Moo3 is a shareware now [Archive]

Taz-in-Space

May 28th, 2003, 04:37 AM

OK! Now Taz is happy he did NOT buy MOO3 at full price! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Which brings up the question...is it worth postage? Come on all you MOO3 owners (with patches) is the game worth the effort now? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

A review from Amazon's site:

****Transcript of MOO3 Experience****

3:05pm - *sees Moo3 on shelf in store* Ooh, I want to buy this game so much. MOO1 and 2 were all time classics and once again I'll be driving my Humans into conquest over the other space lackeys!

3:45pm *Loading screen* Ok, I see there's an instruction manual in here...hmm. Ooh, there's a little backstory deal. Hey this is actually kind of interesting...

4:00pm *still loading* Hmm...still loading. My but this is a good story. I hope the game plays good, I don't see much in the way of instructions in here. Usually that means "Tutorials" (smiles)

4:05pm Ok, done loading. Now let's see...huh? What the heck is this intro movie about? There's like 200 different things going on, and there's this guy with this thing on his chest, ick...what a weird spacey, yet undeniably psychadelic feel about it, mixed with wistful philosophical banter from the announcer.

4:07pm Ok...Main screen is up. Now let's see how this works...grrr, I hate popup window tutorials. *reads* man, this is some mundane reading. Ok, keep clicking...hmmm...I know I should be reading this but it's written in college textbook monotone.

4:10pm Hmm...it says here I have 2 Scouts and a Colony Ship in the queue...I think that's the queue. Actually it looks like there's 2 queues here. Huh?

4:12pm Oh these popup thingies are annoying *hits cancel*...there we go. Huh? There's still a million popups...No, I don't want to research Policy Making, I want to get Fusion Beams.

4:18pm Good grief...I don't care about you anymore Sitrep. *Sighs* I miss the Sean Connery guy who gave me those science reports. "One click only, Vasily"

4:25pm Hmm...I've explored all these stars, but....whoa! Ancient Battle Damage! Now that sounds cool...hmm. Wonder what that is. Well, I'll just access the Encyclopedia thingie...*searches* funny...there's nothing about it in here. Strange...sure does sound cool though. Now if I can just colonize the planet.

4:34pm *Sighs* I can't seem to colonize this fool planet...no right click menus, no order giving to ships. What the heck? Ah well, I'll just let my scouts roam around some more.

4:36pm Huh? An enemy ship over my home planet? Egads!...hmm...Battle...No, I don't want to Watch it, I want to Control it. *moments pass* ...what? ... Engage dangit!

4:38pm What the heck is going on here? This guy is still over my planet and I can't seem to attack him. Grrr...well, I guess he's ok there, doesn't seem to be doing anything anyways.

4:45pm Hmm...this is really kind of boring. All I'm doing is clicking the Turn button. This Sitrep thing is getting annoying, it keeps telling me I have colonies, but I haven't sent out any Colony ships. Hmm...I wonder. The annoying "tutorial" said something about the computer doing some stuff for me...

4:46pm Oh, I remember. The Planets button. I just click on that and.....?? Where the heck did all these colonies come from?? I never gave such orders...what?

4:50pm Good grief! I didn't know all these planets were mine! Why weren't they color coded like on MOO2 to let me know where my boundaries were? Oh God I have a headache

5:00pm Great, now I'm over some colony named GME-351A or something. What kind of civilization name is that? Oh well...it keeps asking me if I want to attack, but I only have 1 scout there. Oh ..., go ahead and attack, what's it matter at this point? Hmm...hey, this looks promising...a rotating 3D planet...and explosions! But where's my ships? What the he-- is with this menu? No I don't want to disband the freakin' task force!

5:05pm *Head in hands* Oh my God, how did this game get out the door? I haven't seen anything this buggy since the original Outpost way back when, and that had a cooler intro. *Sighs and checks receipt*...great. No returns, just exchange. Oh God what was I thinking?

5:10pm *MOO 2 Loading* Ah, now this is more like it! Ah, hiya Mr. Connery, why yes I'd like to research Fusion Beams, thank you very much!

EDITTED TO INCLUDE ABOVE REVIEW - at least the reviewer didn't ENTIRELY lose his sense of humor! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ May 28, 2003, 03:58: Message edited by: Taz-in-Space ]

Atrocities

May 28th, 2003, 05:56 AM

MOO3 is utter crap. Only a few things about the game are worth mentioning, and even those are not that hot.

Taera

May 28th, 2003, 06:22 AM

lemme guess... graphics and sounds and graphics?

trooper

May 28th, 2003, 08:35 AM

Too bad SE IV is not available on amazon, we could have read then : "270 people recommended Space Empires IV gold instead of Master of Orion 3"...
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Will

May 28th, 2003, 08:37 AM

Hmmm... funny, I've never seen that many 3rd-party sellers on Amazon... "28 used & new from $15.00"

"Comments: - Complete in original small box. Opened with light wear."
Does this mean that the previous owner only threw around the box for a few seconds in a fit of rage, or for several minutes?

trooper

May 28th, 2003, 08:46 AM

Never seen so much bad customer reviews on a product... I really wonder how some people can still buy it !

Specially like this one :
"
[...]
I recommend Space Empires IV Gold by Malfador Machinations instead of MOO-III.

Review by: Maximillian Ben Hanan"

Fyron

May 28th, 2003, 08:52 AM

People are stupid and will buy anything. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

dogscoff

May 28th, 2003, 09:03 AM

Now come on people, the demise of MOO3 just isn't funny, and we shouldn't laugh at the misfortune of the developppers.

*pause*

BWWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAAHAHAHHAAA AAAA!!!!

Desdinova

May 28th, 2003, 07:59 PM

you know a game is bad when game copy world does not have any patches, fixes, cracks, or anything for it. moo3 bombed. but if its free it might be worth getting. however having to buy the game then send in for rebate i am not sure its worth it.

Loser

May 28th, 2003, 08:11 PM

Don't buy it. What you see will break your heart.

Please excuse me while I quote myself. Ahem...

Originally posted by Loser:
It is very disappointing right now. It is like seeing your kid sister, the one who was so promising, the one who excelled in athletics and academics and debate in Junior High, like seeing that kid sister drop out of high school, knocked up by her drug dealer, hooked on smack, dirty, hopeless, and coming to you for money.

General Woundwort

May 28th, 2003, 08:46 PM

MOO3 came out? I hadn't noticed, I was too busy working on my "Highliner" mod... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Seriously, there is some good coming from this fiasco... SEIV is getting some good free publicity. Here's another testimonial from Amazon...

Space Empires IV Gold is so much more..., April 3, 2003
Reviewer: DAVID MELLUSI from Norwich, CT United States
Like many others, I waited YEARS for this game to finally come out. And... I was disappointed.
(SNIP)
If you want a space game, I recommend Space Empires IV Gold, available through Shrapnel Games or through the Z-vendor Chips and Bits. It came out a few years ago, and the graphics aren't as pretty as MOO3, but the game is a lot better.

Voidhawk

May 29th, 2003, 01:14 AM

Yeah, the game is virtually unplayable in it's current state. I honestly tried to like it for what it was instead of for what I wanted it to be, but it just didn't work out. The game simply isn't fun to play (for me at least, some folks seem to enjoy it). Personally, I haven't been this disappointed in a game since the first Battlecruiser.

I'm planning on giving it another shot once the code patch comes out, but my hopes aren't high. I'm trying to keep an open mind.

Erax

May 29th, 2003, 01:33 AM

I never rush out and buy a game as soon as it's released. I never, ever pre-order. There was only one exception : X-Com Apocalypse, I bought that one as soon as I saw it, but I was younger then. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I will take your advice and avoid MoO3 like the plague.

But we should be asking ourselves, why is MoO3 such a poor game ? Not how, plenty has been said about that, but why ? Did the original developer sell the rights to another company ? Were any of the people who worked on MoO2 on this project ? Was there interference from the publisher ? In other words, what went wrong ? Owning the MoO line was supposed to be like owning a license to print money, how did they manage to make such a mess of it ?

dogscoff

May 29th, 2003, 01:45 AM

Also, has there been any talk of Moo4? Maybe they'll be rushing to get something onto the market that is more like what everyone hoped moo3 would be so they can put this fiasco into the past and bury it.

Kind of like Aliens resurrecttion being the film the Alien3 should have been, or highlander3 trying to salvage some credibility for the line by completely disowning the abysmal highlander2.

jimbob

May 29th, 2003, 07:31 AM

But the artwork is cool right? Could someone who has it strip out the races and make shipsets/racial sets for them in SEIV? That way we will "save" the valuable bits, allowing them to live on in the SEIV realm!

I'd just like to think of it as salvaging the hard work of the artists http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Fyron

May 29th, 2003, 08:16 AM

Planets can easily be rendered into se4 sized planets. Not sure about facilities, or ships. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

jimbob

May 29th, 2003, 08:30 AM

True Fyron http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif . It would be good if you could find the ship pic files, but I'm guessing its been coded to protect against that sort of "piracy" (not open source I'm guessing).

I was thinking of maybe screen shots of ships and facilities. Maybe get lower resolution, but atleast get something. I haven't played the game, so I don't know how big the ship pics are "in-game". I'm hoping they're bigger than in SEIV.

sachmo

May 29th, 2003, 06:10 PM

I am still amazed at the state of the gaming software industry today. Not only do we have people PAYING to beta games, but a company can get away with putting out software that absolutely does not work as designed and they get to walk away with the profits. Yes, you can talk about bugs in Microsoft and such, but almost every time, the functionality is there in my experience.

There are differences, obviously. With business software, there is usually a pilot period. There are evaluations before you can buy the game. We as consumers don't get that with gaming software. Still, there should be some recourse.

This stuff just chaps my hide.

Voidhawk

May 29th, 2003, 11:15 PM

I agree, sachmo.

I really think the primary downfall of MOO3 is the lack of any sort of useful documentation. Combine this with the bugs, and a player is constantly left wondering "Hm, this feature doesn't work like I assumed it would. I wonder if I just did something wrong, or if it's due to a bug that hasn't been reported yet?" As there is no documentation to explain what some features should do, there's really no way to tell. Unless of course, you test and re-test the effects of the features for hours on end until you get the desired results. And I don't feel like I should've had to pay for the "privelege" of doing that.

MOO3 is one of those games that the more effort you put into learning it, the more enjoyment you're likely to get out of it. Unfortunately, it's just too painfully tedious for some people like me to learn without proper documentation to at least help me along.

It bugs me that I paid full price for it, but if nothing else I'll be able to show it to my grandchildren as a little piece of gaming history. "This, kids, was one of the most highly anticipated, yet ill received PC games in history!" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ May 29, 2003, 22:17: Message edited by: Voidhawk ]

Karibu

May 30th, 2003, 10:07 AM

I agree MOO3 was a dissappointment, but I believe it can still be reasonable game to play. Players has made mods for the game, which make game encyclopedia more useful, AI more aggressive, etc. There is actually dozens of mods, which you can find going into MOO3 Boards.

However, there is 2 major flaws in the game. First is that it is 800x600 permanently and it looks horrible in the higher resolution displays (I have 21" monitor). Second and bigger flaw of the game is, that AI makes all the things for you and you can't actually control anything. You can't choose what to research (except using those sliders what were on MOO1), you don't see how your money is generated (except complicated mathematics). This game includes 3 different taxes. Diplomacy is badly crippled, lot worse than in MOO2 (Moo2 had decent diplomacy at least). Spies and spying is bad, bad, bad...

And making those developent plans are quite frustrating too. Well, I could go on, but this all had been said many times in MOO3 forums. I personally am willing to wait the patch to see if it can save the game.

Fyron

May 30th, 2003, 10:15 AM

Requiring tons of mods to make the game even be playable is a good indication that it is a terrible game and the developers should be banished from the game development market before they can do even more damage. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Or at least harshly penalized. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ May 30, 2003, 09:16: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Erax

May 30th, 2003, 05:33 PM

No one answered my question (I haven't found the answer elsewhere, either). What went wrong ? How could they have made such a mess out of a good game ? The way you guys talk, re-doing MoO2 with better graphics and a couple of new races would have been better than MoO3.

Infogrames used to have a good name, quality-wise (I love their Alone in the Dark series). I know nothing at all about Quicksilver.

EvilGenius4ABetterTomorro

May 30th, 2003, 06:18 PM

I thought designing ships was still pretty good. But then you had to put them in battle in real time combat (yuk!) with very tiny graphics.
How could a company make such a horrible game? Repeated beatings with the stoopid stick!
Actually I think they meant well but didn't listen to anyone's input. NO REAL TIME COMBAT! How many times do turn based strategy gamers have to say that? We are still a force to be listened to. In the end they thought the MOO name was good enough to smooth over any problems with Real Time Combat and obscure economics. Still waiting for the "fun patch".

Suicide Junkie

May 30th, 2003, 06:46 PM

I have to say that I belive quite strongly that real time combat is not inherently bad. I know that it is very dangerous territory for these types of games.

Developers have yet to find a formula for making consistently good RTC systems.

The one game I have in mind as a good RTC game was RoboSport ... You would write short scripts for a few seconds of combat at a time, such as "face north", "scan and fire for 2 seconds", "duck down", "run across the gap to location X,Y", "scan and fire for 2 seconds" "face towards gap" "switch to rocket launcher" "scan and fire for remaining time"

With all the orders in, the robots run and bLast and lay mines, and bust into buildings like commandoes... beautiful to watch, and I could trash the other humans I played against at 3 on 1 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Karibu

May 30th, 2003, 06:53 PM

I can answer your question. First of all, they did not have any leader in the developement group. They had artistic leader (IIRC), but no project leader. Any coder can imagine what is the result if there is no good leadership in a LARGE project. MOO3 is very large.

Secondly, they tried to achieve too much and made regrettable compromises in the way. They tried to make a game, where player would be like a real emperor. What does a real emperor do? He decides to start a war, but do not war himself. He decides that education is important but he do not build schools. You get the point.

Where did this lead to? Player makes policies, which AI uses to build up / manage planets, colonize and research. What is left to player? Designing new ship models (very crappy way, I would say), building spies one by one(you can't make them "repeat build"), diplomacy (choices are basically to offer tech trade which AI rarely accepts, increase current money and research trade and start a war), changing tax rates (when unrest goes too high, this is every turn nightmare when you first rise them and next turn lower them. Every planet separately) and most importantly: push the TURN BUTTON.

What about two most important strategy game factors: combat and science?

COMBAT: You get realtime 3D screen, where you see little dots inside pentagram. Controlling them is to click pentagram and point it to the enemyforce. That is attack. Forget the neat tactics you used in MOO2. They don't exist. Then you see little lights and little dots going around and sometimes disappearing (if out of sensor range). How far your weapons carry? You can't see any "sphere of range" or "sphere of sight" around your task force. Only way to find out is to attack. There is no any sign or knowldge how far enemy is in combat screen. Not a one. Did I mention furious clicking and scrolling? You can't see the combat area at one time. You don't have that little strategic map (like in MOO2) beside tactic map. Oh no. You scroll and click when trying to keep your forces alive and think "where the hell is my task force?"

SCIENCE: You have 6 areas of science (like in MOO1). Economy, energy, social science, physical science, biology and mathematics. All you can do is to set mentioned policies, where you emphatize research and change the percentual distribuition between the fields. What happens? You get new inventions every other turn and soon you lose your interest on those. For some bizzarre coincidence, all hand guns look same, all engines look same, all biological devices look same, all ship guns look same...

Oh, and when you have this new and fancy fleet which has mass drivers, guess if you are able to refit them to be Armor piercing mass driver? CORRECT!! You can't even give your ships a new paint after they are built!

LEADERS: You get one or two leaders early game. They die in 10 turns if you have not chosen to have supreme spying skills (spies at home defend you). Did I mention of the bug which gets your leader to get killed every turn and new one appearing the next turn? Oh, by the way, you can forget the leader experince, ship experience and YES! YES! NO SHIP LEADERS. HURRAH!

GALAXY SCREEN: You can zoom in and out. For some reason, starlanes and system names appear only when you have the maximum zoom. Actually, all the details disappear if you zoom out, expect the star colors. Try to find any specific planet in a huge galaxy. Next thing worse is to find a specific grain of sand in a football field looking through toilet paper roll.

Hmm... I think I stop here before I get sarcastic. Complete list of things you can find in MOO3 forums.

Karibu has spoken

Fyron

May 30th, 2003, 07:53 PM

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
I have to say that I belive quite strongly that real time combat is not inherently bad. I know that it is very dangerous territory for these types of games.

Developers have yet to find a formula for making consistently good RTC systems.

The one game I have in mind as a good RTC game was RoboSport ... You would write short scripts for a few seconds of combat at a time, such as "face north", "scan and fire for 2 seconds", "duck down", "run across the gap to location X,Y", "scan and fire for 2 seconds" "face towards gap" "switch to rocket launcher" "scan and fire for remaining time"

With all the orders in, the robots run and bLast and lay mines, and bust into buildings like commandoes... beautiful to watch, and I could trash the other humans I played against at 3 on 1 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif BOTF had combat similar to that. You issue orders for a "turn" and then the ships fight in real time-esque execution for a turn. The orders were not quite as complex, they were various possible attack patterns. But it worked rather well. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif If only all of BOTF was as good... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ May 30, 2003, 18:54: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

General Woundwort

May 30th, 2003, 07:53 PM

Originally posted by Karibu:
I can answer your question. First of all, they did not have any leader in the developement group. They had artistic leader (IIRC), but no project leader. Any coder can imagine what is the result if there is no good leadership in a LARGE project. MOO3 is very large.Indeed. As the old joke goes, "'What is the definition of a camel?' Answer - a horse designed by committee."

Wardad

May 30th, 2003, 09:39 PM

Originally posted by Chief Engineer Erax:
...Infogames used to have a good name, quality-wise...Wow! If I were Infogames management, I would change the name after this fiasco. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

zen.

May 30th, 2003, 09:47 PM

Er...that was tongue-in-cheek, right? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Infogrames actually DID change it...to Atari!

They pretty much would rather be associated with the new Enter the Matrix game than MOO3. lol

http://www.gamemarketwatch.com/news/item.asp?nid=2690

zen

Erax

May 30th, 2003, 09:52 PM

Originally posted by Karibu:
Secondly, they tried to achieve too much and made regrettable compromises in the way. They tried to make a game, where player would be like a real emperor. What does a real emperor do? He decides to start a war, but do not war himself. He decides that education is important but he do not build schools. You get the point.You mean they made Sim Galaxy instead of MoO3 ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Wardad

May 30th, 2003, 10:01 PM

They made a SIM Galaxy that plays the game for you, and they forgot to give you a front row seat.

Dralasite

May 30th, 2003, 11:37 PM

The one game I have in mind as a good RTC game was RoboSport ...
Thanks! I was looking for this game awhile back but I couldn't recall the name. I agree, this was a fun game. However, I'd say it is better described as a hybrid of real time and turn based.

oleg

May 30th, 2003, 11:59 PM

Now, keep in mind SEV is going to have a real time combat, AFAIK http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Fyron

May 31st, 2003, 12:41 AM

Yes, and Aaron will make it properly designed so as to eliminate all the click festing things people associate with RTS games. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif There is no way any beta tester will let him rest if he doesn't. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Just because Quiksilver can not get anything right does not mean that it is impossible. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ May 31, 2003, 01:04: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

deccan

May 31st, 2003, 11:52 PM

Hey, what's wrong with real-time combat? It just has to be pausable. I liked it in Medieval: Total War.

narf poit chez BOOM

June 1st, 2003, 06:40 AM

try taking a horse into a desert.

Fyron

June 1st, 2003, 06:46 AM

A horse in a specially designed truck that keeps the horse alive without any significant problems, and yes, a horse in a desert works just fine. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

General Woundwort

June 1st, 2003, 04:12 PM

Just be sure that it has no name. It'll feel good to get out of the rain. In the desert, you can't remember your name, for there ain't no one for to give you no name, na-na na na-na-na-na-na...

OK, I'll stop. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

oleg

June 1st, 2003, 04:32 PM

Doors rules !

General Woundwort

June 1st, 2003, 04:43 PM

Originally posted by oleg:
Doors rules !Actually, I think that was America. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

oleg

June 1st, 2003, 04:51 PM

Yes, but...

"People are strange, when you're a stranger
Faces look ugly when you're alone
Women seem wicked, when you're unwanted
Streets are uneven, when you're down

When you're strange- faces come out of the rain
When you're strange- no one remembers your name
When you're strange, when you're strange, when you're str-ange " http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

atari_eric

June 1st, 2003, 08:00 PM

Originally posted by zenbudo:
Er...that was tongue-in-cheek, right? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Infogrames actually DID change it...to Atari!
Sigh, the good Atari name has been passed around like a porn mag in a prison. Until someone who cares about the name gets it instead of some corporate monster grabbing it to turn it out for tricks, it will never gain its former glory. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Lisif Deoral

June 1st, 2003, 09:06 PM

About real-time combat, noone remembers the "true real time" timescale of Sid Meier's Antietam! (it was written with the "!")?
By the way, it was only published by Sid Meier (i.e., Firaxis) - the developer was Breakaway Games, and the latest game of that series is now published by Shrapnel Games.

Basically, it was really "true real time": a minute of game time was equal to a minute of real time. The whole battle Lasted about 12 hours, IIRC... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Unfortunately, the game had a few bugs, or at least my PC ran out of memory... Anyway, you get the point: Dune II & co. should be called "frenzied-time" rather than real-time http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

PS: wow, this is my 100th post! (in about 2 1/2 years...) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
PPS: about Infogrames... well, I like their stuff since North & South (hey, that was real-frenzied-time, too!), I won't change my opinion just for MoO3.

[ June 01, 2003, 20:09: Message edited by: Lisif Deoral ]

Ed Kolis

June 2nd, 2003, 03:17 AM

Pfft... call me a kiddie who doesn't know the glory of the TRUE old-school (before Nintendo) but the only thing "Atari" says to me is "outdated games with crappy graphics"... say, that sounds kinda familiar http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

henk brouwer

June 2nd, 2003, 11:39 AM

Originally posted by Lisif Deoral:

PS: wow, this is my 100th post! (in about 2 1/2 years...) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
And I thought I had very few Posts for the time I've been a member http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ( 199 Posts in 2 1/2 year)

dogscoff

June 2nd, 2003, 11:44 AM

199 Posts? Hey Henk, make one more post and we can throw you a promotion party!

Aloofi

June 2nd, 2003, 02:42 PM

I need water!!!
I'm still drunk from Last nite's party. Wow, Lost Paradise rocks, or is it Paradise lost? Those Brits are always playing with words. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
The new Marilyn Manson's album rocks, and I thought that guy's 15 minutes were over.....
They also played Behemoth, Grave, BoySetsFire, Paparoach, Iced Earth, Overkill, Grunstruck, Rammestein, Sea of Green, Slipknot, Testament, Slayer, and a zillion bands I don't know http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif .
I need water!!!

General Woundwort

June 2nd, 2003, 03:04 PM

As you can see, MOO3 is so bad it can't even stay the focus of attention on its own thread. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

henk brouwer

June 2nd, 2003, 05:05 PM

Originally posted by dogscoff:
199 Posts? Hey Henk, make one more post and we can throw you a promotion party!But that would be my third http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif post today..

But okay, free beer for everyone! (and water for Aloofi) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

narf poit chez BOOM

June 3rd, 2003, 02:59 AM

a horse, not a horse, of course.

solops

June 3rd, 2003, 11:24 PM

Just got MOO3 (for free). Beautiful stuff, lots of detail. I have no idea if it is playable or playworthy, but it is certainly pretty!

Krsqk

June 4th, 2003, 05:30 AM

Ooooooh. Look at the pretty game! *pets the game* Now, I wonder what tricks it knows...

...(twelve hours later)...

What? Jump through the hoop? *jumps through a hoop*

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

General Woundwort

June 4th, 2003, 10:54 AM

Originally posted by Krsqk:
Ooooooh. Look at the pretty game! *pets the game* Now, I wonder what tricks it knows...

...(twelve hours later)...

What? Jump through the hoop? *jumps through a hoop*

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Who, you or MOO3? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Fyron

June 4th, 2003, 09:13 PM

Originally posted by solops:
Just got MOO3 (for free). Beautiful stuff, lots of detail. I have no idea if it is playable or playworthy, but it is certainly pretty!Yes, that is all it is. Nice looking eye candy. No substance.

Krsqk

June 5th, 2003, 04:37 AM

Originally posted by General Woundwort:
Who, you or MOO3? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif Me, of course. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif You think MOO3 would do any tricks I wanted it too? Oh, it does tricks, just not on request. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Chronon

June 5th, 2003, 08:39 PM

Since we're on the topic of shareware...

I hate to just throw games in the garbage. So in the true spirit of shareware, I'll send my copy of MoO3 to anyone who would like to try the game. Just send me an email with your name and address, and I'll put my lightly used copy in the mail to you. No need to return it. I may ask for the cost of shipping, but only if it's more than $3 or $4. Anyone interested? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Edit: Well, there was at least one person interested, and I have just found a happy home for the game. So, my offer is now closed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ June 06, 2003, 03:02: Message edited by: Chronon ]

Roanon

June 5th, 2003, 11:54 PM

MOO3 for free ? ?

Sorry, no. That is too expensive. The game is not worth that much http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Wardad

June 6th, 2003, 12:06 AM

I collect games. Should I keep MOO3 in the wrapper? Or should I try to play it?

cybersol

June 6th, 2003, 12:43 AM

Well, I did order it. But I got a 15% off combo deal with another game that I already wanted and the shipping was free. So even after postage for the rebate, they are still giving me $2.50 to take it off their hands. I might eventually open it if I get really bored AND good news comes out on the patch front.

Roanon

June 6th, 2003, 02:46 AM

2.50$ given for taking MOO3 ? ?

Ah, the price is slowly aproaching the real value of this "game". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Jack Simth

June 6th, 2003, 04:01 AM

Originally posted by Roanon:
2.50$ given for taking MOO3 ? ?

Ah, the price is slowly aproaching the real value of this "game". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif Ah, but what is time worth? It takes time to put the reciept in an envelope with a name and address to have the check sent to. It takes time to take the check to the bank to deposit it. How much is this time worth? If, all told, it takes half an hour, then that works out to $5 an hour, well below minimum wage in many parts of the United States of America; still not necessarily worth it.

deccan

June 6th, 2003, 05:35 AM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Yes, that is all it is. Nice looking eye candy. No substance.Didn't think I'd be defending MOO3 in any forum, let alone this one, but I do think that you're being unduly harsh.

I haven't played SEIV all that much yet, but I readily agree that I like SEIV much, much more than I will ever like MOO3. That said, though, I've a mind to add some comments into the 'Tell Aaron what you'd like for SE5..." thread and when I stop to think about it, I find that a lot of my comments would boil down to "make it more like MOO3".

This is because MOO3 is in fact packed full of cool ideas even if the execution is horrible and the result an undigested mish-mash of many different peoples' ideas.

(True Fact: I was browsing around the MOO3 forums earlier today and one of the programmers was saying that they couldn't fix the part of the diplomacy system that generates the famously cryptic speeches made by AI controlled empires because it's a black box that nobody understood anymore.)

These ideas include: planets divided into regions with individual characteristics, an economic and planetary modelling system that I feel is far superior to the SEIV Version, better, more interesting ground combat, task forces with specific, designated roles for ships within them, and yes, even real-time combat.

Voidhawk

June 6th, 2003, 07:57 AM

Originally posted by deccan:
...yes, even real-time combat.Anathema! Begone, heathen! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I more or less agree with you, MOO3 has tremendous potential. I daresay it's probably one of the most ambitious undertakings in gaming history. Problem is, it's just not even close to being finished yet. Will it ever be finished? Who knows. The long awaited first code patch comes out tomorrow, so I'm kind of looking forward to seeing if it helps me to enjoy the game more (any amount of enjoyment at all would qualify as "more" at this point).

It's still got quite a ways to go if it ever has any hope of competing with SEIV for hard drive space on this 4Xer's computer, though.

Captain Kwok

June 6th, 2003, 08:16 AM

A little sidebar:

I know it's a little while off and Aaron hasn't done much work on it yet, but I believe that Space Empires V is going to be an incredible game. You wouldn't believe the volume of excellent ideas that have been generated already for the game and most importantly, the influence that our fine community can inject into the development process. I'm completely serious and being privy to some non-public Posts on the subject - let me assure you that Aaron is very receptive to our input!

[ June 06, 2003, 07:17: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]

Chronon

June 6th, 2003, 04:45 PM

I, too, think MoO3 has some great ideas - mostly the same ones deccan has pointed out - but it just wasn't put together very well. Perhaps it can be improved, but probably not to the point where it would be as much fun as SE4 on PBW. My major reason for abandoning the game is lack of time. In the hour that I have everyday to play, I want to play the best games I can find. These days it's SE4 (on PBW) and Hearts of Iron (solo).

Cpt. Kwok, I am looking forward to SE5 and Star Fury. If SE5 is going to be a good empire building game like SE4, with a fun real-time combat component (using the Star Fury system, or something similar), I'm all for it! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Fyron

June 6th, 2003, 08:57 PM

MOO3 could have been a good game, but all those cool ideas (except how they have real time combat done) boil down to little more than eye candy because you can't really get past the AI and the GUI to actually make good use of them. Well, the ground combat might not be as useless, but with how the rest of MOO3 plays out, it is overwhelmed. Now, how they did real time combat is not very good, and should not be emulated for se5. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Master Belisarius

June 7th, 2003, 02:05 AM

Originally posted by deccan:
[QUOTE]
...and yes, even real-time combat.Really I can agree in some of your comments, but NEVER will accept that the Moo3 real-time combat is good (or better than the SE4 tactical combat)!

I don't hate the Moo3 real-time combat because is real time... I hate it because think is one of the WORST tactical engines that I knew!
GOD, with those tiny ships, confuse orders, and withouth the "pause" button, is really hard try to play this thing...
Even OLD games like Pax Imperia2, Ascendancy and Rebellion, had better real time combat engines!! And this is not an opinion... it's a simple fact to everyone who has played those games and played Moo3 can see.

DavidG

June 7th, 2003, 05:08 AM

OK so MOO3 sucks. I must be dim but I still think I'd like to try it for myself. Surely someone has some positive coments or can direct me to a forum of MOO3 fans (there must be a few http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

Baron Munchausen

June 7th, 2003, 05:33 AM

The 'official BETA patch' has been released on the Moo3 website and fileplanet. Yes, 'beta' is in the actual name/description of it. I guess they are now so paranoid that they won't call it a 'real' patch until it is proven successful with the public. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif But this represents a fairly extensive revision of many aspects of the game. Many bugs fixed, many common-sense features add (ability to rename star systems, ability to refit ships)... Looks like it will require a re-assessment of MOO 3.

deccan

June 7th, 2003, 05:49 AM

I do not believe that the MOO3 patch added the ability to refit ships.

deccan

June 7th, 2003, 05:52 AM

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
I don't hate the Moo3 real-time combat because is real time... I hate it because think is one of the WORST tactical engines that I knew!
GOD, with those tiny ships, confuse orders, and withouth the "pause" button, is really hard try to play this thing...I never meant to say that the MOO3 combat engine is good. I hate it too. I meant that the idea of real-time combat is good. Even MOO3 ground combat as implemented sucks, but the idea behind it is good.

Antra

June 7th, 2003, 02:38 PM

Has anyone here actually played with the patch? It's a whole new game.

deccan

June 7th, 2003, 02:51 PM

Originally posted by Antra:
Has anyone here actually played with the patch? It's a whole new game.I plan to but I'm having slow time downloading it.

Master Belisarius

June 7th, 2003, 03:20 PM

Originally posted by deccan:
[QUOTE]I never meant to say that the MOO3 combat engine is good. I hate it too. I meant that the idea of real-time combat is good. Even MOO3 ground combat as implemented sucks, but the idea behind it is good.K. Sorry! I misunderstood you...

Baron Munchausen

June 8th, 2003, 12:10 AM

Originally posted by Antra:
Has anyone here actually played with the patch? It's a whole new game.The reaction on the 'official' forums is quite positive. I won't have my 'original' copy for a week or so yet. Couldn't resist the 'free' option, though, so I'll have it soon. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Then I can d/l the patch and have the good Version right from the start. Being forewarned that it's really a completely different game than the '4X'* we expect of the MOO series, I'll hopefully be able to approach it in the right frame of mind and learn how to play it.

* (I mean, even in respect to the '5X' marketting blurb. It's not '4X + something else' it's completely different from traditional 4X games)

[ June 07, 2003, 23:11: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

Ed Kolis

June 9th, 2003, 12:28 AM

Originally posted by DavidG:
OK so MOO3 sucks. I must be dim but I still think I'd like to try it for myself. Surely someone has some positive coments or can direct me to a forum of MOO3 fans (there must be a few http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )Poke around on www.ina-community.com, (http://www.ina-community.com,) the official Infogrames forums, provided they haven't reshuffled their website since they changed to Atari... I used to frequent there but ever since MOO3's release I haven't bothered... it would be too depressing http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

raynfala

June 9th, 2003, 09:51 PM

Originally posted by Roanon:
2.50$ given for taking MOO3 ? ?

Ah, the price is slowly aproaching the real value of this "game". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif Now anybody can get it for the "real value". Amazon just lowered the price to $18.00. Group it with something else you were already going to get (to get free shipping), spend $0.37 on your rebate form, and voila... you are compensated $1.63 for leasing out some shelf space to a poor, lonely, otherwise-unsold copy of MOO3. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

--Raynfala

Suicide Junkie

June 9th, 2003, 09:57 PM

So, how many copies do you have to order to pay for the shipping and handling?

Jack Simth

June 9th, 2003, 09:58 PM

Originally posted by raynfala:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Roanon:
Ah, the price is slowly aproaching the real value of this "game". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif Now anybody can get it for the "real value". Amazon just lowered the price to $18.00. Group it with something else you were already going to get (to get free shipping), spend $0.37 on your rebate form, and voila... you are compensated $1.63 for leasing out some shelf space to a poor, lonely, otherwise-unsold copy of MOO3. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

--Raynfala<hr /></blockquote>Hang on - I think I mentioned something about that earlier in this thread - I did! I did!
Originally posted by Jack Simth:
We'll know for sure if it was overpriced if they drop the price again before the $20.00 rebate expires.

Ed Kolis

June 9th, 2003, 10:40 PM

Last night I dreamed that I met Rantz Hoseley and he offered me a job at Quicksilver... and while I acted elated to his face, I was considering turning down the position just because I didn't want to be associated with that company! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

raynfala

June 9th, 2003, 10:54 PM

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
So, how many copies do you have to order to pay for the shipping and handling?Two, but that's not gonna work. The rebate is only good for one copy per household. Not sure if somebody else could file the rebate off the other copy, as the proof of purchase has your name on it... *shrug*

--Raynfala

raynfala

June 9th, 2003, 10:54 PM

... of course, you could always look for another software title that's free after rebate. You'd be surprised how often that happens at Amazon.

--Raynfala

[ June 09, 2003, 21:55: Message edited by: raynfala ]

General Woundwort

June 9th, 2003, 10:59 PM

Originally posted by raynfala:
... of course, you could always look for another software title that's free after rebate. You'd be surprised how often that happens at Amazon.Yes, but...
less than three months after it's released?
what was supposed to be the "game of the future"?
the "next installment of the greatest 4X series ever"?

Dralasite

June 9th, 2003, 11:17 PM

game and movie sequels are both difficult to get right

Jack Simth

June 9th, 2003, 11:41 PM

Originally posted by Dralasite:
game and movie sequels are both difficult to get rightThey got it about right with Moo2

Voidhawk

June 10th, 2003, 01:31 AM

... and Civ 2... and Warcraft 2... and Homeworld 2... and IW 2... EU 2... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

A game like MOO3 is extra tricky because it's pretty much one of those rare gaming milestones that only comes along every few years. Lots of people have lots of fond memories of playing the first two. And most of those people don't want some outsider fooling around with a tried and true formula (remember the backlash when Coca-cola changed THEIR formula? hehe). If I was CEO of QSI, I probably wouldn't have touched the MOO license with a 10-foot pole. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

The new patch makes MOO3 a much more satisfying experience, and well worth some of the prices I've seen it going for. Still not quite a great game, IMO, but good. I think this whole fiasco has taught Atari/QSI a valuable lesson: Do NOT trifle with OUR classics. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Atrocities

June 10th, 2003, 07:10 AM

The new patch makes MOO3 a much more satisfying experience, and well worth some of the prices I've seen it going for Would you care to elaberate? What did the patch do that made the game better?

Will

June 10th, 2003, 08:21 AM

Originally posted by Voidhawk:
... and Civ 2... and Warcraft 2... and Homeworld 2... and IW 2... EU 2... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
You forgot SE 4 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Atrocities

June 10th, 2003, 02:09 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Trust me, you don't want MOO3. Even free is too much for the game.Now I distincly remember tell you this a long time ago, but you just had to go and find out for your self. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Atrocities

June 10th, 2003, 02:11 PM

Originally posted by Taz-in-Space:
OK! Now Taz is happy he did NOT buy MOO3 at full price! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Which brings up the question...is it worth postage? Come on all you MOO3 owners (with patches) is the game worth the effort now? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

)H E L L N O !!!!!!!!

Atrocities

June 10th, 2003, 02:20 PM

5:05pm *Head in hands* Oh my God, how did this game get out the door? I haven't seen anything this buggy since the original Outpost way back when, and that had a cooler intro. *Sighs and checks receipt*...great. No returns, just exchange. Oh God what was I thinking? I read that reveiw as well. I had posted about people posting reviews BEFORE the game came out saying it was the greatest game ever. Those guys really must have been idiots.

I could have returned my copy as an exchange then returned later and got my money back when I returned an un-opened copy of the game. I figured to give the dumb *** at QS a chance to redeem themselves. What was I thinking?

You just have to ask what in the hell were those idiots at QS doing all this time? Why oh why didn't some one step up to the plate and say; "Guys this game sucks, lets make it more like moo2?"

If ever there was an excuse to fire a group of people MOO3 is it.

Erax

June 10th, 2003, 02:49 PM

Firing is too gentle. I say we tie them to a chair and make them play their own game !! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Atrocities

June 10th, 2003, 02:54 PM

Originally posted by Chief Engineer Erax:
Firing is too gentle. I say we tie them to a chair and make them play their own game !! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif I'd say ok to that except there is one fundamental flaw to this idea. They would enjoy it as they are the only people who understand how to play it.

No, I would sit them down in a room full of SE IV fans and make them play a game of SEIV in order to demonstrate how a true 4X game is made. Then tie them up to a chair and thow MOO3 disks at them until they died. (Cold and ruthless, hell ya. Just look at my name.)

Loser

June 10th, 2003, 02:56 PM

Originally posted by Ed Kolis:
Last night I dreamed that I met Rantz Hoseley and he offered me a job at Quicksilver... and while I acted elated to his face, I was considering turning down the position just because I didn't want to be associated with that company! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif An interesting quandary....

Take the job. Have fun. Leave it off your resume.

Loser

June 10th, 2003, 02:58 PM

Originally posted by Atrocities:
Then tie them up to a chair and thow MOO3 disks at them until they died. Kill the Cardasians
Which ones?
All of them
... That will ... take some time

Growltigger

June 10th, 2003, 02:59 PM

Ok, so from lurking on this thread, it is rather obvious that MOO3 is a pile of poo, and is basically a great concept diabolically executed in the interests of corporate greed.

Now, if I want other 4X style games, what is there out there for a humble Mediaval and Medal of Honour loony to go and play?

Erax

June 10th, 2003, 03:18 PM

Old games, mostly. MoO2. Master of Magic (if you can get it to run on W95 or later). SMAC. Emperor of the Fading Suns. The X-Com games. The 'General' series by SSI (except Star General, avoid that one). The Battle Isle series. Jagged Alliance.

Ok, so most of those aren't 4X games, but they are all good strategy games (and some of my Favorites). You can probably get them real cheap too, since some of them are quite old by now.

Atrocities

June 10th, 2003, 03:24 PM

Currently out? Well SE IV of course.

GalCic
Moo2
Moo1
BOTF
Rebellion
IG 1
IG II
SE III
Stars (Really good game)
Reach For the Stars (Not so good)

Other I am sure, but I don't know of them.

Other Games such as FPS:
Tribes (*****en)
Tribes II (Fun but not well supported)
DeuEX (A real good game)
SOF I (Not II as it sucked!)
Blade (Fun)
IGI (Fun)

Growltigger

June 10th, 2003, 03:26 PM

Cheers Earwax, what is this "Stars" game and ths "Galactic Civilisations" game. Are these any good?

Atrocities

June 10th, 2003, 03:32 PM

Originally posted by Captain Jean Luc Le Grand Chat:
Cheers Earwax, what is this "Stars" game and ths "Galactic Civilisations" game. Are these any good?Oh come now, his name is Erax not Earwax although I did at one time think that was how it was pronounced. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ June 10, 2003, 14:35: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

Growltigger

June 10th, 2003, 03:44 PM

Fair comment Atrocities but I couldn't resist a dig at my Chief Engineer from the TSSS Phong's HEad.

What is GalCiv like then?

Erax

June 10th, 2003, 03:54 PM

I can help you with Stars! (yes it has an exclamation in the name). It's sort of like SE IV with no warp points and more realistic planetary conditions. It wasn't moddable Last time I checked. Ship design is veeery similar to SEIV.

You could call Stars! 'SEIV lite'. Or maybe SEIV is Stars! on caffeine pills. I think you'll like it either way.

I haven't tried GalCiv. My games budget is pointed at Starfury right now !

Loser

June 10th, 2003, 04:06 PM

The Civilization (http://www.lilback.com/civilization/) games (I and II, but not so much III) are good.

SMAC (http://www.firaxis.com/smac/) and its expansion are Grrreat!

Shogun: Total War, Warlord Edition (http://www.totalwar.com/community/warlord.htm) is also a great game, and I think it meets all four Xs. I have heard good things about its sequels, but I waited for MoO3. Then I came back to SE IV, because MoO3 .... well, that's already been covered and we have no need to get Atrocities going again (think about your blood pressure!).

raynfala

June 10th, 2003, 04:58 PM

Originally posted by Atrocities:
Other Games such as FPS:
Tribes (*****en)
Tribes II (Fun but not well supported)
DeuEX (A real good game)
SOF I (Not II as it sucked!)
Blade (Fun)
IGI (Fun)Oh, okay. If you're going to open the door to FPS-type games, then I'd like to recommend Thief... more specifically, Thief 2, as that's the only one I've played (so far). Somebody at work gave their old, dog-eared copy away to yours truly.

I've never had so much fun not killing anything. To come in guns-a-blazin' is one thing -- to achieve your goal without anybody realizing your were even there is really something you have to experience firsthand.

--Raynfala, fledgling taffer

Growltigger

June 10th, 2003, 05:08 PM

OK, but how does Stars! differ from SEIV then, is it more action, less action? less/more realism or what?

Anyone care to opine on GalCiv?

Erax

June 10th, 2003, 06:39 PM

Less action, at least vs. the AI, which is tough on the defense but not so great on the offense.

Some things are more realistic. Planetary environments and minefields, for example.

Edit : fuel consumption also runs on a more complex model. Any ship can move faster or slower than normal, with corresponding effects on its fuel efficiency. Every engine has its own 'fuel usage curve'.

There are also far fewer tech areas to choose from (negative point, IMO). Like I said, it's SEIV lite.

More edit : Now for a serious question - how many copies has SEIV Gold sold so far ? Is this info public ?

[ June 10, 2003, 17:51: Message edited by: Chief Engineer Erax ]

cybersol

June 10th, 2003, 08:08 PM

Originally posted by Atrocities:
I mean this when I say it, they should fire everyone who was involved with the game and start over. Publish an apology and refund peoples money.Does that mean I would have to give them back the $2.50 they gave me to take the game? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Hrothgar

June 11th, 2003, 12:40 AM

I like GalCiv, tho not as much as SEIV. It's designed for solo play, so all the development effort that otherwise would have gone into multi-player went into the AI instead. I haven't had time to play much since its release--altho I did play CONSTANTLY as part of the open beta test--and the AI kicks my butt on a regular basis at low difficulty levels. They also have a more detailed diplomatic model, in which, altho you still ultimately know you're playing a computer, the illusion of playing another human is much stronger than in other games.

On the down side, there's no ship design--you research techs to get bigger hulls, and research other techs which upgrade your fleet as a whole. Also, there's no tactical combat--ships or fleets fight when they occupy the same location, with the "action" occurring behind the scenes. But, to be fair, this was the intent--to have the AI take care of the tactical detail so the player can focus on the big picture, and the result is a smooth, easily understood system, unlike MOO3 which had the same stated goal but exectued it incomprehensibly. Planetary development can involve a lot more detail, as there is a vast array of different facilities from which to choose--most of which appear as associated techs are researched--but even here, you can let "Governors" [essentially automated queues] handle the details, and they'll actually do what you tell them to--ulike MOO3's "Ministers."

I disagree with whoever it was on this forum who argued that GalCiv isn't a Space 4x game. It certainly is, merely focused on a higher level than most others. But, the decisions you make in the game have a discernable impact on the course of your civilization, and the variety of victory paths, whether military, cultural, technical, etc., require different approaches to play and are all possible to pursue successfully. One final thing: GalCiv is a sequel to a very popular game for the OS2 operating system, a game which had a highly devoted fan base. From everything I've seen, these fans are quite happy with the new game, unlike the legions of angry MOOers.

[ June 11, 2003, 03:40: Message edited by: Hrothgar ]

Atrocities

June 11th, 2003, 01:05 AM

Here is a direct quote from the MOO3 site about how to install the new patch. NOTE: the patch does not install correctly.

To install the patch: Download and unzip the file. In the directory with the unzipped files, run the "Install Moo3 Patch.exe" to install the patch. It will move the files to their appropriate location and update the registry.Do any of you understand this? Unzip the file: Ok, Run the "Install Moo3 Patch.exe:" Ok. About a third of the way through the install, it errors out. This occurs each and every GD time I try it. I have even downloaded the patch from other sources and still I get the error. I have uninstalled and reinstalled MOO3 and still get the error. From what I gather a lot of people are getting errors.

Lets face it, if they can't even make a patch that will install, the game is hopeless.

Atrocities

June 11th, 2003, 01:38 AM

Ok, I get it to install and presto it updates.

THEY NEVER FIXED THE FUZZY FONTS

Second, does any one understand that F-ed Up opening? I mean it seems to me that they had no clue as to how to open the game so they invented something that made absolutely no sense at all.

For the record, when that happnes, you might as well as forget the rest of the game; it's trash as well.

The patch FIXED NOTHING of importance. NOTHING that mattered. The patch is NOTHING!!!!!

I mean this when I say it, they should fire everyone who was involved with the game and start over. Publish an apology and refund peoples money.

eddieballgame

June 11th, 2003, 03:55 AM

Originally posted by Atrocities:
Here is a direct quote from the MOO3 site about how to install the new patch. NOTE: the patch does not install correctly.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />To install the patch: Download and unzip the file. In the directory with the unzipped files, run the "Install Moo3 Patch.exe" to install the patch. It will move the files to their appropriate location and update the registry.Do any of you understand this? Unzip the file: Ok, Run the "Install Moo3 Patch.exe:" Ok. About a third of the way through the install, it errors out. This occurs each and every GD time I try it. I have even downloaded the patch from other sources and still I get the error. I have uninstalled and reinstalled MOO3 and still get the error. From what I gather a lot of people are getting errors.

Lets face it, if they can't even make a patch that will install, the game is hopeless.<hr /></blockquote>The Patch was quick to download & EASY to install per instuctions. This patch also made this game close to a classic. Without wasting my time revealing all the improvements, just visit the MOO3 websites for all the details.

narf poit chez BOOM

June 11th, 2003, 04:05 AM

i don't have the game, but i'm downloading the patch to look at the readme file. if it looks good, i might buy the game.

Fyron

June 11th, 2003, 06:21 AM

The Patch was quick to download & EASY to install per instuctions. As they always are...

Phoenix-D

June 11th, 2003, 07:16 AM

"The Patch was quick to download & EASY to install per instuctions."

Uh-huh. How come the person you responded to couldn't get it to work then?

eddieballgame

June 11th, 2003, 09:19 AM

Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
"The Patch was quick to download & EASY to install per instuctions."

Uh-huh. How come the person you responded to couldn't get it to work then?Why you asking me? You should be asking him. I think I read somewhere that he returned his cd. (maybe he forgot he needed an installed program to patch, I DON"T KNOW!) Personnaly I don't care, I just stated a fact. Why is it ok to spew nonsense about a game , but not ok to disagree about said nonsense? (btw, "nonsense" is my opinion http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )

Atrocities

June 11th, 2003, 10:06 AM

Originally posted by eddieballgame:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
"The Patch was quick to download & EASY to install per instuctions."

Uh-huh. How come the person you responded to couldn't get it to work then?Why you asking me? You should be asking him. I think I read somewhere that he returned his cd. (maybe he forgot he needed an installed program to patch, I DON"T KNOW!) Personnaly I don't care, I just stated a fact. Why is it ok to spew nonsense about a game , but not ok to disagree about said nonsense? (btw, "nonsense" is my opinion http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )<hr /></blockquote>Friend, the patch that I downloaded was missing files. I had to download it four separate times and finally to get the whole thing I had to download it directly from MOO3 site. Ya I know, anything worth getting is best gotten from the developer. I have never had problems before and can only speculate that my problem was a fluke. Never the less, I did get the patch and yes it did install rather easily. Again as they should. That discussion is now over. On to the Game it�s self.

The game in my humble opinion is actually quite worthless and that is why I chose to uninstall it and send back the disks in peaces. QS, or now the blame is being shifted to Atari (?), got my money and in return ran laughing to the bank. I feel that it is only appropriate that I return their POS game to them and spread the word about how truly awful MOO3 actually is. And I do know what it is I am critiquing friend, one horribly implemented game that just happened to be named Master Of Orion 3.

[ June 11, 2003, 09:55: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

Atrocities

June 11th, 2003, 10:09 AM

Originally posted by eddieballgame:

. This patch also made this game close to a classic. Without wasting my time revealing all the improvements, just visit the MOO3 websites for all the details.Your right, this patch did in my opinion make the game a classic. A Classic what I will not post, but never the less it is most assuredly a classic. I just wish they would have fixed the fonts.

I do not mean to offend you, but IMHO MOO3 is not a good game.

[ June 11, 2003, 10:43: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

Atrocities

June 11th, 2003, 10:13 AM

Originally posted by Captain Jean Luc Le Grand Chat:
Fair comment Atrocities but I couldn't resist a dig at my Chief Engineer from the TSSS Phong's HEad.

What is GalCiv like then?GalCiv is a fun game that I would recommend to any one. I really enjoy playing it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I think that GalCiv and SEIV are two seperate games, and both are well suited to players. Now if they could just combine them, oooweee, that would be a game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Growltigger

June 11th, 2003, 10:21 AM

Hrothgar, thanks for your response.

GalCiv sounds interesting. How does the fleet combat work? is it a case of you getting a message that your 10 destroyers have had a fight with a couple of alien cruisers and have lost 3 ships or something like that. Other than technology, can you affect the combat in any way (like using the formations in SEIV)?

Does Galciv have ground combat? and how do the graphics compare to SEIV?

Given that I get little time to play multiplayer, a good AI game designed for single player sounds grand

Atrocities

June 11th, 2003, 11:04 AM

Originally posted by Captain Jean Luc Le Grand Chat:
Hrothgar, thanks for your response.

GalCiv sounds interesting. How does the fleet combat work? is it a case of you getting a message that your 10 destroyers have had a fight with a couple of alien cruisers and have lost 3 ships or something like that. Other than technology, can you affect the combat in any way (like using the formations in SEIV)?

Does Galciv have ground combat? and how do the graphics compare to SEIV?

Given that I get little time to play multiplayer, a good AI game designed for single player sounds grandGalCiv combat occurs during normal game play. Your ships encounter enemy ships and there is a face off. You watch it as it unfolds on the normal game screen. The ships are destoryed, but all you see is just one of your ships, regardless of how many are in the fleet, and one of the enemy ships, same applying.

When the battle is over, either your ships are still there, aside from the ones lost, or they are not in which case you lost the battle. The combat is not all that great, but it is designed that way to give the player a board game feel. I happen to think it works well.

GalCiv is not multiplayer, and the AI's seem to do well in keeping you going. The Metaverse (sp) is a good way to challenge yourself against other players by downloading hteir game style and essencially playing agaisnt them.

All in all I think GalCiv is a damn fine game and I hope you do buy it. But compared to SeIV, most players will find it kinda boring after a game or two.

Hrothgar

June 11th, 2003, 11:42 AM

Atrocities covered space combat well. As for ground combat, first, there's no bombardment from space. Troop ships must land soldiers in order to take a planet [altho there may be, and I think there are, planet-destroying weapons at high tech levels. I haven't played in a while--busy getting ready to leave the country and mostly playing only SEIV when I have time], which they can't do unless your combat ships have eliminated any screen of defensive ships which may be present. So you order the troop ship[s] to attack, and a little screen comes up showing the relative strengths of the attacker and defender, with a variable which causes the result number to be cycling onscreen 'til you hit the attack button. It's as abstract as the space combat, and, other than bringing the numbers and researching stuff to make your troops better, there's nothing you can do to effect the outcome. But, as I noted, the focus of the game is on higher level decision making, so I guess tactical nuances would be superfluous. In the end, players always claim they want this or that detail, but, if they're all implemented, the game becomes lost under the weight of the minutia. No doubt, if you want tactical refinements, GalCiv will NOT be your cup of tea, but it does what it does very well, and it has a lot of flavor despite the tactical abstraction. I think I remember reading on the board there that a demo is planned--it may even be out now. If it's a decent demo, then downloading it and playing it would be the best way to decide if you want to shell out the bucks.

Fyron

June 11th, 2003, 09:23 PM

In the end, players always claim they want this or that detail, but, if they're all implemented, the game becomes lost under the weight of the minutia. SE4 does not seem lost under the weight of the minutia...

eddieballgame

June 12th, 2003, 02:05 AM

Originally posted by Atrocities:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by eddieballgame:

. This patch also made this game close to a classic. Without wasting my time revealing all the improvements, just visit the MOO3 websites for all the details.Your right, this patch did in my opinion make the game a classic. A Classic what I will not post, but never the less it is most assuredly a classic. I just wish they would have fixed the fonts.

I do not mean to offend you, but IMHO MOO3 is not a good game.<hr /></blockquote>No offense taken, there are many, many "games" that are liked & disliked by one & all. If I had just "listened" only to negative reviews of certain programs, I would certainly have missed out what was to me some very good gaming. Anyways, Go Redsox! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Phoenix-D

June 12th, 2003, 02:13 AM

"Why is it ok to spew nonsense about a game , but not ok to disagree about said nonsense? (btw, "nonsense" is my opinion )"

Hint: just because you don't have a problem with something doesn't mean problems don't exist.

That bit Mechcommander 2 in the butt for example. It was buggy and slow as heck on some machines, fine on others..even lower powered ones. But since a lot of people refused to belive those with better computers could be having problems, they just laughed, and the people having problems returned the game or got pissed.

Which meant that the idioticly simple fix for those problems didn't get widely spread. The problem was TWO small files that weren't supposed to be there. Delete them, and it went away. By the time word got around though, most of the players were gone.

Atrocities

June 12th, 2003, 11:04 AM

Ya I remember when Tribes 2 came out, the backlash and negativity about the game cost Dynamix is company.

The problem was, and might be for MOO3 as well, was the pressure from fans and corporate overlords was to get the game out ASAP with the attitude that we can fix the problems on the fly in patches. A truly bad philosophy that often more than is the driving force behind game design and marketing.

Dynamix was a company full of revolutionary programmers who loved the game they were making. If people would have READ the requirements for the game before buying it, then perhaps all of the BS could have been avoided. Tribes 2 is a wonderful game, but many Tribes 1 fans never gave it a chance.

The thing about MOO3 though is that it should have been at least as good as MOO2. Hell BOTF was based off of MOO2 and it was a great game. (Although not at first warmly received by fans with to high of expectations.)

I love the Galaxy map system in MOO3, and wish that other 4x developers would follow that concept.

One thing to know is if you compare SEIV to other 4X games you will see that Aaron focused the majority of the available game area on the System map and very little on the Galaxy map. He used icons instead of menus, and his pop up windows all have a basic symmetry to them. Everything flows together well, and logically.

Moo3's interface was claustrophobic at best, nicely colored but with bad fonts. I liked a lot of that were included in MOO3, but over all the lack of ease of use and the feeling of always being trapped in the menus ruined the game for me.

I hated the fact that there were no right click menus, and every time I clicked on a fleet that damned "Do you want disband the fleet" window popped up.

Combine the fact that there were no easy ways to do anything in MOO3 really tanked the game. I love how easy it is in SEIV to build and send a colony ship to a specific planet. In MOO3 that was virtually impossible.

I loved how I can easily and simply research new technologies, design ships, and control my planetary construction ques. MOO3 was far to complicated and did not allow for the freedom needed in order to give the player a sense of control.

The SitRep was flat out atrocious. It was neither intuitive nor helpful. The LOG in SEIV is very helpful and intuitive by contrast.

Over all, MOO3 had a lot of great ideas, but poor implantation and questionable design choices really undermined the entire game. For that I am very sorry, but what can one do? Either learn how to play it, or do what I did and give up on it.

[ June 12, 2003, 10:06: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

Loser

June 12th, 2003, 12:58 PM

ATTENTION MoO3 CRITICS: Could the unpatchable (intentional) "flaws" in the game not be summed up as "They tried to make a micromanagement free 4X game."?

minipol

June 12th, 2003, 12:59 PM

Originally posted by Atrocities:
Hell BOTF was based off of MOO2 and it was a great game. (Although not at first warmly received by fans with to high of expectations.)
I liked BOTF too. I never really understood every bodys gripes. It seems to me that nowadays, when 1 person starts whining about a game, it's automatically true and it spreads like a virus. A lot of people seem to find it a sport to bash programmers. True, a lot of games are released prematurely. I remember Daggerfall. Bugged like hell ( it was actually 1 big bug with some game in there ) but i liked it and i played it.

Roanon

June 12th, 2003, 02:19 PM

Originally posted by Loser:
ATTENTION MoO3 CRITICS: Could the unpatchable (intentional) "flaws" in the game not be summed up as "They tried to make a micromanagement free 4X game."?Problem is they created a totally management-free game. And labelled the so created Sim-Galaxy game as "strategy game". Apart from most people not liking sim-type games, this (intentional) non-fulfilling of promises and expectations is causing the many irate responses and attacks aimed at QS and Atari.

Would they have sold the game as what it really is, they wouldn't have gotten so much heat. Well, and about a tenth of the sales also, but thats another story.

Erax

June 12th, 2003, 02:58 PM

There's a reason why most SEIV gamers hated MoO3. We all love micromanagement (see the 'SE IV code' thread) and SEIV delivers it to us in grand style.

This does not mean that we represent the sum total of the strategy space gamer community. There must be many people out there who want to conquer the galaxy in two-minute, five-clicks-of-the-mouse turns.

Sim games have their own market. If Atari had aimed at them and not at, well, gamers like us, they might have had pretty good sales on MoO3. We would still hate it but the game wouldn't be such a fiasco.

That having been said, it is never a good idea to pull a gentre switch on your public. It is better to re-release the same game with better graphics (anyone remember Terror from the Deep ?) than to give your public something they do not want and weren't expecting.

eddieballgame

June 13th, 2003, 09:26 AM

Originally posted by Chief Engineer Erax:
There's a reason why most SEIV gamers hated MoO3. We all love micromanagement (see the 'SE IV code' thread) and SEIV delivers it to us in grand style.

This does not mean that we represent the sum total of the strategy space gamer community. There must be many people out there who want to conquer the galaxy in two-minute, five-clicks-of-the-mouse turns.

Sim games have their own market. If Atari had aimed at them and not at, well, gamers like us, they might have had pretty good sales on MoO3. We would still hate it but the game wouldn't be such a fiasco.

That having been said, it is never a good idea to pull a gentre switch on your public. It is better to re-release the same game with better graphics (anyone remember Terror from the Deep ?) than to give your public something they do not want and weren't expecting.Sorry to repeat myself, but MOO3 has more than enough micromanaging available if one so desires. MOO3 is also a very good strategy game, as there are numerous & constant decisions one can be involved in. This game is also moddable to suit one's taste in many areas. Where MOO3 really excels is in Online multiplay. Something this "genre" has been less then impressive. It is not perfect, but it is very good.
I know, I play it, it is fun! I also like SEIV, a very impressive program. Much to appreciate thanks to the people who play & the designer who listens.
I am hopeful MOO3's fan support will be as impressive as SEIV's is. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

narf poit chez BOOM

June 13th, 2003, 09:46 AM

i'm not a fan of micromanagement, like it sometimes, not others. and i like simcity, there's control, just not direct control. got 153 eq once by building a city of squares on a flat map. each square contained a six by six area. very effecient. then there's finding a good design on a random map without bulldozing anything up or down. you sorta have to flow with the terrain. i'm getting a mayoral urge again.
botf - birth of the federation? is there a demo for that? so far, i don't like the galciv demo. although it could be that i can't figure out how the turns work my survey ship seems to be able to travel forever as long as i click on it again. and the demo makes me feel crowded, i don't think you really can play it with only one ai race.

[ June 13, 2003, 09:04: Message edited by: narf poit chez BOOM ]

Suicide Junkie

June 13th, 2003, 03:48 PM

each square contained a six by six area.That sounds very inefficient...
You do realize that the way you had it, each tile of buildable land was serviced by no less than 2 road segments?
Your city repeated every 7x7 squares, so for every 49 squares of land, you spent... 7+6 on roads, or 26.5%

Things to do:
- Eliminate many of the cross-roads, to form longer rectangular zones. Theoretical minimum land spent on roads vs total serviced area = 14.3%
- spread the zones to SEVEN by seven or higher...
(2x2 and 3x3 buildings can "ooze out" over the center area no problem) You can also place the support structures for your city in these areas that are unserviced by roads, such as; water pumps and power plants, and all manner of the multi-square buildings you place yourself.
- For THE ULTIMATE in zone density, use only subways and subway stations. No roads, rails or any form of trasnportation except underground.
For each 1 tile of subway station, you get 24 tiles of zonable land. The Station's service areas can be made to tile a plane perfectly, thus costing you only 4% of your space for transportation instead of the 26.5% you were spending on that 6x6 grid city.

This gets you a 30% increase in usable land area!

As a side bonus, during a firestorm, the subway city can be easily protected...
Just place a single police unit on each subway station that is in danger...
Any area that burns down will be rebuilt by the citizens, since there is a continuous grid of power available from the rest of the city.

[ June 13, 2003, 14:54: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

CNCRaymond

June 13th, 2003, 05:33 PM

Originally posted by eddieballgame:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Chief Engineer Erax:
There's a reason why most SEIV gamers hated MoO3. We all love micromanagement (see the 'SE IV code' thread) and SEIV delivers it to us in grand style.

This does not mean that we represent the sum total of the strategy space gamer community. There must be many people out there who want to conquer the galaxy in two-minute, five-clicks-of-the-mouse turns.

Sim games have their own market. If Atari had aimed at them and not at, well, gamers like us, they might have had pretty good sales on MoO3. We would still hate it but the game wouldn't be such a fiasco.

That having been said, it is never a good idea to pull a gentre switch on your public. It is better to re-release the same game with better graphics (anyone remember Terror from the Deep ?) than to give your public something they do not want and weren't expecting.Sorry to repeat myself, but MOO3 has more than enough micromanaging available if one so desires. MOO3 is also a very good strategy game, as there are numerous & constant decisions one can be involved in. This game is also moddable to suit one's taste in many areas. Where MOO3 really excels is in Online multiplay. Something this "genre" has been less then impressive. It is not perfect, but it is very good.
I know, I play it, it is fun! I also like SEIV, a very impressive program. Much to appreciate thanks to the people who play & the designer who listens.
I am hopeful MOO3's fan support will be as impressive as SEIV's is. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <hr /></blockquote>Yes, I have to agree, MOO3 seems to really have focused a lot of attention into MP and that is a welcome change. I think that might have been the over all idea of the developers. They focused all of the game toward MP and less toward SP and that is why SP seems so under developed and poorly implemented.

I bought the game and really bashed it hard, but now, given time to play it, I have relized that it is an interesting game, no where near as good as SEIV or GalCiv though. The area that MOO3 shines in is its MP.

CNCRaymond

June 13th, 2003, 05:42 PM

Originally posted by minipol:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Atrocities:
Hell BOTF was based off of MOO2 and it was a great game. (Although not at first warmly received by fans with to high of expectations.)
I liked BOTF too. I never really understood every bodys gripes. It seems to me that nowadays, when 1 person starts whining about a game, it's automatically true and it spreads like a virus. A lot of people seem to find it a sport to bash programmers. True, a lot of games are released prematurely. I remember Daggerfall. Bugged like hell ( it was actually 1 big bug with some game in there ) but i liked it and i played it.<hr /></blockquote>I loved Birth Of The Federation and still play it to this day. Hard core Trekers from the old Civ forum formed several pro=BOTF forums and spread the word about how great the game would be. I bought it and enjoyed right off the shelf. It did have some problems with memorie leaks and crashed often in multiplayer at MS game zone.

I remember reading at the BOTF forum when the developers told the fans to "F-OFF" and from that point on no new patches were released and Microprose moved on. I think Hasbro bought them and offically they do not recognize BOTF any more. Also Activition bought out all of the rights to make Star Trek games and that combined with other factors killed any chance for a BOTF II.

I loved BOTF, and even though all of the pro-BOTF forums like TOP, TGN, FSN, and others bashed the hell out of the game at first, most came around, too late to make a differance, and began supporting the game and the mod community. Which I might add did a great job making a few great mods.

eddieballgame

June 13th, 2003, 09:36 PM

Yes, I have to agree, MOO3 seems to really have focused a lot of attention into MP and that is a welcome change. I think that might have been the over all idea of the developers. They focused all of the game toward MP and less toward SP and that is why SP seems so under developed and poorly implemented.

I bought the game and really bashed it hard, but now, given time to play it, I have relized that it is an interesting game, no where near as good as SEIV or GalCiv though. The area that MOO3 shines in is its MP.[/QB]Try MOO3 v1.2---the challenge is to win on "easy"! In my opinion MOO3 shines also as SP, much more to offer then MOO2 & now more challenging. The changes to the AI & Screens are wonderful.

[ June 13, 2003, 20:38: Message edited by: eddieballgame ]

Fyron

June 13th, 2003, 10:17 PM

MOO3 is not a great game, and will never be a great game. It will at best be an average game. MOO and MOO2 were great games. MOO3 is a shameful successor to the MOO series.

thorfrog

June 13th, 2003, 10:44 PM

Can't believe the designers of MOO3 released this garbage. Space Empires rules. Even BOTF was better.

eddieballgame

June 13th, 2003, 11:54 PM

Originally posted by atomannj:
Can't believe the designers of MOO3 released this garbage. Space Empires rules. Even BOTF was better.It seems to me that you & Fyron need at least 2 things, a life & a clue. You maybe able to convince yourselves of what you say, but certainly not the ones who disagree with you. So why not get over it? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ June 13, 2003, 22:55: Message edited by: eddieballgame ]

Phoenix-D

June 14th, 2003, 12:03 AM

eddie: same applies to you..and arguing that way with Fyron is pointless. He's entire too patient, you'll just go around and around for 30 pages, getting into increasingly obscure and off-topic references.

narf poit chez BOOM

June 14th, 2003, 12:21 AM

how do you get around the expense of subways?

eddieballgame

June 14th, 2003, 12:22 AM

Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
eddie: same applies to you..and arguing that way with Fyron is pointless. He's entire too patient, you'll just go around and around for 30 pages, getting into increasingly obscure and off-topic references.Good advice, I concur. Sometimes I do get a little excited when I am "defending" something I consider worthy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Do not mean to offend or show disrespect. Thanks

Ragnarok

June 14th, 2003, 12:24 AM

Edit: Post doesn't apply as I was too slow. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ June 13, 2003, 23:25: Message edited by: Ragnarok ]

Roanon

June 14th, 2003, 12:32 AM

It rather looks like the majority has the same opinion like Fyron and Atomannj. So YOU better get over it, Eddie... and personal attacks on someone just because he has a different opinion than yours are just not appropriate here.

A clickfeast at best, the unfriendly user interface and non-influencable stupid AI decisions for what is supposed to be MY empire spoils the fun for me like for most strategy game players. I like being able to (micro)manage everything in my empire, but that doesn't mean that I like doing it with a dozen mouseclicks for each simple decision, and often even in vain because it is altered back the very next turn by this supid not disengagable AI. Plus plus plus - I too think the game is junk at its finest. My opinion as someone who likes strategy games.

Of course, anyone who likes sim-type games, where you do only the most basic things and the rest is taken out of your hands, will think differently. I don't have a problem with it. I only have a problem with people luring strategy gamers into the trap of buying this sim-game. Misery likes company, or why? Accept that what you like is not what everyone likes. And the rapid price decay plus Ebay overcrowded with cheap offers shows what the majority really thinks.

Atrocities

June 14th, 2003, 03:07 AM

Hey Roanon I don't think he was attacking anyone, but merely posting his heart felt opinion about the topic in much the same way we all do when we feel compassionate about the subject. Sometimes in posting we think and post some things that would be best left unposted. But those involved in this incident are all adult enough to take it in stride just like water off a ducks back.

I respect any person who has the dedication and character to say "hey I don't agree with you."

Oposite opinions often lead to great debates and strong bonds of respect for one another. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ June 14, 2003, 02:13: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

Suicide Junkie

June 14th, 2003, 05:17 AM

Originally posted by narf poit chez BOOM:
how do you get around the expense of subways?Well, naturally, you build up more slowly since they cost more. Let the game run at max speed while you do your thing.

Also, you can start with a regular road city to get a fast start, and once the tax money starts rolling in, just switch over to the subways for new construction and slowly retrofit the "old town" when you feel like it.

Raging Deadstar

June 14th, 2003, 08:20 AM

Hmm the BIG Question is has eddieballgame played multiplayer SEIV? Thats where Space empires comes into a league of it's own! Nothing beats the thrill of plotting your downright dirty and scheming revenge on your best friends empire....Now excuse me but i have a cloacked sun destroyer to dispatch http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Will

June 14th, 2003, 08:37 AM

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by narf poit chez BOOM:
how do you get around the expense of subways?Well, naturally, you build up more slowly since they cost more. Let the game run at max speed while you do your thing.

Also, you can start with a regular road city to get a fast start, and once the tax money starts rolling in, just switch over to the subways for new construction and slowly retrofit the "old town" when you feel like it.<hr /></blockquote>When I used to play SimCity 2000, I would start by building a "spiral" city. Start at the edge, building roads in a spiral so that the usable land is in six-tile wide strips, in a spiral all the way to the center. At first everything is mixed, but as the game progresses, it is mainly commerce in the middle, residential surrounding it, and industrial along the outside. A bit of everything is mixed to prevent local economic colapses. Then I would slowly retrofit around the spiral to the all-subway system (starting from the center), and would begin constructing acrologies along the outside. I forget what my population eventually reached, but it was over the highest one I found on the 'Net by about 200k. I thought that was cool for about a day, then promptly got bored with it, and never played again.

ObMoO3: Haven't bought it... don't really plan to anytime in the near future. Frankly, too many bad reviews on the interface, design, and general buginess. Besides, I don't have as much time for games anymore, I still have SE3, SE4, started into Dungeon Odyssey, StarFury is coming out soon, SE5 is in the works, I have CounterStrike lying around for a frag-fest once in a while, and the somehow always-addictive Solitaire, Minesweeper, and Pinball. Maybe I'll pick it up sometime when I've graduated.

eddieballgame

June 14th, 2003, 08:37 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Roanon:
[QB]It rather looks like the majority has the same opinion like Fyron and Atomannj. So YOU better get over it, Eddie... and personal attacks on someone just because he has a different opinion than yours are just not appropriate here.[Quote]

I too like strategy games, I am a rated NM in Chess, a LM in Bridge, & am in the process of learning & studying what I consider the greatest strategy game of all-GO, as us westerners call it. (Igo, Weichi, & Baduk as it is known in the Asian community). I, of course, also enjoy many pc "strategy" games as well.
I just get a little annoyed when a certain program has been so misrepresented. MOO3 v1.2 makes your comments sound very uninformed. Just the facts as I see them. It was never my intent to "sell" MOO3, just shine the light on what I had considered some "angry" analysis. It was certainly not my intent to upset anyone.
As far as "the majority has the same opinion", I think that depends on what forums you frequent. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Anyways, Go Redsox!!!

eddieballgame

June 14th, 2003, 08:42 AM

Originally posted by Senator Raging Deadstar:
Hmm the BIG Question is has eddieballgame played multiplayer SEIV? Thats where Space empires comes into a league of it's own! Nothing beats the thrill of plotting your downright dirty and scheming revenge on your best friends empire....Now excuse me but i have a cloacked sun destroyer to dispatch http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif No I haven't,BUT, am very interested in trying it. The program looks awesome, very detailed. Question---How is Hotseat, have you played it that way? How is multiplay Online, is it similar to what STARS! was. Thanks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ June 14, 2003, 07:43: Message edited by: eddieballgame ]

Raging Deadstar

June 14th, 2003, 08:47 AM

After all this complaining and arguing over one game. I decided to check out the website and just see what it was like. Then if i was remotely impressed might download a demo of it, make up my own mind about it (if it doesn't have one i havn't found it, but that will be revealed later)

Of coursec i do a quick search, clcik on the homepages link (http://moo3.quicksilver.com/) and.....
IT DOESN'T WORK LOL http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Might be my connection but i have tried connecting and disconnecting to give moo3 a fair chance to at least see what people are complaining and arguing about. But, sorry to say it, the MOO3 site is less reliable than Fyron's forums http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif , which also haven't been working for me recently! *hint*

If anyone would care to point me to a site with some info about MOO3 and some screenshots etc i'd be most obliged, although after all the complaints i'm worried that i might have to play SEIV for another night straight to get this Moo3 idea out my head, i feel myself converting to the darkside http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Anyway, i need caffeine, it's been a while i pulled an all nighter on SEIV, although i can remember doing it on the demo of SEII, that was a long time ago. But after listening to most people i'm thinking that this MOO3 game isn't going to match up to Space Empires http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

*The dillusioned ramblings of a sleep deprived 16 year old* http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Raging Deadstar

June 14th, 2003, 08:53 AM

I'm currently in a Hot Seat Game right now with one of my friends. It's a great way to play as theres no waiting for the upload of turns, but you must be prepared to have your friends entertained while you do your turns. Of course i have played a game where we both just watched each other so we knew exactly what each other was doing and it was one large counter move after another, it was a fun game! But i prefer the feeling of suprise when you send your fleet through an enemy wormhole http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

atari_eric

June 14th, 2003, 09:43 AM

Originally posted by deccan:
(True Fact: I was browsing around the MOO3 forums earlier today and one of the programmers was saying that they couldn't fix the part of the diplomacy system that generates the famously cryptic speeches made by AI controlled empires because it's a black box that nobody understood anymore.)
Okay, I am a Games Programmer, and this is just wrong. It is one thing to "inherit" another game company's code and not make heads or tails of it; it is quite another to generate your own code and declare it a "black box" of confusion. How this was tolerated is anyone's guess (I know how it got there - someone here mentioned a lack of leadership. I've seen someone posit that organizing programmers is like herding cats...) I guess there were no "bosses" to punish this sort of behavior...

This concept, to me, is just infathomable. I would think it better (junior as I am) to delete and rewrite from pseudocode rather than keep such a malfunctioning piece of code in a project.

Fyron

June 15th, 2003, 01:02 AM

Originally posted by eddieballgame:
It seems to me that you & Fyron need at least 2 things, a life & a clue. You maybe able to convince yourselves of what you say, but certainly not the ones who disagree with you. So why not get over it? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I will ask you not to flame me (or anyone else) again... I most certainly have a clue (and more than one clue at that), and a life.

Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
eddie: same applies to you..and arguing that way with Fyron is pointless. He's entire too patient, you'll just go around and around for 30 pages, getting into increasingly obscure and off-topic references.Bah. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Originally posted by Raging Deadstar:
But, sorry to say it, the MOO3 site is less reliable than Fyron's forums , which also haven't been working for me recently! *hint*
Would you care to contribute money to the Get Fyron Better Web Hosting Fund? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Originally posted by atari_eric:
This concept, to me, is just infathomable. I would think it better (junior as I am) to delete and rewrite from pseudocode rather than keep such a malfunctioning piece of code in a project. I'll second that motion...

[ June 14, 2003, 12:09: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Loser

June 16th, 2003, 05:01 PM

Originally posted by atari_eric:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by deccan:
(True Fact: I was browsing around the MOO3 forums earlier today and one of the programmers was saying that they couldn't fix the part of the diplomacy system that generates the famously cryptic speeches made by AI controlled empires because it's a black box that nobody understood anymore.)
...
This concept, to me, is just infathomable. I would think it better (junior as I am) to delete and rewrite from pseudocode rather than keep such a malfunctioning piece of code in a project.<hr /></blockquote>Oh yeah, I've been there. Sitting in the University computer lab with my prof.

So we'll run the debugger, right?
Yes, please go ahead.
Okay. Here you can see the involved variables: their names should clearly indicate their function. The code is commented, I think...
Yes, yes. Go ahead
so I start stepping through the code at the troubled place
There. Did you see that. What happened there
Prof pauses for twenty seconds looking intently at the screen, then motions me out of the way.
Prof spends three minutes poking at the code and the debugger. Sits back and again stares at the screen, this time for a whole minute.
Um... well?
Delete it all. Start over. I'll give you one extra day. Have it in my office by midnight or take a zero.

solops

June 16th, 2003, 09:55 PM

I just started playing MOO3 with the code patch. I never tried it pre-patch. Its not bad. Had it been released like this its reception would have been much better. It still has blemishes and a few really bad items, but it is now a likeable game, I think. If you turn off ALL of the AI Governors you can get all of the micromanagement and most of the control you might want, which is how I play.

Fyron

June 16th, 2003, 11:46 PM

Too bad it still has a really poor interface...

Wardad

June 17th, 2003, 01:43 AM

An interesting unfixed bug:

"If you cede control (to AI) of a space combat choosing to assault the planet, and have both troop ships and a planet destroyer present, then if you win the combat the AI will unload your troops onto the planet AND destroy it."

Way to go AI!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
What would Ruatha do?

******************************************
and another interesting bug:

If you go for a 5x victory you have to be really careful that no planet revolts, while you research the Last X, else you will lose, because somehow the new empire(emerging from your revolting colony) gets credited the 5x win.

Is it the ATARIan 5X bug? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

*****************************************
and another interesting bug:

�When transports are destroyed but their fleet wins the battle, the troops on those ships are still able to land.�

It must be gravity landing those troops without the ships. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

[ June 17, 2003, 01:00: Message edited by: Wardad ]

Loser

June 17th, 2003, 04:05 AM

Originally posted by Wardad:
An interesting unfixed bug:

"If you cede control (to AI) of a space combat choosing to assault the planet, and have both troop ships and a planet destroyer present, then if you win the combat the AI will unload your troops onto the planet AND destroy it."Genocide Quotient
G*: Everything burns!

solops

June 17th, 2003, 03:46 PM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Too bad it still has a really poor interface...Yeah, kludgy in several places, but not quite as bad as I had been led to believe. Could have been better, much better.

Will

June 18th, 2003, 01:10 AM

The Tao of Programming, Book 4, Section 1:
A program should be light and agile, its subroutines connected like a string of pearls. The spirit and intent of the program should be retained throughout. There should be neither too little or too much, neither needless loops nor useless variables, neither lack of structure nor overwhelming rigidity.

A program should follow the `Law of Least Astonishment'. What is this law? It is simply that the program should always respond to the user in the way that astonishes him least.

A program, no matter how complex, should act as a single unit. The program should be directed by the logic within rather than by outward appearances.

If the program fails in these requirements, it will be in a state of disorder and confusion. The only way to correct this is to rewrite the program.