Fight Dirty? [Archive] - .com.unity Forums

Pooka

May 5th, 2003, 03:33 AM

Okay, so I'm in a PBW game with some local friends. Sure enough, the two people in the game who get along the least well got shoved right next to each other in a corner. That being me and this other guy. (We'll call him Hippo to protect identities here and 'cause I'll need a name for him.)

So, Hippo's got like a dozen systems and 30+ planets. I've got 3 systems (boxed between a black hole with the #1 player's home system on the other side of it and Hippo's empire.) with perhaps 18 planets. Most of those are brand new gas giants I'm working towards colonizing since getting the tech to do so about a game year ago.

Naturally he's able to utterly out-produce me, he's got the support of two other complete newbies who've fed him a lot of tech before I informed them how bad an idea that was.

So he's got Dreads, I've got... (don't laugh) cruisers but really I use Frigates and light carriers.

Looks like I'm hosed right? Well, there's more. Hippo, you see, is a complete newb. He's done such classic things as build space stations on battleship frames. Not a big deal, right? Well, except he didn't give them engines or supply storage so they're just dead weight.

Other ships have DU1s and DU5s on the same frame... it's a mess.

What's more, he doesn't group his ships into fleets, he just leaves them in a big stack. He's camping the warp point, as am I, but I'm doing so with intent to build Psychic academies and such and build up a fleet of small, high-potency ships to work him over with.

Meanwhile I find his newest, biggest ships and hit them with intel projects. (I'm pretty sure he has intel tech, but can't find the intel button, etc.) So every 3 turns or so I get a new battleship or dreadnaught or space station. I then run his ships in suicide attacks at his colonies 'cause he has no mid-system defense. I've taken to grabbing the occasional mine layer to boot so I can lay mines in his back quarters and make life hell on him.

The problem is, I see dreads and I'm getting nervous. I know he's got minefields to boot. It'll be very hard for me to extract him from his position.

If you guys would be so kind as to help me put a newbie in his proper place and teach me not just to fight off this obviously superior foe, but to fight DIRTY so I can possibly win enough to build an industrial base, I would really appreciate it.

The Last thing I need is this guy gloating for eons and eons.

Gwaihir

May 5th, 2003, 04:24 AM

Well, although he's got issues with the finer details and micromanagement, it sounds like he understands the fundamentals of play very well. He got lotsa colonies, and exploited other players effectively. Are you sure he hasn't practiced on the side, say vs the AI? I didn't play SE3 Online until I could beat 9 hard AIs on computer vs. humans team play, and I never lost a game (although I was accused on one occasion of being a second ID for a known player, which seems less of a possiblity if you know this guy).

If he gloats, set him up in a game with an expert. That'll "put him in his place." If he doesn't bite, then he's got less justification to gloat. Newbies that think too highly of themselves tend to get smacked.

If he has no system defense, can you get to him with stellar manip?

Not many people are going to give you their dirty fighting tricks, cause those are majorly important strategy secrets, brought out only when necessary.

Hotfoot

May 5th, 2003, 05:25 AM

Work up to communications mimic, then screw over all of his alliances. If he is an uber-newb, he's going to be ultra-reliant on trade with his allies. You would seriously hamper his economy, and thus buy yourself some vital breathing room.

Also, once you can get into his space, consider sending some plague bomb ships (with as much ECM/stealth&scattering armor/ship&fleet experience as you can muster) in to his colony worlds. Go for the ones least likely to be defended and pick them off one at a time. After that, try to plague his major colonies. Then follow up with your primary invasion force.

That should be enough to get you started.

Pooka

May 5th, 2003, 05:51 AM

Originally posted by Hotfoot:
Work up to communications mimic, then screw over all of his alliances. If he is an uber-newb, he's going to be ultra-reliant on trade with his allies. You would seriously hamper his economy, and thus buy yourself some vital breathing room.The problem here is that he's not reliant on trade, and someone allready botched a comm mimic on him so he'll be wary of that. On the other hand, I'm trying to covert-recon his spaceports and set them up as targets so I can move in and cripple his economy without having to extract him from every single planet in the system.

Also, once you can get into his space, consider sending some plague bomb ships (with as much ECM/stealth&scattering armor/ship&fleet experience as you can muster) in to his colony worlds. Go for the ones least likely to be defended and pick them off one at a time. After that, try to plague his major colonies. Then follow up with your primary invasion force.
This is good stuff, but the entire player group 'cept for 3 of the 8 (myself included) have almost no experience with SEIV personally. I also know the people on the other side of him will rally to his cause if I use plague bombs. (They're hardcore RPers) I've been racing up Intel and ECM as fast as I can, in an attempt to make my frigates more competitive with his dreads. I've also started leaning on fighters and sats and mines since they don't require maintenance costs. I'm close to taxing my available resources (including my current trade income) just keeping a comparable fleet to his going. I'm probably just screwed but I'm hoping to at the very least make the war something worth remembering. Next game I won't be so foolish as to mess with tech I've never used before. I hadn't played with Psychic until this game and expected it to have intelligence bonuses. Boy was I dissapointed.

Thanks for the advice though. I do appreciate it.

Ragnarok

May 5th, 2003, 06:35 AM

Here is a tip I don't know if you thought of it yet.
When you capture his high tech ships with your intel projects, take those ships back home and analyze them. You will gain a level in ship construction for free basically this way. If you do this 2 or 3 times, you will have Dreads as well floating around.

Gwaihir

May 5th, 2003, 07:00 AM

Sounds like the only WPS in and out are guarded pretty heavily, so that probably won't work too well. Unless he can get one of the blockading ships, and newly acquired ships don't engage on the first turn.

Karibu

May 5th, 2003, 08:24 AM

If he is inexperienced, he might neglete using point defence. If so, then your cruisers with missiles will shatter his ships out of existence before he has a chance to shoot.

Oh, I forgot to mention that with cloacking you can get past his ships in the warp point if he uses no scanners.

[ May 05, 2003, 07:27: Message edited by: Karibu ]

Gwaihir

May 5th, 2003, 08:39 AM

ooh, cloaking, good point. But if he has a lot of tech, he prob. has sensors

[ May 05, 2003, 07:39: Message edited by: Gwaihir ]

Taera

May 5th, 2003, 08:39 AM

Im not an expert and have little experience in PBW but...

scanners are annoying and if he is the way you describe him he prolly has none.
Remember that Stealth armor gives you cloaking.
Dont send in a fleet - send in hunter ships that would pick on colonies and lone ships. Find his central production sites and plague them (not useful this time tho as it seems). Also find his mining colonies and rad-bomb them. If you need to take on a planet remember to bring in some planetary napalms, they're quite useful.

Vary your tactic - once try on with a lot of fighters and missile cruisers, then when he gets PDC go in with some direct-fire weapons.

For warp-point combat consider the Graviton Hellbore weapon. though many might jump on me here nothing compares with it in a single-shot.
Either that, or ripper beams.
SHield depleters, dont forget these.
And hopefully you do have ID's.

Part of fighting dirty is exploting those special weapons. Some are economically taxing though.

You're psychic? Why arent you using your psychic weapons then? they're some of the best in the game. having cruisers armed with psychic weapons can bring you a couple of victories.

Xaren Hypr

May 5th, 2003, 10:17 AM

Psychic, hmmmm...well, unless he's gone to using exclusively Master Comps, the Alleigence Subvertor would probably do wonders against his ships. And most probably if he's as new to this as you say, he probably hasn't....but then again, I don't know him so I could be wrong. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Grandpa Kim

May 5th, 2003, 06:33 PM

Does he have ships or bases with space yard components on them? If so, steal one of those. Then use the space yard to deconstruct and analyze on the spot! This works, but I don't know if this happens at the beginning of the turn before any combats or at the end so best move it to a vacant sector first.

Pooka

May 5th, 2003, 06:39 PM

Originally posted by Ragnarok:
Here is a tip I don't know if you thought of it yet.
When you capture his high tech ships with your intel projects, take those ships back home and analyze them. You will gain a level in ship construction for free basically this way. If you do this 2 or 3 times, you will have Dreads as well floating around.Yeah, that was the original plan, but I can't get through the warp-point. He's camping it with 40+ ships. (Mostly destroyers and BCs) I've been hitting his newest, biggest ships with intel and all that does is get them very dead, very quickly. I know he's starting to get frustrated by this and simulator gives me about 70% chance to win if he throws everything at me. (I have a truly insane number of sats on the warp point, plus my own fleet.)

I tried grabbing his shipyard ship to do deconstruct/analysis in the field but I can even run away he just hoses me before the ships get one square of moment.

Pooka

May 5th, 2003, 06:40 PM

Originally posted by Gwaihir:
Sounds like the only WPS in and out are guarded pretty heavily, so that probably won't work too well. Unless he can get one of the blockading ships, and newly acquired ships don't engage on the first turn.I'm grabbing his blockading ships, he's killing them before they can get movement.

Pooka

May 5th, 2003, 06:43 PM

Originally posted by Taera:
Im not an expert and have little experience in PBW but...

scanners are annoying and if he is the way you describe him he prolly has none.
Remember that Stealth armor gives you cloaking.
Dont send in a fleet - send in hunter ships that would pick on colonies and lone ships. Find his central production sites and plague them (not useful this time tho as it seems). Also find his mining colonies and rad-bomb them. If you need to take on a planet remember to bring in some planetary napalms, they're quite useful.

Vary your tactic - once try on with a lot of fighters and missile cruisers, then when he gets PDC go in with some direct-fire weapons.

For warp-point combat consider the Graviton Hellbore weapon. though many might jump on me here nothing compares with it in a single-shot.
Either that, or ripper beams.
SHield depleters, dont forget these.
And hopefully you do have ID's.

Part of fighting dirty is exploting those special weapons. Some are economically taxing though.

You're psychic? Why arent you using your psychic weapons then? they're some of the best in the game. having cruisers armed with psychic weapons can bring you a couple of victories.Okay, one of my friends is helping him build ships so he is using PDCs, but not enough of them. I throw fighters, CapMissles and about 30+ swift little DU5 frigates at him in the simulator and they do very well. Haven't tested the new dread designs in the field though. Now that he just blew up the BC I captured I have their designs too. (That's always a nice side effect, steal a ship, kill it, and get his latest in ship designs.)

Sensors he doesn't use, that much I'm certain of. Certainly not scanners. How exactly does cloaking/stealth armor work? This is a very confusing point to me. It's not very well explained. All it seems to do is make me 5% harder to hit. Who cares?

Pooka

May 5th, 2003, 06:44 PM

Originally posted by Xaren Hypr:
Psychic, hmmmm...well, unless he's gone to using exclusively Master Comps, the Alleigence Subvertor would probably do wonders against his ships. And most probably if he's as new to this as you say, he probably hasn't....but then again, I don't know him so I could be wrong. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Really? I've been reading these forums for a while and Alleigance converters seem to take a lot of flak for being useless guns. I suppose I could start trying them out and see how it goes. I've been racing up the intel path though and that takes a lot of RP. I've got stealth armor next on the queue and am looking for project ideas for next. Ripper beams sound easy to get. He does not use Master comps. Atleast not enough to worry me.

Pooka

May 5th, 2003, 06:48 PM

Originally posted by geoschmo:
Sounds like you've got some good suggestions already, but I wanted to point out one thing.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pooka:
What's more, he doesn't group his ships into fleets, he just leaves them in a big stack. He's camping the warp point, as am I, but I'm doing so with intent to build Psychic academies and such and build up a fleet of small, high-potency ships to work him over with.This is very unlikely. More likely he is using fleets, you just don't know it. You cannot see if another person is using fleets or not. From your perspective the other persons fleet just looks like a stack of ships. Even with allies you cannot see another players fleets, only the individual ships in the fleet.

Geoschmo<hr /></blockquote>Hmmm. Point. Is there any way to discern if they're in a fleet? Intel project of some kind? I doubt he's using fleets, I don't think he knows how to. If he /is/ it's because the guy helping him pointed it out. But the guy helping him doesn't know what he's doing with fleets either. (He always uses Optimal Range/Arrowhead)

Pooka

May 5th, 2003, 06:49 PM

Originally posted by Grandpa Kim:
Does he have ships or bases with space yard components on them? If so, steal one of those. Then use the space yard to deconstruct and analyze on the spot! This works, but I don't know if this happens at the beginning of the turn before any combats or at the end so best move it to a vacant sector first.I've tried moving a sector away, doesn't work. Before the ship can move it just gets gunned down.

oleg

May 5th, 2003, 07:27 PM

Useless AS ???? For God sake, refit your small ships with AS and get all his Dreads for free http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif Once he swith to MC, give virus to every your ship and replace AS with TK !!! If he is really newb, he is a toast.

Loser

May 5th, 2003, 07:42 PM

Originally posted by oleg:
Useless AS ???? For God sake, refit your small ships with AS and get all his Dreads for free http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif Once he swith to MC, give virus to every your ship and replace AS with TK !!! If he is really newb, he is a toast.Yeah, that isn't even dirty, that's just the way it is.

Allegiance Converters could turn this tide for you if he doesn't have Master Controls on all his ships. You have their designs, you're sure to know, now.

AS Frigates are mean. What a mess that will make.

And if he is all about the MC, then throw the virus at him.... crunchy on the outside, chewy on the inside.

BTW, a MC ship with busted MC is just a floating hulk, right? It cannot be captured or anything else cool that you can do to a floating hulk either... can it?

Ruatha

May 5th, 2003, 08:15 PM

I LOVE the AS.
If you have drones, make AS drones en masse!
Now you can move them back through a wormhole after theyve been used and pick them up again with a drone launch ship and reuse them.
Bus ususally I make ordinary ships with ordinary weapons and one AS. When you're up against some other psychic race and get lucky you can convert his entire fleet in an convert cascade!
(Capture a ship with a converter - that ship captures a ship with a converter....and so on, if you have better offensive/defensive values than the enemy!)

A MC hulk can be capturd with troops, repaired with a shipyard ship and put to use.

[ May 05, 2003, 19:16: Message edited by: Ruatha ]

Pooka

May 5th, 2003, 08:25 PM

First off, thanks again, all, for your advice and assistance. I'm just glad that he doesn't do his own research! =^.^=

As for AS... is the AS/Talisman combo as disgusting as it sounds?

And hmmm. ECM+Stealth+AS on a Frigate sounds properly evil and currently undefended against. Okay, after I get Intel 3 I'm racing up the psychic weapons tree. =)

geoschmo

May 5th, 2003, 08:44 PM

Originally posted by Ruatha:
Now you can move them back through a wormhole after theyve been used and pick them up again with a drone launch ship and reuse them.Drones can't be recovered once they are launched.

Loser

May 5th, 2003, 09:00 PM

Originally posted by Pooka:
Okay, after I get Intel 3 I'm racing up the psychic weapons tree. =)If you are a close to the wire as you seem, you might want to use that handy Reorder Projects and put Int3 on the back burner. You won't lose any progress, and can go right into Psychic Weapons, which will prove immediately useful.

Or not...

Grandpa Kim

May 5th, 2003, 09:39 PM

Originally posted by Pooka:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Grandpa Kim:
Does he have ships or bases with space yard components on them? If so, steal one of those. Then use the space yard to deconstruct and analyze on the spot! This works, but I don't know if this happens at the beginning of the turn before any combats or at the end so best move it to a vacant sector first.I've tried moving a sector away, doesn't work. Before the ship can move it just gets gunned down.<hr /></blockquote>Okay, try this. Don't bother trying to move, just give it the deconstruct and analyze order. If it works, you get all the tech on the ship, if not, you are no worse off but he's still down one ship.

In addition, no one has mentioned Combat sensors and ECM. Get them! Use them! If he doesn't have them, you can take out his dreads with a pea shooter. You will rarely miss, he will rarely hit.

Stealth (and scattering) armor give a defense bonus of 5, 10 or 15% depending on the level you have. Believe me, this adds up. To get the cloaking effect just click on the appropriate icon (a ship with a green ring around it). If he doesn't have sensors to see through this, you can waltz in as you please. Warning: all your ships in a sector must be cloaked to avoid combat. If even one is decloaked, all ships will be discovered for the purposes of combat. If he is just viewing from a distance (one sector or more away) he will only see the uncloaked ship.

Pooka

May 5th, 2003, 09:50 PM

Okay, try this. Don't bother trying to move, just give it the deconstruct and analyze order. If it works, you get all the tech on the ship, if not, you are no worse off but he's still down one ship.

In addition, no one has mentioned Combat sensors and ECM. Get them! Use them! If he doesn't have them, you can take out his dreads with a pea shooter. You will rarely miss, he will rarely hit.

Stealth (and scattering) armor give a defense bonus of 5, 10 or 15% depending on the level you have. Believe me, this adds up. To get the cloaking effect just click on the appropriate icon (a ship with a green ring around it). If he doesn't have sensors to see through this, you can waltz in as you please. Warning: all your ships in a sector must be cloaked to avoid combat. If even one is decloaked, all ships will be discovered for the purposes of combat. If he is just viewing from a distance (one sector or more away) he will only see the uncloaked ship.Hmmm. A button. that's why I've been having problems with stealth armor. Indeed, I will start using stealth armor a lot more now. Thank you. I think I'll go mine all his back-end warp points and send stealth troop ships to seize his undefended planets. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Is there any reason I could not do this? (Assuming he doesn't have weap-plats on 'em, of course.)

oleg

May 5th, 2003, 09:55 PM

Originally posted by Pooka:

As for AS... is the AS/Talisman combo as disgusting as it sounds?

And hmmm. ECM+Stealth+AS on a Frigate sounds properly evil and currently undefended against. Okay, after I get Intel 3 I'm racing up the psychic weapons tree. =)WHAT ?? You have RT as well !? And AS http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Just build ships with longest range direct fire weapon you have, put RT, set up strategies to max. range and send them for a joly ride ! You should not have a problem against a person who let you live so long as to use the full benefits of Psychic+Religious.

Just kill him wholesome for Aaron sake !

[ May 05, 2003, 20:57: Message edited by: oleg ]

Pooka

May 5th, 2003, 10:03 PM

Originally posted by oleg:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pooka:

As for AS... is the AS/Talisman combo as disgusting as it sounds?

And hmmm. ECM+Stealth+AS on a Frigate sounds properly evil and currently undefended against. Okay, after I get Intel 3 I'm racing up the psychic weapons tree. =)WHAT ?? You have RT as well !? And AS http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Just build ships with longest range direct fire weapon you have, put RT, set up strategies to max. range and send them for a joly ride ! You should not have a problem against a person who let you live so long as to use the full benefits of Psychic+Religious.

Just kill him wholesome for Aaron sake !<hr /></blockquote>*snerks* Yeah, Religious + Psychic (then gaining bonuses by sucking hits to radioactive/organics mining, etc.) is my trademark. I don't have RTs yet. In fact I don't even have ShrineIIs. But I can, and I was just considering that the AS seems to have a percentage-to-covert based on certain things. I just wondered if maybe the RT made it basically an auto-convert.

Grandpa Kim

May 5th, 2003, 10:10 PM

...send stealth troop ships to seize his undefended planets. Remember you must decloak to attack. You could plant them on top of the planet one turn, then decloak and attack the next. But why not use a reasonable sized fleet? Then if any defences are present, you can take them out. Also, fleet strategy "capture planet" and troop ship strategy "capture planet"!

I'm thinking... you should check out the the Newbie FAQ stickied to the top of the forum.

oleg

May 5th, 2003, 10:19 PM

Originally posted by Pooka:
*snerks* Yeah, Religious + Psychic (then gaining bonuses by sucking hits to radioactive/organics mining, etc.) is my trademark. I don't have RTs yet. In fact I don't even have ShrineIIs. But I can, and I was just considering that the AS seems to have a percentage-to-covert based on certain things. I just wondered if maybe the RT made it basically an auto-convert.No. RT does not give 100% chance to convert. It gives 100% to hit. Then the "damage" value of AS comes to an effect. Consider building ships with large/massive mounts. THAT will gurantee your supremacy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

BTW. use optimal firing range for AS+RT and max. range for "anyother weapon" +RT ships !!

Pooka

May 5th, 2003, 10:20 PM

Remember you must decloak to attack. You could plant them on top of the planet one turn, then decloak and attack the next. But why not use a reasonable sized fleet? Then if any defences are present, you can take them out. Also, fleet strategy "capture planet" and troop ship strategy "capture planet"!

I'm thinking... you should check out the the Newbie FAQ stickied to the top of the forum.First thing I did, actually. The sections on cloaking and stealth armor didn't make sense after reading the confusing text of components under SEIV. I am grateful to have the means by which I can use stealth armor to cloak cleared up now.

Pooka

May 5th, 2003, 10:29 PM

Oh! In case this gets out or someone else gives him stealth tech in some sort of 'balance of power' play... which sensors defeat cloaking/stealth armor? Is it combat sensors? Or something else?

oleg

May 5th, 2003, 10:36 PM

Originally posted by Pooka:
Oh! In case this gets out or someone else gives him stealth tech in some sort of 'balance of power' play... which sensors defeat cloaking/stealth armor? Is it combat sensors? Or something else?You are psychic, AFAIK (but if you ARE psychic, I am not sure of anything .). Anyway. You have Psychic receptors. Use them and no stealth can protect infidels !

[ May 05, 2003, 21:37: Message edited by: oleg ]

Pooka

May 5th, 2003, 10:37 PM

Originally posted by oleg:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pooka:
Oh! In case this gets out or someone else gives him stealth tech in some sort of 'balance of power' play... which sensors defeat cloaking/stealth armor? Is it combat sensors? Or something else?You are psychic, AFAIK (but if you ARE psychic, I am not sure of anything .). Anyway. You have Psychic receptors. Use them and no stealth can protect infidels !<hr /></blockquote>Okay. And what should I look for on his ship designs to know that stealth alone will not protect my fleets?

Aloofi

May 5th, 2003, 10:44 PM

If you are playing unmodded use fighters. I've never played PBW, but unmodded fighters are really, really mean.
Six carriers with a full complement of fighters should send his fleet to the bottom of the galactic sea.
Don't forget to include in your fleet enough minesweepers to clear the way ahead of you.

Also, don't waste more money in satellites, fighters are more cost efficient for warp point defense. Research fighters all the way up and cloaking, so you get some stealth carriers into his territory.

Still, sooner or later he is going to get his main fleet together and drop it on you. When that happens make sure you don't let your ships be taken one by one. Park your fleet on the most valuable planet on the system the battle happens so you can bring your weapons platform to bear, add some mines on top of your fleet if possible, transport all weapons platform, troops and fighters avaliable on the system to this planet, and don't lose your patience when he glass the other colonies. If he is a newbie he will fall for it. He will not dare to leave your fleet behind unblooded.

Pooka

May 5th, 2003, 10:55 PM

Originally posted by Aloofi:
If you are playing unmodded use fighters. I've never played PBW, but unmodded fighters are really, really mean.
Six carriers with a full complement of fighters should send his fleet to the bottom of the galactic sea.
Don't forget to include in your fleet enough minesweepers to clear the way ahead of you.

Also, don't waste more money in satellites, fighters are more cost efficient for warp point defense. Research fighters all the way up and cloaking, so you get some stealth carriers into his territory.

Still, sooner or later he is going to get his main fleet together and drop it on you. When that happens make sure you don't let your ships be taken one by one. Park your fleet on the most valuable planet on the system the battle happens so you can bring your weapons platform to bear, add some mines on top of your fleet if possible, transport all weapons platform, troops and fighters avaliable on the system to this planet, and don't lose your patience when he glass the other colonies. If he is a newbie he will fall for it. He will not dare to leave your fleet behind unblooded.His fleet is allready rallied. It's parked on the other side of the warp point. My fleet, similarly, is rallied on the other side. It's a WWI standoff. We stare at each other across the trenches. I've found, however, that sats make /WONDERFUL/ WP defense with twinlink Heavy DU5s and decent planet defense with CSMs.

I agree though, fighters scare me. A mix of small rocket-equipped fighters sent to hunt bigger ships and a pack or two of SDU3s sent to hunt enemy fighters and smaller ships. Damn does that make a lot of dead metal in the simulator.

Sats don't need supply though, which is a very nice bonus in my book. Mines too. I find that combined arms is the way to go.

After I get stealth and AS I'll go for bigger fighters.

Aloofi

May 5th, 2003, 11:03 PM

Build only "DUC 3" fighters. Those rockets can only fire once per battle.

Pooka

May 5th, 2003, 11:23 PM

Originally posted by Aloofi:
Build only "DUC 3" fighters. Those rockets can only fire once per battle.It's true, but when 15 fighters can walk up to a Battleship and say, "You, with the big guns and stupid amount of armor. Yeah, you. You're dead."

It really demoralizes the other guy. That's why I mix it up.

Dralasite

May 6th, 2003, 12:19 AM

If you can pull it off and take out his WP fleet, it would be nice to have troops and transports ready to capture some choice worlds from his empire. Of course, if your economy is already strained, you might have to settle for glassing and recolonizing the worlds.

geoschmo

May 6th, 2003, 01:01 AM

Sounds like you've got some good suggestions already, but I wanted to point out one thing.

Originally posted by Pooka:
What's more, he doesn't group his ships into fleets, he just leaves them in a big stack. He's camping the warp point, as am I, but I'm doing so with intent to build Psychic academies and such and build up a fleet of small, high-potency ships to work him over with.This is very unlikely. More likely he is using fleets, you just don't know it. You cannot see if another person is using fleets or not. From your perspective the other persons fleet just looks like a stack of ships. Even with allies you cannot see another players fleets, only the individual ships in the fleet.

Geoschmo

Phoenix-D

May 6th, 2003, 01:08 AM

"Build only "DUC 3" fighters. Those rockets can only fire once per battle."

The greater damage over time of the DUC3s is canceled out by the way fighters die- in droves. Especially if the enemy is using PD, you may only GET one shot.

EDIT
Rocket pods III: 100 damage, 6 kT
DUC 3: 15 damage, 3 kt

30 damage vs 100 per shot..the DUC fighters have to fire for four rounds before they overcome the instant kill advantage of the fighters.

100 fighters, the enemy can kill..lets say 10 per turn, constant.
rocket pods:
turn 1, 10000 damage
turn 2-30: run away

DUCs:
turn 1, 3000 damage
turn 2, 2700 damage
turn 3, 2400 damage
turn 4, 2100 damage
turn 5, 1800 damage
turn 6, 1500 damage
turn 7, 1200 damage
turn 8, 900 damage
turn 9, 600 damage
turn 10,300 damage
turn 11, 0

total:
10000 rocket pod
16500 DUC3

so you gain 6500 damage..and loose all your fighters. The rocket pods would probably loose only a few fighters, since they run away.

[ May 06, 2003, 00:14: Message edited by: Phoenix-D ]

Ed Kolis

May 6th, 2003, 01:38 AM

Originally posted by Pooka:
Okay. And what should I look for on his ship designs to know that stealth alone will not protect my fleets?Well, there are 5 kinds of stealth-penetrating sensors: Hyper Optics (Advanced Military Science 4-6), Tachyon Sensors (Sensors 4-6), Gravitic Sensors (Gravitational Technology 1-3), Psychic Receptors (Psychic Technology 1-3) and Temporal Sensors (Temporal Technology 1-3). The Last two are available only to those with the appropriate racial trait. In the unmodded game they all work the same, you just have to keep track of the levels - if you have Cloaking Device II, you can be seen by a Hyper-Optics II or III, Tachyon Sensors II or III, etc.

Hey, you know, I just had this thought, wouldn't it be funny if just at this moment we were also helping Pooka's opponent in some other thread? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Pooka

May 6th, 2003, 01:56 AM

Originally posted by Ed Kolis:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pooka:
Okay. And what should I look for on his ship designs to know that stealth alone will not protect my fleets?Well, there are 5 kinds of stealth-penetrating sensors: Hyper Optics (Advanced Military Science 4-6), Tachyon Sensors (Sensors 4-6), Gravitic Sensors (Gravitational Technology 1-3), Psychic Receptors (Psychic Technology 1-3) and Temporal Sensors (Temporal Technology 1-3). The Last two are available only to those with the appropriate racial trait. In the unmodded game they all work the same, you just have to keep track of the levels - if you have Cloaking Device II, you can be seen by a Hyper-Optics II or III, Tachyon Sensors II or III, etc.

Hey, you know, I just had this thought, wouldn't it be funny if just at this moment we were also helping Pooka's opponent in some other thread? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif <hr /></blockquote>What level stops Stealth Armor's cloak ability? (I'm assuming one.)

Oh, and I doubt he's in another thread. I doubt he even knows this forum exists, and if it did, I doubt he'd know how to post. =^.^=

Pocus

May 6th, 2003, 08:33 AM

This discussion about cloaking interest me enormously http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Som can we assume that stealth armor is level 1 cloaking, whereas the 3 cloaking devices range from 1 to 3 ?

And the 5 kinds of sensor, does they have an uncloaking value of 1 to 3 ?

Xaren Hypr

May 6th, 2003, 08:41 AM

Originally posted by Pocus:
This discussion about cloaking interest me enormously http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Som can we assume that stealth armor is level 1 cloaking, whereas the 3 cloaking devices range from 1 to 3 ?

And the 5 kinds of sensor, does they have an uncloaking value of 1 to 3 ?The sensors have an "uncloaking" value of 2 to 4, or by the text of the comps:

"Allows [Cloak/Scanning type] scanning at level 2 (or 3 or 4)." for the three levels of sensors. IIRC, you need a higher level of scanning than the level of cloaking.

Ruatha

May 6th, 2003, 09:32 AM

Originally posted by geoschmo:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Ruatha:
Now you can move them back through a wormhole after theyve been used and pick them up again with a drone launch ship and reuse them.Drones can't be recovered once they are launched.<hr /></blockquote>Thanx, thought that it could but have never needed to, guess I'd better read the FAQ!

Any sensor or stealth penetrating shyper optics/receptors penetrates the cloak of stealth armor.
To hide from the lower levels of sensors you need cloak technology.
But as long as he has no kind of sensors/receptros you're safe from discovery.

[ May 06, 2003, 08:39: Message edited by: Ruatha ]

Pocus

May 6th, 2003, 10:44 AM

as mines are cloaked at level 5, does someone tried to modify the sensors values to check if they could be detected theorically? I'm unsure though that a MOD enabling that would be a good thing.

May 6th, 2003, 10:48 AM

Originally posted by Pocus:
as mines are cloaked at level 5, does someone tried to modify the sensors values to check if they could be detected theorically? I'm unsure though that a MOD enabling that would be a good thing.What I did is to reduce the gravitic cloak level of small (=3) and medium (=4) mines. That gives you a reason to use large mines, which is pretty much useless in the unmodded game. And it gives you a reson to research gravitic sensors too and not only the hyperoptics.

Pocus

May 6th, 2003, 11:40 AM

nice idea about the large mines. You maintain which mod Q ?

dogscoff

May 6th, 2003, 12:51 PM

Something no-one has mentioned in this thread so far...

while sending in cloaked ships are a great idea, you'll have to watch out for mines. Even cloaked you will still be vulnerable. I'd recommend capturing a few enemy ships using intel and using them as minesweepers before sneding any cloaked ships into his territory.

Then slip a few planetary assault ships (plague/ troops/ napalm/ your choice) past his frontline to wreak havoc in his core systems. Being a newb he'll probably panic and divert ships from his WP defence to to counter the threat, then you can hit the warp point with a stack of AS frigates. Have a defence fleet and/or unit launchers waiting to secure the newly-exposed system(s).

Also, when the AS fleet captures loads of big ships, you'll have to be careful that their maintenence doesn't cripple you. Have a spaceyard ship handy to scrap any that you can't afford to keep. Make use of the resource theft intel project if you have it, too, that will help.

Pooka

May 6th, 2003, 03:53 PM

Originally posted by dogscoff:
Something no-one has mentioned in this thread so far...

while sending in cloaked ships are a great idea, you'll have to watch out for mines. Even cloaked you will still be vulnerable. I'd recommend capturing a few enemy ships using intel and using them as minesweepers before sneding any cloaked ships into his territory.

Then slip a few planetary assault ships (plague/ troops/ napalm/ your choice) past his frontline to wreak havoc in his core systems. Being a newb he'll probably panic and divert ships from his WP defence to to counter the threat, then you can hit the warp point with a stack of AS frigates. Have a defence fleet and/or unit launchers waiting to secure the newly-exposed system(s).

Also, when the AS fleet captures loads of big ships, you'll have to be careful that their maintenence doesn't cripple you. Have a spaceyard ship handy to scrap any that you can't afford to keep. Make use of the resource theft intel project if you have it, too, that will help.The mines worry me. This brings me to my next question. I just captured a battlecruise I expected to be armed. It was a mine layer. How do I stop mines? Will simply building mine sweeping ships suffice? Or will I have to move to the sector, then activate the mine sweepers? Should they be in a seperate fleet? Can mine sweepers be used while under cloak? (I.E. Can I quietly defuse his minefield right under his fleet's nose?)

he's camping the minefield, which is what worries me. Is it the minefields that destroy the captured ships before I can run with them?

Xaren Hypr

May 6th, 2003, 04:01 PM

If you can figure out which world have his Resupply Depots, hit those. IIRC, levels 6 to 8 of Planetary Weapons give you the two flavors of Smart Bombs:

1) Smart Bomb (RD) I-III: no resupply depots means that those of his ships w/o Quantum Reactors or Solar Collectors will eventually be dead in space, and

2) Smart Bomb (SP) I-III: no space ports means a big hit on his empire income, and those aren't normally very quick to rebuild http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif .

Just a couple things that have worked against the TDM AIs that I usually play with.

Pooka

May 6th, 2003, 04:06 PM

Originally posted by Loser:
It looks like this is going to be a thread to remember. The 'big secret' dirty fighting tricks may not be coming out, but a lot of 'lesser' tricks sure are.

If you have the time, and you are not focusing on destroying that WP fleet of his, here is something to try.
I currently lack the ability to press the offense though ghetto-cloaking a shipyard ship and running it into the storm is a /very/ appealing option. I'll steal his star charts tonight. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

First establish, by scouting trips, intel, or whatever, if any system of his has a storm that disables sensors (not combat sensors). Then send in a construction ship and build a construction base in that sector or system. After you build the base, scrap or mothball the ship immediately so that it consumes no more resources.

What level of sensors will a sensor-blocking storm prevent him from scanning? Does it stack with stealth armor? (I.E. Can I make a stealthed drydock?)

If this ghetto-cloaked construction base is in the same system as some of your enemies' worlds (a one-sector storm, as opposed to a system-wide storm), build a cargo-&-fighter-bay base and fill it with fighters and troops. Build these fighters for planetary attack. Build minor little troop transports and go start taking his most undefended planets, attacking with the fighters and dropping the troops. He will probably be unable, or at least find it difficult, to retake the planets and may glass them. This is not a loss for you, it is an intentional strategy of demoralization. If he does glass his own world, point this out to your role-playing friends, and point it out before you start using plagues.

This plan, while very complex and requiring a lot of finesse... appeals to me on levels I cannot express. I doubt he'd even think to check in the storm.
If the base is in a system-wide storm, or if you run out of targets in the system it is in, build harassment ships or fleets and go after similarly soft targets. Your main goal here is simply to harass. This will cause him to spend research time on sensor rather than weapons, and then it will pull warships away from his fronts.

Alternately, with domestic or imported harriers, you can attack targets of strategic value. If you can figure out which world have his Resupply Depots, hit those. This will severely limit the mobility of his troops. Mine the warp points within his sphere of control. Glass big worlds with high pop. Blockade his homeworld, glass it, or plague the damn thing.
The problem with resupply depots is that everyone has Stellar Harnessing 3 by now. Hell, I don't even build resupply depots anymore, I just have dedicated supply ships in all my fleets. I can handle constant fighting on the run for about .7 years before supplies force me to stop moving.

On plagues... if you need to wax this guy to survive, what does it matter what other players think. If you die because you don't plague him, or die because you plague him, wax him, and the others pound you, what difference does it make. Just make sure you are ready to move decisively after your plague attack: take his worlds, his resources, his power, and be ready to faces his new friends with their righteous anger.

One more thing, if you can get an AS harrier behind his lines, use it on non-combat ships as well as warships. Stealing the guys population transport could be lots of fun, especially if he blats it out of the sky when he can't get it back (see righteous role players).[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I've been trying to think up a proper smear campain to launch on this guy. I run an "In-Character" newsletter with my own 'fair and balanced' journalism. So far they're biting nice and hard. I'll see if I can't make this work. Really, the minefields will be the problem point as getting a buildership past his fleet/minefield is the problem.

Once I get a single ship through... it's party time.

Loser

May 6th, 2003, 04:24 PM

Originally posted by Pooka:
What level of sensors will a sensor-blocking storm prevent him from scanning? Does it stack with stealth armor? (I.E. Can I make a stealthed drydock?)They don't stack: they do not add to eachother. I believe each storm will say what level of scanner is blocks.

But a stealthed construction base (stealthed by the storm, not armor) is the plan.

I believe that Storms offer bettwe cloaking than Stealth Armor. Originally posted by Pooka:
This plan, while very complex and requiring a lot of finesse... appeals to me on levels I cannot express. I doubt he'd even think to check in the storm.If his options are set to animate ship movement, he may see your ships emerging from the storm. Originally posted by Pooka:
The mines worry me. This brings me to my next question. I just captured a battlecruise I expected to be armed. It was a mine layer. How do I stop mines? Will simply building mine sweeping ships suffice? Or will I have to move to the sector, then activate the mine sweepers? Should they be in a seperate fleet? Can mine sweepers be used while under cloak? (I.E. Can I quietly defuse his minefield right under his fleet's nose?)

he's camping the minefield, which is what worries me. Is it the minefields that destroy the captured ships before I can run with them? You should be able to check your reports and see exactly what was killing those ships.

A mine sweeper sweeps for mines when it moves into a sector. I do not know if it will uncloak as it does this.

If you ever steal a mine laying ship of his, imediately unload the mines. That would be nasty, and he would start making mine sweepers, which you could also steal.

You don't stop mines, you sweep them. Originally posted by Xaren Hypr :
1) Smart Bomb (RD) I-III: no resupply depots means that those of his ships w/o Quantum Reactors or Solar Collectors will eventually be dead in space, andThat is exactly what I was talking about. Sorry I did not communicate that. Originally posted by Pooka:
Yeah, I've been trying to think up a proper smear campain to launch on this guy. I run an "In-Character" newsletter with my own 'fair and balanced' journalism. So far they're biting nice and hard. I'll see if I can't make this work. Really, the minefields will be the problem point as getting a buildership past his fleet/minefield is the problem.

Once I get a single ship through... it's party time. That sounds great.... War needs to be faught on that level as well.

Getting past the fleet takes Stealth Armor. Getting past the minefield takes a few Mine Sweeper Dreads that you shove through with or without cloaking. If you shove them through with your cloakesd ships, will the enemy see all of them, fight all of them, or just the uncloaked Mine Sweepers?

Pooka

May 6th, 2003, 04:37 PM

<snippage to save space, this is a reply to Loser>

Okay... so I can just shove the sweepers through eh? Hmm. And yeah, I was going to try and dump the mines on another warp point, but the ship never made it out of the sector. The reports say a battle happened, and his ships took no damage, but I got worked. I'm assuming that's because we're not using Gold so the attacker was going first. (Otherwise I would have gotten a shot off with its single MesonII.

Still, just dumping the mines sounds appealing too. I'll start doing that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I guess I'll try to shove some cloaked minesweeping destroyers through. I'm only up cruisers, myself. Still, though. A small fleet of minesweeping destroyers followed, the next turn, by my cloaked shipyard ship, etc seems to be the way to go. Hmm. I'll need to get BCs to do cloaked buildership.

Ruatha

May 6th, 2003, 05:02 PM

Sorry, Cloaked minesweepers don't sweep, they eliminate the mines by hitting them at full speed. Enough ships clears the mineflied but the ships are destroyed, not the ship crews intention I guess. Better decloak first!

from FAQ:
5.9.9 Cloaked ships cannot sweep mines. (DavidG). [Editor�s note: I can confirm that problem with unknown minefields. Rumor has it (and there are references that hint at it in history.txt) that a cloaked minesweeper will uncloak to sweep a KNOWN minefield. I still haven't tested this one yet. May or may not work the same way. Has anyone tested a cloaked minesweeper on a known minefield?]

[ May 06, 2003, 16:05: Message edited by: Ruatha ]

Pooka

May 6th, 2003, 05:36 PM

Originally posted by Ruatha:
Sorry, Cloaked minesweepers don't sweep, they eliminate the mines by hitting them at full speed. Enough ships clears the mineflied but the ships are destroyed, not the ship crews intention I guess. Better decloak first!
Hmmm.....
How many mines does an escort suck up when running through? How many does a fighter suck up?

*ponders evil, evil designs*

Will mines force cloaked ships to decloak? The big problem with sending minesweepers through is that it'd require me to fight off his fleet of 40+ ships which is /also/ parked there.

Loser

May 6th, 2003, 05:39 PM

Originally posted by Pooka:
Will mines force cloaked ships to decloak? The big problem with sending minesweepers through is that it'd require me to fight off his fleet of 40+ ships which is /also/ parked there.Don't fight off his ships, just write off yours.

[ May 06, 2003, 16:39: Message edited by: Loser ]

Pooka

May 6th, 2003, 05:48 PM

Originally posted by Loser:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pooka:
Will mines force cloaked ships to decloak? The big problem with sending minesweepers through is that it'd require me to fight off his fleet of 40+ ships which is /also/ parked there.Don't fight off his ships, just write off yours.<hr /></blockquote>So minesweeping happens before the battle, then? That's interesting. Though I suppose the empire would be stupid to follow us into their own minefield. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Suicide Junkie

May 6th, 2003, 06:08 PM

I'm assuming that's because we're not using Gold so the attacker was going first. (Otherwise I would have gotten a shot off with its single MesonII.A single meson bLaster, eh?
Even if you did fire first, you probably didn't get through his shields, (or missed) and the damage percentage only shows hull damage (shields completely regenerate after battle anyways)

wanker

May 6th, 2003, 06:46 PM

Originally posted by Loser:
Don't fight off his ships, just write off yours.[/QB]If you have the space mount a colbalt warhead or two on the mine sweepers. Set their orders to "Ram". They will still die, but make it a gloryious death.

It may freak him out enough to set his fleet orders to maximum range (assuming that he is using optimal).

Loser

May 6th, 2003, 06:52 PM

Originally posted by wanker:
If you have the space mount a colbalt warhead or two on the mine sweepers. Set their orders to "Ram". Oooo....

Yeah, that's nice.

It's always a good idea to have warhead researched to max.

Hotfoot

May 6th, 2003, 07:05 PM

Originally posted by Pooka:
Hmmm.....
How many mines does an escort suck up when running through? How many does a fighter suck up?

*ponders evil, evil designs*Not enough to really be useful, I think. You're better off using dedicated minesweeper ships.

Will mines force cloaked ships to decloak? The big problem with sending minesweepers through is that it'd require me to fight off his fleet of 40+ ships which is /also/ parked there.Cloaked ships will take full damage from mines, and cloaked minesweepers do not sweep mines. Mines ignore shields and do damage directly to the ship, starting with any armor they might have and then continuing until the ship is dead. Your best bet would probably be to make suicidal minesweepers (with tactics of "ram" and cobalt warheads as mentioned below) go through the WP uncloaked, but seperate from your main warfleet, at least if you want to avoid a straight-out fight. The minesweepers will die, which is regrettable, but if you're lucky, you'll have swept the mines away and cleared a path for your primary cloaked harassment fleet, as well as hopefully doing some damage to his fleet with your ramming minesweepers (don't count on that being very significant though, it would just be a nice bonus, if anything). Once your fleet has slipped through, you can start doing some serious damage. With any luck, you can get him to split his forces, maybe even making him think that you came around another way to attack. The more you make him spread out, the better it will be for you when you finally do invade in force.

Also, since your group seems to be heavy into the RP aspect, try to gain more allies, and maybe even slowly work at disrupting his alliances with others.

Pooka

May 6th, 2003, 07:15 PM

Originally posted by Hotfoot:

Also, since your group seems to be heavy into the RP aspect, try to gain more allies, and maybe even slowly work at disrupting his alliances with others.I've been shaking hands and kissing babies from the get-go. The problem is there's 4 of us in this game, who know the game very well, and one other that knows politics very well. The 4 people who don't know the game so well (and one who does but has low self-esteem) have allied behind the politically savvy fellow to 'stop the veterans from killing us all.'

This union of underdogs occupies most of the board at this point and is making life very difficult. I have, (though simulator room screenings and other such techniques.) eroded a lot of the support from this one guy by pointing out certain facts about how the battles will be going when I finally get in his face.

I've tried everything I can think of, including offering to just fork over minerals, etc to recoup their losses from his trade agreement. They won't budge. They keep giving him weapons tech (which I then steal) and in general are making nuisances of themselves.

I may kill one or two of them as an example if they continue like this. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Pooka

May 6th, 2003, 09:35 PM

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I'm assuming that's because we're not using Gold so the attacker was going first. (Otherwise I would have gotten a shot off with its single MesonII.A single meson bLaster, eh?
Even if you did fire first, you probably didn't get through his shields, (or missed) and the damage percentage only shows hull damage (shields completely regenerate after battle anyways)<hr /></blockquote>Shields? You presume much, good sir. My poorly educated foe doesn't make use of shields. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Aloofi

May 6th, 2003, 10:02 PM

I don't know, but I never got myself to order warships into ramming. I guess I'm a benevolent ruler that doesn't have the heart to sacrifice navy personel for the greater good. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
For the "Kamikaze Minesweeper" I always use expensive Master Computers, thus crippling my economy.
At least in Proportions we get the cheaper Computer Pilot...... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

atari_eric

May 6th, 2003, 10:08 PM

Originally posted by Pooka:
I may kill one or two of them as an example if they continue like this. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif NOW you're thinking like a Warlord!

Mind you, you will pretty much have to throw any political edge or maneuvres out the window if you go this route, but it looks as if politics is not being helpful enough anyhow...

Besides, if they're helping your enemy, they're hurting you...

capnq

May 6th, 2003, 11:16 PM

I suppose the empire would be stupid to follow us into their own minefield. Mines are "smart" enough to only attack enemy ships.

klausD

May 7th, 2003, 01:13 AM

a possibility to conduct some terror on him could be:

-research cloaking or stealth armor
-equip a minelayer with such a device
-sneak past his warp-pointlines in cloaked modus
-check his reeinforcement routes - the pathes he travels with his new produced ships from his space yards to his mainfleet
-mine them with the necessary amount of mines per sector

-boom ...the enemy battlecruiser sinks...

-go back and refill your minelayers
-repeat

the problem is that if he is clever he could send forward minesweepers to clear the reeinforcement path. But this costs him resources and time.

alles gute und viel Gl�ck
KlausD

Loser

May 7th, 2003, 01:42 AM

It looks like this is going to be a thread to remember. The 'big secret' dirty fighting tricks may not be coming out, but a lot of 'lesser' tricks sure are.

If you have the time, and you are not focusing on destroying that WP fleet of his, here is something to try.

First establish, by scouting trips, intel, or whatever, if any system of his has a storm that disables sensors (not combat sensors). Then send in a construction ship and build a construction base in that sector or system. After you build the base, scrap or mothball the ship immediately so that it consumes no more resources.

If this ghetto-cloaked construction base is in the same system as some of your enemies' worlds (a one-sector storm, as opposed to a system-wide storm), build a cargo-&-fighter-bay base and fill it with fighters and troops. Build these fighters for planetary attack. Build minor little troop transports and go start taking his most undefended planets, attacking with the fighters and dropping the troops. He will probably be unable, or at least find it difficult, to retake the planets and may glass them. This is not a loss for you, it is an intentional strategy of demoralization. If he does glass his own world, point this out to your role-playing friends, and point it out before you start using plagues.

If the base is in a system-wide storm, or if you run out of targets in the system it is in, build harassment ships or fleets and go after similarly soft targets. Your main goal here is simply to harass. This will cause him to spend research time on sensor rather than weapons, and then it will pull warships away from his fronts.

Alternately, with domestic or imported harriers, you can attack targets of strategic value. If you can figure out which world have his Resupply Depots, hit those. This will severely limit the mobility of his troops. Mine the warp points within his sphere of control. Glass big worlds with high pop. Blockade his homeworld, glass it, or plague the damn thing.

On plagues... if you need to wax this guy to survive, what does it matter what other players think. If you die because you don't plague him, or die because you plague him, wax him, and the others pound you, what difference does it make. Just make sure you are ready to move decisively after your plague attack: take his worlds, his resources, his power, and be ready to faces his new friends with their righteous anger.

One more thing, if you can get an AS harrier behind his lines, use it on non-combat ships as well as warships. Stealing the guys population transport could be lots of fun, especially if he blats it out of the sky when he can't get it back (see righteous role players).

PvK

May 7th, 2003, 03:21 AM

You can find out what happened in a combat by pressing the "Combat Replay" button while looking at the Log's summary of a battle.

PvK

Xaren Hypr

May 7th, 2003, 09:47 AM

Hmmm.....
How many mines does an escort suck up when running through? How many does a fighter suck up?

*ponders evil, evil designs*
Depends on how much damage the mines deal out and how much damage your ships can soak (i.e. a ship with a lot of heavy armor can take out more mines than, let's say, a lightly armored escort). Not too sure how mine damage applies to units though...

I have seen a couple of times where the damage seems to "stack" a bit (the total mine damage added up and the total fleet damage resistance added up, and whomever has more has stuff left in the end), and i'll lose a portion of my fleet to an unknown minefield, but i'll have a surviving ship that has less damage done to it than a normal mine would have...but then again, I simply might have miscalculated the ship's damage.

Just a thought, or two... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Wardad

May 7th, 2003, 07:04 PM

It is possible to use 1 fighter to expend 1 mine, provided you send 1 fighter at a time.
Just try that in PBW (simultaneous mode). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Pooka

May 7th, 2003, 07:06 PM

Originally posted by Wardad:
It is possible to use 1 fighter to expend 1 mine, provided you send 1 fighter at a time.
Just try that in PBW (simultaneous mode). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif If fighters are cheaper than mines I'll do it. =^.^=

Seriously though, I think a set of 10 destroyers with 5 MinesweeperIIs should be sufficient. The maximum minefield size is 100 mines, yes?

[ May 07, 2003, 18:15: Message edited by: Pooka ]

Wardad

May 7th, 2003, 08:35 PM

Yes the max is 100 mines.
Unless your playing an older Version and know the exploit http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Light Cruisers (LC) should be cheaper than destroyers.
You should research LCs because the Large Weapon Mount makes them more effective.

Loser

May 7th, 2003, 08:36 PM

Originally posted by Wardad:
It is possible to use 1 fighter to expend 1 mine, provided you send 1 fighter at a time.
Just try that in PBW (simultaneous mode). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif I believe the mines troubling our new friend are on the other side of a warp point, anyway. Fighters can't go through warp points, I don't believe.

Aloofi

May 7th, 2003, 08:47 PM

Fighters can warp. You just need to select the fighter group (make sure it have less than 100 fighters) then press ctrl, alt and delete before giving the warp order.

.

.

[ May 07, 2003, 19:48: Message edited by: Aloofi ]

Loser

May 7th, 2003, 09:12 PM

Originally posted by Aloofi:
Fighters can warp. You just need to select the fighter group (make sure it have less than 100 fighters) then press ctrl, alt and delete before giving the warp order. Cute. I'm tempted to suggest that you've been reading http://www.bash.org

Aloofi

May 7th, 2003, 09:29 PM

Come on, but I did make you laugh, didn't I? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

And I was reading something else....... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
Do you like Tatu?

http://www.tatugirls.com/images/teamtatu.jpg

.
http://www.tatugirls.com/gallery/images/tatu05.jpg

[ May 07, 2003, 20:32: Message edited by: Aloofi ]

Gwaihir

May 7th, 2003, 09:36 PM

what, like this one? (bash.org, sorry didn't notice the new post, two Posts down)

#33677 +(-4)- [X]

Warman89: It's the best game evr.
Meamperson: Which one?
Warman89: Warcraft u idiot!
Meamperson: For the end world spell, press Ctrl+Alt+Delete twice.

Funny, i've tried so many times, it never seems to work . . . http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

edit:
There was a brief cosmic irony surge just now, seeing as 30 seconds after I read that, my roommate asks me to help him fix a little problem . . . he got one of those "find this system file, it is a virus, delete it and empty the recycle bin" things, and FOLLOWED IT. Fortunately the next email said it was a hoax, so he told me and I was able to replace it with the same file from my HD. actually it was just the Java debug manager, so it wasn't too terribly crucial, but still. Very ironic.

[ May 07, 2003, 20:42: Message edited by: Gwaihir ]

Erax

May 7th, 2003, 10:20 PM

Originally posted by Gwaihir:
There was a brief cosmic irony surge just now, seeing as 30 seconds after I read that, my roommate asks me to help him fix a little problem . . . he got one of those "find this system file, it is a virus, delete it and empty the recycle bin" things, and FOLLOWED IT.My boss did that too, then wrote the name of the file down and went around checking the other computers for it (they all had it, of course).

Telling him "That's a hoax" was one of those priceless moments.

Ed Kolis

May 8th, 2003, 12:43 AM

Hey Pooka... you know if your opponent and his allies get wind of the fact that you have an entire forum backing you up here...

Naah, your opponent already has all those allies IN GAME, who would HE be calling a baby http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Xaren Hypr

May 8th, 2003, 01:08 AM

Well there is nothing wrong with getting a little out-of-game advice when you are still relatively new....esp. when your opponent is getting massive amounts of in-game assistance http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif .

Just a thought...

Pooka

May 8th, 2003, 01:15 AM

Originally posted by Ed Kolis:
Hey Pooka... you know if your opponent and his allies get wind of the fact that you have an entire forum backing you up here...

Naah, your opponent already has all those allies IN GAME, who would HE be calling a baby http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif It's true, he could call me all sorts of things. But if I(3 systems, 12 planets) beat him (14systems, 30+ planets) and he makes a fuss about it my reply is simple:

"Just because I used every asset at my disposal to defeat you, and you foolishly didn't employ all of your assets, does NOT give you the right to whine like the little ***** I turned you into."

Or, to quote my friend:

"If you're not cheating, you're not trying hard enough."

Dingocat85

May 8th, 2003, 12:29 PM

Originally posted by Wardad:
Yes the max is 100 mines.
Unless your playing an older Version and know the exploit http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I wouldn't know, since I have SE4 non-Gold http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif , but is the exploit
1) laying 99 mines, then
2) laying as many mines as possible?

dogscoff

May 8th, 2003, 03:36 PM

The other mine exploit (well, more of a tactic than an exploit IMO) is for player one to lay a huge stack of mines at a location, then gift the minesweeper to player 2 who then lays a bunch more. Assuming player three is at war with both players 1 & 2, the mine-per-sector limit has been effectively doubled.

And of course you can do this as many times as you have allies...

Loser

May 9th, 2003, 01:06 AM

Originally posted by Aloofi:
Do you like Tatu?I knew this thread was missing something, and now I know what it was: off-topic little Russian kissing-girls.

They're little girls. They're Russian. They're peddling the appearance of juvenile promiscuity. They kiss each other. Their music is currently tolerable (but could easily be over played, even more easily than No Doubt). What's not to like?

jimbob

May 9th, 2003, 02:00 AM

Hey, you're playing a non-gold game right? so who is at the top of the turn ladder? 'Cause if it isn't a gold game, then Warp Point camping isn't going to do you any good:

If he is higher in the game turn order, then when he comes through the warp point, he will get first shot on you = you die (sorry, nice knowning you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

If you are higher on the game turn ladder, then when you go through the warp point you will get first shot.

Then the only advantage to letting him come to you is that he'll run into your mines. conversely the only thing holding you back from attacking him is that you'll need to build a bunch of minesweepers.

hope that clairifies things. I just think it would be a shame for you to build up and camp on your side of the warp point only to have him come through and get the first shot... better you sit back one space from the warp point, let him come through and then engage him in combat. Besides, if you back away you may be able to coax him into your minefield before he has sufficient minesweepers ready http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Ed Kolis

May 9th, 2003, 02:46 AM

Hey... you don't have warp openers do you?

I bet he'd NEVER expect that... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Of course they're fairly expensive to research and build, so if you don't already have a lot of research points it's probably not worth bothering with, but it's a thought...

Also remember that there can only be 1 warp point between 2 systems, so if you're in Utekra and he's across the warp point in Wertuy you can't open a warp from Utekra to Wertuy... but you could open a warp from one of your other systems to Wertuy, or open a warp from one of your systems to his unguarded inner systems (if you have warp openers of the appropriate range http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif )

Pooka

May 9th, 2003, 03:58 AM

Originally posted by Ed Kolis:
Hey... you don't have warp openers do you?

I bet he'd NEVER expect that... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Of course they're fairly expensive to research and build, so if you don't already have a lot of research points it's probably not worth bothering with, but it's a thought...

Also remember that there can only be 1 warp point between 2 systems, so if you're in Utekra and he's across the warp point in Wertuy you can't open a warp from Utekra to Wertuy... but you could open a warp from one of your other systems to Wertuy, or open a warp from one of your systems to his unguarded inner systems (if you have warp openers of the appropriate range http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif )I've got Stellar Manip 1. Pondering going to 2 but weapons tech seems more important just yet. I might be able to get SM3 from someone else though. It may be worth trying.

Pooka

May 9th, 2003, 08:34 AM

Originally posted by jimbob:
Hey, you're playing a non-gold game right? so who is at the top of the turn ladder? 'Cause if it isn't a gold game, then Warp Point camping isn't going to do you any good:

If he is higher in the game turn order, then when he comes through the warp point, he will get first shot on you = you die (sorry, nice knowning you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

If you are higher on the game turn ladder, then when you go through the warp point you will get first shot.

Then the only advantage to letting him come to you is that he'll run into your mines. conversely the only thing holding you back from attacking him is that you'll need to build a bunch of minesweepers.

hope that clairifies things. I just think it would be a shame for you to build up and camp on your side of the warp point only to have him come through and get the first shot... better you sit back one space from the warp point, let him come through and then engage him in combat. Besides, if you back away you may be able to coax him into your minefield before he has sufficient minesweepers ready http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I think I'm in front of him on the turn list. I'm above him on the list displayed when you login. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

tbontob

May 9th, 2003, 09:21 AM

Hmmmm.... In gold, it appears the aggressor appears to have a chance of shooting first. I just posted this in the thread "who shoots first?" a few days ago.

============================================

It gets wierder.

Did some testing.

I had the enemy sit on the other side of the WP.

My ships were faster 13 vs 12.

On the next turn, my ships shot first.

Tested this a number of times and my ships always shot first.

Messed around and added some 12 movement ships to the fleet.

They shot first.

Went back to 13 movement ships and they shot first.

I suspect the defendor normally shoots first when sitting on the WP, but a random element sometimes gives the aggressor the right to shoot first when they are faster.

==========================================

The test was done in simultaneous mode.

I am making the assumption that a faster fleet may give them the right of shooting first at times.

Maybe if I tried a large number of tests, I would have an example of a equal speed fleet or slower fleet coming through a WP would shoot first.

jimbob

May 9th, 2003, 04:46 PM

Ok, that's a relief. I hadn't read your position on the ladder in the description(s) you gave.

In that case, satelites should do you quite well, as should fighters. For the fighters you definitely want the heavy weapons, cause if you've got first shot at point blank range, you'll absolutely waste him Mwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahhahaahahhahahahahahahahahahaha
hahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahah ahaha
hahahahahahahah
hahahaha
(etc...)

Somebody else suggested it, but make sure you get those sensors up a few levels. It'll make a huge difference. Oh, and as to the discussion of the armors and cloaking; the 5% bonus to defence is not cummulative though. If you have one or twenty of the stealth armor on your ship, you'll still only get a 5% defence bonus (don't get me wrong, the 5% is definitely worth it though!). You'll want to put both the stealth (5%) and the other special armor (5%) on your ships. Just think - if he comes through the warp point you'll get first shot and destroy a chunk of his fleet, then he'll miss with ~10% of the shots he's got left.

[ May 09, 2003, 15:48: Message edited by: jimbob ]

Pooka

May 9th, 2003, 10:43 PM

Originally posted by jimbob:
Ok, that's a relief. I hadn't read your position on the ladder in the description(s) you gave.

In that case, satelites should do you quite well, as should fighters. For the fighters you definitely want the heavy weapons, cause if you've got first shot at point blank range, you'll absolutely waste him
Somebody else suggested it, but make sure you get those sensors up a few levels. It'll make a huge difference. Oh, and as to the discussion of the armors and cloaking; the 5% bonus to defence is not cummulative though. If you have one or twenty of the stealth armor on your ship, you'll still only get a 5% defence bonus (don't get me wrong, the 5% is definitely worth it though!). You'll want to put both the stealth (5%) and the other special armor (5%) on your ships. Just think - if he comes through the warp point you'll get first shot and destroy a chunk of his fleet, then he'll miss with ~10% of the shots he's got left.About emissive armor, does it really mean that fighters using SmallDU3s can't hurt my ship? (They do less than the prevented damage.)

Does that mean that his group of 242 small fighters won't be able to hurt ships with that armor? (evil ideas brewing here)

geoschmo

May 9th, 2003, 10:52 PM

Originally posted by Pooka:
About emissive armor, does it really mean that fighters using SmallDU3s can't hurt my ship? (They do less than the prevented damage.)

Does that mean that his group of 242 small fighters won't be able to hurt ships with that armor? (evil ideas brewing here)A single fighter would not be able to do any damage. However fighter stacks in SEIV add their damage together. So think of it as a ship with a big gun that does 242 times the damage of one single fighter. That will probably be enough to get past the emmisive armor. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Geoschmo

Pooka

May 10th, 2003, 04:48 AM

Originally posted by geoschmo:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pooka:
About emissive armor, does it really mean that fighters using SmallDU3s can't hurt my ship? (They do less than the prevented damage.)

Does that mean that his group of 242 small fighters won't be able to hurt ships with that armor? (evil ideas brewing here)A single fighter would not be able to do any damage. However fighter stacks in SEIV add their damage together. So think of it as a ship with a big gun that does 242 times the damage of one single fighter. That will probably be enough to get past the emmisive armor. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Geoschmo<hr /></blockquote>That makes Emissive armor seem utterly pointless considering it's size, resistance, and a damage threshold of /10/ to start. 10?! Is there a gun that does as little as 10?

Phoenix-D

May 10th, 2003, 05:07 AM

"That makes Emissive armor seem utterly pointless considering it's size, resistance, and a damage threshold of /10/ to start. 10?! Is there a gun that does as little as 10? "

No. But it -will- cut 10 points of damage off of every hit.

Ed Kolis

May 10th, 2003, 05:07 AM

A gun that does as little as 10... hmm, you're right! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Seriously though, in Gold it's somewhat better, since the emissive rating is actually subtracted from the damage if the damage is greater - so if you get hit by a 280 HP Heavy Mount Wave Motion Gun you only take 270 damage http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

jimbob

May 10th, 2003, 06:47 PM

But the emissive doesn't stack does it? Logically you should get more protection the more emissive armor you've got, but there needs to be an upper limit... which would be hard to introduce to the game.

Mmmmm, on second thought, maybe it would be good to have emissive armor effects stack, but then limit the number of this type of armor to (for example) 5 per ship. = subtract 50 off all incoming damage.

Pooka

May 10th, 2003, 11:33 PM

Originally posted by Ed Kolis:
A gun that does as little as 10... hmm, you're right! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Seriously though, in Gold it's somewhat better, since the emissive rating is actually subtracted from the damage if the damage is greater - so if you get hit by a 280 HP Heavy Mount Wave Motion Gun you only take 270 damage http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif Yet again, I blame the confusing wording on the component "ignores all damage of 10 or less." does not mean the same thing as "subtracts 10 from inbound damage."

Grrrr.

I like emissive armor now, though. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Dingocat85

May 13th, 2003, 07:08 AM

Originally posted by Pooka:
That makes Emissive armor seem utterly pointless considering it's size, resistance, and a damage threshold of /10/ to start. 10?! Is there a gun that does as little as 10?Just how many research points do you have? If you have enough, you really should consider upgrading your defenses.
For example:
Level 1 ECM (20%) +
Level 1 Scattering Armor (5%) +
Level 1 Stealth Armor (5%) +
Level 1 Emmisive Armor (10 or less) =
30% defense bonus,
-10 damage from all hits.

Au contraire:
Level 3 ECM (60%) +
Level 3 Scattering Armor (15%) +
Level 3 Stealth Armor (15%) +
Level 3 Emissive Armor (30 or less) =
90% defense bonus
-30 damage from all hits

In summa: Top-level ECM & Armor will give you an additional 60% defensive bonus, and subtract triple the damage http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

See that 90% defensive bonus? If you put Level Three Scattering, Stealth, and ECM on any ship that has a natural 10% or more defensive bonus, and assuming your enemy doesn't use Combat Sensors, Torpedos, Wave-Motion Guns, or Talismans, that ship will be ***Impossible*** to hit with direct Fire weapons http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif ...all you'd have to worry about is Missiles.

And if you think it couldn't get any better http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif , Upgrading all of that takes research in only two Tech Areas: Armor, and Combat Support.

Xaren Hypr

May 13th, 2003, 07:28 AM

...all you'd have to worry about is Missiles.
A couple of levels in Point Defense Cannons will make those moot as well... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

tbontob

May 13th, 2003, 12:02 PM

Pocus

May 13th, 2003, 03:02 PM

and then the talisman guy screw you completely http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Loser

May 13th, 2003, 03:06 PM

Originally posted by Pocus:
and then the talisman guy screw you completely http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Considering how much research is needed to get to talisman, you should have other edges on him by the time he comes out with shrine-ships.

Pooka

May 13th, 2003, 07:36 PM

Originally posted by Loser:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pocus:
and then the talisman guy screw you completely http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Considering how much research is needed to get to talisman, you should have other edges on him by the time he comes out with shrine-ships.<hr /></blockquote>The guy I'm facing is Deeply Religious... But I doubt he's got talisman yet. If he does, I'll just ignore the chance-to-hit stuff and go for bigger, well armoured ships.

If he doesn't, this sounds like a good route, especially since half this stuff is necessary if he does have talisman anyway.

I'm right now racing up the PSychic weapons paths to get AS ASAP.

Oh and, woot! 100+ replies! =)

Phoenix-D

May 13th, 2003, 11:15 PM

"Yet again, I blame the confusing wording on the component "ignores all damage of 10 or less." does not mean the same thing as "subtracts 10 from inbound damage.""

It didn't always work like that and it -does- ignore all damage of 10 or less, not subtract (else you'd be healing with <10 hits)

Dingocat85

May 13th, 2003, 11:46 PM

Originally posted by Dingocat85:
See that 90% defensive bonus? If you put Level Three Scattering, Stealth, and ECM on any ship that has a natural 10% or more defensive bonus, and assuming your enemy doesn't use Combat Sensors, Torpedos, Wave-Motion Guns, or Talismans, that ship will be ***Impossible*** to hit with direct Fire weapons http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif ...all you'd have to worry about is Missiles. Originally posted by Pooka:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Loser:
[qb]The guy I'm facing is Deeply Religious... I'm right now racing up the Psychic weapons paths to get AS ASAP.Religious? This guy probably has a War Shrine, which will drop the 100% defensive bonus down to 95%, maybe even 90% http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif ...Sure, having him miss 9/10 shots is good, but having him miss 99/100 shots is so much sweeter http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

So, the uber-defense ships (if you finally get around to making them) ought to get some training...your Psychic Ship training facilities (which IIRC, train all ships in the system) should do nicely.

By the way - what are your Culture, Traits, and Characteristics, and what are the Culture & Traits of "Hippo"?

PvK

May 14th, 2003, 06:25 AM

The discussion here about defensive bonuses seems a little misinformed. All offensive and defensive mods on both sides are added together to determine the final to-hit chance. The minimum 1% is then applied. By the time you can make a ship with a +90% defensive bonus, your enemy can typically come up with a +65% offensive bonus. The more the merrier of course, since they add and the values are quite high in the unmodded game, so it can and does get lopsided quite quickly.

PvK

Dingocat85

May 14th, 2003, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by PvK:
The discussion here about defensive bonuses seems a little misinformed. All offensive and defensive mods on both sides are added together to determine the final to-hit chance. The minimum 1% is then applied. By the time you can make a ship with a +90% defensive bonus, your enemy can typically come up with a +65% offensive bonus. The more the merrier of course, since they add and the values are quite high in the unmodded game, so it can and does get lopsided quite quickly.

PvKTrue, in most cases...but this newbie Pooka's fighting doesn't use shields, so I doubt they'd even use Combat Sensors http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Pooka

May 14th, 2003, 04:12 PM

Originally posted by Dingocat85:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by PvK:
The discussion here about defensive bonuses seems a little misinformed. All offensive and defensive mods on both sides are added together to determine the final to-hit chance. The minimum 1% is then applied. By the time you can make a ship with a +90% defensive bonus, your enemy can typically come up with a +65% offensive bonus. The more the merrier of course, since they add and the values are quite high in the unmodded game, so it can and does get lopsided quite quickly.

PvKTrue, in most cases...but this newbie Pooka's fighting doesn't use shields, so I doubt they'd even use Combat Sensors http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif <hr /></blockquote>he's got combat sensors I. Just found that out when I stole a dread with 'em and waxed two of his carriers.

Phoenix-D

May 14th, 2003, 07:41 PM

"but this newbie Pooka's fighting doesn't use shields,"

Watch it..that might not mean newbie. I don't install sheilds on ships until I get up to Phased III or so. Too vulnerable to PPBs otherwise.

Krsqk

May 17th, 2003, 08:16 AM

Well, any update on how the game's going? It would be nice to see if all our advice worked. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Wardad

May 17th, 2003, 05:52 PM

I found a new dirty trick....

Role play a race of dogs...
when your attacked,
call the enemy "Puppy Killers"

Ruatha

May 17th, 2003, 07:25 PM

Or don't shower for a month before fighting, that should be dirty enough!

Fyron

May 17th, 2003, 11:54 PM

Originally posted by Wardad:
I found a new dirty trick....

Role play a race of dogs...
when your attacked,
call the enemy "Puppy Killers"Bwhahahahahahah! Too bad it won't save your empire! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Espeically when you've killed more of your own puppies than we ever killed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ May 17, 2003, 22:55: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Wardad

May 18th, 2003, 10:49 PM

To Quote P.K. Fyron:

"It's not whether you win or lose that counts: it's how much pain you inflict along the way."

Fyron

May 19th, 2003, 02:04 AM

Trying to go down in flames in style, eh? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Pooka

May 19th, 2003, 07:13 PM

Originally posted by Krsqk:
Well, any update on how the game's going? It would be nice to see if all our advice worked. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Well, not to go into too much details, since I know atleast one of Hippo's roomates found this forum (he's trustworthy though, I doubt he's spilling anything.) But I'm still marching up the psychic weapons path, waiting to find Alleigance subverter.I've got the TK projector and make-you-shoot-slower-ray but no AS yet. The first wave of 10 sweeper ships is ready, but will they get to sweep for mines before they are destroyed utterly by the enemy's fighters? The cloaked shipyard BC is ready to go as soon as I'm sure there aren't any more mines. In fact, I have an entire cloaked strike fleet ready to slip through and start making havoc in his rear quarter.

Two of his "allies" are getting nervous now after I managed to com-mimic him into war with one of them. I then took advantage of the fact that he missed his turn to convince them that he's using missing his turns as an excuse to have the comp declare war for him. (That way he can always try to take it back later.) They ate that up, hook-line-and-sinker. The war didn't materialize but the damage to their confidence has been done, and they're talking to me a lot more now.

He's got something headed my way, it'll be arrived by mid next week. I don't know what it is, but 30+ dreads remain a possibility. I've got intel projects ready to roll, and am poised to consume as much of that fleet as I can before it hits my blockade. My fleet training centers have just about finished maxing out my ships/fleets to the best of their ability.

Things are progressing well, basically. I just neet to have the time to let these plans develop to fruition.

Loser

May 20th, 2003, 04:57 PM

Originally posted by Pooka:
Two of his "allies" are getting nervous now after I managed to com-mimic him into war with one of them. I then took advantage of the fact that he missed his turn to convince them that he's using missing his turns as an excuse to have the comp declare war for him. (That way he can always try to take it back later.) They ate that up, hook-line-and-sinker. The war didn't materialize but the damage to their confidence has been done, and they're talking to me a lot more now.Well. Well, it sounds like you have the 'dirty' part pretty well down...

Everything that deals with mines already spaced happens before anything else. When you send those sweepers though, they _will_ clear the mines (and get hit by them if there are any mines left) before they engage in combat with the enemy. Remember to set them to RAM (set the whole class to Ram) so they do some damage before they're slaughtered.

Then send your troublemakers through the very next turn.... Maybe you should only send on through, at first, just in case he has Sensor Satellites somewhere. It would be good to know before you send the whole fleet through.

Pooka

May 23rd, 2003, 06:34 PM

Everything that deals with mines already spaced happens before anything else. When you send those sweepers though, they _will_ clear the mines (and get hit by them if there are any mines left) before they engage in combat with the enemy. Remember to set them to RAM (set the whole class to Ram) so they do some damage before they're slaughtered.

Then send your troublemakers through the very next turn.... Maybe you should only send on through, at first, just in case he has Sensor Satellites somewhere. It would be good to know before you send the whole fleet through.Well, since this just cost me my fleet, it should be noted that sweepers get to sweep /after/ combat occurrs. I've been stealing his minesweepers and they just get shot by his fleet. Since every other ship I had ever claimed had only been attacked by a fleet, never a minefield, (infact I didn't even know what the 'struck a minefield' dialog looked like.) I figured he hadn't deployed his mines yet. (I found ship after ship with mine layers, but with it's full compliment of mines on board, etc. I figured he'd forgotten to deploy them.)

Lost my entire fleet to his minefield. Fortunately he's bored and likely done with the game now, but still, there needs to be a series of documents on how to use minesweepers, specifically on blockaded warp points. Otherwise it looks like it's just a matter of an invincible defense winning the game.

jimbob

May 23rd, 2003, 06:54 PM

Sorry your fleet was destroyed http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

I'm interested to know exactly what happened. Are you certain that the mine sweepers went in first? Movement of ships occurs by day... that is to say, if you have a sweeper fleet with a movement rate of 10, the fleet will move one sector on day 3, then one more on day 6, 9, etc. If the other fleet (say your battle fleet) has a faster movement rate, lets say of speed 15, then it will move one movement point every second day.

It may not have been apparent to you, but unfortunately this means that the battle fleet will warp through the warp point before the sweeper fleet = mine detonation!

Now, did your battle fleet have a higher movement rate than the sweeper fleet? Or maybe the battle fleet was closer to the warp point than the sweeper fleet? I'm pretty sure that the sweepers would have done their job before combat was enjoined if they had warped through ahead of the battle fleet... this is why I always put the sweepers in with the battle fleet... sorry I didn't tell you this before.

Lastly, regarding his miner having mines on board still. I'm willing to bet money to donuts that he had put out his maximum complement of mines already, and those onboard mines were surplus. Once you went through and swept the mine field, he would be ready to erect and instant minefield again. If he was smart, he was sending "deploy mines" orders every turn, so that if you came through and destroyed a few mines, he wouldn't have to wait a turn before deploying replacements!

[ May 23, 2003, 17:56: Message edited by: jimbob ]

Loser

May 23rd, 2003, 07:02 PM

Did you send in minesweepers or just send in your fleet because you didn't think there were any mines?

The mine sweepers you stole from him wouldn't sweep mines because they were already in the sector. Mine sweepers automatically sweep mines when they move into a sector, but if they are in a sector with mines in it, you have to use that little sweep button. Of course, you wouldn't get a chance to push this button when there are enemy ships in the same sector.

Ruatha

May 23rd, 2003, 07:14 PM

Use the ship movement replay button to see which ships went in in which order, then report back!.
Now, dismissed, carry out your orders Private Pooka.

Pooka

May 23rd, 2003, 07:21 PM

Originally posted by Loser:
Did you send in minesweepers or just send in your fleet because you didn't think there were any mines?

The mine sweepers you stole from him wouldn't sweep mines because they were already in the sector. Mine sweepers automatically sweep mines when they move into a sector, but if they are in a sector with mines in it, you have to use that little sweep button. Of course, you wouldn't get a chance to push this button when there are enemy ships in the same sector.This was the problem. I figured minesweepers swept mines. My sweeper fleet never even got deployed. I held them back because I figured, why send my minesweepers, when I can just use his?

The documentation, as I have said, is very poor on this subject. Regardless, I have a minefield of my own, plethora of fighters, and collection of starbases. I also didn't send my cloaking SY through, so I still have that. I'll set it to building some other stuff while I rebuild a fleet. Very frustrating lesson, though.

Loser

May 23rd, 2003, 07:29 PM

Don't just leave it there... send the sweeper fleet in to die and pop that SY throgh the turn after... or maybe with them.... but cloaked.

But if it's in the same fleet as them, even if it's cloaked, I think it still ends up in combat... I think...

Well, when you make that work, you build your Drone Factory in some obscuring Storm and start raining hell down on his unsuspecting population with your cloaked drone fleet. yeah

Doom, doom, doom, doom, doom....

Loser

May 23rd, 2003, 07:29 PM

[edit: double post, sorry]

[ May 23, 2003, 18:52: Message edited by: Loser ]

Pooka

May 23rd, 2003, 07:35 PM

Originally posted by Loser:
Don't just leave it there... send the sweeper fleet in to die and pop that SY throgh the turn after... or maybe with them.... but cloaked.

But if it's in the same fleet as them, even if it's cloaked, I think it still ends up in combat... I think...

Well, when you make that work, you build your Drone Factory in some obscuring Storm and start raining hell down on his unsuspecting population with your cloaked drone fleet. yeah

Doom, doom, doom, doom, doom....Sadly we're playing v1.49 right now (I just created a Gold game to use as a sequel since folks are starting to get bored and decide that 1.49 is too buggy). So no drone fleets, but cloaked troop-dropping ships are on my list, and covert recon is my friend. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Sweeper fleet will go through next turn, and I'll try to set it up so that my SY goes through on the same turn, but not the same day. How would one set this up?

Ruatha

May 23rd, 2003, 07:35 PM

Originally posted by Loser:
Don't just leave it there... send the sweeper fleet in to die and pop that SY throgh the turn after... or maybe with them.... but cloaked.

But if it's in the same fleet as them, even if it's cloaked, I think it still ends up in combat... I think...

No, not the same turn, in that case it will die.
If it is at the same sector as the sweepers at the same day it will enter combat even if it's not fleeted with them (If cloaked it will decloak).
The turn after he will propably have a minefield there again, see Jimbob's post below.

Any fleet you have must include capacity to sweep 100 mines, never move that fleet without supporting sweepers in it!!,Never!

[ May 23, 2003, 18:38: Message edited by: Ruatha ]

Pooka

May 23rd, 2003, 07:39 PM

Originally posted by Ruatha:
No, not the same turn, in that case it will die.
If it is at the same sector as the sweepers at the same day it will enter combat even if it's not fleeted with them (If cloaked it will decloak).
The turn after he will propably have a minefield there again, see Jimbob's post below.

Any fleet you have must include capacity to sweep 100 mines, never move that fleet without supporting sweepers in it!!,Never!I have sweeping ships now, but it takes 10 destroyers, yet, to sweep 100 mines. How do you slip a cloaked ship through this mess?

Aloofi

May 23rd, 2003, 08:44 PM

Use transport hulls for minesweeping. Two medium transports with Minesweeper component 3 can easily sweep 100 mines.

Ruatha

May 23rd, 2003, 09:46 PM

Originally posted by Pooka:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Ruatha:
No, not the same turn, in that case it will die.
If it is at the same sector as the sweepers at the same day it will enter combat even if it's not fleeted with them (If cloaked it will decloak).
The turn after he will propably have a minefield there again, see Jimbob's post below.

Any fleet you have must include capacity to sweep 100 mines, never move that fleet without supporting sweepers in it!!,Never!I have sweeping ships now, but it takes 10 destroyers, yet, to sweep 100 mines. How do you slip a cloaked ship through this mess?<hr /></blockquote>You don't even try, sorry.
Save it for when you take your next fleet with those additional 10 sweeping destroyers with you, or better yet, research larger hulls!

[ May 23, 2003, 20:47: Message edited by: Ruatha ]