Kaleva, Songs of Sorcery - 0.87 released
 

Here's my slowly-updating mod, started a long time ago. The original idea was to make a mod based on Kalevala, the Finnish epic. It's since changed into a mod loosely based on Finnish mythology in general.

There are many omissions. It uses Bogarus flag, the nation has no description etc etc. There are some minor changes in the 0.87 version, but the only important ones are that Sampo is now properly unique, and that old saves are now incompatible because I increased the unit numbers to avoid conflicts with other mods (Conceptual Balance 1.3).



Magical access: good Fire, Nature; mediocre Death, Water, Earth (summons); good heroes.

The best mages are young, recruitable anywhere and vulnerable to magic

Troops: Stealthy hiisi (=vaetti) and human infantries and archers, stealthy moose cavalry, fast vanir-like cavalry with magical attack.

Priests: weak, stealthy, all Nature mages can spend gems to cast Fanaticism (Spellsong of the High Heart).

Here's the thread where I originally posted my ideas, if you want to see how the mod developed. It's not that interesting, IMO.

Re: Kaleva, Songs of Sorcery - 0.85 released
 

I'll give it a whirl tonite. Thanks very much.

Re: Kaleva, Songs of Sorcery - 0.85 released
 

Awesome job Endo, it's very much like I imagined it would be after discussing it over the months.
I love all the national spellsongs. Spellsong of the High Heart is great... a battlefield wide Sermon of Courage. And those low protection troops are going to need all the courage they can get. Can't wait to eventually cast Construct Sampo. What exactly does it do?
The troops seem adequate for fighting indies early. I've just used Axemen and Hiisi and moose brothers so far. The axemen seem to be a good cheap meatshield, you can mass Hiisi behind them, and the moose brothers are just awesome. They don't look tough, with the low protection, but I haven't lost one yet (lost a couple of riders), and they have been devastating on attack rear. I'm about to try the light cav. They look interesting.

The mages are probably the highlight of it all though. The spellsingers are the crux of the game, and they do seem quite powerful, though the low MR is something a player will have to take into account and plan for. I also like the little all randoms Sorcerers. I guess you could recruit those without a lab?

The spellsinger sprite seems a little underwhelming, but I'm sure you know how they should look better than I. I had expected something a little more grandiose, but no complaints. Maybe Kristoffer could whip something up if you asked him nicely.

This looks really fun. Thanks for all the hard work you put into this.

Re: Kaleva, Songs of Sorcery - 0.85 released
 

Sampo generates supplies and gems, is a F1 mage and has alchemy bonus (he needs magic to be able to alchemize). You probably need the hero Ilmarinen to make it.




Actually, Kristoffer already whipped up something. To be more precise:

- Spellsinger sprite is LA Ulm Wolfherd.
- Wiseman sprite is from one of the two Vanarus sprites that currently exist.
- Väinämöinen is one of the Ancestor Smiths with different sword, IIRC. Or perhaps EA Ulm Antlered Shamans with the antlers cut off and sword as a weapon.
- Two other heroes are from LA Bogarus and LA Midgård, including magic and parts of the description.
- I think Ilmarinen, the smith-hero, still lacks a sprite. If he still turns up as a naked giant, that's still Kristoffer.
- Sampo sprite is from the Ma Pythium pretender who's carried on a palanquin.
- Näkki is R'lyeh's Shambler Thrall.
- Gnome is Gnome, red cap and all. He's a rare independent mage available from some sites.
- Otso-bears or whatever I called them use one of the existing bear sprites IIRC. Perhaps Fall Bear? They're basically Kithaironic Lions with Great Bear base stats.
- Axeman, Huntsman and the hunter chief sprite are all from the MA Man axeman.
- Hakkapelite sprite is from the DomII Tuatha rider. I don't remember if I edited anything besides the spear; they look quite different without glamour.
- Herdsman sprites are from Deer and Wolf tribals, IIRC. I made the lasso and gave them legs that are in different pose.
- Hiisi and Moose Brothers are Vaetti, or perhaps Bakemono. I'm not sure any more, I made their graphics first. Hiisi sorcerers are Bakemono sorcerers.
- Bear Tribe sprites weren't changed.

Re: Kaleva, Songs of Sorcery - 0.85 released
 

I got Ilmarinen already. He has a nice sprite. Seems like he should have a forge bonus though? He does not.

The almost complete lack of sacreds is a bit bothersome, but if it is thematic, then no problem. Upkeep has not so far been a problem at all.

Ahh, I see the sacreds now. They are summons.

Re: Kaleva, Songs of Sorcery - 0.85 released
 

Wow, I'm liking this more and more. The magic path combos along with the national spells are incredible. The stealth factor is greater than Pangaea's.

I think this nation should go into the game in a future update. It is really unique, and well done.

Re: Kaleva, Songs of Sorcery - 0.85 released
 

I added this thread to the new mod list. It might be a good idea to link the old design thread from the first post, because it could be instructive for interested parties to see how it developed and what was discussed during the desiogn process.

Re: Kaleva, Songs of Sorcery - 0.85 released
 

Sorry that you and I seem to be the only ones interested in this very nice mod Endo. Thanks very much anyway.

Re: Kaleva, Songs of Sorcery - 0.85 released
 

I'm interested, and excited about it-I just can't play it to give an opinion on it.

Re: Kaleva, Songs of Sorcery - 0.85 released
 

> Sorry that you and I seem to be the only ones interested in this very nice mod Endo.

No way!

I'm interested! More than in most mods! I just avoid interfering in your creative processes :)

Re: Kaleva, Songs of Sorcery - 0.85 released
 

Thanks for the kind words! I wouldn't mind little interference, though, if anyone thinks they can offer it.

As an example, I'd like to know if Herdsmen are too weak without helm and shield, if Hakkapelite are as good as I tried to make them, if Moose Brothers are too good for their price and if there are any problems with summons, or with unit descriptions or sprites.

Speaking of descriptions, Jotunheim is pretty close to Pohjola described in Kalevala. When I expand Väinämöinen's description, I'll have to mention that Angerboda sent Tjatse after him when he stole Sampo back from Pohjola. In Kalevala, the crone herself transformed into a giant eagle, but I guess the heroes just made a mistake. :P

I'm somewhat disappointed with myself because I didn't manage to incorporate any Sami mythology in the nation. I might create an EA version, some day, with reindeers, more mobility, shamans transforming into various animals, and perhaps little something from LA Atlantis.

Re: Kaleva, Songs of Sorcery - 0.85 released
 

Interesting mod for sure ! I'll try it with the Kullervo Symphonie as background, or maybe the Tapiola suite ? :)

One strange thing here, I don't know if it's a bug in the mod or a bug in its own :

Re: Kaleva, Songs of Sorcery - 0.85 released
 

Could it be a mod conflict? This mod uses unit nrs 2800 - 2820. I think I'll change them to 3800-3820 before 1.00.

Re: Kaleva, Songs of Sorcery - 0.85 released
 

Could be. My activated mods are :
- Worthy Heroes
- Streamers & standards, Llama's version

But : I've just created a new game without Worthy Heroes and the bug still displays.

[edit]OK, WH disabled + close and re-open the app => no more bug :)[/edit]

Re: Kaleva, Songs of Sorcery - 0.85 released
 

Small typo : the wis-men are also known because they have knowledge etc...

I'm trying the Kaleva with a Titan, just for fun. :cool:

Re: Kaleva, Songs of Sorcery - 0.85 released
 

OK the ! First thoughts on the mod after the initial moves.

I play Kaleva on Bering with a Titan A5 E1 D2 awake. Standard settings, AI difficult (OK, not so difficult :D). As there are no sacred units, I didn't think it was useful to take a sleeping pretender except for scales.

My scales are Dom7 / Sloth2 / Cold1 / Growth2 / Luck2 and the starting income is pretty weak (< 300$) but the troops are cheap.

I plan to use the Titan as researcher in the first place. I buy mainly Moose Brothers at the start, and mages. Mages are powerful, good researchers, the magic research leads me to Alt2 in a few turns thus allowing my Titan to cast Mirror Image, and soon Mistform. For an early game, I'll soon be able to use it on the battle field.

Nevertheless, expansion goes very fast since Moose Brothers are almost invulnerable. Even heavy cavalry hardly wounds them with their Def16. Their Mov24 on the field allows them to butcher any rear/flying unit. Their multiple attacks makes them dreadful opponents to meet. I'm not sure I'll need any other troops than this one

General evaluation for the units I tried : IMHO, Moose Brothers are far too powerful for their prices. They make Kaleva a rush nation and a real super-heavy powerhouse for early game at least. Huntsmen (stealth +35 ! for 35$ + 15res) make scouts of no use as recruitable troops in the capitol. Mages are very cheap also considering that Wisemen & spellsingers are powerful mages & excellent researchers. I've not tried Hakkapelite yet but considering the power of Moose Brothers, I'm not going to buy these guys for a while. Just MB in masses.

I think you could rise the prices for all these units and make most of them capitol only. Maybe give them some weaknesses (lower morale & Gluttony for MB, etc.). But it's still very early game and I'm not an elite player, so this opinion could be re-evaluated by more gurulike forumists.

As for the other aspects : units and description give a good flavour of the Finnish myths (AFAIK and I'm not a specialist...) and I really look forward the further evolution of your mod. Thanks for the work, Endo. :)

Re: Kaleva, Songs of Sorcery - 0.85 released
 

Yes, regrettably, the price on the moose brothers should probably go up. I wouldn't nerf them in any way, just make them more expensive. I did manage to get a few killed... first one vaetti dies, then the second, then you just have a moose that runs away after the battle. Against a real player though, I think you would see some ways to stop them. The AI just doesn't know what to do, as is the case with many powerful units.

The herdsmen are quite weak. I've been using them as a meat shield, but I have to keep going back to a castle and filling up because they die so quickly.

The Hakkapelite are also very good. I stopped making moose brothers after I had enough of them. (partly because the moose brothers were just running over everything in sight). I think they are well balanced for their price. How about a little flame burst when they kick? Would that be hard to do?

Re: Kaleva, Songs of Sorcery - 0.85 released
 

Moose Brothers changed. It seems the shield makes much bigger difference than I thought.
I increased encumberance of first form to 6 and second to 4, removed kick attack from first form and slightly lowered defence on the second form. I also slightly increased resource costs of Hiisi and Moose Brothers.

I think the encumberance change alone does the trick. If not, I can increase their cost or make them capital-only.

I forgot I gave them normal scouts as recruitables. I've given them thematic scouts and sacred hunter-chiefs.

I'll give Herdsmen leather caps. I removed them because I noticed the sprite didn't have them. Lazy me. :P

Flaming hoof would be very simple to do. Hakkapelite actually had flaming hoof attack for some time, but it'd make them cost more, and I decided non-sacred units with no resistances and mr of 10 shouldn't be made too expensive.

Re: Kaleva, Songs of Sorcery - 0.85 released
 

Still working on this Endo? I'd like to test out the revisions.

Re: Kaleva, Songs of Sorcery - 0.85 released
 

Honestly, when I finally get a computer (and I am getting closer), this will be the first mod, other than my own for balancing reasons, that I'll try. It's also inspired me to actually read the Kalevala-something that never really entered into the crosshairs of my perception, before this came out-so you're doing a fantastic job.

Re: Kaleva, Songs of Sorcery - 0.85 released
 

Waiting for inspiration, i.e. more talk on the mod thread. ;)

This is quite a compliment. Thanks!

I think I'll update the unit numbers for the next version. I'll increase all of them by 1000, so that there won't be any complications with old mods (there was that one strange report of a hunter-commander having lots of magic). I'll also do an updated version with old unit-nrs, so that you can continue existing games.

I don't have any new content to add, but I'll do some fine-tuning. The cost-changes mentioned before, proper flag, proper descriptions for the nation and heroes, perhaps some new graphics. If my sprite-making skills have mysteriously improved, Väinämöinen will remind you about Gallen-Kallela's painting about the defence of the Sampo.

Re: Kaleva, Songs of Sorcery - 0.85 released
 

Good luck on the inspirational talk...comments come kind of slow for most mod nations, and helpful ones even slower :) I'm thinking about offering free beer and a buffet over at my threads.

Re: Kaleva, Songs of Sorcery - 0.85 released
 

Hmmm... I downloaded the mod, but trying to run a game as Kaleva crashes Dominions 3. What gives? :(

Re: Kaleva, Songs of Sorcery - 0.85 released
 

You need to tell us what kind of error it gives you. Can't do anything without knowing that.

Re: Kaleva, Songs of Sorcery - 0.85 released
 

I hear you Honey, luckily I have the great and revered Rdonj supporting my thread with loads of balance feedback (which is what I want most)

all hail Rdonj

Re: Kaleva, Songs of Sorcery - 0.85 released
 

I can't get much feedback on mind-I don't know why? Maybe because they're not quite playable yet. I guess that's reasonable, although I'd rather fix problems and tweak things as much as possible *before* I'm done, than after, because it allows me to shift the whole style of the mod, if necessary, to make things fit more smoothly into the theme, rather than trying to patch and shoehorn after it's done.

Oh well.

Re: Kaleva, Songs of Sorcery - 0.85 released
 

Being playable is a definite plus for feedback. It's hard to really get a good feel for a nation without being able to play it, it's much more enjoyable driving your enemies before you than trying to figure out which set of numbers is better than the other. Fixing and tweaking things before they're done is a good approach, but it doesn't leave a lot of room for feedback.

I think the best way to get feedback is to have a good description of the mod, a sprite gallery and detailed updates. And a playable mod, of course. Works for me anyway.


Also, I am not that great :P I am not even entirely sure my feedback is good because I am still a noob. Especially with magic.

Re: Kaleva, Songs of Sorcery - 0.85 released
 

Well, like I said, I do understand it, and I don't honestly expect more feedback than I've gotten-that's hard to get with complete mods-I'm just saying that it's less than I wish it was.

Re: Kaleva, Songs of Sorcery - 0.85 released
 

I would if I could, but there's no error message. The window just disappears, followed by the standard crash reporting thing.

Re: Kaleva, Songs of Sorcery - 0.85 released
 

That'd be the Windows "this program has crashed, do you want to send Microsoft information that might..." crash report, right?

I can't do anything without more information. Have you tried generating the debug log? Run Dominions from a shortcut, and add -dd after c:\path\dom3.exe. If there are spaces in the path, you should add quotes, like this:

"c:\path\dominions 3\dom3.exe" -dd

IIRC, that's how the quotes should be. I can't check it out right now.
EDIT: Oh, and the debug will generate a log.txt file with lots of information. If you don't find anything relevant there, feel free to attach it here, or perhaps to a bug thread.

Re: Kaleva, Songs of Sorcery - 0.85 released
 

I just tried to play a testgame against Kaleva, with Conceptual Balance. Turn 3, Kaleva made a Tomb Lord its prophet. "What Tomb Lord", I thought, and tried wishing for it in my test game. Nope, no such unit. Eh? Then I created a test game with Kaleva and Conceptual Balance, and the sight was... strange. A nation of heroes. Visitor instead of scout, Yakshas and Members of the Shadow League as recruitable units, etc.

I haven't made any further progress, but I'll update the original post with a version in which the unit nrs are in the 3800-range, to avoid complications.

Re: Kaleva, Songs of Sorcery - 0.87 released
 

Any more progress Endo? It was a nice mod.

Re: Kaleva, Songs of Sorcery - 0.87 released
 

Nope, but I have been meaning to "update it very soon" for a long while. I will probably update it, but don't know when.

I will have related schoolwork (Finnish/Baltian/Scandinavian mythology project) this summer, though. I might be able to get extra credit for this mod. :)

Re: Kaleva, Songs of Sorcery - 0.87 released
 

Endo: I'm currently playing this mod with an angle for giving feedback.

Be forewarned. I tend to be pretty blunt.

First, the pros.

Magically speaking, this feels a _lot_ like Shinuyama with Nature magic, and not as good Earth magic. This is good, because there are all kinds of combat spells that the Spellsingers can throw that's pretty funny. The Acid ones stand out in particular.

Militarily, um, I'm not impressed. I haven't tried the Moose Brothers yet, as those are apparently being changed? The Hekka troop is okay, I guess, but not the kind of troop I like to mass. Note this is a statement of preference. The PD is, what, Militia? It's incredibly awful, worse than monkey PD. I wish I had known this before I bought any. I hope this is on the slate for improvement.

The Bear summon, though, is great. These things are like Kithaironic Lions... which are sacred. About the best 'strategy' I can come up with right now is to lay the magical smack-down on my opponents behind a wall of these bears.

Also, the starting fort is... a simple hillfort? I don't understand the balance consideration here. Why do they have such a bad starting fort? This is a rather severe penalty to income at the time in the game that it's hard to offset it with other abilities. Compounded with the fact that most of their mages are non-sacred, and there's a recipe for some really high upkeep here.

I'm off to test the Moose Brothers now.

Update: Moose Brothers are okay, but they'd be better if you kept the Moose. It's rather interesting that Bogarus's flag is used for them, as they feel very similar to Bogarus.

Re: Kaleva, Songs of Sorcery - 0.87 released
 

Hrm. Apparently, I'm not able to edit a message more than once. That's... a bit irritating.

Ah well. Just so you know, I checked MA Ermor's gold production at the start of the game with the same scales as I had for Kaleva. There was a 100g difference. That's the biggest difference possible (Ermor has a Great City), but still, that's quite a handicap Kaleva has.

Re: Kaleva, Songs of Sorcery - 0.87 released
 

There's a half-hour limit on editing unfortunately (except for the first post in each thread which can be edited forever).

Re: Kaleva, Songs of Sorcery - 0.87 released
 

The Bears, BTW, are an incredible unit. I may have lost one (of 16) in a castle siege, with them backed by 3 Spellsingers. I have no real bless (+1 MR this game), and most of the time they're not blessed anyway, but they just don't die. They wander through all kinds of clouds and shrug it off.

They probably should cost more. An Earth-4 Nature-4 Bless probably would make them invulnerable to everything but Astral death spells.

Edit: Thanks for the tip, Llama.

BTW, Endo, it may seem that I'm not very pleased with the mod. That would be very untrue. First, I'm playing it at all. Second, if the graphic were more unique, I don't think I would be able to tell it's a mod. It's just that since I'm trying to give feedback on enhancing the balance of the mod, a lot of what I say may come off as negative.

Re: Kaleva, Songs of Sorcery - 0.87 released
 

No problem, all interest makes me feel a little guilty about not having updated this. I think the guilt level is finally starting to overcome my natural lazyness. :p
I had forgotten the bears, and never really tested them. I thought of Kithaironic Lions, but I didn't intend the bears to become unkillable, just tough frontliners. I think I'll tone down their protection, because the mages can buff them any way.

I don't think I've given them any castles yet, and the PD is just the two first units from the unit roster IIRC.

Re: Kaleva, Songs of Sorcery - 0.87 released
 

Well, if you take away the bears, they don't have much left. Also, they have incredibly bad upkeep problems.

The PD is absolutely awful (Militia and more Militia, AFAICT). Castles have already been covered. (Well, so has the PD, but it's bad enough to be mentioned again.)

So far, with an Earth-4 Nature-6 bless, 4 bears with a commander in support destroys any Independent (on Strength 7). I think a 12 or 13 Prot would probably be fine. Any less and they die too quickly, I think. Where they are at... well, yeah.

Re: Kaleva, Songs of Sorcery - 0.87 released
 

Endo: For the PD, should they be the Hiisi units, or the first two non-Hiisi units (being the Bear Tribe warriors)?

I'll look into the starting castle being something better.

Edit: Endo, I just changed PD (which didn't show up in the .mod file I had) to 1x Bear Tribe Warrior + 1 Hiisi for < 20, and 1 (other) Bear Tribe Warrior + 1 Moose Brother for >= 20. Also, made the starting fort a Fortified City. I'll check to see what happens.

Re: Kaleva, Songs of Sorcery - 0.87 released
 

Endo: The upkeep is a real drag, in the sense that I don't feel like playing with them after the first year or so because the upkeep is so large. I would guess that this is due to the lack of sacred researchers. There's the Shaman, I guess, but he seems... quite lacking compared to the other mages. He also has a research penalty.

Also, the national troops really are subpar. This is below Bogarus-infantry subpar, for me.

I'm trying to figure out a good strategy besides 'spam bears', but so far, I'm not finding it. (It is a very good strategy, though, until the bears are nerfed.)

Re: Kaleva, Songs of Sorcery - 0.87 released
 

Thanks a lot, this really helps me.
I'll try and see how I can improve the infantry, and I'll improve the Shamans as well. I gave him research penalty so that they wouldn't be too good researchers, but I only compared them to other mages this mod adds.
Shamans with Earth also let you summon Gnomes (E2N2 glamour), which gets you Earth Boots and Dwarven Hammers. I don't think they are upkeep-free, though.

Re: Kaleva, Songs of Sorcery - 0.87 released
 

Yes, I know about the Gnomes, and I guess they're okay, except you have to get 16 Earth gems somehow to get the first one. ;)

The Crossbowman is about the only decent unit they have, IMO.

Re: Kaleva, Songs of Sorcery - 0.87 released
 

My current list of Things To Do:

Give them a second, more armored version of the Axeman, similar to Vanheim's hirdman. Hopefully that will give them some staying power in the battlefield, outside of bears.

I've considered whether or not the human cavalry deserves a magical attack for a long time. I think I'll add it (few points of fire damage from the horses' hooves) again.

I'll drop the bears' protection and remove the (1 point) research penalty from Bear Shamans. I might also change leadership values slightly, so that Bear Shamans get ldr 40 and Hiisi Sorcerer's ldr goes from 40 to 10.

I'll try comparing them to CB spells instead of vanilla spells. Perhaps that will be more useful.

I'll drop away at least one of the Bear Tribe warriors, since they're just there to make the unit roster look bigger than it really is.

I'll add castles and PD.

There are also several sites I should add to the Magic Site Mod.

Re: Kaleva, Songs of Sorcery - 0.87 released
 

Looking forward to seeing the new version, Endo. :)

Re: Kaleva, Songs of Sorcery - 0.87 released
 

Thanks for the great feedback Bear, and thanks for working on it again Endo. I look forward to playing it again.

Re: Kaleva, Songs of Sorcery - 0.87 released
 

Ling: Not sure I agree with 'great' there. Besides, I only give feedback when it is specifically requested. I've seen some not very congenial discussions here when that rule isn't followed.

Re: Kaleva, Songs of Sorcery - 0.87 released
 

Initial reaction to my suggestion that I get extra grades for finishing this mod was positive. I still have other schoolwork to do first, but perhaps in a month or so... Sorry for taking so long in getting back to this.

Re: Kaleva, Songs of Sorcery - 0.87 released
 

I'm working on this again. During this week and the following two, I have five days of school, total. I'm writing up some documents, and I'll have to take screenshots from the game and that kind of boring stuff, but pretty soon I'll get to making new sprites and other interesting stuff. I also went to see a Kalevala-themed exhibition in Helsinki (to get some inspiration), and have been reading about early Finnish shamanism again.

I read about a really interesting Scandinavian shamanistic tradition that was also found in Finland: rage-trance. A shaman has a strong "luonto" or "haltija". When you say that something is "in his nature", well, that's the nature where it's in. These shamans rise their spirits high ('olla haltijoissaan', 'nostaa luontoaan'), and then shout and spit and rage and hit things, and may do traditional trance-trickery such as walking through fire, and the book I've been reading compares it to berserkers. Must've been a sight, a wizard running after spirits with an axe in hand, pausing to stomp the ground when his other hand starts shaking on its own! :D

For some reason, reading the book also reminded me of a talk I had with my father when I was younger. I wondered what I could've been if I didn't live in modern times, what with my poor eyesight and introverted nature and poor physique. Matter-of-factly, he told me that I would have been a shaman. :cool:

Re: Kaleva, Songs of Sorcery - 0.87 released
 

Indeed, I think you would have been a Shaman, Endo.

Good luck with finishing the mod.