My AI Design Q&A [Archive] - .com.unity Forums

cybersol

June 11th, 2003, 10:55 PM

I am in the process of developing my first AI for the unmodded game. My first attempt is a normal (no special racial trait) race. Starting with nothing between the *Begin* and *End* lines of the AI files to make the race from scratch. To learn, I am mining the top 14 AI�s from death match 2 for ideas and insights. I have searched through the forum for many topics related to AI design and read a lot of information, but I still have some questions.

If you design AI�s, then maybe you can help. Reading through AI Text Files Tips & Hints (http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=003981;p=2) I noticed many of the bugs mentioned there that seem to have been fixed, but I still wonder about some of them. Things that seem to be fixed, please tell me if I am wrong: boarding, kamikaze, and troop transports now work as expected; recon satellite no longer produces forever. Things that still don�t work, again tell me if I am wrong: AI still doesn�t use recyclers or resource converters; still not a good idea to use mine sweepers and cloaks together (though it works for already marked mine fields on the mine sweeper type) ; planet based fleet training still not effective.

1) Can the AI now effectively use cloaking abilities on Space Yard Ships? MB uses cloak, Mephisto still does not, and Rollo doesn�t even use Space Yard Ships.
2) If I use the same ship name (and type) but different weapons for a light cruiser than a destroyer for instance, then I notice the AI often thinks the destroyer is newer and the light cruiser is obsolete. I thought this only happened after the dreadnaught class was reached?
3) Is there anyway to stop the AI from trying to retrofit to a �newer� Version of a ship that is in fact the same as the old Version? This results in ships being wasted just sitting there and trying to be retrofitted but failing because the ships are identical.
4) I don�t suppose anyone knows a trick (without modding) to have the AI specifically call for normal armor without any special abilities?
5) AI_CONSTRUCTION_VEHICLES.TXT. It seems in my experience that you get a more even distribution of ships if you add multiple copies of the exact same entry (colony ships in exploration for example). For example, build some colony ships, build some attack ships, build colony ships again to replace, build support ships, build colony ships again to replace, etc. My guess is that if the hardcode is at entry 12 in this file, then it goes to 13 when it finishes 12 without looking at 1-11 again until the next time it arrives at them by going around one at a time through the loop. How do you think it works?

I�m sure I will have more questions later. Any assistance you can provide will be much appreciated.

[ July 18, 2003, 19:39: Message edited by: cybersol ]

JLS

June 12th, 2003, 12:31 AM

I am mining the top 14 AI�s from death match 2 for ideas and insights. Agreed, I also have learnt a lot from MB, the Master with the AI.

boarding, kamikaze, and troop transports now work as expected; recon satellite no longer produces forever.
Boarding, not just right for the AI yet.
Kamikazi and Troop Assaults, work for the AI with awesome results http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Good question on the Recon Sat, I have noticed more then I have Planed in for, that the AI will put in a group. It may be better to ere with a few more, then none. Experts may elaborate, more then I.
Things that still don�t work, again tell me if I am wrong: AI still doesn�t use recyclers or resource converters The AI does not use Converters.
Recycelers, the AI may not be smart enough here either. I don't use this for my AI. If you use this, put with a Colony that builds a yard.
still not a good idea to use mine sweepers and cloaks together
The AI does not sweep the correct minefield at the at the correct time, anyway.

planet based fleet training still not effective Yes, try to have Ship and Fleet Training Facility with your Supply Generation. Or just for SY Colonies. Military and Construction Colonies may be a resupply base if you have a SY present.

~~~~~

(1) Why would you want the AI to invest the Resources for a cloaking BSY, as opposed to a shield and PD?
(2) With the same name for example (Attack Ship) , the AI usually will pick the upper Designs best and largest design to build..

(3) Sounds like one for the Experts like MB, Mephisto, Tampa Bay Gamer and Forum Moderators .
As I recall, the AI ship hangs around for a short time if cannot Retrofit, plus the AI gets a neat little message it can't read http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
I will test this, and get back to you on this if know one replys http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

(4) Use the armor Armor Spaces Per One := xxxx in the design file. (for normal Armor)

(5) Great stirring question. This depends on what you want that AI to do, and thier are many ideas on this. And should be debated by many http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Inregards to Colonizers, I listen to MB's advise. Actually take all the advise form all the Players, but the Experts I mentioned above, will have the answers. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ June 12, 2003, 00:51: Message edited by: JLS ]

cybersol

June 12th, 2003, 02:28 AM

First, thanks for the response, JLS.

Originally posted by JLS:
Boarding, not just right for the AI yet. Kamikaze and Troop Assaults, work for the AI with awesome results.Can you elaborate on what is wrong with boarding? I am not using it in this AI yet, but I want to have the option in the future.

Originally posted by JLS:
Good question on the Recon Sat, I have noticed more then I have Planed in for, that the AI will put in a group. It may be better to ere with a few more, then none. Experts may elaborate, more then I.There was a really bad bug before that would produce recon satellites infinitely, but I'm sure it was fixed. Ah, history.txt fixed in 1.51.

Originally posted by JLS:
Recycelers, the AI may not be smart enough here either.I believe the problem is they do not know how to move ships over to the recycler before scrapping.

Originally posted by JLS:
(Regarding mine sweepers and cloasks).I don't see why not. I need and will test this, for both of us, I use this for 2 or 3 AI designs.Scout and Colony ships with mine sweeping and cloak died horribly without sweeping any of the mines. Mine sweepers will de-cloak for a previously marked mine field, but then they will cloak and move forward and happily die without sweeping any mines on the next warp point that has not been marked. So it sort of works for mine sweepers, but not at all for the rest.

Originally posted by JLS:
Yes, try to have as many Ship and Fleet Training Facility with your Supply Generation and or SY Colonies as Possable. Military and/or Construction Colonies are good.Ship training seem somewhat useful, but the AI doesn't move ships there intentionally, they just happen to land there by chance and get some training. Fleet training at one time was useless because the AI broke and remade fleets very often, but I have not tested if this was fixed.

Originally posted by JLS:
(1) Why would you want the AI to invest the Resources for a cloaking BSY, as opposed to a shield and PD?
(2) With the same name for example (Attack Ship), the AI usually will pick the upper Designs best and largest design to build.
(3) Sounds like one for the Experts like MB, Mephisto, Tampa Bay Gamer and Forum Moderators. As I recall, the AI ship hangs around for a short time if cannot Retrofit, plus the AI gets a neat little message it can't read. I will test this, and get back to you on this if know one replys http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
(4) Use the armor Armor Spaces Per One := xxxx in the design file. (for normal Armor)
(5) Great stirring question. This depends on what you want that AI to do, and thier are many ideas on this. And should be debated by many1) I was talking about a ship space yard not a BSY. To go in cloaked and repair crippled ships is how the AI would use it, I think. But it might mess up the yard capability when at the front line resupply depot.
2) Switched from missles CSM1 to beams DUC3, light cruiser designed turn 5, destroyer replaces turn 6. Destroyer is below light cruiser in designcreation file.
3) I have seen them try for a while, over and over.
4) If only that worked. The problem is you end up getting the highest damage resistance armor, which is scattering. But earlier you get smaller armor. Makes too comlicated to build the rest of the design to your exact specifications. Sometimes I just want Armor III and not the others.
5) How the file gets processed, and everyones experience with this, is really what I would like to know.

JLS

June 12th, 2003, 02:59 AM

Cybersol, how is it my Last edit was
June 12, 2003, 00:51: Message edited by: JLS'

And you have something different then my final post?

Your post 'posted June 12, 2003 01:28'

===

Originally posted by JLS:
The AI does not sweep the correct minefield at the at the correct time, anyway.
So would you say, if the AI does not install cloaking, do you think, Cybersol, the AI does a sufficient job, Sweeping mines for the Main AI Fleets.

The AI settings for Base se4 are Ships don't move through minefields := false

Will this not yield AI ship after ship, sacrificing itself until the Minefield is empty?

Originally posted by JLS:
Good question on the Recon Sat, I have noticed more then I have Planed in for, that the AI will put in a group. It may be better to ere with a few more, then none. Here I was lending assistance, to you. Not to make to many Recon Sats in your Vehicle build File, because to the AI SAT launcher, a Satellite is a Satellite, and it may look pretty weird having 40 or more early level Psychic or Temporal Recon sats with your AI's 100 anti -ship Satellite group. Wouldn�t you say?
Originally posted by JLS:
Yes, try to have Ship and Fleet Training Facility with your Supply Generation. Or just for SY Colonies. Military and Construction Colonies may be a resupply base if you have a SY present.
I may be misunderstanding you Cybersol, do you think the AI should make Planet Training Facilities at all in base se4?

Originally posted by Cybersol:
(4) If only that worked. The problem is you end up getting the highest damage resistance armor, which is scattering. But earlier you get smaller armor. Makes too comlicated to build the rest of the design to your exact specifications. Sometimes I just want Armor III and not the others.
Interesting Cybersol, you had the answer to your own qestion.
Now, we need the trick http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

The answer, I gave is the current way it is set up for the Base se4, default files.

In AIC the AI will place Ablative, Armor and then Emisive http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Not the fancy expensive stuff http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Cybersol, I feel, I will learn from you, regarding Base se4 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I wish you all the success http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ June 12, 2003, 04:04: Message edited by: JLS ]

Master Belisarius

June 12th, 2003, 03:41 AM

Originally posted by cybersol:
I am in the process of developing my first AI for the unmodded game. My first attempt is a normal (no special racial trait) race. Starting with nothing between the *Begin* and *End* lines of the AI files to make the race from scratch.
From scratch?? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif
It's something against my principles, I thought. Never started a Cobol program or an AI from zero!!!!

Originally posted by cybersol:

To learn, I am mining the top 14 AI’s from death match 2 for ideas and insights. I have searched through the forum for many topics related to AI design and read a lot of information, but I still have some questions.
Looks like a good approach.

Originally posted by cybersol:

If you design AI’s, then maybe you can help. Reading through AI Text Files Tips & Hints (http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=003981;p=2) I noticed many of the bugs mentioned there that seem to have been fixed, but I still wonder about some of them. Things that seem to be fixed, please tell me if I am wrong: boarding, kamikaze, and troop transports now work as expected; recon satellite no longer produces forever. Things that still don’t work, again tell me if I am wrong: AI still doesn’t use recyclers or resource converters; still not a good idea to use mine sweepers and cloaks together (though it works for already marked mine fields on the mine sweeper type) ; planet based fleet training still not effective.
Agree with your observations...

Originally posted by cybersol:

1) Can the AI now effectively use cloaking abilities on Space Yard Ships? MB uses cloak, Mephisto still does not, and Rollo doesn’t even use Space Yard Ships.
A cloaked ship can't build anything... but as you noted in your second post, I think the best use for these ships is try to recover damaged ships that can't move...
I dislike when the space yard ship build something... usually they build Defense bases in middle of nowhere, or build colony ships and send those ships to colonize planets without load population first (and then the new colony will be useless for the AI!).

Originally posted by cybersol:

2) If I use the same ship name (and type) but different weapons for a light cruiser than a destroyer for instance, then I notice the AI often thinks the destroyer is newer and the light cruiser is obsolete. I thought this only happened after the dreadnaught class was reached?
I only saw this behavior when an AI reach the DN, but maybe the trigger is that after some time without redesign a ship, the AI decide to redesign using the previous ship design with different weapon...

Originally posted by cybersol:

3) Is there anyway to stop the AI from trying to retrofit to a “newer” Version of a ship that is in fact the same as the old Version? This results in ships being wasted just sitting there and trying to be retrofitted but failing because the ships are identical.
Nope, I don't know how to do it... Think Aaron "fixed" it in several patches, but the behavior is still there.

Originally posted by cybersol:

4) I don’t suppose anyone knows a trick (without modding) to have the AI specifically call for normal armor without any special abilities?
Think you can do something like:
Misc Ability 1 Name := Armor
Misc Ability 1 Spaces Per One := 10

Or use the "Armor Spaces Per One := 10"

The problem is that considering the free space, the AI will try to use the most advanced Armor...
For example, a BC design (size 600K) with the line: Armor Spaces Per One := 60, will have 8 Scattering Armors!!

But if you put this line at the end of the Misc Abilities:
Misc Ability 11 Spaces Per One := 10
If this design still have 60K of space, then, the AI will put 1 Scattering Armor and 1 Standard Armor.

In the same way, if the ship have "free" space, the AI will complete the design using the best available Armor...

Conclusion: if you want to use a ship with lot of Standard Armors (not Scattering!), you should not research After Armor III!

Originally posted by cybersol:

5) AI_CONSTRUCTION_VEHICLES.TXT. It seems in my experience that you get a more even distribution of ships if you add multiple copies of the exact same entry (colony ships in exploration for example). For example, build some colony ships, build some attack ships, build colony ships again to replace, build support ships, build colony ships again to replace, etc. My guess is that if the hardcode is at entry 12 in this file, then it goes to 13 when it finishes 12 without looking at 1-11 again until the next time it arrives at them by going around one at a time through the loop. How do you think it works?
I think the AI always check the 1-11 every turn. My guess is that the AI always start from the number 1 in the queue and check if need to build the item or not. One after other.
For this, if the queue is very large, the AI have problems to reach the Lastest items in the queue... because always is building trying to replace the loses in the first places of the queue.

Originally posted by cybersol:

I’m sure I will have more questions later. Any assistance you can provide will be much appreciated.If I can help you, just drop me a mail.

Best Regards

JL

[ June 12, 2003, 02:58: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

Master Belisarius

June 12th, 2003, 03:55 AM

Originally posted by JLS:
I also have learnt a lot from MB, the Master with the AI.
Hey, thanks! But I just have learned from Mephisto, Alpha Kodiak, Atraikius and Rollo... Think they're more creative than me and the true "Masters".

Originally posted by JLS:
Boarding, not just right for the AI yet.
Kamikazi and Troop Assaults, work for the AI with awesome results http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Yep, but I saw the Colony ships of the Vikings board ships... and explode!
But consider that these kind of ships can be used for other purposes as auxiliary ships.

Originally posted by JLS:
The AI does not sweep the correct minefield at the at the correct time, anyway.
In my view, at least the AI does a decent job (I think!).

Originally posted by JLS:
Yes, try to have Ship and Fleet Training Facility with your Supply Generation. Or just for SY Colonies. Military and Construction Colonies may be a resupply base if you have a SY present.
Agree with you... but still will be by chance.

Originally posted by JLS:
(1) Why would you want the AI to invest the Resources for a cloaking BSY, as opposed to a shield and PD?
Good question. My oppinon is that the Armor Cloak is good because give the bonus and a little protection while cloaked. Anwyay, a lone space shipyard usually is dead meat...

Originally posted by JLS:
(2) With the same name for example (Attack Ship) , the AI usually will pick the upper Designs best and largest design to build..
Think he was talking about the rotation between designs, that at some point the AI start to do (even using the same name!).

Originally posted by JLS:
(3) Sounds like one for the Experts like MB, Mephisto, Tampa Bay Gamer and Forum Moderators .
As I recall, the AI ship hangs around for a short time if cannot Retrofit, plus the AI gets a neat little message it can't read http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
I will test this, and get back to you on this if know one replys http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
Agree with you.

Originally posted by JLS:
(4) Use the armor Armor Spaces Per One := xxxx in the design file. (for normal Armor)
Agree... but the AI will try to use the "best" available Armor (it mean, Scattered Armor if have the tech and the space).

Originally posted by JLS:
Inregards to Colonizers, I listen to MB's advise. Actually take all the advise form all the Players, but the Experts I mentioned above, will have the answers. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif [/QB]Hug, thanks! But really think that we're most the time blind, and the trial/error and exchange experiences, are the only way to find most of the answers...

cybersol

June 12th, 2003, 03:56 AM

Originally posted by JLS:
Cybersol, how is it my Last edit was
June 12, 2003, 00:51: Message edited by: JLS'

And you have something different then my final post?

Your post 'posted June 12, 2003 01:28'You made me think and go test things so much that I started to post before your edit, but finished afterwards.

Originally posted by JLS:
So would you say, if the AI does not install cloaking, do you think, Cybersol, the AI does a sufficient job, Sweeping mines for the Main AI Fleets.

The AI settings for Base se4 are Ships don't move through minefields := false
Will this not yield ship after ship, sacrificing itself until the Minefield is empty?The AI minesweeping is defenitely not optimal, but it is somewhat sufficient. Case in point, A pair of AI's facing off don't remain sealed off from each other forever. The way the AI uses the "mine sweeper" class ship, think of it as a lone kamikaze ship aimed at the nearest marked mine field. Not ideal, but it works with enough of them. Add additional minesweepers (in place of boarding or kamikaze) that will join fleets and the result appears adequate, though far from optimal.

I use true for ships don't move through minefields, but unmodded hulls don't have minesweeping capability like in AIC http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Master Belisarius

June 12th, 2003, 04:02 AM

Originally posted by cybersol:
[QUOTE]The way the AI uses the "mine sweeper" class ship, think of it as a lone kamikaze ship aimed at the nearest marked mine field. Not ideal, but it works with enough of them. Add additional minesweepers (in place of boarding or kamikaze) that will join fleets and the result appears adequate, though far from optimal.

I use true for ships don't move through minefields, but unmodded hulls don't have minesweeping capability like in AIC http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif This is exactly my approach... and the approach of most of the "modern" modders.

JLS

June 12th, 2003, 04:21 AM

bumped

[ June 12, 2003, 03:49: Message edited by: JLS ]

cybersol

June 12th, 2003, 04:41 AM

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
From scratch?? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif
It's something against my principles, I thought. Never started a Cobol program or an AI from zero!!!!Yeah, it seemed like a good idea when I started, but it takes longer than you would think. At least it forces me to learn about and make a decision on everything. So far I'm just focusing on the bussiness end of the AI, not the political or speech, etc.

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
A cloaked ship can't build anything... but as you noted in your second post, I think the best use for these ships is try to recover damaged ships that can't move...
I dislike when the space yard ship build something... usually they build Defense bases in middle of nowhere, or build colony ships and send those ships to colonize planets without load population first (and then the new colony will be useless for the AI!).Well that explains why you cloak them. I'm implementing space yard ships now, so I have not tested them. My impression from previous Posts is that they are supposed to go to a front line resupply base and construct from there. If they indeed build lots of stuff in the middle of nowhere then I will have to cloak them or not build them as well.

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
I only saw this behavior when an AI reach the DN, but maybe the trigger is that after some time without redesign a ship, the AI decide to redesign using the previous ship design with different weapon... It works better now that I call the destroyer and lower "light attack ship" and the light cruisers to battle cruisers "main attack ship". I hope it doesn't decided to produce more light attack ships later in the game though. CSM1 destroyers versus dreadnaughts would be amusing but not effective.

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
The problem is that considering the free space, the AI will try to use the most advanced Armor...

Conclusion: if you want to use a ship with lot of Standard Armors (not Scattering!), you should not research After Armor III!Yeah, I reached that conclusion also. If the armor were give an ability like "normal armor" and that could be called in the misc section that would work SO much better. Alas that requires modding though.

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
I think the AI always check the 1-11 every turn. My guess is that the AI always start from the number 1 in the queue and check if need to build the item or not. One after other.
For this, if the queue is very large, the AI have problems to reach the Lastest items in the queue... because always is building trying to replace the loses in the first places of the queue.AI_CONSTRUCTION_VEHICLES.TXT. This is a really interesting inquiry, and might deserve its own thread, but it would be all you guys anyway.

MB, what you describe is what I though at first also. AI_Research and AI_Planet_Types definitely work the way you describe, but they don't loop and are not numbered. I will have to test this out some more, because as you say it determines optimal queue length and behaivor.

JLS

June 12th, 2003, 04:46 AM

AI Kamikaze Mine Sweeper

This is indeed, may be the only current approach for base se4.

How may ships would you expect to be in your fleet?
How many fleets do you expect your AI to make by turn 400?

Kami mine Sweepers, what hull would you say would be appropriate and how many Mine Sweeping Components would be installed on a good Kami Mine Sweeper?

How many Kami Mine Sweepers would you expect to be Sufficient for one AI fleet?

How many AI Kami Mine Sweepers in Total, do you think would be required for all your AI Fleets?

Please, do not consider AI vs AI, but consider a good Human Player will have a Solid 100 Mine field probably back to back, for your AI to over come.

[ June 12, 2003, 04:12: Message edited by: JLS ]

JLS

June 12th, 2003, 04:47 AM

Bump

Originally posted by cybersol:
The AI minesweeping is defenitely not optimal, but it is somewhat sufficient. Case in point, A pair of AI's facing off don't remain sealed off from each other forever. The way the AI uses the "mine sweeper" class ship, think of it as a lone kamikaze ship aimed at the nearest marked mine field. Not ideal, but it works with enough of them. Add additional minesweepers (in place of boarding or kamikaze) that will join fleets and the result appears adequate, though far from optimal.

I use true for ships don't move through minefields
What if, the AI Player (1) had minefield that was marked belonging to Player (2) from first contact. Player (2) is 3 Systems away and a treaty is signed between the (1) and (2). Before AI Player (1) cleared Players (2) Minefield that is 3 Systems away from AI (1)players HW.

Now AI Player (1) makes first contact with Player (3) Minefield; about 15 turns after AI Players (1) agreement with Player (2), 6 Systems away from Players (1) Home World. AI player (1) and (3) almost immediately have hostilities.

With this scenario how do you think, AI player (1) will use his Mine Sweepers...

Please, no whos on first http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ June 15, 2003, 19:28: Message edited by: JLS ]

cybersol

June 12th, 2003, 06:08 AM

Originally posted by JLS:
AI Kamikaze Mine Sweeper

This is indeed, may be the only current approach for base se4.

How may ships would you expect to be in your fleet?
How many fleets do you expect your AI to make by turn 400?

Kami mine Sweepers, what hull would you say would be appropriate and how many Mine Sweeping Components would be installed on a good Kami Mine Sweeper?

How many Kami Mine Sweepers would you expect to be Sufficient for one AI fleet?

How many AI Kami Mine Sweepers in Total, do you think would be required for all your AI Fleets?I think we are understanding each other, but just to make sure. I used kamikaze meaning suicidal in reference to how the AI uses "Mine Sweeper" Design Type ships. These do not join fleets, so I also mentioned that I use a "Kamikaze Attack Ship" or "Boarding Ship" Design Type ship with minesweeper for fleet use.

So I am still testing, but right now I am using a "Kamikaze Attack Ship" class design in a fleet minesweeping and fleet repair role. Fleets are set to be around size 20 at the start to 60 or more in the late game. These support ships have 5 to 10 minesweeping components and 0-2 repair components as they increase from LC to DN. I am putting these in fleets at a 1 to 3 ratio with the main attack ship so far. Overkill for the late game probably, but seems good for late early-mid game when the AI has the most problems with mine fields.

If the don't move through minefield flag is true remember the fleet will not move through marked minefield until the minesweeper class clears them. But they will still walk over new mine fields like they are not there. If it is false then you will lose some scouts and colony ships unnecessarily but your fleets should be move straight through.

As for the other lone wolf "Mine Sweeper" class ships, they are basically all minesweepers because they are going to die on a large minefield at some point. If they run into a fleet they are toast anyway because they are alone. That is why I called them suicidal.

As I said, I'm still testing and this just what I am using now. MB and others have much more experience. Hope this helps.

cybersol

June 12th, 2003, 06:19 AM

Originally posted by JLS:
What if, the AI Player (1) had minefield that was marked belonging to Player (2) from first contact. Player (2) is 3 Systems away and a treaty is signed between the (1) and (2). Before AI Player (1) cleared Players (2) Minefield that is 3 Systems away from AI (1)players HW.

Now AI Player (1) makes first contact with Player (3) Minefield; about 15 turns after AI Players (1) agreement with Player (2), 6 Systems away from Players (1) Home World. AI player (1) and (3) almost immediately have hostilities.

With this scenario how do you think, AI player (1) will use his Mine Sweepers...Very intriguing question. I don't know the answer without testing it. But the test could be set up by playing all three players and then turning on the complete ai of the one that was set up.

Either way, once the first ship enters that square and does not blow up then it will most definately clear the minefield marker and move on to the next one.

cybersol

June 12th, 2003, 06:35 AM

More questions:

6) As a human player I can design a ship with a small transport hull that has 5 mine layer components. Since their secondary ability is cargo storage and 150/300 >= 50% then this is a valid design. Is there a way to have the AI design this ship, or is a transport hull forced to have eight cargo storage components for the AI no matter what?
7) Does anyone know how to fix the fact that the AI retrofits ships and then leaves when they are only half done repairing?

[ June 12, 2003, 08:46: Message edited by: cybersol ]

JLS

June 12th, 2003, 05:16 PM

Originally posted by cybersol:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JLS:
What if, the AI Player (1) had minefield that was marked belonging to Player (2) from first contact. Player (2) is 3 Systems away and a treaty is signed between the (1) and (2). Before AI Player (1) cleared Players (2) Minefield that is 3 Systems away from AI (1)players HW.

Now AI Player (1) makes first contact with Player (3) Minefield; about 15 turns after AI Players (1) agreement with Player (2), 6 Systems away from Players (1) Home World. AI player (1) and (3) almost immediately have hostilities.

With this scenario how do you think, AI player (1) will use his Mine Sweepers...Very intriguing question. I don't know the answer without testing it. But the test could be set up by playing all three players and then turning on the complete ai of the one that was set up.

Either way, once the first ship enters that square and does not blow up then it will most definately clear the minefield marker and move on to the next one.<hr /></blockquote>~~~

Originally posted by cybersol:
I use true for ships don't move through minefields,

Either way, once the first ship enters that square and does not blow up then it will most definately clear the minefield marker and move on to the next one.[/QB]This appears conflicting, if you Modified the se4 Default setting of = False to true

AI setting file:
Ships don't move through minefields := True

Will the AI player (1) actually? ~ � once the first ship enters that square and does not blow up then it will most definitely clear the minefield marker and move on to the next one.�

It may be recommended with base se4, that you set Mine Sweeper availability to be a high priority tech to Research, if you wish your AI to expand?

=

Once AI player (1) has Mine Sweeper tech, and a treaty-will this AI move to Player (2) then Un-Toggle the Players (2) minefield and attempt a move to sweep Players (3) minefield?

Then, what if� Player (1) had mine sweepers all ready, but had not moved to upsweep players (2) prior to the agreement (Still marked) would a move after this treaty, un-toggle Players (2) Minefield, even if there are still mines present? If so, would Player (1) Minesweepers move in an attempt to sweep players (3) Minefield?

======================================

I assert this scenario, not to be a wise guy, but only that I was on the premise you wanted a un-MODED AI for an unmodded game.

Originally posted by cybersol:
I am in the process of developing my first AI for the unmodded game.
~~~
~~~
Alas that requires modding though.
� I use true for ships don't move through minefields � In the AI settings file.
By this change of the se4 original data, You have in fact made your first MOD to se4. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

In doing this you have changed the way the AI, will intrepid Sceneries, and you may not have the results you would anticipate for that AI.

There is a reason this is default false, for original se4.
I can assure the default intent of :=False is not to have the AI Sacrifice Combat Ships foolishly in another player�s minefield until all mines are depleted. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ June 12, 2003, 17:38: Message edited by: JLS ]

cybersol

June 12th, 2003, 08:18 PM

Originally posted by JLS:
This appears conflicting, if you Modified the se4 Default setting of = False to true...
Will the AI player (1) actually? ~ � once the first ship enters that square and does not blow up then it will most definitely clear the minefield marker and move on to the next one.�

It may be recommended with base se4, that you set Mine Sweeper availability to be a high priority tech to Research, if you wish your AI to expand?Well, by definition in creating a AI, I am modifying the AI files of a race. So all changes to the AI files of that race are fair game. "Ships don't move through minefields" is in xyz_AI_Settings.txt so I can change it to whatever I want. But I am not changing the data files, thus in essence the goal in a competitive AI for the unmodded game. This is similar to the goals of the TDM Modpack for instance, only on the scale of only one race for me right now.

Now their is a trade-off to both settings of ships don't move through minefields. If it is true, then only "Mine Sweeper" Design types will move into marked minefields. Predictable and since they travel alone, they could be prey to an intelligent human opponent. If it is false, then the behaivor is less predictable but the AI acts as though it doesn't know about the minefield. So it sends innocent ships without minesweepers to their demise.

So to answer you question explicitly, the AI will move a "Mine Sweeper" design type into the mine field even when set to true. At that point if at least one ship survives, my experience so far is that it will clear the marked minefield. It may be smart and clear these marked minefield when making a treaty, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Yes, ship construction, an early weapon, point defense, and then mine sweepers are early research priorities for the AI IMHO.

Suicide Junkie

June 12th, 2003, 08:29 PM

It may be smart and clear these marked minefield when making a treaty, but I wouldn't bet on it.Even if it dosen't, as soon as a ship enters that sector and dosen't die, the field marker gets cleared.

cybersol

June 12th, 2003, 09:26 PM

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
Even if it dosen't, as soon as a ship enters that sector and dosen't die, the field marker gets cleared.Thanks SJ, that is what I was trying to say the sentence before that.

Any thoughts on questions 1-7) from the P&N Master?

JLS

June 12th, 2003, 11:25 PM

Originally posted by JLS:
(1) Why would you want the AI to invest the Resources for a cloaking BSY, as opposed to a shield and PD?
~~~

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
Good question. My oppinon is that the Armor Cloak is good because give the bonus and a little protection while cloaked. Anwyay, a lone space shipyard usually is dead meat...
Great tip, MB. I am going to use Armor Cloak more for my AI Designs
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ June 12, 2003, 22:26: Message edited by: JLS ]

Master Belisarius

June 13th, 2003, 12:21 AM

Originally posted by cybersol:
More questions:
6) As a human player I can design a ship with a small transport hull that has 5 mine layer components. Since their secondary ability is cargo storage and 150/300 >= 50% then this is a valid design. Is there a way to have the AI design this ship, or is a transport hull forced to have eight cargo storage components for the AI no matter what?
The AI select the hull, in basis of the ship design. For example, you will see that my AIs never use the "Transport" hull.

Originally posted by cybersol:

7) Does anyone know how to fix the fact that the AI retrofits ships and then leaves when they are only half done repairing?Nope. Think the only way is to include repair ships in the fleets...

cybersol

June 13th, 2003, 07:45 AM

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
I think the AI always check the 1-11 every turn. My guess is that the AI always start from the number 1 in the queue and check if need to build the item or not. One after other.
For this, if the queue is very large, the AI have problems to reach the Lastest items in the queue... because always is building trying to replace the loses in the first places of the queue.Well, I finished testing this and you (as usual) are correct. It seems to start at the top of the queue for that ai state every turn looking for something to build. If the requirements are satisfied then it moves down to the next item. So redundant lines really will not help. Now I have to revisit all my queues.

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
The AI select the hull, in basis of the ship design. For example, you will see that my AIs never use the "Transport" hull.Yeah, selecting the small transport hull is easy (via majority component). But getting it to use 5 mine layers as the required components instead of 8 cargo storage seems impossible. Bummer.

cybersol

June 13th, 2003, 08:20 AM

Thanks, guys for answering my questions.

Summary of what I have learned from the questions so far:
1) If you use a cloak on ship space yards, don't expect any production. But this might be a good thing.
2,3,4,6,7) These are all slight imperfections in how the AI works, you can't do anything about them except live with them.
5) I was just plain wrong. The construction_vehicles file reads from top to bottom inside the current state everytime it wants to construct something.

New Question:
8) Most ships seems to understand when they are running out of supply EXCEPT colony ships. Those are really important ships not to stop off and resupply before travelling across the entire quadrant. Is there any trick (before solar collectors make it unecessary) to get them to stop and resupply at a forward system and then go off and colonize. (I'll probably have to live with this one too, unfortunately).

Grand Lord Vito

June 13th, 2003, 02:40 PM

imperfections in how the AI works, you can't do anything about them except live with them.
I am a newbie like you but I do not want to play with imperfections http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Cybersol, what was actually covered in this thread so far, on 1-5 even 6 and 7 was just berly touched on and I don/t see many se4 AI resolutions in most or the tricks you talked about. How can you say that it is understood, when none of your topics has been really discussed. Accept a few points from Master Belisarius and JLS.
I do not see how you think a SYS can work for the AI or most of 1-7. You seem to always miss quote the participating parties here in your thread. You do not answer some questions to be sure we understand how, why or what to do in any certain topic of 1 thru 7, just say this is not a real bad imperfection or is it actualy really still broken.

EDIT:

"How do you think it works?"

A: Does boarding work for the AI
B: JLS why is Recon Sats for the AI still a concern
C: Should the AI build recyclers
D: I think I understand why mine sweepers don’t work for the AI
E: Should I build Planet Ship and Fleet Facilities. JLS and MB says yes, you say it does not work
1: Space Yard Ships it appears MB does not think overall they are good for the AI
2: If I use the same ship name (and type) but different weapons. Is this a simple design and what you research for the AI, but solution is not clear
3: Is there anyway to stop the AI from trying to retrofit. No one has said what happens to this ship, the way it sounds you would have dozens of over the HW.
4: I don’t suppose anyone knows a trick (without modding). You don’t want to Mod the AI here but it is ok with Minefields. You say but TRUE, JLS just got me confused even more and the experts have not remarked on why it is set to False for the AI in the defaults in se4.
5: ok here, good advise from MB but will the AI use the lines after 11?
6: Why is it that AIC and Proportions the AI have Small Transport Mine and Sat Layers
7: What does the AI do with its damaged ship do in se4
8:

[ June 13, 2003, 20:15: Message edited by: Grand Lord Vito ]

cybersol

June 13th, 2003, 08:17 PM

Originally posted by Grand Lord Vito:
I am a newbie like you but I do not want to play with imperfections.Well, most will not be apparent from the players point of view. But they can be very frustrating for the aspiring AI modder.

Originally posted by Grand Lord Vito:
Cybersol, what was actually covered in this thread so far, on 1-5 even 6 and 7 was just berly touched on and I don/t see many se4 AI resolutions in most or the tricks you talked about. How can you say that it is understood, when none of your topics has been really discussed. Accept a few points from Master Belisarius and JLS.I agree 100% that we have not seen many resolutions to 2-4 and 6-7. I was hoping that summarizing might lead someone to correct me if I was wrong about them being imperfections we have to live with. Or they would interject with a novel trick that would solve one of the questions.

Originally posted by Grand Lord Vito:
[QUOTE]I do not see how you think a SYS can work for the AI or most of 1-7.Well, MB was the one that uses cloaks on his space yard ships. He also said he prefers that they not produce anything because they tend to do wierd things. Together, this clears up why he uses cloaks while others (mephisto for example) do not.

Originally posted by Grand Lord Vito:
[QUOTE]You seem to always miss quote the precipitating parties here in your thread.All I can say is the quotes were accurate at the time I begin posting my reply. Edits after that sometimes changed the content of the original message. Also, through the detail of always putting the author at the head of each quote, you can tell I take quotation very seriously. All in all, this is a strong comment to make and it seems a little too personal.

EDIT: For example you just removed thing I quouted about teachers and students.

Originally posted by Grand Lord Vito:
[QUOTE]You do not answer some questions to be sure we understand how, why or what to do in any certain objective of 1 thru 7, just say this is not a real bad imperfection or actualy really is still broken in se4.What do you want to know? Feel free to ask questions, I think I have gained understanding about what to do with 1) and 5) if you want me to explain more of what I learned. As I said before I still waiting and hoping for solutions to the others.

Originally posted by Grand Lord Vito:
[QUOTE]You say you (need help) but it seems you are trying very hard to Treach your views, instead of the student listening to the advise of the expertsFirst of all, I revere and respect the experts, because only through trying this can I full understand how much effort they put into making this game better for all of us.

Yet JLS asked my opinion on whether minesweeping was feasible by the AI, so I gave it. Was I supposed to just not respond? I did feel I a little knowledge here because I had just spent some time looking into minesweeping. I was focused on this issue because an effective AI must deal with mines if it is to continue to expand or even just attack.

[ June 13, 2003, 19:23: Message edited by: cybersol ]

Grand Lord Vito

June 13th, 2003, 09:02 PM

Cybersol, I realized it sounded personal sorry, I am just frustrated I guess.
But from what I have read no one but MB has come up to the plate.
I added some points below if anyone can still clarify them.
I have made 2 AI design and if they are not right then I will need to change them.

cybersol

June 13th, 2003, 09:41 PM

I'm going quoteless here, but these are all responses to Grand Lord Vito.

First of all, read the entire thread by the TDM modders that I quoted earlier. It is great advice, though some of it is a little outdated. Here is the link again (http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=003981;p=2).

A: Does boarding work for the AI

From what I have seen the TDM Vikings (by Rollo) use it extensively. I am still wondering what JLS observed to make it seem ineffective.

B: JLS why is Recon Sats for the AI still a concern

He was basically saying that it is not a good idea to build too many of them in the construction_vehicles file because you will then have 40 recon satellites in a sector which is just a waste.

C: Should the AI build recyclers

It will never move ships there intentionally before it scraps them. It might by chance end up scrapping over a world with a recycler and get the benefit that way. Up to you whether that makes them worth building or not.

D: I think I understand why mine sweepers don't work for the AI

Both MB and I have said they work ok, but not great. Why do you think they don't work?

E: Should I build Planet Ship and Fleet Facilities. JLS and MB says yes, you say it does not work

It works in the same sense as recylcers, the AI doesn't move a ship or a fleet into that sector intentionally to train it. If it happens to be in that sector a couple of turns for other reasons it will receive training. Also, according to mephisto in that thread above, the AI used to break up and reform fleets a lot so fleet training was even less effective. I still have not heard whether this is still true or not. So ship training probably couldn't hurt, especially on planet types where the AI ships tend to hover for a turn or more. Fleet training, need some input from the experts.

1: Space Yard Ships it appears MB does not think overall they are good for the AI

Somewhere in that thread they describe how the AI uses SYS. There are 2 roles they can play, ship rescue and movable construction bases. MB values the ship rescue role (which they can do while cloaked) but not the construction base role (which he can disable by using a cloak).

2: If I use the same ship name (and type) but different weapons. Is this a simple design and what you research for the AI, but solution is not clear

Well, for now I am using a different name but the same design type when the weapons compliment changes. I haven't approached the late game to many times in testing yet, so I don't know if I will need to do additional work like adding a second DN class with a different weapons compliment (see Death Match 2 thread for more info here).

3: Is there anyway to stop the AI from trying to retrofit. No one has said what happens to this ship, the way it sounds you would have dozens of over the HW.

Well, for me it tries to retrofit for 10 or more turns until finally the tech changes so the new design is different and then the ships can retrofit properly. Since posting this problem, I now run into a similar one where ships that hit the 50% retrofit limit just sit there useless trying to retrofit but failing over and over again for a long while.

4: I don't suppose anyone knows a trick (without modding). You don' want to Mod the AI here but it is ok with Minefields. You say but TRUE, JLS just got me confused more and the experts have not remarked on why it is set to False for the AI in the defaults in se4.

I explain both the limits of my modding and the trade-offs of the true versus false settings in previous Posts. Look back for answers. If you still have questions, then ask specifics.

6: Why is it that AIC and Proportions the AI have Small Transport Mine and Sat Layers

Do the AIC and Proportions small transport mine and sat layers have greater than 50% of thier capacity devoted to cargo storage? I am trying to design a small transport ship with 5 mine layers and NO cargo storage. I can acheive this as a player but I cannot get the AI to design the same ship.

7: What does the AI do with its damaged ship

As far as I can tell, the damaged ship after retrofit bug seems to happen because the hardcode does not factor in repair aptitude. But I still need to test a race with 100% apptitude to make sure.

I hopes this helps. I understand your frustrations at trying to program the AI and I hope we can help each other.

JLS

June 13th, 2003, 10:24 PM

Relax GLV; it is only a computer game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
--------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Grand Lord Vito:

You seem to always miss quote the precipitating parties here in your thread.
I do not think I was mis-quoted, GLV.

This is not golf, GLV, were it is good etiquette is to let players play thru, and were some may just drive away.

Originally posted by cybersol:
Yet JLS asked my opinion on whether minesweeping was feasible by the AI, so I gave it. Was I supposed to just not respond? I did feel I a little knowledge here because I had just spent some time looking into minesweeping. I was focused on this issue because an effective AI must deal with mines if it is to continue to expand or even just attack.
This was a very interesting exchange I enjoyed it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Cybersol,
By the way http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif in the Scenarios; will AI Player (1) Mine Sweepers or ships (:=True) move on to Player (3) minefields.

Originally posted by Grand Lord Vito:
B: JLS why is Recon Sats for the AI still a concern
That is all; just keep an eye on the ratio in your Sat Groups.
Your AI look fine, here GLV

Originally posted by Grand Lord Vito:
4: You say but TRUE, JLS just got me confused even more and the experts have not remarked on why it is set to False for the AI in the defaults in se4.
The AI Player (1) Scenarios

This was just a teaser for Cybersol
Sorry if I confused the topic

Originally posted by Grand Lord Vito:
Why is it that AIC and Proportions the AI have Small Transport Mine and Sat Layers
You mention MODs, GLV and Cybersol is looking to create an AI for TDM.

The Small Transport designs, I made for the Abbidon in Proportions may be applicable in base se4 AI.

Cybersol, if you have time can you check.
The engines entry may need to be adjusted but the design should work for your TDM AI.

Name := Mine Layer
Design Type := Mine Layer
Vehicle Type := Ship
Default Strategy := Don't Get Hurt
Size Minimum Tonnage := 290
Size Maximum Tonnage := 310
Num Must Have At Least 1 Ability := 1
Must Have Ability 1 := Lay Mines
Minimum Speed := 3
Desired Speed := 9
Majority Weapon Family Pick 1 := 0
Majority Weapon Family Pick 2 := 0
Majority Weapon Family Pick 3 := 0
Majority Weapon Family Pick 4 := 0
Majority Weapon Family Pick 5 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 1 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 2 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 3 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 4 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 5 := 0
Shields Spaces Per One := 0
Armor Spaces Per One := 0
Majority Comp Spaces Per One := 10000
Majority Comp Ability := Cargo Storage
Secondary Comp Spaces Per One := 0
Secondary Comp Ability :=
Num Misc Abilities := 3
Misc Ability 1 Name := Solar Supply Generation
Misc Ability 1 Spaces Per One := 10000
Misc Ability 2 Name := Supply Storage
Misc Ability 2 Spaces Per One := 90
Misc Ability 3 Name := Lay Mines
Misc Ability 3 Spaces Per One := 10

===============================

But from what I have read no one but MB has come up to the plate.
GLV, I was the first one out of the box http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ June 13, 2003, 21:57: Message edited by: JLS ]

cybersol

June 13th, 2003, 11:02 PM

Originally posted by JLS:
Cybersol, if you have time can you check.
The engines entry may need to be adjusted but the design should work for your TDM AI.

Name := Mine Layer
Design Type := Mine Layer
Vehicle Type := Ship
Default Strategy := Don't Get Hurt
Size Minimum Tonnage := 290
Size Maximum Tonnage := 310
Num Must Have At Least 1 Ability := 1
Must Have Ability 1 := Lay Mines
Minimum Speed := 3
Desired Speed := 9
Majority Weapon Family Pick 1 := 0
Majority Weapon Family Pick 2 := 0
Majority Weapon Family Pick 3 := 0
Majority Weapon Family Pick 4 := 0
Majority Weapon Family Pick 5 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 1 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 2 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 3 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 4 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 5 := 0
Shields Spaces Per One := 0
Armor Spaces Per One := 0
Majority Comp Spaces Per One := 10000
Majority Comp Ability := Cargo Storage
Secondary Comp Spaces Per One := 0
Secondary Comp Ability :=
Num Misc Abilities := 3
Misc Ability 1 Name := Solar Supply Generation
Misc Ability 1 Spaces Per One := 10000
Misc Ability 2 Name := Supply Storage
Misc Ability 2 Spaces Per One := 90
Misc Ability 3 Name := Lay Mines
Misc Ability 3 Spaces Per One := 10I tried it, and as expected this results in a ship with 9 cargo storage and 1 mine layer components. I recommonend at least changing the "Majority Comp Spaces Per One := 10000" to "Majority Comp Spaces Per One := 0", since this will at least give you only 8 cargo storage. Then you can fit one of those supply storage components.

Now start up a game with yourself in command, create a ship design with a small transport hull. Fill with command and control and engines. The "50% of spaces must be used for cargo containers" warning won't let you create the design yet. No add only five mine layer components. The warning disappears, you can create the design now.

Now try to get your AI to build that same ship. As far as I can tell it is impossible.

Originally posted by JLS:
Cybersol, By the way in the Scenarios; will AI Player (1) Mine Sweepers or ships (:=True) move on to Player (3) minefields.Well, you certainly are persistent. I still don't know because I don't have the time to set up this particular test. I am currently testing all the other stuff that needs testing to get a new AI working well. If you are really interested in the best possible answer, set up the test (should take less than an hour).

But if I had to hazard a guess based on what I know now. The AI would sign a treaty with player 2, but since the minefield was already marked I doubt the hardcode is able to figure out that the minefield belongs to player 2, and I just signed a treaty with player 2, so the minefield is no longer a threat (If the hardcode does recognize this then that is awesome). Let us assume it does not recognize it and ships don't move through minefields = true. All ships will avoid the marked minefield except the "mine sweeper" design type ships. These will actively seek out the marked minefield. After entering the square with the marked minefield, the first "mine sweeper" type ship will not die because the treaty is in effect and thus the minefield is not actually harmful. The fact that the ship lived must mean there is not minefield here, so the AI will clear the marked minefield. The minesweepers will start seeking out the next marked minefield, which in this case belongs to player 3.

Now if ships don't move through minefields = false, then the minesweepers behave the same, but all the other ships ignore marked minefields. For the player 2 minefield this means a scout ship or attack fleet could move through the marked minefield and survive, causing it to become unmarked. Potentialy wwitching the minesweepers to focus on the player 3 marked minefield faster. But, for the player 3 minefield, your scouts and attack fleets will move through it like it is not there, but they will die a horrible death.

[ June 13, 2003, 22:21: Message edited by: cybersol ]

JLS

June 13th, 2003, 11:25 PM

If I can make it work in Proportions, it may work in se4. The Component database is similar but the Greater Cargo Capacity for the Cargo Bay in se4 is probably the problem

[ June 13, 2003, 22:29: Message edited by: JLS ]

JLS

June 13th, 2003, 11:34 PM

Originally posted by cybersol:
Well, you certainly are persistent.I was just looking for a yes or no answer http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Now I have to figure out what you just typed http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

cybersol

June 13th, 2003, 11:41 PM

Originally posted by JLS:
If I can make it work in Proportions, it may work in se4. The Component database is similar but the Greater Cargo Capacity for the Cargo Bay in se4 is probably the problemHehe, I just looked at the AIC small transport hull for the AI. Yeah, that is a different beast altogether. 30% Cargo storage requirement with almost no maintence, minesweeping, and some cargo already built in http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Originally posted by JLS:
I was just looking for a yes or no answer
Now I have to figure out what you just typedWell, I wanted to make sure I answered your question FULLY this time http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ June 13, 2003, 22:47: Message edited by: cybersol ]

JLS

June 14th, 2003, 12:45 AM

Cybersol,

That is why my Abbidon mine layer design for Proportion may have a shot.

Do to AIC's AI programing their little in AIC designs that can "help you with your unmoded AI Designs"

cybersol

June 14th, 2003, 01:32 AM

They just keep coming! Is anyone reading anymore?

9) Any way to force the AI to do engine retrofits at planets with both a shipyard AND a resupply base? For instance, is there a way to get it to build a resupply base (even though it wants to put only one per system) on every planet with a shipyard?

narf poit chez BOOM

June 14th, 2003, 02:49 AM

browsing. some of it.

Grand Lord Vito

June 14th, 2003, 03:24 PM

Originally posted by cybersol:
If you still have questions, then ask specifics.

A: Does boarding work for the AI

From what I have seen the TDM Vikings (by Rollo) use it extensively. I am still wondering what JLS observed to make it seem ineffective.
JLS, why is boarding ineffective.

D: I think I understand why mine sweepers don't work for the AI

Both MB and I have said they work ok, but not great. Why do you think they don't work?
Now I am not sure I understand.
JLS you seem to be the only one that says those ai minesweepers are ineffective. Why is this? What would you say for the trade-offs of the true versus false? What would choose True or False.

E: Should I build Planet Ship and Fleet Facilities. JLS and MB says yes, you say it does not work

. So ship training probably couldn't hurt, especially on planet types where the AI ships tend to hover for a turn or more. Fleet training, need some input from the experts.
What planet types would you recommend the ai to built the Ship Training Facility?
I don’t understand, why would the “Fleet training, need some input from the experts”
Does the AI handle Fleet Training operationally different from Ship training?

3: Is there anyway to stop the AI from trying to retrofit. No one has said what happens to this ship, the way it sounds you would have dozens of over the HW.

Well, for me it tries to retrofit for 10 or more turns until finally the tech changes so the new design is different and then the ships can retrofit properly. Since posting this problem, I now run into a similar one where ships that hit the 50% retrofit limit just sit there useless trying to retrofit but failing over and over again for a long while.
The way it sounds you would still have dozens of ships over the ai Home World.

How long of a long while, is this expected to Last? 5 turns or 500 turns?

5: Could someone answer 5 please.

7: What does the AI do with its damaged ship

As far as I can tell, the damaged ship after retrofit bug seems to happen because the hardcode does not factor in repair aptitude. But I still need to test a race with 100% apptitude to make sure.f
What does the AI do with its damaged ship. More specifically, if the ai has a ship with minor damage in the home systems warp point?)

5: Specifics. In the Vehicle file will the AI use the lines after 11?
And what of the redundant Colony ships in exploration for example). For example, build some colony ships, build some attack ships, build colony ships again to replace, build support ships, build colony ships again to replace, etc.

I don’t understand how this has been answered?

Originally posted by cybersol:
5) AI_CONSTRUCTION_VEHICLES.TXT. It seems in my experience that you get a more even distribution of ships if you add multiple copies of the exact same entry (colony ships in exploration for example). For example, build some colony ships, build some attack ships, build colony ships again to replace, build support ships, build colony ships again to replace, etc. My guess is that if the hardcode is at entry 12 in this file, then it goes to 13 when it finishes 12 without looking at 1-11 again until the next time it arrives at them by going around one at a time through the loop. How do you think it works?

Originally posted by cybersol:
5) I was just plain wrong. The construction_vehicles file reads from top to bottom inside the current state everytime it wants to construct something.

cybersol

June 15th, 2003, 08:40 AM

Originally posted by Grand Lord Vito:
What planet types would you recommend the AI to built the Ship Training Facility?
I don't understand, why would the Fleet training, need some input from the experts. Does the AI handle Fleet Training operationally different from Ship training?If the AI disbands and reforms fleets without good reason, then any fleet training that had managed to happen by chance will be undone since the fleet was disbanded. Ship training will not be affected, though.

Originally posted by Grand Lord Vito:
How long of a long while, is this expected to Last? 5 turns or 500 turns?In my case 10 to 50 turns depending. Longer for the 50% limit problem than for the same design problem.

Update on the retrofit ship damage front:
Ok, the Last few times the AI has done a retrofit, waited a single turn, then sent the ship off. It is not related to repair ability because no repair ability could repair enough components in one turn to fix some of those ships. The ships fly around damaged trying to perform their normal role like nothing is wrong with them.

Originally posted by Grand Lord Vito:
5: Specifics. In the Vehicle file will the AI use the lines after 11?
And what of the redundant Colony ships in exploration for example). For example, build some colony ships, build some attack ships, build colony ships again to replace, build support ships, build colony ships again to replace, etc.

I don't understand how this has been answered?
Well, the file doesn't work the way I thinking when I asked question five. MB and some further testing cleared it up though. Here is how it works. Every turn the AI goes to the top of the queue in construction_vehilces for whatever AI state you are in presently. "Exploration" for instance. It reads entry 1, adding whatever is needed to the build queue of some world. If you still have resources and more build queue slots then it goes to entry 2. So it starts at the top and goes down every turn. Thus a redundant call, say build ten colony ships at entry 1 and again at entry 4, has no value and is just redundant. Because every turn the first entry causes it to fill the build queues to have 10 colony ships total the second entry has no effect. But a second call to build 20 colony ships at entry 4 would then add 10 more if there were build slots available after 1-3.

cybersol

June 15th, 2003, 08:50 AM

Originally posted by cybersol:
They just keep coming! Is anyone reading anymore?

9) Any way to force the AI to do engine retrofits at planets with both a shipyard AND a resupply base? For instance, is there a way to get it to build a resupply base (even though it wants to put only one per system) on every planet with a shipyard?They say it is bad when you start talking to yourself. But here it is nonetheless. Ships with supply storage components at least still have some supply, so this helps this problem some. The only really bad problem is then colony ships because as I mentioned in #8), colony ships never try to resupply. Even if they retrofit engines at a non-resupply base and have only 500 supply from their supply storage they still head (very SLOWLY) accross the galaxy.

cybersol

June 15th, 2003, 09:12 AM

Still looking for novel solutions to the following AI bugs.

Problem/Bug 3a)
Is there anyway to stop the AI from trying to retrofit to a �newer� Version of a ship that is in fact the same as the old Version? This results in ships being wasted just sitting there and trying to be retrofitted but failing because the ships are identical.

Problem/Bug 3b)
A similar bug where ships that hit the 50% retrofit limit just sit there useless trying to retrofit but failing over and over again. This happens for a long time, sometimes they switch and try to retrofit at a different ship yard with the same result.

Problem/Bug 6)
As a human player I can design a ship with a small transport hull that has only 5 mine layer components and no cargo storage components but sull fulfills the 50% cargo requirement. Since the mine layers secondary ability is cargo storage and 5*30=150 and 150/300 >= 50% then this is a valid design. Is there a way to have the AI design this ship, or is a transport hull forced to have eight cargo storage components for the AI no matter what?
To prove this design works for a human player, do the following. Start up an unmodded game with yourself in command, create a ship design with a small transport hull. Fill with command and control and engines. The "50% of spaces must be used for cargo containers" warning won't let you create the design yet. No add only five mine layer components. The warning disappears, you can create the design now. You need zero cargo components to make this ship. Now try to get your AI to build that same ship. As far as I can tell it is impossible.

Problem/Bug 7)
The AI will retrofit a ship and then leave before it finished repairing all the damaged components it just created.
Since I've have been looking in more detail, I noticed a pattern the Last few time the AI has done this. It does the retrofit, waits a single turn for any repair work, then sends the ship off for duty. The ships then fly around damaged trying to perform their normal role like nothing is wrong with them.

Problem/Bug 8)
Most ships seems to understand when they are running out of supply except colony ships. Those are really important ships not to stop off and resupply before travelling across the entire quadrant. Is there any trick (before solar collectors make it unecessary) to get them to stop and resupply at a forward system and then go off and colonize.

Problem/Bug 9)
Any way to force the AI to do engine retrofits at planets with both a shipyard AND a resupply base? For instance, is there a way to get it to build a resupply base (even though it wants to put only one per system) on every planet with a shipyard?
Ships with supply storage components at least still have some supply, so this helps this problem some. The only really bad problem is then colony ships because as I mentioned above in 8), colony ships never try to resupply. Even if they retrofit engines at a non-resupply base and have only 500 supply from their supply storage they still head (very SLOWLY) accross the entire quadrant!

oleg

June 15th, 2003, 09:22 AM

Originally posted by cybersol:
Problem/Bug 9)
Any way to force the AI to do engine retrofits at planets with both a shipyard AND a resupply base? For instance, is there a way to get it to build a resupply base (even though it wants to put only one per system) on every planet with a shipyard?
Ships with supply storage components at least still have some supply, so this helps this problem some. The only really bad problem is then colony ships because as I mentioned above in 8), colony ships never try to resupply. Even if they retrofit engines at a non-resupply base and have only 500 supply from their supply storage they still head (very SLOWLY) accross the entire quadrant!Absolutely ! AI religiously follows the build order specified in A_construction_facilities file. All you should do is to insert entry with "resupply" on every colony type that has "space yard". Regarding "resupply colony", it does not have to be only one per system. It is also specified in the same file. In fact, one my Proportion' AI build up to 5 resupply baces per system and space yards+resupply baces every time http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

oleg

June 15th, 2003, 09:28 AM

Originally posted by cybersol:
Problem/Bug 3a)
Is there anyway to stop the AI from trying to retrofit to a “newer” Version of a ship that is in fact the same as the old Version? This results in ships being wasted just sitting there and trying to be retrofitted but failing because the ships are identical.

Not what I know of, but it is not a very big deal. It does not go for more than 3 turns per ship. It can be even used for AI advantage - AI does not benefit from ship training facilities - ships rarely stay over planet even for one turn. "identical retrofit" cause ships to hover over the planet with space yard. If your AI builds ship training facility there (mod construction_facilities file ! ) it can actually train ship crews http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

cybersol

June 15th, 2003, 09:48 AM

Originally posted by oleg:
Problem/Bug 9) Solution
Absolutely ! AI religiously follows the build order specified in A_construction_facilities file. All you should do is to insert entry with "resupply" on every colony type that has "space yard". Regarding "resupply colony", it does not have to be only one per system. It is also specified in the same file. In fact, one my Proportion' AI build up to 5 resupply baces per system and space yards+resupply baces every timeI am learning a lot about modded AI's. I looked into your Puntherraian AI and I see "Emergency Resupply" calls for resupply bases. Looking at the proportions Facility.txt in the data folder I see resupply depots have been modded to have both the "Supply Generation" and "Emergency Resupply" ability. Unfortunately the unmodded resupply depots only have the "Supply Generation" ability. It seems the "Supply Generation" call is the one that is limited to one per system. So I see how you can get it all to work in proportions, but I can also see why it doesn't work for a TDM type AI.

Thanks for the information, oleg. All around that modification to facilities is definitely a novel way around the problem.

Originally posted by oleg:
Problem/Bug 3a) Bug turned into advantage!
Not what I know of, but it is not a very big deal. It does not go for more than 3 turns per ship. It can be even used for AI advantage - AI does not benefit from ship training facilities - ships rarely stay over planet even for one turn. "identical retrofit" cause ships to hover over the planet with space yard. If your AI builds ship training facility there (mod construction_facilities file ! ) it can actually train ship crewsThat is a great point because I am building ship training facilities right now (have not decided on fleet training yet though, your thoughts?). Just to let you know though, I have had a design that changes tech rarely stay over a planet for 10 turns before the design finally changed and the retrofit was successful.

[ June 15, 2003, 08:59: Message edited by: cybersol ]

oleg

June 16th, 2003, 12:30 PM

I do not think "supply generation" is limited one per system. Or is it ? Does AI treat "supply generation" as a some sort of system-wide ability ? I doubt it very much. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

Master Belisarius

June 16th, 2003, 04:36 PM

Originally posted by Rollo:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by oleg:
I do not think "supply generation" is limited one per system. Or is it ? Does AI treat "supply generation" as a some sort of system-wide ability ? I doubt it very much. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif well, in standard SE4 the AI builds only one resupply depot per system. So yes, Suppply Generation does have some sort of hardcode like system wide facilities.
A very good thing to avoid excess facilities to save slots and resources, IMO.

Rollo<hr /></blockquote>I agree with you.
Honestly, I prefer that the AI retrofit the engines of a ship into a planet without Resupply Depot, than keep more than one Resupply Depot per system.

Master Belisarius

June 16th, 2003, 04:54 PM

Originally posted by cybersol:
Still looking for novel solutions to the following AI bugs.

Problem/Bug 3a)
Is there anyway to stop the AI from trying to retrofit to a �newer� Version of a ship that is in fact the same as the old Version? This results in ships being wasted just sitting there and trying to be retrofitted but failing because the ships are identical.

Problem/Bug 3b)
A similar bug where ships that hit the 50% retrofit limit just sit there useless trying to retrofit but failing over and over again. This happens for a long time, sometimes they switch and try to retrofit at a different ship yard with the same result.

Problem/Bug 6)
As a human player I can design a ship with a small transport hull that has only 5 mine layer components and no cargo storage components but sull fulfills the 50% cargo requirement. Since the mine layers secondary ability is cargo storage and 5*30=150 and 150/300 >= 50% then this is a valid design. Is there a way to have the AI design this ship, or is a transport hull forced to have eight cargo storage components for the AI no matter what?
To prove this design works for a human player, do the following. Start up an unmodded game with yourself in command, create a ship design with a small transport hull. Fill with command and control and engines. The "50% of spaces must be used for cargo containers" warning won't let you create the design yet. No add only five mine layer components. The warning disappears, you can create the design now. You need zero cargo components to make this ship. Now try to get your AI to build that same ship. As far as I can tell it is impossible.

Problem/Bug 7)
The AI will retrofit a ship and then leave before it finished repairing all the damaged components it just created.
Since I've have been looking in more detail, I noticed a pattern the Last few time the AI has done this. It does the retrofit, waits a single turn for any repair work, then sends the ship off for duty. The ships then fly around damaged trying to perform their normal role like nothing is wrong with them.

Problem/Bug 8)
Most ships seems to understand when they are running out of supply except colony ships. Those are really important ships not to stop off and resupply before travelling across the entire quadrant. Is there any trick (before solar collectors make it unecessary) to get them to stop and resupply at a forward system and then go off and colonize.

Problem/Bug 9)
Any way to force the AI to do engine retrofits at planets with both a shipyard AND a resupply base? For instance, is there a way to get it to build a resupply base (even though it wants to put only one per system) on every planet with a shipyard?
Ships with supply storage components at least still have some supply, so this helps this problem some. The only really bad problem is then colony ships because as I mentioned above in 8), colony ships never try to resupply. Even if they retrofit engines at a non-resupply base and have only 500 supply from their supply storage they still head (very SLOWLY) accross the entire quadrant!First all, want to say that I'm not claim to have the absolute TRUTH, right? But will try to answer your questions:

Bug/Problem 3).
Think doesn't exist a way to avoid this problem.

Bug/Problem 6).
Never liked the Transport hulls. Think is a question of taste!
Usually they're more slow moving, and slow to build than the standard
ships.
Then, my AIs use standard hulls to work as transport/layers/sweepers.
etc (also, I can include a few weapons that can help sometimes to extend
their life).
Question: for what do you want a Transport working as layer for
the AI??? Many times (specially in late game when the large mines are
slow to build), I saw the layers with a cargo of 5 or 10 mines...

Bug/Problem 7).
Design ships with Component Repairs, that will work as support ships in
your fleets. They will repair your ships.
If you are really worried about the crippled ships, then increase the
Repair rate when you design your AI...

Bug/Problem 8)
- Research Solar Collectors, think is fairly easy for the unmoded game.
- Before research this tech, you could use LC colony ships with many
supply components.
- Don't pick Ancient Race for the AI. If the AI doesn't know far systems,
will not try to colonize it!
- Don't allow to the AI sign Partnerships! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif For the same reason of above!

Bug/Problem 9)
Think already was answered.
In the unmoded doesn't exist a way to have more than 1 resupply facility
per system... and if you want my opinion, I like this way.

Rollo

June 17th, 2003, 01:12 AM

Originally posted by oleg:
I do not think "supply generation" is limited one per system. Or is it ? Does AI treat "supply generation" as a some sort of system-wide ability ? I doubt it very much. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif well, in standard SE4 the AI builds only one resupply depot per system. So yes, Suppply Generation does have some sort of hardcode like system wide facilities.
A very good thing to avoid excess facilities to save slots and resources, IMO.

Rollo

JLS

June 17th, 2003, 04:14 PM

Originally posted by cybersol:
5) AI_CONSTRUCTION_VEHICLES.TXT. It seems in my experience that you get a more even distribution of ships if you add multiple copies of the exact same entry (colony ships in exploration for example). For example, build some colony ships, build some attack ships, build colony ships again to replace, build support ships, build colony ships again to replace, etc. My guess is that if the hardcode is at entry 12 in this file, then it goes to 13 when it finishes 12 without looking at 1-11 again until the next time it arrives at them by going around one at a time through the loop. How do you think it works?

Originally posted by cybersol:
5) I was just plain wrong. The construction_vehicles file reads from top to bottom inside the current state everytime it wants to construct something.

Well, the file doesn't work the way I thinking when I asked question five. MB and some further testing cleared it up though. Here is how it works. Every turn the AI goes to the top of the queue in construction_vehilces for whatever AI state you are in presently. "Exploration" for instance. It reads entry 1, adding whatever is needed to the build queue of some world. If you still have resources and more build queue slots then it goes to entry 2. So it starts at the top and goes down every turn. Thus a redundant call, say build ten colony ships at entry 1 and again at entry 4, has no value and is just redundant. Because every turn the first entry causes it to fill the build queues to have 10 colony ships total the second entry has no effect. But a second call to build 20 colony ships at entry 4 would then add 10 more if there were build slots available after 1-3.
I agree Cybersol, MOD PACKS need and most have Parameters for new additions of an AI.

To introduce a new AI that makes 5-10 Colonizers, starting from the First turn of the game, and with the other original AI is set for 3 for example, then, that at AI will be unbalanced. Having an adverse effect on the entire Mod ,and the Human Player will have a very tough time trying to compete for Planets if as you say; "this AI introduced 10 to 20 Colonizers", at jump.

For example, the only losses expect in the AI strategic State of Explore and/or Not Connected may be:

1: Bad Warp Point, in the extreme.
2: A black Hole type System
3: An improbable AI abandonment.
4: And most important the AI Colonizer dissolving into a Colony.

Please Consider this.

Se4 Default_AI_Construction_Vehicles
AI State := Exploration
Num Queue Entries := 15
Entry 1 Type := Attack Ship
Entry 1 Planet Per Item := 50
Entry 1 Must Have At Least := 2
Entry 2 Type := Weapon Platform
Entry 2 Planet Per Item := 0
Entry 2 Must Have At Least := 2
Entry 3 Type := Satellite
Entry 3 Planet Per Item := 0
Entry 3 Must Have At Least := 2
Entry 4 Type := Mine Sweeper
Entry 4 Planet Per Item := 200
Entry 4 Must Have At Least := 1
Entry 5 Type := Colonizer
Entry 5 Planet Per Item := 30
Entry 5 Must Have At Least := 2
~
~
Above may result, in a Burden to the Human Player or a Gas/Ice AI; if the above AI is Rock and has many Planets nearby. PPI = 30 resulting in 3 Colonizers at 4-6 Planets, 10 Colonizers when a Rock AI reachs 31 Planets
=================================================

With a Staggered Colonizer grouping, the results can be controlled for this AI, by the designer. For example: Proportions Abbidon_AI_Construction_Vehicles
Entry 1 Type := Missile Base
Entry 1 Planet Per Item := 0
Entry 1 Must Have At Least := 1
Entry 2 Type := Ship Yard
Entry 2 Planet Per Item := 0
Entry 2 Must Have At Least := 2
Entry 3 Type := Colonizer
Entry 3 Planet Per Item := 0
Entry 3 Must Have At Least := 1
Entry 4 Type := Ship Yard
Entry 4 Planet Per Item := 0
Entry 4 Must Have At Least := 3
Entry 5 Type := Scout
Entry 5 Planet Per Item := 0
Entry 5 Must Have At Least := 4
Entry 6 Type := Defense Ship
Entry 6 Planet Per Item := 80
Entry 6 Must Have At Least := 3
Entry 7 Type := Colonizer
Entry 7 Planet Per Item := 0
Entry 7 Must Have At Least := 2
~
~
Entry 15 Type := Colonizer
Entry 15 Planet Per Item := 0
Entry 15 Must Have At Least := 3

The Colonizer (entry #3 :=1), (entry #7 :=2 ) and (entry #15 :=3) does not add up to a total of 6 Colonizers to be built at any times in the explore state. And it will be rare for this AI, to build another, until there is less then 3 colonizers in the Air and that will be at (entry #15) in this way the Abbidon will not to put a burden on the Human Player at any point in the Proportions Opening Game Explore State that this Abbidon AI will participate.
=
In the Abbidon illustration, the AI will want a First line defensive Weapons Platform (entry#1), followed by two Productive Shipyards (entry#2). Then the build of ONE Colonizer (entry#3) will be issued to the (HW Ship yard) at this point as set up by myself in v1.78 se4 Proportions Mod.

With the third BSY (entry #4) and four Scouts (entry #5) following this one Colonizer (entry#3), the Colonizers first Planet to Colonize has a high probability to be in the Home System allowing for some Quick Production or a Racial Facility to boast that Home System, primarily.
If this was the Case, the Colonizer did land in the Home System then another Colonizer for an existing total of ZERO, will be Issued for the next available BSY, (v1.78 se4) to fulfill the plan of ONE at this point in the Explore State, AI Game.

Now, three Defense ships (entry #6) will be built as the four Scouts (entry #5) are exploring nearby Systems. The 3 Defense ships WILL defend the Colony Built by the First Colonizer, and will also yield and maintain a boost in Happiness for this new Colony.

By the time, the next Planet to Colonize by the AI is found from the tasks of the pre built Scouts (entry #5). The Colonizer built, either by the; On Station or Replaced, Colonizer (entry #3) or the newly introduced second Colonizer (entry # 7) the expansion process is well under way, and can be Controlled with balance for all AI race types; whether Rock, Gas or Ice by the AI designer http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Also, please refer to Proportions; Rock type, Cue Cappa...
------
Note: Reference to v1.78 se4, is that the Priorities for the AI Home World, switch to the AI Unit Build File, may have changed in v1.84 se4, changing the initial Construction sequence of that Abbidon Spring 2002, Vehicle Build File.
-------

I believe multiple Type Ship and Base entries, if thought out and tested, is very effective in the process that Aaron Hall has made available to the AI designers http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ June 17, 2003, 16:37: Message edited by: JLS ]

cybersol

June 17th, 2003, 09:48 PM

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Rollo:
well, in standard SE4 the AI builds only one resupply depot per system. So yes, Suppply Generation does have some sort of hardcode like system wide facilities.
A very good thing to avoid excess facilities to save slots and resources, IMO.

RolloI agree with you.
Honestly, I prefer that the AI retrofit the engines of a ship into a planet without Resupply Depot, than keep more than one Resupply Depot per system.<hr /></blockquote>I agree in general you want one resupply depot per system on your normal colony types. Sometimes you may want an additional one though, say on a construction yard type planet. The ability in proportions to call for the system ability with Supply Generation and for extras by Emergency Resupply is probably the most flexible solution if you are modding the data files.

cybersol

June 17th, 2003, 10:11 PM

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
First all, want to say that I'm not claim to have the absolute TRUTH, right? But will try to answer your questions:

Bug/Problem 3).
Think doesn't exist a way to avoid this problem.

Bug/Problem 6).
Never liked the Transport hulls. Think is a question of taste!
Usually they're more slow moving, and slow to build than the standard
ships.
Then, my AIs use standard hulls to work as transport/layers/sweepers.
etc (also, I can include a few weapons that can help sometimes to extend
their life).
Question: for what do you want a Transport working as layer for
the AI??? Many times (specially in late game when the large mines are
slow to build), I saw the layers with a cargo of 5 or 10 mines...

Bug/Problem 7).
Design ships with Component Repairs, that will work as support ships in
your fleets. They will repair your ships.
If you are really worried about the crippled ships, then increase the
Repair rate when you design your AI...

Bug/Problem 8)
- Research Solar Collectors, think is fairly easy for the unmoded game.
- Before research this tech, you could use LC colony ships with many
supply components.
- Don't pick Ancient Race for the AI. If the AI doesn't know far systems,
will not try to colonize it!
- Don't allow to the AI sign Partnerships! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif For the same reason of above!

Bug/Problem 9)
Think already was answered.
In the unmoded doesn't exist a way to have more than 1 resupply facility
per system... and if you want my opinion, I like this way.Bug/Problem 3a)
Yeah the only solution I see is to use designs with rapidly changing tech so they will always be different. I have done this for now.
Bug/Problem 3b)
You could make sure the lowest tech Version of a ship and the highest tech Version of a ship class are with 50% cost of each other. But this TOO limiting in the mid-game IMHO. So I am just going to live with this one for now.

Bug/Problem 6)
I would like to use transport extra hull size in the early game. But I would like them to design the type of ship I can build as a human. For instance, a medium transport hull with 16 mine layer components and one cargo storage. If it can find enough mines it can mine a warp point almost to maximum in just 3 trips. When you still only have LC tech. They are only as fast as a battleship though.

Bug/Problem 7).
Yeah, I have repair based support ships. But those do not help colony ships, scouts, layers, etc.

Bug/Problem 8)
Thanks, really good suggestions here. I also had decided to move solar supply research forward and add significantly more supply to my larger colony ships. The supply helps a lot, I highly recommend it for bigger maps with fewer players. Your AI will easily out expand another AI that has its colony ships bogged down.

cybersol

June 17th, 2003, 10:37 PM

Originally posted by JLS:
I believe multiple Type Ship and Base entries, if thought out and tested, is very effective in the process that Aaron Hall has made available to the AI designersI agree, and as your example illustrates it is critical to control and properly formulate the initial exploration and not connected construction queues. In the unmodded game, though, I recommened a lot more colony ships because the humans will be expanding rapidly as well. Most AI modders put some attention into early construction already, though.

What I have not seen as much is using these same capabilities to better handle the various resource bonus games available. I like the idea of copying the entire heart of the build queue multiple times, doubling production for each copy. This better allows the AI to build up even force compositions in both the zero bonus and higher bonus states. I've seen this build up limited to attack ships in most TDM type AI's. IMHO, why not extend the idea and build up the whole construction queue.

JLS

June 18th, 2003, 02:53 AM

I like the idea of copying the entire heart of the build queue multiple times, doubling production for each copy. This better allows the AI to build up even force compositions in both the zero bonus and higher bonus states. I've seen this build up limited to attack ships in most TDM type AI's. IMHO, why not extend the idea and build up the whole construction queue.
This would result in a more intimidating AI earlier, my concern would be maintenance for the None and Low Bonus Games, the AI may not have enough resources, this would need to be tested and calabrated, but the result may be even a less intimidating AI in the Mid to end game.

Cybersol, what are the thoughts of the new way the AI is hard coded to use Population Transports for the se4 minister change?

cybersol

June 18th, 2003, 04:16 AM

Originally posted by JLS:
This would result in a more intimidating AI earlier, my concern would be maintenance for the None and Low Bonus Games, the AI may not have enough resources, this would need to be tested and calabrated, but the result may be even a less intimidating AI in the Mid to end game.

Cybersol, what are the thoughts of the new way the AI is hard coded to use Population Transports for the se4 minister change?If you have good ratios like 1 support ship for every 4 attack ships, and maintain that through all the doublings of the queue, then I don't see how you sacrifice late game performance. In fact where most empires just stop building quickly at higher bonuses in the late game, this should keep the AI always churning out more ships. And like a human player, you then end up utilizing most or all of your shipyards right up to the point maintenance becomes a problem. As maintenance becomes a problem the Maximum Maintenance Percent of Revenue kicks in and slows the building down. And because the queues are repeated evenly, you end up with a nice consistent force composition no matter when maintenance becomes a problem.

I am not aware of minister change you are refering to. Please tell me more about it. I played before 1.84 but I never got into modding the AI or using the ministers before then. I tried to search for more information, but all I found was a vague note in history.txt for 1.82.

JLS

June 18th, 2003, 06:17 PM

Originally posted by cybersol:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JLS:
This would result in a more intimidating AI earlier, my concern would be maintenance for the None and Low Bonus Games, the AI may not have enough resources, this would need to be tested and calabrated, but the result may be even a less intimidating AI in the Mid to end game.

Cybersol, what are the thoughts of the new way the AI is hard coded to use Population Transports for the se4 minister change?If you have good ratios like 1 support ship for every 4 attack ships, and maintain that through all the doublings of the queue, then I don't see how you sacrifice late game performance. In fact where most empires just stop building quickly at higher bonuses in the late game, this should keep the AI always churning out more ships. And like a human player, you then end up utilizing most or all of your shipyards right up to the point maintenance becomes a problem. As maintenance becomes a problem the Maximum Maintenance Percent of Revenue kicks in and slows the building down. And because the queues are repeated evenly, you end up with a nice consistent force composition no matter when maintenance becomes a problem.

I am not aware of minister change you are refering to. Please tell me more about it. I played before 1.84 but I never got into modding the AI or using the ministers before then. I tried to search for more information, but all I found was a vague note in history.txt for 1.82.<hr /></blockquote>Agreed, the Basic maintenance considerations, would probably not be a factor in Medium and especially High AI computer Bonus games as was stated in my Post, just its concern in None to Low bonus games.
---
In regards to the loss of AI intimidation in mid to Late AI game play , overall Ship and Base Strength as it relates to score that is directly related to AI Diplomacy and the quality of the AI ship and base in itself.

If what has been posted is true, in regards to BUG 3, 3a and 3b.
And what you may be suggesting that; If the AI designer were to issue orders for the AI to build massive amounts of Ships earlier then in past designs:

Originally posted by cybersol:
What I have not seen as much is using these same capabilities to better handle the various resource bonus games available. I like the idea of copying the entire heart of the build queue multiple times, doubling production for each copy . This better allows the AI to build up even force compositions in both the zero bonus and higher bonus states. I've seen this build up limited to attack ships in most TDM type AI's. IMHO, why not extend the idea and build up the whole construction queue .
As opposed to the gradual build up in the designers Current non-Moded and original se4 designs; then wouldn�t this exasperate the 3rd Bug you mentioned?

Originally posted by cybersol: Problem/Bug 3b)
A similar bug where ships that hit the 50% retrofit limit just sit there useless trying to retrofit but failing over and over again. This happens for a long time, sometimes they switch and try to retrofit at a different ship yard with the same result.

=================================================

Follow up reference:

3) Is there anyway to stop the AI from trying to retrofit to a �newer� Version of a ship that is in fact the same as the old Version? This results in ships being wasted just sitting there and trying to be retrofitted but failing because the ships are identical.

3)As I recall, the AI ship hangs around for a short time if cannot Retrofit, plus the AI gets a neat little message it can't read http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

3) I have seen them try for a while, over and over.

3) Is there anyway to stop the AI from trying to retrofit to a �newer� Version of a ship that is in fact the same as the old Version? This results in ships being wasted just sitting there and trying to be retrofitted but failing because the ships are identical.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nope, I don't know how to do it... Think Aaron "fixed" it in several patches, but the behavior is still there.

Well, for me it tries to retrofit for 10 or more turns until finally the tech changes so the new design is different and then the ships can retrofit properly. Since posting this problem, I now run into a similar one where ships that hit the 50% retrofit limit just sit there useless trying to retrofit but failing over and over again for a long while.

In my case 10 to 50 turns depending. Longer for the 50% limit problem than for the same design problem.

Problem/Bug 3a)
Is there anyway to stop the AI from trying to retrofit to a �newer� Version of a ship that is in fact the same as the old Version? This results in ships being wasted just sitting there and trying to be retrofitted but failing because the ships are identical.

Problem/Bug 3b)
A similar bug where ships that hit the 50% retrofit limit just sit there useless trying to retrofit but failing over and over again. This happens for a long time, sometimes they switch and try to retrofit at a different ship yard with the same result.

Bug/Problem 3).
Think doesn't exist a way to avoid this problem.


[ June 18, 2003, 18:40: Message edited by: JLS ]

cybersol

June 18th, 2003, 09:27 PM

Originally posted by cybersol:
What I have not seen as much is using these same capabilities to better handle the various resource bonus games available. I like the idea of copying the entire heart of the build queue multiple times, doubling production for each copy. This better allows the AI to build up even force compositions in both the zero bonus and higher bonus states. I've seen this build up limited to attack ships in most TDM type AI's. IMHO, why not extend the idea and build up the whole construction queue. Originally posted by JLS:
Agreed, the Basic maintenance considerations, would probably not be a factor in Medium and especially High AI computer Bonus games as was stated in my Post, just its concern in None to Low bonus games.

In regards to the loss of AI intimidation in mid to Late AI game play, overall Ship and Base Strength as it relates to score that is directly related to AI Diplomacy and the quality of the AI ship and base in itself.

And what you may be suggesting that; If the AI designer were to issue orders for the AI to build massive amounts of Ships earlier then in past designs: As opposed to the gradual build up in the designers Current non-Moded and original se4 designs; then wouldn�t this exasperate the 3rd Bug you mentioned?
Ah, I think I see why we seem to be miscommunicating now. Obviously I was not clear. First of all, I am mainly advocating an EVEN build up of forces. Consider the AI in the midgame for now. Assume its in a state like defend (short term). Assume there are just three ship designs for the whole empire: colonizer, attack, and layer for example. I am saying the defend (short term) queue should look something like this:

name ppi mhal
attack 120 2
colonizer 360 1
layer 720 1
attack 60 4
colonizer 180 2
layer 360 1
attack 30 8
colonizer 90 4
layer 180 2
attack 15 16
colonizer 45 8
layer 90 4

Thus it starts out building small numbers of everything in the "right" relative ratios. Then it goes back and build more of everything in the same ratios. The top repeat is designed to handle the no bonus early game case while the bottom repeat is designed to handle the high bonus late game case.

Most people do something like this for their most important ships, say attack ships, but not for the entire line of attack, support, infrastructure, and colonizer ships.

Now in the exploration and not connected queues at the begging you have the normal build one attack ship, build one colonizer, etc. But after the initial preparations, you again have escalating copies of the heart of the build queue.

Does that explain it better? It thus builds very deliberately at first, then an even small number of all your ships, then an even medium number of all your ships, etc. Thus as long as you have resources all the shipyards will be producing full bLast. Only when the maintenance limit approaches will the AI slow down its building process. In a no bonus game it will produce a smaller number of ships and stop in the second doubled copy, but in a high bonus game it might get to the fourth or fifth doubled copy.

JLS

June 18th, 2003, 10:16 PM

Originally posted by cybersol:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by cybersol:
[qb]Ah, I think I see why we seem to be miscommunicating now. Obviously I was not clear. First of all, I am mainly advocating an EVEN build up of forces. Consider the AI in the midgame for now. Assume its in a state like defend (short term). Assume there are just three ship designs for the whole empire: colonizer, attack, and layer for example. I am saying the defend (short term) queue should look something like this:

name ppi mhal
attack 120 2
colonizer 360 1
layer 720 1
attack 60 4
colonizer 180 2
layer 360 1
attack 30 8
colonizer 90 4
layer 180 2
attack 15 16
colonizer 45 8
layer 90 4

Thus it starts out building small numbers of everything in the "right" relative ratios. Then it goes back and build more of everything in the same ratios. The top repeat is designed to handle the no bonus early game case while the bottom repeat is designed to handle the high bonus late game case.

Most people do something like this for their most important ships, say attack ships, but not for the entire line of attack, support, infrastructure, and colonizer ships.

Now in the exploration and not connected queues at the begging you have the normal build one attack ship, build one colonizer, etc. But after the initial preparations, you again have escalating copies of the heart of the build queue.

Does that explain it better? It thus builds very deliberately at first, then an even small number of all your ships, then an even medium number of all your ships, etc. Thus as long as you have resources all the shipyards will be producing full bLast. Only when the maintenance limit approaches will the AI slow down its building process. In a no bonus game it will produce a smaller number of ships and stop in the second doubled copy, but in a high bonus game it might get to the fourth or fifth doubled copy.The results are the same in respect to a quicker build up of the Ships and Base amounts, from previous se4 Designs, in the opening to mid stages of the game. Possibly, the maximum depletion of the AIs Resource Reserves, well before the latest and strongest ship designs can be built in the Mid to Late game and leading to probable exasperated retrofit problems (�50% bug3, 3a,3b�) in the Mid to late game for the old existing designs the AI built and NOT lost thru combat from the early to mid game builds.

Possibly resulting in a loss of AI intimidation in mid to Late AI game play, and overall Ship and Base Strength as it relates to score that is directly related to AI Diplomacy and the quality of the AI Ship and Base designs built, in that of itself.
=
===
=
With this aside, you are not suggesting that a Designer would start his Short Term Defense State in the manner as you described.

The objective of the AI Player, in the Short term defensive State; will be to expel the other Player out of his territory as soon as possible and for that AI Player to consider Defensive and Counter Offensive, options; thru a Strategic State Change and/or Diplomacy measures.

Colony ships would not be a good early placement in this AI Strategic State.

Even, Mine and Sat Layers would not be a good early choice unless they followed Attack Ships with a few STALL entries to increase their survivability.
=================================================
Possible early entries for the AI, Vehicle Construction File Layout for the AI Players Short Term Defense:

A much higher Attack Ship MHAL should be suggested not to mention *Displacement Attack Ship Grouping to expedite the need for a quick preemptive measure. A few Mine Sweepers /(types) also must be introduced very early if your (minefield value is :=False) , as not to have your AI, suckered into uneeded and continued losses; thru other players Minefields

Another possible, less likely to be successful scenario, in the short scope, but safer for your AI. Would be, If your Minefield Value was :=True , then you could build ALL attack ships and CV's first, and ending a preconceived fleet with many Standard Mine Sweepers, at that point your AI Players Offensive Attack Ships will be in near Position to Counter attack or in defensive actions with in, and the AI Players, latest built; Mine Sweepers will attempt to clear the way for the INITIAL Counter Offensive in the enemies terrotory.

===
=
===
*Reference:
(EE, FF, DD etc..Displacement Attack Ship Grouping. Please refer to PvK�s Proportions, and PvK�s XiChung race Design File of an Excellent if not the best; Displacement Ship Design Group, example.)

Link
> Proportions for se4 < (http://g2.latibulum.com/pvk/proportions/)

[ June 18, 2003, 23:24: Message edited by: JLS ]

cybersol

June 19th, 2003, 04:01 AM

Ah, I see more what you are saying now as well. I guess I'm not as worried about obsolete (old tech) ship designs on the battlefield. If you are at war, then there are two possibility for these obsolete ships. If they survive then your fleets must be strong enough to conquer the opposition without having the latest tech (so it doesn't matter). And if they die, then the resources are free for modern ship designs to start rolling off the line.

As for the example I gave, I was assuming for demostration purposes that only three type of ships existed (which would be a dumb thing to do, but makes the example easier to show).

JLS

June 19th, 2003, 03:18 PM

Originally posted by cybersol:
Ah, I see more what you are saying now as well. I guess I'm not as worried about obsolete (old tech) ship designs on the battlefield. If you are at war, then there are two possibility for these obsolete ships. If they survive then your fleets must be strong enough to conquer the opposition without having the latest tech (so it doesn't matter). And if they die, then the resources are free for modern ship designs to start rolling off the line.

As for the example I gave, I was assuming for demostration purposes that only three type of ships existed (which would be a dumb thing to do, but makes the example easier to show).I am not confirming what you say is true, in regards to Bug 3, 3a, and 3b.

From �your play testing trials�, and in all aspects of your Posts and the follow-up post of others, it gives the impression that your � obsolete (old tech) ship designs � may never make it to a " forward battlefield ". For this reason, that you have declared, only the Newest and Strongest designs in a fragmented fleet will do the forward fighting, as the � obsolete (old tech) ship designs � will remain in a Ship Yards "orbit for a very long while"?

Please Refer to the Follow up reference:
quotes 5 Posts down.
=
==
=

The AI Strategic State Planning and Layout is important, I posted the rebuttal only so others may understand that; your choices here, may decide the out come of that AI Players situation. A bad layout in the Short Term State (or many other AI States) may result in a prolonged and time-consuming Solid AI LT-Defense State; spelling the doom of this AI, with little hope for that AI Player changing the fortunes; of the chance for a Counter Offensive.

Also to point out the AI State Vehicle Build layout must have strong consideration as to the AI settings; you made for (Ships don't move through minefields := True or False) as well as all the other changes and/or additions you made thru the entire AI Race�s Folder
==============
Opinion only, for the need of a structured AI State plan, is outlined below:

The most forgiven AI State may be Not Connected.
The most flexible AI State may be Secure Holdings and/or Incursion.
The most, Strait forward AI State is Prepare to Attack and Attack
The most need for a meticulous planed AI State, may be explore and Infrastructure.
The most unforgiving AI State is Defend Short Term, Prepare for Defense and Defend Long Term.

[ June 19, 2003, 14:55: Message edited by: JLS ]

cybersol

June 20th, 2003, 04:06 AM

Originally posted by JLS:
I am not confirming what you say is true, in regards to Bug 3, 3a, and 3b.

From �your play testing trials�, and in all aspects of your Posts and the follow-up post of others, it gives the impression that your � obsolete (old tech) ship designs � may never make it to a " forward battlefield ". For this reason, that you have declared, only the Newest and Strongest designs in a fragmented fleet will do the forward fighting, as the � obsolete (old tech) ship designs � will remain in a Ship Yards "orbit for a very long while"?Are you saying I'm crazy and I like to make AI bugs up? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
Luckily AI bugs 3, 3a), and 3b) do not occur all that frequently. I've only seen up to about 5 ships affected simultaneously so far.

Originally posted by JLS:
The AI Strategic State Planning and Layout is important, I posted the rebuttal only so others may understand that; your choices here, may decide the out come of that AI Players situation. A bad layout in the Short Term State (or many other AI States) may result in a prolonged and time-consuming Solid AI LT-Defense State; spelling the doom of this AI, with little hope for that AI Player changing the fortunes; of the chance for a Counter Offensive.

Also to point out the AI State Vehicle Build layout must have strong consideration as to the AI settings; you made for (Ships don't move through minefields := True or False) as well as all the other changes and/or additions you made thru the entire AI Race�s Folder
==============
Opinion only, for the need of a structured AI State plan, is outlined below:

The most forgiven AI State may be Not Connected.
The most flexible AI State may be Secure Holdings and/or Incursion.
The most, Strait forward AI State is Prepare to Attack and Attack
The most need for a meticulous planed AI State, may be explore and Infrastructure.
The most unforgiving AI State is Defend Short Term, Prepare for Defense and Defend Long Term.Thanks for this great insight on AI State and its implications. I am still learning a lot here. For now, I am still using basically three build queues. One for exploration, one for not connected, and one for everything else (similar to Mephisto's AIs). I may expand on that later, but right now there are more critial areas under development.

In the meantime, why don't you explain a little more about AI state. You start out in exploration (assuming you are connected). Then encounter another empire. If they are far away, not a threat then you most likely go into infrastucture? If the are close by and maybe a threat then defend (short term)? What other state transitions are possible starting in the exploration state? The reason I ask is because it is important that my AI manage this transition from being alone in the universe to encountering another race, because right now it is very aggressive with colonization in its expansion phase (exploration state).

JLS

June 20th, 2003, 04:25 PM

I also have used a few of your Posts to redo a few changes in AIC...

EDIT:
If I came off a little scruffy, I had the flue most of Last week http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif

Thanks for this thread, Cybersol http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ June 21, 2003, 23:36: Message edited by: JLS ]

JLS

June 20th, 2003, 05:53 PM

ALL quotes: Originally posted by cybersol:

You start out in exploration (assuming you are connected).


(Yes) In the very first turn of the game. If the AI Starting HS is void of a warp point and unable to Explore and not a Ancient Race, the AI will Change to the Not Connected State.

~

Then encounter another empire. If they are far away, not a threat then you most likely go into infrastucture?

(No) The AI will remain in the Exploration State, if there are more Systems nearby still unexplored

~

If the are close by and maybe a threat then defend (short term)?


There is not a (maybe a threat), for the AI. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
Threat would be constituted, if the other Player was not in an (Right Of Passage) Agreement, that Player would be considered the (Enemy) for the sake of this discussion.

(Yes) There is an Enemy ship in your AIs Claimed territory� Your AI may Change to Defend Short Term State.

(No) If there is an Enemy Near but not in the Claimed Territory, then your AI may go into Infrastructure State
~

What other state transitions are possible starting in the exploration state?


Again, there are many possible Scenarios that can occur.

However, along with the AI Exploration State change in the Scenarios posted above. I would say the most Common would be if:

Your AI had an agreement with another Player and Your AI no longer had Systems, reasonably close to Explore, your AI would go into the Infrastructure State.

Definitions.

AI Exploration Strategic State:
This is where the AI; will explore new worlds and seek out new life, and boldly go where no other, AI has gone before.

On the serious side, your AI is expected to colonize more in this AI Exploration State and the Secure Holdings State then any other State.
However, it is recommended the Designers; AI Colonizer Production, stay within the Parameters of the MOD he, or she is designing for.
The finished product, in my opinion. Would be measured not how your AI competes against another AI, but how that AI deals and interacts with a Human Player http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
-
AI Infrastructure Strategic State:
This is where the AI, will build up its Infrastructure, to setup Passive defenses and to Start long term Projects. Example: Non-Offensive Stellar Manipulation devises and other Vehicles that would require a long and extensive build process.
-
AI Defend Short Term Strategic State:
This would be the first stage for the AI Player, to boot the other Enemy player out of his territory and for that AI to analyze its current Status for that current Situation.
-
AI Not Connected Strategic State:
This AI Player has colonized all of its available systems, and this AI player is currently disconnected from other systems in the Quadrant.
The basic goal for the AI here is to Research Techs that will Colonize new Planet types, open news Warps, Create new Planets and to stay competitive with its own Ship Designs, so when the Warp is opened; this AI has not opened Pandora�s Box http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ June 24, 2003, 04:52: Message edited by: JLS ]

JLS

June 22nd, 2003, 12:28 AM

Originally posted by JLS:
Regarding mine sweepers and cloasks).I don't see why not. I need and will test this, for both of us, I use this for 2 or 3 AI designs.
 Originally posted by cybersol:
Scout and Colony ships with mine sweeping and cloak died horribly without sweeping any of the mines. Mine sweepers will de-cloak for a previously marked mine field, but then they will cloak and move forward and happily die without sweeping any mines on the next warp point that has not been marked. So it sort of works for mine sweepers, but not at all for the rest.

Cybersol, thanks for the tip.
I was able to change a few things around in a few of the AIC designs in this Last Version http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Again, thanks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ June 21, 2003, 23:30: Message edited by: JLS ]

cybersol

June 22nd, 2003, 05:55 AM

Originally posted by JLS:
Cybersol, thanks for the tip.
I was able to change a few things around in a few of the AIC designs in this Last Version http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Again, thanks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I'm glad you found something I wrote useful, because you have been much more helpful to me in my AI design efforts.

Originally posted by cybersol:
What other state transitions are possible starting in the exploration state?
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Reply posted by JLS:
Again, there are many possible Scenarios that can occur.

However, along with the AI Exploration State change in the Scenarios posted above. I would say the most Common would be if:

Your AI had an agreement with another Player and Your AI no longer had Systems, reasonably close to Explore, your AI would go into the Infrastructure State.<hr /></blockquote>How would the AI go from Exploration to Prepare for Attack? Or to Incursion?

When is Prepare for Defense used?

How long do Prepare for Attack and Prepare for Defense typically Last?

Master Belisarius

June 22nd, 2003, 04:11 PM

Originally posted by cybersol:
How would the AI go from Exploration to Prepare for Attack? Or to Incursion?
When is Prepare for Defense used?
How long do Prepare for Attack and Prepare for Defense typically Last?Good questions... and I have only a few answers.

Defend Short Term: The most important thing, is know that 95% of the time during the game, the AI is under the "Defend (Short Term)"...
IF the AI see a enemy ship into a system where the AI have a single planet, then the AI will change to "Defend (Short Term)".

Exploration: the AI always start into the Exploration state until the first contact. The AI could move again to the Exploration state, after some time without see ships/planets of another race.

Infraestructure: can remember that Aaron said that the AI move to Infraestructure state, after a long time without change the current state.

When Gold was near to be released, some beta testers had a chat into a Shrapnel forum with Aaron (I was unable to be Online when this happened http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif ). Can remember that Aaron did a post explaining how the AI change the state, but now this forum was erased.

Anyway IMHO, because the AI most the time will be into the Defense Short Term (and exploration in the early game), the modder should consider the these states as the most importants.

JLS

June 22nd, 2003, 06:37 PM

Originally posted by cybersol:

How would the AI go from Exploration to Prepare for Attack? Or to Incursion?
Assuming no changes from se4 Version 1.78
============================

On average the most AI State Changes, from the Exploration State is to:
1: Defend Short Term State
2: Infrastructure State
3: Not Connected State

Ok, from the first Exploration State; your AI just went into Infrastructure State, as we have previously discussed, by either (A)or(B)

A: Your AI had an agreement with another Player and Your AI no longer had Systems, reasonably close to Explore, your AI would go into the Infrastructure State.

If (A) was the only Variable, the AI or AI�s will live happily ever-after. Remain in Infrastructure and (may) Consider Not Connected State, at some point.

However, ALL: AI Settings Files, Anger Files, Politics Files and Accept Treaties; WILL always be in play. It is probable at some point, that/those AI may not like; living happily ever-after forever, and break the (Existing Treaty with the other Original Player)

===

B: If there is an Enemy Near but not in the Claimed Territory, then your AI may go into Infrastructure State

If (B) is the only variable to consider, and other Player had no agreement, then from the Infrastructure State.

If the Enemy Players System are Nearby, the AI may Consider the Prepare Attack State then to consider the actual * Attack State.
(This is why continuing a new game, when you start next to Psychos, like the XiChung; is not usually a winnable choice, in any se4 Game)
-
The AI may just consider the Incursion State early with a quick Muster, if that AI considers the enemies systems, is not well defended.
---
(C):The AI (may) Consider a Prepare for Defense State.
If the (adjacent system vs. Home/System) Ship strength numbers are not even near favorable
====
((D)): If your AI, IS IN any State mentioned above, and ANY ENEMY Player has entered your territory, then your AI WILL Change to Defend Short Term State for a few turns :

Your AI will now; analyze its current Situation, IF-THEN :

IF enemy is still in its territory after a few turns go by, it will remain in the Defend Short Term State * that may continue to * Prepare for Defense State, and in the end; to Defend (Long Term) State. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
-----
Until:
(E) Enemy is NOT IN that AI�s territory and there are NO Systems to Explore; then your AI may revert to the ~(B) Infrastructure State

FROM (E)to(B)THEN and IF , Enough time since the Last Attack has passed from your AI Settings File (XiChung @ Turns to Wait until next attack := 6) then your AI WILL consider from (B) Infrastructure State again, for an Attack or an Incursion

(F) However, from Defend Short Term, if no enemy is in that AI territory, or nearby and there are Systems to Explore still; then your AI may revert all the way back to the Exploration State and start the above process, from the Scenario you presented; all over again.

========================================

* ~Tip~ * (IMO) To maintain the continuity and the transition to the next AI State; designers may want to stay with the default format intact for both:

AI State := Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term), Defend (Long Term)

(AND)

AI State := Prepare for Attack, Attack

---
Also (IMO FWIW):
Absolutely, a deviation from the from the above Format, may yield some FUNKY results, but this may also, lead to a distortion of the intended MODs, logical and total Combat (or Design TYPE) Ship totals.
It may also lead, to the dreaded Defend (Long Term) or just to stay stuck in Defend (Short Term); and/or resulting in no logic.
===========================================

Definitions and Actions:

AI Defend Short Term Strategic State:
This would be the first stage for the AI Player, to boot the other Enemy player out of his territory and for that AI to analyze its current Status for that current Situation
(Continues for about 5 turns. Then this AI will make a decisive decision; for the next State Change) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
As outlined in ((D)),(E), and (F).
-

AI Prepare to Attack State:
AI considers a nearby enemy system is weak and could be conquered. Your AI will now prepare a Fleet/Fleets and get ready to attack that system.

AI Attack State:
Your AI will now consider this to be a valid and doable Attack, if so, then the AI will attack that Enemy System and attempt to conquer it.

In both the above, Prepare for Attack, Attack States, your AI has some save guards, so your AI may revert to various other states, however, the State you DO want to see, as the next change, is the:

Secure Holdings State
Your AI�s attack has been completed and it was VICTORIOUS. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Your AI will send in ships to secure the system (a few pre-built defense ships will do well here, if any planets were captured +Happy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif , and your AI will now want to colonize any empty planets� http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
This is were your next best Colony Expansion Policy, should reap, the next best and safest rewards http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

When in the Secure Holdings State and that newly conquered System is now totally secured; your AI will revert back to ~(B) Infrastructure State...
And your AI, may start the process all over again, begining from ~(B) Infrastructure State http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Also note: If any Enemy enters any Territory, also from the Secure Holdings State.
Your AI will revert, briefly; to the ((D)) AI Defend Short Term Strategic State:
To re-evaluate
===
END
===
After over 6 hours, with this post. I think, I thought; every thing, trough http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
=
==
=
Any questions, please don�t hesitate to ask.

[ June 24, 2003, 02:07: Message edited by: JLS ]

JLS

June 22nd, 2003, 09:18 PM

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:

Defend Short Term: The most important thing
Absolutely MB, I agree. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
This is by far the most Critical of all the States to set up.

Actually the entire Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term) upto the Defend (Long Term) AI State falls under this need, for that AI; to do its best to oust the intruder; ASAP. (*See Note)

If it is unable, this AI has, in essence; resigned, to defend it-self with a costly, Defend (Long Term) State http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
=
==
=
(*Note):
Without this AI designer, distorting and/or undermining the se4 or MODS, LOGICAL total Combat(or Design TYPE) Ship PPI and MHAL Parameters.

[ June 22, 2003, 23:27: Message edited by: JLS ]

cybersol

June 23rd, 2003, 10:44 AM

MB and JLS, thanks for both of your very helpful comments explaining more about AI state to me. I am beginning to have enough of an understanding to break out construction queues in more detail. Here are my thoughts so far.

Right now I'm using these 3 groupings:
Exploration

Not Connected

Infrastructure, Prepare for Attack, Attack, Incursion, Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term), Defend (Long Term), Secure Holdings After Attack

I'm considering the following 6 groupings:
Exploration

Not Connected

Infrastructure

Secure Holdings After Attack

Prepare for Attack, Attack, Incursion

Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term), Defend (Long Term)

In the new groupings, I broke out Exploration and Not Connected for critical early game considerations. I broke out infrastructure because its the only relatively peaceful mid-game state. I broke out secure holdings after attack to emphasize a little extra colonization (but not as much as exploration), and with expectations of another attack soon. Finally I group the aggressive states together, and the defensive states together.

What do you guys think of those 6 groupings?

JLS

June 23rd, 2003, 08:52 PM

Originally posted by Rollo:

5) everything else - don't bother with this queue too much. Other AI states than the ones already covered are very rare.

Hope this helps,
RolloI do not under stand, Rollo, What other AI state Changes are you referring to, and what event or other, would make it very rare?

[ June 23, 2003, 19:53: Message edited by: JLS ]

JLS

June 23rd, 2003, 08:58 PM

Originally posted by cybersol:
I'm considering the following 6 groupings:
Exploration

Not Connected

Infrastructure

Secure Holdings After Attack

Prepare for Attack, Attack, Incursion

Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term), Defend (Long Term)

In the new groupings, I broke out Exploration and Not Connected for critical early game considerations. I broke out infrastructure because its the only relatively peaceful mid-game state. I broke out secure holdings after attack to emphasize a little extra colonization (but not as much as exploration), and with expectations of another attack soon. Finally I group the aggressive states together, and the defensive states together.

What do you guys think of those 6 groupings?This may work for you, Cybersol. And you have the most critical States covered: Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term), Defend (Long Term)
=
What (MAY or MAY NOT) prove to be problematic, is the AI in its pocket, has specific safe guards, for some specific events or order of events; in each specific State.

It will always be a wonder, if the AI did and has followed all the possable, reactionary State Changes and logic.

More fuel for thought http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

AI State := Secure Holdings After Attack, Incursion

The interesting aspect of the default combined AI strategic state of Secure Holdings After Attack and Incursion, is that in in both these States, your AI will immediately MUSTER ships that are already available, to include the ships that are already nearby for your AI to direct towards that TARGETED system.
All in the same while, your AIs Ship Yards are cranking out the needed support ships and replacements for either mission, and if you really think about it. Both missions require the exact same needs.
=
Please consider:
For the Attack, your AI�s is required to: Prepare First, long before the actual Commitment will be made on an Attack State; for that AI's already been pre-determined, enemy targeted System.

Once Prepaired, and the forces are ready to attack. The AI WILL now evaluate if this Attack is still valid: and if so, then commit to the; AI Attack State.

To name a few COMMON events/safe gaurds, your AI WILL evaluate:
1: Is the target system even good anymore.
2: Is there enough ships to make this attack.
3: Can Target system still be conquered.
4: Fleet/System build up, is it (valid).
5: Does it have enough ships to continue this attack.
6: Too long in this state.

Please also consider, your AI may be taking on a big objective, so your AI will Prepare needed Attack Ships, loaded CVs, loaded Troop Ships and Mine Sweepers. In the Prepare State. Then after the deed is done and you should win, A few colony ships, layers, Pop Transports, etc. will only then be required.
====

I would consider the basic mission needs, and compare them.

Secure Holdings After Attack, Incursion. Both here require a quick strike with a few assets and the need for speedy reinforcements.

[ June 23, 2003, 23:03: Message edited by: JLS ]

Rollo

June 23rd, 2003, 10:05 PM

Originally posted by JLS:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Rollo:

5) everything else - don't bother with this queue too much. Other AI states than the ones already covered are very rare.

Hope this helps,
RolloI do not under stand, Rollo, What other AI state Changes are you referring to, and what event or other, would make it very rare?<hr /></blockquote>I am referring to the AI states that were not covered in queues 1) - 4). Namely: Secure Holdings After Attack, Incursion, Prepare for Defense, Defend (Long Term). I have seen the AI very rarely (if ever) in these states. When I say rare I mean less than 5%.

Defend (Short Term) is the dominant AI state. Infrastructure is second. Occasionally the AI goes to 'Prepare for Attack' and 'Attack' after that.

Rollo

[ June 23, 2003, 21:08: Message edited by: Rollo ]

JLS

June 23rd, 2003, 10:56 PM

Originally posted by Rollo:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JLS:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Rollo:

5) everything else - don't bother with this queue too much. Other AI states than the ones already covered are very rare.

Hope this helps,
RolloI do not under stand, Rollo, What other AI state Changes are you referring to, and what event or other, would make it very rare?<hr /></blockquote>I am referring to the AI states that were not covered in queues 1) - 4). Namely: Secure Holdings After Attack, Incursion, Prepare for Defense, Defend (Long Term). I have seen the AI very rarely (if ever) in these states. When I say rare I mean less than 5%.

Defend (Short Term) is the dominant AI state. Infrastructure is second. Occasionally the AI goes to 'Prepare for Attack' and 'Attack' after that.

Rollo<hr /></blockquote>Rollo,
What Vehicle Construction File of your design, would you suggest be referenced, as it involves the less dominate AI states. Namely: Secure Holdings After Attack, Incursion, Prepare for Defense, Defend (Long Term).

JLS

June 23rd, 2003, 10:56 PM

I have TDM (AI CONSTRUCTION VEHICLES DATA FILE - Cue Cappa)

Rollo,
Would this be your design to reference?

[ June 23, 2003, 22:32: Message edited by: JLS ]

Rollo

June 23rd, 2003, 11:58 PM

Well, the Cue Cappa are a rather old AI. I think the best reference of my design would newer designs like the TDM United Flora or any of the newer Devnull Mod AI (United Flora, Sonne, Xi'Chung, Ukratal).

JLS

June 24th, 2003, 12:04 AM

Thanks, Rollo http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

cybersol

June 24th, 2003, 12:21 AM

Originally posted by Rollo:
I would suggest the following groupings:
1) Exploration

2) Infrastructure, Defend (Short Term) - this is your main game plan. Depending on the plan for your AI you could include Exploration as well. I have done that a couple of times lately.

3) Prepare for Attack, Attack - I use this mainly to churn out warships and with higher priority for troops and transports. But it really depends on the overall strategy of your AI what you do here exactly. High priority for fighters, carriers and fleet support ships also work good here as well as building more mine sweepers. Like I said, it mainly depends on the AI game plan.

4) Not Connected - Besides from the obvious Open Warp Point ship also make one Create Planet ship.

5) everything else - don't bother with this queue too much. Other AI states than the ones already covered are very rare.

Hope this helps,
RolloI had noticed this pattern in your UF, Vikings, and Cue Cappa. Thanks for interpreting it and telling me the logic behind it.

I was going to separate Defend (Short Term) from Infrastructure because the former implies a slight to moderate enemy presence while the later implies relative peace. When I actually get down to the details though, the queues might be similar enough to merge.

Also, I think JLS makes a good point about needing a few extra colony ships fast for the brief period you are in the Secure Holdings after Attack. Although it's a rare state, it only takes a minor effort to copy the attack queue and move colonization up in priority and location. (Feel like I need to thank gandalph again for giving me the link to renumber.exe, what a time saver).

cybersol

June 24th, 2003, 12:36 AM

Originally posted by JLS:
More fuel for thought
AI State := Secure Holdings After Attack, Incursion

The interesting aspect of the default combined AI strategic state of Secure Holdings After Attack and Incursion, is that in in both these States, your AI will immediately MUSTER ships that are already available, to include the ships that are already nearby for your AI to direct towards that TARGETED system.
All in the same while, your AIs Ship Yards are cranking out the needed support ships and replacements for either mission, and if you really think about it. Both missions require the exact same needs .
Could you elaborate on this, JLS? As I understand it now, the Secure state is to move into a conquered AI system, take hold and make it your own. Hopefully the AI is also priming for another prepare/attack/secure sequence of events. As such I was thinking of a queue similar to the attack states, but with a little bit more colonization.

The incursion state I thought was like a minor harrasment of the enemy. I grouped this with the more aggressive attack states because if I have the power to harass, I want to build up the power to attack. Hopefully more force will enable the AI to go through an attack instead of just an incursion. However, does a switch to incursion occur when I want to flood and co-colonize an enemy system? Only then can I see it being so similar to the Secure State, but again I would probably prefer to attack it if possible.

Rollo

June 24th, 2003, 01:46 AM

I would suggest the following groupings:
1) Exploration

2) Infrastructure, Defend (Short Term) - this is your main game plan. Depending on the plan for your AI you could include Exploration as well. I have done that a couple of times lately.

3) Prepare for Attack, Attack - I use this mainly to churn out warships and with higher priority for troops and transports. But it really depends on the overall strategy of your AI what you do here exactly. High priority for fighters, carriers and fleet support ships also work good here as well as building more mine sweepers. Like I said, it mainly depends on the AI game plan.

4) Not Connected - Besides from the obvious Open Warp Point ship also make one Create Planet ship.

5) everything else - don't bother with this queue too much. Other AI states than the ones already covered are very rare.

Hope this helps,
Rollo

[ June 23, 2003, 14:17: Message edited by: Rollo ]

JLS

June 24th, 2003, 04:39 AM

Originally posted by cybersol:

JLS?
As I understand it now, the Secure state is to move into a conquered AI system, take hold and make it your own.
TRUE

Hopefully the AI is also priming for another prepare/attack/secure sequence of events. As such I was thinking of a queue similar to the attack states, but with a little bit more colonization.
You did not present a scenario here, but from the Secure Holdings State, and your AI Targets system has been secured:

-

Please refer to Definitions and Actions.

When in the Secure Holdings State and that newly conquered System is now totally secured; your AI will revert back to ~(B) Infrastructure State...
And your AI, may start the process all over again, beginning from ~(B) Infrastructure State

-

The incursion state I thought was like a minor harrasment of the enemy.
True, at any and or ALL Enemies Systems/Territories of opportunity; with only a few parameters and safeguards.

I want to build up the power to attack. Hopefully more force will enable the AI to go through an attack instead of just an incursion.
The results with the set up you have would be interesting.

Please remember, Prepare to Attack will only be triggered if there is a vulnerable target System near. IIRC, (Not more 2 systems away). As not to string out the AI fleets.
However, In the Prepare to Attack State; Your AI needs to prepare your Attack Fleets with all the needed ships for that Attack, to fulfill at least these two requirements

1: Forces are now ready to attack
2: Target System can be conquered
Just for the minimum chance to get to the, Attack State

I am unsure of how many base yards you will be operating, with your se4 AI. Could you indicate the expected amount? After the first 51 turns, but before the 70th Turn? (2 BSY or 3)
Attack Ships (many)
Units (optional, but recommended)
Carrier (loaded)
Troop Transport (loaded)
Drone Carrier (loaded) (if desired)
Kamikaze Attack Ship/Aux
Boarding Ship/Aux
Mine Sweeper (placement depends on AI Settings)

Support Ships
Colonizer: (IMO) Not a priority in the Attack States at least one, late.
Layers: not recommended at all.

This, all must be done with out taking to long to prepare.

Now for the actual Attack State to take, your AI must pass the requirements in the Previous post.
=
Sorry, it took so many words to get to this point. With to few words in the First post, on Incursion.

If you have the Incursion State with the Attack State, this does not mean your AI State will automatically change to the Attack State, and you may already no this, sorry, if that was the case.
You will remain in the Incursion State and build every ship on this Prepare to Attack list.
Until:
For a your worse case scenario.Lets not consider, Defend Short Term State, were an enemy entered your territory.
1: Enemy forces destroyed and you win.
2: Target system to well defended, and you lose.
There is no time limit in this State.
Therefore, you will build what ever is on that Prepare to Attack State, List. In addition, to all this implies. Until, condition One or Two is meet, this may be awhile and you really may not of needed many if any of these builds to complete the Incursion mission/s.
Because the AI, all ready calculated, to use what localized Ship or Ships it had available to it, when it decided, this attempt to wreak havoc, with-in the enemies Territories.

However, does a switch to incursion occur when I want to flood and co-colonize an enemy system? No, a switch, to the Incursion, will only happen, as I posted below from Scenario (B) Infrastructure.
===
When either 1 or 2 is satisfied:
1: Enemy forces destroyed and you win.
2: Target system to well defended, and you lose.
Your, AI will revert from Incursion State back to (B) Infrastructure State and may reconsider another Incursion, or even a Prepare Attack;
When,
-

� Enough time since the Last Attack has passed from your AI Settings File (XiChung @ Turns to Wait until next attack := 6) then your AI WILL consider from (B) Infrastructure State again, for an Attack or an Incursion�

-
And now, that you just invested, in Actuality a Prepare for attack (when a Incursion was the call). Can you say that your AI can afford another tumble thru Prepare for Attack, again, and again? Please consider, will you have exotic ships like the Planet or System Destroyer, etc� In the Prepare for Attack.
If not, then were would you request them?

In regards to Colonizer flow after a, successful or unsuccessful Incursion. The follow-up Colonizers will come from the Infrastructure State.

You also may have colonizers that were built in your Prepare Attack,Attack,Incursion setup

Or that would have been built, with a healthy Coloizer PPI/MHAL in the:
AI State := Secure Holdings After Attack, Incursion http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Please consider the possible event that a military ally or two, could have fueled the Ships used in your AI�s incursions.

Only then can I see it being so similar to the Secure State, but again I would probably prefer to attack it if possible.
The Secure Holdings State will only arise from a newly conquered System, as a result of the Attack State. This was preceded by a Prepare for attack State; a vulnerable target System that was not more then 2 Systems away triggered that.

==

Also, please note , at some point in this AI�s game, this nearby System WILL be some Players Home System, that your AI WILL be considering the Prepare for Attack State; that may decide the game.

Alternatively, it could be your AI�s Home System, which Will be considered for a Prepare for Attack. Vulnerable and not more then 2 Systems away from another AI Player in that same (B) Infrastructure States, and now it is your AI, that WILL be considering, Prepare for Defense State; that WILL decide the game.

Believe it or not http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

=================================================

The AI strategic state of Secure Holdings After Attack and Incursion, is similar in that, both these States your AI will immediately MUSTER ships; that are already available.

One Last consideration, for this format.
AI State := Secure Holdings After Attack, Incursion

If combined, it is extreamly flexable, and often returned to by your AI http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

The only ships you really need is:
Attack Ship (a few or many)
Colonizer (on par with reasonable explore numbers)
Defense Ship (only a few light Hulled, recommended)
Units.
Mine Layer
Satellite Layer
Population Transport
A few more Attack Shps if you feel little more padding, or any builds you feel may be to your AI's best interest.

[ June 26, 2003, 12:54: Message edited by: JLS ]

JLS

June 25th, 2003, 12:17 AM

Originally posted by JLS:

============================

On average the most AI State Changes, from the Exploration State is to:
1: Defend Short Term State
2: Infrastructure State
3: Not Connected State

Ok, from the first Exploration State; your AI just went into Infrastructure State, as we have previously discussed, by either (A)or(B)

A: Your AI had an agreement with another Player and Your AI no longer had Systems, reasonably close to Explore, your AI would go into the Infrastructure State.

If (A) was the only Variable, the AI or AI�s will live happily ever-after. Remain in Infrastructure and (may) Consider Not Connected State, at some point.

However, ALL: AI Settings Files, Anger Files, Politics Files and Accept Treaties; WILL always be in play. It is probable at some point, that/those AI may not like; living happily ever-after forever, and break the (Existing Treaty with the other Original Player)

===

B: If there is an Enemy Near but not in the Claimed Territory, then your AI may go into Infrastructure State

If (B) is the only variable to consider, and other Player had no agreement, then from the Infrastructure State.

If the Enemy Players System are Nearby, the AI may Consider the Prepare Attack State then to consider the actual * Attack State.
(This is why continuing a new game, when you start next to Psychos, like the XiChung; is not usually a winnable choice, in any se4 Game)
-
The AI may just consider the Incursion State early with a quick Muster, if that AI considers the enemies systems, is not well defended.
---
(C):The AI (may) Consider a Prepare for Defense State.
If the (adjacent system vs. Home/System) Ship strength numbers are not even near favorable
====
((D)): If your AI, IS IN any State mentioned above, and ANY ENEMY Player has entered your territory, then your AI WILL Change to Defend Short Term State for a few turns :

Your AI will now; analyze its current Situation, IF-THEN :

IF enemy is still in its territory after a few turns go by, it will remain in the Defend Short Term State * that may continue to * Prepare for Defense State, and in the end; to Defend (Long Term) State. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
-----
Until:
(E) Enemy is NOT IN that AI�s territory and there are NO Systems to Explore; then your AI may revert to the ~(B) Infrastructure State

FROM (E)to(B)THEN and IF , Enough time since the Last Attack has passed from your AI Settings File (XiChung @ Turns to Wait until next attack := 6) then your AI WILL consider from (B) Infrastructure State again, for an Attack or an Incursion

(F) However, from Defend Short Term, if no enemy is in that AI territory, or nearby and there are Systems to Explore still; then your AI may revert all the way back to the Exploration State and start the above process, from the Scenario you presented; all over again.

========================================

* ~Tip~ * (IMO) To maintain the continuity and the transition to the next AI State; designers may want to stay with the default format intact for both:

AI State := Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term), Defend (Long Term)

(AND)

AI State := Prepare for Attack, Attack

---
Also (IMO FWIW):
Absolutely, a deviation from the from the above Format, may yield some FUNKY results, but this may also, lead to a distortion of the intended MODs, logical and total Combat (or Design TYPE) Ship totals.
It may also lead, to the dreaded Defend (Long Term) or just to stay stuck in Defend (Short Term); and/or resulting in no logic.
===========================================

Definitions and Actions:

AI Defend Short Term Strategic State:
This would be the first stage for the AI Player, to boot the other Enemy player out of his territory and for that AI to analyze its current Status for that current Situation
(Continues for about 5 turns. Then this AI will make a decisive decision; for the next State Change) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
As outlined in ((D)),(E), and (F).
-

AI Prepare to Attack State:
AI considers a nearby enemy system is weak and could be conquered. Your AI will now prepare a Fleet/Fleets and get ready to attack that system.

AI Attack State:
Your AI will now consider this to be a valid and doable Attack, if so, then the AI will attack that Enemy System and attempt to conquer it.

In both the above, Prepare for Attack, Attack States, your AI has some save guards, so your AI may revert to various other states, however, the State you DO want to see, as the next change, is the:

Secure Holdings State
Your AI�s attack has been completed and it was VICTORIOUS. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Your AI will send in ships to secure the system (a few pre-built defense ships will do well here, if any planets were captured +Happy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif , and your AI will now want to colonize any empty planets� http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
This is were your next best Colony Expansion Policy, should reap, the next best and safest rewards http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

When in the Secure Holdings State and that newly conquered System is now totally secured; your AI will revert back to ~(B) Infrastructure State...
And your AI, may start the process all over again, begining from ~(B) Infrastructure State http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Also note: If any Enemy enters any Territory, also from the Secure Holdings State.
Your AI will revert, briefly; to the ((D)) AI Defend Short Term Strategic State:
To re-evaluate
=
===
=
Any questions, please don�t hesitate to ask.

Continure next post

[ June 24, 2003, 23:19: Message edited by: JLS ]

cybersol

June 25th, 2003, 12:19 AM

Originally posted by JLS:
And now, that you just invested, in actuality a Prepare for attack (when a Incursion was the call). Can you say that your AI can afford another tumble thru Prepare for Attack, again, and again? Please consider, will you have exotic ships like the Planet or System Destroyer, etc� In the Prepare for Attack.
If not, then were would you request them?So let us say my AI has plenty of resource reserves and is half way through building everything in the "Prepare for Attack" queue. Then it switches to another state, say "Defend (Short Term)" to repel a small enemy fleet from its territory. Lets say theoretically that it manages to do this without taking any loses, without building any ships, and without colonizing any planets. When it switches back to "Prepare for Attack", the first ship added to construction queues will be from what location in the "Prepare for Attack" queue? Will it be the first entry at the top, the Last entry at the bottom, or would it be the exact entry it would have produced next if it had never been interrupted by the "Defend (Short Term)" state?

JLS

June 25th, 2003, 02:24 AM

Originally posted by cybersol:

So let us say my AI has plenty of resource reserves and is half way through building everything in the "Prepare for Attack" queue.
Then it switches to another state, say "Defend (Short Term)" to repel a small enemy fleet from its territory.
Lets say theoretically that it manages to do this without taking any loses, without building any ships, and without colonizing any planets.
Cybersol,

From the Variables you described above:

Your build queues will continue the construction process to complete, all Items, which are already under construction from your previous, Prepare for Attack State. (IIRC) Any Items, other then top in processed Item, will be cleared from the queues.

-

Please remember, your AI now had a change State; to Defend Short Term, basically for (5 Turns)
Now, with this new State Change, the AI will fill all available build queues, Starting at the top of the AI State: = Defend Short Term List (Irregardless of the format: i.e. Combined with any other AI State or not. Subject to AI State rules.

It is recommended, that units be placed at the top of this Defend Short Term, because the AI Switches in an out of this State frequently. This way, thru out the game your Home World will be assured of a fresh supply.
Any available BSYs or Yard Facilities will continue on with the Defend (Short Term) list, of course the BSY will only receive, Ship or Base requests.

This reminds me. Cybersol, about how many BSYs do you expect at about turn 55?

Defend Short Term:
Entry 1 Type: Weapon Platform (Highly suggested, to insure steady and continues builds of fresh designs for your se4 AI�s Home World.
2: Satellites and or Fighters
Attack Ships
Defense Ships (Optional)
Etc

Please note: From the Defend (Short Term) With no enemy in your Territory, the AI will only change to Infrastructure State or the Exploration as out lined below.

(E) Enemy is NOT IN that AI�s territory and there are NO Systems to Explore; then your AI may revert to the ~(B) Infrastructure State

FROM (E)to(B)THEN and IF , Enough time since the Last Attack has passed from your AI Settings File (XiChung @ Turns to Wait until next attack := 6) then your AI WILL consider from (B) Infrastructure State again, for an Attack or an Incursion

Or

(F) However, from Defend Short Term, if no enemy is in that AI territory, or nearby and there are Systems to Explore still; then your AI may revert all the way back to the Exploration State.

When it switches back to "Prepare for Attack", the first ship added to construction queues will be from what location in the "Prepare for Attack" queue? Will it be the first entry at the top, the Last entry at the bottom, or would it be the exact entry it would have produced next if it had never been interrupted by the "Defend (Short Term)" state?
Your build queues will continue the construction process to complete, all Items, which are already under construction from your previous, Defend (Short Term). (IIRC) Any Items, other then top in processed Item, will be cleared from the queues.
=
When the AI; picks a selection based on the AI State, the first item in the queue is selected, and evaluated , the AI will fill all available build queues.

=

Reference:

AI CONSTRUCTION VEHICLES DATA FILE
Rules:
1. The game picks a selection based on the AI State. There cannot be duplicate
AI states.
2. Item will be placed at whichever spaceyard is available and can get it done the fastest.
3. First item in the queue is selected, and evaluated. We construct if:
Please refer to file for formula. If I post data, a HTML error here will, exist http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
4. If the Build at Least value is greater than 0, we check if the Planet Per Item condition
is still true. If it is, then we purchase another one, if not, we move to the next
queue item. If we do purchase another one, we continue in this loop until the
condition is false, or we have purchased the number in Build At Least.
5. When the Last item is reached, it restarts at the beginning.

[ June 25, 2003, 02:07: Message edited by: JLS ]

cybersol

June 25th, 2003, 06:09 AM

Originally posted by JLS:
Your build queues will continue the construction process to complete, all Items, which are already under construction from your previous, Defend (Short Term). (IIRC) Any Items, other then top in processed Item, will be cleared from the queues.
=
When the AI; picks a selection based on the AI State, the first item in the queue is selected, and evaluated , the AI will fill all available build queues.When it switches back to "Prepare for Attack" after my hypothetical situation, it will indeed process the first entry. But it has already completed this entry since neither PPI nor MHAL has changed since it was Last in this queue (because no ships were made or destroyed and no planet were made). Thus the first "ship" it will add to a construction queue is exactly the one it would have added if it had never switched to the "Defend (Short Term)" state.

Originally posted by JLS:
And now, that you just invested, in actuality a Prepare for attack (when a Incursion was the call). Can you say that your AI can afford another tumble thru Prepare for Attack, again, and again? Please consider, will you have exotic ships like the Planet or System Destroyer, etc� In the Prepare for Attack.
If not, then were would you request them?Given the example above about how the queues work, I don't really see why it would be expensive to make multiple passes through a "Prepare for Attack" like queue. Either you have a ship already and it can skip the entry or you still need it so you build it. If you call for one star destroyer (PPI=0,MHAL=1), then as long as it is either being built or already built and still surviving then you will never build another.

Originally posted by JLS:
This reminds me. Cybersol, about how many BSYs do you expect at about turn 55?Being in the proportions type frame of mind, you are not going to like the answer. Right now, it would have zero. I may eventually add one or two to better handle single planet starts. By turn 55, it would have a large number of planetary yards though.

Originally posted by JLS:
It is recommended, that units be placed at the top of this Defend Short Term, because the AI Switches in an out of this State frequently. This way, thru out the game your Home World will be assured of a fresh supply.
Any available BSYs or Yard Facilities will continue on with the Defend (Short Term) list, of course the BSY will only receive, Ship or Base requests.I disagree slightly here. In the unmodded game there is very little cargo room on planets. The small cargo room makes it more important to plan which units are built on each planet type. The construction_units file allow this type of specific assignment. Using the construction_units file also free's up planetary space yards to work on ships instead of units. With a few exceptions based on needed cargo for carriers or layers, I think most units should be built through the construction_units file in the unmodded game.

JLS

June 25th, 2003, 05:47 PM

Originally posted by Cybersol:
When it switches back to "Prepare for Attack" after my hypothetical situation, it will indeed process the first entry.
Indeed: Yes, exactly as I posted.

When the AI; picks a selection based on the AI State (in your hypothetical situation, to: Prepare for Attack; (as in any AI state change), the first item in the queue is selected, and evaluated , the AI will fill all available build queues.

However, what you are not excepting, Cybersol, too be true; is that your AI will NEVER return to the Prepare for Attack State, from the Defend (Short Term) State.

In addition, your build queues will continue the construction process to complete, all Items, which are already under construction; from your previous, STATE.
~
Originally posted by Cybersol:
But it has already completed this entry since neither PPI nor MHAL has changed since it was Last in this queue (because no ships were made or destroyed and no planet were made). Thus the first "ship" it will add to a construction queue is exactly the one it would have added if it had never switched to the "Defend (Short Term)" state.
Cybersol, again, your AI WILL NOT, return to the Prepare for Attack State, from the Defend (Short Term)" state, as I explained in all my Posts you, you have read, and commented on.

Respect to your hypothetical situation:
IF the AI will NOT return to Prepare for Attack State from the Defend (Short Term)" state, how can your AI start off, were it left off?

With your intended Formats, you posted below.
=
==
=
Regards to any other theoretical, AI State Change:
Also, please, refer to se4 Rules; regarding, were the AI will start the construction queue.
How is it interpreted, by you Cybersol, that:
� Thus the first "ship" it will add to a construction queue is exactly the one it would have added if it had never switched '' state. �

Please, point out your referance.
=================================================
Rules: AI CONSTRUCTION VEHICLES DATA FILE

1. The game picks a selection based on the AI State. There cannot be duplicate
AI states.
2. Item will be placed at whichever spaceyard is available and can get it done the fastest.
3. First item(Note:not "ship") in the queue is selected, and evaluated.
<blockquote>code:<hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">We construct if:
a. There are less than X planets
per each item, (if there are 13 planets
and we already have 4 ships
of this design type,
and the Planet Per Item value = 3,
then we buy another one).
If PPI < (Num Planets /
Num Ships of Type), construct.</pre><hr /></blockquote>~
4. If the Build at Least value is greater than 0, we check if the Planet Per Item condition
is still true.
If it is, then we purchase another one, if not, we move to the next
queue item. If we do purchase another one, we continue in this loop until the
condition is false, or we have purchased the number in Build At Least.
5. When the Last item is reached, it restarts at the beginning.

Cybersol groupings:
Exploration
Not Connected
Infrastructure
Secure Holdings After Attack
Prepare for Attack, Attack, Incursion
Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term), Defend (Long Term)
=================================================
Originally posted by Cybersol:
Given the example above about how the queues work, I don't really see why it would be expensive to make multiple passes through a "Prepare for Attack" like queue. Either you have a ship already and it can skip the entry or you still need it so you build it. If you call for one star destroyer (PPI=0,MHAL=1), then as long as it is either being built or already built and still surviving then you will never build another.
I am sorry, Cybersol. Your example above, as you can see was, flawed.
Since the AI will NEVER change to Prepare for Attack FROM the Defend (Short Term) as a logic, or even by your groupings, posted.
======

Originally posted by JLS:
And now, that you just invested, in actuality a Prepare for attack (when a Incursion was the call). Can you say that your AI can afford another tumble thru Prepare for Attack, again, and again? Please consider, will you have exotic ships like the Planet or System Destroyer, etc� In the Prepare for Attack.
If not, then were would you request them?
Cybersol.
Some how you have confused the Post I made; (IMO) Why, you should Not have Incursion State combined with the Prepare for Attack, Attack State.
With your Hypothetical Scenario about The AI Switching to, Prepare to Attack from Secure Defend (Short Term)" state.
---
As you recall, this is to say if you have a PPI on any of your ITEMS types, you gave in your format group of: Prepare for Attack, Attack, Incursion

And now knowing that the AI does enter the Incursion frequently, then, yes, your ships count will increase rapidly, PER the PPI every time you enter the Incursion state as I pointed out in THAT post, this will include every Item you have in your Prepare for Attack, Attack, Incursion

In regards to Exotic ships, I was just asking your intent, and where you thought a reasonable group would be for your AI to call it.

However, since you have now said, yes, you are going to have ONE star Destroyer, and it will be in you�re: Prepare for Attack, Attack, Incursion State.

Originally posted by Cybersol:
The incursion state I thought was like a minor harrasment of the enemy.
------------------------
Follow up reply by JLS:
True, at any and or ALL Enemies Systems/Territories of opportunity; with only a few parameters and safeguards.
I am surprised you will have on hand, such an exotic and expensive Star Destroyer, �just for a minor harrasment on the enemy� from this, AI Incursion mission. Not to mention the Items that will continue to be built in that Incursion Mission in the way you have its group setup.

I have question, if, you run out of maintenance and will build no new ships. Yet your research continues, your designs are improving and you cannot retrofit, do to lack of resources and now you have a windfall of Resources. Can your AI, then retrofit considering the 50% rule.

What you suggest is an offensive, doctrine, however:
What of resources when your AI actually, will need to plan a: Prepare for Attack then Attack:
One, Nearby well defended system (Perhaps another Players, HS)

Just as important:
Now what if the AI, will need to plan for a; Prepare for Defense at some point in the game, will this be possible, if it has no resources.
(Perhaps Your AI Players, HS)

Most important:
Now what if the AI, will be in need to Defend (Long Term) at some point in the game, will this be possible, if it has no resources.
===

I disagree slightly here. In the unmodded game there is very little cargo room on planets. The small cargo room makes it more important to plan which units are built on each planet type.
Interesting, is not the default Space Empires 4 AI Construction Vehicles file, the unmodded game.

reference:
Excerpt from se4 unmodded, default file:

AI State := Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term), Defend (Long Term)
Num Queue Entries := 21
Entry 1 Type := Weapon Platform
Entry 1 Planet Per Item := 0
Entry 1 Must Have At Least := 2
Entry 2 Type := Satellite
Entry 2 Planet Per Item := 0
Entry 2 Must Have At Least := 2
Entry 3 Type := Attack Ship
Entry 3 Planet Per Item := 30
Entry 3 Must Have At Least := 2
Entry 4 Type := Mine
Entry 4 Planet Per Item := 0
Entry 4 Must Have At Least := 2
Entry 5 Type := Fighter
Entry 5 Planet Per Item := 0
Entry 5 Must Have At Least := 2
Entry 6 Type := Mine Sweeper
Entry 6 Planet Per Item := 200
Entry 6 Must Have At Least := 1
Entry 7 Type := Colonizer
Entry 7 Planet Per Item := 100
Entry 7 Must Have At Least := 1
Entry 8 Type := Weapon Platform
Entry 8 Planet Per Item := 5
Entry 8 Must Have At Least := 10
Entry 9 Type := Satellite
Entry 9 Planet Per Item := 5
Entry 9 Must Have At Least := 10
Entry 10 Type := Mine
Entry 10 Planet Per Item := 5
Entry 10 Must Have At Least := 2
Entry 11 Type := Fighter
Entry 11 Planet Per Item := 2
Entry 11 Must Have At Least := 20
Entry 12 Type := Troop
Entry 12 Planet Per Item := 10
Entry 12 Must Have At Least := 2

====

The construction_units file allow this type of specific assignment. Using the construction_units file also free's up planetary space yards to work on ships instead of units. �Using the construction_units file also free's up planetary space yards to work on ships instead of units.�
Are you stating here, that the Home World or Colonies with a planetary space yard, will not build units, just ships.
Just kidding http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Actually, the Construction Units File, does for all the colonies. That the Construction Vehicles files, could never have achieved. As it relates to Units.
Wouldn�t you agree http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ June 25, 2003, 21:03: Message edited by: JLS ]

cybersol

June 25th, 2003, 10:08 PM

Originally posted by JLS:
However, what you are not excepting, Cybersol, too be true; is that your AI will NEVER return to the Prepare for Attack State, from the Defend (Short Term) State.I re-read your previous post, which has been edited since I read it Last. You are saying it will most likely transition through an Infrastructure state before it can get back to the prepare for attack state?

Originally posted by JLS:
Respect to your hypothetical situation:
So if the AI will NOT return to Prepare for Attack State from the Defend (Short Term)" state, how can your AI start off, were it left off?Assume all intervening queues were dummy queues with a call for one attack ship. Since the prepare for attack already build a lot of these attack ships, no new ones will be built.

The point of the example, flawed as it was, is that the AI will never rebuild anything it already has, so you do not have to worry about multiple passes close in time through the same queue of items.

Originally posted by JLS:
Regards to any other theoretical, AI State Change: Also, please, refer to se4 Rules; regarding, were the AI will start the construction queue.
How is it interpreted, by you Cybersol, that:
� Thus the first "ship" it will add to a construction queue is exactly the one it would have added if it had never switched '' state. � Originally in the queue lets say it was just about to add the first ship from entry 15 to a build queue, but it never did add that ship because it just added the Last one from entry 14 when it left the Prepare for Attack state. In the example no ships were built or destroyed while in the other AI states, and no planets were colonized. When it looks at entry 1 when it returns to the "Prepare for Attack" state, it will see that PPI and MHAL are already satisfied because those ships or whatever the entry calls for have already in existence. Thus it will move on to entry 2 without adding anything to a build queue, and so on until entry 14. The Last time at entry 14, we had just added the Last ship that satisfied the PPI and MHAL criteria, so this time it will move on past entry 14 (it may still be building a few of these ships from Last time if they took a long time to build, but that counts as existence to the AI). Thus, the first ship it will ADD to a construction queue is the first one in entry 15. Right where it left off.

Originally posted by JLS:
As you recall, this is to say if you have a PPI on any of your ITEMS types, you gave in your format group of: Prepare for Attack, Attack, Incursion

And now knowing that the AI does enter the Incursion frequently, then, yes, your ships will multiply, PER the PPI every time you enter the Incursion state as I pointed out in THAT post, this will include every Item you have in your Prepare for Attack, Attack, IncursionAgain, I think multiply not the ideal description of how the queues work. Every time it enters the Incursion state it will start at the top and try to build forces, but the nth time through it will have most of the forces from the nth-1 time, so it will only build the ones it needs. How does that result in ship multiplication?

cybersol

June 25th, 2003, 10:57 PM

Originally posted by JLS:
I have question, if, you run out of maintenance and will build no new ships. Yet your research continues, your designs are improving and you cannot retrofit, do to lack of resources and now you have a windfall of Resources. Can your AI, then retrofit considering the 50% rule.

What you suggest is an offensive, doctrine, however:
What of resources when your AI actually, will need to plan a: Prepare for Attack then Attack:
One, Nearby well defended system (Perhaps another Players, HS)

Just as important:
Now what if the AI, will need to plan for a; Prepare for Defense at some point in the game, will this be possible, if it has no resources.
(Perhaps Your AI Players, HS)

Most important:
Now what if the AI, will be in need to Defend (Long Term) at some point in the game, will this be possible, if it has no resources.What I suggest is a difference in doctorine, to be sure. But it is not inherently an offensive or defensive doctorine. The doctorine is to utilize the AI resources of materials and building queues to their maximal extent as early as possible. This is how I, as a human player, would play the game, so why shouldn't the AI?

Now there are some minor drawbacks due to what the AI is capable of, but IMO there are major drawbacks to leaving the resources sitting idle.

On the obsolescence front, the AI will have ships that are older technology (so would I). In general this is a good thing because it means the AI is rapidly progressing in its research. It does leave the need to retrofit, which the AI will sometimes attempt to do. If you maximum maintenance percentage of revenue is set correctly, you will still have the resource reserves to retrofit. The 50% rule is always a minor problem, particularly for the mid-game LC to BC hulls. But, it will remain a problem even if I build fewer ships.

On the when your AI needs resources for attack or defense front, I beleive a large standing set of fleets is the best way to have a successful attack or defense. If I have the maximum number of ships fielded and replace them as fast as possible, then I have done the most I can to ensure a successful attack or a successful defense. There is then no need to build ships because they are already built.

Now, your way, you are invaded and you start to enter the defense state, and only then do you begin a buildup of the forces you need to defend. What if you can not build fast enough?

My way, the standing fleet engages the enemy. As loses are incurred, newer 'modern' replacements are built. The faster the loses are incurred the faster the resources are freed for new construction. In the worst case scenario my standing fleet is demolished and I begin a buildup of new forces to defend.

In the worst case scenario, my strategy defaults to your fresh buildup as the resources are freed nearly instantaneously. If I can't build fast enough now, I am doomed, but you would have been as well. And you never had the extra chance of winning that the standing navy provided.

JLS

June 25th, 2003, 11:19 PM

Originally posted by cybersol:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JLS:
And now, that you just invested, in actuality a Prepare for attack (when a Incursion was the call). Can you say that your AI can afford another tumble thru Prepare for Attack, again, and again? Please consider, will you have exotic ships like the Planet or System Destroyer, etc� In the Prepare for Attack.
If not, then were would you request them?So let us say my AI has plenty of resource reserves and is half way through building everything in the "Prepare for Attack" queue. Then it switches to another state, say "Defend (Short Term)" to repel a small enemy fleet from its territory. Lets say theoretically that it manages to do this without taking any loses, without building any ships, and without colonizing any planets. When it switches back to "Prepare for Attack", the first ship added to construction queues will be from what location in the "Prepare for Attack" queue? Will it be the first entry at the top, the Last entry at the bottom, or would it be the exact entry it would have produced next if it had never been interrupted by the "Defend (Short Term)" state?<hr /></blockquote>What are you talking about: Assume all intervening queues were dummy queues ???
Why would I do that.

Where was this stated that there are; intervening queues were dummy queues in your POSTED; hypothetical situation, Or all the first 15 PPI settings are unobtainable) above?

Regards to:
�And now knowing that the AI does enter the Incursion frequently, then, yes, your ships count will increase rapidly, PER the PPI every time you enter the Incursion state as I pointed out in THAT post, this will include every Item you have in your Prepare for Attack, Attack, Incursion
�
Please refer to:
Cybersol,
Now knowing that the AI does enter the Incursion frequently, then, yes, your ships count will increase rapidly, PER the PPI every time you enter the Incursion state as I pointed out in THAT post, this will include every Item you have in your Prepare for Attack, Attack, Incursion.

Cybersol, all you need to do now, is Study and Learn the:
AI CONSTRUCTION VEHICLES DATA FILE, Rules.
Focus on line 3, first sentence.
3. First item in the queue is selected
Unless of coarse your first 15, lines are, what, dummies. (Or all your first 15 (PPI) settings are what, unobtainable) In your: AI STATE: Prepare for Attack, Attack, Incursion http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Please, consider what I posted in regards to the AI state Changes, and all that it implies.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ June 25, 2003, 22:37: Message edited by: JLS ]

cybersol

June 25th, 2003, 11:54 PM

Originally posted by JLS:
What are you talking about: Assume all intervening queues were dummy queues ???
Why would I do that.
*snip*
Where was this stated that there are; intervening queues were dummy queues in your POSTED; hypothetical situationIt was not originally stated they were dummy queues but it was stated that nothing was added to the build queues, this is a pratical way of acheiving the stated assumption.

Originally posted by JLS:
Cybersol, all you need to do now, is Study and Learn the:
AI CONSTRUCTION VEHICLES DATA FILE, Rules.
Focus on line 3, first sentence.
3. First item in the queue is selected
Unless of coarse your first 15, lines are, what, dummies. (Or all your first 15 (PPI) settings are what, unobtainable) In your: AI STATE: Prepare for Attack, Attack, IncursionI decided to make the example more concrete by saying the 15th entry was the half way point as mentioned in the original hypothetical situation. The first fourteen entries are not dummies, they are normal construction_vehicles entries. But if I asked for 1 attack ship per 4 planets and at least 5 total the first time through the queue, and if no ships were lost and no planets colonized, then I still have 1 attack ship per 4 planets and at least 5 total the second time through the queue when I return to the Prepare for attack state. So nothing is added to the construction queue becuase I have already satisfied the construction rules. Thus the first 14 real construction_vehicle entries in the prepare for attack state do nothing the second time through the queue because the ships are already built. The first ship added to a construction queue the second time is thus the first one in the 15th entry, because of the first 15 entries only its PPI and MHAL have not been adressed yet.

In my experience, you do not get a second helping of ships from the first 14 queue entries. I have observed no ship multiplication from multiple passes through the queue.

[ June 28, 2003, 04:19: Message edited by: cybersol ]

cybersol

June 27th, 2003, 05:23 AM

I'm still working hard on making this no special racial trait AI. I watched a previous Version soundly trounce the Sallega, who were in the top 18 in AI death match 2. The Sallega expand increadibly well, but thier ship designs could probably be better.

Since then, I have been re-working the research and design files. I've changed so much now, that if I had saved the old revision I might have two different AI's.

After I wrap up the research and design files (hopefully for the Last time), I'll go back and re-work the construction files.

[ June 28, 2003, 04:26: Message edited by: cybersol ]

cybersol

July 18th, 2003, 08:45 PM

I am just starting work on this AI again after a two week vacation. The AI is currently trading blows with the Fazrah and continuing to undergo final ship design tweaks.

Spectarofdeath

June 23rd, 2004, 06:20 PM

How exactly do you get the AI to put missiles on their ships?

JLS

June 23rd, 2004, 07:49 PM

Enter the Weapon Family number from the Component File: in either the Majority Weapon Family Pick or the Secondary Weapon Family Pick that is located in (THAT) AI Folders Design file.
Then adjust the Comp Spaces Per to load your desired amount - This may take a little trial and error, but you will get the load you want http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

= = = = = = = = = = =
Reference se4 Terran Race

from se4 component data file
Name := Capital Ship Missile I
Description := Heavy duty missile with nuclear warhead.
Pic Num := 67
Tonnage Space Taken := 50
Tonnage Structure := 50
Cost Minerals := 400
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 80
Vehicle Type := Ship\Base\Sat\WeapPlat\Drone
Supply Amount Used := 10
Restrictions := None
General Group := Weapons
Family := 2001
Roman Numeral := 1
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Missile Weapons
Tech Level Req 1 := 1
Number of Abilities := 0
Weapon Type := Seeking
Weapon Target := Ships\Planets
Weapon Damage At Rng := 60 60 60 60 60 60 60 60 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Weapon Damage Type := Normal
Weapon Reload Rate := 3
Weapon Display Type := Seeker
Weapon Display := 1
Weapon Modifier := 0
Weapon Sound := capshpms.wav
Weapon Family := 2 ( all weapons have a number, place this # in that AI's design file)
Weapon Seeker Speed := 5
Weapon Seeker Dmg Res := 30

- - -

to that AI's Design file loacated in its folder
Name := Attack Ship
Design Type := Attack Ship
Vehicle Type := Ship
Default Strategy := Optimal Firing Range
Size Minimum Tonnage := 20
Size Maximum Tonnage := 5000
Num Must Have At Least 1 Ability := 1
Must Have Ability 1 := Weapon
Minimum Speed := 4
Desired Speed := 6
Majority Weapon Family Pick 1 := 2 (if this was a 1 and not the 2 etc. then it would load Missiles)
Majority Weapon Family Pick 2 := 25
Majority Weapon Family Pick 3 := 0
Majority Weapon Family Pick 4 := 0
Majority Weapon Family Pick 5 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 1 := 1 (this will load Capital Ship Missiles)
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 2 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 3 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 4 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 5 := 0
Shields Spaces Per One := 200
Armor Spaces Per One := 1200
Majority Comp Spaces Per One := 1200 (less will load more)
Majority Comp Ability := Weapon
Secondary Comp Spaces Per One := 500 (less will load more)
Secondary Comp Ability := Weapon
Num Misc Abilities := 11
Misc Ability 1 Name := Point-Defense
Misc Ability 1 Spaces Per One := 400
Misc Ability 2 Name := Cloak Level
Misc Ability 2 Spaces Per One := 10000
Misc Ability 3 Name := Quantum Reactor
Misc Ability 3 Spaces Per One := 10000
Misc Ability 4 Name := Combat To Hit Defense Plus
Misc Ability 4 Spaces Per One := 10000
Misc Ability 5 Name := Combat To Hit Offense Plus
Misc Ability 5 Spaces Per One := 10000
Misc Ability 6 Name := Multiplex Tracking
Misc Ability 6 Spaces Per One := 10000
Misc Ability 7 Name := Shield Regeneration
Misc Ability 7 Spaces Per One := 800
Misc Ability 8 Name := Emergency Resupply
Misc Ability 8 Spaces Per One := 800
Misc Ability 9 Name := Self-Destruct
Misc Ability 9 Spaces Per One := 10000
Misc Ability 10 Name := Scanner Jammer
Misc Ability 10 Spaces Per One := 10000
Misc Ability 11 Name := Supply Storage
Misc Ability 11 Spaces Per One := 500

[ June 23, 2004, 19:13: Message edited by: JLS ]