Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS [Archive]

PsychoTechFreak

March 4th, 2003, 12:50 PM

Originally posted by oleg:
I never tested AI in such settings. If you like I can tweak AI "not connected" state for your game. It should not be very difficult, mainly changing AI_research.txt file. Tell me what races you want to include - piundon, krill, cryslonite, nostropholo, drushocka, ukra-tal, soul hunters and pequenino use my AI and I'see what I can do.Thanks for your offer to help with it.
Yet I would like to take a race with organic trait and another one with religious. But I need to take a closer look to them (hopefully I can get to it tonight) to be more specific.

PvK
Foundations mod was a bit more like that, because you started out with Chemical Thrusters (markedly weaker and shorter-ranged than Ion Engines), and that was also before I added the Efficient Engines in one of the early Proportions patches. Increasing the supply use of effcient engines to closer to regular engines would help achieve the effect you're looking for. You could also reduce the supply capacity of all engines.
I will take a look into Foundations (Gold-CD?) to maybe take some ideas out of this, maybe it becomes a Foundations-Proportions mix? Efficient Engines, I think I would probably just remove them. Supply Cargo components are the next problem for reducing ship ranges.

PvK
Also, a major element speeding expansion beyond the design's intent is the ability to build colony ships using space yard ships, so you can build the colonizers at the frontier.

That is what I find myself doing ALWAYS. SY ships moving to planets, create empty colony, send medium transporters for population. The colonizer slow down problem is just circumvented by this kind of exploitation. I am going to think about other solutions to use the system in a way that has been intended by you, but I guess this might lead to other side effects, let's see.

gregebowman
Can anyone do the programming for that? It is just an early state of an idea yet. Most of PvK's proportions mod and intentions will be unchanged, of course and I think I could need PvK's help/answers in some cases. But I am going to give it a try, it needs to be balanced in several of the aspects that have been already mentioned. Also, some AIs for a game like this would be nice. First let's see how it will develop, side-effects on gameplay and such.

dogscoff

March 4th, 2003, 01:04 PM

Foundations mod was a bit more like that, because you started out
I didn't realise Foundations actually existed. I thought it was some kind of ultra-comlplicated uber-mod that would be the end result of years of steady development on Proportions.

Also, a major element speeding expansion beyond the design's intent is the ability to build colony ships using space yard ships, so you can build the colonizers at the frontier.
I thought you were planning to remove this exploit by reducing the org output of mobile spaceyards or something.

[ March 04, 2003, 11:05: Message edited by: dogscoff ]

JLS

March 4th, 2003, 03:59 PM

Originally posted by PvK:
[QB]You could also reduce the supply capacity of all engines.Pete,
Will this put the Ship in a possible supply problem and cause it not to sentry in some cases even one move away? Would it then be a must now to install at least one Supply Storage Bay to avoid sentry problems even after a refuel, by a supply ship?

There may be criticism that 2 engines carry the same amount of [Supply Storage] as one Supply storage bay, and what engineer would do this, but I look at the engine supply; indicative to the math required to have a ship move a desired distance to the designers intent. One could also change the sentence to read something other then 'Descr := Can store 250 units of supply' to lets say the (Pulse from a Ion Engine ???? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif ????? I don�t know, you�re the writer http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I just fix refrigerators for a living http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ March 04, 2003, 17:01: Message edited by: JLS ]

oleg

March 4th, 2003, 04:15 PM

Originally posted by JLS:
Oleg, I may be misunderstanding? But all the AI is already programmed for AI State: Not Connected since well before Proportions 2.53 and are good to go in all AI files that are packaged (I believe) with Proportions 2.53. I mean that I did not test my AIs for not connected state. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif I checked your AIs scripts and envy how good it is set ! I will do some work and post updated files ASAP.

JLS

March 4th, 2003, 05:04 PM

Originally posted by oleg:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JLS:
Oleg, I may be misunderstanding? But all the AI is already programmed for AI State: Not Connected since well before Proportions 2.53 and are good to go in all AI files that are packaged (I believe) with Proportions 2.53. I mean that I did not test my AIs for not connected state. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif I checked your AIs scripts and envy how good it is set ! I will do some work and post updated files ASAP.<hr /></blockquote>http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif Actually I think yours are good to go as well in AI Not connected!!!!!
And your AIs in other areas accomplish things in a better way then Abbi's and CC.
Please, don't you misunderstand me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

What I was saying, it seemed like it was implied that Proportion 2.53 was't good to go in all AI files that are packaged. I beleive they are. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ March 04, 2003, 15:06: Message edited by: JLS ]

oleg

March 4th, 2003, 05:45 PM

Originally posted by JLS:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by oleg:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JLS:
Oleg, I may be misunderstanding? But all the AI is already programmed for AI State: Not Connected since well before Proportions 2.53 and are good to go in all AI files that are packaged (I believe) with Proportions 2.53. I mean that I did not test my AIs for not connected state. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif I checked your AIs scripts and envy how good it is set ! I will do some work and post updated files ASAP.<hr /></blockquote>http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif Actually I think yours are good to go as well in AI Not connected!!!!!
And your AIs in other areas accomplish things in a better way then Abbi's and CC.
Please, don't you misunderstand me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

What I was saying, it seemed like it was implied that Proportion 2.53 was't good to go in all AI files that are packaged. I beleive they are. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif <hr /></blockquote>But I REALlY did not try them in Non Connected for more than few turns ! Somehow I did't think many people will use this setting. My mistake.

JLS

March 4th, 2003, 06:01 PM

What I like best for the AI that you accomplished. Oleg, is your Support Ship Design.

Good stuff.

I and a lot of other Moders have followed your example, since!!!

PsychoTechFreak

March 4th, 2003, 06:01 PM

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
Efficient Engines, I think I would probably just remove them. I should better not remove anything, just change values, right? Otherwise, I guess the AI ship designs might get in trouble.

Spaceyard components with reduced org output, great idea. Gimme more like this... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

I guess one reason for PvK has not done this yet could be the running games on PBW? I mean... you know what I mean.

JLS

March 4th, 2003, 06:12 PM

Yah, I was going with the premise you wanted to mod out the AI (some what). From earlier or was it the first post in this thread.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ March 04, 2003, 16:21: Message edited by: JLS ]

oleg

March 4th, 2003, 07:03 PM

Originally posted by JLS:
What I like best for the AI that you accomplished. Oleg, is your Support Ship Design.

Good stuff.

I and a lot of other Moders have followed your example, since!!!Actually, I steal the concept from Master Belizarious' Aquelian/Pyrochette AI. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Support ship design and "offensive sweepers". He should be credited with this ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

JLS

March 4th, 2003, 07:09 PM

Originally posted by oleg:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JLS:
What I like best for the AI that you accomplished. Oleg, is your Support Ship Design.

Good stuff.

I and a lot of other Moders have followed your example, since!!!Actually, I steal the concept from Master Belizarious' Aquelian/Pyrochette AI. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Support ship design and "offensive sweepers". He should be credited with this ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <hr /></blockquote>Well, I learnt from you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
Thats what counts to, me!
Meaning no offense to Master Belizarious.

[ March 04, 2003, 17:14: Message edited by: JLS ]

PsychoTechFreak

March 4th, 2003, 08:56 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
Foundations mod was a bit more like that, because you started outI didn't realise Foundations actually existed. I thought it was some kind of ultra-comlplicated uber-mod that would be the end result of years of steady development on Proportions. <hr /></blockquote>PvK, what exactly is Foundations? Is it a pre- SEIV thing or is it a future project resulting from proportions learnings?

JLS

March 4th, 2003, 09:06 PM

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> <blockquote>quote:<hr />
Foundations mod was a bit more like that, because you started outI didn't realise Foundations actually existed. I thought it was some kind of ultra-comlplicated uber-mod that would be the end result of years of steady development on Proportions. <hr /></blockquote>PvK, what exactly is Foundations? Is it a pre- SEIV thing or is it a future project resulting from proportions learnings?<hr /></blockquote>~
Hmmmm, maybe Proportions 3.00 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ March 04, 2003, 19:06: Message edited by: JLS ]

Fyron

March 4th, 2003, 09:36 PM

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> <blockquote>quote:<hr />
Foundations mod was a bit more like that, because you started outI didn't realise Foundations actually existed. I thought it was some kind of ultra-comlplicated uber-mod that would be the end result of years of steady development on Proportions. <hr /></blockquote>PvK, what exactly is Foundations? Is it a pre- SEIV thing or is it a future project resulting from proportions learnings?<hr /></blockquote>Its a mod that he wanted to make, but was too ambitious to be done in time, so he made Proportions instead, which is part of what Foundations is supposed to be. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I think Foundations was going to be a "complete" mod, as in it would change everything about the game, including the basics of the tech tree and all that stuff.

oleg

March 4th, 2003, 09:42 PM

I surely hope PvK will release it eventually. Even if it is not complete, with so many Proportions enthusiasts around we can make it work http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

JLS

March 4th, 2003, 09:43 PM

Originally posted by oleg:
I surely hope PvK will release it eventually. Even if it is not complete, with so many Proportions enthusiasts around we can make it work http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif AGREED

PsychoTechFreak

March 4th, 2003, 09:57 PM

oleg, blame me, but could you point me to the SoulHunters shipset, please?

Everything else I have found.

Fyron

March 4th, 2003, 10:09 PM

It is in the B5 Mod. It should also be available on the PBW files library. I know I uploaded a copy of it a long time ago so I could use it on PBW, though I might have called it Shag'Toth instead of Soul Hunters (as Shag'Toth is their "correct" name http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ).

oleg

March 4th, 2003, 10:12 PM

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
oleg, blame me, but could you point me to the SoulHunters shipset, please?

Everything else I have found.Download from Proportions page:
http://g2.latibulum.com/pvk/proportions/
Just scroll down a little. AI is not the latest,
you can find it in race dowload forum:
http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=50;t=000001

fith or sixth post down. Sorry, don't have zip file here on work. If there are problems, ask and I'll send from home.

PsychoTechFreak

March 4th, 2003, 11:25 PM

Thanks. PvK's page is bookmarked, but obviously I always look on top of the page http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

I think my Favorites for the setup could be Shag'Toth/SoulHunters and UkraTal, so I would have a religious and an organic race.

I have created a small test setup and I am going to let it run overnight:

No WPs, Large mid-life quadrant, no events, everything medium, one planet start, 5000K empires (BTW, I have noticed some glitches in the empire setups for: Drushocka, Pequeninos, Piundon and a smaller one (150 pts not set) in UkraTal).

Following AI races are involved in this little pre-test:

-Krill (olegs latest and greatest)
-Cryslonite
-Nostropholos
-SoulHunters/Shag'Toth
-UkraTal (with 150 pts. not set)

Let's see if my watching empire will be crunched up tomorow morning. I could do a snapshot of the races and what they are looking for, before I go to bed tonight.

JLS

March 4th, 2003, 11:31 PM

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
I have created a small test setup and I am going to let it run overnight:Can you tell us more about running this over night?

Is there a program that will run many turns automatically for you, so you can test the AI.

I would be interested in this!

PsychoTechFreak

March 4th, 2003, 11:44 PM

Originally posted by JLS:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
I have created a small test setup and I am going to let it run overnight:Can you tell us more about running this over night?

Is there a program that will run many turns automatically for you, so you can test the AI.

I would be interested in this!<hr /></blockquote>If you look for a professional solution, Master Belisarius Batch program would be the right thing for you. If I find it again, I will post the according thread here:

...

Here you go:
http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=004661;p=1

What I am doing in this (no WP) case is just:

-setup a human controlled race
-setup the AI races
-go to the human races empire setup window
-turn off everything on top of it (display log at beginning of turn, display confirmation for end turn and so forth)
-then I put a coffee mug onto my F12 key http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ March 04, 2003, 21:50: Message edited by: PsychoTechFreak ]

JLS

March 4th, 2003, 11:45 PM

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JLS:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
I have created a small test setup and I am going to let it run overnight:Can you tell us more about running this over night?

Is there a program that will run many turns automatically for you, so you can test the AI.

I would be interested in this!<hr /></blockquote>If you look for a professional solution, Master Belisarius Batch program would be the right thing for you. If I find it again, I will post the according thread here:

...

What I am doing in this (no WP) case is just:

-setup a human controlled race
-setup the AI races
-go to the human races empire setup window
-turn off everything on top of it (display log at beginning of turn, display confirmation for end turn and so forth)
-then I put a coffee mug onto my F12 key http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif <hr /></blockquote>THANKS http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

PsychoTechFreak

March 4th, 2003, 11:51 PM

Here you go:
http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=004661;p=1

PsychoTechFreak

March 5th, 2003, 01:15 AM

10 years:
Krill have researched all colonizing techs, every planet of the home system is colonized.
Next research goals: ship construction 6, sensors, no astrophysics yet.
Nostropholean similar to Krill, everything colonized, no astrophysics.
Cryslonite: All colony techs researched, but just 50% of the system is colonized. Basic facilities, like the two above: research center1, miner1...
SoulHunters: All colony techs, everything colonized, looking for ship constr.5, sensors, torpedoes,PDF
UkraTal: All colony techs, everything colonized, looking for PDF3,sensors2,org tech1,ship constr.5

about 50 years:
Krill have opened two WPs to adjacent systems. Researching SM5.
Nostropholean: research for SM1, planets are filled with cities, major cities, upgrades to major cities in progress.
Cryslonite similar to Nostropholean, but still 45% of the system not colonized (?)
SoulHunters same as Krill, 2 WPs open, SM5...
UkraTal is researching for SM3, still basic facilities, no upgrades, no cities, just research center 1s, miner 1, org fac.1 and such. They had a bad start, poor system, just a few planets.

I expect the Krill are going to get me soon, they are not that far away http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

JLS

March 5th, 2003, 02:50 AM

PvK

March 5th, 2003, 08:09 AM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> <blockquote>quote:<hr />
Foundations mod was a bit more like that, because you started outI didn't realise Foundations actually existed. I thought it was some kind of ultra-comlplicated uber-mod that would be the end result of years of steady development on Proportions. <hr /></blockquote>PvK, what exactly is Foundations? Is it a pre- SEIV thing or is it a future project resulting from proportions learnings?<hr /></blockquote>Its a mod that he wanted to make, but was too ambitious to be done in time, so he made Proportions instead, which is part of what Foundations is supposed to be. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I think Foundations was going to be a "complete" mod, as in it would change everything about the game, including the basics of the tech tree and all that stuff.<hr /></blockquote>That's right. Foundations was Proportions plus some "grit tech" elements at the low end of the tech tree, and a reworking of much of the tech tree, new weapons and techs, changes to all the weapon abilities, new racial tech trees, at too much more for me to get done.

I wanted to complete Foundations mod for the Gold CD, but ran out of time to enter all the changes I had planned. The changes to the "proportions" were there though, so I removed the rest made it into a mod mainly just to the proportions of the game.

I am starting to think maybe I should try to see if there are volunteers to help implement Proportions 3 and/or Foundations. It's a ton of work just figuring out what to do, and a cubic ton of work to actually do it, but maybe if we divide it up amongst some volunteers, it could work out. Of course, that still leaves a ton for me to do first... ;-)

PvK

PsychoTechFreak

March 5th, 2003, 09:15 AM

... just to the proportions of the game.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

As for the volunteers, I guess there will be some. I am probably more on the testing front and maybe some of the easier mod issues, but I would be happy to do at least what I can to make FOUNDATIONS happen. Just let us know...

dogscoff

March 5th, 2003, 10:38 AM

I've never actually done any modding, but I'll help any way I can.

oleg

March 5th, 2003, 12:33 PM

Ok. there is a HUGE AI problem in non-connect state. It is a famous "colony ship bug" described by Master Belizarious in "AI death match problem". It is a general AI problem and is not related directly to proportions or any particular AI. There is a way to fix it and I'm working on few Proportions AI. If you can delay the start of your game a little, I'll post modified files.

oleg

March 5th, 2003, 12:36 PM

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
(BTW, I have noticed some glitches in the empire setups for: Drushocka, Pequeninos, Piundon and a smaller one (150 pts not set) in UkraTal).

Following AI races are involved in this little pre-test:

-Krill (olegs latest and greatest)
-Cryslonite
-Nostropholos
-SoulHunters/Shag'Toth
-UkraTal (with 150 pts. not set)

Let's see if my watching empire will be crunched up tomorow morning. I could do a snapshot of the races and what they are looking for, before I go to bed tonight.Thanks, I never liked 5K start up and may let some mistakes creep in. Sorry about that. Just readjast points as you see fit ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

PsychoTechFreak

March 5th, 2003, 12:51 PM

Originally posted by oleg:
If you can delay the start of your game a little, I'll post modified files.Sure, I have not even started to tweak the files for it yet. I expect the main part of the adjustments will not take place before Friday and I think I need at least the whole weekend to fiddle out the settings... Take your appreciated time.

I will see what I can for the empire files, but in some cases there have been +/-2000 pts and even the recommended racial traits are not easy to put together. I just do not want to screw up the AI with it.

oleg

March 5th, 2003, 12:56 PM

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by oleg:
If you can delay the start of your game a little, I'll post modified files.Sure, I have not even started to tweak the files for it yet. I expect the main part of the adjustments will not take place before Friday and I think I need at least the whole weekend to fiddle out the settings... Take your appreciated time.

I will see what I can for the empire files, but in some cases there have been +/-2000 pts and even the recommended racial traits are not easy to put together. I just do not want to screw up the AI with it.<hr /></blockquote>As long as you keep the same traits as for 2000 start and simply beef up statistics, there should be no problems at all. Some "neutral" traits like "propulsion expert" or "hardy industrialist" would work fine as well.

JLS

March 5th, 2003, 08:51 PM

Originally posted by PvK:
I am starting to think maybe I should try to see if there are volunteers to help implement Proportions 3 and/or Foundations. It's a ton of work just figuring out what to do, and a cubic ton of work to actually do it, but maybe if we divide it up amongst some volunteers, it could work out. Of course, that still leaves a ton for me to do first... ;-)

PvK[/QB]You haven�t started Proportions 3.00 yet http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
You know I'm in and you know what I like to work on http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
So start delegating; PvK http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

NOW! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ March 05, 2003, 18:51: Message edited by: JLS ]

PsychoTechFreak

March 5th, 2003, 09:17 PM

Thinking about the spaceyard component tweaks. I understand the restriction of organic output to let's assume 50% or maybe 25% to circumvent the 1turn colonizer builds. It should be harder to clone or replicate organic material in space anyway, but not too much because of the organic races (org. armor and such) should not be screwed up with it. Another possibility could be to increase the organic needs of a colony pod AND additionally decrease of SY organic output by 50%. I mean, a colony pod could use some more than 2000 org vs. 3500 min.

PvK, was it intended to use SY components on transporters (cargo capability in question), or is it a kind of compromise?

oleg, I am going to look into your ship designs and some AI usage out of the simulation test also, but I appreciate if you provide any comments regarding SY component usage of the AI.
After >60 years all of the WP opening races are lacking minerals, organic cargo is full (as expected). All right, SM ships are expensive. A soulHunter Planet creator has been built with a religious talisman (no weapons), 17K min maintenance costs.

[ March 05, 2003, 20:15: Message edited by: PsychoTechFreak ]

oleg

March 6th, 2003, 03:19 PM

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
oleg, I am going to look into your ship designs and some AI usage out of the simulation test also, but I appreciate if you provide any comments regarding SY component usage of the AI.
After >60 years all of the WP opening races are lacking minerals, organic cargo is full (as expected). All right, SM ships are expensive. A soulHunter Planet creator has been built with a religious talisman (no weapons), 17K min maintenance costs.[/QB]Ooops http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Will take a look. I posted new Version of my AIs. The should work MUCH better in Non-connected games !

Fyron

March 6th, 2003, 07:48 PM

Nobody was this willing to help out with Adamant Mod when I asked for help. Oh well. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

oleg

March 7th, 2003, 01:56 PM

Well, there is only that much time we can spend playing, I wish I could test all mods http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

oleg

March 7th, 2003, 03:22 PM

I looked again on the proposed game specifications (poor homeworld, no AI bonus) and I have some doubts that any AI will not go bankrupt.

IT is very difficult to make AI for Proportions.
In a normal game all planets are more or less equal. If you have 10 planets, you are about 10 times better off than a guy with just 1 planet. Accordingly, AI files use "planet per item" as a rule. There is a resonably well operating AI feedback loop - more planets you have, more resources you produce, more ships you can afford. Thus, a good written "normal" AI can operate in a wide variety of settings - 3 planet start - no problems, expand 3 times faster, have 3 times more ship. High AI bonus - fine ! more planets, more ships.

The Proportions' situation is completely different. Guy with 10 colonies + homeworld does not have 10 times more resources than the guy with one homeworld. With luck, it would be just 50% more ! Hence - "planet per item" is inoperable for Proportions' AI. All Proportions' AI construction_vehicles.txt work mainly by "must have" option. As a result, there is almost no feedback and Proportions' AI are very inflexible http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif Change AI bonus to high - it still build almost the same number of ships. AI programmer must have some specific game set in mind up when tweaking AI. For example I target one homeworld, low bonus/non bonus set-up. AI should not overspend resources but must provide a challange with low-bonus. Obviously, medium/high bonuses are nice but in fact AI will underperform, it could be made much more frightening http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Now, I do not know how it will work with poor/no-bonus start. You may have to reduce all "must have" numbers by third. Just keep in mind this dumbed down AI will be a pushover in normal games ! Alternatively, You may still use low AI bonus. I do not think AI will kill you giving its poor homeworld http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ March 07, 2003, 13:39: Message edited by: oleg ]

JLS

March 7th, 2003, 06:31 PM

I looked again on the proposed game specifications (poor homeworld, no AI bonus) and I have some doubts that any AI will not go bankrupt
As would a Human player have a tough time of it; in Poor Home World Set up http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
~

It is very difficult to make AI for Proportions.
Agreed, as all Mods. SMAC, CTP, AOE etc. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
~

In a normal game all planets are more or less equal. If you have 10 planets, you are about 10 times better off than a guy with just 1 planet. Accordingly, AI files use "planet per item" as a rule. There is a resonably well operating AI feedback loop - more planets you have, more resources you produce, more ships you can afford.
Allot depends what that AI�s priority is at that time; a planet is considered for colonization. Then the Planet_Types file and the Facility_Construction files of that AI race, as it relates to the AI�s personality of the designers intent.
Also there are times the AI has a predetermined colony type locked before the colony ship is even Built and before what planet is to be considered.
More planets: do relate to more ships in most cases, however I can guarantee you this, it does not always equate to more Resources as strongly as you may think. For the reasons above and the fact that one AI may have 4 moons, domed, breathable, etc; No designer can know exactly what the next game will offer to the AI.
But if you know your MAP related files well, for the MOD you are preparing the AI for, you can do the above average job for the average game start, and hope you have done, no more then average for that average game start in respects to the AI.
Then you have succeeded http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
I hope that made, some sense!
~

The Proportions' situation is completely different. Guy with 10 colonies + homeworld does not have 10 times more resources than the guy with one homeworld. With luck, it would be just 50% more !
Agreed, one way to look at this for example:
If in a brand new Human Multiplayer game start, I would not despair or dropout while playing Proportions; even if my Home System had no land able planets, no breathable planets even if the neighboring systems are sparse.
Because my Home World would be just as good as the other Human Player, and with that, I can and (have) grown strong enough to contend with the leaders even with the very poorest of starts.
~

Hence - "planet per item" is inoperable for Proportions' AI. All Proportions' AI construction_vehicles.txt work mainly by "must have" option. As a result, there is almost no feedback and Proportions' AI are very inflexible http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif Change AI bonus to high - it still build almost the same number of ships.
AI programmer must have some specific game set in mind up when tweaking AI. For example I target one home world, low bonus/non bonus set-up. AI should not overspend resources but must provide a challange with low-bonus. Obviously, medium/high bonuses are nice but in fact AI will underperform, it could be made much more frightening http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
I think what you may want to consider is the bigger picture, when you Work the AI�s Files, you are also working on the MOD, so a post-release change with the AI�s files will/could change the Mods chemistry dramatically �.

Crystals
For example: If you add
Entry 5 Type := Colony (Gas)
Entry 5 Planet Per Item := 200
Entry 5 Must Have At Least := 2
Entry 6 Type := Colony (Rock)
Entry 6 Planet Per Item := 180
Entry 6 Must Have At Least := 3
Entry 7 Type := Colony (Ice)
Entry 7 Planet Per Item := 160
Entry 7 Must Have At Least := 4
~
Crystals
To what was:
Entry 3 Type := Colonizer
Entry 3 Planet Per Item := 50
Entry 3 Must Have At Least := 2

The above now possible changes to your sets that you have made available for download looks harmless but will have a bigger impact then you think on Proportions 2.53 over all�

As a recommendation only. That you make patient little changes to a Post-Release AI and then test the effect on its Parent Released Mod thoroughly.
~

Now, I do not know how it will work with poor/no-bonus start. You may have to reduce all "must have" numbers by third. Just keep in mind this dumbed down AI will be a pushover in normal games ! Alternatively, You may still use low AI bonus. I do not think AI will kill you giving its poor homeworld http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
You can do the above average job for the average game start, and hope you have done, no more then average for that average game start, in respects to the AI. Then you have succeeded.
This way all changes from (default) may be Automatically addressed by the AI better http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ March 07, 2003, 18:45: Message edited by: JLS ]

PsychoTechFreak

March 7th, 2003, 09:04 PM

The AI appears to have severe problems with "no WP connected" anyways. I will repeat another test with high bonus and 10 planets start but I guess it will not be much better:

-new Krill AI 5000pts, mining aptitude impressive
-no WP connected
-medium settings (I have dropped the idea of poor start), no bonus, 1 planet start

game date: 2827 (427 years later)
-TWO WPs have been opened, a WP opener ship is surfing through the systems just sucking up minerals (25K/turn), mineral resources zero, org+rad is filled completely.
-7 ships and a few sats, a medium breathable planet 2 sectors away from home is filled with megalopolies, the other planets are fairly developed with monoliths, megaplexes
-Researching for SM 8 (sphere world placement generator, mmh, maybe I should let it run for another while...)

With all of the other tests before, I have never seen AI opening more than 2 WPs yet.

Some thoughts about the rest of the game setup, although it will be boring if the AI will be that inactive:

-Guzzling supplies. I have created two additional racial tech entries without costs: supply usage +50% and supply usage +100% to get some experience with it. A first level colonizer with supply cargo I (6000) would have supplies for 25 sectors if supply guzzling (30%) and +100% is set. Funny, the restricted traits that are set for guzzlers do not work, I mean you can set what you want, e.g. power conservation and guzzling to get a reduction by 25% + an increase by 30% (makes not much sense, I know).

-I have found some objections against the mass increment, or "engines per move". If I would increase them too much, the long range weapons become too overpowered. And if the colonizer would e.g. just move 1 sector per move with 8 engines it would be no difference if it has supplies or not (because of the min. 1 emergency drive).

-Human players should do some self-restrictions, like: it is not allowed to build troops or colonizers in space. I still favor the idea to decrease organic output of SY components drastically and additional to that I would prefer higher organic costs of colony pods. It has to take some 10 years to build a colony with a SYS, so that colony ships would have to be launched from planets only and always. OTOH this would be bad for organic races, any ideas to circumvent that?

PsychoTechFreak

March 7th, 2003, 09:29 PM

Ich werd' bekloppt http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

1st test results:

SE4 verursachte einen Fehler durch eine ung�ltige Seite
in Modul WINMM.DLL bei 015f:bfe18e6c.
Register:
EAX=00000000 CS=015f EIP=bfe18e6c EFLGS=00010206
EBX=83206118 SS=0167 ESP=01abfedc EBP=01abff0c
ECX=d43df5a0 DS=0167 ESI=83105ff8 FS=3a9f
EDX=8310501c ES=0167 EDI=832060ac GS=0000
Bytes bei CS:EIP:
c7 46 40 00 00 00 00 33 c0 5f 5e c2 08 00 53 56
Stapelwerte:
d480ef90 83105ff8 bfe18f45 83105ff8 832060ac bfe13522 bfe138e6 832060ac 000003bd 83105ff8 83106040 00000000 01abff6c bfe13544 832060ac 000003bd

oleg

March 7th, 2003, 10:10 PM

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
Ich werd' bekloppt http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

1st test results:

SE4 verursachte einen Fehler durch eine ung�ltige Seite
in Modul WINMM.DLL bei 015f:bfe18e6c.
Register:
EAX=00000000 CS=015f EIP=bfe18e6c EFLGS=00010206
EBX=83206118 SS=0167 ESP=01abfedc EBP=01abff0c
ECX=d43df5a0 DS=0167 ESI=83105ff8 FS=3a9f
EDX=8310501c ES=0167 EDI=832060ac GS=0000
Bytes bei CS:EIP:
c7 46 40 00 00 00 00 33 c0 5f 5e c2 08 00 53 56
Stapelwerte:
d480ef90 83105ff8 bfe18f45 83105ff8 832060ac bfe13522 bfe138e6 832060ac 000003bd 83105ff8 83106040 00000000 01abff6c bfe13544 832060ac 000003bdDuhh, I know. It happens every time Krill builds Ringworld http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

PsychoTechFreak

March 8th, 2003, 07:04 PM

This looks better, 10 planet start, high bonus, low research costs, after 40 years tech tree is completely researched, resources in treasury is at maximum:

Cryslonite 1st place, 114 planets, 18 systems, good planet development, seen a planet with 3 arcologies, some monoliths, complexes. But a few weird things also: military installations and refining colonies build a lot of space port+resupply depots (e.g. 11 of them + a few distribution centers). Net min resources per turn: approx. 4 million, impossible to use up.

Krill 3rd place, 36 planets, 6 systems, planets with multiple distribution centers and SP+RD also, but they seem to avoid building cities, I do not see even one minor city.

Piundon Last place, 1 system, 1 WP has been opened to an asteroid belt. Planet development looks normal, 1 distribution center, 1 SP+RD, a megalopolis or metropolis, rest research complexes or similar.

UkraTal 2nd place, 9 systems, 48 planets. One or two planets with multiple depots, SP+RDs.

Now it's about to find a compromise where the AI does not run out of resources. For me it looks like the AI seems to stop almost everything when it is lacking resources, could it be true?

JLS' AICampaign looks interesting for another attempt of no-WP-connected. If the AIs even do their job under finite resources...

JLS

March 8th, 2003, 07:36 PM

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:

JLS' AICampaign looks interesting for another attempt of no-WP-connected.
If the AIs even do their job under finite resources...Are you testing AI campaign with DOS batch program. Are you testing it in Finite Mode?
You do know Finite play for the AI may not be represented well with this dos test, do to the fact that it is Balanced against a Human Players growth, as it relates with resource value depletion. (basically saying) not AI vs AI http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Do you understand, how the AI is helped in Finite Play with the Finite MOD.
Finite Mod: has been in use for several months now with AIC and works very well for the AI against multiple Human players http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Do you enjoy Finite play your self?

AI opens warp Points, creates planets from asteroids and constructs the desired colonizers etc; as well as a balanced research program in a not connected state. ~Already; at its release! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Important note for your test: Eee (science race) is the race currently specializing in many advanced Stellar task in AIC.

Thank you for your

Input. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

If you have positive suggestions that can make AI Campaign better, we would greatly appreciate this. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif PsychoTechFreak

[ March 08, 2003, 18:51: Message edited by: JLS ]

PsychoTechFreak

March 8th, 2003, 09:33 PM

Are you testing AI campaign with DOS batch program. Are you testing it in Finite Mode? No to both questions. All I have done so far is, I have downloaded 2.01 a few days ago and I read through the interesting AIC thread. I understand the AI tests more as a search for a challenging setup for WP not connected solo play.

Do you understand, how the AI is helped in Finite Play with the Finite MOD. I have to say no, not really. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif But maybe I am going to understand more after some tests. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Do you enjoy Finite play your self? A big YES ! I like setups and mods which are as close to reality as possible, that is why I am looking for a good setup with a long time isolated in or near the home systems http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

What do you recommend for a finite resource + no WP connected game? Or do you think it would be too much? 3 rich planets start at least, I think.
The EEE will be part of the 1st test that I cannot await now anymore...

JLS

March 8th, 2003, 09:34 PM

Actually, the allot of the research files has been a work in progress for AIC of the past year, with priority changes and all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

What races do you think should excel in Stellar Manipulation?
All

Some

or Just science race?

JLS

March 8th, 2003, 10:00 PM

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif Sorry one up http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif

[ March 08, 2003, 20:21: Message edited by: JLS ]

JLS

March 8th, 2003, 10:02 PM

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:

What do you recommend for a finite resource + no WP connected game? Or do you think it would be too much? 3 rich planets start at least, I think
posted by JLS:
~~~
Actually no warp and finite, seems it might be very unreasonable for the human Player� Human won�t have a chance, not even slight. Against this AI in AIC; with this setting. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

I guarantee you; this AI will do it with [one planet] default set up ; and this AI will do fine in No warp, Finite !!!! no need for extra starting planets. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

AI warp break out will be Eee first followed by the order of there
Intelligence (Research value)

Suggestion, only one data change for me, in your test if you would!!!!

[\AICampaign\Data] Settings.txt
Back up before change!

Please change below settings:

Minimum Computer Player High Setting := 12
Maximum Computer Player High Setting := 13
Minimum Neutral Player High Setting := 6
Maximum Neutral Player High Setting := 7

This will insure the largest amount of AI participants in your test�.

If uncomfortable with changing file, I will upload?

Start your no warp, Finite; AI test game with
Number Computer Players= {HIGH}

[ March 09, 2003, 02:25: Message edited by: JLS ]

PsychoTechFreak

March 8th, 2003, 10:07 PM

Originally posted by JLS:

What races do you think should excel in Stellar Manipulation?
Science races should excel in SM, but the others should not be restricted or too poor in it. Maybe I am wrong, but to me it looks like the most AIs have been programmed to poor SM usage because of the danger to run out of resources due to maintenance costs.

PsychoTechFreak

March 8th, 2003, 10:12 PM

Originally posted by JLS:

If uncomfortable with changing file, I will upload?No problem, I am familiar with the files. I will follow your suggestions and am looking forward to the results.

JLS

March 8th, 2003, 10:15 PM

JLS

March 8th, 2003, 10:45 PM

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JLS:
[qb]

What races do you think should excel in Stellar Manipulation?
~

Science races should excel in SM, but the others should not be restricted or too poor in it.
Agreed http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
~

Maybe I am wrong, but to me it looks like the most AIs have been programmed to poor SM usage because of the danger to run out of resources due to maintenance costs
AI Campaign Deals with this issue very well,
now the only limits are the imagination of you and I. Restricted only by base SE4 capability Rules.

The challenge now is to keep a balance so the AI won�t be overbearing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ March 08, 2003, 21:36: Message edited by: JLS ]

JLS

March 8th, 2003, 10:55 PM

Another request for your test:

Please use default 12 galaxies map

Always click finite on before RE-generating a map!
This for all se4 Finite games other wise all planets may have 1k resource.

Large map will also insure the most AI participants in your test

Thanks, again http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ March 08, 2003, 20:57: Message edited by: JLS ]

oleg

March 9th, 2003, 03:59 AM

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
This looks better, 10 planet start, high bonus, low research costs, after 40 years tech tree is completely researched, resources in treasury is at maximum:

Cryslonite 1st place, 114 planets, 18 systems, good planet development, seen a planet with 3 arcologies, some monoliths, complexes. But a few weird things also: military installations and refining colonies build a lot of space port+resupply depots (e.g. 11 of them + a few distribution centers). Net min resources per turn: approx. 4 million, impossible to use up.

Krill 3rd place, 36 planets, 6 systems, planets with multiple distribution centers and SP+RD also, but they seem to avoid building cities, I do not see even one minor city.

Piundon Last place, 1 system, 1 WP has been opened to an asteroid belt. Planet development looks normal, 1 distribution center, 1 SP+RD, a megalopolis or metropolis, rest research complexes or similar.

UkraTal 2nd place, 9 systems, 48 planets. One or two planets with multiple depots, SP+RDs.

Now it's about to find a compromise where the AI does not run out of resources. For me it looks like the AI seems to stop almost everything when it is lacking resources, could it be true?

JLS' AICampaign looks interesting for another attempt of no-WP-connected. If the AIs even do their job under finite resources...This is weird !!! They all use basically the same AI_planet_selection file. It just does not look right http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif There should not be much difference in colony development by those races !! The multiple spaceports/distribution centers - are they on the same planet or on different planets in the same system ? If the later - it is the unavoidable Proportions problem. Here is why: When you specify colony type it will be used either in home system or in a new one. Thus, you must somehow include "space port" ability in every planet building queu (you don't know what type will be selected in the first planet in a new system ! Now, the catch is that Cultural ceneter has the "space port" ability. If you list "space port" in, for example "mining colony", AI will try to build Cultural center on every such planet http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif Hence, space ports have bogus ability for AI sake. Unfortunately, when AI utilize this ability, it overlooks preexisting structures in Homeworld. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif It does result in complete mess if AI colonise faster then it builds new spaceports. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif I don't know how to solve it.
_________

Why don't you use "not warp points connected" , large galaxy and cluster type for your game ? It should produce nice small unconnected clusters - ideal for development before serious action ! Ai should behave better too I think

[ March 09, 2003, 02:04: Message edited by: oleg ]

PsychoTechFreak

March 9th, 2003, 08:03 PM

Originally posted by oleg:
The multiple spaceports/distribution centers - are they on the same planet or on different planets in the same system ? They are on the same planet, I have seen some with 12 distribution centers. The distribution centers somehow even make sense because of the empire cargo abilities, but the multiple SP+RD...?
I am going to do some SE4Batch simulations to adjust the necessary AI bonus settings. If I find an example of a late status of a simulated game, I could send a savegame to you to observe. The savegame from the 400 year test has been done with modifications to the racial traits, I am afraid it can just be used together with my modifications.

PsychoTechFreak

March 9th, 2003, 08:39 PM

Originally posted by JLS:
Another request for your test:

Please use default 12 galaxies map

Always click finite on before RE-generating a map!
This for all se4 Finite games other wise all planets may have 1k resource.

Large map will also insure the most AI participants in your test

Thanks, again http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif JLS, I am going to try my best, but there are a couple of problems which could have to do with my 400Mhz steam PC or with SE4batch (from Master B.). A setup with max players has not worked, it has stucked/crashed within the first 2 turns. I will try again at my laptop which is faster and more stable.

So far I have done a 100 year test with the Eee and Cue Cappa. Weird, the Eee have not opened WPs although they have the necessary SM techs. OTOH the Cue Cappa open a lot of WPs. And I have seen now what you have done to balance the AI expensive components and facilities http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
If you are interested, I could send you a zip with backups taken every 5 years (about 3.5 Mbytes).

AIC contains a lot of ideas that I like, especially about the colonizers, starliners and SY ships. But I also miss some of the nice cities of the origin, like metropolis, megalopolis etc. and the huge amount of cargo stocks in cultural centers and the time it takes to build them. But I need some more long term experience with AIC before I get a better picture of it.

Finite resources http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif : I have seen the AI scrapping their homeworlds when the unavoidable 0 of minerals has been reached after about 20 years. It is not that big deal, because of the lower costs of AI cultural centers, but ...

What if cultural centers would have value improvement abilities, maybe just for minerals? Two possible ways:
1) Either 2 or 3% (stacking), so the home world would never run out of resources
2) Difficult, balanced with starting resources in a way that the depletion is slightly below break even point.

I know it is not possible without changing back the facilities.txt if you play without finite resources. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

oleg

March 10th, 2003, 03:20 AM

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
They are on the same planet, I have seen some with 12 distribution centers. The distribution centers somehow even make sense because of the empire cargo abilities, but the multiple SP+RD...?
...[/QB]I never saw it before. Very strange. It simply should not happen ! What is the colony type ? There might be some mistake in AI file or in Facilities.txt file.

JLS

March 10th, 2003, 06:20 AM

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:

--------------

Thank you for Suggesting the test for AIC in no warp, none finite. PsychoTechFreak. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I am sure allot of this information exchange, may be of use to all.
I am curious on:
What map did you use?
The Large map, that was just an optional request for this test here, not a new test request.
Did you regenerate for a good map http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
~

So far I have done a 100 year test with the Eee and Cue Cappa. Weird, the Eee have not opened WPs although they have the necessary SM techs. OTOH the Cue Cappa open a lot of WPs.
Thanks for the info on the Eee, I will make some tweaks.
How did the Cue Cappa colonize? I assume they have many planets?
~

If you are interested, I could send you a zip with backups taken every 5 years (about 3.5 Mbytes).
Definitely, please send me the zip file http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
~

AIC contains a lot of ideas that I like, especially about the colonizers, starliners and SY ships. But I also miss some of the nice cities of the origin, like metropolis, megalopolis
I agree with you. However when we were testing with the LAN group the questions arose that in the 'origin', with so many City upgrades, that by the time a human would get to the Megalopolis; in some games, the game may be near over or ended before.
With this in mind the AIC system is a progressive evolution from a early settlement to a vast Colonial Cultural Center.
AIC currantly has Colonial Community, City, Arcology, Colonial Cultural Center.
Certainly more can be added if the majarity wishs.

You could not see this in the DOS test,
but I also added: A refining family as well. Refining Community, Refining Society and Refining Center.
To complement the Agrarian Facility group.
With some neat new Images. Check it out http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I also was able to add Race Specific Construction. For example: Crystal Construction that allows the Crystals or what ever race to have some individual Culture Centers from the start. As well as much more options opened now for future upgrades. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
~

and the huge amount of cargo stocks in cultural centers
We felt that �Huge amounts of cargo stocks� takes away from the challenge of having to Balance an economy... Also new in AIC for example Mining out Posts, Organic Domes and Refining stations that are easy to build and setup on an Astroide or planet, not to mention Trade Centers and a few others to boot.
Resources storage in AIC is increased the same way base SE4 is, by building Storage facilities, with a further incentive of building Urban Centers; that also add Empire Storages as well as research, Min,org and rad resources generation, plus intrinsic and cumulative Imperial trade, intel, etc.~. These are definitely worth building!!!

cultural centers the time it takes to build them
Do you feel that it is to long in AIC to build cultural centers? Actually it may be 20% faster then the 'origin'. And about a 75% faster for a Colony Cultural Center if it had to start from scratch as it is with 'origin'. If the Colony Cultural Center progressively upgrades from the Arcology, it is even faster to construct http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

But I need some more long term experience with AIC before I get a better picture of it.
I hope you do get a chance to boot up AI Campaign, I would apreaciate all the feed back I can get. And I think you will enjoy it.
My Email address is above or at my site below.
~

Finite resources: I have seen the AI scrapping their homeworlds when the unavoidable 0 of minerals has been reached after about 20 years. It is not that big deal, because of the lower costs of AI cultural centers
In regards to scraping ships or Base Yards !
How many Planets, ships and bases and units did each have???
The AI had to have allot of ship, or the AI would not have scraped anything!
And this is good, right. In a one planet, no warp, Finite Game! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

How many units and what make up was on there home worlds?
~~~~
I can program this AI to have (THOUSANDS+) of the Highest level Base Ships and Dreadnoughts (any ship or base) with out the AI Blinking in regards to Maintenance and they wont scrap anything in AIC.

I can prepare a test file on the above for you to see for yourself and post. I will have it for you tomorrow� OK?
But this is not necessary all you have to do is check out the vehicle Data file and search the AI balance Techs. With this I can set the AI to Pay no Maintenance on any ship we want, and they will never scrap anything.

But what would that do for play balance against Human players� The best way to keep the AI Players that are lucky enough to Colonize a lot of planets, in check; is Maintenance other wise the Human Player would have NO chance. Not to mention AI's with only a few planets by bad start being gobbled by large prolific AIs.
After you check out the Vehicle file, and understand, let us know with a Post what you think� Please !!!

In regards to scraping in itself, this is no big deal (like growing pains for the AI), even if/when the AI scraps some Base Yards or some lower prioritized ships, do to a better researched tech retrofits (as it relates to total increased maintenance) he will just rebuild (better ships then) what he scraped; when he upgrades resources facilities, colonize new planets etc�. As a human would! Well some humans may scrap most just(mothball)
~

What if cultural centers would have value improvement abilities, maybe just for minerals? Two possible ways:
1) Either 2 or 3% (stacking), so the home world would never run out of resources
Good question (Planet Value improvement) abilities, this has been mentioned a few times by players, matter a fact Oleg form you Last test mention this.
Think about this, if this was ON a AI Cultural center, that planet Value would sky Rocket, true. and if captured by a human player in a multiplayer game, the game would now be way unbalanced for all other human players.
If this is installed to benefit system colonies then ROCK AI could rule to the Prolific nature of rock planets se4.
As you will see in the Vehicle Data file, this facility will be unnecessary any way for the AI!

Now with this said, in all the AIC games I and many others have played, the AI makes hundreds of ships!!! As we all will see when you post the total ships and there make up in your DOS test. Then they scrap ships as there Components techs increases to a lower amount but with much more potent ships.

How ever, if you think the AI should get more ships in this One planet, No warp, Finite game test. Let me know and I can give the AI any number of ships form 1 to 200000 thru the Vehicle data file, under AI Balance. But remember, a human will have the same disadvantages in one Planet, on warp, finite, what situation would he/she be in, when/if opened warp in 10 or 20 years and what would you want the AI to look like. Do you have that 20 Year AI ship count for Cue Cappa and Eee!!!. The AI may be more balanced then you think at that 20 year mark, in a one Planet, no warp, finite http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

2) Difficult, balanced with starting resources in a way that the depletion is slightly below break even point.
If I understand your statement correctly:
This is regards to Finite: There must be a depletion, if there was none, then if captured by a human player with CCs in tact that Human player will have a planet that never depletes. Giving that human a great advantage over another in Multiplayer games.

Note: All specific resource generation is intrinsic and cumulative when Finite off. As it states in the read me file!
--------
Thank you for the heads up on the Eee, and I look forward to the test save game; you may Email to the Address below and we look forward to seeing the Post on 20 year Ship/base counts and makeup DD, CV, BB etc and Home World unit counts as well� Or I can post from the save if you like.

Thank you very much for the effort you put into this test� I look forward to Tweaking the Eee as per you recommendations�

In regards to tweaking this AI. Approximately, how many turns do you think would elapse for a human to achieve enough warp to exit his one system. In one planet, no warp, Finite game? Do you think I should target this AI to achieve warp before or after the human achieves his goals as well as warp?

Also is it possible for a human Player; to deplete his planets of resources prior to receiving warp tech in a one system, no warp, FINITE game.

John.

[ March 10, 2003, 08:14: Message edited by: JLS ]

PsychoTechFreak

March 10th, 2003, 10:24 AM

Originally posted by oleg:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
They are on the same planet, I have seen some with 12 distribution centers. The distribution centers somehow even make sense because of the empire cargo abilities, but the multiple SP+RD...?
...I never saw it before. Very strange. It simply should not happen ! What is the colony type ? There might be some mistake in AI file or in Facilities.txt file.[/QB]<hr /></blockquote>This morning I have stopped a simulation with your some 8 AIs after 92 years. It took about 10 hours (JLS, I guess we need to test max. 2-3 AIs at a time to get some reasonable longterm data, I have not yet got it started on my laptop, it is a winXP problem. And I will reply to your to your long reply, but I need some time for it).

I have just taken extensive looks over the planets and I have not yet seen the phenomenon above any more, but maybe it is a kind of interim thing somewhere around 50 years.
Setup was: unmodded proportions 2.5.3.1, SE4 Gold patch 3, 1 planet (good/rich) start, low bonus, no WP connected, infinite resources. Backup taken every 5 years.
With this setup the AI did not run out of resources, I need to find a slightly lower bonus setup somewhere at the threshold between rich and poor...

I am not sure if I can take a deeper look into the sim files tonight, I will not be at home before 10:30 p.m.

The zip is 5.7 Mbyte and I have it taken (burned on CD) to my office. Do you want me to send it to your attention, oleg? Be honest, please... if you do not find the time, I will observe the files tomorrow (latest).

oleg

March 10th, 2003, 03:16 PM

I think I know what happend when one AI build 15 resupply depots on one planet ! In fact, it is quite funny:

As posted before, Proportions' AI can not use "spaceport" and "resupply depot" abilities to select buildings - it will start to buils Cultural centers everywhere. Insted, it uses "emergency energy" as a codename for "spaceport" and "emergency resupply" for "supply depot". Only spaceports and resupply depots have these bogus abilities. But buildings under "large support facilities" do not have these bogus abilities ! It was PvL# idea and I'll talk about it later. AI is not suppose to "know" about "large support facilities" - There is no such entry in any AI research files. So normally AI build spaceports/resupply depots without any problems. Now, suppose AI find "large support facilities" tech. in ruins, steal from humman player or somehow else. Now, when it builds Spaceport/Resupply depot, it can UPGRADE them to better buildings, but after the upgrade buildings LOSE bogus abilities. AI is still instructed by construction_facilities file to build buildings with "emergency energy" and "emergency resupply". Thus, it builds new one, upgrade, build... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

If Pvk restores bogus abilities to "large support facilities" this problem would never arise ! And there is no danger AI will build expensive facilities - it stilll can not research "large support facilities" tech !

Actually, this build-upgrade loop can be used for AI benefits - what if we assign some bogus ability to minor cities only and use it in AI files ? Even after AI discovers large cities, it will always build minor cities first and then upgrade http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Exactly what we, humans do in Proportions games http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

JLS

March 10th, 2003, 08:18 PM

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
JLS and AICampaign answers:_______________________

The simulation files that I have sent to your attention have been created from mid-life large, based on 255.Great, I can't wait to Download them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

" Based on 255 "?
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif You have made other changes in the setting files?
~

JLS:"Did you regenerate for a good map?"
PTF: (Yep).
Excerpt from AIC readme, as well as previous post.
Always click finite on before RE-generating a map! Otherwise ALL planets may have 1k of resorces!
There by possibly corrupting game planet values at start!
~~~

I have seen some of the neat additions in a recently started solo game. I am curious what happens if I take more than 1 racial trait, maybe organic + temporal, what kind of cultural center do I get in this case? So far I always use religious/organic which results in agrarian cultures of course.
Thanks. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

The game will start with about 50% of the general Cultural Centers and then mix the remaining with your racial choices, in AIC http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Temporal CC gives you a little extra Research, so you will have more of Temporal, then Agrarian CC's, in the Last 50% of starting Cultural Centers

I have Religious Construction set up in AIC, but no Religious Cultural Centers as of now, do you or anyone have any suggestions for a Religious Cultural Center so I may add this to the next upgrade !!!
~
I agree, probably I need some more experience with it. It was just a bit annoying to waste a lot of resources in the finite resources games at the beginning.
As would, any start from a se4 game in finite play)�
With �origin� in finite however; you would loose all resources in a few years at the Home World, is this not true! Hence, one would not be able to continue a finite game with the �origin�

You also have Imperial Trade in AIC, This more then makes up for any wasted surplus in the (first two years) until your 2nd or 3rd colonizer is in the air, when you start a resource deficit . The Trade Center will also help in regards to wasting resources by trading for needed recourses, don�t you agree?
~

from the files I have seen that you have made them cheaper. My first thought was about: probably too inexpensive ? But I also need more game play experience with it...
Thank you, I appreciate your interest, you will notice it will take less then 15 years with about 100 to 200 Million people on the planet (in city) to upgrade from a City to an Arcology. This does not seem unreasonable?
~
I have not observed units or ships, just facilities - extensively I admit. The only issue I have seen is, a few turns after, or probably at the same turn the minerals reach zero point:
All cultural centers have been scrapped, only three facilities remain: SY, and the other 2 I might be wrong: resupply depot and a port or similar. You will see it from the files. I send you
In regards to ships, that�s ok, that you did not post the amounts and makeup as you did in Olegs tests; by you saying the AI scraped ships, the AI had to have a, good many of them, or he would not of scraped anything. AI methodology in this respect is in my previous post.

You are telling me the AI is scraping planetary facilities? I did not know se4 has this ability of the AI scraping Facilities???
~~~
I am going to check out the vehicle Data file. If I get a notion of it, I will do some tweaks for the planned 12-galaxies simulation, or you could reply to my e-mail, whatever comes first.I would prefer you do this, thereby understanding the vehicle Data file, any moder can set the AI to have as many ships or Bases as he/she would like; by circumventing Maintenance restrictions to any level on any ship or base in the AI Balance Mod here in AI Campaign. Although caution is offered, in regards to Balance. You don�t want somebody; to have a 800 turn game go sour, just because an ambitious AI designer gave the AI 400 Dreadnoughts or base ships in the end; just to have the most powerful AI in the universe.
If you or any other players needs a hand with AI Campaign or its Sub-Mods, please let me know, this is a new and different concept for the AI� I will surly help you as best I can.

Regarding the planned 12-galaxies simulation or any tests; maybe should wait to be sure the DOS Batch program is compatible with Non SE 4 Based Data files.
Certainly until I tweaked the AIs research and other files from the results of your Last test. Don�t you agree?
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Do not misunderstand, I am thinking about every homeplanet (the humans included) could have infinite resources ! I mean, just to circumvent the problem with AI scrapping cultural centers when HP is depleted, from above. I know this would be a problem if you switch back to a game with infinite resources, you would need two different facility.txt files for both types of games, otherwise the value percentages would go up, that is correct.
If a human wants an advanced engineering tech (Value Improvement Plant) for his home world he/she can still research it and then build it on the home world, true!

In regards to the AI, I don�t believe the AI scraps any facilities in se4 or AI Campaign after the game starts. Have you tested your DOS batch program before you advanced any turns to be positve that the Facilities are in good order from the start?

With this being true, and the AI does not Scrap facilities, then there may be a flaws in your test or a bug with the DOS program or it only works with BASE se4 Mods. Meaning no disrespect what I am about to say: Your test may not be valid with the tests you have been running for this AIC and Oleg�s AI in his mod.?!?
This flaw can be proven to exist in seconds; by just starting a new game (with out the DOS batch program) with the parameters we discussed. Then checking all facilities and you will notice the Planet and the the CCs on the HomeWorlds are as they should be; as I just did!!!

Poor Oleg, you may have him so concerned, that his AI empire is making weird facilities. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
~
Did you set up the tests with the defaults that we mentioned for the AIC test. One planet, no warp and finite correct, I feel it is possible you strayed from the test parameters that we discussed; from in the startup or other pre file data changes. Is it possible that you added another mod to AIC inadvertently, there by overwriting AICs data files because, Default should have not been Mid Life, it should have been the top map in quad startup menu at setup, and there is no way in AIC; you could get 255 systems, this would break the SE4 map editor. So I have it set at the Optimal setting of about 114 systems, so others may use se4 Map editor in conjunction with AIC!

So with the Above true; in regards to the AI NOT scraping facilities in SE4 and AIC, then there would be no reasons to change anything in AIC or have dual facility text files, for the reasons you stated. What do you think?
~

Well, I need a better feeling for AIC to provide an assumption of a turn count, give me some time.
If I look at the AI SM component costs, I guess it could be scary to meet the first AI. I think the AI should achieve warp at approx. the same time as the usual human setup, balanced to a let's say 120% research candidate. I mean, if the Eee are set up with 130%, they should warp a bit earlier than a 120% race.
I agree, you are right on at 120% research candidate.
So we would want the AI to Appear way after the Human Player (75-100 turns), via warp, and give the Human Player the Advantage here, so he may obtain a good foot hold (And let the AI just try to take it from them), don�t you agree. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
But if the Human Player looses focus on Stellar Manipulation for lets say 75-100 turns in a warp race, then so be it!
~

That should be avoided somehow. Value improvement plants, micromanaging, I guess this will be difficult to balance out. Or probably: indepletable home planets by value improving cultural centers.
I believe all players would deplete the Home World of All recourses in se4 and most/ALL mods currently for Space Empires IV there by causing that game to terminate from lack of resourses with the one system, Finite, with no warp Test. Possably, before warp is achieved. Don't you agree?

However with Finite Mod in AI Campaign: Allows the Human Player to stay in the game and not terminate thru lack of treasury; by use of Imperial Trade.
I believe, what I stated in earlier post to be true!

Actually no warp and finite, seems it might be very unreasonable for the human Player� Human won�t have a chance, not even slight. Against this AI in AIC; with this setting. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif


[ March 10, 2003, 20:48: Message edited by: JLS ]

JLS

March 10th, 2003, 08:24 PM

PsychoTechFreak,

I have not received save file yet?
Were you able to send it.
No hurry, just FYI...

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ March 10, 2003, 18:37: Message edited by: JLS ]

PsychoTechFreak

March 11th, 2003, 02:56 AM

JLS and AICampaign answers:

What map did you use? The simulation files that I have sent to your attention have been created from mid-life large, based on 255.
Did you regenerate for a good map Yep. For the next simulation I will use your suggested 12 galaxies with finite resources and regeneration maps until "good". But yet I have to got it to run under XP, I will try a (Master B. suggested) SE4 batch workaround not before late tonight.

You could not see this in the DOS test,
but I also added: A refining family as well. Refining Community, Refining Society and Refining Center.
To complement the Agrarian Facility group.
With some neat new Images. Check it out
I also was able to add Race Specific Construction. For example: Crystal Construction that allows the Crystals or what ever race to have some individual Culture Centers from the start. As well as much more options opened now for future upgrades. I have seen some of the neat additions in a recently started solo game. I am curious what happens if I take more than 1 racial trait, maybe organic + temporal, what kind of cultural center do I get in this case? So far I always use religious/organic which results in agrarian cultures of course.

We felt that ‘Huge amounts of cargo stocks’ takes away from the challenge of having to Balance an economy...I agree, probably I need some more experience with it. It was just a bit annoying to waste a lot of resources in the finite resources games at the beginning. I definetely need a SE5 feature to shutdown facilities http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif .

Do you feel that it is to long in AIC to build cultural centers?No, from the files I have seen that you have made them cheaper. My first thought was about: probably too inexpensive ? But I also need more game play experience with it...

How many units and what make up was on there home worlds?I have not observed units or ships, just facilities - extensively I admit. The only issue I have seen is, a few turns after, or probably at the same turn the minerals reach zero point:
All cultural centers have been scrapped, only three facilities remain: SY, and the other 2 I might be wrong: resupply depot and a port or similar. You will see it from the files.

I can prepare a test file on the above for you to see for yourself and post. I will have it for you tomorrow… OK?
But this is not necessary all you have to do is check out the vehicle Data file and search the AI balance Techs. With this I can set the AI to Pay no Maintenance on any ship we want, and they will never scrap anything.I am going to check out the vehicle Data file. If I get a notion of it, I will do some tweaks for the planned 12-galaxies simulation, or you could reply to my e-mail, whatever comes first.

This is regards to Finite: There must be a depletion, if there was none, then if captured by a human player with CCs in tact that Human player will have a planet that never depletes. Giving that human a great advantage over another in Multiplayer games.

Note: All specific resource generation is intrinsic and cumulative when Finite off. As it states in the read me file!Do not misunderstand, I am thinking about every homeplanet (the humans included) could have infinite resources ! I mean, just to circumvent the problem with AI scrapping cultural centers when HP is depleted, from above. I know this would be a problem if you switch back to a game with infinite resources, you would need two different facility.txt files for both types of games, otherwise the value percentages would go up, that is correct.

In regards to tweaking this AI. Approximately, how many turns do you think would elapse for a human to achieve enough warp to exit his one system. In one planet, no warp, Finite game? Do you think I should target this AI to achieve warp before or after the human achieves his goals as well as warp?Well, I need a better feeling for AIC to provide an assumption of a turn count, give me some time.
If I look at the AI SM component costs, I guess it could be scary to meet the first AI. I think the AI should achieve warp at approx. the same time as the usual human setup, balanced to a let's say 120% research candidate. I mean, if the Eee are set up with 130%, they should warp a bit earlier than a 120% race.

Also is it possible for a human Player; to deplete his planets of resources prior to receiving warp tech in a one system, no warp, FINITE game.That should be avoided somehow. Value improvement plants, micromanaging, I guess this will be difficult to balance out. Or probably: indepletable home planets by value improving cultural centers.

PsychoTechFreak

March 11th, 2003, 09:45 AM

I have sent it to the mail address of your HP about 20 hours ago. Watch out for Thomas_... with a 3MByte attachment. Maybe it takes some time, FBI and CIA are busily observing a lot of combat.trn files nowadays.

EDIT: After about 30 hours I have received the delivery failure report because : Remote system no longer responding. Is your e-mail address at the bottom of your homepage up to date? I try again.

[ March 11, 2003, 13:18: Message edited by: PsychoTechFreak ]

PsychoTechFreak

March 11th, 2003, 10:23 AM

" Based on 255 "?
You have made other changes in the setting files?
Did you set up the tests with the defaults that we mentioned for the AIC test. One planet, no warp and finite correct, I feel it is possible you strayed from the test parameters that we discussed; from in the startup or other pre file data changes. Is it possible that you added another mod to AIC inadvertently, there by overwriting AICs data files because, Default should have not been Mid Life, it should have been the top map in quad startup menu at setup, and there is no way in AIC; you could get 255 systems, this would break the SE4 map editor. So I have it set at the Optimal setting of about 114 systems, so others may use se4 Map editor in conjunction with AIC!
No, not more than this. I like to play maps at max. size, but I will change it back for the discussed simulation. I have not yet found the time to get back to it. The simulation files, that I have sent, have been taken from before our discussion.

Always click finite on before RE-generating a map! Otherwise ALL planets may have 1k of resorces!
There by possibly corrupting game planet values at start! I am familiar with the issue. I have observed the planets of the first backups also, the homeplanets have been setup correctly (2M/2M/2M or 1M?)

Regarding the planned 12-galaxies simulation or any tests; maybe should wait to be sure the DOS Batch program is compatible with Non SE 4 Based Data files.
In regards to the AI, I don’t believe the AI scraps any facilities in se4 or AI Campaign after the game starts. Have you tested your DOS batch program before you advanced any turns to be positve that the Facilities are in good order from the start?

With this being true, and the AI does not Scrap facilities, then there may be a flaws in your test or a bug with the DOS program or it only works with BASE se4 Mods. Meaning no disrespect what I am about to say: Your test may not be valid with the tests you have been running for this AIC and Oleg’s AI in his mod.?!?
This flaw can be proven to exist in seconds; by just starting a new game (with out the DOS batch program) with the parameters we discussed. Then checking all facilities and you will notice the Planet and the the CCs on the HomeWorlds are as they should be; as I just did!!!

Poor Oleg, you may have him so concerned, that his AI empire is making weird facilities.
The DOS batch program works on basis of the same procedure as the turns are processed in PBW. It takes SE4.exe to compute the turns and it uses the mod paths that you setup the simulation with, similar to the modpicker program. It is necessary to kickstart a simulation: setup a simultaneous game, perform the first turn as human player with complete AI turned on; the initial setup of the homeplanet looks all right. After the first turn has been saved, you start the batch prg to compute the following turns. Your statement would imply that every PBW game with mods would get into trouble ! I have checked after 15 years, the CCs are on the homeplanets, 20 years: I have got a message like: "the minerals on planet x (homeplanet) have been depleted sire", and the CCs have been scrapped without any other facility projects within the next years. But I will repeat some tests about it. What happens in your tests after the minerals have been depleted ? Do you process under simultaneous and without watching the AI?

[ March 11, 2003, 10:43: Message edited by: PsychoTechFreak ]

JLS

March 11th, 2003, 07:38 PM

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
[QUOTE]
The DOS batch program works on basisIf I offended you, in any way; I apologize. I thank you for our discussion, with your help I will be able to tweak the AI as not to be overbearing in a warp race! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
And tone there research etc, so the human will have more of a chance: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

�with [one planet] default set up ; and this AI will do fine in No warp, Finite !!!! no need for extra starting planets.�
~~~~~

In regards to my statement:

�maybe should wait to be sure the DOS Batch program is compatible with Non SE 4 Based Data files.
In regards to the AI, I don�t believe the AI scraps any facilities in se4 or AI Campaign after the game starts. Have you tested your DOS batch program before you advanced any turns to be positve that the Facilities are in good order from the start?
With this being true, and the AI does not Scrap facilities, then there may be a flaws in your test or a bug with the DOS program or it only works with BASE se4 Mods. Meaning no disrespect what I am about to say: Your test may not be valid with the tests you have been running for this AIC and Olegs AI in his mod.?!?
This flaw can be proven to exist in seconds; by just starting a new game (with out the DOS batch program) with the parameters we discussed. Then checking all facilities and you will notice the Planet and the the CCs on the HomeWorlds are as they should be"

I felt your statements warranted this reply, here are your Posts:

I have seen the AI scrapping their homeworlds when the unavoidable 0 of minerals has been reached after about 20 years

All cultural centers have been scrapped, only three facilities remain: SY, and the other 2 I might be wrong: resupply depot and a port or similar. You will see it from the files.

I mean, just to circumvent the problem with AI scrapping cultural centers when HP is depleted
~~~
Actually, I assumed you have had a lot of experience in space empires IV, and would know that a cultural center was a Facility, and that the AI in se4 never scraps Facilities.
I guess I was surprised you would post statements as above in your (Quotes), if, knowing the AI does not scrap facilities.

Unless I am misunderstanding you; and there is another issue?

No matter, it is difficult to express ones self with the written word, and I am no writer, but there is one thing I want you to know: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
I appreciate the effort and time you put into this and that a lot of our discussion has helped with AIC. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
In regards to scraping Facilities, I mean...well you know what I mean. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Thank you very much for your assistance PsychoTechFreak http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

John

[ March 11, 2003, 18:06: Message edited by: JLS ]

PsychoTechFreak

March 11th, 2003, 08:32 PM

I don't feel offended, I am just annoyed a bit about my lacking time at the moment. I would like to help a lot more, but I can't. Again, I have not yet read all of your post, but I will answer later.

This is what I have digged up now:
Version 1.24:

7. Fixed - AI should scrap any atmospheric converters if the desired
atmosphere has been attained on the planet.

Version 1.20:

18. Fixed - Improved the AI's scrapping of uneeded facilities in a finite
resource game.
The bottom fix now makes some sense to me: It looks like the AI feels the cultural centers become worthless when minerals are depleted, because the CC does not produce any minerals at that time. But I will test it again (without batch program, but I guess it will be the same, at least with our finite setup).

PsychoTechFreak

March 11th, 2003, 10:08 PM

All right, I have seen the scrapping of CC facilities now also without batch program.

It looks a bit like a not intended feature, but I need to investigate more about it:

This is what I have done:
-Changed settings.txt to 255 systems max.
-changed plr starting resources high to 2000, so the homeplanet would be depleted after the first turn
-game setup was AIC, large midlife quadrant, 1 good planet start (but with the modded 2000 min start)
-high research, everything researched from the beginning, cos I thought it could be that the AI wants to build something else than a CC

Turn 1: homeplanet depleted, but nothing else within the next turns, CC facilities ok

About one year later (2401.1), I just see the message: scrapped ship xxx, but no message about scrapping facilities, I investigate the homeplanet facilities window and what has happened? Only a spaceyard and a spacedock 2/20 facilities at the homeplanet.

Mmmh, looks a bit weird and could be either intended or a bug, but it obviously has nothing to do with SE4batch.

Anyway, I am going to do some more tests about it before the next simulation.

JLS, I have found another mail address in the mod picker window, when your mod is picked (...@msn.com), should I take this one next time? Or did you receive my files in the meantime?

EDIT:
It is the same with turn based, WPs connected, finite resources, proportions, medium quadrant strands:
Approximately one year after the homeplanet has been depleted, the CC facilities are gone. No message about it also (same as in AICampaign).

JLS, I think we need a workaround for AIC/proportions games with finite resources. I am going to continue some simulations with infinite resources now, because I think it does not make much sense to continue finite resources with these conditions. SE4batch and AI deathmatch#2 computing can be trusted again !

PS: To make it clear, all of the tests above have been done without SE4batch !

[ March 11, 2003, 20:51: Message edited by: PsychoTechFreak ]

JLS

March 11th, 2003, 10:51 PM

Ahh, I see what you mean regards to scraping facilities, now!
Thanks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

But that was fixed so long ago.

The solo AIC game I am playing now, is in turn 688; I am in 9th , out of 12 AI Players and 6 Neutrals and 1 independent. (with View all players scores)
I check on a differant AI, about 10 turns, on average, thru out this game, with the AI having constant up and down resource deficits. ALL AI Home Worlds Culture Centers are fine.

I have Grand Lord Vito AIC save game, GVL is in 2nd of his 732 Turn game and all AI Cultural Centers are Fine, in that game as well�.
There is one Organic race that went from 2nd to 3rd Place with losses to ships and Planets and ran a {Currant total} resource deficit now for over (allot) of turns; All Cultural Centers are fine for that race.
1rst Place is held by AI Player with 281 Ships and 13 bases has a net per turn of in lowest of +7332 per turn.

Sorry, I don�t know what to say, about your DOS test. Every thing plays fine in regular game play, with ALL types of Culture Centers.

I can send you the Save Game files if, you like?

I guess the Space Empire Patch�s in v1.20 and v1.24 has worked. Is it possible that the DOS Program you are using has data in it that predates the above Patchs? I don�t know, I have not received your Email yet from your test.

~~~~~

How does other MODs stack up to your test, that have similar Urban Centers facilities?

My teen age son and I are currently playing Adamant Mod they have facilities Similar.

Proportions MOD also uses Cultural Facilities that are Similar.

With the same Parameter test, will there Urban Center End up missing? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

[ March 11, 2003, 20:55: Message edited by: JLS ]

PsychoTechFreak

March 11th, 2003, 10:56 PM

Read my EDIT below:

EDIT:
It is the same with turn based, WPs connected, finite resources, proportions, medium quadrant strands:
Approximately one year after the homeplanet has been depleted, the CC facilities are gone. No message about it also (same as in AICampaign).

JLS, I think we need a workaround for AIC/proportions games with finite resources. I am going to continue some simulations with infinite resources now, because I think it does not make much sense to continue finite resources with these conditions. SE4batch and AI deathmatch#2 computing can be trusted again !

PS: To make it clear, all of the tests above have been done without SE4batch !
After your homeplanets have been depleted completely (0 minerals) you need to wait about another year, then take a look again ! It looks like a misunderstanding, I am talking about resources depleted on the planet (values on 0kT), not about a lack of AI resources.

[ March 11, 2003, 21:01: Message edited by: PsychoTechFreak ]

JLS

March 11th, 2003, 10:59 PM

Great, it looks you may, have found something...
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
If you did, and we fix it. I want your name on this Finite Mod as well!!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ March 11, 2003, 22:37: Message edited by: JLS ]

JLS

March 11th, 2003, 11:11 PM

Regarding EMAIL, please use any.

Thanks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

PsychoTechFreak

March 11th, 2003, 11:16 PM

JLS, I have sent an empty test mail to the other (msn.com) address.

You can reply any Eee tweaks to the mail (if you hopefully receive this one).

Are you still interested in the old 100 year simulation? Both (Eee and Cue Cappa) had the mentioned CC scraps after about 30-35 years, so I am not sure if it helps a lot. I better wait for your input first.

JLS

March 11th, 2003, 11:42 PM

Originally posted by JLS:
Great, it looks you may, have found something...
But still!

You haven�t yet posted what the AI has for.
Ships, Bases, Unit and make up is. at turn 20 years?

Or Posted what there Total Empire status is?
Total income versus Expenditures.

Evan with your test, you found them re-facilitating there home world ...

They may still be competitive in your test http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
and are currantly competitive in Finite; with-out one system, no warp start .... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

~~~~~~

But No problem (we can make them better) I have a fix for this thru AI_Construction_Facilities, Home World: Tweaks, but first I need to see your tests�

Good job, PsychoTechFreak http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Now more important then ever. Please, please, Hurry, hurry� http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
send me Both the DOS test and the other no dos test for AIC save.gam with all the files you changed so I won't corrupt that game when I advance turn!

[ March 11, 2003, 23:29: Message edited by: JLS ]

JLS

March 11th, 2003, 11:50 PM

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
JLS, I have sent an empty test mail to the other (msn.com) address.

You can reply any Eee tweaks to the mail (if you hopefully receive this one).

Are you still interested in the old 100 year simulation? Both (Eee and Cue Cappa) had the mentioned CC scraps after about 30-35 years, so I am not sure if it helps a lot. I better wait for your input first.Please, send the one hundred year test...
And any thing you can...
This may be invaluable...

I will have UPS; pick up your hard drive, if you like http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif (Kidding) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

I believe we can fix this for all mods that use Finite with CCs... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Thanks to your research http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
and the DOS program http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ March 11, 2003, 22:04: Message edited by: JLS ]

JLS

March 12th, 2003, 12:22 AM

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
JLS, I have sent an empty test mail to the other (msn.com) address.
I have not receive any thing yet, but that�s ok, it will come.

The other day, Master Belisarius sent me a huge attachment that was fine thru

CES-Incorp@msn.com

PsychoTechFreak

March 12th, 2003, 12:40 AM

I do not get what happens with my e-snails at the moment http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

But still!

You haven?t yet posted what the AI has for.
Ships, Bases, Unit and make up is. at turn 20 years?

Or Posted what there Total Empire status is?
Total income versus Expenditures. All right, all right, if I do not get my snail-account to do anything tonight, I fear I would have to send the files from my office tomorrow *sigh*.

Here we go:
20 years: I have done a wrong observation before, the CCs have been scrapped later (30-35 years)

Eee: Score 198.6K, Resources 43.8K,Tech levels 69, 2 planets, 1 system, 6487 units, 34 ships, 6 bases
Net mineral resources per turn: 21.8K

Cue Cappa: Score 203.7K, Resources 32.8K,Tech levels 62, 4 planets, 1 system, 10256 units, 50 ships, 3 bases
Net mineral resources per turn: 20K

35 years: CCs have been scrapped

Eee: Have built 4 Communities, 1 planetery shield network III and a central comp. complex II at the HP (SY and Dock still exists)
Score 177K, Resources 17.4K,Tech levels 97, 2 planets, 1 system, 7883 units, 28 ships, 6 bases
Net mineral resources per turn: -1142

Cue Cappa: 1 Community at HP, Score 116.7K, Resources 4.6K,Tech levels 70, 4 planets, 1 system, 25166 units, 34 ships, 3 bases

100 years:
Eee: Have built 5 Communities, 1 planetery shield network III and a central comp. complex III at the HP (SY and Dock still exists, upgraded to level II)
Score 70K, Resources 6K,Tech levels 120, 2 planets, 1 system, 8516 units, 12 ships, 0 bases
Net mineral resources per turn: -348

Cue Cappa: 1 Community at HP,SY III, Dock II, Score 132.1K, Resources 4.5K,Tech levels 95, 6 planets, 3 system, 27935 units, 25 ships, 6 bases
... and they open WPs like mad.

Net mineral resources per turn: -3070

send me Both the DOS test and the other no dos test for AIC save.gam with all the files you changed so I won't corrupt that game when I advance turn!If I can get it together again, I mean, you know what happens if you do 3 quick tests disregarding any backups of savegames? Anyway I have sent another try of the 100year test first.

JLS

March 12th, 2003, 12:49 AM

PsychoTechFreak,

I have your Email but no attachment http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
~~~~
"Other stuff"

You indicated that you made changes to the Settings.Txt�
If you can give me a copy of that file and any other files you may have changed along with the save games, that would be great.

I will put all your files in my AIC folders and load your test, this way there will be no way I can corrupt your data if I advance the turns http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

JLS

March 12th, 2003, 12:56 AM

Don't rush, Email http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
I am still curious on the ship and unit makeup from your DOS test, when I get the save files I will see that then.

I have the data you posted...This is enough for now, thanks. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

~~~
This can be helped thru AI_Construction_Facilities, Home World: Tweaks .

But I will see if I can stop this altogether thru the Facility data file, first. EDIT: I think it will work http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

If anyone, has other ideas please post.
~~~

I will have all the AI updated files to you after I Change and test them for a few days.

Good job, PsychoTechFreak http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ March 12, 2003, 00:03: Message edited by: JLS ]

PsychoTechFreak

March 12th, 2003, 01:26 AM

Originally posted by JLS:

I have your Email but no attachment http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
~~~~
"Other stuff"

You indicated that you made changes to the Settings.Txt?
Ya, I have seen the mess in my output folder. I will upload the stuff from my office PC tomorrow, obviously the problem at home is about bigger attachments.

I will send the settings.txts together with the savegames, I have found one AICampaign test and I will see if I can recover the quick proportions test+ settings.txt. These small attachments hopefully will go out at least.

JLS

March 12th, 2003, 01:46 AM

PsychoTechFreak,

The hundred turn, incremental save; also would be invaluable so I can track there progress!
No hurry though this can wait, till you get an opportunity, thanks.

CES-Incorp@msn.com

Did you get a chance to look at the AIC Vehicle data file yet, for AI balance Tech in ship sizes?

With a reduced maintenance on Carriers and Higher end ships; as it will relates to late game increased ship counts for the AI.

In AIC I have did very little tweaks to the high end ships for fear of play balance. I would rather a human Player do well in the end game then sour a 1000 turn game with an unbeatable AI.
It is pretty close to being on, but I will need more player input to raise AI late game ship Count.

[ March 11, 2003, 23:59: Message edited by: JLS ]

JLS

March 12th, 2003, 02:10 AM

Owe, one more thing, PsychoTechFreak.

Actually, I assumed you have had a lot of experience in space empires IV http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif

You do http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Thanks.

PsychoTechFreak

March 12th, 2003, 08:26 AM

Did you get a chance to look at the AIC Vehicle data file yet, for AI balance Tech in ship sizes? Yes, but I have not yet tweaked and experimented with it. And with AI vs. AI simulations I guess it makes not that much sense, because...

With a reduced maintenance on Carriers and Higher end ships; as it will relates to late game increased ship counts for the AI.

In AIC I have did very little tweaks to the high end ships for fear of play balance. I would rather a human Player do well in the end game then sour a 1000 turn game with an unbeatable AI.
It is pretty close to being on, but I will need more player input to raise AI late game ship Count. Agreed. But SE4batch can not help a lot with this, it is just a very good tool to compare AI vs. AI. So you need to wait upon player input from solo longterm games.
Did you install SE4batch from Master B. already? I highly recommend it, if your SE4 is running under win 95/98.

This one makes me curious now:
Version 1.24:

7. Fixed - AI should scrap any atmospheric converters if the desired
atmosphere has been attained on the planet.
Does the AI really make a reasonable use of ACs, does it scrap the ACs when the planet has turned to breathable? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

PsychoTechFreak

March 12th, 2003, 10:16 AM

Originally posted by JLS:
The other day, Master Belisarius sent me a huge attachment that was fine thru

CES-Incorp@msn.comHow huge is "huge"? MSN just sends Messages back like this:

Error transferring to smtp-gw-4.MSN.COM; SMTP Protocol Returned a Permanent Error 552 Message size exceeds fixed maximum message size I am going to cut it down...

JLS

March 12th, 2003, 04:12 PM

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
I do not get what happens with my e-snails at the moment http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> JLS:
But still!

You haven?t yet posted what the AI has for.
Ships, Bases, Unit and make up is. at turn 20 years?

Or Posted what there Total Empire status is?
Total income versus Expenditures. All right, all right, if I do not get my snail-account to do anything tonight, I fear I would have to send the files from my office tomorrow *sigh*.

Here we go:
" "
<hr /></blockquote>Evan with the harsh Parameter, For this test of:
One system, no Warp, Finite
I wonder how a Human Player, would have faired. With the same parameters; and could a human Player get out of his (one system) before depleting his resources while researching enough Stellar Manipulation Tech; to warp out. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

What would be the condition of a human player after (Nine thousand, Nine Hundred and Ninety nine) Plus Turns, with your above test Parameters and in Finite game with a default game map and setup, with the intended systems and data. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

How ever the AI in AI Campaign has survived with Income (what was the Cues total income?) and with a fleet for 1000 turns!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
~~~~~
Please, remember the AI is using AI: State Not Connected and would have only a few ships. Did the CueCappa and Eee have contact?
In AIC, most high ship construction occurs when the AI are in Attack or Defense States; and then get to increase there ship count in the AIC Vehicle Construction file when in those states.
~~~~~~

Would it be easier for you to upload to the Forum, this way circumventing our Email wows?; I only require the 100 game turn DOS test and the AIC setting.txt data file that you changed as well as any other possible Data files in AIC that you may have been changed.

Just send me the link, and I can download it from there. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Thanks. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

We look forward to the infinite test, Comparable to the tests of other players, AI�s.

[ March 12, 2003, 15:36: Message edited by: JLS ]

JLS

March 12th, 2003, 04:43 PM

PsychoTechFreak,
I am getting wierd stuff from you in my Email but no attachments. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
What does:

Singles aufgepasst!
Spielend in Kontakt kommen und neue Freunde finden in der freenet.de Community!
Jetzt durchstarten unter
Mean?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Would it be easier for you to upload to the Forum, this way circumventing our Email wows? I only require the complete 100 game turn DOS test and the AIC setting.txt data file that you changed as well as any other possible Data files in AIC that you may have been changed.

Just Email me the link, and I can download it from there. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Thanks. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ March 12, 2003, 15:05: Message edited by: JLS ]

PsychoTechFreak

March 12th, 2003, 05:13 PM

Cue Cappa and Eee had no contact, but it looks like they are not far away...

File uploading is not allowed in this forum. I could temporarily abuse the mod forum, but I do not want to get in trouble with our admins.

Attaching Files
For security reasons, you may not attach files to any Posts. You may cut and paste text into your post, however, or use HTML and/or UBB Code (if enabled) to provide hyperlinks to outside documents.

 PsychoTechFreak,
I am getting wierd stuff from you in my Email but no attachments.
What does:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Singles aufgepasst!
Spielend in Kontakt kommen und neue Freunde finden in der freenet.de Community!
Jetzt durchstarten unter

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mean?
This means you are receiving now my e-snails from 1.5 days ago. It looks like the 2 parts of the zip file are still underway (assume they will get to you in about 24 hours).

[ March 12, 2003, 15:18: Message edited by: PsychoTechFreak ]

JLS

March 12th, 2003, 05:25 PM

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
Cue Cappa and Eee had no contact, but it looks like they are not far away...

File uploading is not allowed in this forum. I could temporarily abuse the mod forum, but I do not want to get in trouble with our admins.

[QUOTE]This means you are receiving now my e-snails from 1.5 days ago. It looks like the 2 parts of the zip file are still underway (assume they will get to you in about 24 hours).Email info
"Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2003 6:17 PM
Subject: AIC attachment (PTF), sorry"
(rest in german)
~~~~~
OK, sure I can wait http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

However, I see uploads to the mod forum, all the time to help players and Moders and you are helping with this Mod right?
So what would be the problem? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Thanks, John.

[ March 12, 2003, 15:41: Message edited by: JLS ]

PsychoTechFreak

March 12th, 2003, 05:41 PM

JLS, check PM please.

JLS

March 12th, 2003, 05:56 PM

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
[QUOTE]
Did you install SE4batch from Master B. already? I highly recommend it, if your SE4 is running under win 95/98.Does SE4batch from Master B. work with XP.
In the end, I think it is great, for what it has done in your test for AIC; as well as others!

PsychoTechFreak

March 12th, 2003, 05:58 PM

Originally posted by JLS:
Does SE4batch from Master B. work with XP.
No, unfortunetely. You need win 95/98.

JLS

March 13th, 2003, 02:09 AM

I think it was just under 4 meg.
How, big is a file in se4Batch?

PsychoTechFreak

March 13th, 2003, 02:42 AM

Originally posted by JLS:
How, big is a file in se4Batch?Depends on the count of turns + how many interim backups you set up, like every year, every 10 years etc.

This one is 2.8 MByte zipped. I have cut it into two 1.4 MB pieces and I am now waiting for the next "snail-router failure message".

JLS

March 13th, 2003, 11:38 PM

A few of the guys here at the LAN group that tested finite mod, suggest that if I rework, the AI in Finite, the AI may Players become to powerful later in the game, if there is no re-facilitating of the AI recourses, and that the AI will have to be attacked early in the game by the Human player, before the Human Players depletes his or her resources in a finite game.

I will test some of their theories and get back to you on that Finite fix or if one is even required.

Thanks again for all your time and help.

[ March 13, 2003, 21:56: Message edited by: JLS ]

PsychoTechFreak

March 16th, 2003, 07:57 PM

I am curious about your finite fix.

The order of the two mods in the new topic title do not mean anything to me. Pro AIcampaign in this special solo game setup is the great ability to finetune the AI exploration speed in comparison with a human player. This could be the main reason for my preference at the moment to take this mod as my WP-not-connected platform. Con AIcampaign, some personal changes that I like and miss from a proportions perspective: e.g. the ability to stock huge amounts of resources in CC facilities but probably I will learn to live with this or I might change it to my preference later.
It turned out that my favorite game setup seems to be WP not connected which could be a big malus for the unmodded AI. But I like more realistic scenarios, like: 2400-2500 terraforming the home system, build genesis components to build planets etc.
Leaving the home system should be much later as it is in a usual game, my opinion. Roughly I have side-considered another hardcore scenario with home system stars turning to supernovae after let's say 100 years or more: research for WP openers - mass exodus, which would be a nice task in AIcampaign/Proportions. This is not a new idea of course, I recall this from PBW scenario games.

Now, coming to the "finetuning" of WP not connected:
I plan to do some quick human only tests to investigate the exploration speed of a human player to compare it with some AI batch tests. According tweaks to the AI would have to take place after that, and I guess I can count on your (JLS,PvK,oleg and everyone of the interested community of course) help or hints to make it happen. Probably I can do some of the changes to test for myself, but if I don't get into something - I will ask. Maybe some of the "learnings" (if any) could even improve both of the mods or their AIs.
The premises of a human player in a WP not connected game are about:
-go for max. research up to system university complexes
-research for colony techs and terraforming, atmosphere converters
-develop the planets of the home system, personally I don't like remote mining. I like to do value improvement, genesis projects (planet creation) and sphere worlds.
-then open WP to reach out for the next system. I guess this would make up a solo game project of several years.

JLS, I have performed another AI batch simulation:
-unmodded AICampaign 2.01 because I have started this before your recent patch. I have used the original settings, yes with 114 systems max.
-12 galaxies, no WP connected, large, 6 AI races, no neutrals

Approx. at year 2500 I have interrupted the test because although the AIs have built WP openers, they did not use them. They just sit at the border of the systems but they deny to do anything (strike?). Probably it is an issue with 12 galaxies in specific, although I think the setup looks quite ok (12 clusters of 8-10 systems each).
What can I do next? With mid-life large in the Last batch simulation we have seen a lot of WP actions from the Cue Cappa at least. Do you want me to test another quadrant setup, or do you want to look into 12 galaxies first?

[ March 16, 2003, 18:02: Message edited by: PsychoTechFreak ]

JLS

March 16th, 2003, 09:38 PM

Thanks, PsychoTechFreak. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I can understand your preference at the moment to take this mod as your WP-not-connected platform.
Please be patient, at least a week or two in regards to AI Campaign "as your preferred WP-not-connected platform".

We just covered your test in earlier Posts and now I need time to work on the AI file Tweaks.(In-between Family and work). Other wise you will just be covering the same ground as Last week.

The LAN group and I are starting Finite tests with the AI Campaign tomorrow mourning, and I do appreciate your enthusiasm. As I stated in a earlier post here in this thread, although I am happy the CueCappa and to some part, the Eee that they survived your 1000 turn test in a one system, no warp, Finite test with achieved Income and a Fleet and with the CueCappa prolifically opening warp points. I now have to tweak the AI, test them and release them.

When I designed AIC I did not even consider the above AI test in conditions one system, no warp and Finite. However I am very happy on the AI tuning in a infinite game at present, and I again thank you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I plan to have the AI fine tuned and balanced with all Research and Construction tweaks and some ALL NEW AI Stellar manipulation designs just to address yours as well as others in regards to the desire to play WP-not-connected games. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
~

In regards to �some personal changes that I like and miss from a proportions perspective: e.g. the ability to stock huge amounts of resources in CC facilities�.
I agree, the ability to stock huge amounts of resources in CC facilities makes for a much easier game. If Proportions is your preference, well, what can I say. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
~

�WP openers - mass exodus, which would be a nice task in AICampaign/Proportions�
Actually, I don�t think you can Play with any AI Players in Proportions at allor for long; in most kinds of a Finite game.
But PvK would be the best person to ask in regards to (ALL) Proportions questions.
~

�I plan to do some quick human only tests to investigate the exploration speed of a human player to compare�
Ok, but as I asked a previous AIC player and of you in a previous post here, it may be best until after I update the Not Connected AI files. Your time in the follow up of the NEW AI files; upon completion in a few weeks, as it relates to Warp Not Connected would be invaluable to all of us; then.
~

�What can I do next? With mid-life large in the Last batch simulation we have seen a lot of WP actions from the Cue Cappa at least. Do you want me to test another quadrant setup, or do you want to look into 12 galaxies first?�
Thanks, PsychoTechFreak.
Actually I would like you to hold off AIC tests until I release the AI updated files, from your first test. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I think you have done a great job with your previous se4batch tests, and with that data I will revise some AI Research and Designs files to better handle the a (No warp, Not Connected scenario) and I am happy that the CueCappa and Eee performed in that test with a income and a Fleet with the CueCappa prolifically opening warp points.

Again, thanks

John
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ March 16, 2003, 21:52: Message edited by: JLS ]

JLS

March 16th, 2003, 10:12 PM

I don�t understand why you renamed this thread , today, to include my AI Campaign Mod,(Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS)PsychoTechFreak.

Actually AI Expansion was covered in a Previous thread Several Pages ago.
Titled "slowing down AI expansion".

My reply in that thread; may applie in part, to this thread as well, now!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Over the Last few months I have grown quite to like a game that has a much slower pace.
Agreed

I feel that the AI expands to rapidly, IE it explores 20 systems to my 2.

I don't know what Mod you are referring to here�

How far can the AI go when he only has Supply storage bays of about 600 or less.
Most AI exploration ship designs I have seen have only 2 engines yielding about speed 6 with 1500 supplies tops. Now also consider the AI turns Back to his resupply base when the exploration ship is about half full of supply. The AI may be hard pressed to explore one or two systems from his home system. Until the next resupply depot is built.

The AI exploration wows are further compounded when he fleets in 2 or less years with ships having less efficient engines and possibly one to none in regards to Supply Bays.

As a human player; we use tankers (Small transports EDIT: or frigates etc.) that are full of supply bays and search with them and refuel my scouts at the same time.
I believe most humans out explore the AI (by far).

Some AIs go into partnerships sooner then a Human would, to this example the AI would see more, and there are of course the Ancients Trait this may be a benefit for you, in respects to your explorations. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Many �unlimited QNP engines� sure may allow players to farther and faster but I have never played with unlimited engines and irregardless the AI still will turn back to base, when his min supply range is triggered.

EDIT: Did and like it alot in P&N from gold CD!

I hate giving the AI the added bonus of technology as I feel the AI should keep on par with me.
I am with you here�. But if we use the search function here on the forum, we may see hundreds of Posts on how the AI can�t compete! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

I would hope that by the time Aaron releases SE V, the AI politics / diplomacy and Anger / demenour system is vastly improved.
Agreed, Along with AI better utilizing minesweeping, Combating plagues, ship training�etc.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Replies to QUOTES: by JLS.

I hope my reply to:
"I feel that the AI expands to rapidly":
Is of help to you, here, PTF.

Thanks

John
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ March 16, 2003, 21:43: Message edited by: JLS ]

JLS

March 16th, 2003, 11:05 PM

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
I am curious about your finite fix.There currently is no Finite Fix and that has not been determined whether one is even desired or needed at this time!
It is unlikely that any further abilities will be added to the Cultural Centers as you and I discussed in AI Campaign : Updates Topics.

By the designer giving (value improvement) a possible wining Strategy; to the Start of all games;
It takes a choice away from the Player and Limits a Peaceful path to Victory http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
(JLS)
~
However the local LAN group and I will test the Balance; of the AIC FINITE MOD and get back to you the end of next week; if time permits.

In regards to the AI in itself; as a result of your (one system, no Warp, Finite test).
I will be removing some AI Design Components so as just to fit the warp open component on an efficient small transport and to keep production time and cost down, and Making for a more efficient AI Player http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
Adjusting Not Connected Research to be (balanced) as to insure the Human Player a chance to break out way before the AI in a Warp Race. As we discussed in a previous post!

I would appreciate holding off, all AI Campaign tests until I get Back to you. With the updated AIC Files.
As explained in my previous Posts.

Thanks

John
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ March 16, 2003, 21:56: Message edited by: JLS ]

PsychoTechFreak

March 17th, 2003, 11:24 AM

I plan to have the AI fine tuned and balanced with all Research and Construction tweaks and some ALL NEW AI Stellar manipulation designs just to address yours as well as others in regards to the desire to play WP-not-connected games.
~Sounds great, *PsychoTechFreak patient mode active*.

...the ability to stock huge amounts of resources in CC facilities makes for a much easier game. Don't think I am searching for an easier game I am also not proposing to change it and it is not a denounciation of your change. What I mean is a matter of resource generation to stock proportions of extreme facilities like CCs and their longterm tasks. But since it is a matter of taste in this case it is out of the question.

I don’t understand why you renamed this thread , today, to include my AI Campaign Mod,(Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS)PsychoTechFreak.

Actually AI Expansion was covered in a Previous thread Several Pages ago.
Titled "slowing down AI expansion". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif
What do you mean exactly? Should I rename it to AI campaign OR Proportions?
When I have started this thread (it has been started some days before the "slowing down AI expansion" from Atrocities), I just have searched for a regarding setup or modification for proportions. I admit to have noticed the AI campaign mod a few days later. Actually what I search is speaking for both of the mods: I think about all of the modifications, emphasizing the home cultural centers, the colonizing has been modified to be harder, slow colonizers, high population mass, slow population growth, population modifiers greatly expanded to reflect production rates. With all of these "close to reality" changes I think it is inappropriate to have the ability to cross the whole quadrant with a small ship and efficient engines, fast space yard transporters which build colonizers directly over the planets etc.

By the designer giving (value improvement) a possible wining Strategy; to the Start of all games;
It takes a choice away from the Player and Limits a Peaceful path to VictoryProbably I still don't get your point or I can not make myself clear enough. To catch the falling knife of all resources depleted on a home planet with CCs you need (roughly calculated) more than 25% value improvement ability just to reach break even point. It is useless to try to straightly research for value improvement plants, scrapping the 2 worthless facilities to try to hold this up with the ridiculous 6%. If you would provide 1% improvent per CC, this would be 16-20% in total which would just slow down the free fall of resources a bit.
But you might see what I mean when your LAN group will test the issue.

Thanks a lot, I am curious about things going forward with this. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

PTF

JLS

March 17th, 2003, 03:28 PM

On the topic: [Slow down exploration speed in PROPORTIONS] this should be addressed by PvK and others in interest.
~
In regards to AI Campaign.

I hope my Post was informative in regards to AI Player Exploration in se4 General, and also as it applies to the AI Players opening game of AICampaign.

EDIT and Posted JLS:

How far can the AI go when he only has Supply storage bays of about 600 or less.
Most AI exploration ship designs I have seen or designed have only 2 engines yielding about speed 6 with 1500 supplies tops. Now also consider the AI turns Back to his resupply base when the exploration ship is about half full of supply. The AI may be hard pressed to explore one or two systems from his home system. Until the next resupply depot is built.

The AI exploration wows are further compounded when he fleets in 2 or less years with ships having less efficient engines and possibly one to none in regards to Supply Bays.

As a human player; we use tankers (Small transports or frigates etc.) that are full of supply bays and search with them and refuel my scouts at the same time.
I believe most humans out explore the AI (by far).

Some AIs go into partnerships sooner then a Human may, to this example the AI would see more, and there are of course the Ancients Trait this may be a benefit for us, in respects to our explorations. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
~

If you are referring to Human Player in respects to Topic (Slow down exploration speed ��). This was addressed already by PvK and My self in earlier Posts.

JLS:
You can reduce the capacity of the Supply Storage I, to about 250 to 300 with a 100kt increase per level after. That will limit your range some what (50%), but MAY increase the micromanagement aspect slightly by possibly requiring escort tankers for other ships. If some micromanagement is a big issue with you.
However, I like the way PvKs Proportions currently plays; especially with large Resources and Empire Storage for multiplayers!!!
and

Reducing the supply capacity of all engines?
~
JLS:
�Will this put the Ship in a possible supply problem and cause it not to sentry in some cases even one move away? Would it then be a must now to install at least one Supply Storage Bay to avoid sentry problems even after a refuel, by a supply ship?

There may be criticism that 2 engines carry the same amount of [Supply Storage] as one Supply storage bay, and what engineer would do this, but I look at the engine supply; indicative to the math required to have a ship move a desired distance to the designers intent. One could also change the sentence to read something other then 'Descr := Can store 250 units of supply' to lets say the (Pulse from a Ion Engine ????�
~
How you went from (Slow down exploration speed in PROPORTIONS) to the
harsh Parameter test, on AIC I am unsure? However, I am Pleased with your results http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
JLS:
One system, no Warp, Finite
I wonder how a Human Player, would have faired. With the same parameters; and could a human Player get out of his (one system) before depleting his resources while researching enough Stellar Manipulation Tech; to warp out. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

What would be the condition of a human player after (Nine thousand, Nine Hundred and Ninety nine) Plus Turns, with your above test Parameters and in Finite game with a default game map and setup, with the intended systems and data. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

How ever the AI in AI Campaign has survived with Income (what was the Cues total income?) and with a fleet for 1000 turns!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
~~~~~
Please, remember the AI is using AI: State Not Connected and would have only a few ships. Did the CueCappa and Eee have contact?
In AIC, most high ship construction occurs when the AI are in Attack or Defense States; and then get to increase there ship count in the AIC Vehicle Construction file when in those states.
What was your result for the above on other current Mods, in the Above test One system, no Warp, Finite how long did the (non Crystaline) AI Last with resources, I believe they would deplete in total after a few years, is this not true.
It is how Imperial Trade is set up on CC�s and Urban Centers in AI Campaign that allows the AI and a Human to maintain at least a Minimum income thru out the entire Finite Game.

If there is issues off your topic (Slow down exploration speed ��) I don�t understand your meaning or intent as of yet?
Although I do appreciate all the Positive initiatives you have invested in AI campaign to date.

I again would like to thank you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

John
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ March 17, 2003, 14:11: Message edited by: JLS ]

PsychoTechFreak

March 17th, 2003, 06:50 PM

JLS, thanks for the helpful compilation about possible supply storage modifications/considerations.

How you went from (Slow down exploration speed in PROPORTIONS) to the
harsh Parameter test, on AIC I am unsure?As far as I recall, in the beginning it was just a side-test, based upon a brief discussion with you about close-to-reality setups. But it became more and more interesting now, so I have included the worst case reality scenario into my considerations.

If there is issues off your topic (Slow down exploration speed “”) I don’t understand your meaning or intent as of yet?
With no connected setups the exploration speed is drastically slowed down. That's why I have left "slow down exploration speed".
The intention changed dynamically. All right, let me try to explain my thoughts/intentions:
Initially I just thought about a human only game setup without AIs, just to build, develop worlds, probably build artifical worlds, leave the not connected home system to explore. Without AI would be boring, right? But at this time I was sure (wrong) the AI would be completely screwed up with this setup anyway.
Then I have found your AI campaign mod, I extensively reviewed it, made some tests with the result:
The AI with a finetuned bonus plus some changes to strategies probably will be competitive and even more with this approach ! So I have taken the AI and AI campaign with the ability to do the finetuning into consideration for my solo game. Before I start my longterm solitaire game, now I would like to have AIs in place which are competitive but not with an overwhelming pace on the other side, because this could destroy the gameplay. Sorry, I seem to have problems to make myself clear, but it looks like we are at the right way now:
I am the requestor, and it looks like you are going to be the provider of my favorite game setup. Thanks in advance for that bunch of effort !

One system, no Warp, Finite
I wonder how a Human Player, would have faired. With the same parameters; and could a human Player get out of his (one system) before depleting his resources while researching enough Stellar Manipulation Tech; to warp out.

What would be the condition of a human player after (Nine thousand, Nine Hundred and Ninety nine) Plus Turns, with your above test Parameters and in Finite game with a default game map and setup, with the intended systems and data.
With enough time, you can develop high resources on the other planets of the system before even starting to deplete them. You know: Build nature shrine or several value improvement plants and just wait. Start mining facilities carefully without going under break even point. This approach would be extremely slow indeed.

How ever the AI in AI Campaign has survived with Income (what was the Cues total income?) and with a fleet for 1000 turns!!!
What was your result for the above on other current Mods, in the Above test One system, no Warp, Finite how long did the (non Crystaline) AI Last with resources, I believe they would deplete in total after a few years, is this not true.
It is how Imperial Trade is set up on CC’s and Urban Centers in AI Campaign that allows the AI and a Human to maintain at least a Minimum income thru out the entire Finite Game. Don't get me wrong now, please. To do a fair comparison to other current Mods you would have to:
Either reset your AI- SM components to the old values or reduce costs of the AI components in the other current Mods respectively. The main reason for the out-of-resource problems of the AI is SM ships with maintenance costs of 25,000-30,000 each turn. Your AI SM ships just pay 1,000-2,000 each turn from what I have investigated so far.
Imperial Trade, Urban Centers unquestionable are very nice additions to this, but in my opinion the main reason for this phenomenon is the big cost reduction of usually expensive components and facilities. But again, don't get me wrong, it is all right as long as the given AI bonus can be balanced with this approach and the bonus is not too overwhelming (at the moment I am actually afraid it is, but I have not yet encountered an AI race yet so I might be wrong).