fit together. And to prove string theory experimental will prove a real challange.Anyone can make up a theory that allows all the other accepted theories to fit together. The string theory is not the only theory out there that can do this. I don't remember what the others are at this point though. The hard part is making a theory that fits in with reality and being able to have some sort of evidence of its validity.

Originally posted by Aloofi:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Taera:
makes me think and i agree with you desdinova. if aliens could have avoided the genetical will of people to spit into their neighbour's soup (quote from somewhere) - or put his head on lance, if its Dark Age - their advancements could have went much faster and in a way different way. (yea right)

Nah, I don't think they would had advanced at all without wars. If you look into our history you'll see that the ALL tech advancements have been fueled, inspired, financed, impulsed, pushed, used by the military.
Tech never advanced as fast as in WW2, and after that the cold war gave us from the Space shuttle to the CD player going through microwave technology and stealth composite materials.

A civilization without wars wouldn't have gone farther than collecting fruits form wild trees.
That's why I'm convinced that if there is an alien civilization, and if they actualy make it here, its not gonna be pretty.<hr /></blockquote>Yeah, that post has basically hit the nail on the head with a laser-guided hammer. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Society needs a good big war every few generations to keep from stagnating. Wars also keep economies running strong. WWII was the only thing that got the world out of the Great Depression, after all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ February 27, 2003, 18:14: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Aloofi

February 27th, 2003, 08:20 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Aloofi:
Guys, do you want another mandy to light it up? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif No. That doesn't lighten anything up.<hr /></blockquote>Chill out man, and enjoy life.
What about a Kylie? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

http://www.kylieminogue.co.uk/gallery/images/red.jpg

Fyron

February 27th, 2003, 08:28 PM

Pictures of anyone are not going to lighten anything up. All they do is make the page take longer to load, and waste a lot of space. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Desdinova

February 27th, 2003, 09:50 PM

i agree that the bulk of our technological advances have come about from war or cold war times. even now the technology we have is from "war" between competing companies. what i am refering to by the dark ages is the fact that during that time most science was looked down upon and religion reigned. science was considered sorcery and black magic and the scentists persecuted and killed. if a society could have avoided that problem then they could be more advanced than us and would still be able to handle interaction with us. of course we have the nasty habit of if i cant have it no one can so perhaps the fact that no one has contacted us is best. then again they may be living with us at this time and we would not necessary know it.

edit: i dont care what IF says it was not a waste of time and space (bidi! bidi!). thanks for the picture. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ February 27, 2003, 20:06: Message edited by: desdinova ]

Wardad

February 27th, 2003, 10:02 PM

Kylie nudes can be email directly to me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Desdinova

February 27th, 2003, 10:16 PM

scientists have found evidence of non terran oxygen in our atmosphere.

The instrument ferreted out the tiniest molecules of stellar sand and glass, which carried a form of oxygen foreign to the Earth's solar system. These oxygen isotopes -- carrying a different number of neutrons from native oxygen -- lit up under the scanner, Messenger said.

WE ARE BEING INVADED!
unfortunately the article is just a few paragraphs from my internet provider so i dont know the whole story but they say it came from reuters.

Fyron

February 27th, 2003, 10:17 PM

Those Dark Ages only happened in Europe. The rest of the world went on developing new science without them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif The Arabs and Chinese in particular continued to make advances during the European Dark Ages. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Wardad

February 27th, 2003, 10:25 PM

Confused Confucious philosophy with emphasis on harmony discouraged technical advancements and helped to bring about stagnation.

Fyron

February 27th, 2003, 10:27 PM

Originally posted by Wardad:
Confused Confucious philosophy with emphasis on harmony discouraged technical advancements and helped to bring about stagnation.Remember that the European Dark Ages began in roughly 479 AD (something like that) and Lasted until maybe the 15th or 16th century AD. You are saying that the Chinese made no advancements during that period?

Aloofi

February 27th, 2003, 10:35 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Those Dark Ages only happened in Europe. The rest of the world went on developing new science without them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif The Arabs and Chinese in particular continued to make advances during the European Dark Ages. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Yes, and the Bizantine Empire.
And the chinesse invented the most important tech advance ever: Firearms.
But it was the west the one that took that invention to the highest level.

Atrocities

February 27th, 2003, 10:39 PM

What?? Is everyone off today or something? My god 108 hits in less than 24 hours. This is a first for any of my topics.

geoschmo

February 27th, 2003, 10:46 PM

You are both right. The Orient and Middle East did go through a phase similer to the European dark ages where technological advancment was stagnated due to political and religious pressures. Unfortunatly for them it came later, during the time when Europe was advancing again. The resulting technology gap allowed for the phase of European colonization that persisted into the industrial revolution. The East is only now really recovering from that.

Geo

[ February 27, 2003, 20:47: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

tesco samoa

February 27th, 2003, 11:00 PM

Didn't the ummm Italian Reseach Council or something beat C by 5% ??

I know up in Subury Ontario and at carleton U They are doing experiments with sub atomic travel at very fast speeds Up to C and perhaps they have passed C... i remember there was a slashdot on it Last year some time... They were sending the particles down and getting more at the receiving end... Something they have yet to explain... Perhaps those who travelled quicker than C ?? But don't quote me on this... It is all from memory.

And I do not have the time to search for reference documents on it.

tesco samoa

February 27th, 2003, 11:02 PM

I think it is called tunnelling

QuarianRex

February 27th, 2003, 11:23 PM

Interesting thread.

When looking at the bible there are many factors that must be taken into account. It is not just a matter of "I believe it, it's all true" vs. "it's unproven, it's all crap".

You have to look at who wrote it and who (mis)interpreted it. One of the reasons that there has been so much confusion has been due to the differences between jewish and hellenistic cultures. Jewish culture (and especially the language) is very emotionally based, non-rational. This leads to the use of a lot of metaphor and such to get across the proper tone and meaning of what is being said.

This contrasts greatly with the hellenistic view (held by the the greeks, rome, and especially the apostle Paul) which was extremely rational and litteral, very similar to the modern viewpoint of the westernized world. When rome adopted christianity they aquired a vast body of scripture that was steeped in metaphor, but was mistakenly accepted as literal.

This was further complicated by the confusion of translating the hebrew texts to greek and latin. Much was altereddue to this. For example, in hebrew 'messiah' means 'king in waiting' or 'he who would be king'. It had no connotations of divinity (and was why Jesus was from the line of David, it was the royal lineage). Unfortunately, in greek the word messiah translates into 'christos' (a.k.a. Christ) which has connotations of godhood (like hercules and other demigods).

Also, during the years of the early roman church, when the bible was being compiled into a single book there was much... editing... being done. Letters have been found from monks at the time (700-900 AD I can't quite remember the dates) discussing the necessity of destroying scriptural 'truths' since they were being used by satan and so were now 'false'. In other words, they were destroying/discrediting all scripture that did not fit with the official view of christianity.

Remember that modern christianity is a result of a committee decision. When emperor constantine decided to adopt the christian religion he brought all the various christian sects and cults together to figure out what they actually believed. Whether christ was a man, a god, a bit of both, of something else. It was at this time that the whole god-the-father/god-the-son/trinity thing got hammered out. And this was under the direction of constantine, a man who was the high priest of the sol invictus sun cult until his deathbed where he allowed himself to be baptized in case these crazy christians were onto something.

Oh, and the idea that God is a constant and unchanging omnipotent being cannot be supported. Take a look through the old testament, or just look at the Dr.Laura letter on the Canadian joke thread, and you'll see how large a change it was to 'love thy neighbor' and 'turn the other cheek'. That shows an evolution of God from guardian angel of abraham to storm/wargod of Israel to benefactor of jews and gentiles alike.

I could go on for days but this is a long post as it is. The point is that there is a lot more going on here than I think either of you realize.

Fyron:

I can appreciate your passion (zeal?) but try to argue within the paradigm. A paragraph of you telling a man he is wrong six different ways does not advance your argument at all, and does not disprove his argument either. Probe the inconsistencies within the bible itself to make your point as opposed to unilaterally declaring the whole thing to be bunk.

[ February 27, 2003, 21:28: Message edited by: QuarianRex ]

Taera

February 28th, 2003, 01:44 AM

Tesco: thanks for reminding me. about half a year ago i also read an article about a research project... i think that was in the newspaper where i read it. The idea is that scientists were able (dont ask me how - physics isnt my major and it was a while ago) to accelerate particles to about 1.5 times light speed. I do not remember the details, what i do remember is that they encountered something that made them thing biological creatures wouldnt survive such an adventure using their current theories.

if you think about it, space age might not be that much far http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

an interesting topic indeed.

Taera

February 28th, 2003, 01:45 AM

i agree on the point regarding war and peace. i was wrong http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif yea happens, so what http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Fyron

February 28th, 2003, 01:55 AM

Originally posted by geoschmo:
You are both right. The Orient and Middle East did go through a phase similer to the European dark ages where technological advancment was stagnated due to political and religious pressures. Unfortunatly for them it came later, during the time when Europe was advancing again. The resulting technology gap allowed for the phase of European colonization that persisted into the industrial revolution. The East is only now really recovering from that.And this is precisely why I always said "European Dark Age." http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Originally posted by Aloofi:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Those Dark Ages only happened in Europe. The rest of the world went on developing new science without them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif The Arabs and Chinese in particular continued to make advances during the European Dark Ages. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Yes, and the Bizantine Empire.
And the chinesse invented the most important tech advance ever: Firearms.
But it was the west the one that took that invention to the highest level.<hr /></blockquote>The Chinese invented gunpowder, and used it mostly for fireworks. They made some odd things like gunpowder crossbows, but it was Europeans that invented cannons, and then firearms (muskets, rifles, that sort of thing), from the gunpowder they got from the Chinese.

The Byzantines were not Muslims, actually. Later on, the city was taken over by... the Ottomans? Or was it the Sarecans? I forget which, actually. But the Byzantines were Christians just like Rome in the later days before the Roman Empire fell. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I forget the exact chain of events, but the (insert correct Muslim group) renamed the city when they took it over, and it was no longer Byzantine.

I could go on for days but this is a long post as it is. The point is that there is a lot more going on here than I think either of you realize.I did hint at these sorts of problems many Posts ago when I mentioned translations of the Bible, but it wasn't a big part of the post. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

When looking at the bible there are many factors that must be taken into account. It is not just a matter of "I believe it, it's all true" vs. "it's unproven, it's all crap".That was not my argument. My argument was that the predictions in the Bible were (to use your terminology) crap.

Fyron:

I can appreciate your passion (zeal?) but try to argue within the paradigm. A paragraph of you telling a man he is wrong six different ways does not advance your argument at all, and does not disprove his argument either. Probe the inconsistencies within the bible itself to make your point as opposed to unilaterally declaring the whole thing to be bunk.He was wrong the same way 6 times, so telling him that over and over again was necessary. He posted events supposedly predicted by the Bible, even though those parts of the Bible were written after those events took place (either days after in the contemporary, or centuries after). I don't own a Bible myself, so I can't very well find those example myself. What I can do is debunk the ones he gave. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Tesco: thanks for reminding me. about half a year ago i also read an article about a research project... i think that was in the newspaper where i read it. The idea is that scientists were able (dont ask me how - physics isnt my major and it was a while ago) to accelerate particles to about 1.5 times light speed. I do not remember the details, what i do remember is that they encountered something that made them thing biological creatures wouldnt survive such an adventure using their current theories.The kind of particles in the experiment make all the difference in the world.

[ February 28, 2003, 00:41: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Baron Munchausen

February 28th, 2003, 03:41 AM

Imperator Fyron wrote:

The Chinese invented gunpowder, and used it mostly for fireworks. They made some odd things like gunpowder crossbows, but it was Europeans that invented cannons, and then firearms (muskets, rifles, that sort of thing), from the gunpowder they got from the Chinese.

The Byzantines were not Muslims, actually. Later on, the city was taken over by... the Ottomans? Or was it the Sarecans? I forget which, actually. But the Byzantines were Christians just like Rome in the later days before the Roman Empire fell. I forget the exact chain of events, but the (insert correct Muslim group) renamed the city when they took it over, and it was no longer Byzantine.
Actually, the events you are disccussing are connected. In 1453 Constantinople, which had been the capital of the Eastern Roman Empire since the 3rd century, was attacked and taken by the Ottoman Turks. The Last Caesar, Constantine XI, was killed in the fighting and so the Empire essentially was destroyed with its capital. The Ottoman Empire would Last until early in the 20th century, btw. It finally collapsed in WW I.

But anyway... the Ottoman ruler was a type we know well today. I don't know if they had a word like 'Fundamentalist' in that era but that is certainly what we would call him. When he took over Constantinople and renamed it Istanbul, he decided to burn all the 'heathen' books the city was so well stocked with. His reasoning was wonderfully concise. "If the books contain information not in the Koran then they must be wrong, if they contain information already in the Koran then they are superfluous." So anyway, the various Byzantine scholars had to run away to preserve their learning and often their own lives. Since the Ottoman Empire had been encroaching from the East for centuries, they went WEST to Italy.

Look at the date: 1453. This is not only the final end of the Roman Empire, it is also generally recognized as the beginning of the Renaissance. The Ottomans cut their own throats, as it were, by kicking off the Renaissance that would result in the rise of the Western European powers.

[ February 28, 2003, 01:42: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

Fyron

February 28th, 2003, 03:42 AM

Ok... so I guess I only knew the very, very basics of that situation. Now I know more about it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Andr�s

February 28th, 2003, 04:08 AM

Where do the holy scriptures say that this is the only inhabited world anyway?
God could have created billions of alien races in His likeness.
Why would have God created such a vast universe to place life only in this tiny little insignificant rock.

About the age of an alien civilization, remember that human civilization has existed for a tiny fragment of Earth life. For example what would have happened if dinosaurs would have survived and had the chance to evolve into a sentient race. The point is that an alien civilization could have evolved long before humankind or long after. Also consider that earth like worlds were not created all at the same time, some may be much older and others younger.
It is more plausible that an alien culture is either many millions of years ahead or behind us that in a similar cultural age.

IMHO it is very plausible that many alien races are more advanced than us.
It is also plausible that some of them could have already created ships like those I had described a few post ago.
It is very unlikely that any of those ships will reach Earth anytime soon.

Right why is it that according to most sci-fi a race = a nation?
Most likely an alien world would have many countries with a complex history, and many wars, just like us.
Is evolving into a single culture a requisite for reaching space-age?

cshank2

February 28th, 2003, 04:42 AM

Whatif there are other HUMANs out there? Like we were some sort of rebels or whatnot and were exiled to earth (ALA Starcraft style) and since we were stripped of technology we were put back millions of years, just my two cents but I myself have seen a UFO before, I was in Gladstone Michigan and ws riding inthe car with my mom. I look out the wondow over the lake and theres these 2 huge silver balls connected int he middle by a pillar hovering out there then they shot off were ont he horozion in a second then traveled in a diagnol line up... freaky http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

CNCRaymond

February 28th, 2003, 05:54 AM

Here is a thought for ya to consider.

What if we are all that is left of life out there?

What if there are no more planets for us to colonize?

What if all that we will ever have is what we have here?

Think of it this way; five people are stranded on a desert island with enough rations to Last one month. How long do you think it will take one of them to figure out that if he bumps off the other four, he will have enough rations to keep him alive for many months?

What we have here and now is the best we will ever have it. Our resources are dwindling away and our population is increasing at a tremendous rate. Eventually there will not be enough to go around.

If you take an empty bottle that takes exactly one hour to fill if you start by adding one peanut to it and every minute that follows you double the amount of peanuts you add to it, (1 then 2, then 4, then 8 etc), at what point will that bottle be half full?

Albert Bartlett, a mathematician and economic specialist has shown without a doubt that math does not lie when it comes to growth and consumption of resources. Eventually our growth will out pace our ability to meet our basic demands. That democracy is reduced by growth and that freedom will diminish as our resources do and our population increases.

No religion in the universe is going to save us from ourselves. We are here alone, on this fragile little planet out here in the farthest reaches of known space, all alone in the dark, with no hope for survival. There is going to be no salvation, no utopia, and no future for our race, our planet, or our concept of faith.

God cannot save us, so stop hoping that he will. Our number has been punched before we were ever conceived.

Do this, play a game like Civ3. You start out with this huge map and all this free space. Over time that free space becomes less and less as you expand. Eventually what was once vast open spaces is now all city and full of population. A hundred years ago most of the USA was still wilderness and unpopulated, but now, freeways and housing developments everywhere. Think how bad it is going to be in the next hundred years?

Just remember this simple philosophy, nothing really matter five minutes after you do it. For in a hundred years, what you have done will mean nothing. In a thousand years no one will ever know you did it.

I give us about fifty more years before all hell breaks out and the war to survive begins. No amount of money will protect you when this happens, no amount of faith, no amount of hope. It is simply going to be a matter of survival, for if we do not do something soon; Mother Nature is going to do it for us.

[ February 28, 2003, 04:01: Message edited by: CNCRaymond ]

tesco samoa

February 28th, 2003, 07:05 AM

Did you know the Romans invented the Steam Engine.

Guess what they used it for.

Yep .... when people would walk into the Baths in Rome their was pressure plates on the ground. When they stepped on it the doors would open... All Powered by a steam engine.

On the topic of the Bible.

Fyron you should not disreguard it.

It is a Scientific book written many many years ago. If it was written today it would resemble the current way we figure out life which is Mathmatics.

And the majority of science that pretains to perception we currently believe to be true will eventually be proven wrong.... History has prooven this. It also prooves I can not spell.

ZeroAdunn

February 28th, 2003, 08:21 AM

Wow CNC, you want to try and depress me a little more? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Ruatha

February 28th, 2003, 09:49 AM

About tunneling.
I haven't had time to read these link yet:
http://www.aei-potsdam.mpg.de/~mpoessel/Physik/FTL/tunnelingftl.html
http://www.comcity.com/distance-time/The%20Speed%20of%20Quantum%20tunneling.html
But if anyone has the time please do and sum it up.
If I remember correctly it was somethiung about light passing faster through a grid then through vacuum.

Another experiment: (That I haven't read yet, am (kind of) at work, will read later)
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=0008F9A7-7781-1C76-9B81809EC588E F21&pageNumber=1&catID=9 (http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=0008F9A7-7781-1C76-9B81809EC588EF21&pageNumber=1&catID=9)

But wasn't it something about two quarks (I hope that's the english word for "kvarkar") in harmony changes state at the same time disregarding any difference when one of the quarks alter state?

(Sorry about posting links I haven't read yet, but they where on my "read" list and I wanna post before I go and become "un-connected" again for a while.)

[ February 28, 2003, 07:54: Message edited by: Ruatha ]

dogscoff

February 28th, 2003, 12:58 PM

CNC: You're wrong=-)

1. We already produce more food than the population of the Earth can eat. All the famine and starvation in the world comes down to economics and logistics, not underproduction.

2. The Earth is nowhere near full yet. There are massive tracts of land as yet unused for farming and living space. By the time that runs out, we will have the technology to exploit the ocean floors, which will effectively treble the amount of surface available to us.

3. If the Earth does become overcrowded, some kind of catastrophic event (war, environmental disaster) will reduce the human population, but it won't wipe us out. We are too good at adapting ourselves and our environment to our own needs to be extinguished that easily. I think we could even (just about) survive a meteor hit and subsequent nuclear winter. Also, our current society is now a global phenomenon- unless you destroyed every country in the world it would be a shorter climb back up to our current state than it was from the dark ages back up to the level of civilisation that preceded them.

4. We WILL make it up into space. It will probably centuries or even millenia before we leave this solar system, but I firmly believe we will. In the meantime, The moon, Mars, the asteroid belt and some of the Jovian satellites will all be mined and/ or colonised. Once we achieve self-sufficiency away from mother earth, the human race will be truly unstoppable.

Aloofi

February 28th, 2003, 04:33 PM

This thread is awesome! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Graeme Dice

February 28th, 2003, 04:40 PM

Originally posted by dogscoff:
2. The Earth is nowhere near full yet.This is a matter of opinion. In mine, we already have more than twice as many people as there should be.

Aloofi

February 28th, 2003, 08:20 PM

I've been thinking about the Alien thing, and I have reached the conclusion that if an Alien civilization have the capability of coming all the way to here, it have to be an agressive civilization, because "thirst for scientific knowledge" is not enough to fund the cost of R&D of space exploration tech. They have to have a major motive pushing them to the stars.

Now, they also need to have a very advance industrial infrastructure, and what's the most advance/powerful/capable economical organization?
Yes, the evil corporations.
This one scenario of first contact:

An scout vessel from Race X comes to our beloved solar system. It chart the system, run their planetary mineral scanners, and deploy a couple guiding beacons.
Back on Planet X, MegaCorporation Z buys the mining rights for our solar system, and ask for a loan from the Galactic Bank to initiate mining operations. Mega Z starts minig first the rich mineral deposits in Mars, but they soon discover that our planet is even richer , and they start to plan a mining colony over here. But, of course, the native population of Earth is going to be problem, so they send a drone to drop us a Virus Bomb V. After that they land a couple of Corporate Marines to claim the planet and make sure that we were wiped out, then they collect all the minerals found in our cities, especially the gold from Fort Knox, and finally they start building a mining complex to mine our planet's core, financed by the Galactic Bank.

Wardad

February 28th, 2003, 08:33 PM

Aloofi,
Why would they go to all that trouble?
They could get us to enslave each other, and then we could mine it for them.
Of couse this approach requires some finesse and control of local resources.

At one time in Europe pepper corns were more precious than gold. You could become very rich and powerfull by trading it.

In modern times, copyrights and patents are the real bonanza. They just have to stay ahead of the curve and slow down the competition.
Take Microsoft for example, PLEASE!!!

Fyron

February 28th, 2003, 10:19 PM

It is a Scientific book written many many years ago. If it was written today it would resemble the current way we figure out life which is Mathmatics.No, it is not a scientific book. It is a philosophical book. To be a scientific book, it would have to start out with basic observed facts, and use them to prove something. It does not do that, it just says, "here is the conclusion, and it is true". Actually, it would have to do pretty much the same thing to be a philosophical book, so it is not one of those. It is a religious book, period.

Aloofi

February 28th, 2003, 10:35 PM

Originally posted by Wardad:
Aloofi,
Why would they go to all that trouble?
They could get us to enslave each other, and then we could mine it for them.
Of couse this approach requires some finesse and control of local resources.

Nah, they don't have use for us as slaves because we can't possible undestand their tech (If they can warp....) and it will be more reliable to use droids to mine.
Also, their goverment might have laws prohibiting the training of primitive native in their technology.
Advanced industrial tech beats the hell out of slave workforce. Slaves by default have not interest in producing, or in quality. Plus slaves cost money to maintain, otherwise they die out rather quickly.
There is a reason why slavery was abolished in our culture, and believe me, it have nothing to do with human rights.

Aloofi

February 28th, 2003, 11:12 PM

Hey, I found a better Mandy.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

http://movies.yahoo.com/images/hv/photo/movie_pix/walt_disney/the_princess_diaries/_group_photos/anne_hathaway11.jpg

Andr�s

March 1st, 2003, 12:36 AM

Well the Bible is a mixture of myths, history, philosophy, how the world/universe was though to work, and moral advice.
Yes it was written by men, but it is pointless to discuss if those men were directly guided by God.
Most believers understand that although most truths in the Bible are timeless and as a whole it is still valid today, it was written for the situation and understanding of people of those times.
Taking literally and believing any religious scriptures blindly without thinking makes you a fanatic.
And it's pointless to discuss with a fanatic.

IIRC overpopulation was going to be a problem before long year 2000, but nothing happened. Conflicts in the world today have little or nothing to do with that.
We're not stranded in a desert island with counted rations like CNC said.
We've been living in this island for many generations, self sustained by fruits growing in its trees, there are more efficient production methods yet to implement. Population growth is limited by the available resources and it's also a matter of time before someone builds a boat and tries to get to another island.

No I don't believe there are other humans out there, but how similar or different than humans other races will be? I really dislike the sci-fi idea that sentient races will invariably evolve into a human like shape.

I believe that there are millions of alien races out there.
But that they are so out of reach for us as we are out of reach for them.
A dark age and speed of development of every race are irrelevant. Human civilization is but an
instant in Earth lifetime, and other planets can be much older or younger than Earth.
It would be an unlikely coincidence if civilization is as developed as ours.
Among those millions of races that must exist out there, there must be many races that are millions of years ahead of us.

I agree with Dogscoff we will eventually make it up into space.

And those races that are more advanced than us must have probably made it up into space themselves.

And once space travel is a reliable everyday technology, a space-faring race will try to move beyond its star system.

A ship capable of a centuries long trip will not be profitable for a corporation or military expansion, no one would consider something so uncertain and long term a worthy investment.
It will be either a multi-generetion ship or a ship with all crew in animated suspension.
They will need to be independent from their mother culture, as distance grows not even communication will be possible and time passes the civilization that sent them may have fallen.
Will they feel like living in ships forever or will they seek suitable planet to settle?
If the planet they find an inhabited planet, will they:
1- leave them alone and do find another planet. Perhaps just stopping by to say hello, perhaps not letting the natives know they've been there.
2- exterminate or enslave the natives and colonize the planet
3- establish relations with natives, and settle in peace.
4- split their limited number and do two or all three of the things above.
Remember they will probably be outnumbered but count with higher technology.

Atrocities

March 1st, 2003, 01:50 AM

A ship capable of a centuries long trip will not be profitable for a corporation or military expansion, no one would consider something so uncertain and long term a worthy investment.I have to dissagree. Suvival is a worthy investment.

spoon

March 1st, 2003, 03:47 AM

Maybe they're there, but can't find us... (http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/java/scienceopticsu/powersof10/)

Andr�s

March 1st, 2003, 06:45 AM

But if a culture can build a ship than with limited resources can survive in deep space for an indefinite time, they surely have no problem surviving in their homeworld.
So unless their sun is dying or our they are self destructing their race in war I doubt that survival press them to do it.

Aloofi

March 3rd, 2003, 05:24 PM

Originally posted by Andr&eacutes Lescano:

They will need to be independent from their mother culture, as distance grows not even communication will be possible and time passes the civilization that sent them may have fallen.
Will they feel like living in ships forever or will they seek suitable planet to settle?
If the planet they find an inhabited planet, will they:
1- leave them alone and do find another planet. Perhaps just stopping by to say hello, perhaps not letting the natives know they've been there.
2- exterminate or enslave the natives and colonize the planet
3- establish relations with natives, and settle in peace.
4- split their limited number and do two or all three of the things above.
Remember they will probably be outnumbered but count with higher technology.Humm, this sound like the mothership from that movie, Independence day.

http://i.imdb.com/Photos/Ss/0116629/024543037705_z_indeicau.jpg

http://i.imdb.com/Photos/Ss/0116629/024543039082_z_indeiccu.jpg

[ March 03, 2003, 15:39: Message edited by: Aloofi ]