Proportions Question

[tbontob]

What is the upgrade list to get to a cultural center?

Is it Settlement==>Colonial Community==>Minor City==>Major City==>Metropolis==>Cultural Centre?

I read somewhere that the SpacePort City is not uprgadeable to a Cultural Centre. What is it's upgrade list?

[PvK]

You can't upgrade a population center into a Cultural Center. The Cultural Center has to be developed from scratch.

You can't even upgrade to an Arcology, because those too require advanced planning and construction from scratch.

The largest upgradeable population center facility is a Megalopolis, which IIRC can be upgraded from Minor City or larger.

PvK

[oleg]

It may seems like a major letdown that you have to build advanced cultural buildings from scratch, but that is the only way to reconcile PvK' vision of Future and SE reality. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I feel you pain though, man. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Every time I get past 300 turns. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[tbontob]

Yeh! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Only I am in the beginning of the game NGC Proportions (2405.4) and am still wondering how everything relates to each other.

But it does seem a little wierd that you cannot upgrade to a cultural centre. I suppose the SE4 game structure prevents it in some way.

[dogscoff]

But it does seem a little wierd that you cannot upgrade to a cultural centre. I suppose the SE4 game structure prevents it in some way.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yeah- because cultural centre tech is available from the start of the game (it has to be, because that's what your homeworld starts with), it would break the city upgrade system if it were on the upgrade tree.

The game only upgrades to the highest thing on the tree, so if you build a minor city and have city/major city tech availabel, you would ONLY be able to upgrade it to to a major city- you CANNOT upgrade to the intermediate size (city). That's why the colonial development techs are so cheap - they are only there to allow you some control over your upgrades (ie don't research major city until you have issued all your "upgrade to city" orders)

Likewise, if cutlural centres were at the top of that tree, you'd ONLY be able to upgrade to them, you'd never have the option to upgrade to to a city or major city or any other intermediate stage. Because CCs are so horrendously expensive, this would that whole upgrade path utterly unusable.

Of course the (seemingly) obvious solution is to make CCs affordable, but that's just not how proportions is supposed to be. There are a few long-winded and occasionally heated threads around here as to why they should be priced as they are.

[Ed Kolis]

What if there were duplicates of each facility which had its own upgrade path that stopped at whatever level you wanted? This would also solve the problem of multiple facilities upgrading to Cultural Center, as there would be duplicates of that as well.

(I can't remember the Proportions names so I'll use the SE2 names http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif )

Outpost A (non-upgradeable)
Outpost B -&gt; Colony B
Outpost C -&gt; Colony C -&gt; Settlement C
Outpost D -&gt; Colony D -&gt; Settlement D -&gt; Cultural Center D
Spaceport Outpost A (non-upgradeable)
Spaceport Outpost B -&gt; Spaceport Colony B
Spaceport Outpost C -&gt; SpaceportColony C -&gt; Spaceport Settlement C
Spaceport Outpost D -&gt; Spaceport Colony D -&gt; Spaceport Settlement D -&gt; Spaceport Cultural Center D

Of course, the upgradeability of any facility would be determined at build time, but at least it would work better than the standard system... And it would have the added advantage of keeping all the levels of facilities on the screen without turning off "latest only"! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[PvK]

That would work, Ed. It'd be a bit of a cut & paste party. Maybe add an "Urban Planning" tech area http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif with low cost, so that it's an optional complication in case not everyone wants to do it.

Note though that I would then double the cost of the Cultural Center which could be upgraded to, because upgrades are always half-price. Arcology would remain something that needs to be build from scratch, because of what it is.

PvK

[tbontob]

Hmmm.....

I am not sure if I get it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

The statement has been made that you cannot have upgradeable city facilities which culminate into a cultural centre because we must start with cultural centres.

If the above is true, then using another example, if the HW starts with Ship Yard 3, then we would not be able to upgrade to Ship Yard 3 from Ship Yard 1 or Ship Yard 2.

Even if the above is true, we could had a upgradeable city facility to a Kultural Centre (spelling intended) where the Kultural Centre is identical to a Culural Centre.

[Fyron]

Once you have SY 3 available, you can not upgrade from SY 1 to SY 2. You can onlu upgrade to SY 3. This is the problem. If Cultural Centers were upgradeable from cities and such, you could not do any upgrading at all, because the CC costs so much, and eliminates the earlier city type facilities on the upgrade path.

Even if the above is true, we could had a upgradeable city facility to a Kultural Centre (spelling intended) where the Kultural Centre is identical to a Culural Centre. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This only works if the Kultural Center is not available from the beginning. Proportions does have the Colony Cultural Centers (not sure if they are obseleted in the latest Version or not), which implies that PvK originally intended for some upgrade path to them, but took that out.

[ July 17, 2003, 01:49: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[PvK]

Right.

So, the suggestion would be to make numerous variations on the facilities in order to allow more types of upgrades, as long as you pre-planned them and could figure out the new upgrade system. Apparently some players think this would be worth the effort, because they really would like to be able to upgrade amongst the many different sizes of cities and so on with more freedom than is currently possible. In theory this could be done, though in practice it would be a fair amount of work, both to implement and to figure out and use in play.

The Colony Cultural Centers were to allow insane manic players to try to build one or more cultural centers on a homeworld or colony where there was already a space yard. This was back in an earlier Version of the mod when homeworld cultural centers had stacking spaceyard abilities, but the hard-coded limits thus prevented them from being built on a planet which already had a spaceyard. Therefore I added the colony cultural center. Later I decided to remove the SY ability of homeworld centers, so the Colony CC just became an atmospheric variation. I think it's still in the mod, but now requires research in colonial development in order to be able to embark on the massively long-term project of actually building one.

PvK

[dogscoff]

were to allow insane manic players to try to build one or more cultural centers
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">BTW, I think I should let you all know I'm going to do this. I'm planning my first Proportions Ringworld. I have the tech, I think I have the economy (two homeworlds conquered, two more on the way, extensive colonisation) and I have the will.

All this against the AI, of course...

Once I've colonised the ringworld, I plan to build a spaceyard there and then begin work on a Cultural Centre. (Are there any other facilities i should build first to decrease production time? I have no special techs so I can't build cloning centres or temporal SYs, and I can put my urban pac fac on another world in the same system.)

All the while I'll be ferrying a massive (ie depopulate 3 entire homeworlds) population onto it. I've already started redrawing the warp-points to make this process easier. I'm also wondering whether it would be more efficient to have a stack of starliner-worldships (which take ~20million pop but have a max speed of 2) or a fleet of smaller, faster pop transports that will only take a few million each, but can make several journies in the same time.

Anyway, Once I get the population to 10-20 billion I'm hoping a CC will be achievble in my lifetime.

Wish me luck...

[ July 17, 2003, 11:09: Message edited by: dogscoff ]

[dogscoff]

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Thanks Deccan.

I've just had a thought- is there anything (I mean, you know, apart from the mind-bogglingly crippling costs involved) to prevent me from using worldships to carry the ringworld components? That way I could use my homeworld spaceyards to get them built quicker. (although I'd have to pay maintenance on them while they crawled to their destination)

[PvK]

Originally posted by dogscoff:
...
I've just had a thought- is there anything (I mean, you know, apart from the mind-bogglingly crippling costs involved) to prevent me from using worldships to carry the ringworld components? That way I could use my homeworld spaceyards to get them built quicker. (although I'd have to pay maintenance on them while they crawled to their destination)<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not that I can think of. Makes good sense, if you can afford it. You probably have lots of remote mining going on?

How many homeworlds did you start with?

What starting tech level and research cost setting did you set for the game, and what turn is it?

PvK

[oleg]

Filling Ring World with Cultural Centers gives a true meaning to Real Time Strategy Games http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[PvK]

Ya. Hehe. However he said he was just gonna try to build one, not to fill it up with CC's.

PvK

[deccan]

Oh, I thought he was going to fill it up with CCs too. Drat. C'mon, Dogscoff, just 1 CC is no fun. Go for the gold man. Why not make it a sphereworld for good measure?

[deccan]

Originally posted by dogscoff:
BTW, I think I should let you all know I'm going to do this. I'm planning my first Proportions Ringworld. I have the tech, I think I have the economy (two homeworlds conquered, two more on the way, extensive colonisation) and I have the will.
[/QB]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Good luck. Post the savegame file when you're done, but I don't expect that people will still remember SEIV when you're done.

[dogscoff]

Not that I can think of. Makes good sense, if you can afford it. You probably have lots of remote mining going on?
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">None.


How many homeworlds did you start with?
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">One


What starting tech level and research cost setting did you set for the game, and what turn is it?
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Low-tech, not sure about tech cost- probably medium. As for turn number... I'd have to go home and check. Probably 300 or so.


Oh, I thought he was going to fill it up with CCs too. Drat. C'mon, Dogscoff, just 1 CC is no fun. Go for the gold man. Why not make it a sphereworld for good measure?
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You're 'avin a laugh. As it is I'm probably looking at another 300 - 500 turns of not much.

[PvK]

How many cultural centers do you control?

[tbontob]

Hmmmm....

My original question was answered in that there is no upgrade route to a cultural centre. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

But I am still lost in the upgrade route to other facilities.

Like is the upgrade route to a Metropolis through Minor City==>Major City==>Metropolis?

What does a Settlement ugrade to?

[dogscoff]

Tbon- it goes
minor city>city>major city>metropolis>megalopolis (I think)

The settlement chain has only two items in it, I can't remember their names right now.

PvK: I have three homeworlds now (all medium planets, I think) and I should have the Norak one as well inside of 20 turns. Then it's a short hop over to the Xi-chung home-system to take theirs.

My invasions are carried out by a "supermadbastard" class worldship, which can deliver 12000 points of damage at range 12 every other combat turn. Strip the shields, waste the wep platforms, then creep in to drop the troops.

I've not got a huge resource surplus at the moment, but I could get myself probably a hundred thousand extra per turn simply by mothballing my stellar manip fleet & worldship.

[PvK]

Settlement upgrades to Community, which doesn't upgrade. The Settlement and Community were added because people wanted a cultural facility which was smaller than a small city, for fun's sake. They can't upgrade to larger cultural facilities, because the program hard-codes upgrade costs so that it would make larger facs like Megalopolis too cheap.

PvK

[tbontob]

Thanks guys.

Now I can make a more informative decision. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

What do you have to research to get a minor city?

[ July 22, 2003, 19:25: Message edited by: tbontob ]

[PvK]

Just Colonial Development level 1 - 500 research points.

PvK

[tbontob]

Hmmmm

I have Colonial Developement Level 5 and I still don't have it.

Ooops, found it. Had "Only Latest" selected.

[ July 24, 2003, 20:32: Message edited by: tbontob ]

[PvK]

Ya you also need GUI at level 1+ <jk>

PvK

[dogscoff]

OK, I've built my ringworld, and I'm currently constructing a spaceyard there to accelerate the CC construction. Build time for the CC is shown at around 3000 turns right now.

Building the ringworld was surprisingly easy- I'm thinking I might do a few more.

[deccan]

Originally posted by dogscoff:
OK, I've built my ringworld, and I'm currently constructing a spaceyard there to accelerate the CC construction. Build time for the CC is shown at around 3000 turns right now.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">*Pats dogscoff on the back.*

The build rate should speed up significantly once you get decent levels of pop on it.

Hmm, feel the urge to start a SP proportions game just to build a sphereworld and fill it with CCs... must resist... feel life slipping away...

[PvK]

Seems pretty quick - those and atmosphere conVersion and replicants would probably be good to slow down in Proportions, for added joy of proper slowness. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Of course, what you get is an empty ringworld - the first cultural center is still going to take decades. It'd probably be more efficient in terms of production to nearly fill it with small facilities first.

PvK

[oleg]

Replicants are more or less OK. But atmospheric converters may need some changrs. Nature shrine and Resource improvemt building - sorry, forget the correct name - need some balancing as well. Proportions games are longer so the effect on resource extruction must be slower too.

[Fyron]

You can not change when Value Improvement is done. All you can do is change the percents. Perhaps make them all 1%, but have decreasing costs with increasing tech level? Or you could split all of the abilities into different facilities (or both).

[oleg]

JLS tried to address this point in AIC mod. He assigned Value improvements to Nature shrine 2 and above. NS 1 improves conditiones only. I think it is a very reasonable solution.

BTW, where is JLS ? He posted once he is back from holidays and disaapered again - no replies to private Messages http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

[PvK]

Yeah, those are good suggestions, Fryon.

Replicants seem fairly severe to me for human players to have, particularly when applied to systems with many colonies at level 3, and using alien breather types. They give the organic player a means to overcome three major gameplay issues at once:

* the need to use more than a few starliners
* the low build rates of most colonies due to low population
* the difficulty of amassing other-breathing colonists

Offhand, I don't think there's a way to limit the replicant centers to single-planet effects (is there?). So I'm thinking it might be more balanced if the effect was limited to 1M/turn/planet, and/or the research and construction difficulty increased a lot. It'd still be very powerful in the above ways, just about 1/4 as severe as present.

PvK

[oleg]

Originally posted by PvK:
Offhand, I don't think there's a way to limit the replicant centers to single-planet effects (is there?). So I'm thinking it might be more balanced if the effect was limited to 1M/turn/planet, and/or the research and construction difficulty increased a lot. It'd still be very powerful in the above ways, just about 1/4 as severe as present.

PvK<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, there is ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Take a look on original AIC data files - not the latest release. JLS made Replicant center give 30% increase in population reproduction. Roughly, it is close to the "normal" replicant center benefit, but only when it affects Homeworld and developed colonies ! Basically it becomes a VERY powerfull facility but restricted to your main population.

[ July 28, 2003, 22:49: Message edited by: oleg ]

[PvK]

Ah yes - nice technique. Hmmm Hmmm Hmmm... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I don't know what happened to JLS - he sent me an email about the time he vanished which I replied to with questions, but didn't hear back.

PvK

[dogscoff]

Yeah, I've only got 90 million on there at the moment, but my migration program is speeding up considerably. I have two pop-transport worldships (19million capacity each) and a number of smaller ships on repeat orders, with plenty more in build. I've re-drawn the galaxy map so it is now only 6 movement points from my homeworld to the rinngworld (and I'll soon be reducing the distance from my other oxy-breather homeworlds as well) so I reckon I can have at the very least 2000m on it inside of a hundred turns. I'll be aiming for at least double that.

I'm on turn ~750 now, btw.

Oh, and worldships work very nicely for stellar manip in proportions: You can put one plating and one cabling component on a worldship (with the necessary C&C) and a SY base will construct it in less than 2 years. You can also build it mobile, if your homeworld is nearby. You'll need 5 of these worldships and a ringworld placement generator (on a starbase- 2.7 years, YMMV) for a ringworld. Maybe they need to be more expensive in proportions. Does 2 years seem long enough to build all that?