Recovery vehicles? (Or where's my Scammel?)

[montieth]

Hi, I'm new here. I'm a WWII brit armoured car collector and I've played around abit with forces. The first long game I ran were with modified TO&Es/Staff Tables to reflect a Recce Regiment (well a re-enforced squadron) and I managed to get several of my carriers stuck with mobility failures. I've driven a carrier and I know the problems they can have and I've worked on the tracks an such.

How can you get vehicles unstuck? OR is that just impossible? Is there no recovery capability? Perhaps a vehicle CAN be recovered but remains damaged? Can a vehicle not un-stick itself? I HAVE managed to get a 4 ton armoured car stuck down to the hubs and unstuck all by myself. Had I a crew or a second armoured car to assist, I could have effected the recovery in a few moments with no damage. AS it was, it took several hours of jacking and digging by my personal self. Adding 2-3 people makes such tasks go FAR faster.

A Light Aid Detachment from the REME's is standard in a Recce Regiment so one could call up on the wirelss with a Bluebell request (Bluebell is the REME code sign on the wireless) and get a friendly visit from the attached REMEs to help extract your Armoured Car or Carrier with a dedicated recovery truck. In the light role, this would be a Scammel Pioneer.

Is this just something that needs to be added in carry capability or something else more deep within the code of the game that cannot easily be addressed?

Ryan Gill
Owner Humber Armoured Car
Daimler Ferret Armoured car
M35 2.5 ton truck
Former owner of a Daimler Dingo

[m113apc]

Hi montieth

I asked the same question a while ago.
Check out this tread.
Here you find the answers you are looking for.

Repair vehicle and units

[montieth]

Somewhat. Recovery is something I think should be modeled. If not repair. I ended up with something like 6 carriers immobilized at one point, not having any of the recovery vehicles available, I tried using a 3 tonner to effect a tow, but that didn't work. I'll have to see what makes sense for recovery loads on a scammel pioneer.

[DRG]

At least twice a year we've been getting this request and the answer is and will be always the same. You don't do repair and recovery at the front line in the middle of a battle which is what we are simulating here.

Yes, there will always be exeptions where this has occured in RL but it's not what the game is about. If you get them stuck they stay stuck. Most battles in this game last only a couple hours of "real time"


Don

[iCaMpWiThAWP]

Recovery/repair is REALLY out of the game's scope, or do you think its easy to repair a track under fire with nearly no tools?have you ever tryied to to an M1 ABRAMS out of tons of mud?you need time and the propper equipment to do that, during WW2, the germans left their damaged TIGER TANKS behind, as the ONLY thing that will tow a tiger in a combat situation IS A TIGER,so 2 tigers become useless instead of 1, its not like changing punctured tires...

oops, Don posted while i was digging info about the tigers

[montieth]

Let me add some context here.

I own 2 armoured cars. I've driven and recovered one of them by myself from being bogged down to the hubs. I've also assisted in the recovery of a 5 ton truck with a 2.5 ton truck where the 5 ton was NOT able to get traction.

I'm speaking in the context of basic buddy tows OR light recovery tasks. Unsticking an Abrams from a mud hole where it's up to it's fenders isn't the sum total example of what recovery operations entail. They can be as simple as rolling up with another similar vehicle attaching the two chains/cables to the requisite points and tugging the vehicle out of the problem ground.

Look at some ferrets, humbers, daimlers or carriers other AFVs (wheeled or tracked) in operation and you'll see a tow chain for effecting quick recovery of another vehicle from your troop/platoon/squadron/section which has bogged down.

If you read unit histories you'll find that AFVs are recoverd under fire from the enemy both by the buddy mode and by dedicated recovery vehicles which are armoured however lightly. If you're under fire from harrasing mortar fire OR rifle fire, you can effet a recovery. That's why the US, British and Germans all had armoured recovery vehicles. you're not going to do it while the FEBA is right on top of you unless you're really desparate, BUT you can easily have instances where the FEBA has moved on but there are still some isolated pockets where the enemy hasn't quite stopped taking pot shots.

If you bust a track, that can take time. I have done work on a bren carriers's track in the field so I know what it's like. The crew has everything it needs to do this sort of work, and you're MORE likely to break a track than you are to break a final drive or a drive sproket. When you consider the bigger vehicles though, the amount of forces exerted on those parts means you're just as likely to bust track as you are to break a final drive depending on the daft things your drivers do.

So, I guess the question is, when you're immobilized, that means the vehicle is, for game purposes glued there? Or it means that it cannot move under it's own power? If something CAN be moved to it's location, it can be collected or not?

[iCaMpWiThAWP]

The tank transport unit can tow anything, but in mbt only, i know about the dedicated recovery vehicles, and they usually arent in the frontline

[m113apc]

i know about the dedicated recovery vehicles, and they usually arent in the frontline

I got the answers I was looking for in the tread "Repair vehicle and units", but I have to comment on some of the answers in this tread.

Frontlines do move they are not static.

There may be different way of support in different countries, and how to use them.
I don’t know them all, but I know my own country and organization.

My former battalion (armored) has a combat support company, where different support elements followed the point units, not among the MBTs or IFVs, but close. ARV, mechanic, Medic so on, all armored. We usually was a part of the group led by the second of command in that company, and was sent forward when needed. The support structure would vary from time to time, based on the mission.

I have myself been both mechanic and commander on Leopard 1 ARV and M113 APC, with a mechanic squad. And as a mechanic on different kind of MBTs, IFV and APC, from private to command headquarters, playing all the roles in a process from the executing in HQ to carrying out in the field.

When that is said, our ARV are so called signature material, they are few and juicy targets.

Recovery/repair is REALLY out of the game's scope, or do you think its easy to repair a track under fire with nearly no tools?have you ever tryied to to an M1 ABRAMS out of tons of mud?you need time and the propper equipment to do that, during WW2, the germans left their damaged TIGER TANKS behind, as the ONLY thing that will tow a tiger in a combat situation IS A TIGER,so 2 tigers become useless instead of 1, its not like changing punctured tires...

I totally agree. These kinds of actions are not conducted in the frontline, but behind.
I have been recovered a Leopard1 MBT 100 % drown in mud and march. It took us 48 hours to get it up and to safety. Maybe the hardest job I ever done.
Historically speaking you are also right about the Tiger, there was only the Tiger that could recover the Tiger. And the Germans dint have that many operational Tigers on their frontlines, because of mechanical failures, damaged in battles, moved from place to place to function as fire brigades, where needed etc etc.

But, I also agree with montieth.
Vehicles today and back then had their wires to drag, or be dragged to safety or dragged out of a ditch, or another kind of obstacle.
And there are different kinds of immobilization, from a blown of track or engine breakdown, to minor or more major damage.

But like I said introductorily, I got my answers from my own post about this subject, and I can live without this function in the game.

[JohnHale]

Originally Posted by montieth

Ryan Gill
Owner Humber Armoured Car
Daimler Ferret Armoured car
M35 2.5 ton truck
Former owner of a Daimler Dingo

How about posting some pictures of your toys?

[montieth]

The M35 with a new coat of 383 green (since faded to match the cover) paint. I haven't gotten 'round to adding the black, the tan and the usual markings in black stencils. PTO winch, aftermarket lockout hubs and 1100 singles to raise the road speed and add some body height to it. Rides a little smoother too with bigger tires.
http://www.freakchylde.net/~ryangill...freshpaint.jpg

The ferret at Dragon con a few years ago. Currently down due to the need for repairs. I have to pull the engine to get to a busted brake line. But since one is broken, I really need to rebuild the entire brake line system to be safe which means a fairly heavy bit of work for one person.
http://www.freakchylde.net/~ryangill...gonConTaxi.jpg

The Dingo as it appeared at the Reading Air show a few years ago. Several seasons of re-enacting has left it a bit tatty. It really just needs a new paint job. It runs quite well. At one event I had it, in reverse, in third gear, in a power slide. A fellow who owned a SdKfz 234 replica was in the gunners seat. He had his arms and legs splayed out like a cat about to get a bath. It was fun.
http://www.mindspring.com/~rmgill/br...gowcarrier.jpg

Yours truly driving the Dingo at Reading, in the parade through downtown Reading, PA I believe.
http://picasaweb.google.com/renactr2...93102709756162

I've sold the dingo to another guy in our WWII group. He's Ex Fort Gary Light Horse, so he'll take good care of it.

The big car is the Humber.
This is Jim's gallery. He's one of the 2 other guys that co-owns this project with me.
http://picasaweb.google.com/renactr2...42583050643682
The humber in that gallery that's disassembled is ours. there are several other in that gallery as reference points that aren't ours. I don't think, at this point there are any complete photos of it. It's about to be stuffed into a container for shipment from the restorer in the UK to the US.
There's another gallery showing how it was when we first laid money down on it in the UK several years ago.
http://picasaweb.google.com/renactr2/VANDAL#

If you look around in his gallery, you'll see my Dingo in several from past events and the carriers that used to be in the WWII group. They've gone other ways but several of us have a good bit of time driving them and in rough conditions. We had a training weekend where we took 2 carriers into the woods and maneuvered them around and over some very difficult terrain. So long as you don't high center they're well nigh unstoppable at slow speeds.
http://picasaweb.google.com/renactr2...riersInAction#