Anti-Matter Torpedo

[Pooka]

Okay. So the Anti Matter torpedo is a short-to-mid range weapon that does about the same damage per tech level as the DUC.

The problem is that the DUC has basically the same range, only slightly less damage, weighs 10kt less, uses 1/5th the supplies, and fires twice as often.

But the Anti-Matter Torp has an accuracy bonus!

Does it really? How much of one? I still miss with the darn things more often than I hit, with a +15 Space Combat race no less!

Is it worth the supply-hogging, slow ROF, higher research cost to go to Quantum Torps? What is the appeal of the green tubes o' death?

[Fyron]

Torpedos do not have an accuracy bonus in unmodded SE4, actually. Torpedos are completely useless weapons in SE4. In SE3, their high damage per shot balanced them against the low damage beam weapons. But, now beam weapons do as much damage as they do, and can get high damage per shot to pierce emmissive and crystalline armor via mounts.

[ April 16, 2003, 19:18: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Pooka]

So there's no reason at all to waste RP on the torpedo path at all? Makes one wonder if it's inclusion in SEIV was an oversight...

[Phoenix-D]

"Okay. So the Anti Matter torpedo is a short-to-mid range weapon that does about the same damage per tech level as the DUC.

The problem is that the DUC has basically the same range, only slightly less damage, weighs 10kt less, uses 1/5th the supplies, and fires twice as often."

Slightly less damage? You're not done with the torps when you hit AM5, you know. Next level up you get Quantums.

Anyway, yours is accuate for the AM5- mostly. The AM does have one square more range and 10 more damage, and costs less.

The Quantum 5, on the other hand..does twice as much damage. So it works just a little better. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Damage per KT:
DUC 5: 1.33
APB, range 1: 2.16 range 8: 1.5
MesonB 5: 1.75
Torp: 2.5 (1.25/turn)
ripper beam IV 2.5

For "first strike" damage, the only weapon better than the torp is massed Ripper Beams. Unfortunately you pay for it in lower damage over time and a fairly high total research cost.

Phoenix-D

[Taera]

QR are one of the most understimated weapons in the game. The point is they do full damage at max range. Those babies, put on a base or a well-rounded ship can slaughter anything. Tested! (not in PBW - in short games their high research cost kills all the usefulness)

If you have the time and dont have any racial techs i think Torpedoes are a worthy research project to undertake.

[Aloofi]

Meson BLasters and Shield Depleters are the winning combination. Cheap to research and cheap to build. Forget about the Phased Polaron Beams and the Torpedos........in Proportions.
If you are playing unmodded go straight for the Phased Polaron Beams........

[mottlee]

There is one mod (I forget the name) that has long range X-ray lasers, that and talisman are way cool granted the laser don't do a lot of damage BUT you can beat on em well before they can touch you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[PvK]

Originally posted by Aloofi:
Meson BLasters and Shield Depleters are the winning combination. Cheap to research and cheap to build. Forget about the Phased Polaron Beams and the Torpedos........in Proportions.
........<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Except that in Proportions, you can get pretty good defense without even using shields, if you want to, making shield depleters useless. Meson bLasters can also be out-ranged by several weapons, and since in Proportions small ships are useful, normal-mounted (or smaller) meson bLasters don't do a lot of damage per hit, so they suffer proportinally more from all the armor types with emissive abilities.

I like to think all the weapons in Proportions are worthwhile, but let me know if you think there are some lamers.

As for Quantum Torpedoes in the unmodded game, Taera, some things they can't kill are drones, fighters, and satellites, since the cannot target them.

Another thing you can try with slow rate-of-fire weapons is to run away while reloading, making return fire less likely to hurt (and sometimes impossible) - this can tip the damage exchange further in your favor than the rate-of-fire would imply.

PvK

[Fyron]

APB XII does more damage at max range than Quantum Torpedoes overall, and mounts make them get enough damage per shot to kill most ships in one salvo just like QT. But then, they can do it every round, not just every other round like QT. Mounts are the main reason that Torpedoes are useless weapons.

[ April 17, 2003, 00:46: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Rollo]

Originally posted by PvK:
...As for Quantum Torpedoes in the unmodded game, Taera, some things they can't kill are drones, fighters, and satellites, since the cannot target them...<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Which can be viewed as an advantage in strategic combat, since the tactical AI will not waste shots on fighters that they have a hard time of hitting anyway, but will fire on the other ships and let PDC take care of the fighters.

Rollo

[ April 17, 2003, 01:25: Message edited by: Rollo ]

[Taera]

exactly Rollo.
Fyron: a while ago, with some experimentation, i've found that SD/Torpedoe are the perfect counter to the then-popular PPB/NSP combo. My light-cruiser would beat a Rage cruiser in 1on1 combat with little damage unless they were lucky and hit something realy important.

Also there's another point - a LARGE object (base, dreadnought, baseship) can use the ultimate advantage of repulsers and tractors.

[Suicide Junkie]

Unless you can get your ships to do a variation on the missile dance, topedoes do less damage than most other weapons (only graviton hellbore comes to mind). SD/PPB or SD/APB will beat SD/Torp simply by virtue of doing more damage.

[Taera]

the tests i ran some time ago were saying differently...

edit: and GH also does plenty of damage if used correctly. remember it has the best damage at close range. been through this debate w/ fyron already http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[ April 17, 2003, 04:43: Message edited by: Taera ]

[Fyron]

Yeah Taera, and you failed to convince me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Karibu]

Even in the warp point range has meaning, though less than normally. I would suggest strong weapons with low range for use in warp point, like ripper beam. Also, a bunch of satellites equipped with Null beams are worthy.

[ April 17, 2003, 13:01: Message edited by: Karibu ]

[Taera]

have you ever met a SD/GH-armed fleet guarding a WP? no? you should.

[oleg]

The only good use of Torpedos in unmoded SEIV is for warp defence, IMHO. Since you have the first shot and all (almost all) ships are in the firing range, you would want to do max damage right now. If you wipe out or at least seriously criple enemy, you should't worry about the long reload time, right ? Torpedos and WMG are perfect for this.

[Fyron]

Why, to watch it waste all of that damage potential by not firing its extra weapons on other ships, thereby making it no more effective than ships with APBs guarding that warp point? Large APB ships nearly always destroy their target in one round of fire at close ranges already, so using Graviton Hellbores instead is overkill, and prevents them from firing much in the next two rounds.

Even smaller ships would be effective against such defense. The damage potential would be even more wasted in that first round, because they die in just a few hits. So, those GHB ships do no more than APB armed ships would do.

So, GHBs are at best no better than APBs for this use, and could potentially be weaker.

[Captain Kwok]

I would like to use torpedoes in PBW, especially in my roleplay games, instead of the same old APBs and such - but you can't just compete if the galaxy turns hostile. They should have a longer range and a bit higher damage to be worthwhile.

[TerranC]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
so using Graviton Hellbores instead is overkill, and prevents them from firing much in the next two rounds.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The cooldown rate matters not when the graviton hellbore can kill a light cruiser in one shot. (Massive mounts)

[Taera]

TerranC, a massive shot or two can prolly gut not a LC but a battle-ship once the shields are down. And one or two massive SD's would do the job. Also GH's cooldown is only two, as much as torpedoes' is.

Fyron: lets not get into this again. its rock-paper-scissors and all works.

[Suicide Junkie]

The cooldown rate matters not when the graviton hellbore can kill a light cruiser in one shot. (Massive mounts)<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Unless you're facing only a single LC with your Baseship(!), the reload rate is of critical importance.

[oleg]

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The cooldown rate matters not when the graviton hellbore can kill a light cruiser in one shot. (Massive mounts)<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Unless you're facing only a single LC with your Baseship(!), the reload rate is of critical importance.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Surely you can find spare 10 for Multiplex Tracking in Baseship ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[Phoenix-D]

"Even in the warp point range has meaning, though less than normally. I would suggest strong weapons with low range for use in warp point, like ripper beam."

Careful with this. If a large enough defending fleet and attacking fleet fight, you may find that some of the attackers are out of range when they warp in.

Ripper beams are powerful, but only if you can close the range.

Phoenix-D

[Suicide Junkie]

Surely you can find spare 10 for Multiplex Tracking in Baseship ! <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">My point is that if you don't have the ability to completely wipe out the enemy force in the first round, you're going to suffer badly from the reduced damage output.

[Fyron]

Originally posted by TerranC:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
so using Graviton Hellbores instead is overkill, and prevents them from firing much in the next two rounds.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The cooldown rate matters not when the graviton hellbore can kill a light cruiser in one shot. (Massive mounts)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ok. You destroy 1 ship per turn, as the other GHBs can't fire at other ships. So, you still gain nothing when using GHBs over APBs.

Oleg:
Surely you can find spare 10 for Multiplex Tracking in Baseship ! <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Has Multiplex been fixed in a recent patch? Last I checked, it did not work in strategic combat. Ships only fire at one target per round (discounting PDC fire).

[ April 21, 2003, 04:31: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Taera]

fyron, if a ship has a lot of cannons it will skip about 6 and then fire at next target. tested.

[Taera]

CHECK MY OTHER THREAD

[Fyron]

Originally posted by Taera:
fyron, if a ship has a lot of cannons it will skip about 6 and then fire at next target. tested.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ok, that is just as bad as not firing at multiple targets at all.

[Taera]

i know

[QuarianRex]

Originally posted by Taera:
fyron, if a ship has a lot of cannons it will skip about 6 and then fire at next target. tested.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Could you elaborate?

[PvK]

I think they're just talking about the damage threshold in strategy firing tactics. Multiplex tracking works under AI control in the current patch, so it will shoot until it reaches the indicated percentage, and then switch to a target that is not damaged to that point yet.

PvK

[Fyron]

What if the target is destroyed before the damage threshhold is reached? Does the ship fire the remaining weapons that would have been fired at that target on the new one, or just leave those weapons idle?

[Karibu]

Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
"Even in the warp point range has meaning, though less than normally. I would suggest strong weapons with low range for use in warp point, like ripper beam."

Careful with this. If a large enough defending fleet and attacking fleet fight, you may find that some of the attackers are out of range when they warp in.

Ripper beams are powerful, but only if you can close the range.

Phoenix-D<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The thing with large fleets is, that when they are big enough, they tend to be on the range at the beginning. Especially in the warp point, the starting distance is point blanc. Just yesterday I saw one combat where 100 ship fleet went through warp point and ended up in a place where was over 100 enemyships, planet, and some battle stations. The warping fleet was located in the middle and waiting enemyships were all around the intruder fleet. So, I say that range has not much meaning in the warp point, especially when you have enouhg targets just beside you.

[ April 22, 2003, 11:39: Message edited by: Karibu ]

[rdouglass]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
What if the target is destroyed before the damage threshhold is reached? Does the ship fire the remaining weapons that would have been fired at that target on the new one, or just leave those weapons idle?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Weapons that have not been fired are available for the next combat round IIRC. However, I don't know exactly about the algorythms involved when multiplex tracking is involved.

I remember with SEIII you could set the amount of "damage" that each ship was targeted, but I don't think you can w/ SEIV. Too bad - I liked that feature. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[Fyron]

I think there is a damage setting. Check the strategies editting window.

[PvK]

There is a damage setting, but Taera says it doesn't work as you might expect, and recommends experimenting with 20% and 80% settings - he says 20% works better.

As of Gold Patch 3 though, multiplex tracking is working rather well. My impression was that no firepower was being wasted as long as targets were available.

And yes, SE3 target assignment is a much cooler system. Too bad it wasn't kept in SE4. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

PvK