Empire creation->Tolerance ? [Archive]

Slick

April 12th, 2003, 09:35 PM

From another thread:

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
- A 5% change in environmental resistance equates to a 1% change in Reproduction and Happiness. If you set both ER and Repro down, your population may never be able to grow.
Adding it to the FAQ.

Slick.

Grandpa Kim

April 13th, 2003, 05:48 AM

I took over an empire with Tolerance 51% and Reproduction 91%. Even then a jubilant/optimal get 1% reproduction. Must be hard coded.

Suicide Junkie

April 13th, 2003, 06:07 AM

Well there is a range of values that all get labelled "optimal", perhaps it needs to be right at 100% perfect, rather than just optimal?

Grandpa Kim

April 13th, 2003, 06:26 PM

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
Well there is a range of values that all get labelled "optimal", perhaps it needs to be right at 100% perfect, rather than just optimal?Hmm, don't think so. As soon as an optimal rolled over from happy to jubilant, it went to 1% reproduction. Honestly I was surprised. I thought I would get nothing even then and have to wait for my replicant centres to come Online.

Fyron

April 13th, 2003, 09:09 PM

What is there to be surprised about? Do the math:

10 base - 9 Repro - 9 ER + 5 optimal + 5 Jubilant = 2 reproduction

Remember, Optimal and Jubilant give an extra 1% increase in addition to the 2% per level.

Edit:
Hmm... something is weird... Optimal Jubilant planet has 2%, but Good Jubilant has 0%. Optimal seems to provide 6% bonus? Hmm...

[ April 13, 2003, 20:11: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Grandpa Kim

April 14th, 2003, 12:50 AM

Good catch Fyron!

How about this?

Unpleasant 0
Mild 1
Good 2
Optimal 4

That would explain why I'm getting 1% for jubilant/optimal and nothing for jubilant/good or happy/optimal

Fyron

April 14th, 2003, 01:54 AM

Because mild and good are supposed to have 2 difference between them, as unpleasant and mild are. That is how it was the Last time I tested them.

Grandpa Kim

April 14th, 2003, 06:10 AM

I don't know hows yus dun it but I knows yus dun it. Somehow, Fyron, you always get me to test things out and that is something I just don't bother with!

Anyway, new results show we both had some numbers wrong.

First, that empire is at 50% ER, not 51, so -10 to repro.

Base reproduction unpleasant/indifferent is 8% not 10

Happiness bonuses: Happy 2, Jubilant 5. (At least we got one right!)

Conditions bonuses: Mild 2, Good 4, Optimal 7

So, with Fyron's handy dandy formula:

8 (base) - 9 (repro) - 10 (ER) + 5 (jubilant) + 7 (optimal) = (drum roll please) 1 !

Now, I must go and write on the blackboard 1000 times. "Thou shalt not rely on memory!"

Fyron

April 14th, 2003, 07:25 AM

I don't know hows yus dun it but I knows yus dun it. Somehow, Fyron, you always get me to test things out and that is something I just don't bother with!
LOL!

Well... it has been a long while since I tested it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Asmala

April 14th, 2003, 06:15 PM

Originally posted by Grandpa Kim:
I don't know hows yus dun it but I knows yus dun it. Somehow, Fyron, you always get me to test things out and that is something I just don't bother with!

Anyway, new results show we both had some numbers wrong.

First, that empire is at 50% ER, not 51, so -10 to repro.

Base reproduction unpleasant/indifferent is 8% not 10

Happiness bonuses: Happy 2, Jubilant 5. (At least we got one right!)

Conditions bonuses: Mild 2, Good 4, Optimal 7

So, with Fyron's handy dandy formula:

8 (base) - 9 (repro) - 10 (ER) + 5 (jubilant) + 7 (optimal) = (drum roll please) 1 !

Now, I must go and write on the blackboard 1000 times. "Thou shalt not rely on memory!"I'd like to correct this a little bit.

Empire Starting Percent Reproduction := 10 (settings.txt)

Mood:
Jubilant +5
Happy +2
Indifferent 0
Unhappy -2
Angry -5
Rioting no reproduction

Conditions:
Optimal +5
Good +2
Mild 0
Unpleasant -2

You can also look this reproduction picture (http://koti.mbnet.fi/asmala/reproduction.gif) which clarify all. I have tested all of this myself and I'm sure they're correct.

Fyron

April 14th, 2003, 08:20 PM

So I was right? Hmm... resisting urge to test for self...

narf poit chez BOOM

April 14th, 2003, 08:38 PM

so, is it usefull after all?

Fyron

April 14th, 2003, 08:41 PM

Tolerance is useful for getting some free points out of the system. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

It can also be useful for getting a high reproduction rate, because 5 ER is cheaper than going from 110 to 111 in Reproduction.

Asmala

April 14th, 2003, 09:05 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Tolerance is useful for getting some free points out of the system. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

It can also be useful for getting a high reproduction rate, because 5 ER is cheaper than going from 110 to 111 in Reproduction.5 ER is cheaper than going from 110 to 111 in Reproduction only if ER is 75 or below. You get the best benefit if you drop ER to 81 and then raise the Reproduction as much as you want. It's cheaper to raise Reproduction from 129 to 130 than raising ER from 81 to 86.

Fyron

April 14th, 2003, 09:32 PM

Hmm... I thought Repro had a positive threshhold cost of 200...

I guess ER is only good for squeezing a few hundred free points out of the system then. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ April 14, 2003, 20:37: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Ruatha

April 14th, 2003, 10:00 PM

So what level is recommended for ER and reproduction?
ER 81% and repro 100%?
I mean, what gives most points without sacrificing too much.
Is there a standard, as ground combat standard seems to be 51% (or was it 50%)..

Grandpa Kim

April 15th, 2003, 01:21 AM

Posted by Asmala

Empire Starting Percent Reproduction := 10 (settings.txt) Quite right Asmala, but starting happiness is "happy", so we are actually in agreement. Indifferent/Unpleasant is the 0/0 point.

[ April 15, 2003, 00:30: Message edited by: Grandpa Kim ]

Grandpa Kim

April 15th, 2003, 01:27 AM

Fyron

April 15th, 2003, 02:25 AM

Try Berserkers, 51 ER, 105 Happiness, 109 Reproduction. No net effect (except for a 1% bonus to happiness), as many free points as you can get from ER.

Asmala

April 15th, 2003, 06:56 PM

Originally posted by Ruatha:
So what level is recommended for ER and reproduction?
ER 81% and repro 100%?
I mean, what gives most points without sacrificing too much.
Is there a standard, as ground combat standard seems to be 51% (or was it 50%)..What's the best ratio for ER and reprodution. Well, there isn't only one answer to this. If you want you can go to almost none-reproduction with 50% ER and 91% RP but I don't recommend that.

If you want to get some reproduction just set ER to 81% and don't touch to RP.

Finally there is the best ratio (at least I think so) which I use almost always. By setting ER to 81% and RP 110% you have 27% reproduction in optimal/jubilant planet and that's quite much. Also dropping ER to 81% and raising RP to 110% costs +225 points so you get points instead of losing them.

Fyron

April 15th, 2003, 06:58 PM

That also gives a 3% happiness penalty, which doesn't make that big a difference, but it does make some.

Asmala

April 15th, 2003, 07:12 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
That also gives a 3% happiness penalty, which doesn't make that big a difference, but it does make some.If you don't touch Happiness that 3% doesn't matter at all because only every 5% of Happiness are counted just like ER. Do you know how worthless Happiness is? (And to avoid confusion I mean only this game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif )

Fyron

April 15th, 2003, 07:31 PM

Where did you get only every 5% of happiness being counted from?

I just sent an email to MM about these traits, and hopefully I will get a reply soon. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ April 15, 2003, 18:34: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Asmala

April 15th, 2003, 09:28 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Where did you get only every 5% of happiness being counted from?

I just sent an email to MM about these traits, and hopefully I will get a reply soon. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Result of my own research in Newbie FAQ:

1.2.4 Happiness: Every five percentage points you increase your happiness makes 0,1% people happier every turn. For example if you increase happiness 10% it's the same effect if you have one troop on your every planet.(Asmala)

You can test it if you want but this is how it works.

Fyron

April 15th, 2003, 09:38 PM

I dunno how accurate that is. That is why I sent that email to MM. Let's just wait for the official response so we can get all of these traits clarified once and for all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Asmala

April 17th, 2003, 09:35 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
I dunno how accurate that is. That is why I sent that email to MM. Let's just wait for the official response so we can get all of these traits clarified once and for all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif No response yet?

Fyron

April 17th, 2003, 09:41 PM

Originally posted by asmala:
No response yet?Nope. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[ April 17, 2003, 20:41: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Asmala

April 23rd, 2003, 05:11 PM

No answer yet I guess.

I made some tests with happiness and ER and I noticed that ER didn't affect to happiness. If you don't believe me I can give some numbers so you can test it yourself.

BBegemott

April 23rd, 2003, 07:34 PM

Asmala writes:
I made some tests with happiness and ER and I noticed that ER didn't affect to happiness. If you don't believe me I can give some numbers so you can test it yourself.
 Imperator Fyron writes:
5 points of ER = 1 point of Reproduction + 1 point of Happiness.
It is a contradiction, isn't it? So what's the truth, after all? Any numbers are welcome.

Fyron

April 23rd, 2003, 07:46 PM

Happiness trait does not have much off an effect anyways. But ER definitely does affect happiness.

Asmala

April 23rd, 2003, 08:26 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Happiness trait does not have much off an effect anyways. But ER definitely does affect happiness.Here is how many turns it took different kind of empires to go from happy to indifferent. This indicates that ER doesn't affect to happiness. You can test this yourself you get those numbers.

Happiness 50% ER 100% 2 turns to indifferent
Happiness 51% ER 100% 3 turns to indifferent
Happiness 50% ER 150% 2 turns to indifferent
Happiness 51% ER 50% 3 turns to indifferent

When happiness is 50%:
20 (natural increase) + 10 (# of five percents) * 1 (see FAQ how happiness works) = 30 = 3%/turn.
25% people are angry at the start, 25% + 2 * 3%= 31% => mood indifferent

When happiness is 51%:
20 (natural increase) + 9 (# of five percents) * 1 (see FAQ how happiness works) = 29 = 2%/turn (round down).
25% people are angry at the start, 25% + 3 * 2%= 31% => mood indifferent

I'm certain about these number but if you don't believe ask and I can prove all.

Fyron

April 23rd, 2003, 08:30 PM

If you are correct, then ER 50 translates to 10 happiness points, which becomes 2 # of 5 percents. So, its effect is underscored by having 50% happiness.

Asmala

April 23rd, 2003, 08:38 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
If you are correct, then ER 50 translates to 10 happiness points, which becomes 2 # of 5 percents. So, its effect is underscored by having 50% happiness.What do you mean? If ER 50 == 10 happiness points
then:

Happiness 50% ER 150% == Happiness 60% ER 100%

Happiness 51% ER 100% 3 turns to indifferent
then why
Happiness 60% ER 100% 2 turns to indifferent? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

Fyron

April 23rd, 2003, 09:05 PM

Yes, that is about what I meant.

Asmala

April 23rd, 2003, 09:36 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Yes, that is about what I meant.So you finally believe ER doesn't affect Happiness? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif Or do you have some arguments why it would affect?