fighter supremacy in solo play

[Pocus]

It starts to be boring... I find the fighters so efficient in early game against the IA that I research always the same things when I start the game.
What do you research early to beat the AI, aside mines? fighters are so good compared to the cost of an early DD fleet.

[Fyron]

Play the TDM modpack. The AIs there use many more Point Defense Cannons, which slaughter fighters wholesale. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Pocus]

I'm anyway under the impression that the TDM modpack is more up to date than the devnull one.

And also that external races can be included into it whereas you have to rework the AI to do the same under devnull. Am i right?

[oleg]

The single worst AI problem is its inflexibility. It is very easy to make AI that will be almost invulnerable to Fighters, but then human will use normal beam ships and walk over it. Most AIs are made to be (semi)efficient against average, generic opponent. My advice would be not to abuse it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Find a good tactic against AI - try another one. Just for roleplaying reasons and simply having fun with SE multitude of approaches http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Q]

Originally posted by oleg:
The single worst AI problem is its inflexibility. It is very easy to make AI that will be almost invulnerable to Fighters, but then human will use normal beam ships and walk over it. Most AIs are made to be (semi)efficient against average, generic opponent.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That is indeed the most important weakness of the AI and I hope this will change in SE V. It should be not that difficult for the AI to analyse the enemy forces and make some very basic adaptations of its designs and constructions.
At the moment the best thing I found is to play a game against several AI empires with very differents ships designs and construction files: One AI will use a lot of fighters, an other ships with long range beams, another will use missiles and lots of PDC, again an other armor or shield skipping weapons ... and so on.
Then I can not use one single design/strategy against all my enemies.

[ April 26, 2003, 14:13: Message edited by: Q ]

[Gryphin]

One way to "self ballence" your play against the AI is to build your ships with PDC and mine sweepers even though you do not need them.

To make it harder. Don't research either till you run into a race that uses them. Sort as a race that never envsioned the existance of space mines, fighters, or Capital Ship Missels.

There are a quite a few other ways to "Fight With One Hand Begind Your Back" if you like we could start another thread.

[ April 26, 2003, 14:19: Message edited by: Gryphin ]

[Grand Lord Vito]

Originally posted by Pocus:
It starts to be boring... I find the fighters so efficient in early game against the IA that I research always the same things when I start the game.
What do you research early to beat the AI, aside mines? fighters are so good compared to the cost of an early DD fleet.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Try AI Campaign MOD by JLS it uses Tactical Fighters and the AI is Very Tough http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

AI Campaign (http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=008319)

[ April 26, 2003, 18:17: Message edited by: Grand Lord Vito ]

[Pocus]

I DL the mod after your recommendation. I have yet to try it but from what I see it is heaviy inspired from Proportion.

Also it seems that the AI are not compatible with the standard or TDM games, so you are limited to an handful of races.

Aside that I will anyway try it, I'm sure there is interesting points in it.

[Grand Lord Vito]

Originally posted by Pocus:

Also it seems that the AI are not compatible with the standard or TDM games, so you are limited to an handful of races.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">In regards to Compatible that is why it is a MOD, and TDM does not use Plate armor, combat bridges etc and use the standard fighters you where unhappy with?

JLS is adding all the Races from se4 although AI Campaign has most already and will be Porting Star Trek and Other races as well. But like I said, AIC has been out for a month.

I wanted to help but it tricky and it takes to much time designing an AI files. I tried http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ April 27, 2003, 13:11: Message edited by: Grand Lord Vito ]

[Master Belisarius]

Originally posted by oleg:
The single worst AI problem is its inflexibility. It is very easy to make AI that will be almost invulnerable to Fighters, but then human will use normal beam ships and walk over it. Most AIs are made to be (semi)efficient against average, generic opponent. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Mostly agree with you. Does exist a few near to inteligent reactions: lay mines inside the suns if the AI know the opponents is using sun destroyers, and research mines more fast (to get mine-sweepers), if the opponent was using mines (although I'm not sure if this Last feature was not removed).
As AI modder, always wanted to have a way to MOD some triggers (for example, if the opponent is using many fighters/seekers, include PDC ships in the fleets, if the opponent is using claked ships research sensors more fast), and for this, I suggested some kind of languague to "program" the AI behavior... My wihs/hope is that for SE5 (or SE6?) we could have something like this!

[Instar]

Originally posted by Q:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by oleg:
The single worst AI problem is its inflexibility. It is very easy to make AI that will be almost invulnerable to Fighters, but then human will use normal beam ships and walk over it. Most AIs are made to be (semi)efficient against average, generic opponent.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That is indeed the most important weakness of the AI and I hope this will change in SE V. It should be not that difficult for the AI to analyse the enemy forces and make some very basic adaptations of its designs and constructions.
At the moment the best thing I found is to play a game against several AI empires with very differents ships designs and construction files: One AI will use a lot of fighters, an other ships with long range beams, another will use missiles and lots of PDC, again an other armor or shield skipping weapons ... and so on.
Then I can not use one single design/strategy against all my enemies.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oh, but AI programming is very hard. Its a long windy process and such. It can be done though, AIs in games like B&W are very powerful.

[JLS]

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
As AI modder, always wanted to have a way to MOD some triggers (for example, if the opponent is using many fighters/seekers, include PDC ships in the fleets, if the opponent is using claked ships research sensors more fast), and for this, I suggested some kind of languague to "program" the AI behavior... My wihs/hope is that for SE5 (or SE6?) we could have something like this![/QB]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That would be a great additition, lets hope.

[Grand Lord Vito]

AIC is about a month old and yes is inspired from Proportions I think AIC expands the AI, Culture Centers and some economic changes so it plays well in finite and Solitaire Simultaneous.

I like it and AI Campaign is very addictive when playing solitaire and it has lots of potential. JLS next upgrade should address some Race balance issues and add some more gadgets
What is your favorate Race, I like the temporals.

I thinks the Fighter Tactical Mod is the first time tried in the game and it stops you from attacking the AIs planet with an AIR strike from one hex away . Only interceptors shoot every turn so Fighters are not as deadly in AIC, as in se4 when all that a Human Player needed is about 6 carriers and a few troop ships and you could win every game. Well almost every http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ April 27, 2003, 13:17: Message edited by: Grand Lord Vito ]

[Q]

Originally posted by Instar:
"Oh, but AI programming is very hard. Its a long windy process and such. It can be done though, AIs in games like B&W are very powerful."

Yes if you mean that the AI has to make completely new designs as a reaction to the enemy of its own. But I thought as Master Belisarius of just switching from one predefined design to an other according to the enemy. There is even in SE IV a statistic about how much enemy vehicle kT have been destroyed by a specific design. If you use something like that and then specify that e.g. if more than 50% of the own losses are caused by fighters/missiles/drones the AI will switch to a different set of ship designs and construction file, which the human who created this AI defined for this case.

[Aloofi]

Originally posted by Gryphin:

There are a quite a few other ways to "Fight With One Hand Begind Your Back" if you like we could start another thread.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yeah, help the AI not doing anything the AI doesn't do. Like Strategy bombing.

[Grand Lord Vito]

Aloofi.
AI Campaigns Tactical Fighter MOD most AI fighters use cluster bombers and when they get thru they pack a punch.

[ April 28, 2003, 21:27: Message edited by: Grand Lord Vito ]